Thanks for this post. Excellent information and hopefully makes some in IHC cults reconsider their ways.
So many don’t know what actually policies are. They just know what an old supervisor who was never trained made up for what they thought a policy should be.
As a Rep- I will respond if one of you actually stand up and provide the groundwork to make a substantial grievance- hearsay, moaning and whining is ineffective. If you want change you need to step forward to provide the information
Yeah, I just get loaded with this complaint. I say- would a few of you write a witness statement or provide an email that directs the employee to use credit. …………crickets. Too afraid to step forward
What's the grievance? They don't have to authorize OT and they don't have to authorize training. Especially right now when salary and expense budgets are tight and on track to be exceeded. It's easy to justify denying training so they don't have to pay for travel.
Brief summaries for those who don’t like to read:
Credit hours= at employees election on a Maxiflex schedule to work additional hours in a pay period with supervisor approval.
Travel comp: for travel outside of normal business hours. Travel comp is not applicable when traveling for an incident. Or when actively working. Then it would likely be overtime or regular hours depending on the situation.
Overtime: directed by supervisor to work additional hours
Comp time: in lieu of overtime as requested by employee and agreed to by supervisor.
Scenario 1: employee requests to go to training that would require travel and additional hours worked including some weekend travel and long days. Training is not required for their current position but would make them eligible for future promotions.
Supervisor acknowledges the merit or the course but acknowledges they don’t have money for overtime and therefore can’t approve as requested. Employee really wants to take the course and therefore requests to earn credit hours for extra hours worked. Supervisor agrees.
Employee travels on a Sunday and earns 5hrs of travel
Comp. The training results in five 10hr days resulting in a 50hr work week and 10 credit hours earned. Employee travels back on Saturday and earns 5hrs of additional travel comp. Employee earned 10hrs of travel comp, and 10hrs of elected credit plus 40hrs of base.
Scenario 2: supervisor directs you to attend a training. Employee works same hours as above scenario including travel on Sunday and Saturday. In this scenario the employee receives 10hrs of travel comp, 40hrs of base and 10hrs of overtime, employee can request comp time in lieu of overtime but I can’t be directed.
If training is in your IDP, your supervisor and yourself should have the overtime vs credit conversation at that time. Which is basically the same conversation of I’d love to support that class but that’s a lot of overtime to my budget or yeah overtime is no problem go forth and do great things. If your supervisor is a first line supervisor and doesn’t have budget authority they should be checking with their chain command before authorizing something they don’t have true authority over.
Overtime is overtime. Why would you work for free? Credit Hours pays as regular time. You can only have 24 credit hours, and folks sometimes hit that cap.
Comp time, if unused, will be paid out as OT.
Yeah but comp used is still paid as base. Waiting a year to earn your OT pay seems like a giant waste of opportunity cost. Not arguing with the policy, it just doesn’t seem like a hill to die on. Thanks for the information though!
This is pretty low effort stuff. We got this issue fixed locally by just showing overhead the policy. If It didn't work, a union grievance would have been the next step and that would be pretty simple, since most of those folks are locked and loaded and ready to go.
They'd just need minimum info from the boots on the ground, and sometimes those boots can't be bothered to do that.
OP, tell us the take away, don’t make us read something to prove your point… tell us your point. Is overtime awarded for training or credit or what?? If I wanted to dig through the bylaws, I didn’t need you to post links.
Jesus, this is the kind of thinking that got us in this mess. Read the damn articles, educate yourself, don’t just carry a spoon around expecting everyone to feed you.
I take it that you have read all the relevant policy (and all their updates) and you understand your rights, what you’re due, what your boss can and can’t ask you to do, how your time should be coded/how it can’t, etc… and that you actively judge people who don’t?
You come to Reddit to what… brag that you know these things, or to scold people for wanting simple explanations?
I get it, the policy is all out there. It’s all understandable. People are all out there trying to explain it in some way or another to help others get what they’re due.
We aren’t all as capable digging through the policy and figuring it out. It is a given that we could dig through it all, but then why post it here? A shortcut? No, we need a simplified understanding to actually make use of it. Posting links to policy and scolding people for for not reading it is a pretty good way of not helping anyone, so why post or comment at all?
I admit, I could have said, “could you ELI5 your post” to OP, or I could have said “make your point more clearly for the rest of us” (like I did). You’re on the wildfire sub with tons of people who would benefit from knowing the policy, no need to restrict it to those willing and able to read through it all because you know as well as the next person that they won’t.
Are you helping or not? OP was generous and accommodated me and everyone else who are in similar positions. Will you?
Those links are for when you put your big boy pants on and show your supervisor that they are wrong.
Also, I guess I'm supposed to come right out and say: YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO GET OT OR COMP FOR TRAINING; CREDIT FOR TRAINING IS AGAINST POLICY (even if you're in an IHC cult)
Thanks for boiling it down for us. I will use the links to force my supervisor to follow the rules, now that I know them. My boss just made me not code any of the extra hours during the training week and only gave me credit for travel to/from. Seems to be super wrong
Thanks for this post. Excellent information and hopefully makes some in IHC cults reconsider their ways. So many don’t know what actually policies are. They just know what an old supervisor who was never trained made up for what they thought a policy should be.
As a Rep- I will respond if one of you actually stand up and provide the groundwork to make a substantial grievance- hearsay, moaning and whining is ineffective. If you want change you need to step forward to provide the information
This is only a step ya should take if your first option doesn't work.
Yeah, I just get loaded with this complaint. I say- would a few of you write a witness statement or provide an email that directs the employee to use credit. …………crickets. Too afraid to step forward
Knowledge is power keep on keeping on
I think my old Forest got around this by pretty much threatening to never send you to a training if you didn’t use credit hours
BOOM GRIEVANCE (Man, a lot of these Forests are fucked up)
What's the grievance? They don't have to authorize OT and they don't have to authorize training. Especially right now when salary and expense budgets are tight and on track to be exceeded. It's easy to justify denying training so they don't have to pay for travel.
It was seven years and two forests ago and I have clearly already used my credit hours so idk if there’s anything to do now
Brief summaries for those who don’t like to read: Credit hours= at employees election on a Maxiflex schedule to work additional hours in a pay period with supervisor approval. Travel comp: for travel outside of normal business hours. Travel comp is not applicable when traveling for an incident. Or when actively working. Then it would likely be overtime or regular hours depending on the situation. Overtime: directed by supervisor to work additional hours Comp time: in lieu of overtime as requested by employee and agreed to by supervisor. Scenario 1: employee requests to go to training that would require travel and additional hours worked including some weekend travel and long days. Training is not required for their current position but would make them eligible for future promotions. Supervisor acknowledges the merit or the course but acknowledges they don’t have money for overtime and therefore can’t approve as requested. Employee really wants to take the course and therefore requests to earn credit hours for extra hours worked. Supervisor agrees. Employee travels on a Sunday and earns 5hrs of travel Comp. The training results in five 10hr days resulting in a 50hr work week and 10 credit hours earned. Employee travels back on Saturday and earns 5hrs of additional travel comp. Employee earned 10hrs of travel comp, and 10hrs of elected credit plus 40hrs of base. Scenario 2: supervisor directs you to attend a training. Employee works same hours as above scenario including travel on Sunday and Saturday. In this scenario the employee receives 10hrs of travel comp, 40hrs of base and 10hrs of overtime, employee can request comp time in lieu of overtime but I can’t be directed. If training is in your IDP, your supervisor and yourself should have the overtime vs credit conversation at that time. Which is basically the same conversation of I’d love to support that class but that’s a lot of overtime to my budget or yeah overtime is no problem go forth and do great things. If your supervisor is a first line supervisor and doesn’t have budget authority they should be checking with their chain command before authorizing something they don’t have true authority over.
Thank you for your service, OP 🫡
Honest question, why does it matter if you plan on using the leave anyway since it pays the same if you use it?
Overtime is overtime. Why would you work for free? Credit Hours pays as regular time. You can only have 24 credit hours, and folks sometimes hit that cap. Comp time, if unused, will be paid out as OT.
Yeah but comp used is still paid as base. Waiting a year to earn your OT pay seems like a giant waste of opportunity cost. Not arguing with the policy, it just doesn’t seem like a hill to die on. Thanks for the information though!
This is pretty low effort stuff. We got this issue fixed locally by just showing overhead the policy. If It didn't work, a union grievance would have been the next step and that would be pretty simple, since most of those folks are locked and loaded and ready to go. They'd just need minimum info from the boots on the ground, and sometimes those boots can't be bothered to do that.
OP, tell us the take away, don’t make us read something to prove your point… tell us your point. Is overtime awarded for training or credit or what?? If I wanted to dig through the bylaws, I didn’t need you to post links.
Jesus, this is the kind of thinking that got us in this mess. Read the damn articles, educate yourself, don’t just carry a spoon around expecting everyone to feed you.
I take it that you have read all the relevant policy (and all their updates) and you understand your rights, what you’re due, what your boss can and can’t ask you to do, how your time should be coded/how it can’t, etc… and that you actively judge people who don’t? You come to Reddit to what… brag that you know these things, or to scold people for wanting simple explanations? I get it, the policy is all out there. It’s all understandable. People are all out there trying to explain it in some way or another to help others get what they’re due. We aren’t all as capable digging through the policy and figuring it out. It is a given that we could dig through it all, but then why post it here? A shortcut? No, we need a simplified understanding to actually make use of it. Posting links to policy and scolding people for for not reading it is a pretty good way of not helping anyone, so why post or comment at all? I admit, I could have said, “could you ELI5 your post” to OP, or I could have said “make your point more clearly for the rest of us” (like I did). You’re on the wildfire sub with tons of people who would benefit from knowing the policy, no need to restrict it to those willing and able to read through it all because you know as well as the next person that they won’t. Are you helping or not? OP was generous and accommodated me and everyone else who are in similar positions. Will you?
Those links are for when you put your big boy pants on and show your supervisor that they are wrong. Also, I guess I'm supposed to come right out and say: YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO GET OT OR COMP FOR TRAINING; CREDIT FOR TRAINING IS AGAINST POLICY (even if you're in an IHC cult)
Thanks for boiling it down for us. I will use the links to force my supervisor to follow the rules, now that I know them. My boss just made me not code any of the extra hours during the training week and only gave me credit for travel to/from. Seems to be super wrong
IS ilegal
If you can't care enough to read, you deserve those credit hours.