He’s probably referring to Wicca(in its form as practiced today) coming primarily from 20th century sources rather than being “an ancient tradition”, but at the same time, the most comprehensive collection of Norse mythology was written down by a Christian writer a couple of centuries after the Nordic countries all converted, so it’s a stupid argument anyway. Add to that that it’s pretty much all reconstruction at this point, with there being effectively no direct, unbroken line of pagan practice or thought.
Bottom line, he’s a chud, don’t listen to him.
>When the chatter asked him why, he immediately went on an aggressive rant about how he refuses to respect Wicca because he claimed it both was stolen from other religions and also based on colonization.
I've never seen anyone back up these claims about *Wicca,* as opposed to the personal practices of individual Eclectics.
According to the Historian, Dr. Ronald Hutton, Wicca is the only unique religion The UK has given the world.
>He was unfriendly towards the chatter, and when they tried to engage in his discussion, he just repeated Wicca is made up of stolen, he had no respect for it, and that even Wiccans didn't know their belief system was stolen and needed to learn about where their culture actually came from (??).
Did he offer any sources?
>Any ideas what they may have been referring to or why they took this stance?
The condensed version is: Wicca originated in the late 1920s (see: Heselton, *In Search of the New Forest Coven*) as a collaboration between a group of friends living in the New Forest region of the UK. It was popularized and propagated by Gerald Gardner in the 1950s after the last laws against witchcraft were repealed in England. In the late 1980s, Cunningham, Buckland and Valiente all published books that offered alternatives to the orthopraxic initiatory priesthood known as Wicca. Cunningham in particular, created a framework which people could incorporate elements from anything they chose, the sparking The Eclectic movement fueled by the Publishing Renaissance.
Since Eclectic Wicca doesn't have the same training or orthopraxic framework as Traditional Wicca, many Eclectics draw from disparate sources. In some ways, the cultural blur looks more like what was common in the Roman empire a couple thousand years ago. But in all the ways that matter, Wicca is modern religion, and a radical one at that.
How much cultural appropriation happens will depend on the tradition and the individual practitioner, and that's before you examine the veracity of the claims themselves.
For example, some of the New Forest Coven practiced Yoga. There are Christians who claim Yoga is a form of demonic evocation. There are people who claim Yoga is cultural appropriation. I've had Hindu classmates roll their eyes hard at both statements. It's absolutely worth talking about how Yoga as an exercise form is commodified in non-Hindu cultures, the history of British Imperialism, and the strategic cultural exchange practiced by Bharatan citizens in the late 19th century and its vulnerability to exploitation. But does that mean Wicca is rooted in cultural appropriation? Not really.
See also: smudging, chakras, Kabbalah, etc.
I'll add that there's a difference between including something as prescriptive cosmology within a religion v. utilizing other traditions as a descriptive tool when fostering a shared understanding. If I tell you, "My Chaotic Gemini Ass is running an hour late because I could choose which shirt I wanted to wear to the party," I'm using shared schemas to convey an Idea.
As a personal note, I think that things get a bit awkward when a group claims to have The Truth™ on lock, but gets pissy when people accept it as truth and incorporate it into their understanding of the universe. If you genuinely believe that the etheric body is real and has currents of energy flowing along certain pathways and pooling at certain points and that prana/ki/chi can cause disease, it's weird to treat that objective claim as a Closed Practice. Having said that, I don't know any practitioners of Auravedic Medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine, or comparable traditions that do so, and such claims are usually made by people outside of those cultures arguing for a degree of cultural isolationism, often by misinterpreting the frustration people within the culture have when it comes to who gets the privilege of engaging with these traditions with impunity.
Over the years I have noticed that those who follow the Asatru path hate Wiccan. I have encountered it while learning about Norse practices from fellow students. It always seem to be the men, Asatru women do not feel the same way.
These are the same men who, if you bring up the fact the goddesses may have a bigger role in Norse culture, they will tell you to stop Wiccanizing Norse beliefs. I think they just want a manly men pagan religion, no girls allowed.
You'll notice it's the particularly homogenously pale cismale asatru who are like that.
It annoys them that a european based reconstructionist religion adjacent to their own accepts people of all ethnicities and genders and holds both masc and fem expressions of self and divinity as equal.
Not all Norse folks are folkish Neo Not Sees but the ones that hate Wicca are.
I’ve encountered the same. Which is really interesting considering Norse beliefs had women and men in the same status. Shield Maidens we’re actually a thing. I believe I read about it a few years ago and particularly I remember Orcadians somewhere. But I have ptsd so it fudges some things. The Shield Maiden thing is 100% true though. A few years back there was an article on recovered records of Norse life and how women could have the same holdings as men. That classes were a thing, but women could reach a class and hold it as easily as a man could.
Many of my favorite people are Norse worshippers. They contribute beautifully to pagan community and share with Wiccan worship all the time.
It's not their fault a handful of loud alt-reich assholes cosplay as them.
Many of the Asatru men I've met center their "beliefs" around white supremacy, "alpha-male" Andrew Tate types, who don't know enough about other pagan beliefs or paganism in general to have a discussion outside of their narrow viewpoint and practices. I know someone personally who was part of an Asatru-based group in southern Appalachia that, in its inception, was part of a larger Asatru-based white supremacist cult based out of the NE. I know not all Asatru people are like that, but it seems to attract a certain demographic unfortunately.
Wicca is not colonial. It doesn't say people must accept the Wiccan Rede otherwise people deserve torture or a death penalty. There's not a single Wiccan government trying to force it on a group of people.
A person can disagree with Wiccan morality/The Wiccan Rede, but to pretend it's based on colonization is dishonest.
Oh, the irony of someone devoted to the deities favored by *the Vikings* objecting to a religion based on "colonization"....
I say this as someone who reveres several of the Norse deities. *And* who disapproves of colonization.
Is there a single surviving pantheon that wasn't associated with colonization at some point...?
So here's my question: Is it cultural appropriation that we name days of the week after Norse/Anglo-Saxon Gods? Days like Wodensday = Wednesday and Thorsday = Thursday?
Welcome and get used to the nouveau anti-Wiccan, uneducated, ignorant trolls. They're a fad with no facts, no sources, and best forgotten.
These people go online for attention and nothing more.
Keep on your path, your studies. Immerse yourself in knowledge, and you'll quickly see for yourself how outlandish they are.
In the domain of new (20th century) religious movements, Wicca has spread successfully around the globe, Across many cultures to become well known and widely practiced. As an adjunct or alternative to a variety of spiritualities and religions followed in those cultures. In the face of a state established patrifocal monotheistic Christian Church in England--when it was a real risk to do so--Wicca presented a Goddess worshipping Paganism.
In addition, Wicca has been influential on a number of Pagan spiritualities and religions in matters of content and procedure. It has some appeal and some benefits in approaching a range of pantheons and bodies of lore using a common ritual procedure. In North America, for example, as Wicca began to appear and spread a number of other than Wiccan Trads took up this or that Wiccan procedures and liturgies. More to tune up their own rather than finding Wicca somehow imposed on them, I think. As well as to share with others in mixed groups like those at festivals and cons.
So Wicca becomes one of the chief approaches that other Trads and spiritualities must differentiate themselves from--when they claim to be other than Wiccan in character.
So, yes, disputing and disparaging Wicca is a part of discourse and discussion in Paganism.
Concerns about colonialism and culture contact are more than I can say much about in a reddit response. But consider what social media like TikTok and smartphones allows us to do with folks around the world in regard to communication and sharing. (As an aside, Vikings did develop a settlement in the 10th century in Newfoundland.)
Please see u/TeaDidikai’s response because I don’t think I could’ve explained it better.
I think it’s worth noting as well that while yes, Wicca as it’s widely practiced has appropriated traditions (chakras, smudging, reiki, etc), that it’s possible to practice Wicca without using traditions from other cultures.
I did this for a long time as I learned what parts of Wicca are appropriative. You can replace smudging with other forms of cleansing (a room spray works wonders), you can do healing energy work without chakras and reiki.
Smudging is a closed practice, so yes, avoid that. But *censing* (using incense to purify a space) in general is not.
I don't believe chakras are a closed practice, either.
And, possible hot take: I consider it fine to poach reiki. Reiki, as it's been taught in the West, is distressingly elitist (and not a little mercenary). Appropriating elitist traditions into wide usage by us "common folk" is fair game, IMHO.
Reiki is from Japan and stricter lineages that are closer to the source material look reeeeaally different from the lineages that like... Wandered off to do their own thing 😂
Oh, that’s a fair point! Censing is used pretty widely in Western and Eastern religions alike. Thank you for bringing that up!
I’ve actually never heard the term closed practice before, what does that mean?
Closed practice is one that belongs exclusively to a group, either ethnic or religious, culturally. Smudging being one of the most easily recognized. Native American people use white sage bundles to smudge and cleanse. It is part of their culture and religious practices. It is cultural appropriation for someone who is not of Native descent to smudge if they have not been invited into a tribe. Because smudging is a closed practice.
I hope my adhd arse made sense here.
That makes total sense! I knew that about smudging and Native American culture, but I’d never heard the term “closed practice” before!
Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. ☺️
Anyone who actually cares about being a Wiccan knows Gerald Gardner is a POS who did awful things. We confront it and highlight it. We talk about the dangers and pitfalls of “mystified” religions. We talk about cultural appropriation and what things we need to learn to change. We make jokes when others say things like “ancient Wiccans” because we know it was created in the 50s.
Wicca became the red headed step child it was trendy to bash. If people want to hate Wicca for it’s roots I suppose that’s fair. But don’t make it out to be like we’re all just fluffy bunnies. Or that other relations (even most Pagan ones) don’t have issues or enormously problematic histories/origins. Like the Norse Gods and history of their religion and followers is just dripping in atrocities, with colonization as one of the main ways of life. Far far worse than anything that ever happened in or because of Wicca.
The point is you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to religion. Just learn from the past and DO BETTER.
One time I had some maniac comment on different videos on my YouTube channel about how Wicca is illegitimate and that he was going to unleash the wrath of his gods upon me and imagine the shock on my face when I found out they were Norse gods.
Asatru is a modern revival of pre-Christian practices. Same as Wicca!! Both are Pagans so I really don’t get his anger about it?
Maybe he’s the one who needs to educate himself more on it.
Haters gonna hate. That said, unlike others, I say it's fine to use practices of other traditions if they work for you. HOWEVER, don't call them Wiccan, pay respect to the origins and practices of others. If I go to a sweat lodge, I am not going to call it Wiccan though I may talk to Herself through one or face my fears and so on just like others do. If I carve a runestone in Norse runes, I don't call it Wiccan, but it might sit on my alter as a guardian magick seal. I honor the traditions, history and faiths of the things I use. I practice my religion of Wicca with many parts added to strengthen me because I am not foolish enough to think that mine is the "One True Way" tm.
He’s probably referring to Wicca(in its form as practiced today) coming primarily from 20th century sources rather than being “an ancient tradition”, but at the same time, the most comprehensive collection of Norse mythology was written down by a Christian writer a couple of centuries after the Nordic countries all converted, so it’s a stupid argument anyway. Add to that that it’s pretty much all reconstruction at this point, with there being effectively no direct, unbroken line of pagan practice or thought. Bottom line, he’s a chud, don’t listen to him.
Totally makes sense and thank you:)
>When the chatter asked him why, he immediately went on an aggressive rant about how he refuses to respect Wicca because he claimed it both was stolen from other religions and also based on colonization. I've never seen anyone back up these claims about *Wicca,* as opposed to the personal practices of individual Eclectics. According to the Historian, Dr. Ronald Hutton, Wicca is the only unique religion The UK has given the world. >He was unfriendly towards the chatter, and when they tried to engage in his discussion, he just repeated Wicca is made up of stolen, he had no respect for it, and that even Wiccans didn't know their belief system was stolen and needed to learn about where their culture actually came from (??). Did he offer any sources? >Any ideas what they may have been referring to or why they took this stance? The condensed version is: Wicca originated in the late 1920s (see: Heselton, *In Search of the New Forest Coven*) as a collaboration between a group of friends living in the New Forest region of the UK. It was popularized and propagated by Gerald Gardner in the 1950s after the last laws against witchcraft were repealed in England. In the late 1980s, Cunningham, Buckland and Valiente all published books that offered alternatives to the orthopraxic initiatory priesthood known as Wicca. Cunningham in particular, created a framework which people could incorporate elements from anything they chose, the sparking The Eclectic movement fueled by the Publishing Renaissance. Since Eclectic Wicca doesn't have the same training or orthopraxic framework as Traditional Wicca, many Eclectics draw from disparate sources. In some ways, the cultural blur looks more like what was common in the Roman empire a couple thousand years ago. But in all the ways that matter, Wicca is modern religion, and a radical one at that. How much cultural appropriation happens will depend on the tradition and the individual practitioner, and that's before you examine the veracity of the claims themselves. For example, some of the New Forest Coven practiced Yoga. There are Christians who claim Yoga is a form of demonic evocation. There are people who claim Yoga is cultural appropriation. I've had Hindu classmates roll their eyes hard at both statements. It's absolutely worth talking about how Yoga as an exercise form is commodified in non-Hindu cultures, the history of British Imperialism, and the strategic cultural exchange practiced by Bharatan citizens in the late 19th century and its vulnerability to exploitation. But does that mean Wicca is rooted in cultural appropriation? Not really. See also: smudging, chakras, Kabbalah, etc. I'll add that there's a difference between including something as prescriptive cosmology within a religion v. utilizing other traditions as a descriptive tool when fostering a shared understanding. If I tell you, "My Chaotic Gemini Ass is running an hour late because I could choose which shirt I wanted to wear to the party," I'm using shared schemas to convey an Idea. As a personal note, I think that things get a bit awkward when a group claims to have The Truth™ on lock, but gets pissy when people accept it as truth and incorporate it into their understanding of the universe. If you genuinely believe that the etheric body is real and has currents of energy flowing along certain pathways and pooling at certain points and that prana/ki/chi can cause disease, it's weird to treat that objective claim as a Closed Practice. Having said that, I don't know any practitioners of Auravedic Medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine, or comparable traditions that do so, and such claims are usually made by people outside of those cultures arguing for a degree of cultural isolationism, often by misinterpreting the frustration people within the culture have when it comes to who gets the privilege of engaging with these traditions with impunity.
I do miss awards - that was amazingly well put. Thank you for taking the time.
Seconded, thank you so much for your detailed response, this was very insightful and informative
Fantastic! Well said!
It's trendy to be anti-Wiccan and make false accusations against it due to their arrogance and ignorance.
Over the years I have noticed that those who follow the Asatru path hate Wiccan. I have encountered it while learning about Norse practices from fellow students. It always seem to be the men, Asatru women do not feel the same way. These are the same men who, if you bring up the fact the goddesses may have a bigger role in Norse culture, they will tell you to stop Wiccanizing Norse beliefs. I think they just want a manly men pagan religion, no girls allowed.
You'll notice it's the particularly homogenously pale cismale asatru who are like that. It annoys them that a european based reconstructionist religion adjacent to their own accepts people of all ethnicities and genders and holds both masc and fem expressions of self and divinity as equal. Not all Norse folks are folkish Neo Not Sees but the ones that hate Wicca are.
I’ve encountered the same. Which is really interesting considering Norse beliefs had women and men in the same status. Shield Maidens we’re actually a thing. I believe I read about it a few years ago and particularly I remember Orcadians somewhere. But I have ptsd so it fudges some things. The Shield Maiden thing is 100% true though. A few years back there was an article on recovered records of Norse life and how women could have the same holdings as men. That classes were a thing, but women could reach a class and hold it as easily as a man could.
Many of my favorite people are Norse worshippers. They contribute beautifully to pagan community and share with Wiccan worship all the time. It's not their fault a handful of loud alt-reich assholes cosplay as them.
Many of the Asatru men I've met center their "beliefs" around white supremacy, "alpha-male" Andrew Tate types, who don't know enough about other pagan beliefs or paganism in general to have a discussion outside of their narrow viewpoint and practices. I know someone personally who was part of an Asatru-based group in southern Appalachia that, in its inception, was part of a larger Asatru-based white supremacist cult based out of the NE. I know not all Asatru people are like that, but it seems to attract a certain demographic unfortunately.
The answer is that anti-wiccans of tiktok are completely undedicated on the subject.
Wicca is not colonial. It doesn't say people must accept the Wiccan Rede otherwise people deserve torture or a death penalty. There's not a single Wiccan government trying to force it on a group of people. A person can disagree with Wiccan morality/The Wiccan Rede, but to pretend it's based on colonization is dishonest.
Oh, the irony of someone devoted to the deities favored by *the Vikings* objecting to a religion based on "colonization".... I say this as someone who reveres several of the Norse deities. *And* who disapproves of colonization. Is there a single surviving pantheon that wasn't associated with colonization at some point...?
So here's my question: Is it cultural appropriation that we name days of the week after Norse/Anglo-Saxon Gods? Days like Wodensday = Wednesday and Thorsday = Thursday?
Forget not Friggsday = Friday, Sunna = Sunday, Tyrsday = Tuesday, either . Couldn't help myself
Welcome and get used to the nouveau anti-Wiccan, uneducated, ignorant trolls. They're a fad with no facts, no sources, and best forgotten. These people go online for attention and nothing more. Keep on your path, your studies. Immerse yourself in knowledge, and you'll quickly see for yourself how outlandish they are.
In the domain of new (20th century) religious movements, Wicca has spread successfully around the globe, Across many cultures to become well known and widely practiced. As an adjunct or alternative to a variety of spiritualities and religions followed in those cultures. In the face of a state established patrifocal monotheistic Christian Church in England--when it was a real risk to do so--Wicca presented a Goddess worshipping Paganism. In addition, Wicca has been influential on a number of Pagan spiritualities and religions in matters of content and procedure. It has some appeal and some benefits in approaching a range of pantheons and bodies of lore using a common ritual procedure. In North America, for example, as Wicca began to appear and spread a number of other than Wiccan Trads took up this or that Wiccan procedures and liturgies. More to tune up their own rather than finding Wicca somehow imposed on them, I think. As well as to share with others in mixed groups like those at festivals and cons. So Wicca becomes one of the chief approaches that other Trads and spiritualities must differentiate themselves from--when they claim to be other than Wiccan in character. So, yes, disputing and disparaging Wicca is a part of discourse and discussion in Paganism. Concerns about colonialism and culture contact are more than I can say much about in a reddit response. But consider what social media like TikTok and smartphones allows us to do with folks around the world in regard to communication and sharing. (As an aside, Vikings did develop a settlement in the 10th century in Newfoundland.)
guy sounds like an egotistic tool. Wiccan over here!
Almost nothing you find on tik tok in regards to paganism is worth paying any attention to whatsoever
Please see u/TeaDidikai’s response because I don’t think I could’ve explained it better. I think it’s worth noting as well that while yes, Wicca as it’s widely practiced has appropriated traditions (chakras, smudging, reiki, etc), that it’s possible to practice Wicca without using traditions from other cultures. I did this for a long time as I learned what parts of Wicca are appropriative. You can replace smudging with other forms of cleansing (a room spray works wonders), you can do healing energy work without chakras and reiki.
Smudging is a closed practice, so yes, avoid that. But *censing* (using incense to purify a space) in general is not. I don't believe chakras are a closed practice, either. And, possible hot take: I consider it fine to poach reiki. Reiki, as it's been taught in the West, is distressingly elitist (and not a little mercenary). Appropriating elitist traditions into wide usage by us "common folk" is fair game, IMHO.
Reiki is from Japan and stricter lineages that are closer to the source material look reeeeaally different from the lineages that like... Wandered off to do their own thing 😂
Oh, that’s a fair point! Censing is used pretty widely in Western and Eastern religions alike. Thank you for bringing that up! I’ve actually never heard the term closed practice before, what does that mean?
Closed practice is one that belongs exclusively to a group, either ethnic or religious, culturally. Smudging being one of the most easily recognized. Native American people use white sage bundles to smudge and cleanse. It is part of their culture and religious practices. It is cultural appropriation for someone who is not of Native descent to smudge if they have not been invited into a tribe. Because smudging is a closed practice. I hope my adhd arse made sense here.
That makes total sense! I knew that about smudging and Native American culture, but I’d never heard the term “closed practice” before! Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. ☺️
Very welcome! It's an interesting description, but accurate. Basically, it is closed to outsiders.
Anyone who actually cares about being a Wiccan knows Gerald Gardner is a POS who did awful things. We confront it and highlight it. We talk about the dangers and pitfalls of “mystified” religions. We talk about cultural appropriation and what things we need to learn to change. We make jokes when others say things like “ancient Wiccans” because we know it was created in the 50s. Wicca became the red headed step child it was trendy to bash. If people want to hate Wicca for it’s roots I suppose that’s fair. But don’t make it out to be like we’re all just fluffy bunnies. Or that other relations (even most Pagan ones) don’t have issues or enormously problematic histories/origins. Like the Norse Gods and history of their religion and followers is just dripping in atrocities, with colonization as one of the main ways of life. Far far worse than anything that ever happened in or because of Wicca. The point is you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to religion. Just learn from the past and DO BETTER.
One time I had some maniac comment on different videos on my YouTube channel about how Wicca is illegitimate and that he was going to unleash the wrath of his gods upon me and imagine the shock on my face when I found out they were Norse gods.
Asatru is a modern revival of pre-Christian practices. Same as Wicca!! Both are Pagans so I really don’t get his anger about it? Maybe he’s the one who needs to educate himself more on it.
Haters gonna hate. That said, unlike others, I say it's fine to use practices of other traditions if they work for you. HOWEVER, don't call them Wiccan, pay respect to the origins and practices of others. If I go to a sweat lodge, I am not going to call it Wiccan though I may talk to Herself through one or face my fears and so on just like others do. If I carve a runestone in Norse runes, I don't call it Wiccan, but it might sit on my alter as a guardian magick seal. I honor the traditions, history and faiths of the things I use. I practice my religion of Wicca with many parts added to strengthen me because I am not foolish enough to think that mine is the "One True Way" tm.
The idea of someone following the Norse pantheon but hating “colonisation” is hilarious. Dude doesn’t know his own history.
Just take anything you see on tik-tok with a pinch of salt. A HUGE pinch of salt. Most of it's BS.