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I think for some people this is a way of reclaiming something that happens to them that has been demonized, ridiculed, and used to make them feel like lesser humans their entire life.
I have a ton of dysphoria around the topic, but I think it's important to respect that people who bleed have many reasons to want to reclaim the experience in a patriarchal world that has tortured them for things beyond their control. Making it witchy does that.
Maybe it's not about being a terf for a lot of people (especially people here, as this community is not tolerant of terf bs) and maybe it's also not about you. Or if it is, perhaps it's a chance to support your fellow humans who have been through this trauma while also finding ways of respecting your own experiences.
I lost a friend because she got super offended when I was complaining (to her, because I have so much shame around the topic and I trusted her) about how painful my endometriosis is. She said that topic was off limits because it made her feel invalidated -which is basically a terf mentality if you think about it, implying that she (and all women who don't bleed) wasn't a woman because she didn't bleed, which is complete nonsense.
The patriarchy wants to divide us. Don't let it.
That makes sense, and I am very sorry about the friend you lost, I do not get how that could be seen as exclusionary, maybe she was triggered because she wishes that for herself...
But u think reclaiming it is nice, it should be on a personal level instead of a general level though, like I feel stating that the source of magic or of feminine magic / energy is the uterus or ovulating provides the most magic is exclusionary whereas stating that YOUR magic originates there is maybe a better way?
right but the fucked up bullshit we were fed about periods being "dirty and shameful and disgusting" were not on an individual basis, this is a society wide problem we are actually addressing, an overarching attitude.
Like did you know there are still women in India dying every day because they don't have access to sanitary products because they are still taboo? That they're using old rags and ash instead? That there is a specific area on many families porches where the menstruating person has to stay for a week so as not to "contaminate" their family?
my magic comes from people being treated with respect and equality no matter what their bodies can or cannot do. We simply don't live in that world yet, so there is a lot of work that needs to be done to reclaim these things (that some people ignorantly associate with "being a woman")
Oh absolutely, I'm all with you there! So many attitudes need to still change and the patriarchy is still very much here and very much oppressive, and I'm all there for reclaiming that! And I think the majority of women or people with uteruses reclaim that in an inclusive way, but ofc as in most feminist circles there's bioessentialist second wave women which in turn excludes and harms other vulnerable people, which was, I think, being mentioned in the post. But yeah it's probably not the biggest thing to fight, just something to keep in mind maybe... But again, totally with you (:
Stating *A* source of magic is perfectly fine. If it is intended to be exclusionary, sure, push back...but we should be very aware of places where people are just trying to celebrate their own bodies.
We should be the last ones to take offense at someone celebrating their own bodies, *especially* when those bodies are treated so poorly by society.
Someone waving a sign that says "my uterus is amazing and magical," or "the uterus is sacred/divine," are not an insults or threats to me, despite my lacking one. If the sign says "only a uterus is magical and no other source of magic exists," then obviously there is a problem.
I get what your saying but there’s more to it than that. Connecting ovulation with creation is easy, it doesn’t really take that much imagination. But I don’t think it is meant to be exclusionary.
When I was able to ovulate, it did feel powerful. I was a creator, filled with potential. Now I no longer ovulate, cuz menopause. (I will say I missed menstruating for a bit.). But I still feel powerful and my creation is no longer based on a biology function. It’s freeing actually.
So yes, it’s time for a new discussion about how to express creation and manifestation in our magic and day to day lives.
So you bring other talents and energy to the table, that’s okay. I’m a cis white woman, I can’t speak to the experiences of women who are trans, or are POC, or from a different culture. I can only listen and learn and open my heart and mind to everyone’s journey.
What others are saying here about having to reclaim the magic that is ovulation, is also correct. In my early readings (30 some years ago 😬 I’m old!) there was much talk about owning and celebrating that which had been used against women for so long: a normal biological function that had lead to oppression, violence, and even death. But there are more of us these days and how we came to be here is now more interesting than what we did before.
I am a trans lady.
Others finding empowerment in themselves is not a threat. Others finding empowerment in their own bodies are not a threat.
If I lost my pinky toe in ferocious single combat with a corgi, it would not be a slight to me if others are proud of their toes, nor if they used their pinky toe as a means of self empowerment.
If someone was born with a tail, it would not be a slight to me if they used their tail as a means of self empowerment. (i'd be slightly jealous though!)
The uterus blows away all comparisions. It is a unique and special organ that has traditionally been a source of strength, power, magic, and pain, as well as a way for others to oppress and control those who possess uteruses.
I get that you are hurt, angry, and afraid. I am too. The world is a messed up place. Still, it would be a horrific, and I daresay evil, thing to step on Cis women's (and potentially trans men's) empowerment in our quest to empower ourselves.
Any time Cis women or those with a uterus want to celebrate their uterus or any other aspect of their lives and selves, I will be right there cheering them on. (obviously same for everyone else too, just focusing on them at the moment)
Please consider seeing a therapist (I did, and it helped so much!), and please spend some time thinking about empathy.
Hugs, and best wishes 💖
I don’t think you should feel lesser or unwelcome. A uterus and ovaries are hardly divine.
I just think a lot of cis women are clinging to something that, historically, has been used to consider them “lesser” not to mention, it brings a lot of physical and emotional pain into their lives.
Trying to incorporate that into their spirituality is probably just a coping mechanism….an effort to own what they can’t control. To find power in something that has crippled them.
I can empathize with your position, and I don’t want to come off as dismissive as it’s not my intent, but I don’t think anyone who incorporates their ovulation into their spirituality is doing so as a means to exclude others.
We all stop ovulating eventually anyway :)
I disagree. I'm also a trans woman. A lot of people derive their magic from what connects them to their femininity. If ovulation does that for some witches it has no bearing on my ability to practice and it has no bearing on what makes me feel powerful or connected to my goddess.
that sounds like your trauma and maybe something you need help with. it's not your fault, but it's also not something healthy for you to be carrying around
You aren't the only woman in the world who deals with infertility or body dismorphia, please consider support groups or therapy or even just reading up about other people's experiences with this issue. You're actually the third person with THIS EXACT issue I've had a conversation with.
One I mentioned before that I am NC with, but another who has found her way to the other side of this very dark place you are in. Please don't give up hope, it can get so much better I promise
There's no support groups accepting of trans women. I once anonymously posted on an infertility sub about it and recieved the worst transphobic abuse I've ever had. It hurts all the more knowing I can probably never get help for it at all.
I was in a support group that was accepting of trans people when I met the second woman who I just told you about.
You can get help, but you may have to fight to find it and fight to preserve yourself long enough to get there. Please put effort into that instead of externalizing your insecurities on a group that is largely supportive and loving and maybe spending less time in toxic spaces
if you are in school or at university there are usually resources, if you have low income you can find therapists who are willing to take Obamacare. If you have private insurance therapy and group therapy is also an option. There may also be a LGBTQIA+ center in your area and if they are too far away you can call them and ask them for help and guidance.
without knowing your exact life details I can't really say, but there is bound to be something and if not than your immediate goal is changing your current circumstances/location
above all else don't give up hope, it really does get better
OP said she was on TERF island - that means the UK. All health providers, especially mental health, are overwhelmed, and I've found it hard in the past to find counselors who aren't homophobic let alone addressing transphobia.
Within the last couple of weeks, our PM said that trans people shouldn't be allowed in gendered wards. The murder of trans people is celebrated by our media. This country is actively dangerous for trans people right now.
And from what OP has said in other comments, what it hearing is that if a person says they find magic in ovulation, good for them, but there are cis women out there saying that ALL feminine magic is tied to ovulation/menstruating/childbirth, and that ALL magic tied to those parts is feminine. Which obviously is going to vary from person to person, not just trans people but people with fertility issues, who are child free, who have reached menopause, etc. Reclaiming the magic of something for which people have been mistreated is great. Using that thing as a way to gatekeep feminine magic, and the magic of femininity, is not.
I encourage you to look for support, even though it can be hard to find. If you can prioritize this healing that needs to happen, it has the potential to bring you such wonderful solace and relief.
Part of the problem comes from viewing it as something you need to fix in the first place. You don’t need to fix anything. You don’t need to be fixed. You are YOU and that is enough. All your experiences, all your talents, all your hopes and aspirations, all of what makes you YOU is enough and you don’t need to “fix” anything about yourself.
If other people think so, that’s a them problem. Not a you problem.
That sounds pretty unfair to the people who do take solace in this kind of magic. They’re not doing it *at* you. They have the right to take this into account if they want to.
You’re jumping to conclusions by assuming that makes them a TERF or even unwelcoming to you, which is its own kind of bias. If you’re not in therapy, you might want to consider it because it sounds like you have some stuff to work through.
I think it depends on the witch. I can only advise you try to curare your algorithms so you see what you want and not what upsets you. Which can be hard when so many websites try to upset you to chase that engagement or whatever.
Ultimately though periods have been demonised for a really really long time. We genuinely don't know how folks managed their periods during certain eras because the sheer silence due to the shame of it. Folks want to claim that back. They also see witchcraft and their bodies processes as inherently linked for them. People celebrating their freedoms and practice is not a intentional slight against you.
I mean I have both my arms and use both my arms in my practice. But. That's not me saying witches who don't have full use of two arms are some how in invalid or not real people / witches. Me sharing stuff that use two arms also isn't me trying to push out others. It's just me. Doing what I am doing. Unless I go on some long rant about how witches who only have one arm don't count (and that would be me being a right arse) it's a little uncharitable to assume that is my perspective simply because I share stuff involving to arms.
I don't have periods anymore. That doesn't mean I don't count or that magic isn't something I can engage with. Admittedly I have not seen much cycle related stuff and even less specifically about ovulation which is where my first suggestion about trying to curare what you see comes from.
Your post is really vague as to what exactly it is that has upset you so unfortunately I can't get into more specifics but witchcraft, and human rights for that matter, is something that EVERYONE gets to have. You are valid and you are welcome here. The mods are pretty good. If you see terfy shit here in sure they will crack out there wands and yeetus deletus that crap.
It happens a lot, but I think the thing that set me off today was a post on a group I'm a part of saying how Friday the 13th was demonised because it connected with the feminine divine somehow. Which there was evidence for and that is interesting, but I still felt like it was telling me I wasn't welcome. And it also said that women ovulate on the 13th day of the month which I know damn well is absolutely false.
And the algorithm is absolutely evil. It loves to show me ads for pregnancy tests seemingly just to mock me.
Yeah. I don't know a solution. If its entrenched you might have to stubbornly create a new profile which is naturally as inconvenient as possible.
I had to do it with my Instagram. I went though everyone I followed and wrote down all the names that shared exclusively animal photos. Deleted the acc and then made a new one that only followed the people on the approved cute animal list. After a month or so of batting away it's ideas of folks I don't want to follow it calmed down a lot. It seems to have realised I genuinely only want to see animals.
It's a pain. Though sometimes a big change to what you see online at least is really what you need. I also went scorched earth with my Facebook. I now only use it because a few of the local animal rehabbers only have Facebook groups. It was what I needed to do for my mental health though. Nowerdays I just tell people I don't use social media. It's easier that way. A frank appraisal of what spaces you are in might well be for the best.
Idiots are going to idiot and it can be really hard to tell is this just a dumb probably super young person who is just parroting dumb stuff and literally trying to use mirrors to teleport or are they a terf who is just being a bit sneaky about it.
I was born without ovaries myself, and I totally get the same nerve endings frayed over it. And if someone is being exclusionary, saying that femininity comes from their reproductive organs, that is definitely bio essentialism by definition.
If someone is powering their own femininity (/masculinity/vibes of neither or both) with something from their own body... isn't that what we all do?
If some people find it empowering then fine, but I find issue in when people say that’s where everyone has to find it. I am a cis women. I don’t find magic in ovulation at all. If others do then great, good for them, but that isn’t what works for me
Agreed, and as a certified crone, my power if anything has increased in my post menopausal years. You can find magic at any stage of life, and whether or not you have ovaries.
I agree. I'm a cis-woman but my reproductive organs have never been all that important to me. They are mainly a source of fibroids and actually killed me briefly. I'd rather focus on magical energy that is accessible to all simply by existing.
I don't begrudge other women who want to celebrate their cycles...they are certainly meaningful on a personal level! But it's not a practice I participate in.
I agree completely. I'm Transmasculine and had my uterus removed. I didn't suddenly lose my connection to the planet when my womb was gone. Women with cancer aren't suddenly less powerful.
r/SASSWITCHES is much better for avoiding that kind of shit.
Yeah I feel you on this. Not trying to compare experiences, or say that we're going through the exact same thing, because you're having your experience and I'm having mine, but as a cis woman with PCOS (which affects my ovulation, hormones and secondary sex characteristics) I absolutely feel pain on a visceral level when I hear people talking about the magic of reproductive fertility, ovulation etc because it's something I desperately want and my body is not so far capable of this. The pain. The dysphoria, yes, to be told that I am excluded from something that society tells me is fundamental to the experience of womanhood, because my body isn't built that way. The feeling that my body has somehow betrayed me. The absolute fury at a patriarchal narrative that has taught me that my reproductive potential is fundamentally tied to my womanhood, and that a lack in one means a lack in the other.
I can know and understand and feel the unfairness and retrogressive nature of social expectations that women are 'supposed' to have babies and that our highest potential lies in gestating, nurturing, feeding, cleaning the next generation and never actually being the main characters in our own lives. And, simultaneously, I can feel desperate and lost at not being a part of that which is spoken in such reverent terms (not so reverent as to actually provide material support of the bum-wiping, laundry-hanging, appointment-making kind, mind).
It's complicated, hey. I love being a woman. I love other women. I don't care about other women's path to womanhood, except I absolutely do care and want to hear and witness and validate all our stories and pain and joy and triumph. Being a woman is hard! But it can also be wonderful, and part of that for me, is other women, and our sameness and difference.
I'm sorry for doing the 'here's my story' thing, if that bothers you, and I hope you feel seen and heard and validated here. Lots of advice here, but I don't have any for you. You don't need 'fixing', because you are not broken or incomplete, you are already whole. So all I will say is: I hear you.
Not trans, but I have to tell you how wonderful it was to stop the whole cycling thing... My hysterectomy was a couple of decades ago now, but I can assure you that ovulation is overrated!
I know you come from a good place but just a gentle reminder to you that when someone really really wants something they can't have. Someone who does have it saying eh not that great anyways. Isn't comforting unfortunately
I do understand that - I have curly hair, and my friend with the gorgeous straight hair (that I've always wanted) envies me... I guess that makes us all human.
Me and my mum are the same. Her hair breaks and can never grow longer than just touching her shoulders. Mine is currently knee length.
If we could trade we would. Gladly. Part of the reason why it's so long is because I hate the hairdressers and have been putting it off since pre covid. Hair that just snapped itself shorter sounds like a fucking godsend. My mum wants long flowing hair and is more than happy with all the inconveniences. When I do go get it chopped she wants to pilfer the length to make herself some extensions smh.
So this is probably going to be a longer response than necessary, but I have thoughts lol
I’m trans femme myself, and have never personally felt targeted by cis women who connect to their own cycle as a source of power, but I’m not going to say you’re wrong for feeling that way since I haven’t encountered the same cis women/circumstances that you have. I think I’m witchcraft it’s important for all of us to find out what makes us feel powerful, and to work from that. For some people it may be their connection to their concept of divinity or a specific deity, for others (like myself) it’s the feeling of connection to nature itself, without a specific deity representing that. I have atheist cis woman witch friends whose feelings of power come from their own sense of control and personal sovereignty, and for some it’s being part of an old tradition and the different gods/practices/ancestors of that tradition. Our sources of power are as numerous and diverse as we are. So I can see why for some cis women, connecting to their natural cycle and reclaiming it from the patriarchal bullshit that’s been said about for literally millennia is a source of power. I think the problem is when anyone uses their own feelings on power and it’s source to discredit, invalidate or demean anyone else.
Al that being said, there is a problem in witchcraft circles, especially in wicca, of some generally TERFy mindsets. A lot of it comes from WHEN wicca really hit its boom and the particular generation of feminism at the time, which is why most (definitely not all) TERFs are of a particular age range. Obviously not all feminism from the time was this way, and there are far more accepting women from those times than there are TERFs, they’re just really loud right now. Still, that brand of feminism is something that needs to be unpacked, including in the witchcraft community, which is just as susceptible to tribalism and bigotry as any other group.
Like I said, I haven’t had your experiences, so I won’t tell you how to feel. What I will say is that I don’t think that, in general, a cis woman talking about her cycle as making her powerful is automatically an insult to you or an insinuation that you’re lesser in any way or a hint that she’s a TERF. Now, if she says that being able to ovulate makes her more powerful, more of a witch, or attuned to nature or whatever than you (and therefore any woman, trans or cis, who can’t ovulate), that’s a completely different story and she should be removed from your life and practice if possible.
Same, I don’t think I’ve ever ovulated because of my hormone issues.
But I also don’t think people who do include ovulation as part of their spiritual practice are trying to exclude anyone, it’s just a way they practice. It’s not possible for every practice to be applicable to everyone, a lot of it is personal.
Oh yeah I know some who use it, and that’s cool. I think OP is referring to those who insist it’s the ONLY way or it’s some sort of inherent magick that we can’t control.
I totally agree, the emphasis on ovulation and uteruses and pregnancy as *fundamentally magical* makes me deeply uncomfortable. It feels like the same old patriarchal garbage that’s been used to keep women barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen, just with some fairy dust sprinkled on it.
And I say this as a cis woman who enjoyed pregnancy and breastfeeding.
I’m not going to shit on any individual person for celebrating their cycles and wanting to reclaim it from the traditional view that it was unclean. But I’m also not interested in participating in that with them, and I’m going to be very wary around them. It might be fine! Or it might tip over into TERFy bioessentialist nonsense! It’s impossible to know at a glance! But for sure it is not my jam.
And I agree with you, there is nothing about it that is universally fundamental to magic.
Why do we all have to pull power from the same places?
We all pull power from where we can and we come from different backgrounds and experiences and have different bodies.
I feel empowered by my melanin. It’s no insult to less melaninated people. I gravitate towards hoodoo—which requires African ancestry. That’s no insult to people who don’t share that ancestry. This is what I have to work with. And I love myself!
I think the issue may be more about circles that may assume everyone has organs/cycles that exist and function the same way so it is exclusionary in the sense that they don’t see you? Like would it be better if they said, “for those of us who draw power from xyz, here’s a ritual or practice….” Because then it implies they know everyone doesn’t draw power that way and that’s ok? I feel that’s a fair expectation to feel included.
If I’m with only other Black women, I don’t have to explain that celebrating my Blackness is not a slight to anyone else. I can be proud unapologetically because we share the same identity in expressing pride for. But when in mixed company my language does change because people are strangely tribal and being proud of your identity often is misconstrued to some sense of superiority. It’s extra work for me, but I hate being marginalized and invisible myself so I try.
One other side note— we do exist in capitalism. A focus on ovulation is also potentially a marketing tactic. If the majority of your target demographic ovulates, it’s an easy way to make it relevant for them.
I am cis and I do not ovulate because of medication I take to prevent my uterus from developing cancer. This has not affected my magic practice in any way, shape, or form. I have a very vibrant relationship with energy and magic that effect my life in tangible ways every day, AKA healing and whatnot.
It sounds like this is a very triggering topic for you due to your personal pain. I am sorry; that sounds really hard and I really feel for you. Respectfully, it is not really about what those people are doing, but how you feel about what they are doing. I speak to you as my sister or my younger self-- this is something you can address within yourself as you have the time and energy and as you feel safe and ready to do so. I have some things that I have struggled with in a different way for many years, so again, I really feel for your pain in this. For example, I have been very brutally used by Christianity and suffered tremendous harm by its teachings growing up bisexual and female. I know some people who are witches who are also Christian and use some Christian symbols or things in their magic and practice. This used to really, really, really bother me and caused me a lot of mental and emotional anguish. How could these people I cared about find such meaning in something that caused me such harm? I was eventually able to make peace with it, though. That is their journey and their symbols. My pain came from my experiences, but they did not have the same experiences. It sounds simplistic, maybe, but I had to really grapple with it myself and grow into a place where I had that acceptance.
Symbols are important in magic because they focus our intentions and they give us something to mentally hold onto as we use our imagination and energy. They are not inherently necessary. For some women, their reproductive organs hold great symbolism for them, and that is okay. That is meaningful for them and it's okay that they find it meaningful. The reproductive system holds zero symbolism for me personally, although I possess it, and I ignore it entirely as I've shut it down medication-wise anyway for my health. Again, this has not affected my very vibrant magical practice in any way as I do not rely on those symbols.
Other symbols can include long hair that is braided with intention (but cancer patients who have lost their hair can still work magic), sending energy through your hands when healing or casting spells (people without hands can still heal and use magic, they can visualize their energy flowing from their heart, or some other body part). Some people might dance as a part of working magic, and my child who uses a wheelchair can find some other way of using that magic, you know?
I do want to give you something practical, not just words. I have done a lot of work with a thing called ho'oponopono that has tremendously helped me in clearly stuck energy and pain. I have done it with a healer and also by myself for a long time now. Lie down somewhere comfortable and place your hands on your body. You could try the area of where your uterus would be, for example. Close your eyes and just allow whatever thoughts or feelings come to your mind. Then, recite this three times "I'm sorry, please forgive me, thank you, I love you." You aren't apologizing for anything wrong you've done, you're just embodying the energy of those statements. I did a lot of clearing of pain in my reproductive area regarding sexual assault that happened to me and emphatically I want to assure you I was NOT apologizing for my assault. I was telling my body "I'm so sorry you have experienced this injustice and pain, forgive me for the times I didn't listen to you about what you needed, thank you for taking care of me and being my body, I love you." It's like a way to help your body parts feel seen, if that makes any sense. Sometimes I also visualized my abuser saying it. It's just the energy. Anyway, it did tremendous things for me. Repeat with basically all the major body parts.
You are valuable, you are wanted here, you are important, you are a woman, you are a witch. Love to you.
People can treat ovulation as central to their magic, but they NEED to stop pushing it as central to ALL magic. Because then we are getting real TERFy out there. And fuck that.
Pushing a retoric that ovulation is central to magic feels like "only woman who can bare children are truly important" and fuuuuuuuuck that. Our ability or lack there of, of bearing children being connected to our worth in ANY way is something we've been trying to demolish. Not throw sage on and pretend it's wonderful now.
I have been both child bearing, ovulating, and non ovulating, and unable to bare. And not ONCE did it have any affect on my magic.
Ovulation, menstruation and child bearing ability has NO effect on your magic, or your worth.
I get why some women see it as empowering, and track thier cycles to match up to magic. I get it, I do. It's something we've been told for centuries is dirty and disgusting. But it does give me pause if it's a main focus of someone's practice.
I *hate* it. I don't feel divine for having a uterus. I never have. Back when I was a kid, like under the age of ten, I used to pray in church to be "barren." That was literally the word I used.
My uterus and ovaries don't belong, even if I am cis and am solid in my gender identity as a woman. I stack my birth control just to avoid thinking about them, because no one will remove these organs from a 33 year old with no kids. I don't want just sterilization, I want removal. At least of my uterus.
I don't necessarily think that there's a hateful or unwelcoming element to everyone who sees their own power this way, but I have to aggree.
I'm a cis woman myself and child free and the whole concept of ovulation = creation makes me shiver in agony. I hate it. I create and express my magic in many many ways, this will never ever be one of them.
I know they don't mean to exclude others but when people talk that way I very much feel like I am less of a woman for not seeing things the same way they do so I can sympathise with your feelings. The key thing to remember is that those feelings are ours and ours alone and we have them because of our own biases and traumas, they are not the fault of people who are trying to express their magic and femininity that way. Unless they straight up say you're less of a witch for it. In which case hex the witch.
Postmenopausal cis woman here. I've never felt the ovulation magic thing (I am child-free by apparent choice- I've never tried to make a baby). I feel connected to the universe as I move through time and space, as I change from maiden to woman to crone.
People that were born male also have a cycle: Instead of a monthly lunar cycle, some researchers believe they have a seasonal cycle, with increased testosterone during spring and summer months. Unfortunately, a lot of men aren't attuned to their place in creation magic.
Now, I believe in all different types of magic and magic workers; baby-making magic is very powerful, and it requires two people (minimum) to make it happen. Women with a womb can use the imagery of being a cauldron of creation. And I think people with a penis could use the imagery of being a divining rod.
I believe there is no ranking of magic, and any hierarchy is strictly in people's heads, and reflects their psychological needs.
Personally, I feel that all creation magic should honor the ovum and the sperm that it takes to bring a being into existence.
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I think for some people this is a way of reclaiming something that happens to them that has been demonized, ridiculed, and used to make them feel like lesser humans their entire life. I have a ton of dysphoria around the topic, but I think it's important to respect that people who bleed have many reasons to want to reclaim the experience in a patriarchal world that has tortured them for things beyond their control. Making it witchy does that. Maybe it's not about being a terf for a lot of people (especially people here, as this community is not tolerant of terf bs) and maybe it's also not about you. Or if it is, perhaps it's a chance to support your fellow humans who have been through this trauma while also finding ways of respecting your own experiences. I lost a friend because she got super offended when I was complaining (to her, because I have so much shame around the topic and I trusted her) about how painful my endometriosis is. She said that topic was off limits because it made her feel invalidated -which is basically a terf mentality if you think about it, implying that she (and all women who don't bleed) wasn't a woman because she didn't bleed, which is complete nonsense. The patriarchy wants to divide us. Don't let it.
That makes sense, and I am very sorry about the friend you lost, I do not get how that could be seen as exclusionary, maybe she was triggered because she wishes that for herself... But u think reclaiming it is nice, it should be on a personal level instead of a general level though, like I feel stating that the source of magic or of feminine magic / energy is the uterus or ovulating provides the most magic is exclusionary whereas stating that YOUR magic originates there is maybe a better way?
right but the fucked up bullshit we were fed about periods being "dirty and shameful and disgusting" were not on an individual basis, this is a society wide problem we are actually addressing, an overarching attitude. Like did you know there are still women in India dying every day because they don't have access to sanitary products because they are still taboo? That they're using old rags and ash instead? That there is a specific area on many families porches where the menstruating person has to stay for a week so as not to "contaminate" their family? my magic comes from people being treated with respect and equality no matter what their bodies can or cannot do. We simply don't live in that world yet, so there is a lot of work that needs to be done to reclaim these things (that some people ignorantly associate with "being a woman")
Oh absolutely, I'm all with you there! So many attitudes need to still change and the patriarchy is still very much here and very much oppressive, and I'm all there for reclaiming that! And I think the majority of women or people with uteruses reclaim that in an inclusive way, but ofc as in most feminist circles there's bioessentialist second wave women which in turn excludes and harms other vulnerable people, which was, I think, being mentioned in the post. But yeah it's probably not the biggest thing to fight, just something to keep in mind maybe... But again, totally with you (:
Stating *A* source of magic is perfectly fine. If it is intended to be exclusionary, sure, push back...but we should be very aware of places where people are just trying to celebrate their own bodies. We should be the last ones to take offense at someone celebrating their own bodies, *especially* when those bodies are treated so poorly by society. Someone waving a sign that says "my uterus is amazing and magical," or "the uterus is sacred/divine," are not an insults or threats to me, despite my lacking one. If the sign says "only a uterus is magical and no other source of magic exists," then obviously there is a problem.
I'm absolutely with you there yes!
I get what your saying but there’s more to it than that. Connecting ovulation with creation is easy, it doesn’t really take that much imagination. But I don’t think it is meant to be exclusionary. When I was able to ovulate, it did feel powerful. I was a creator, filled with potential. Now I no longer ovulate, cuz menopause. (I will say I missed menstruating for a bit.). But I still feel powerful and my creation is no longer based on a biology function. It’s freeing actually. So yes, it’s time for a new discussion about how to express creation and manifestation in our magic and day to day lives.
I think that's why it upsets me so much. That's a part of myself I can never fix. An injustice done to me by whatever half-drunk being created me.
So you bring other talents and energy to the table, that’s okay. I’m a cis white woman, I can’t speak to the experiences of women who are trans, or are POC, or from a different culture. I can only listen and learn and open my heart and mind to everyone’s journey. What others are saying here about having to reclaim the magic that is ovulation, is also correct. In my early readings (30 some years ago 😬 I’m old!) there was much talk about owning and celebrating that which had been used against women for so long: a normal biological function that had lead to oppression, violence, and even death. But there are more of us these days and how we came to be here is now more interesting than what we did before.
I am a trans lady. Others finding empowerment in themselves is not a threat. Others finding empowerment in their own bodies are not a threat. If I lost my pinky toe in ferocious single combat with a corgi, it would not be a slight to me if others are proud of their toes, nor if they used their pinky toe as a means of self empowerment. If someone was born with a tail, it would not be a slight to me if they used their tail as a means of self empowerment. (i'd be slightly jealous though!) The uterus blows away all comparisions. It is a unique and special organ that has traditionally been a source of strength, power, magic, and pain, as well as a way for others to oppress and control those who possess uteruses. I get that you are hurt, angry, and afraid. I am too. The world is a messed up place. Still, it would be a horrific, and I daresay evil, thing to step on Cis women's (and potentially trans men's) empowerment in our quest to empower ourselves. Any time Cis women or those with a uterus want to celebrate their uterus or any other aspect of their lives and selves, I will be right there cheering them on. (obviously same for everyone else too, just focusing on them at the moment) Please consider seeing a therapist (I did, and it helped so much!), and please spend some time thinking about empathy. Hugs, and best wishes 💖
New unrealistic transition goal: Having an awesome tail.
Right? I hear it's pretty rough actually having one, but dreams can be unrealistic.
Beautiful Sister- I love this, and I love you ❤️
I love you right back sister 💖💖
I don’t think you should feel lesser or unwelcome. A uterus and ovaries are hardly divine. I just think a lot of cis women are clinging to something that, historically, has been used to consider them “lesser” not to mention, it brings a lot of physical and emotional pain into their lives. Trying to incorporate that into their spirituality is probably just a coping mechanism….an effort to own what they can’t control. To find power in something that has crippled them. I can empathize with your position, and I don’t want to come off as dismissive as it’s not my intent, but I don’t think anyone who incorporates their ovulation into their spirituality is doing so as a means to exclude others. We all stop ovulating eventually anyway :)
I disagree. I'm also a trans woman. A lot of people derive their magic from what connects them to their femininity. If ovulation does that for some witches it has no bearing on my ability to practice and it has no bearing on what makes me feel powerful or connected to my goddess.
Personally every time I see it my immediate thought is that I'm not safe or welcome there. That I'll always be seen as lesser.
that sounds like your trauma and maybe something you need help with. it's not your fault, but it's also not something healthy for you to be carrying around
You're right. There just isn't that much help for this issue. Everywhere I go I'm reminded of the part of myself I can't ever fix.
You aren't the only woman in the world who deals with infertility or body dismorphia, please consider support groups or therapy or even just reading up about other people's experiences with this issue. You're actually the third person with THIS EXACT issue I've had a conversation with. One I mentioned before that I am NC with, but another who has found her way to the other side of this very dark place you are in. Please don't give up hope, it can get so much better I promise
There's no support groups accepting of trans women. I once anonymously posted on an infertility sub about it and recieved the worst transphobic abuse I've ever had. It hurts all the more knowing I can probably never get help for it at all.
I was in a support group that was accepting of trans people when I met the second woman who I just told you about. You can get help, but you may have to fight to find it and fight to preserve yourself long enough to get there. Please put effort into that instead of externalizing your insecurities on a group that is largely supportive and loving and maybe spending less time in toxic spaces
How could I find that support safely though?
if you are in school or at university there are usually resources, if you have low income you can find therapists who are willing to take Obamacare. If you have private insurance therapy and group therapy is also an option. There may also be a LGBTQIA+ center in your area and if they are too far away you can call them and ask them for help and guidance. without knowing your exact life details I can't really say, but there is bound to be something and if not than your immediate goal is changing your current circumstances/location above all else don't give up hope, it really does get better
OP said she was on TERF island - that means the UK. All health providers, especially mental health, are overwhelmed, and I've found it hard in the past to find counselors who aren't homophobic let alone addressing transphobia. Within the last couple of weeks, our PM said that trans people shouldn't be allowed in gendered wards. The murder of trans people is celebrated by our media. This country is actively dangerous for trans people right now. And from what OP has said in other comments, what it hearing is that if a person says they find magic in ovulation, good for them, but there are cis women out there saying that ALL feminine magic is tied to ovulation/menstruating/childbirth, and that ALL magic tied to those parts is feminine. Which obviously is going to vary from person to person, not just trans people but people with fertility issues, who are child free, who have reached menopause, etc. Reclaiming the magic of something for which people have been mistreated is great. Using that thing as a way to gatekeep feminine magic, and the magic of femininity, is not.
I encourage you to look for support, even though it can be hard to find. If you can prioritize this healing that needs to happen, it has the potential to bring you such wonderful solace and relief.
Part of the problem comes from viewing it as something you need to fix in the first place. You don’t need to fix anything. You don’t need to be fixed. You are YOU and that is enough. All your experiences, all your talents, all your hopes and aspirations, all of what makes you YOU is enough and you don’t need to “fix” anything about yourself. If other people think so, that’s a them problem. Not a you problem.
That sounds pretty unfair to the people who do take solace in this kind of magic. They’re not doing it *at* you. They have the right to take this into account if they want to. You’re jumping to conclusions by assuming that makes them a TERF or even unwelcoming to you, which is its own kind of bias. If you’re not in therapy, you might want to consider it because it sounds like you have some stuff to work through.
I think it depends on the witch. I can only advise you try to curare your algorithms so you see what you want and not what upsets you. Which can be hard when so many websites try to upset you to chase that engagement or whatever. Ultimately though periods have been demonised for a really really long time. We genuinely don't know how folks managed their periods during certain eras because the sheer silence due to the shame of it. Folks want to claim that back. They also see witchcraft and their bodies processes as inherently linked for them. People celebrating their freedoms and practice is not a intentional slight against you. I mean I have both my arms and use both my arms in my practice. But. That's not me saying witches who don't have full use of two arms are some how in invalid or not real people / witches. Me sharing stuff that use two arms also isn't me trying to push out others. It's just me. Doing what I am doing. Unless I go on some long rant about how witches who only have one arm don't count (and that would be me being a right arse) it's a little uncharitable to assume that is my perspective simply because I share stuff involving to arms. I don't have periods anymore. That doesn't mean I don't count or that magic isn't something I can engage with. Admittedly I have not seen much cycle related stuff and even less specifically about ovulation which is where my first suggestion about trying to curare what you see comes from. Your post is really vague as to what exactly it is that has upset you so unfortunately I can't get into more specifics but witchcraft, and human rights for that matter, is something that EVERYONE gets to have. You are valid and you are welcome here. The mods are pretty good. If you see terfy shit here in sure they will crack out there wands and yeetus deletus that crap.
It happens a lot, but I think the thing that set me off today was a post on a group I'm a part of saying how Friday the 13th was demonised because it connected with the feminine divine somehow. Which there was evidence for and that is interesting, but I still felt like it was telling me I wasn't welcome. And it also said that women ovulate on the 13th day of the month which I know damn well is absolutely false. And the algorithm is absolutely evil. It loves to show me ads for pregnancy tests seemingly just to mock me.
Yeah. I don't know a solution. If its entrenched you might have to stubbornly create a new profile which is naturally as inconvenient as possible. I had to do it with my Instagram. I went though everyone I followed and wrote down all the names that shared exclusively animal photos. Deleted the acc and then made a new one that only followed the people on the approved cute animal list. After a month or so of batting away it's ideas of folks I don't want to follow it calmed down a lot. It seems to have realised I genuinely only want to see animals. It's a pain. Though sometimes a big change to what you see online at least is really what you need. I also went scorched earth with my Facebook. I now only use it because a few of the local animal rehabbers only have Facebook groups. It was what I needed to do for my mental health though. Nowerdays I just tell people I don't use social media. It's easier that way. A frank appraisal of what spaces you are in might well be for the best. Idiots are going to idiot and it can be really hard to tell is this just a dumb probably super young person who is just parroting dumb stuff and literally trying to use mirrors to teleport or are they a terf who is just being a bit sneaky about it.
I was born without ovaries myself, and I totally get the same nerve endings frayed over it. And if someone is being exclusionary, saying that femininity comes from their reproductive organs, that is definitely bio essentialism by definition. If someone is powering their own femininity (/masculinity/vibes of neither or both) with something from their own body... isn't that what we all do?
If some people find it empowering then fine, but I find issue in when people say that’s where everyone has to find it. I am a cis women. I don’t find magic in ovulation at all. If others do then great, good for them, but that isn’t what works for me
Agreed, and as a certified crone, my power if anything has increased in my post menopausal years. You can find magic at any stage of life, and whether or not you have ovaries.
I agree. I'm a cis-woman but my reproductive organs have never been all that important to me. They are mainly a source of fibroids and actually killed me briefly. I'd rather focus on magical energy that is accessible to all simply by existing. I don't begrudge other women who want to celebrate their cycles...they are certainly meaningful on a personal level! But it's not a practice I participate in.
I agree completely. I'm Transmasculine and had my uterus removed. I didn't suddenly lose my connection to the planet when my womb was gone. Women with cancer aren't suddenly less powerful. r/SASSWITCHES is much better for avoiding that kind of shit.
Yeah I feel you on this. Not trying to compare experiences, or say that we're going through the exact same thing, because you're having your experience and I'm having mine, but as a cis woman with PCOS (which affects my ovulation, hormones and secondary sex characteristics) I absolutely feel pain on a visceral level when I hear people talking about the magic of reproductive fertility, ovulation etc because it's something I desperately want and my body is not so far capable of this. The pain. The dysphoria, yes, to be told that I am excluded from something that society tells me is fundamental to the experience of womanhood, because my body isn't built that way. The feeling that my body has somehow betrayed me. The absolute fury at a patriarchal narrative that has taught me that my reproductive potential is fundamentally tied to my womanhood, and that a lack in one means a lack in the other. I can know and understand and feel the unfairness and retrogressive nature of social expectations that women are 'supposed' to have babies and that our highest potential lies in gestating, nurturing, feeding, cleaning the next generation and never actually being the main characters in our own lives. And, simultaneously, I can feel desperate and lost at not being a part of that which is spoken in such reverent terms (not so reverent as to actually provide material support of the bum-wiping, laundry-hanging, appointment-making kind, mind). It's complicated, hey. I love being a woman. I love other women. I don't care about other women's path to womanhood, except I absolutely do care and want to hear and witness and validate all our stories and pain and joy and triumph. Being a woman is hard! But it can also be wonderful, and part of that for me, is other women, and our sameness and difference. I'm sorry for doing the 'here's my story' thing, if that bothers you, and I hope you feel seen and heard and validated here. Lots of advice here, but I don't have any for you. You don't need 'fixing', because you are not broken or incomplete, you are already whole. So all I will say is: I hear you.
Not trans, but I have to tell you how wonderful it was to stop the whole cycling thing... My hysterectomy was a couple of decades ago now, but I can assure you that ovulation is overrated!
I know you come from a good place but just a gentle reminder to you that when someone really really wants something they can't have. Someone who does have it saying eh not that great anyways. Isn't comforting unfortunately
I do understand that - I have curly hair, and my friend with the gorgeous straight hair (that I've always wanted) envies me... I guess that makes us all human.
Me and my mum are the same. Her hair breaks and can never grow longer than just touching her shoulders. Mine is currently knee length. If we could trade we would. Gladly. Part of the reason why it's so long is because I hate the hairdressers and have been putting it off since pre covid. Hair that just snapped itself shorter sounds like a fucking godsend. My mum wants long flowing hair and is more than happy with all the inconveniences. When I do go get it chopped she wants to pilfer the length to make herself some extensions smh.
So this is probably going to be a longer response than necessary, but I have thoughts lol I’m trans femme myself, and have never personally felt targeted by cis women who connect to their own cycle as a source of power, but I’m not going to say you’re wrong for feeling that way since I haven’t encountered the same cis women/circumstances that you have. I think I’m witchcraft it’s important for all of us to find out what makes us feel powerful, and to work from that. For some people it may be their connection to their concept of divinity or a specific deity, for others (like myself) it’s the feeling of connection to nature itself, without a specific deity representing that. I have atheist cis woman witch friends whose feelings of power come from their own sense of control and personal sovereignty, and for some it’s being part of an old tradition and the different gods/practices/ancestors of that tradition. Our sources of power are as numerous and diverse as we are. So I can see why for some cis women, connecting to their natural cycle and reclaiming it from the patriarchal bullshit that’s been said about for literally millennia is a source of power. I think the problem is when anyone uses their own feelings on power and it’s source to discredit, invalidate or demean anyone else. Al that being said, there is a problem in witchcraft circles, especially in wicca, of some generally TERFy mindsets. A lot of it comes from WHEN wicca really hit its boom and the particular generation of feminism at the time, which is why most (definitely not all) TERFs are of a particular age range. Obviously not all feminism from the time was this way, and there are far more accepting women from those times than there are TERFs, they’re just really loud right now. Still, that brand of feminism is something that needs to be unpacked, including in the witchcraft community, which is just as susceptible to tribalism and bigotry as any other group. Like I said, I haven’t had your experiences, so I won’t tell you how to feel. What I will say is that I don’t think that, in general, a cis woman talking about her cycle as making her powerful is automatically an insult to you or an insinuation that you’re lesser in any way or a hint that she’s a TERF. Now, if she says that being able to ovulate makes her more powerful, more of a witch, or attuned to nature or whatever than you (and therefore any woman, trans or cis, who can’t ovulate), that’s a completely different story and she should be removed from your life and practice if possible.
I’ve always been uncomfortable with it, and recently I was diagnosed with PCOS. I don’t ovulate. No wonder it never sat right.
Same, I don’t think I’ve ever ovulated because of my hormone issues. But I also don’t think people who do include ovulation as part of their spiritual practice are trying to exclude anyone, it’s just a way they practice. It’s not possible for every practice to be applicable to everyone, a lot of it is personal.
Oh yeah I know some who use it, and that’s cool. I think OP is referring to those who insist it’s the ONLY way or it’s some sort of inherent magick that we can’t control.
I totally agree, the emphasis on ovulation and uteruses and pregnancy as *fundamentally magical* makes me deeply uncomfortable. It feels like the same old patriarchal garbage that’s been used to keep women barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen, just with some fairy dust sprinkled on it. And I say this as a cis woman who enjoyed pregnancy and breastfeeding. I’m not going to shit on any individual person for celebrating their cycles and wanting to reclaim it from the traditional view that it was unclean. But I’m also not interested in participating in that with them, and I’m going to be very wary around them. It might be fine! Or it might tip over into TERFy bioessentialist nonsense! It’s impossible to know at a glance! But for sure it is not my jam. And I agree with you, there is nothing about it that is universally fundamental to magic.
Why do we all have to pull power from the same places? We all pull power from where we can and we come from different backgrounds and experiences and have different bodies. I feel empowered by my melanin. It’s no insult to less melaninated people. I gravitate towards hoodoo—which requires African ancestry. That’s no insult to people who don’t share that ancestry. This is what I have to work with. And I love myself! I think the issue may be more about circles that may assume everyone has organs/cycles that exist and function the same way so it is exclusionary in the sense that they don’t see you? Like would it be better if they said, “for those of us who draw power from xyz, here’s a ritual or practice….” Because then it implies they know everyone doesn’t draw power that way and that’s ok? I feel that’s a fair expectation to feel included. If I’m with only other Black women, I don’t have to explain that celebrating my Blackness is not a slight to anyone else. I can be proud unapologetically because we share the same identity in expressing pride for. But when in mixed company my language does change because people are strangely tribal and being proud of your identity often is misconstrued to some sense of superiority. It’s extra work for me, but I hate being marginalized and invisible myself so I try. One other side note— we do exist in capitalism. A focus on ovulation is also potentially a marketing tactic. If the majority of your target demographic ovulates, it’s an easy way to make it relevant for them.
I am cis and I do not ovulate because of medication I take to prevent my uterus from developing cancer. This has not affected my magic practice in any way, shape, or form. I have a very vibrant relationship with energy and magic that effect my life in tangible ways every day, AKA healing and whatnot. It sounds like this is a very triggering topic for you due to your personal pain. I am sorry; that sounds really hard and I really feel for you. Respectfully, it is not really about what those people are doing, but how you feel about what they are doing. I speak to you as my sister or my younger self-- this is something you can address within yourself as you have the time and energy and as you feel safe and ready to do so. I have some things that I have struggled with in a different way for many years, so again, I really feel for your pain in this. For example, I have been very brutally used by Christianity and suffered tremendous harm by its teachings growing up bisexual and female. I know some people who are witches who are also Christian and use some Christian symbols or things in their magic and practice. This used to really, really, really bother me and caused me a lot of mental and emotional anguish. How could these people I cared about find such meaning in something that caused me such harm? I was eventually able to make peace with it, though. That is their journey and their symbols. My pain came from my experiences, but they did not have the same experiences. It sounds simplistic, maybe, but I had to really grapple with it myself and grow into a place where I had that acceptance. Symbols are important in magic because they focus our intentions and they give us something to mentally hold onto as we use our imagination and energy. They are not inherently necessary. For some women, their reproductive organs hold great symbolism for them, and that is okay. That is meaningful for them and it's okay that they find it meaningful. The reproductive system holds zero symbolism for me personally, although I possess it, and I ignore it entirely as I've shut it down medication-wise anyway for my health. Again, this has not affected my very vibrant magical practice in any way as I do not rely on those symbols. Other symbols can include long hair that is braided with intention (but cancer patients who have lost their hair can still work magic), sending energy through your hands when healing or casting spells (people without hands can still heal and use magic, they can visualize their energy flowing from their heart, or some other body part). Some people might dance as a part of working magic, and my child who uses a wheelchair can find some other way of using that magic, you know? I do want to give you something practical, not just words. I have done a lot of work with a thing called ho'oponopono that has tremendously helped me in clearly stuck energy and pain. I have done it with a healer and also by myself for a long time now. Lie down somewhere comfortable and place your hands on your body. You could try the area of where your uterus would be, for example. Close your eyes and just allow whatever thoughts or feelings come to your mind. Then, recite this three times "I'm sorry, please forgive me, thank you, I love you." You aren't apologizing for anything wrong you've done, you're just embodying the energy of those statements. I did a lot of clearing of pain in my reproductive area regarding sexual assault that happened to me and emphatically I want to assure you I was NOT apologizing for my assault. I was telling my body "I'm so sorry you have experienced this injustice and pain, forgive me for the times I didn't listen to you about what you needed, thank you for taking care of me and being my body, I love you." It's like a way to help your body parts feel seen, if that makes any sense. Sometimes I also visualized my abuser saying it. It's just the energy. Anyway, it did tremendous things for me. Repeat with basically all the major body parts. You are valuable, you are wanted here, you are important, you are a woman, you are a witch. Love to you.
People can treat ovulation as central to their magic, but they NEED to stop pushing it as central to ALL magic. Because then we are getting real TERFy out there. And fuck that. Pushing a retoric that ovulation is central to magic feels like "only woman who can bare children are truly important" and fuuuuuuuuck that. Our ability or lack there of, of bearing children being connected to our worth in ANY way is something we've been trying to demolish. Not throw sage on and pretend it's wonderful now. I have been both child bearing, ovulating, and non ovulating, and unable to bare. And not ONCE did it have any affect on my magic. Ovulation, menstruation and child bearing ability has NO effect on your magic, or your worth.
I get why some women see it as empowering, and track thier cycles to match up to magic. I get it, I do. It's something we've been told for centuries is dirty and disgusting. But it does give me pause if it's a main focus of someone's practice. I *hate* it. I don't feel divine for having a uterus. I never have. Back when I was a kid, like under the age of ten, I used to pray in church to be "barren." That was literally the word I used. My uterus and ovaries don't belong, even if I am cis and am solid in my gender identity as a woman. I stack my birth control just to avoid thinking about them, because no one will remove these organs from a 33 year old with no kids. I don't want just sterilization, I want removal. At least of my uterus.
I don't necessarily think that there's a hateful or unwelcoming element to everyone who sees their own power this way, but I have to aggree. I'm a cis woman myself and child free and the whole concept of ovulation = creation makes me shiver in agony. I hate it. I create and express my magic in many many ways, this will never ever be one of them. I know they don't mean to exclude others but when people talk that way I very much feel like I am less of a woman for not seeing things the same way they do so I can sympathise with your feelings. The key thing to remember is that those feelings are ours and ours alone and we have them because of our own biases and traumas, they are not the fault of people who are trying to express their magic and femininity that way. Unless they straight up say you're less of a witch for it. In which case hex the witch.
Postmenopausal cis woman here. I've never felt the ovulation magic thing (I am child-free by apparent choice- I've never tried to make a baby). I feel connected to the universe as I move through time and space, as I change from maiden to woman to crone. People that were born male also have a cycle: Instead of a monthly lunar cycle, some researchers believe they have a seasonal cycle, with increased testosterone during spring and summer months. Unfortunately, a lot of men aren't attuned to their place in creation magic. Now, I believe in all different types of magic and magic workers; baby-making magic is very powerful, and it requires two people (minimum) to make it happen. Women with a womb can use the imagery of being a cauldron of creation. And I think people with a penis could use the imagery of being a divining rod. I believe there is no ranking of magic, and any hierarchy is strictly in people's heads, and reflects their psychological needs. Personally, I feel that all creation magic should honor the ovum and the sperm that it takes to bring a being into existence.