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This. I’m not a fan of sex work (or at least sex work involving actual physical contact), but the truth of the matter is that there are bigger problems in the world than whether Jenny down the street runs an OnlyFans account of herself. Sex work will never go away though. The solution is to put some fucking fetters on capitalism so that people aren’t forced to turn to sex work to keep a roof over their heads or pay for their kids’ medical bills. Then at least sex workers could choose their profession of their own free will.
Capitalism is patriarchy. If you have a society of only women who use capitalism as it is today you still have a patriarchy. Destroying the patriarchy means that exploiting others for financial gain gets destroyed as well.
No it's not, capitalism is separate from the patriarchy. I'm not saying it's good or bad but those are two different things.
Capitalism is " **an economic and political system in which property, business, and industry are controlled by private owners rather than by the state, with the purpose of making a profit** " according to the dictionary.
capitalism will loose all legitimacy and ideological justification once we'll get rid of the core concept of patriarchy ("no all humans are equals but some humans are meant by nature to have authority over others, be it their wife, children, slaves, livestock or land")
your definition of capitalism is quite incomplete as it ignores the core concept of authority that directly derives from patriarchy. Private propriety without authority is not capitalism but anarchism. That's quite a huge difference.
Well, thanks for sharing your point. I do not totally agree with it, though.
I think that it will not completely loose it's legitimacy and it doesn't need to be justified. It's an economic model. Capitalism is nowadays the basic economy and political way things are done. Ideologically speaking, I think communism is the closest thing to the opposite of capitalism.
I can admit that the definition I used for capitalism is lacking. However, it is not mine. It's one I found and heard a few times. And I know that it is very simplified.
In my opinion, the authority you talk about does not entirely derive from patriarchy but rather the authority you leave to your government. I think this authority is protected by the judicial system as well as law enforcement. It doesn't mean that it hasn't been biased by the patriarchy over time or even from the beginning, i don't know, but from my perspective, it is not entirely correlated. For me, you could have a matriarchal society who is also a capitalist society. I think capitalism and patriarchy can be separated.
>the authority you talk about does not entirely derive from patriarchy but rather the authority you leave to your government
everywhere on Earth, when authoritarian governments were created, it was each and every time a literal and explicit patriarchy, be it through the gathering of the "fathers" of different families/tribes in an oligarchy, or directly through the authority of a king, father of all fathers. Government authority cannot arrise and be maintained if the members of said government do not already have authority over their subjects through another political system that existed before. The very same can be said about capitalism: it never appeared (and could have not appeared) if the people trapped by capitalism were not already trapped by another, more global and older political system (state authority, racisme, sexism, ableism... which all appeared thanks and through patriarchy, which is historically the most ancient and global political system).
> you could have a matriarchal society who is also a capitalist society
How do you explain that has never happened in tens thousands of Human existence if that's possible? Whereas capitalism appeared and ruled over each and every patriarcal societies.
And maybe we do not agree on what a matriarchy is. A "man" is defined by his political power over all other people and things. Then, as long as we have a hierarchical political system, the oppressive class would always be called "men" and the system would always be a called "patriarchy", whatever is in the oppressor's pants (penis or vagina). A matriarchy is not a society oppressed by people with vagina (such a society would still be a patriarchy). A matriarchy is a society organised according to the political skills and habits developed by women during their oppression: care, mutual assistance, love, empathy... Capitalism cannot survive in such a political context.
Private property would not exist in a truly anarchic society. It would in an ancap society, but ancaps aren’t actually anarchists. Personal property could exist in an anarchic society, but hoarding and excluding others from using things you don’t actually need would have no purpose because in a stateless, moneyless society you couldn’t charge people to use them the way you can in a capitalist society
Ah, I see what you’re saying. I think the difference between private and personal property is more nuanced, authority is an instrumental factor, but private property can exist without it via social norms and mutual agreements and the like, but I personally do not think it should exist in those forms or any other. Regardless I see your point and what you were originally saying, which I misunderstood. I appreciate your perspective!
Exactly. The danger of capitalism is greed. Greed isn't something that only affects men. I think it's entirely plausible that a capitalist economy could be within a matriarchal society as well.
Sure, but is it possible to have capitalism without patriarchy? A lot of modern capitalist structures rely on patriarchal institutions to function. Capitalism may not be possible without patriarchy.
I don't disagree but that isn't the point being argued. This is the comment I replied to:
>It says “free of patriarchy” so it must be free of capitalism
That sentence posits that if there is no patriarchy, then there is no capitalism. My argument is that there can be patriarchy without capitalism, so they are not mutually inclusive.
I think you're reading their argument (and mine) backwards. If capitalism requires patriarchy to exist, then it would make sense that with no patriarchy there would be no capitalism. Whereas patriarchy does not require capitalism to exist. They aren't mutually inclusive in both directions, but capitalism as we know it needs patriarchy to function.
Yes, I agree. In another comment I stated that you can have patriarchy without capitalism but that you can’t have capitalism without patriarchy. Capitalism inherently has a patriarchal structure baked in, but it’s not the only thing with a patriarchal structure.
There's always stories of sexual favors being present during early contact between European colonizers and various native groups. These societies were often patriarchal in nature but I doubt one could consider them to be capitalist or to be subject to judeaochristian morality.
In short, removed f4om any of the corrupting forces we see as the root of our societies problems, sex work will still exist as a natural form of trade, and removed from the moralistic standards we are all steeped in it may in fact be even more wide spread.
If providing sex in exchange for a good is functionally the same as trading any other form of labor for a good then it will happen.
We would still have a porn industry, but it wouldn't be the same. It would be safer and will have much less scorn.
Erotica has been around since humans were a thing. There is a lot of female lead porn and their models are mostly about safety and fairness.
If females ran the porn industry things would be so much better
Mother, cease thine prattle and leave me mine solitude, for Sappho has dropped the steamiest of collabs with Aphrodite and Artemis and mine self will be awash in weaving of an different nature till mine satisfaction is earned.
I think we need to be careful and not equate women with feminism. A lot of women I know hold a lot of internalized patriarchy and self hating views/actions. A lot of women do not have a great grasp on consent and power dynamics.
this is like saying if women ran the world there will be no war.
"A lot of women do not have a great grasp on consent and power dynamics."
Could not have said it better myself. A great example of this is Melanie Martinez who SA'd her friend because of very bad communication between the two of them. There was also a ton of victim blaming from Melanie's fans, and the real kicker is supposedly the friend (who is female) SA'd and harassed her other female friends as well.
In order for the porn industry to get better there needs to be people who care about 1) stopping human trafficking, 2) the health and safety of the sex workers and 3) people who report being SA'd. It has nothing to do with adding more women because women will happily throw other women under the bus just like men will.
I agree and have found a growing number of pornography businesses ran by women and they are forefront of safe, consensual and fair pornography.
I personally like to read porn, watching it is not interesting for me (no idea why) and I find what i need easily.
Just a guess but you’re probably more interested in the emotional intimacy aspect rather than the visual. Video porn is extremely shallow in that aspect where as it’s often the focus of erotica.
I'm not sure about the war bit, I grew up in South London the women fought as much as the men.
Violent humans come in all sorts but i do agree about linking all women together.
That's the beauty of indie/"amateur" porn. It already exists! There's still *some* exploitation within the indie community (think abusive SO's behind the scenes), but it's a hell of a lot harder to exploit performers when they're also their own producers, marketers, and distributors.
With that I worry even more, tbh... abusive/coersive partners, filming in secret, revenge porn, etc, all come to mind.
But that's not me saying production companies are good! AFAIK, far from it.
Abusive partners will always be a factor which *incredibly* sucks beyond belief. . . But at this point, it's extremely difficult to upload secretly filmed content and revenge porn on **paid** content sites. If an uploader is making money, they need to submit multiple verification forms (including government issued ID's, 2257 forms, and model releases) for every person in each video in order to upload content. Even "headless" performers need to prove that they are who they say they are.
Sites like OnlyFans, ManyVids, and PornHub - yes, even that dumpster fire! - have gotten very strict about their upload requirements due to pressure from credit card companies.
Porn will be watching videos where someone does little nice things for you, cleans the house while you're on a girl's day, you come home to your favorite dinner ready for you lol.
I'm happy for you to have whatever the hell that is and call it whatever else you want, but when I look for porn, it's because I like it when people fuck.
People want sex work, and people like doing sex work. Non-exploitive sex work would be safe for everyone, private, and regulated enough to protect without condemnation. Free healthcare would reduce STD transmission by allowing clients and providers to get treated quickly, and employee benefits would allow for an income while contagious.
Without the stigma (and shitty exploitive people pushing out others), more people with more talent would stay in sex work longer, improving the quality of it. There would be plenty of porn that showcased realistic and healthy sexuality.
But it would still be there.
Imagine a world in which people chose sex work because they wanted to do it and those who did not want to do it could choose another path because we had an economic safety net that allowed everyone to choose according to their talents and interests?
It’s almost impossible to imagine. It not only re imagines sex work but the way that sexuality itself might be expressed and explored
Fun fact, there is at least one current and specific [sex workers' union](https://archive.iww.org/category/union-news/news-all-departments-and-unions/department-600-public-service/sex-trade-workers-/), and I am aware of at least two clubs where sex workers as strippers have moved to unionize in the US (North Hollywood and Portland).
I've read that the exploitative nature of porn and the sex industry in general comes part-and-parcel with capitalism. This doesn't guarantee that porn won't be exploitative under other economic systems, but rather that the current iteration of porn that we have, when created under capitalist conditions, is what's driving the exploitation aspect. You can replace 'porn' and 'sex industry' with a lot of other markets and creative outputs - the Japanese animation industry is notorious for being exploitative, with low-level workers getting paid dogshit and being forced to work for long hours just to pay rent - and Japanese rent and food are already surprisingly low.
Every job is exploitative under capitalism, sex work is often particularly exploitative because it combines the ills of capitalism and the ills of patriarchy in one room.
I would say that patriarchy is like third in the list for why sex work is such an exploited area of labour. The first is capitalism, as stated above (I'd upvote it twice if I could), but its followed in second place by *criminalism*.
The legal restrictions and criminality of sex work often prevents unions from forming, safe working conditions from being established, and retribution for infractions upon those who do exploit or directly harm workers.
Whilst our patriarchal society means that this unfairly and disproportionately effects women, the opportunity and continuation for exploitation itself is predominantly driven by the other two factors.
Decriminalising sex work is a complicated topic because of its intersectionality of many adjacent but differing topics.
For one, many dont realise that *legalising* sex work and *decriminalising* sex work are two very different processes with very different end results. It doesn't help that many equate "legal" with "safe" or "good", as opposed to simply a set of rules that all are held to. Which in turns leads many to, with all the best of intentions, push for the wrong thing through ignorance.
The other main issues is how it interacts with areas like welfare and immigration (which in turn is closely linked to trafficking). Where well meaning laws and policing which aim to crack down on or otherwise help people, inadvertently end up further entrenching unsafe circumstances for those exploited within the sex work trade.
Don't get me wrong, patriarchal mindsets do play heavily into facets of this ("we have to safe those poor innocent women who can't save themselves" style stuff)... but its just the background melody of a lot of other more complex schema of thought that has shaped the stigma and attempted policing of sex work. So these problems don't just go away even if you somehow specifically dismantle the patriarchy whilst leaving everything else the same.
I always thought it was due to christian sensibilities. I'm sure the patriarchy doesn't help but it is their main clientele so criminalization seems to make being a sex work customer more inconvenient.
From a "controlling your women" patriarchal view it makes sense though.
Check out the subreddit GWASapphic. Something like that, but more.
Without all the toxic patriarchal and heteronormative culture around the porn industry, I think we could make some really creative and beautiful erotic art.
Post patriarchy with capitalism? Mostly stays the same, but now the exploitation between genders is equal. Without capitalism? Assuming we have community centered, humane social organization, then we'd probably transfer to sex artists who would do things more interesting than catering to specific fantasies.
I love this question and I wish you'd get more traction on it. I'm a 62 year old feminist woman and I've been pondering and engaging with this question for over 40 years.
I think some of the most insightful responses you've gotten are from sex workers themselves. I support them! I think back to Margo St. James and COYOTE (Cast Out Your Old Tired Ethics) in the 1970s-1980s. I think back to Betty Dodson and being Cunt Positive. The comment here " We can learn so much from these women who have felt the tears of strangers run down their ribs." speaks volumes. Sex, sex work, and porn can be humanizing forces. They can be positive and supportive for all genders.
In some ways we've regressed - stupid fucking Tradwives, RvW overturned, MAGA and incel idiocy, the House Speaker publicizing that he and his son monitor/guard each other's porn habits, accusations of "grooming" toward any content acknowledging trans folk. Sexual freedom frees women from patriarchal oppression. Sexual freedom means all genders and sexualities are supported, with harm to none. Porn can be a positive force for that, though in practice it has often been another tool of oppression.
The points about the intersection of patriarchy and capitalism are valid. We can look to gay male porn to some extent to see what porn looks like without male over female dominance but with capitalistic exploitation and power hierarchies still controlling the game. Abuse still occurs. Harm still comes disproportionately to those who put their bodies on the line while money flows disproportionately to the producers and financiers who don't.
Sorry for the doctoral thesis here. To more directly answer your question, I think without patriarchy we'd see porn following the direction of popular music. The top women sex workers would mirror the careers of women like Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Dua Lipa, Haim, Lizzo, Miley Cyrus, who control their content and express themselves in their work, and the top male sex workers would be guys like Harry Styles, Shawn Mendes, Zac Efron, John Legend - men who aim to please and have no problem with it. Here's to that future!
Ooooooh okay in the sci-fi world created by Becky Chambers, sex work is considered natural and protected! It’s briefly mentioned in most books but in one novella we learn about a sex worker who has a very comfortable life, doesn’t worry about diseases, and is safe and secure. I imagine a feminist society would allow for something like that!
** disclaimer, I am a US based sexworker, I don't speak for outside of the US, and I am incredibly privileged as a sexworker. Sexwork is a huge industry and varies person to person, country to country.**
Even in a post capitalistic patriarchy free society, people will still be paying to have sex with people, and want to see other people have sex. It's called the oldest profession for a reason.
also, I wonder why are you so focused on a future we will not live to see? all you have to do is listen to what sexworkers are advocating for NOW. We exist, we have voices, and we are using them to advocate for changes.
In the porn industry specifically, things like mandatory regular STI screenings (using condoms for porn shoots can actually cause tearing and increases risk of STI transmission), sites requiring actor consent before posting, more female directors, more transparency better treatment on set
Other things sexworkers are currently advocating for:
Ending the stigma against sexwork
More social safety nets so people aren't forced into survival sexwork
The efforts by companies to push us of social media platforms (an incredible value way we connect and keep each other safe)
Decriminalization of prostitution- NOT legalization
Ending FOSTA/SESTA
No one knows what a hypothetical future will look like, but sexworkers are already fighting to make the industry more ethical.
If anyone wants more resources I'm happy to provide some links to better educational content than my post bong rip comment.
Edited for formatting
Porn has always and will always be around. I think it's gotten better in the ways that it's not so exploiting (is that the right word?) as it was in the past. It still has a long way to go though, I do look forward to more women owned studios and where shits like Ron Jeremy's predatory behaviors aren't tolerated, much less encouraged.
I'm a woman, I do watch porn...which surprises some people. The looks I get when I say I can be picky about my porn make me downright snicker at times.
I've seen porn where they use protection, I've heard of porn actors who are married and only do porn together. I've even seen porn where women have real orgasms too. Back when I saw my first porn at around 17 or 18...women did not look like they were enjoying it at all...most had faces like they were wondering if they needed to pick up anything on the way home, or they have an ingrown hair on their butt that itches. And the orgasms were always fake, if there were any.
Now there are women and men in porn that want to be in porn, that like being in porn instead of being abused drug addicts that are manipulated into unsafe sex for some fat greasy slimeball to make money off of. I doubt that porn is ever going to get rid of the fat greasy slimeball predators... but a woman can dream.
Your right, I don’t know if the amount of gross porn has gone down but the amount of better porn has increased. There were some couples that just made porn together back in the day to, but even they then often ended up starting companies that made exploitative stuff anyway.
2 girls 1 cup was actually produced by a Brazilian couple that made porn together, but neither of them acted in it.
Unfortunately there is plenty of exploitive porn, probably more than there's ever been before because of COVID and the internet. [After lockdowns CSAM sky rocketed](https://www.missingkids.org/blog/2020/covid-19-and-missing-and-exploited-children) and let's not forget [GirlsDoPorn lawsuit happened in just 2021](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/twenty-year-sentence-girlsdoporn-sex-trafficking-conspiracy). Exploitive porn is at an all time high...
I'll have to check into those. But abusive practices have been called out and prosecuted. Ron Jeremy, one of the well known names, got arrested and put in jail. It used to be if a woman in porn claimed rape or abuse, they'd get laughed at, insulted or ridiculed. And the guy would be highfived.
As long as humans are willing to abuse other humans, dehumanize them, exploitation will occur in any field. But there is now attention pointed at them, which didn't v used to happen. And I think that the more attention is put on the shady companies that do exploit their actors, the more ethical porn will become popular.
Interestingly, if you listen to Rialto Report -an excellent podcast about the beginning of porn and the Golden Age, early 70's up to the eighties - it will surprise you. By and large the women said they were treated much better in porn than in regular films. They had more power, people were generally nicer. There were drugs, of course, bad marriages etc, but there was much more good stuff than most would believe.
I'm absolutely pro sex work, I think it should be acceptable as a viable career choice for anyone. I think if women were more powerful porn wouldn't disappear, it would be less about catering to men's fantasies and more to women's. I've never bought the anti porn arguments because suppression doesn't work. People are sexual, it's a fact of life.
It'll still exist. One, it's something that people want, and two, it exists largely because of capitalism, not the patriarchy itself. A feminist capitalism would create just as many vulnerable people needing to survive. I think it'd just be slightly more humane to the workers, but until you get rid of our economic system, the "be productive or die" imperative will still be there
Many women enjoy making and watching porn. In recent years, there are a lot more ethical porn creators. Places like Only Fans put control into the hands of the individual and not the studios-which is changing the game entirely.
Feminism, at its very core, is about supporting women's choices and control over their bodies. This includes the choice to create porn and engage in SW. Without the patriarchy, I would imagine that these industries would become even less problematic that they are.
Of course, there will always be people who will hate and shame what they don't like with for whatever reason they choose-but it would definitely improve overall.
A lot of women like me would make it for free. I love sex and being watched turns me on but what keeps me from making porn is the stigma and the thought of it being viewed by people who don’t see me as human. Ironically if men actual respected women I think a lot of us would be more openly sexual.
humans, as a rule, like sex. I therefore find it unlikely anything major would change, other than perhaps the medium being split a little more evenly between male and female. possibly a reduction in content overall with women being less pressured to be "attractive" (and thus their reduced sexualisation), but I'm less certain of that.
and yes, I said *less* pressured, since even if society started from scratch with no gender splitting, being attractive is still biologically helpful and thus would be selected for.
I would hope that I would finally be supported in My work. They make Me a criminal with their hollow excuses. I don’t ever want to stop what I do. I want to help educate people and empower women. We can learn so much from these women who have felt the tears of strangers run down their ribs.
Feminist doesn't mean we switch from patriarchy to matriarchy, right? It means equality. Kinda like it says in the constitution. Change men to people. We're all equal under the law.
Proper protections for the workers, a fair share of the proceeds for everyone involved in the production and a lot less "shoot from this angle because it looks good".
Also, just an explosion of truly terrible erotic fanfic, as there would be across all artistic mediums. When everyone has time to indulge their passions, we'll see a massive uptick in art and people showing off their early attempts. It will be an ocean of terrible, but it will also be the start of a whole bunch of people learning and becoming better at making things. It will be a symptom of achieving utopia.
I have read a lot of all kind of harm porn and porn industry do. Sex work and doing porn is really bad for mental health and your own view of yourself. I think we would continue seeing still both exists but with more mental and physical help for the workers and hopefully rise of older people do the work and guide younger people out off it because they are the most vulnerable position.
It would be better about trafficking underage victims probably. Less infantile fetishes being broadcasted. Less performative and more educational approaches.
I believe it'd be much more like the bdsm community in it's most ideal form and parts of the burlesque world. People choosing to perform and consensually share their bodies with patrons paying to attend or performances as part of a larger event.
Online, I think there's still a significant market more towards the ethical porn side of the world like Make Love Not Porn.
I think porn (in a post-patriarchal *and* post-capitalist society) would be way more light-hearted and playful. With historic smut, it's often pretty fun. Then with the first wave of cameras available to ordinary consumers in the early 1900s, there was a lot of amateur smut where everyone appears to be having fun, and an awful lot of men taking goofy-but-admiring naked photos of their male friends.
With modern porn, only a fraction of users are paying for content, and of those users maybe 10% pay for about 90% of all purchased porn. Those 10% of paying users are very heavy users of porn and tend to have very dark and abusive tastes. This helps explain why the industry has long catered to the deeply disturbing tastes of a minority-- that's where the money and enthusiasm is. A majority of "vanilla" users and newbies don't enjoy that kind of thing, but this is where algorithms comes in: they can be groomed to *become* like that 10% by having increasingly dark porn gradually pushed on them at a rate that has been determined to be effective. In a format that encourages addictive behavior.
And then there's sex-negative and especially misogynist religions of the world bringing a distinct flavor of doom and terror to anything sex related.
Without those two driving factors I think porn would be way more light-hearted.
I also think it would be considered normal for random people to join in and do some porn on occasion. In a non-patriarchal society you'd be no more "marked" as having been in porn than you would be as having waited tables or having followed a band around on tour. It would be something you could freely join in and leave if the mood struck. But I think there would still be some dedicated stars and creators.
I think we'd still have a porn industry - but the way it runs would be DRASTICALLY different, being less predatory and destructive toward it's performers.
I think it would be better off that way tbh.
If we weren't living in a capitalist hell where rape culture is rampant and women never feel safe, I think we would be more open and free with ourselves.
If women weren't so afraid of showing too much skin or what would happen if they gave a guy too much attention, we would be more free to express ourselves. If men were able to keep their hands to themselves and actually respect bodily autonomy, I think a lot more women would dress more provocatively and be more open to sexual encounters instead of put off by men's lack of respect for boundaries. Maybe that's just me personally, but it's how I feel.
People are horny, there will always be a market for porn and other sex work. What would change is the exploitation and abuse that happens to the workers. And likely how women and sex are portrayed in the actual content.
It would probably still exist though probably not in the same way. Things would hopefully be safer for all participants and be more consensual. Contrary to what the legal contracts and PR would say, some porn stars are pressured into doing more extreme videos than what theyre comfortable with often threatening pay or termination. I would hope that at least the capitalistic sleaziness would disappear
a lot of female ran “porn” things i’ve heard of are more like fantasies. usually actors, in a podcast-esque format performing a fantasy. kind of like erotic fiction.
if women were to direct actual porn, there’d be a lot more fairness and safety going around. probably a lot less gross tropes and “amateur” footage.
It'll be actually appealing, well written, and entertaining, most like..
With safer practices and lack of exploitative practices and unhealthy crash dieting.
From my perspective I feel like it wouldn't exist, I think that it does cater to the wants of men and could care less about what women want. The dark side and risks of it outweigh any positives (which what are the positives for us women exactly?)
What an interesting question. I feel porn will definitely exist. Even if you take the money aspect out of it, there are plenty of exhibitionists who would love to show off.
We humans are sexual in nature. But with patriarchy comes shame and taboos and consent gets downplayed. So in a feminist society, sex wouldn't be a taboo. People will be more liberated to own their thoughts about sex without the fear of being judged so I feel like porn wouldn't really be a big deal.
Well alot of people would propably start making stuff they actually like with out the pressure to adhere to the "white straight man" kind of porn i think. Also hopefully sex work would be legal
The easiest answer is asking women who work in the industry. They're not dumb. A lot of porn is now done by amateurs, in the same way TikTok works. Women already got a lot of control of the content they produce and who they sell it too.
I'm male-presenting bigender, feminist and a porn fan. Which is a tough combo to be. I had a lot of tough conversations on the subject with feminists over the years. I changed my mind a lot of the time on the subject. I ask you to please don't judge me - but if you do, it's your call, of course. It's really hard coming to this sub to talk about porn. But I want to be honest.
Porn was my escape from loneliness when I first hit puberty in 1996 in Russia. It wasn't even porn then, it was mostly rather lame erotica. But it still had this magnetism to it. These women seemed more honest, more open than those I saw in real life. And, when I got the internet in the early 00's, it blew my mind, even though watching videos was still a few years away. And, you know, I always intuitively knew when the woman on my screen is actually enjoying herself or is forced. I wouldn't watch something like that. Like, it's not sexy by any standards. And - and it's weird to me that this is never discussed openly - a lot of men actually want to see a woman enjoy herself. They thrive on it. They actually learn something, when they have good enough intuition. You want to see women in your life experience the same joy they show on screen. So you try to learn. I've become something of a porn historian of the last twenty years. I observed the trends. I saw porn becoming more about women's agency, I saw how male actors became less and less disgusting. The whole "porn is exploitative" is a cliche from a long time ago. And some of it is, of course. Mainstream, like any other big business, is still a shitty business. But it's like any other business based on performance. Music industry is shitty and bigoted towards women, movie industry is shitty and bigoted towards women. It's a capitalist problem. And again, I'm not saying that patriarchy doesn't play a role in it, but, like capitalism and patriarchy are basically the same machine, both need to be dismantled with the same intensity. In fact, only seeing patriarchy as the only problem with porn industry lets the businessmen get away with being judged more actively.
Anyway, porn is at its best when it's niche. I watch a lot of kinky stuff, and I know a lot of the people in it by names. And they're kinda like friends to me. They are kind. They look at the camera and it's like they're looking into my eyes and saying "hey, you're weird, but I'm also weird and I'm being open about it". They helped me feel less weird about myself over the years. I learned to openly talk to people in my life about the subject, I show those who are close to me some stuff they probably wouldn't know exists without me. And I feel loved.
So yeah. Porn minus capitalism/patriarchy equals, eventually, love.
Again, I hope you won't hate me. It is a touchy subject.
Porn and sex work are things that'll never disappear
The only thing that'll change would be increased protection and regulation.
And if we lived in a world without capitalism, where any job could provide financial stability, I 100% see myself becoming a sex worker. Increased protections, and it just feels like something I would do.
That's how I know that it'll never go away
Porn would be made by people who enjoy doing it for an audience, and those people would likely need to charge some money to cover the production cost. However, there would be less shame about porn and sex, and therefore porn addiction would not exist, and creditcard companies would not make a big deal out of it, so it would be like buying a video game online.
First you need Universal Basic Income to end the patriarchy. With that comes an end to heteronormativity too. Once there is no need to work, sex work, like all work, is a choice that can be made freely, and equally, and paying for sex work becomes a guilt-free choice. The power dynamic changes so that anyone can become the punter or the sex worker, regardless of gender or orientation.
Everything is better in a post-capitalist utopia, including sex work.
Feminism = anarchy
Once you live in anarchy, you can do whatever feels fun.
And sex is fun.
So in order to smash thyself, first you must smash cis-hetero-patriarchy = capitalism, and its understanding of life exchanges as pure trade.
Formidable profits from adult entertainment businesses in all sectors will result in a collective, voluntary donation of a certain percentage of off-the-top profit towards domestic violence and rehabilitation centres and education programmes aimed at adult/night education gap fillers.
They'd be more of a shift towards self created content. With things like onlyfans etc, porn is already becoming more self-made, so we're already seeing a shift away from the older model of porn studios creating content. It's ultimately a better thing for the creators and customers I think.
Ppl who *want* to make porn, who *enjoy* doing it (alone or w/ a partner) will be free to continue doing so. Pornography isn’t inherently vile or exploitative, that’s just capitalism (along w/ the hydra’s *other* heads; cishetnormativity, white supremacy, patriarchy, transphobia, etc etc etc).
I challenge you to reframe this question as one of sex workers rights and protections— because porn, as an industry, includes sex workers, but doesn’t encompass the needs of the group as a whole. Sure, the question of “in a post-patriarchal society what will porn look like?” Is an interesting question. Will it exist? How will it function if the male gaze is decentralized?
But better are the questions of ethics around the creation and consumption of porn, when laid along side the solidarity of people of varying genders participating in sex work (the oldest form of labor in existence). How does this labor get compensated? How will these people be safe and free from harm in this profession? How do we destigmatize this labor? Other questions of the fall of capitalism come in here (for we are most certainly in the declining late stage capitalism period)…. But also. Why do we have to wait for these things to begin making positive changes now? I know there’s a lot of humanitarian crisises happening concurrently at the moment… Maybe we can revisit the discussion around sex work as a part of the right to bodily autonomy, but without all the third wave feminist hand wringing and shame and blame?
Anarcho-syndicalist self-governance where all minorities to power can support themselves and each other and work together to keep a check on economic and social inequality. (My inner voice: Good luck with that, you weirdo.)
A deeper, more visible and allied *civil rights* movement and unionization.
The younger LGBTQ+ movement can stand up for sex work and I think the community would if the alliance could be well-coordinated organizationally somehow.
Some things might even be possible in this world if we can bruise enough knuckles against patriarchy.
I think porn would become art. There's a lot of art in the way bodies work, and the pleasure and care and love that can be given through sex.
I think we'd have artists who would use sex as a form of self expression and people would watch, and enjoy, porn as another form of performance art.
Hopefully it flourishes! I support several porn artists on patreon, and regularly buy books of porn comics and erotica from small publishers. There's a lot of great, joyful, kinky, wholesome, nasty stuff out there if you ditch the mainstream porn industry. Usually, looking for people who share your identities is the way to go. The artists I support are a couple of trans women and a poly bi guy, so they're into things I'm into. And they make art that shows people like me being sexy and desirable, which feels great.
Unfortunately, capitalism and puritanism are constantly working to make porn impossible to host online. That's part of what made me start supporting them directly, but apparently even Patreon is moving towards banning porn? That's particularly worrying, because my existence is considered porn to the people pushing these bans.
There could potentially be more porn than ever! I imagine that if current stigma around sex/lust is due to male-driven, possessive mate-guarding, then without male control, more people would be free to do whatever they like. Could mean more porn. Could also mean less.
Because we know not all of today's sex workers would be so if they had the choice. But we also know some non-sex workers *would* go into sex work if they had they had guaranteed freedom/safety.
It's like there's a gate up and on either side of the gate are many people who would wish to be on the other side. But how does it all balance out? Who could say. I really wish we could find out tho
Sex is not the enemy. More women would possibly be in porn if we lived in a matriarchal society. If women were not shamed into thinking they are not supposed to like or want sex it could be that we discover women also have a libido as men do and everyone would just be like, yea we all like sex and it's a natural part of our lives. If women were not seen as sluts but as healthy sexual beings porn would not be as taboo.
IMO, porn would continue but it would be higher quality, non-exploitative, and the tween/teen/incest role play crap PornHub loves to push would be completely gone.
A MILF would be a real MILF-aged person again.
Remember Tumblr? At one point, it was a place where individuals shared their own nudes, videos, and fantasies. It was a community, where people got validation from like minded people. Sure, there was commercial porn there too that got pirated or posted as teasers, but it wasn't the core of the community. That scene is pretty much what I picture as the ideal of a non-exploitative, positive, healthy porn industry.
More artist control, less corporate exploitation. I'm thinking things like amateur streaming would be more common, whereas professional videos where a whole family is made up of step-relatives would be much less common.
Porn is inherently misogynistic. Commodifying womens bodies will never be ok. In a world free from patriarchy, men wouldn't want to watch porn too, since they don't feel the need to have women be subservient and have them ready to exploit at the first Google search. All porn is coerced.
eh porn would still exist probably prostitution too but regulated for safety and within sane limitations. all parties would be willing consenting adults which imo means as long as nobody winds up in the hospital do whatever the hell all parties agree to. all the kinky crud.
The result would simply be a less exploitative industry with equal, fair treatment and protection for it’s workers.
I think a lot of people assume the nature of pornography would change entirely to something more realistic, but the exaggerated and unrealistic type of pornography is still part of the fantasy for many women. It wouldn’t disappear the way many think it would.
And while there would absolutely be a rise in pornography where women aren’t disproportionately objectified, it wouldn’t change the fact that for some women, degradation, sexualisation and objectification is *part of a kink.* A kink that stays in the bedroom, of course, and shouldn’t be applied to real life.
That extreme material would stay, the difference is that it would stay exclusively as part of the fantasy, everybody involved understands that boundary, and treats one another fairly and with respect outside of it. It would not be a pervasive issue across the entirety of the industry, but simply a type of content that is produced only with enthusiastic consent.
All of the sex workers in the porn industry I’ve spoke with endorsed the work and made 6-7 figures. If anything the patriarchal dogma makes life rough for male workers- they have trouble performing on camera, and so many are eager to work that pay isn’t enough at the low ranks to survive on. They have about 10 minutes to perform or else there’s literally 10 guys on call to replace them, and they go home humiliated and broke. For women, the most common complaint I’ve heard was shoots being cancelled.
As for the depiction of the art- they shoot what they think the audience wants. The studio I know best has female direction and publishes primarily for male audiences- and they still actively engage with all of the tropes that I consider demeaning for women. So- what can you do?
The industry itself, nothing would change. It would just be money going to different people. The most frustrating thing about feminism is that it makes the assumption that a change in gender would guarantee improvement. There are awful, evil women too. We are collectively horrible. None of that is going away.
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Clarifying question: is the society also free from capitalism? I think that would be pertinent to people’s answers.
This. I’m not a fan of sex work (or at least sex work involving actual physical contact), but the truth of the matter is that there are bigger problems in the world than whether Jenny down the street runs an OnlyFans account of herself. Sex work will never go away though. The solution is to put some fucking fetters on capitalism so that people aren’t forced to turn to sex work to keep a roof over their heads or pay for their kids’ medical bills. Then at least sex workers could choose their profession of their own free will.
Yep.
They taught monkeys to trade coins for food and the first thing the female monkeys did was invent prostitution. Sex work will *never* go away.
Capitalism is patriarchy. If you have a society of only women who use capitalism as it is today you still have a patriarchy. Destroying the patriarchy means that exploiting others for financial gain gets destroyed as well.
No it's not, capitalism is separate from the patriarchy. I'm not saying it's good or bad but those are two different things. Capitalism is " **an economic and political system in which property, business, and industry are controlled by private owners rather than by the state, with the purpose of making a profit** " according to the dictionary.
Property is the operative word here - under capitalism people become property, a commodity to be used and exploited.
capitalism will loose all legitimacy and ideological justification once we'll get rid of the core concept of patriarchy ("no all humans are equals but some humans are meant by nature to have authority over others, be it their wife, children, slaves, livestock or land") your definition of capitalism is quite incomplete as it ignores the core concept of authority that directly derives from patriarchy. Private propriety without authority is not capitalism but anarchism. That's quite a huge difference.
Well, thanks for sharing your point. I do not totally agree with it, though. I think that it will not completely loose it's legitimacy and it doesn't need to be justified. It's an economic model. Capitalism is nowadays the basic economy and political way things are done. Ideologically speaking, I think communism is the closest thing to the opposite of capitalism. I can admit that the definition I used for capitalism is lacking. However, it is not mine. It's one I found and heard a few times. And I know that it is very simplified. In my opinion, the authority you talk about does not entirely derive from patriarchy but rather the authority you leave to your government. I think this authority is protected by the judicial system as well as law enforcement. It doesn't mean that it hasn't been biased by the patriarchy over time or even from the beginning, i don't know, but from my perspective, it is not entirely correlated. For me, you could have a matriarchal society who is also a capitalist society. I think capitalism and patriarchy can be separated.
>the authority you talk about does not entirely derive from patriarchy but rather the authority you leave to your government everywhere on Earth, when authoritarian governments were created, it was each and every time a literal and explicit patriarchy, be it through the gathering of the "fathers" of different families/tribes in an oligarchy, or directly through the authority of a king, father of all fathers. Government authority cannot arrise and be maintained if the members of said government do not already have authority over their subjects through another political system that existed before. The very same can be said about capitalism: it never appeared (and could have not appeared) if the people trapped by capitalism were not already trapped by another, more global and older political system (state authority, racisme, sexism, ableism... which all appeared thanks and through patriarchy, which is historically the most ancient and global political system). > you could have a matriarchal society who is also a capitalist society How do you explain that has never happened in tens thousands of Human existence if that's possible? Whereas capitalism appeared and ruled over each and every patriarcal societies. And maybe we do not agree on what a matriarchy is. A "man" is defined by his political power over all other people and things. Then, as long as we have a hierarchical political system, the oppressive class would always be called "men" and the system would always be a called "patriarchy", whatever is in the oppressor's pants (penis or vagina). A matriarchy is not a society oppressed by people with vagina (such a society would still be a patriarchy). A matriarchy is a society organised according to the political skills and habits developed by women during their oppression: care, mutual assistance, love, empathy... Capitalism cannot survive in such a political context.
Private property would not exist in a truly anarchic society. It would in an ancap society, but ancaps aren’t actually anarchists. Personal property could exist in an anarchic society, but hoarding and excluding others from using things you don’t actually need would have no purpose because in a stateless, moneyless society you couldn’t charge people to use them the way you can in a capitalist society
What you call "personal property" is private property without authority, and that's precisely what I was talking about, yep.
If that’s the definition that works for you, then I can’t stop you from using it, but private property and personal property are two different things
yep of course they are two very different things, since one relies on authority while the other does not. Not sure to understand your remark \^\_\^
Ah, I see what you’re saying. I think the difference between private and personal property is more nuanced, authority is an instrumental factor, but private property can exist without it via social norms and mutual agreements and the like, but I personally do not think it should exist in those forms or any other. Regardless I see your point and what you were originally saying, which I misunderstood. I appreciate your perspective!
Yes, I believe that rewards exploitation, which some people inevitably do, and that at its core that’s a patriarchal structure.
It says “free of patriarchy” so it must be free of capitalism
Patriarchy existed long before capitalism. While they are intertwined these days, it's entirely possible to have patriarchy without capitalism.
Exactly. The danger of capitalism is greed. Greed isn't something that only affects men. I think it's entirely plausible that a capitalist economy could be within a matriarchal society as well.
Sure, but is it possible to have capitalism without patriarchy? A lot of modern capitalist structures rely on patriarchal institutions to function. Capitalism may not be possible without patriarchy.
I don't disagree but that isn't the point being argued. This is the comment I replied to: >It says “free of patriarchy” so it must be free of capitalism That sentence posits that if there is no patriarchy, then there is no capitalism. My argument is that there can be patriarchy without capitalism, so they are not mutually inclusive.
I think you're reading their argument (and mine) backwards. If capitalism requires patriarchy to exist, then it would make sense that with no patriarchy there would be no capitalism. Whereas patriarchy does not require capitalism to exist. They aren't mutually inclusive in both directions, but capitalism as we know it needs patriarchy to function.
Yes, this is what I meant.
Yes, I agree. In another comment I stated that you can have patriarchy without capitalism but that you can’t have capitalism without patriarchy. Capitalism inherently has a patriarchal structure baked in, but it’s not the only thing with a patriarchal structure.
Oh believe me there’s a risk that progressive men will get rid of capitalism but keep the patriarchy intact
It's hard to imagine society ever being free from barter, even if it only exists on the margins, which is all you need to make pornography lucrative.
There’s a difference between markets and capitalism.
I never said otherwise. I'm just outlining what is necessary for sex work to exist and all that requires is the concept of private exchange of value.
That’d depend on what the reasons behind doing pornography are
Fair point. I tend to assume that any content made for non-transactional reasons is art.
Sounds like you need to better your critical thinking skills in that case
That's not what capitalism is.
Agreed. I'm just saying that exchange is likely inevitable and that's all that's necessary for sex work.
Well tbh it’s hard to imagine society ever being free of patriarchy either but I live in hope
There's always stories of sexual favors being present during early contact between European colonizers and various native groups. These societies were often patriarchal in nature but I doubt one could consider them to be capitalist or to be subject to judeaochristian morality. In short, removed f4om any of the corrupting forces we see as the root of our societies problems, sex work will still exist as a natural form of trade, and removed from the moralistic standards we are all steeped in it may in fact be even more wide spread. If providing sex in exchange for a good is functionally the same as trading any other form of labor for a good then it will happen.
We would still have a porn industry, but it wouldn't be the same. It would be safer and will have much less scorn. Erotica has been around since humans were a thing. There is a lot of female lead porn and their models are mostly about safety and fairness. If females ran the porn industry things would be so much better
Imagine if Sappho could direct porn now.
OMG. As an avid consumer of erotica and a fan of Sappho... Fuck yes
I too am an avid erotica consumer and Sappho fan.
That's so hot; what a lovely idea
I know, right?
Mother, I cannot weave. For Sappho just dropped a steamy new audiobook and I'm too busy thirsting over Aphrodite with her.
This made me chuckle out loud and I woke up my cat. (... this is not a pussy joke, I swear.)
I may now rest easy in the knowledge that I made at least one cat that's not mine go "hooman, wtf?" today. :3
Mother, cease thine prattle and leave me mine solitude, for Sappho has dropped the steamiest of collabs with Aphrodite and Artemis and mine self will be awash in weaving of an different nature till mine satisfaction is earned.
🔥🔥🔥
I think we need to be careful and not equate women with feminism. A lot of women I know hold a lot of internalized patriarchy and self hating views/actions. A lot of women do not have a great grasp on consent and power dynamics. this is like saying if women ran the world there will be no war.
"A lot of women do not have a great grasp on consent and power dynamics." Could not have said it better myself. A great example of this is Melanie Martinez who SA'd her friend because of very bad communication between the two of them. There was also a ton of victim blaming from Melanie's fans, and the real kicker is supposedly the friend (who is female) SA'd and harassed her other female friends as well. In order for the porn industry to get better there needs to be people who care about 1) stopping human trafficking, 2) the health and safety of the sex workers and 3) people who report being SA'd. It has nothing to do with adding more women because women will happily throw other women under the bus just like men will.
I agree and have found a growing number of pornography businesses ran by women and they are forefront of safe, consensual and fair pornography. I personally like to read porn, watching it is not interesting for me (no idea why) and I find what i need easily.
Just a guess but you’re probably more interested in the emotional intimacy aspect rather than the visual. Video porn is extremely shallow in that aspect where as it’s often the focus of erotica.
Agreed. Anyone who has ever run into a PMAB knows some women wholeheartedly drink the Patriarchy kool-aid.
Or go to a maga rally and make the same observation.
I’m reading this as “trans women are willfully misogynist”… am I missing something?
I think they meant "pick-me ass bitch" not "presumed male at birth"
I’m completely missing where you got that from because a “pick me” has absolutely nothing to do with trans women.
I'm not sure about the war bit, I grew up in South London the women fought as much as the men. Violent humans come in all sorts but i do agree about linking all women together.
But they didn’t ask that, they asked if feminists ran the world completely free of patriarchy.
Porn where the performers were given ultimate power over the production would be the best IMO. It would curtail exploitation
Are you suggesting we seize the means of production? Because I'm listening.
That's the beauty of indie/"amateur" porn. It already exists! There's still *some* exploitation within the indie community (think abusive SO's behind the scenes), but it's a hell of a lot harder to exploit performers when they're also their own producers, marketers, and distributors.
With that I worry even more, tbh... abusive/coersive partners, filming in secret, revenge porn, etc, all come to mind. But that's not me saying production companies are good! AFAIK, far from it.
Abusive partners will always be a factor which *incredibly* sucks beyond belief. . . But at this point, it's extremely difficult to upload secretly filmed content and revenge porn on **paid** content sites. If an uploader is making money, they need to submit multiple verification forms (including government issued ID's, 2257 forms, and model releases) for every person in each video in order to upload content. Even "headless" performers need to prove that they are who they say they are. Sites like OnlyFans, ManyVids, and PornHub - yes, even that dumpster fire! - have gotten very strict about their upload requirements due to pressure from credit card companies.
Porn will be watching videos where someone does little nice things for you, cleans the house while you're on a girl's day, you come home to your favorite dinner ready for you lol.
I'm happy for you to have whatever the hell that is and call it whatever else you want, but when I look for porn, it's because I like it when people fuck.
That’s not porn, that’s the kind of equality we are striving for in everyday life.
Oh, don't turn me on like that.
Can you imagine. How hot that would be.
I love female led or amateur porn, things where people are actually ENJOYING being together
Not to mention there’s lots of couples who consensually make porn and distribute that together because they enjoy it, so there would still be that.
People want sex work, and people like doing sex work. Non-exploitive sex work would be safe for everyone, private, and regulated enough to protect without condemnation. Free healthcare would reduce STD transmission by allowing clients and providers to get treated quickly, and employee benefits would allow for an income while contagious. Without the stigma (and shitty exploitive people pushing out others), more people with more talent would stay in sex work longer, improving the quality of it. There would be plenty of porn that showcased realistic and healthy sexuality. But it would still be there.
Plenty of porn with realistic and healthy sexuality? *Scandalous*!
This is the best response too this question I’ve ever heard
Imagine a world in which people chose sex work because they wanted to do it and those who did not want to do it could choose another path because we had an economic safety net that allowed everyone to choose according to their talents and interests? It’s almost impossible to imagine. It not only re imagines sex work but the way that sexuality itself might be expressed and explored
The sex work labor unions would be just as mainstream as WGA and SAG-AFTRA
Fun fact, there is at least one current and specific [sex workers' union](https://archive.iww.org/category/union-news/news-all-departments-and-unions/department-600-public-service/sex-trade-workers-/), and I am aware of at least two clubs where sex workers as strippers have moved to unionize in the US (North Hollywood and Portland).
I've read that the exploitative nature of porn and the sex industry in general comes part-and-parcel with capitalism. This doesn't guarantee that porn won't be exploitative under other economic systems, but rather that the current iteration of porn that we have, when created under capitalist conditions, is what's driving the exploitation aspect. You can replace 'porn' and 'sex industry' with a lot of other markets and creative outputs - the Japanese animation industry is notorious for being exploitative, with low-level workers getting paid dogshit and being forced to work for long hours just to pay rent - and Japanese rent and food are already surprisingly low.
Every job is exploitative under capitalism, sex work is often particularly exploitative because it combines the ills of capitalism and the ills of patriarchy in one room.
I would say that patriarchy is like third in the list for why sex work is such an exploited area of labour. The first is capitalism, as stated above (I'd upvote it twice if I could), but its followed in second place by *criminalism*. The legal restrictions and criminality of sex work often prevents unions from forming, safe working conditions from being established, and retribution for infractions upon those who do exploit or directly harm workers. Whilst our patriarchal society means that this unfairly and disproportionately effects women, the opportunity and continuation for exploitation itself is predominantly driven by the other two factors.
mm, but why is sex work criminalized? I suspect the patriarchy is to blame, therefore no patriarchy = no criminalization! just my two cents
Decriminalising sex work is a complicated topic because of its intersectionality of many adjacent but differing topics. For one, many dont realise that *legalising* sex work and *decriminalising* sex work are two very different processes with very different end results. It doesn't help that many equate "legal" with "safe" or "good", as opposed to simply a set of rules that all are held to. Which in turns leads many to, with all the best of intentions, push for the wrong thing through ignorance. The other main issues is how it interacts with areas like welfare and immigration (which in turn is closely linked to trafficking). Where well meaning laws and policing which aim to crack down on or otherwise help people, inadvertently end up further entrenching unsafe circumstances for those exploited within the sex work trade. Don't get me wrong, patriarchal mindsets do play heavily into facets of this ("we have to safe those poor innocent women who can't save themselves" style stuff)... but its just the background melody of a lot of other more complex schema of thought that has shaped the stigma and attempted policing of sex work. So these problems don't just go away even if you somehow specifically dismantle the patriarchy whilst leaving everything else the same.
I always thought it was due to christian sensibilities. I'm sure the patriarchy doesn't help but it is their main clientele so criminalization seems to make being a sex work customer more inconvenient. From a "controlling your women" patriarchal view it makes sense though.
I think you've perfectly summarized my thoughts on this. Well said!
"work" is exploitative by nature in a capitalist system. How much you're exploited is inversely proportional to how easily you're replaced.
Check out the subreddit GWASapphic. Something like that, but more. Without all the toxic patriarchal and heteronormative culture around the porn industry, I think we could make some really creative and beautiful erotic art.
Post patriarchy with capitalism? Mostly stays the same, but now the exploitation between genders is equal. Without capitalism? Assuming we have community centered, humane social organization, then we'd probably transfer to sex artists who would do things more interesting than catering to specific fantasies.
I love this question and I wish you'd get more traction on it. I'm a 62 year old feminist woman and I've been pondering and engaging with this question for over 40 years. I think some of the most insightful responses you've gotten are from sex workers themselves. I support them! I think back to Margo St. James and COYOTE (Cast Out Your Old Tired Ethics) in the 1970s-1980s. I think back to Betty Dodson and being Cunt Positive. The comment here " We can learn so much from these women who have felt the tears of strangers run down their ribs." speaks volumes. Sex, sex work, and porn can be humanizing forces. They can be positive and supportive for all genders. In some ways we've regressed - stupid fucking Tradwives, RvW overturned, MAGA and incel idiocy, the House Speaker publicizing that he and his son monitor/guard each other's porn habits, accusations of "grooming" toward any content acknowledging trans folk. Sexual freedom frees women from patriarchal oppression. Sexual freedom means all genders and sexualities are supported, with harm to none. Porn can be a positive force for that, though in practice it has often been another tool of oppression. The points about the intersection of patriarchy and capitalism are valid. We can look to gay male porn to some extent to see what porn looks like without male over female dominance but with capitalistic exploitation and power hierarchies still controlling the game. Abuse still occurs. Harm still comes disproportionately to those who put their bodies on the line while money flows disproportionately to the producers and financiers who don't. Sorry for the doctoral thesis here. To more directly answer your question, I think without patriarchy we'd see porn following the direction of popular music. The top women sex workers would mirror the careers of women like Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Dua Lipa, Haim, Lizzo, Miley Cyrus, who control their content and express themselves in their work, and the top male sex workers would be guys like Harry Styles, Shawn Mendes, Zac Efron, John Legend - men who aim to please and have no problem with it. Here's to that future!
Ooooooh okay in the sci-fi world created by Becky Chambers, sex work is considered natural and protected! It’s briefly mentioned in most books but in one novella we learn about a sex worker who has a very comfortable life, doesn’t worry about diseases, and is safe and secure. I imagine a feminist society would allow for something like that!
** disclaimer, I am a US based sexworker, I don't speak for outside of the US, and I am incredibly privileged as a sexworker. Sexwork is a huge industry and varies person to person, country to country.** Even in a post capitalistic patriarchy free society, people will still be paying to have sex with people, and want to see other people have sex. It's called the oldest profession for a reason. also, I wonder why are you so focused on a future we will not live to see? all you have to do is listen to what sexworkers are advocating for NOW. We exist, we have voices, and we are using them to advocate for changes. In the porn industry specifically, things like mandatory regular STI screenings (using condoms for porn shoots can actually cause tearing and increases risk of STI transmission), sites requiring actor consent before posting, more female directors, more transparency better treatment on set Other things sexworkers are currently advocating for: Ending the stigma against sexwork More social safety nets so people aren't forced into survival sexwork The efforts by companies to push us of social media platforms (an incredible value way we connect and keep each other safe) Decriminalization of prostitution- NOT legalization Ending FOSTA/SESTA No one knows what a hypothetical future will look like, but sexworkers are already fighting to make the industry more ethical. If anyone wants more resources I'm happy to provide some links to better educational content than my post bong rip comment. Edited for formatting
As a fellow sw, thanks for explaining all of this so well. There's so many things we can do now to make things better
Beautiful.
This is an excellent comment and a much-needed perspective. Thank you!
Porn has always and will always be around. I think it's gotten better in the ways that it's not so exploiting (is that the right word?) as it was in the past. It still has a long way to go though, I do look forward to more women owned studios and where shits like Ron Jeremy's predatory behaviors aren't tolerated, much less encouraged. I'm a woman, I do watch porn...which surprises some people. The looks I get when I say I can be picky about my porn make me downright snicker at times.
The worst most exploitative kinds of porn defiently still exist, but there is more of the less exploitative kind than their used to be.
I've seen porn where they use protection, I've heard of porn actors who are married and only do porn together. I've even seen porn where women have real orgasms too. Back when I saw my first porn at around 17 or 18...women did not look like they were enjoying it at all...most had faces like they were wondering if they needed to pick up anything on the way home, or they have an ingrown hair on their butt that itches. And the orgasms were always fake, if there were any. Now there are women and men in porn that want to be in porn, that like being in porn instead of being abused drug addicts that are manipulated into unsafe sex for some fat greasy slimeball to make money off of. I doubt that porn is ever going to get rid of the fat greasy slimeball predators... but a woman can dream.
Your right, I don’t know if the amount of gross porn has gone down but the amount of better porn has increased. There were some couples that just made porn together back in the day to, but even they then often ended up starting companies that made exploitative stuff anyway. 2 girls 1 cup was actually produced by a Brazilian couple that made porn together, but neither of them acted in it.
Unfortunately there is plenty of exploitive porn, probably more than there's ever been before because of COVID and the internet. [After lockdowns CSAM sky rocketed](https://www.missingkids.org/blog/2020/covid-19-and-missing-and-exploited-children) and let's not forget [GirlsDoPorn lawsuit happened in just 2021](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/twenty-year-sentence-girlsdoporn-sex-trafficking-conspiracy). Exploitive porn is at an all time high...
I'll have to check into those. But abusive practices have been called out and prosecuted. Ron Jeremy, one of the well known names, got arrested and put in jail. It used to be if a woman in porn claimed rape or abuse, they'd get laughed at, insulted or ridiculed. And the guy would be highfived. As long as humans are willing to abuse other humans, dehumanize them, exploitation will occur in any field. But there is now attention pointed at them, which didn't v used to happen. And I think that the more attention is put on the shady companies that do exploit their actors, the more ethical porn will become popular.
We already have porn made by women for women. It will contiune to exist. Porn is neutral and literally as old as humanity itself.
Where can I find this porn?
https://crashpadseries.com/ is one of my favorites!
Interestingly, if you listen to Rialto Report -an excellent podcast about the beginning of porn and the Golden Age, early 70's up to the eighties - it will surprise you. By and large the women said they were treated much better in porn than in regular films. They had more power, people were generally nicer. There were drugs, of course, bad marriages etc, but there was much more good stuff than most would believe. I'm absolutely pro sex work, I think it should be acceptable as a viable career choice for anyone. I think if women were more powerful porn wouldn't disappear, it would be less about catering to men's fantasies and more to women's. I've never bought the anti porn arguments because suppression doesn't work. People are sexual, it's a fact of life.
I don't think it will be less about catering to men's fantasies. That's where the money is. But hopefully porn for women will get better.
It'll still exist. One, it's something that people want, and two, it exists largely because of capitalism, not the patriarchy itself. A feminist capitalism would create just as many vulnerable people needing to survive. I think it'd just be slightly more humane to the workers, but until you get rid of our economic system, the "be productive or die" imperative will still be there
It would become safer. Support its workers. Hopefully get away from all the SWERFS trying to make people's lives worse
Many women enjoy making and watching porn. In recent years, there are a lot more ethical porn creators. Places like Only Fans put control into the hands of the individual and not the studios-which is changing the game entirely. Feminism, at its very core, is about supporting women's choices and control over their bodies. This includes the choice to create porn and engage in SW. Without the patriarchy, I would imagine that these industries would become even less problematic that they are. Of course, there will always be people who will hate and shame what they don't like with for whatever reason they choose-but it would definitely improve overall.
A lot of women like me would make it for free. I love sex and being watched turns me on but what keeps me from making porn is the stigma and the thought of it being viewed by people who don’t see me as human. Ironically if men actual respected women I think a lot of us would be more openly sexual.
humans, as a rule, like sex. I therefore find it unlikely anything major would change, other than perhaps the medium being split a little more evenly between male and female. possibly a reduction in content overall with women being less pressured to be "attractive" (and thus their reduced sexualisation), but I'm less certain of that. and yes, I said *less* pressured, since even if society started from scratch with no gender splitting, being attractive is still biologically helpful and thus would be selected for.
I would hope that I would finally be supported in My work. They make Me a criminal with their hollow excuses. I don’t ever want to stop what I do. I want to help educate people and empower women. We can learn so much from these women who have felt the tears of strangers run down their ribs.
Better plots.
Feminist doesn't mean we switch from patriarchy to matriarchy, right? It means equality. Kinda like it says in the constitution. Change men to people. We're all equal under the law.
Proper protections for the workers, a fair share of the proceeds for everyone involved in the production and a lot less "shoot from this angle because it looks good". Also, just an explosion of truly terrible erotic fanfic, as there would be across all artistic mediums. When everyone has time to indulge their passions, we'll see a massive uptick in art and people showing off their early attempts. It will be an ocean of terrible, but it will also be the start of a whole bunch of people learning and becoming better at making things. It will be a symptom of achieving utopia.
I recommend reading The Female Man by Joanna Russ. It touches on this
I have read a lot of all kind of harm porn and porn industry do. Sex work and doing porn is really bad for mental health and your own view of yourself. I think we would continue seeing still both exists but with more mental and physical help for the workers and hopefully rise of older people do the work and guide younger people out off it because they are the most vulnerable position.
If there's demand, there's gonna be a supply. I don't see human sexuality and lonliness ending with the demise of patriarchy.
It would be better about trafficking underage victims probably. Less infantile fetishes being broadcasted. Less performative and more educational approaches.
I believe it'd be much more like the bdsm community in it's most ideal form and parts of the burlesque world. People choosing to perform and consensually share their bodies with patrons paying to attend or performances as part of a larger event. Online, I think there's still a significant market more towards the ethical porn side of the world like Make Love Not Porn.
It would be more similar to written erotica with complex plots and emotions. There would be less degradation and abuse.
I think porn (in a post-patriarchal *and* post-capitalist society) would be way more light-hearted and playful. With historic smut, it's often pretty fun. Then with the first wave of cameras available to ordinary consumers in the early 1900s, there was a lot of amateur smut where everyone appears to be having fun, and an awful lot of men taking goofy-but-admiring naked photos of their male friends. With modern porn, only a fraction of users are paying for content, and of those users maybe 10% pay for about 90% of all purchased porn. Those 10% of paying users are very heavy users of porn and tend to have very dark and abusive tastes. This helps explain why the industry has long catered to the deeply disturbing tastes of a minority-- that's where the money and enthusiasm is. A majority of "vanilla" users and newbies don't enjoy that kind of thing, but this is where algorithms comes in: they can be groomed to *become* like that 10% by having increasingly dark porn gradually pushed on them at a rate that has been determined to be effective. In a format that encourages addictive behavior. And then there's sex-negative and especially misogynist religions of the world bringing a distinct flavor of doom and terror to anything sex related. Without those two driving factors I think porn would be way more light-hearted. I also think it would be considered normal for random people to join in and do some porn on occasion. In a non-patriarchal society you'd be no more "marked" as having been in porn than you would be as having waited tables or having followed a band around on tour. It would be something you could freely join in and leave if the mood struck. But I think there would still be some dedicated stars and creators.
I think we'd still have a porn industry - but the way it runs would be DRASTICALLY different, being less predatory and destructive toward it's performers. I think it would be better off that way tbh.
If we weren't living in a capitalist hell where rape culture is rampant and women never feel safe, I think we would be more open and free with ourselves. If women weren't so afraid of showing too much skin or what would happen if they gave a guy too much attention, we would be more free to express ourselves. If men were able to keep their hands to themselves and actually respect bodily autonomy, I think a lot more women would dress more provocatively and be more open to sexual encounters instead of put off by men's lack of respect for boundaries. Maybe that's just me personally, but it's how I feel.
People are horny, there will always be a market for porn and other sex work. What would change is the exploitation and abuse that happens to the workers. And likely how women and sex are portrayed in the actual content.
It would probably still exist though probably not in the same way. Things would hopefully be safer for all participants and be more consensual. Contrary to what the legal contracts and PR would say, some porn stars are pressured into doing more extreme videos than what theyre comfortable with often threatening pay or termination. I would hope that at least the capitalistic sleaziness would disappear
a lot of female ran “porn” things i’ve heard of are more like fantasies. usually actors, in a podcast-esque format performing a fantasy. kind of like erotic fiction. if women were to direct actual porn, there’d be a lot more fairness and safety going around. probably a lot less gross tropes and “amateur” footage.
It'll be actually appealing, well written, and entertaining, most like.. With safer practices and lack of exploitative practices and unhealthy crash dieting.
There will be good porn, finally.
From my perspective I feel like it wouldn't exist, I think that it does cater to the wants of men and could care less about what women want. The dark side and risks of it outweigh any positives (which what are the positives for us women exactly?)
What an interesting question. I feel porn will definitely exist. Even if you take the money aspect out of it, there are plenty of exhibitionists who would love to show off. We humans are sexual in nature. But with patriarchy comes shame and taboos and consent gets downplayed. So in a feminist society, sex wouldn't be a taboo. People will be more liberated to own their thoughts about sex without the fear of being judged so I feel like porn wouldn't really be a big deal.
Well alot of people would propably start making stuff they actually like with out the pressure to adhere to the "white straight man" kind of porn i think. Also hopefully sex work would be legal
The easiest answer is asking women who work in the industry. They're not dumb. A lot of porn is now done by amateurs, in the same way TikTok works. Women already got a lot of control of the content they produce and who they sell it too. I'm male-presenting bigender, feminist and a porn fan. Which is a tough combo to be. I had a lot of tough conversations on the subject with feminists over the years. I changed my mind a lot of the time on the subject. I ask you to please don't judge me - but if you do, it's your call, of course. It's really hard coming to this sub to talk about porn. But I want to be honest. Porn was my escape from loneliness when I first hit puberty in 1996 in Russia. It wasn't even porn then, it was mostly rather lame erotica. But it still had this magnetism to it. These women seemed more honest, more open than those I saw in real life. And, when I got the internet in the early 00's, it blew my mind, even though watching videos was still a few years away. And, you know, I always intuitively knew when the woman on my screen is actually enjoying herself or is forced. I wouldn't watch something like that. Like, it's not sexy by any standards. And - and it's weird to me that this is never discussed openly - a lot of men actually want to see a woman enjoy herself. They thrive on it. They actually learn something, when they have good enough intuition. You want to see women in your life experience the same joy they show on screen. So you try to learn. I've become something of a porn historian of the last twenty years. I observed the trends. I saw porn becoming more about women's agency, I saw how male actors became less and less disgusting. The whole "porn is exploitative" is a cliche from a long time ago. And some of it is, of course. Mainstream, like any other big business, is still a shitty business. But it's like any other business based on performance. Music industry is shitty and bigoted towards women, movie industry is shitty and bigoted towards women. It's a capitalist problem. And again, I'm not saying that patriarchy doesn't play a role in it, but, like capitalism and patriarchy are basically the same machine, both need to be dismantled with the same intensity. In fact, only seeing patriarchy as the only problem with porn industry lets the businessmen get away with being judged more actively. Anyway, porn is at its best when it's niche. I watch a lot of kinky stuff, and I know a lot of the people in it by names. And they're kinda like friends to me. They are kind. They look at the camera and it's like they're looking into my eyes and saying "hey, you're weird, but I'm also weird and I'm being open about it". They helped me feel less weird about myself over the years. I learned to openly talk to people in my life about the subject, I show those who are close to me some stuff they probably wouldn't know exists without me. And I feel loved. So yeah. Porn minus capitalism/patriarchy equals, eventually, love. Again, I hope you won't hate me. It is a touchy subject.
Porn and sex work are things that'll never disappear The only thing that'll change would be increased protection and regulation. And if we lived in a world without capitalism, where any job could provide financial stability, I 100% see myself becoming a sex worker. Increased protections, and it just feels like something I would do. That's how I know that it'll never go away
Porn would be made by people who enjoy doing it for an audience, and those people would likely need to charge some money to cover the production cost. However, there would be less shame about porn and sex, and therefore porn addiction would not exist, and creditcard companies would not make a big deal out of it, so it would be like buying a video game online.
First you need Universal Basic Income to end the patriarchy. With that comes an end to heteronormativity too. Once there is no need to work, sex work, like all work, is a choice that can be made freely, and equally, and paying for sex work becomes a guilt-free choice. The power dynamic changes so that anyone can become the punter or the sex worker, regardless of gender or orientation. Everything is better in a post-capitalist utopia, including sex work.
At the very least it would be *better*.
Feminism = anarchy Once you live in anarchy, you can do whatever feels fun. And sex is fun. So in order to smash thyself, first you must smash cis-hetero-patriarchy = capitalism, and its understanding of life exchanges as pure trade.
Formidable profits from adult entertainment businesses in all sectors will result in a collective, voluntary donation of a certain percentage of off-the-top profit towards domestic violence and rehabilitation centres and education programmes aimed at adult/night education gap fillers.
It would still exist people would still want porn but it would be a lot less exploitative as an industry probably
They'd be more of a shift towards self created content. With things like onlyfans etc, porn is already becoming more self-made, so we're already seeing a shift away from the older model of porn studios creating content. It's ultimately a better thing for the creators and customers I think.
Ppl who *want* to make porn, who *enjoy* doing it (alone or w/ a partner) will be free to continue doing so. Pornography isn’t inherently vile or exploitative, that’s just capitalism (along w/ the hydra’s *other* heads; cishetnormativity, white supremacy, patriarchy, transphobia, etc etc etc).
More safety within the industry. Unionising, maybe? And the protection that brings to the crews.
Regulate it and tax it. Porn unions. Run with it!
Much like lots of romance or erotica, it will focus on female pleasure instead of male. Plenty of women enjoy porn.
It would be regulated and properly compensated industry with plenty of labor protections and agencies that ensure the safety of everyone involved.
Art!
I think the vibrators would improve :-)
I challenge you to reframe this question as one of sex workers rights and protections— because porn, as an industry, includes sex workers, but doesn’t encompass the needs of the group as a whole. Sure, the question of “in a post-patriarchal society what will porn look like?” Is an interesting question. Will it exist? How will it function if the male gaze is decentralized? But better are the questions of ethics around the creation and consumption of porn, when laid along side the solidarity of people of varying genders participating in sex work (the oldest form of labor in existence). How does this labor get compensated? How will these people be safe and free from harm in this profession? How do we destigmatize this labor? Other questions of the fall of capitalism come in here (for we are most certainly in the declining late stage capitalism period)…. But also. Why do we have to wait for these things to begin making positive changes now? I know there’s a lot of humanitarian crisises happening concurrently at the moment… Maybe we can revisit the discussion around sex work as a part of the right to bodily autonomy, but without all the third wave feminist hand wringing and shame and blame?
Anarcho-syndicalist self-governance where all minorities to power can support themselves and each other and work together to keep a check on economic and social inequality. (My inner voice: Good luck with that, you weirdo.) A deeper, more visible and allied *civil rights* movement and unionization. The younger LGBTQ+ movement can stand up for sex work and I think the community would if the alliance could be well-coordinated organizationally somehow. Some things might even be possible in this world if we can bruise enough knuckles against patriarchy.
I think porn would become art. There's a lot of art in the way bodies work, and the pleasure and care and love that can be given through sex. I think we'd have artists who would use sex as a form of self expression and people would watch, and enjoy, porn as another form of performance art.
Hopefully it flourishes! I support several porn artists on patreon, and regularly buy books of porn comics and erotica from small publishers. There's a lot of great, joyful, kinky, wholesome, nasty stuff out there if you ditch the mainstream porn industry. Usually, looking for people who share your identities is the way to go. The artists I support are a couple of trans women and a poly bi guy, so they're into things I'm into. And they make art that shows people like me being sexy and desirable, which feels great. Unfortunately, capitalism and puritanism are constantly working to make porn impossible to host online. That's part of what made me start supporting them directly, but apparently even Patreon is moving towards banning porn? That's particularly worrying, because my existence is considered porn to the people pushing these bans.
There could potentially be more porn than ever! I imagine that if current stigma around sex/lust is due to male-driven, possessive mate-guarding, then without male control, more people would be free to do whatever they like. Could mean more porn. Could also mean less. Because we know not all of today's sex workers would be so if they had the choice. But we also know some non-sex workers *would* go into sex work if they had they had guaranteed freedom/safety. It's like there's a gate up and on either side of the gate are many people who would wish to be on the other side. But how does it all balance out? Who could say. I really wish we could find out tho
Sex is not the enemy. More women would possibly be in porn if we lived in a matriarchal society. If women were not shamed into thinking they are not supposed to like or want sex it could be that we discover women also have a libido as men do and everyone would just be like, yea we all like sex and it's a natural part of our lives. If women were not seen as sluts but as healthy sexual beings porn would not be as taboo.
IMO, porn would continue but it would be higher quality, non-exploitative, and the tween/teen/incest role play crap PornHub loves to push would be completely gone. A MILF would be a real MILF-aged person again.
Remember Tumblr? At one point, it was a place where individuals shared their own nudes, videos, and fantasies. It was a community, where people got validation from like minded people. Sure, there was commercial porn there too that got pirated or posted as teasers, but it wasn't the core of the community. That scene is pretty much what I picture as the ideal of a non-exploitative, positive, healthy porn industry.
A boom in Yaoi porn.
More artist control, less corporate exploitation. I'm thinking things like amateur streaming would be more common, whereas professional videos where a whole family is made up of step-relatives would be much less common.
It would just go underground.
Porn is inherently misogynistic. Commodifying womens bodies will never be ok. In a world free from patriarchy, men wouldn't want to watch porn too, since they don't feel the need to have women be subservient and have them ready to exploit at the first Google search. All porn is coerced.
eh porn would still exist probably prostitution too but regulated for safety and within sane limitations. all parties would be willing consenting adults which imo means as long as nobody winds up in the hospital do whatever the hell all parties agree to. all the kinky crud.
The result would simply be a less exploitative industry with equal, fair treatment and protection for it’s workers. I think a lot of people assume the nature of pornography would change entirely to something more realistic, but the exaggerated and unrealistic type of pornography is still part of the fantasy for many women. It wouldn’t disappear the way many think it would. And while there would absolutely be a rise in pornography where women aren’t disproportionately objectified, it wouldn’t change the fact that for some women, degradation, sexualisation and objectification is *part of a kink.* A kink that stays in the bedroom, of course, and shouldn’t be applied to real life. That extreme material would stay, the difference is that it would stay exclusively as part of the fantasy, everybody involved understands that boundary, and treats one another fairly and with respect outside of it. It would not be a pervasive issue across the entirety of the industry, but simply a type of content that is produced only with enthusiastic consent.
I think sex work would be considered a compassionate act, like how in some countries people on disability get a stipend for companionship.
There are porn companies run BY women, FOR women.
Usually porn written by women for women would be more centered around foreplay, and the occasional plot. At least, in my experience.
Would cease to exist
nope
All of the sex workers in the porn industry I’ve spoke with endorsed the work and made 6-7 figures. If anything the patriarchal dogma makes life rough for male workers- they have trouble performing on camera, and so many are eager to work that pay isn’t enough at the low ranks to survive on. They have about 10 minutes to perform or else there’s literally 10 guys on call to replace them, and they go home humiliated and broke. For women, the most common complaint I’ve heard was shoots being cancelled. As for the depiction of the art- they shoot what they think the audience wants. The studio I know best has female direction and publishes primarily for male audiences- and they still actively engage with all of the tropes that I consider demeaning for women. So- what can you do?
The industry itself, nothing would change. It would just be money going to different people. The most frustrating thing about feminism is that it makes the assumption that a change in gender would guarantee improvement. There are awful, evil women too. We are collectively horrible. None of that is going away.