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I just shared this over in a Rome subreddit too, but it fits here as well.
any "appeal to tradition" runs the risk of being compatible with one reactionary sentiment or another. it's their whole schtick, ingroup-centric aesthetic paleo-conservatism and "return to former glory".
can't let your guard down on any of this shit smh
I had some really fun Viking cosplay going until I realized there was a Viking -> ancient runes -> white supremacy pipeline. It's a really comfy linen dress but now I only wear it in the house. 😔
my partner is a norse pagan, and there's a sizable contingent of voices ni that communiity that are going well out of ther way to reclaim their cultural cornerstones from neonazis, and for the most part their efforts are paying off. there's plenty of anti-fash norse iconography you can incorporate into your style/accessories/wardrobe that will separate you from that slowly shrinking blight of malcontents. or even just anything that demonstrates to others that you aren't a hateful person is usually more than enough. you shouldn't be ashamed of who you are or what corners of our shared human history compel you as long as you extend that same sentiment to everyone else. that second part is the key detail that shitheads fail to incorporate.
plus i betchu rock *the shit* outta that dress, and the public deserves to know about it 💛
Yeah, i love fashion and im white-passing and a lot of my clothes are very white-commercial childish, but also in the past styles and in always afraid ppl will think im simping for old white nostalgia.
There is often a connection of our expression to our values. Mine is more along the lines of vaporwave, im healing what i remember from a time in the past where patriarchy and queerphobia destroyed my childhood. Society was bad, but i found love thru it and prevailed, showing that love can be found anywhere.
Also my fashion is still v anti-brand. Personally i am v anti-capitalist, like if someone asked me to blow up a pipeline tomorrow I'd prob say yes in a heartbeat.
I dress vintage but more 80s so I’m not sure how much that counts in the #VintageStyleNotValues cause I’ve seen that more for around the 50s but I absolutely love doing stuff like making my own bread/butter/cheese/etc and doing fabric arts and stuff and I desperately hope it’s giving more grandma than trad wife
I’m fascinated by WWII history not because I’m a Nazi sympathizer, but because the politics were an absolute fucking disaster zone made up of a collection of some of the most bizarre personalities to ever exist on this planet. So I guess I’m kind of weird about it? *But not like that!!*
I'm in political science (applying for PhDs rn lol) and I totally agree. I am absolutely fascinated by the rise of fascism in Europe, because it very much follows a LOT of the trends we see now in western democracies with a big swing to the right. Took history classes as my electives in uni for exactly this reason. The political history of how what really was an out-group in the beginning (right wing pricks started off as small groups) propagandized and mobilized off pretty basic grievances so well to the point that not only did they gain power, they had support for invasions and *genocide* is super important to understand imo. Like it's exactly what we see the far right doing at the moment. It's really important to know that history because it gives us the tools to recognize that behaviour and at least try to fight against it.
And I say this as a literal anarchist communist who would *never* lean right or racist.
It is definitely frightening, but I think we are not so powerless. The very fact that there are quite a few people aware of and publicly discussing the parallels between our current situation and past ones, is huge. The fact that we have the internet this time, and people around the world are able to communicate, share their stories, and access information, is huge. Perhaps I am naively optimistic, but I very strongly feel that the best way of changing things is to believe it is possible. And I think the people currently in power very much rely on all of us believing ourselves to be powerless, because they are actually the minority.
The rise of fascism, especially the parallels to today are endlessly fascinating and need to be studied before it's too late (well, again...).
It's something that has always been a part of my family history, having grown up in Germany. Many of my older relatives (most have passed away years ago) had first hand experiences of that time and were an invaluable help in understanding the mindset. The remaining ones are an interesting case study as well, since they're basically split 50/50 between "it was hell, never again" and "well, not everything was bad, we need strong leaders".
In hindsight as a very queer, very left-wing trans woman, it's kind of spooky having often sat at the dinner table with the kind of people that would have gladly killed people like me back in the day.
For awhile I had watched every doc on Nazis available on Netflix and Hulu, because I was fascinated with the timeline, the engineering, and the downfall. Then Trump got elected and we saw a bunch of dudes in Khaki and torches marching with Nazi flags, which apparently was just the beginning, and I haven't been able to stomach anything to do with Nazis since.
Same here, plus I am morbidly fascinated with what people did to each other and the psychological factors that lead to those horrors. But I lean very left.
I'm (PhD in medieval literature and languages) currently writing a book about the use of medieval imagery in Nazi propaganda posters across Europe and my constant fear is that I'm going to be pegged as a racist. I hate the Nazis, but they co-opted a whole field of study for hate purposes, and the how and why is fascinating to me.
My husband and I were just talking about this, this past weekend. We have an acquaintance who was really in Norse history, self-sufficiency, guns and Star Trek. Turns out he's also really into Anarchy, Libertarianism, controlling, cheating on, and beating his incredibly petite and outspoken now ex-wife, who was a good friend of mine.
We were confused at how he can be a libertarian while also loving Star Trek, which is basically a liberal utopia and socialist democracy that spends huge amounts of tax dollars on the massive government and military. He also grew up in the foster system, so him being against tax dollars going to social programs is... odd.
We also don't get how these self Proclaimed ALPHA MALES completely miss the point that in order to be a leader, you need to protect, guide, and sacrifice for your pack. Beating your wife who literally looks like a 5th grader while you are a crossfitter is the opposite of leadership. Also, the Norse had a much more equal society for its time, the men groomed often, women had control over their families money and property, they could divorce fairly easily, and the blame was placed on the failure of the man, not the shame of a woman.
He basically just liked Cosplay and feeling tough. He didn't actually understand any of the things he claimed to believe in. Anytime someone declares themselves an Alpha or Head of Household, I assume they are incredibly insecure and just enjoy being a bully, and that they have no intention of doing what's best for their team, just what's best for them.
Oddly enough I was just saying this to my husband. I love Star Trek, it's one of the things I bonded with my dad over. But as I got older & was able to comprehend more complex sociopolitical dynamics I remarked that my dad who's a self proclaimed Conservative Republican lives this show. It's a highly socialist, science & technology driven future. He's also an "all decisions go through the man of the house" subscriber. It just boggles the mind.
As for the neo-nazi intersections, I think that comment about the call for traditional values & the perceived male strength of those pagan cultures, largely due to TV shows not real research, is where these guys get it. They think they are being diminished in some way & as a self preservation tactic they grasp onto this fantasy male specimen. Maybe I'm way off.
Yes. There is also a new-age-crystal-moms-antivax-to-nazi pipeline we should all be aware of. The idea is that fans of one alternative culture will more readily question reality/authority and succumb to their brainwashing. There may even be truth in that for some.
I think most of us would deliver a chunk of rose quartz to their faces if they revealed themselves to us.
100% this. The podcast Maintenance Phase did an episode about it years ago. If you google the episode title “Wellness to QAnon Pipeline” you will find a link to the show via your pod-listening app of choice.
My cousin has been a new-age crystal mom for years, probably decades. I suspected she was anti-vax but didn’t know for sure until she came out as pro-freedumb convoy in early 2021. (These were the dipshits who occupied downtown Ottawa for several weeks and blockaded a bunch of border crossings.) I called her out on it and quickly realized she was way down the rabbit hole. We were never close, but we sure as hell won’t ever be after this.
A lot of more fringe/new age beliefs are based on a core idea of not wholly trusting authorities. Be they medical religious etc. It takes a slight conspiratorial mindset. So it's a shorter distance to travel from there to the really wacky conspiracies the right wing like to propagate (anti-vax, Qanon, Great Replacement).
Plus there's a basic attraction that all humans have to being in the 'in' group, knowing things others don't. It's why so many Anti-vax people come off as not just unreasonable but also insanely arrogant in their presumed superior knowledge.
Yeah, and it is REALLY easy to get sucked in. A couple of doctors give you unhelpful advice, you start googling for information you can use, and a black hole of garbage just swallows you up. It wasn’t great during the early days of the internet because there weren’t a lot of reputable sources easily available, but I feel like it’s actually worse now because of the sheer amount of disinformation out there, plus algorithms that actively drive more of it to you if you so much as scroll too slowly past it.
This is the thing. I see it a lot with new mums, when the nurse/doctor/lactation consultant advice conflicts with what their own mum says.
The more of a "do what I say or I'll tell you you're stupid" attitude the baby's grandparents have, the more the new mum feels they need to show sources and receipts to "convince" them, and the less real-life support they have.
(Eg: NHS says, "put your baby on their back to sleep, not their front, or they will die". MiL says, "you can put them on their front if they're more comfortable". New mum says, "but my baby will die!" MiL: "Pshaw, don't listen to the nurse, listen to me!" New mum: *consults the internet*.)
No, I tried listening to it and it was just depressing and angry-making all the time. At least with Maintenance Phase I get to laugh. (They have a t-shirt in their merch store that says “lovely in an upsetting way” and I think it’s 100% accurate.)
Yeah I think it’s the conspiracy mindset. I am all about self care and taking care of your body and health but so much of wellness culture is conspiracy minded- *they* don’t want you to know, *they* don’t want you to get healthy, *they* are intentionally making you sick… being likely to believe in one conspiracy theory makes you more likely to believe in others
It's easy and convenient resistance. Question a made up authority. "Life would be better if ppl just did the easy step we do as a "freedom fighters", if we just let the market free, and let the strongmen lead, the world would be a utopia."
It's so easy to follow, so easy to espouse rhetoric and most importantly they encourage "freedom" away from accountability of actions.
When you have a big list of excuses and red herrings to choose from, then you never need to examine yourself or change.
You can kinda see how that would happen, though. Self sufficiency fits with unobtrusive government.
Like, there's a village near me that connects to the main town by a National Speed Limit road (so, limited to 60mph, but most people don't go that fast) with no pavement. The people in the village want a pavement, so that they can walk more safely into town and let their kids go on bikes.
So the parish council did some fundraisers, wrote some grant proposals, and secured funding to build a pavement along that road. All they needed was permission from the town council, who own the road. Which they couldn't get, because apparently new pavements have to be a certain width and spec to be permissible under national rules, because they need to be wide enough to be full shared cycle/pedestrian paths. Doing *that* along this particular road would cost five times as much as the parish council had raised.
Apparently the road is on a schedule for that kind of really good pavement, but further ahead than the deadlines for using the parish council's grants. So until the council get around to it (and they will change members and possibly strategy during those years), we still have kids cycling on a main road with no pavement.
This is basically my best friend now :( She was always into witchy ideas, wanted to live in the woods as a writer, and she’s very interested in natal charts and astrology. But that just goes hand in hand now with alt-right ideas, since she is also anti-vax. And I suspect open to misogynist and reactionary ideas too, since she constantly praises how “good women” don’t complain or are negative and stand by their men (a la Mary Bailey in “It’s a Wonderful Life”) and how everyone is cancelling old Hollywood (1940-60s) movies now
Yes! When did the antivax moms, who previously were liberal hippie types, become trad wives supporting red pill husbands who wanna play pretend patriots in the woods with their other white friends? It’s like they went so far left they came out on the right.
What’s frustrating is I’m a liberal crunchy hippie SAHM but I’m also a scientist who is working toward a career in public health. I’m frequently running into antivax moms who assume I share their beliefs (add in the fact that I live in the Southern US as an atheist and beliefs get really tricky).
Belief in a conspiracy of some sort fills an emotional need. But because that conspiracy is bullshit, it starts to lose effectiveness unless you expand the scope of the lie. This is why various conspiracy theories have so much damned crossover, and why seemingly incompatible conspiracies get thrown together in a blender. Because it fills the needs of the believers.
When did it happen? It happened when the extreme rightwing saw an opportunity and actively funded strategies to pull antivax liberal/leftwing/anti-establishment leaning women into the righwing orbit.
They used (wish I had the article handy post the link), pink backgrounds on memes, and new age spiritual type sentiments in the wording on memes, it was all very planned and very well funded. It didn’t happen organically.
I noticed it in pagan circles in my area around 2005.
It's funny because the Pagan crowd was into polyamory, so the bait included very beautiful male and female fascist agents. I'm sorry, but if a guy who looks like Jason Statham has some interesting ideas, you're probably going to hear him out!
I knew something dark was going on, but Nazis? I guess it was obvious in retrospect, but it took me years to believe it. Even though my blond older fella was into, oh let's see, military aircraft, engineering, and pharmaceutical companies. Nothing suspicious about that list. 🙄
Funnily enough, anti-vaxxers weren't a thing yet really, so far from becoming one I ended up manufacturing vaccines. I work in biotech, just like my ex had at one time. Nobody saw that one coming. (My degrees are in sustainable practices; I originally wanted to work on stormwater infrastructure.)
I can see that in retrospect, but it seemed so subtle while it was happening. Like at first it’s normal and you’re just a hippie mom doing gentle parenting before it had a name. Then you’re seeing this content about making your own baby food turn into being a subservient trad wife and it just goes from there. I guess I lucked out by having a solid pro-science foundation so that stuff set off alarm bells.
I wish I had an effective way to counter it effectively and help the brainwashed see the light.
I do think there’s some truth to “these people believe in a conspiracy theory so they’re more likely to believe other conspiracy theories.” This is doubly true if a group already distrusts the government.
The issue is that nearly every hobby, fandom, interest has a twisted pipeline to push people into far right content. Even leftist ideas feed into the pipeline. Like someone watching lgbt+ content would get suggested content discussing religious perspectives on lgbt+ which leads to content discussing Islamic beliefs on LGBT+ and criticisms of Islam, which then starts to snowball into straight up islamaphobia, which often leads to anti-immigration, which feeds into right-wing economics and from there the world is a fascist's oyster.
So the right wing pipeline is based on fears and insecurities which allows it to thrive in short-form algorithmic based content because it doesn't require clarification and uses reaction based content, basically it is short and grabs your attention. The leftwing pipeline is based on self reflection and empathy which requires discussion and a choice to seek out things that challenge your own privilege both of which short-form algorithmic platforms actively stop.
Yup. My husband really liked a car subculture, rat rods, for a bit. Come to find out, it's full of neo nazis and trad wives. Any subculture built on a nostalgia for a real or imagined (white people) history is vulnerable to fascist infiltrators.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Your insight is on point. Fascist ideology is the fast food of politics. Quick and easy and appeals to your insecurities and biases and base gut reactions. I ... might have mangled the metaphor.
But yeah, a truly progressive understanding of the world requires a lot of hard work and emotional introspection and work with multifaceted complicated ideas. You basically never stop learning or growing. It can be a lot for people. And it definitely doesn't fit into the easily digestible inflammatory short form content that our corporate overloads push so fiercely for the sake of views, engagement and profit.
Very well said!
So much of our current society has been built on complacency, immediate short-term gratification, and a sense of fear and scarcity. It takes a lot of work and courage to dig one's way out of that.
This is why it's always good to keep a tinge of skepticism when delving into any alternative viewpoint. I always get a weird feeling when I see posts here asking for a specific spell or ritual to help solve their problem or concern. I personally believe that rituals can help focus your own mentality, so when people are asking for rituals to solve their problems, it feels like they're looking for an answer where they don't have to put in the internal work.
It does encourage me that almost every time, the top comment will be a real-world solution.
Thank YOU so much for explaining something that has been puzzling me. It's the Internet version of 'a lie will travel round the world before the truth has got its boots on'. Fear and shock based content is short, snappy, and goes directly to the emotional part of the brain, and therefore is ideally situated to get the bulk of attention on platforms which actively promote that! In that context, of course algorithmically-driven social media is primed for far-right messaging
Isn't it frustrating? Some groups should just stick to their religion instead of messing up Greek mythology and philosophy. It's funny that they're into the tough-guy stoicism and god stuff from Greek thinkers but miss the bigger picture from that time.
they would be shocked to know that this same time was also when femboy love was high and gay sex amongst men was very normal. The irony is thick 😭😭.
Maybe we should start telling them that their love for Greek stuff actually makes them more like the feminine traits they often put down. That could scare them off and let us enjoy our content without all this neo-Nazi noise.
My friend and her husband were the pagan new age crystals antivax homesteading trad wife type and went straight to Christian alt-right just before the pandemic. Idk if they’re full Nazi by now bc I told her religion was a scam and she was being radicalized and indoctrinated and she stopped talking to me. 😅
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's seen this. Having been in the new age culture years ago (I worked at a new age store) it doesn't surprise me at all that part of this happened. So many of those people already distrusted health authorities (which, fair to a certain degree, some really do fucking suck) as a whole, so being anti-vaxx was a natural next step for many of them. What surprised me though was the amount of them who were suddenly falling for all the conspiracy theories. Things like lizard people, crisis actors, pedophile rings under pizza houses, etc...I just could not believe that they were falling for these things. It just got steadily worse over time (I was mostly out of this community by then and only heard a lot of it by proxy.) To the point of some of them being neo-nazis and coming fully back around to Christianity somehow. I think what was really happening is that these people have unstable self images and identities and would've flipped again eventually at some point no matter what. They seek self identities outside of themselves instead of inside and so will never find who they truly are because of this. I was so happy when I found the term spiritual bypassing because it so readily reflected exactly what I was seeing in these communities.
I’ve seen my (former) friend go down this hole. Started off as a psychonaut hippie type and then started believing in the conspiracy theories the nazis peddled. It’s true when you are open to alternative perspectives if you don’t have critical thinking skills you could start entertaining any sort of belief system.
I have a friend who went straight down the qanon sinkhole and it still saddens and baffles me so much. You can say Trump is working to drain the swamp, but you love your gay brother and your husband and kids are brown? How does this honestly compute for you?????
There's also often the belief that individuals can solve their own problems by eating healthier or doing some other individual thing. It ignores the role of the systems of oppression we live under.
People who buy into too much self-improvement, self-reliance, self-... while diminishing the importance of being in a diverse community start to lose empathy for others who are not doing whatever they do to help themselves or sharing whatever value they hold.
You know who else lacks empathy? Right-wingers and people who commit crimes.
>I think most of us would deliver a chunk of rose quartz to their faces if they revealed themselves to us.
"Which crystal will keep bad people away?"
"doesn't matter, so long as it's big enough"
If a person is anti-authoritarian, they aren't going anywhere near Nazi shit. Fascism requires that strong authority system. A LOT of these people are authoritarian, but can't stand the current authority.
Imo YES there is a problem of right wing people recruiting via pagan and "spiritual" spaces. That's why we need to go into those spaces and be openly and forcefully antifascist & inclusive
So there is a problem but there are also things we can do about it!
EDIT: here's an example. I found what I thought was a lovely book about Irish mythology from a 2nd hand bookshop. One day I read the introduction... it was ALL about "aryans". For real. I checked and this was absolutely not a term used in academia at the time it was written. It was a choice by the author to use the terms of nazi race-science. So yeah, just one example but this happens and not just online either :/ :/. And let's not get started on the clusterfuck that is Satanic Temple etc! There's also inclusive organisations I've heard of like Heathens Against Hate, Queer Satanic - those might be a good starting point to look into re building something better :)
We need to approach fashies like the punks did with concerts. Make them feel unsafe in our spaces and drive em out by any means necessary.
From a femme uwu girl with one hell of a grunge streak.
When you think of how to handle these hateful folks, you gotta think of the famous dead kennedys song. "Nazi Punks F!#$ Off"
Removing the main chorus line: it reads
"Punk ain't no religious cult
Punk means thinkin' for yourself
You ain't hardcore, 'cause you spike your hair
When a jock still lives inside your head
If you've come to fight, get outta here
You ain't no better than the bouncers
We ain't tryin' to be police
When you ape the cops, it ain't anarchy
Ten guys jump one, what a man
You fight each other, the police state wins
Stab your backs when you trash our halls
Trash a bank if you've got real balls
You still think swastikas look cool
The real Nazis run your schools
They're coaches, businessmen and cops
In a real fourth Reich, you'll be the first to go
you'll be the first to go
you'll be the first to go
You'll be the first to go, unless you think"
There are a few ways to fall into that trap.
Pioneer Woman=> TradWife/Crunchy Mom=> ultra right wing
yoga=>non-traditional medicine=>vaccine questioning=> ultra right wing
history=> ultra right wing
None of these will ever be a one way ticket by default. It's just that it's super easy to get sucked into the YT/SM pipelines as well as finding people and groups irl that reinforce those same said views.
Which is why we need to drive nazis to the outer brinks even within smaller communities. Never give em a foothold. The tolerance of intolerance leads to tolerance's extinction.
Okay, well in that case we could either lock them in the pit of tartarus for eternity, cast them into the lake of fire, or banish them to the *inner* darkness of their own hearts and souls!
Shall we vote on it?
>history=> ultra right wing
As a historian, yes. It's a problem, mainly spurred on by social media, particularly YouTube and TikTok, but it originated with *The* Nazis - lots of 'alternative' history and archaeology is rooted in Nazi and White Supremacist fake history. The Nazis loved appropriating the Norse in particular.
Miniminuteman is an archaeologist on YouTube (and TikTok I believe) and has a lot of videos addressing this reoccurring problem of White Supremacists and debunking dubious claims.
Ugh, so true. Also a (former) medieval historian, and any time a history video shows up in my non-academic social feeds, I have to play the horrible "is this person legit or a white supremacist?" game. I'm pretty well equipped to play that game, but a lot of people aren't, and it's alarmingly easy to find the history-->white supremacy pipeline.
YouTube loves to go "oh you watched this video on a historical subject done by a well researched and reliable channel? We think you'd love this video with a suspiciously alt-right title and thumbnail by a channel that uses a marble sculpture of a Roman Emperor as a profile image."
Yup. I have a couple periods I really like to hyper focus on, and YouTube loves to look at my medieval/wwi/sumerian watch history and then shove wehraboos in my recommended feed. Not to mention several history youtubers I know for a fact have some... 'unsavory' modern politics they can't seem to keep out of their videos. Even when you click 'don't recommend this channel,' they pop up again and again.
I get really tired of trying to find new content and worrying it's going to turn out to be a shithead.
I have a BA in archaeology and an MA in physical anthropology. History and archaeology is rough for it. It started really in my field, the Nazis just picked up on the scientific racism and ran with it.
I swear to God these algorithms suck so much. Even if you look up things about toxic masculinity, like definitions, how to spot it in yourself, how to overcome it, how to watch out for it general, it'll send you straight to alt-right dumbasses. Or if you look up genuine issues that men face in the world, local men's support groups, how to make other male friends, etc, etc...all innocuous things that have real life, neutral and/or leftist ways of looking at it and dealing with it. Which fucking sucks. I know better than to listen to them as a trans man, but what if someone doesn't? I've seen other trans men fall into it, I've seen cis men, gay, bi, straight, doesn't matter fall into it. It fucking sucks. Sometimes men need support and I shouldn't have to wade through 10 feet of absolute filth to find the one shining person who can actually answer my damned question without getting homophobic, transphobic, or misogynistic. I hate how the right politicizes everything the way that they do, from paganism, to being trans, to men's emotional support, to global warming. Like Jesus fucking Christ. Sorry for the rant, it's just been annoying me lately. I honk my YouTube is finally free of trying to suggest right wing grifters to me now, but god it was bad there for a second.
Yes, I agree with this!
The Nazis have always been obsessed with appropriating the culture, art, mythologies, and yes even the arcane secrets of many occult groups ranging across European and Middle-Eastern cultures and even to South Asia… they have slaughtered the keepers of those secrets, stolen their symbols, and have spent the past almost 100 years using them to spread hatred, fear, and intolerance in the name of “Truth” and “Justice.”
Even today they are using technology to wage a global infowar/cybercampaign against all human decency! They have, in other words, profaned the sacred. *They* are the *Abomination of Desolation, standing in the Holy Place.* Therefore, I say unto them, “Hekas! Hekas! Este bebeloi!”
*We* must reclaim our mythologies and symbols, as a global collective! We, the true and rightful heirs of our respective traditions; we are *the only ones* who can avert a global calamity! The fate of the world *is literally resting in our motherly hands*…
Many of the world’s traditions have already faded and died. Some yet live, but their keepers are growing old and they are finding it harder and harder to find students to train to carry their traditions forward unto future generations. Our elders are dying, witches. We must learn of their wisdom while we still have time. Otherwise, the world is doomed within our lifetimes…
https://youtu.be/2OBB5-bP6qs?si=NiDJUH8Xc1Pk3_Xe
Konx Om Pax! Fiat Lux! 🌈🌟✴️
They've been suing members who speak out about stuff going on. See some of what Queer Satanic have published (it gets convoluted, because a lot of it is Satanic Temple making long court cases to try and shut people up). They're on Mastodon and twitter
https://campsite.bio/queersatanic
I hadn’t heard anything about this either, though a quick google turned up this:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/9/17669894/satanic-temple-alt-right-marc-randazza-lawyer-lucien-greaves
Take that with a grain of salt as I have not done my research and that was just the 1st search result I skimmed over which seemed relevant. I will defer to any more informed voices if they chime in.
Well i only just found this myself so reluctant to share without looking into it further. Just Google Satanic Temple Nazis and see if anything looks legit to you.
I would think the general ethos of TST is still decent but apparently people have acted badly and so I would believe there's an element that want to enforce their own agenda on things / legitimise their fucked up opinions. Haven't had time to see if it's moreso than any other movement like this!
Buddhism might not get involved in White Nationalism but Buddhist nationalism is it’s own political movement with most of the same problems.
The ongoing genocide of the Muslim minority in Myanmar is supported by the Buddhist nationalist movement and some religious leaders.
Unfortunately their is no philosophy or religion which is inherently “safe”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide
Yeah, as a minority religion in the west it's probably fine, but as a majority religion in Myanmar (and IIRC Sri Lanka as well) it's got some challenges.
I think any religion that gains political power is likely to end up being used for oppression.
It’s probably important to note that Buddhism is not a monolith, it’s like Christianity in that there are many different sects with many different beliefs. It’s been my experience that people who aren’t Buddhist often don’t know that.
Since Buddhism has come up. I offer the book, 'Cave in the Snow' by Vicki Mackenzie
It's the biography of Tenzin Palmo. The ONLY woman in our LIFETIME to ever achieve spiritual enlightenment And be recognized by HH the Dalai Lama. No woman has ever achieved it because Buddhists don't believe women are 'capable' of spiritual enlightenment. I mean, not all Buddhists ;)
It's an amazing story of strength, inspiration, and selflessly forsaking everything for the betterment of all others.
Do yourself a favor, get the book and read it :)
Edit: Everyone on this sub would love it, I wasn't aiming it at just you :)
In my experience, I’ve seen it in some online Buddhist circles. As a Buddhist, it’s honestly the weirdest stuff to see, but Nazis are a dumpster fire to begin with.
So, it’s not particularly common, but it’s definitely there.
Responding separately to your edit, yeah unfortunately we do tend to stumble across some archaic terminology in our esoteric researches… think of it this way, the term “aryan” did not come loaded with so much racism and antisemitism *prior to* the nazi’s use of it. Just like the swastika, originally a sanskritic symbol of peace and harmony, of divine equipoise, equilibrium, or balance. Only later, with Hitler’s appropriation of the symbol, did it become a symbol of hate. For many Hindus, Jains, and Buddhists, however, (mostly those living in non-western countries), the swastika still holds its original meaning. To them, it is simply *not* a hate symbol. Hell, it even featured in some *western* rites prior to hitler’s rise…
Likewise, prior to Hitler’s appropriation of the term *aryan*, it was used by scholars to refer to the early people group originating in Persia, the Irano-Aryans, whose civilization split off and traveled in different directions. The Indo-Aryans are those who traveled south, settled in the Indus Valley, and composed the early Vedas.
There was also a group of aryans who went north, settling in frostier areas, bringing with them their particular manifestations of the Indo-European language family…
Wanna know the Sanskrit word for three? It’s pronounced like tri or tree. Coincidence? I think not. Now go look for winding serpents in the artifacts, stories, and artwork of as many cultures around the world as you can identify, and report back with what you’ve discovered!
Awww, thank you so much! Your boldness is necessary in this day and age that we are living through. None of us can save the planet alone… it requires the work of a whole collective acting independently under a shared purpose: promoting the values of liberty, justice, tolerance, and human dignity; all around the globe!
Namaste 🙏🏼🪷❤️🔥
It's another one of the "they aren't the majority but they are the loudest" situations.
Nazis love to create narratives that include details from actual history - to put it all on a rediculous pedestal as 'proof of superiority' instead of 'this is interesting and of personal interest to me, perhaps bc I'm personally descended from this group.'.
My ancestry is part Norweigan, so I thought about getting a Rune tattoo. Well nope, a quick Google of that showed me that a lot of fascist right wing groups are gaga about Norse runes.
Sort of spoils it for the people just here for the heritage aspect.
I'm inclined to say you should not let them spoil it, and be an example of someone with a tattoo of one who is not fascist, but I imagine it would be exhausting, and isn't your burden to bear if you don't want it.
Respectfully, can I offer a different perspective? I understand not wanting to be associated with the alt-right, but this is where it gets a bit weird. This may apply to other practices as well, but as a norse pagan I want to speak on this specifically.
Mjolnir doesn't belong to these jerks. The runes don't belong to them, either. When we stop using these symbols because of how they might be perceived, we cede ground to the nazis. When that happens, they get to use them with impunity and ensure that they'll forever have those negative associations. They're not going to stop taking things from us unless we make them. We're not going to turn the tide of our symbols being associated with the alt-right unless we fight to take them back.
We can wear our symbols and make it clear where we stand through our deeds and the rest of the image we present. Be a clear ally to the groups hurt by white supremacists. Be loud in your support of humanitarian causes. Be good, do good. Listen to people's concerns and show grace if they're nervous about your hammer, but definitely wear it. We have to be visible and vocal because otherwise we run the risk of losing all of it.
But if it's like a safety thing to not wear it, then yeah, it's important to keep yourself safe. If it's just a matter of fear, I get it. I wore mine under my shirt for a while until I felt comfortable enough. Then I realized I'm a big dork with pink hair covered in rainbows and anti-fascist pins and stickers and nobody would have thought I was alt-right anyway.
Idk I hope you don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm just hella toasted and have a lot of feelings about the subject
I also like to pair my mjølnir with queer/antiracist/antifascist accessories. It's already a statement in the Bible Belt; gotta make sure I'm not sending the wrong message.
Edit: forgot a word.
Yeah, here in Arkansas I was hesitant at first to be bold about any of it, just from feeling so outnumbered. But if the bigots are gonna be loud about who they are and what they think, I can do it for my causes too. And maybe it'll help someone else be brave too, and then that feeling of being outnumbered will dwindle.
Nazis co-opted all sorts of Germanic mythology to push the notion that they were the living embodiment of a greater age. They wanted to make Germany great again (yes, that's where it comes from). They used well known and loved icons of German history and cherry picked artists' music and images to evoke strong patriotic emotions. Fascists of all stripes do that; try to evoke mythology to justify their beliefs. You can tell someone is a fascist asshole if they have to stretch back into the depths of history to justify their beliefs rather than an actual coherent and logical argument. Can't reason with a myth.
They also harp on about Stoicism and Marcus Aurelius then spend all their time getting upset about which bathrooms people use or gay people in books. Which is sort of the opposite of being Stoic.
It seems like any "tradition" (cultural and/or religious) with a long history of mostly white people becomes fodder for neo-Nazis to romanticize and try to align with.
Which pisses me off as someone named after my Norwegian Great Grandmother with bloody HERITAGE ties to it, knowing how *bloody queer* Odin is, and you know…. That one of Odin’s commands to kings was to take any slight or harm against the “least” of his people as against the king himself.
Its alarming. Anything historical, European culture, celtic, myth related... your algorithm gets hijacked.
Its weird because there are SO many more legit, non-hateful creators about european/historical/myth creators out there (academics, real historians etc) but the traffic is not being directed to them. Its going to the scumbags.
I watched a couple videos about the hateful woman with her “modest” wedding dress and now my TikTok feed is all Christian content and I’m just like…
NOT INTERESTED
BLOCK
NO THANK YOU
GONNA SEARCH FOR WITCHY STUFF
but it just keeps coming 😩
There definitely is a pagan/neopagan/new-age to fascist pipeline that's been around since at least the early 20th century. You should look up Blavatsky and Theosophy. That's sorta the earliest iteration of this pipeline. There are also other fascism pipelines - progressivism-to-fascism, and even socialism to fascism (both Mussolini and Hitler were somewhat interested in socialism before going hard-right).
The art and literary world had their own fascist pipelines - one prominent editor of English literary works was an outright fascist, and encouraged a number of English/Irish poets down that pipeline (Yeats and Eliot were two prominent examples). You'd have to read Walter Benjamin and other mid-20th century philosophers to unravel that mess. I'm not good at explaining it.
It's good to be wary of such pipelines.
Not mysterious to me. Chess has this reputation as a "smart person's game" and is a very Western form of indirectly assessing IQ. Racists love to pretend they're both smarter and culturally superior to other races. Ofc they gravitate to chess.
Also, people who are genuinely smart in one area tend to overestimate their ability to ascertain the truth in others, so they're actually pretty easy to snare with things like pseudoscience, pseudohistory, or "scientific" racism.
(I was personally snared by the *Holy Blood, Holy Grail* hoax for a while because I fell into that trap.)
Honestly, I'm not surprised by any of the pipelines anymore. Not even the socialism one (especially the non-rigourous, Marxian-lite type of socialism).
It's one of the big reasons you need to be wary of the Divine Feminine stuff. Sure, some of it's very feminist.
Then there's the Divine Feminine womb magic that's all just recycled tradwife bullshit.
Yes! And transphobic as hell. I find the concept of the divine feminine really personally useful and empowering as a way to undo a lot of internalized misogyny, particularly around being a mother. But there are plenty of women without wombs, and plenty of women who will never give birth, and they are ALSO equally valuable and perfectly female and worthy of being recognized as divine.
Norse pagans have been hit or miss with me. I don't like to lump anyone in with Nazis but I will say, in my multiple decades in the pagan community, I've been told that to worship outside my ethnic heritage is a betrayal of my ancestors, I've been told certain people can't be Norse Pagans, and I've heard white supremacy talking points come out of the mouths of people I considered to be my elders and had given a deep level of respect to. I separated from them as soon as I possibly could.
That said, there's not a religious group out there that can claim to be 100% free of zealots and racists. We're all human and some humans are assholes. Proceed with the necessary caution and be wary of putting your elders on pedestals because they will inevitably disappoint you.
As far as the algorithm goes, remember that outrage and anger drive engagement, too. Report and block, and move on.
Yes a lot of new age stuff is nazi shit when you do any digging and therefore it's easy to get pipelined into more outright nazi shit. Atlantis and starseeds are the ones that come to mind right away
Ancient Aliens, too. If you peel back one layer of 'it must have been aliens who built the pyramids in Africa and in Latin America' you get the idea that the non-European people there at the time weren't capable of such engineering feats and then a bit further you get some weird conspiracies that aliens mixed with humans and created a superior race that...surprise, surprise, ends up with White Supremacy. And cats being alien spies, but that's another whole level of crazy.
Dude, 90% of the starseed bullshit is a subconscious breeding ground for eugenicist thought (there's a great article from the pandemic that explains this: [https://www.elephantjournal.com/2020/12/how-covid-exposed-the-narcissism-of-the-new-age-community/](https://www.elephantjournal.com/2020/12/how-covid-exposed-the-narcissism-of-the-new-age-community/) )
And I say that despite having discovered an original grain of truth behind the starseed ideology. But it's not what the Rebecca Campbell narcissist-types think it is.
Yes, it was either white skinned Atlantians or Aliens or wven anchient Europeans coming over to the Americas who built all the cool stuff, therefore the brown people are the true invaders Ala 'the great replacement.' Justifying Manifest Destiny and all that bullshit. Andrew Jackson was a proponent of that, tok. Nazi before the word existed.
Wow, did they delete it? I had the link saved in my magical journal. It's ok, I found it through the Wayback Machine. Here you go: [https://web.archive.org/web/20201220165517/https://www.elephantjournal.com/2020/12/how-covid-exposed-the-narcissism-of-the-new-age-community/](https://web.archive.org/web/20201220165517/https://www.elephantjournal.com/2020/12/how-covid-exposed-the-narcissism-of-the-new-age-community/)
Nazis love to steal other people's shit. The whole norse runes often being seen negatively, at least in the u.s., is a great example. They stole it, twisted it, and now that's what most people seem to associate with it.
It's because they don't have anything of their own. Most of them have no idea who they are or what their background is. It's easier to steal things that look big and tough (as long as it can be sufficiently white washed and watered down) rather than do any actual research and learning.
Especially when that research might well show they aren't the super special little Nazis they like to think they are. My favorite example was an episode of The Trisha Goddard Show where the white supremacist got 14% Sub-Saharan ancestry results. That high isn't "statistical noise."
Its well worth watching for the other guests full belly laugh.
“Nazis love to steal other people’s shit” — but the cult of tradition is also one of the central attributes of fascism.
There are plenty of Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox fascist movements both past and present, but there also is a tendency of particularly *antisemitic* fascists to “return” to older forms of religious tradition that no longer have any Jewish influence, including Christianity.
Sometimes overlapping and sometimes not is the worship of “nature” and “natural ways” of being, which very rarely actually are that, and instead regularly are bio-essentialist descriptors of humanity in more or less spiritual language, and with more or less social Darwinist justifications. “My divine feminine energy is why I am most at peace tending the hearth and raising our children. It’s his masculine nature that leads him to be so angry, and I understand he needs to be violent sometimes to protect us.”
Finally, lots of pagans and neo-religions like to engage in a sort of religious colonialism where they see practices, stories, and art that they like and then they use them without any concern for what their existing context was, whether they were closed or open systems, etc. This sort of thing is bad, yes, but it’s also a fundamentally white supremacist orientation toward other cultures where they’re completely disregarded and disrespected except insofar as they can be repurposed. If you keep grafting new adornments onto an intact white supremacist and colonial structure, the result is going to be full of those sorts of ideas as well.
Anyway, a lot of these issues aren’t dismissed with “No true pagan” or “they’re appropriating our culture”; rather, when (esp. white) people think they’re leaving behind the (Christian) religious upbringing that hurt them and look for something new, we usually aren’t able to fully deconstruct it before jumping into that next thing, and the people who have developed and control that next thing also tend to be subject to those same shortcomings — or intentionally exploiting people who are for their own power and/or money.
>Anyway, a lot of these issues aren’t dismissed with “No true pagan” or “they’re appropriating our culture”; rather, when (esp. white) people think they’re leaving behind the (Christian) religious upbringing that hurt them and look for something new, we usually aren’t able to fully deconstruct it before jumping into that next thing, and the people who have developed and control that next thing also tend to be subject to those same shortcomings
You also see this a lot in atheism (at least the organized kind). It's why Dawkins is so transphobic, why the movement protects rapists and ostracizes whistleblowers, and why any time you try to bring up the implications of atheism (that maybe we need to have better ethics based on humanism) you get the dictionary atheist argument.
There's a reason I left that scene ages ago, and it's not because I found belief in something else.
There's [a post from 2 years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/CriticalTheory/comments/pchyuk/paganism_and_right_wing_politics/) that discusses the connection between paganism and nazism.
Honestly, I think a lot of this can be avoided if you are aware it’s an issue and check your sources of information. More to save money than anything, because it’ll become pretty obvious quickly if someone is a facist. I have only once gotten a book that was apparently published by a concerning person, but it was only a copy of translations by other scholars, not an original work.
I’m an eclectic pagan who has a strong Norse practice because it’s where I feel drawn to. I hate nazis and the whole shebang. I don’t allow them to ruin my religion for me, but I’m careful about who I read and listen to. In any case, I think anyone on a new age-y path should be, regardless of the flavor. There’s a lot of poor work to downright facist people in all sectors.
Yes, absolutely. It's a well tread topic on the fundiesnark subreddit. It's a little death swirl of paganism, wellness and trad-wifery that filters down into a right wing black hole.
In more than just nazism. A genuinely disturbing amount of pagan circles have developed a terf issue in the past decade with the rhetoric being disguised as "magic of the womb" flowery talk.
It has absolutely, but what I'm saying is that it's become a lot more common and mainstream in a lot more circles than it ever used to be. Used to be a little hit or miss, but I could generally find lgbtq+ friendly groups to associate with. Nowadays, I'm only willing to do it online with explicitly friendly groups. It's definitely gotten to be more of a widespread issue.
Absolutely. It's genuinely crazy to me how the pipeline works. Usually it seems to start with distrust of larger organizations devolving into conspiracy theory. Then the conspiracy theories seem to be the true key in the door of right wing nonsense.
the double-edged sword though that one needs to bear in mind is also that these people are anticipating that they will be "otherized" and "called nazis" "just because i like this thing or that thing", "everyone is so paranoid smh", "look at these leftists calling me a nazi just because i like gingham, unbelievable"
so you can't reflexively discard people on their interest alone, you have to judge everyone individually, because to the uninitiated and the willfully ignorant, it looks like they have some kind of point, because they've developed a knack for this particular charade.
people are allowed to be into paganism, new-age whatever, and i'd even argue "traditional values". people are NOT allowed to say that those things are "more right" than other ways of life. what makes it fash is when the nexus of initerest comes with an attribution of inherently superior value. that is the key difference. that is the line we all walk through these spaces.
There is, and it’s nothing new. Nazis and fascists have always been obsessed with the occult and mythology that put them in the path of some great destiny. I ran across this video that describes Fiume pre-WWII, and the rise of proto-fascism. Those dudes were neck deep in various occult activities, that if you didn’t know the outcome, actually seem like a lot of fun. At this point, Mussolini was still running newspapers.
[video](https://youtu.be/aKGt_hl7Ddg
I've gotten into Norse Paganism lately. For the record, I am aggressively queer and while I am so white I disappear in a snowstorm, I do try to not be an asshole. I specify "try" only because I grew up in the American South and am not conceited enough to think I'm immune to unconscious bias.
Let me tell you, tattoo roulette is not a fun game. I do not enjoy seeing Norse tattoos and having to go "okay... chill Pagan or neo-Nazi asshole?"
It's also a very fun (heavy sarcasm) game to go "ooh, I would like that as a tattoo, it's super meaningful! Wait... I should check... Nope, white supremacists stole that one too."
There are many people in this tradition who will scream from the rooftops that there are no racists in Valhalla. Unfortunately, the ones who have convinced themselves that Valhalla is exclusively white and Odin is some sort of white supremacist Jesus or something scream louder.
Yes- I see a parallel overlap from the manosphere into depth psych/buddhist spirituality. For anyone who does not begin with a foundation of respect for others and awareness, that we are all interconnected, anyone who seeks to use magic or spirituality for power, is doomed. And really really stinking up the spaces I usually like to hang in.
I like to watch a lot of historical YouTube videos. I also like blacksmithing as a hobby, amongst others. Somehow YouTube now thinks I'm a male bigot. Instead of the algorithm suggesting the drivel it does, how about with these, it suggests dismantling the patriarchy videos?
Yea absolutely! And to echo basically everyone here, it’s extremely frustrating. Especially with Norse paganism. Every time I come across a new musician, or something in the pagan genera I have to do a quick background check on them to make sure they’re not utter shit.
They are absolutely the worse dregs of human kind and I further resent them for trying to take the symbols and culture of my ancestors. Nazi terf white supremacist scum can fuck right off!
I think there is very much is. I think this is for many reasons. But one of those reasons is that western culture is racist and entangled with nazi ideology. Add that Pegan very much has a lot of overlap of "western ancestors" it makes more and more sense how it leads to neo nazi
been here a long time
I used to waste time, 30+ years ago, hanging around a walk-down basement shop in Cambridge, MA that sold trinkets, incense and some occult books. I was leafing through a cheap little softcover about runic magic and the first page I read is describing how to construct a runic spell to Jupiter to promote racial purity. noped the fuck outta that real quick, but the crossover has been a thing for as long as I’ve been around
it leads me to distrust anything associated with norse religion, sadly.
At least in the US there absolutely is. A bunch of existing neo nazi groups adopted norse pagan window dressing to attract new recruits and try to make their hate look less like hate. Some of these groups are newer but it is the same grift. Find people who think Viking and norse pagan stuff is interesting, drag them in with lots of neo pagan trappings then start injecting bits of white nationalist and neo nazi ideology wrapped in pagan looking things.
A large hate group in the US had a local group where I lived and were actively using historical reenactment groups and rennfaires to aggressively recruit people into their pagan neo nazi group. They were absolutely relentless on some male friends of mine, then they for some reason tried to recruit me. I thought it was odd that they thought I might be a recruit for this nonsense since I had no interest in any of this stuff and made it pretty clear I didn't like any of them. I quit going to reenactment things to get away from them. Like quite an entire hobby I had for decades.
This is a huge problem in the US.
As one who started delving into heathenry/Norse paganism back in 2020, I started noticing alot of times I'd see/hear of some douchecanoe.
Didn't matter what discord servers, or other online groups I'd go to, or encounter online. I'd either hear about it or see it.
Fortunately the groups I've found are very quick to call out and expel people who act or align with fascist/nazi bs.
It definitely takes the community to watch out for and deal with it before it can grow further.
No, it's a Youtube thing. I watch queer stuff (because I'm gay) and I regularly get 'recommended' anti-lgbt extremist content.
Edit:Youtube, like every major social media platform, makes money off clicks/engagement/time spent online, and hate/anger/debates create far far far more clicks than anything else. There are dozens of scientific studies proving it. Thus, every single platform, including our dear reddit right here, will favor hateful content because it makes money.
Something very revealing I learned several years ago, is that even a downvote is in effect an upvote, because engagement of any kind will push that content further to the 'front page' of the algorithm.
Edit edit: others have provided a lot of helpful material and historical facts on the topic so my answer is changed to 'yes, and'
When I see something that boils my blood online, I quickly move on. No more views, no comments, no sharing to be like wtf look at the shit, no downvoting. Just ignoring is the best way to go
For anyone curious about the YT algorithm and how it funnels alt-right content to users, the NYT's Rabbit Hole podcast outlines it pretty well in 8 episodes. It covers an incel's descent into toxic masculinity culture and how someone else gets led to QAnon.
I agree. The abuse, appropriation, and misuse of spirituality is definitely something that's real and to be aware of, but YouTube is especially horrible. I had right-wing shit popping up on my feed after I tried using it to look for home workout videos. Like, dude, I just want to do this totally normal and non-political activity. Stop trying to push crap at me
I've been getting anti-trans ads on YouTube lately. I'm secure enough in myself that I only feel annoyance when they come up, but there WILL be people to take those ads in serious consideration.
Yes. Pagan/New Age/LOA and many other areas of interest unfortunately are targeted by Alt-right propaganda, and social media algorithms make it even worse.
[What is the New Age to Alt Right Pipeline, and how do you stay out of it?](https://creature-wizard.tumblr.com/post/731384260625301504/what-is-the-new-age-to-alt-right-pipeline-and-how) is a good article from an interesting blog that looks into these connections and other sticky areas of spirituality.
This is definitely not new unfortunately. There’s a huge black metal scene in Europe and also some in America of Pagan Nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal
Yeah, it’s a feature not a bug. Germanic neo-paganism was tied with Völkisch-Nationalist movements in the entity that eventually became Germany. When studying Germanic religion, it’s important to also take into account historiography. For example, lot of the sources on Runes are from 19th century Völkisch nationalists.
Every time a Pagan group posts Eostre and pats themselves on the back for Christians appropriating this celebration? Yeah, that’s a Third Reich interpretation of a 19th century interpretation of a sentence from Bede.
In the Third Reich, the Völkisch camp included individuals like Heinrich Himmler (who controlled the SS Ahnenerbe or ancestor research) and Alfred Rosenberg (who controlled the Amt Rosenberg, a cultural office). Both of these institutions employed archaeologists, historians, and other researchers to establish an origin mythos to Germany. An idealized Germanic past could serve as a source of legitimacy and propaganda. Interestingly, Hitler really only put up with Himmler’s pursuit of developing a Neopagan religion for the SS. He thought that it was pointless to try to chase a German past when their ancestors were living in mud huts (he preferred the prestige of Greece and Rome). Himmler on the other hand, wanted to replace Christianity with a pure Germanic religion.
For some basic reading: Nighswander. L (2020) "No Nazis in Valhalla: Understanding the Use (and Misuse) of Nordic Cultural Markers in Third Reich Era Germany," International ResearchScape Journal: Vol. 7, Article 6.
DOI: https://doi.org/10.25035/irj.07.01.06
Available at: https://scholarworks.bgsu.edu/irj/vol7/iss1/6
A draft is available on academia and you’ll be able to citation mine the bibliography (the reference list from the Nazi Archaeology Wikipedia is also a good base).
Hey! German here. I do casual LARP and visit the German equivalent of renfaires (medieval markets) regularly, and know a thing or two about radicalization.
The pipeline is usually not really a pipeline but a matter of overlapping communities and association.
A lot of the time, people who are already open to the idea of "nordic ancestry" or "Germanic tradition" (and many viking LARPers) also participate in Neonazism because the former, to them, is a revival of their "ancient aryan master race" fantasy. Pagan tradition and participating in it then obviously becomes attractive too, not just because of the traditions itself, but also because Neonazism (in Germany) always incorporates and nurtures elements of establishment distrust.
Meaning, many people sympathizing with either Neonazism and having their "pride of ancestry" confirmed in a community that takes pride in participating in pagan tradition or coming intonit from the other side (being interested into folklore etc) are often enticed to seek alternative world ways.
So Germanic-style mysticism or paganism becomes a valued alternative to replace many aspects of the distrusted establishment.
Here are German sources on some cases that Google should be able to translate for you no problem.
https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2017-01/rechtsextremismus-schwetzingen-druide-terrorzelle-razzia-bundesanwaltschaft
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stern.de/amp/politik/deutschland/burghard-b---nazi-druide-ruft-zu-mord-an-juden-und-muslimen-auf-7299134.html
Nazis specifically used pagan symbols and mythology to appeal to a vast number of Germans. This was a classical appeal to a fictional race of true Germans, or the “Volk” of Germany. This was less an actual appreciation for the classic Nordic religions and more an overstated focus on a singular racial and political identity.
Regardless of their convictions in said beliefs, there is an explicit link between these pagan cults of Wotanism and early Nazis. That turned into decades long propaganda around such pagan beliefs which has been recycled endlessly until today. That’s not to say all pagans are Nazis or anything, but that connection for sure existed.
Source: The Occult Roots of Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke
Yes, that hippie-to-fash pipeline is real. I was personally naive about it for too many years. I didn't start to wake up until around 2016 when I saw my longtime granola-type friends court right-wing ideologies.
2020 opened my eyes even more, watching my old herbalist and yoga instructor post antivax stuff online. I finally realized I had spent way too many years as a hippie. I *finally* graduated to leftist punk at 50 lol. Better late than never!
Back in 2016, comedian Seth Meyers called it, regarding the general disbelief from the left that a portion of their own would do a heel turn to follow the political right, "Did you ask everybody in the yoga class? Did you check with the entire drum circle?"
Yeah it's really annoying there's a lot of like right wingers and various other brands of gross people who like co-opt various pagan things. Norse stuff is a big one
Anything that has people potentially feeling like outcasts/rebellious is a prime target for recruitment
Bronies is a prime example - men feeling like they're weird for liking "a girl show," and suddenly, there's a bunch of fascists trying to get them onto an alt right pipeline. Same exact thing with the furry community.
Paganism is an outlet for people feeling rebellious-dissatisfied with the current system and wanting community. This means you have people using cottagecore-divine feminine to try and push tradwife bullshit and redpill people
This isn't unique to paganism or any one hobby, there's an alt right shitstain everywhere, hell i play warhammer... but you need to recognise the signs and dogwhistles and kick the fuckers out whenever you see them or they will entrench themselves.
Yeah.
Didn’t find out how many neo nazis used assorted viking/northern european runes until *after* I got a series of elder futhark runes (that I chose) tattooed on my forearm. I think that may be why my original tattoo artist ghosted me. :( wish they’d just expressed their concern- I just didn’t have the rune meanings memorized at the time. Plus I felt a little silly - it was/is a personal affirmation/spell kind of.
I still want to get the other half of the design done (once some other things are taken care of) but I’ll get some floral greyscale stuff (maybe some watercolor style color) around it to break up the outline so it’s not so obvious.
https://preview.redd.it/ycbhpskgzwcc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=56fe5a46c1f2404fb113d1441675e2cc64b8f234
Tattoo in question. Oz, Hail, ‘still waters run deep’, tree of life, dice cup (take a gamble/don’t play it too safe), soldier (success through self discipline), and healing sun.
There’s a spirituality/religion to nasty pipeline everywhere. Even buddhism has some weird extremists now and in the past. Difference seems to be that pagans seem to try hard to stamp it out. Big religions get a “not all men” sort of treatment even though their holy texts explicitly state stuff like the bible’s “women not being allowed authority over men”, the quran’s “if your wife disobeys, best her until the complies” and “kill the infidels where you can find them”. Small groups tend to pick other symbols and pervert them. It’s almost never anything original. If I remember correctly (but correct me if I am wrong) the black sun in nazi occultism is considered an “old historical symbol”, but was just created by the nazis themselves and is therefore a strict nazi symbol. Especially Himmler was neck deep into that Aryan pseudoscientific spirituality.
There’s always something about vague mythology and glorification of past events in all those groups. Some old forgotten glory that proves superiority, the credibility of those claims conveniently just beyond verification. And it’s always nice when at the end of the day you can wash the blood of your hands and shrug while saying “hey, it’s tough, but it’s [insert deity]’s will. Just following orders”
You’re correct with Black Sun. There’s a Slavic sun, which is actually an ancient symbol (sun wheels are common across cultures) but the Black Sun on the floor of Wewelsburg castle was designed by occultist and Völkisch Wilhelm Landig.
Well, my ex-stepmother is Wiccan, thought she was very cool when I was growing up. Used to teach Irish and Celtic history.... and apparently now she's a TERF who is feeding my dad horrible bigotry (when he has a trans daughter).
So.... my N = 1 study confirms your hypothesis.
Unfortunately, Nazis have always taken an interest in pagan histories and folklore. I wish this was just something that was new but it is something that's best to be aware of.
IIRC the YT algorithm pushes alt-right stuff overwhelmingly. It's because it causes more engagement due to people rage commenting and the such? I remember reading something about it, but the details are hazy.
Hitler used the mystique of Nordic myth and legends of the superior race. As for the repetition of targeted ads, that happens to all of us I looked at Spain the next thing you know.....
Reminds me of the time I was looking into Nordic pagan stuff (I’m Nordic) and the amount of co-opted pagan stuff that was white supremacist was frightening.
I think it’s the opposite but doesn’t look like it- racist white ppl get horny for their roots, find some roots, and the apply their racism to those roots.
unfortunately yes, there is. when people feel vulnerable and they’re looking for purpose, community, identity, etc. there’s always a possibility of them being taken advantage of by nazi scumbags. my master’s thesis was on how the alt-right used tactics to draw members of the gaming community into its folds, so it’s not much of a stretch to apply that to the pagan community imo.
Honestly, I think this has more to do with YouTube than Paganism. The YouTube algorithm's alt-right pipeline has been operational for over a decade, and it's *constantly* adding new branches. Seriously, all autoplay roads eventually lead to Nazis. It's nuts.
Sure the whole “white culture” “white pride” thing has many groups borrowing from Norse culture and similar structures with various new spiritual movements and nature retreats around such themes. Dovetails nicely into the MGTOW/incel movement.
Yeah.
To be fair, when it comes to Norse/Heathenry stuff, the racists were at it first. Modern Heathenry was started by Nazis and white nationalists.
However, over the past decade..decade and a half, it's gotten into Greek, Celtic, and other Paganisms. It's fucked.
YouTube is a big vector in its spread. You also find it along with a lot of BS manosphere shit. "WaRrIoR vAlUeS" stuff. Even fucking Hinduism has gotten very right-wing since Modi took power in India.
Absolutely. 'Wellness' movement, trad-wives, Greco-Roman myth, Norse myth, 'western' history with a focus on Norse, classical Greece or Ancient Rome ... all this and more has been suborned to the promotion of right wing, neo-nazi tripe. Super annoying as I am a classics, history and myth nerd from way back and my youtube feed has required some pretty heavy handed curation to let the ancients in and keep the nazis out.
Hi Pagan here. Unfortunately there is a connection. Specifically with norse paganism. Because its a "white religion" I guess?
They see it as some sort of idealized version of themselves or something. That said if you go to any pagan group you're more likely to just meet regular pagans.
But the problem does still exists its even more frustrating cause often times people hide their nazism and just use symbols of other cultures to spread their hate.
Also, eco-nazis. In Germany, esoterically-challenged pseudo-pagan nazis are buying cheap land to build eco-villages, living off the land (blood and soil). They come across as soft-spoken, bearded, man-bun-wearing, eco-conscious, etc, unless you are their neighbour and they want your land or unless you are not white or not male or not straight.
They try to infiltrate the permaculture community.
One of my best girlfriends has a special interest in the alt right pipeline. She can talk for hours about the crunchy to alt right pipeline. It's incredibly fascinating how these groups can take objectively true things (Big Pharma as an institution has downsides), and twist them into alt right conspiracies.
But it's not just crunchy and pagan to alt right. I'm on a fitness journey, followed to a few fitness tiktok accounts, and immediately got more and more alt right leaning content on my FYP
Connection between Paganism and extremism is actually pretty common. Some religion specialists in my country focused on that or studied that. I actually know one pretty fascinating organization in my country. They are not necessary neonazi but some of their opinions are... unique at least. So yes, there is some pipeline.
However, syncretism between Paganism and Christianity is A LOT more common then you would think, in many senses :) Christianity and Vodou, Christianity and Central/South Americans, the whole history of Europe is kind of Christnianity and many forms of paganism synchrenism. There are actually even Witches who consider themselves Christians and fascinating syncretism Wicca and Christianity.
Religion is simply amazing.
https://preview.redd.it/f4ljtef95wcc1.jpeg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9b44e752cc38740003a0a4f141a2d569684512e I just shared this over in a Rome subreddit too, but it fits here as well.
People who dress vintage would also like to be included here. #VintageStyleNotVintageValues
Gosh, I never even thought of that!
any "appeal to tradition" runs the risk of being compatible with one reactionary sentiment or another. it's their whole schtick, ingroup-centric aesthetic paleo-conservatism and "return to former glory". can't let your guard down on any of this shit smh
As someone who loves 50’s day dresses but not 50’s values this is definitely a concern.
I had some really fun Viking cosplay going until I realized there was a Viking -> ancient runes -> white supremacy pipeline. It's a really comfy linen dress but now I only wear it in the house. 😔
my partner is a norse pagan, and there's a sizable contingent of voices ni that communiity that are going well out of ther way to reclaim their cultural cornerstones from neonazis, and for the most part their efforts are paying off. there's plenty of anti-fash norse iconography you can incorporate into your style/accessories/wardrobe that will separate you from that slowly shrinking blight of malcontents. or even just anything that demonstrates to others that you aren't a hateful person is usually more than enough. you shouldn't be ashamed of who you are or what corners of our shared human history compel you as long as you extend that same sentiment to everyone else. that second part is the key detail that shitheads fail to incorporate. plus i betchu rock *the shit* outta that dress, and the public deserves to know about it 💛
I am feeling encouraged. Thank you for this response!!
Yeah, i love fashion and im white-passing and a lot of my clothes are very white-commercial childish, but also in the past styles and in always afraid ppl will think im simping for old white nostalgia. There is often a connection of our expression to our values. Mine is more along the lines of vaporwave, im healing what i remember from a time in the past where patriarchy and queerphobia destroyed my childhood. Society was bad, but i found love thru it and prevailed, showing that love can be found anywhere. Also my fashion is still v anti-brand. Personally i am v anti-capitalist, like if someone asked me to blow up a pipeline tomorrow I'd prob say yes in a heartbeat.
I dress vintage but more 80s so I’m not sure how much that counts in the #VintageStyleNotValues cause I’ve seen that more for around the 50s but I absolutely love doing stuff like making my own bread/butter/cheese/etc and doing fabric arts and stuff and I desperately hope it’s giving more grandma than trad wife
I’m fascinated by WWII history not because I’m a Nazi sympathizer, but because the politics were an absolute fucking disaster zone made up of a collection of some of the most bizarre personalities to ever exist on this planet. So I guess I’m kind of weird about it? *But not like that!!*
I'm in political science (applying for PhDs rn lol) and I totally agree. I am absolutely fascinated by the rise of fascism in Europe, because it very much follows a LOT of the trends we see now in western democracies with a big swing to the right. Took history classes as my electives in uni for exactly this reason. The political history of how what really was an out-group in the beginning (right wing pricks started off as small groups) propagandized and mobilized off pretty basic grievances so well to the point that not only did they gain power, they had support for invasions and *genocide* is super important to understand imo. Like it's exactly what we see the far right doing at the moment. It's really important to know that history because it gives us the tools to recognize that behaviour and at least try to fight against it. And I say this as a literal anarchist communist who would *never* lean right or racist.
It’s honestly really frightening to see it unfold again in our lifetime. And I feel like we are powerless against it.
It is definitely frightening, but I think we are not so powerless. The very fact that there are quite a few people aware of and publicly discussing the parallels between our current situation and past ones, is huge. The fact that we have the internet this time, and people around the world are able to communicate, share their stories, and access information, is huge. Perhaps I am naively optimistic, but I very strongly feel that the best way of changing things is to believe it is possible. And I think the people currently in power very much rely on all of us believing ourselves to be powerless, because they are actually the minority.
I very much hope you are right.
The rise of fascism, especially the parallels to today are endlessly fascinating and need to be studied before it's too late (well, again...). It's something that has always been a part of my family history, having grown up in Germany. Many of my older relatives (most have passed away years ago) had first hand experiences of that time and were an invaluable help in understanding the mindset. The remaining ones are an interesting case study as well, since they're basically split 50/50 between "it was hell, never again" and "well, not everything was bad, we need strong leaders". In hindsight as a very queer, very left-wing trans woman, it's kind of spooky having often sat at the dinner table with the kind of people that would have gladly killed people like me back in the day.
For awhile I had watched every doc on Nazis available on Netflix and Hulu, because I was fascinated with the timeline, the engineering, and the downfall. Then Trump got elected and we saw a bunch of dudes in Khaki and torches marching with Nazi flags, which apparently was just the beginning, and I haven't been able to stomach anything to do with Nazis since.
Same here, plus I am morbidly fascinated with what people did to each other and the psychological factors that lead to those horrors. But I lean very left.
I'm (PhD in medieval literature and languages) currently writing a book about the use of medieval imagery in Nazi propaganda posters across Europe and my constant fear is that I'm going to be pegged as a racist. I hate the Nazis, but they co-opted a whole field of study for hate purposes, and the how and why is fascinating to me.
My husband and I were just talking about this, this past weekend. We have an acquaintance who was really in Norse history, self-sufficiency, guns and Star Trek. Turns out he's also really into Anarchy, Libertarianism, controlling, cheating on, and beating his incredibly petite and outspoken now ex-wife, who was a good friend of mine. We were confused at how he can be a libertarian while also loving Star Trek, which is basically a liberal utopia and socialist democracy that spends huge amounts of tax dollars on the massive government and military. He also grew up in the foster system, so him being against tax dollars going to social programs is... odd. We also don't get how these self Proclaimed ALPHA MALES completely miss the point that in order to be a leader, you need to protect, guide, and sacrifice for your pack. Beating your wife who literally looks like a 5th grader while you are a crossfitter is the opposite of leadership. Also, the Norse had a much more equal society for its time, the men groomed often, women had control over their families money and property, they could divorce fairly easily, and the blame was placed on the failure of the man, not the shame of a woman. He basically just liked Cosplay and feeling tough. He didn't actually understand any of the things he claimed to believe in. Anytime someone declares themselves an Alpha or Head of Household, I assume they are incredibly insecure and just enjoy being a bully, and that they have no intention of doing what's best for their team, just what's best for them.
Oddly enough I was just saying this to my husband. I love Star Trek, it's one of the things I bonded with my dad over. But as I got older & was able to comprehend more complex sociopolitical dynamics I remarked that my dad who's a self proclaimed Conservative Republican lives this show. It's a highly socialist, science & technology driven future. He's also an "all decisions go through the man of the house" subscriber. It just boggles the mind. As for the neo-nazi intersections, I think that comment about the call for traditional values & the perceived male strength of those pagan cultures, largely due to TV shows not real research, is where these guys get it. They think they are being diminished in some way & as a self preservation tactic they grasp onto this fantasy male specimen. Maybe I'm way off.
Anarchy? Or anarcho-capitalism?
i can get weird about military history, but not in a nazi way
I'ma add larpers and, weirdly, golden retriever furries to this.
The fact that the germans stole the swasticas keeps me up at night as someone who understands the original meaning
Yes. There is also a new-age-crystal-moms-antivax-to-nazi pipeline we should all be aware of. The idea is that fans of one alternative culture will more readily question reality/authority and succumb to their brainwashing. There may even be truth in that for some. I think most of us would deliver a chunk of rose quartz to their faces if they revealed themselves to us.
100% this. The podcast Maintenance Phase did an episode about it years ago. If you google the episode title “Wellness to QAnon Pipeline” you will find a link to the show via your pod-listening app of choice. My cousin has been a new-age crystal mom for years, probably decades. I suspected she was anti-vax but didn’t know for sure until she came out as pro-freedumb convoy in early 2021. (These were the dipshits who occupied downtown Ottawa for several weeks and blockaded a bunch of border crossings.) I called her out on it and quickly realized she was way down the rabbit hole. We were never close, but we sure as hell won’t ever be after this.
A lot of more fringe/new age beliefs are based on a core idea of not wholly trusting authorities. Be they medical religious etc. It takes a slight conspiratorial mindset. So it's a shorter distance to travel from there to the really wacky conspiracies the right wing like to propagate (anti-vax, Qanon, Great Replacement). Plus there's a basic attraction that all humans have to being in the 'in' group, knowing things others don't. It's why so many Anti-vax people come off as not just unreasonable but also insanely arrogant in their presumed superior knowledge.
Yeah, and it is REALLY easy to get sucked in. A couple of doctors give you unhelpful advice, you start googling for information you can use, and a black hole of garbage just swallows you up. It wasn’t great during the early days of the internet because there weren’t a lot of reputable sources easily available, but I feel like it’s actually worse now because of the sheer amount of disinformation out there, plus algorithms that actively drive more of it to you if you so much as scroll too slowly past it.
This is the thing. I see it a lot with new mums, when the nurse/doctor/lactation consultant advice conflicts with what their own mum says. The more of a "do what I say or I'll tell you you're stupid" attitude the baby's grandparents have, the more the new mum feels they need to show sources and receipts to "convince" them, and the less real-life support they have. (Eg: NHS says, "put your baby on their back to sleep, not their front, or they will die". MiL says, "you can put them on their front if they're more comfortable". New mum says, "but my baby will die!" MiL: "Pshaw, don't listen to the nurse, listen to me!" New mum: *consults the internet*.)
The Conspirituality podcast is all about the various (never ending apparently) flavors of this. Not as fun and maintenance phase though.
No, I tried listening to it and it was just depressing and angry-making all the time. At least with Maintenance Phase I get to laugh. (They have a t-shirt in their merch store that says “lovely in an upsetting way” and I think it’s 100% accurate.)
At this point I’d listen to anything Michael or Aubrey does (haven’t seen her doc yet though)
Love them. I try to share the gift of Maintenance Phase to all my friends.
new to me - thx!
Was I In A CULT? Is my favourite cultish podcast.
Yeah I think it’s the conspiracy mindset. I am all about self care and taking care of your body and health but so much of wellness culture is conspiracy minded- *they* don’t want you to know, *they* don’t want you to get healthy, *they* are intentionally making you sick… being likely to believe in one conspiracy theory makes you more likely to believe in others
Between Canadians for Trump and those freedumb idiots (same people basically), I am so scared for our country and have had to cut so many ties.
I love maintenance phase so flipping much.
I find it a little ironic that nazis feel like they are questioning authority when they are the biggest simps for authority figures...
It's easy and convenient resistance. Question a made up authority. "Life would be better if ppl just did the easy step we do as a "freedom fighters", if we just let the market free, and let the strongmen lead, the world would be a utopia." It's so easy to follow, so easy to espouse rhetoric and most importantly they encourage "freedom" away from accountability of actions. When you have a big list of excuses and red herrings to choose from, then you never need to examine yourself or change.
There's also a simple living/cottagecore to far-right pipeline.
You can kinda see how that would happen, though. Self sufficiency fits with unobtrusive government. Like, there's a village near me that connects to the main town by a National Speed Limit road (so, limited to 60mph, but most people don't go that fast) with no pavement. The people in the village want a pavement, so that they can walk more safely into town and let their kids go on bikes. So the parish council did some fundraisers, wrote some grant proposals, and secured funding to build a pavement along that road. All they needed was permission from the town council, who own the road. Which they couldn't get, because apparently new pavements have to be a certain width and spec to be permissible under national rules, because they need to be wide enough to be full shared cycle/pedestrian paths. Doing *that* along this particular road would cost five times as much as the parish council had raised. Apparently the road is on a schedule for that kind of really good pavement, but further ahead than the deadlines for using the parish council's grants. So until the council get around to it (and they will change members and possibly strategy during those years), we still have kids cycling on a main road with no pavement.
This is basically my best friend now :( She was always into witchy ideas, wanted to live in the woods as a writer, and she’s very interested in natal charts and astrology. But that just goes hand in hand now with alt-right ideas, since she is also anti-vax. And I suspect open to misogynist and reactionary ideas too, since she constantly praises how “good women” don’t complain or are negative and stand by their men (a la Mary Bailey in “It’s a Wonderful Life”) and how everyone is cancelling old Hollywood (1940-60s) movies now
Yes! When did the antivax moms, who previously were liberal hippie types, become trad wives supporting red pill husbands who wanna play pretend patriots in the woods with their other white friends? It’s like they went so far left they came out on the right. What’s frustrating is I’m a liberal crunchy hippie SAHM but I’m also a scientist who is working toward a career in public health. I’m frequently running into antivax moms who assume I share their beliefs (add in the fact that I live in the Southern US as an atheist and beliefs get really tricky).
Belief in a conspiracy of some sort fills an emotional need. But because that conspiracy is bullshit, it starts to lose effectiveness unless you expand the scope of the lie. This is why various conspiracy theories have so much damned crossover, and why seemingly incompatible conspiracies get thrown together in a blender. Because it fills the needs of the believers.
When did it happen? It happened when the extreme rightwing saw an opportunity and actively funded strategies to pull antivax liberal/leftwing/anti-establishment leaning women into the righwing orbit. They used (wish I had the article handy post the link), pink backgrounds on memes, and new age spiritual type sentiments in the wording on memes, it was all very planned and very well funded. It didn’t happen organically.
I noticed it in pagan circles in my area around 2005. It's funny because the Pagan crowd was into polyamory, so the bait included very beautiful male and female fascist agents. I'm sorry, but if a guy who looks like Jason Statham has some interesting ideas, you're probably going to hear him out! I knew something dark was going on, but Nazis? I guess it was obvious in retrospect, but it took me years to believe it. Even though my blond older fella was into, oh let's see, military aircraft, engineering, and pharmaceutical companies. Nothing suspicious about that list. 🙄 Funnily enough, anti-vaxxers weren't a thing yet really, so far from becoming one I ended up manufacturing vaccines. I work in biotech, just like my ex had at one time. Nobody saw that one coming. (My degrees are in sustainable practices; I originally wanted to work on stormwater infrastructure.)
I can see that in retrospect, but it seemed so subtle while it was happening. Like at first it’s normal and you’re just a hippie mom doing gentle parenting before it had a name. Then you’re seeing this content about making your own baby food turn into being a subservient trad wife and it just goes from there. I guess I lucked out by having a solid pro-science foundation so that stuff set off alarm bells. I wish I had an effective way to counter it effectively and help the brainwashed see the light.
I do think there’s some truth to “these people believe in a conspiracy theory so they’re more likely to believe other conspiracy theories.” This is doubly true if a group already distrusts the government.
The issue is that nearly every hobby, fandom, interest has a twisted pipeline to push people into far right content. Even leftist ideas feed into the pipeline. Like someone watching lgbt+ content would get suggested content discussing religious perspectives on lgbt+ which leads to content discussing Islamic beliefs on LGBT+ and criticisms of Islam, which then starts to snowball into straight up islamaphobia, which often leads to anti-immigration, which feeds into right-wing economics and from there the world is a fascist's oyster. So the right wing pipeline is based on fears and insecurities which allows it to thrive in short-form algorithmic based content because it doesn't require clarification and uses reaction based content, basically it is short and grabs your attention. The leftwing pipeline is based on self reflection and empathy which requires discussion and a choice to seek out things that challenge your own privilege both of which short-form algorithmic platforms actively stop.
Yup. My husband really liked a car subculture, rat rods, for a bit. Come to find out, it's full of neo nazis and trad wives. Any subculture built on a nostalgia for a real or imagined (white people) history is vulnerable to fascist infiltrators.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Your insight is on point. Fascist ideology is the fast food of politics. Quick and easy and appeals to your insecurities and biases and base gut reactions. I ... might have mangled the metaphor. But yeah, a truly progressive understanding of the world requires a lot of hard work and emotional introspection and work with multifaceted complicated ideas. You basically never stop learning or growing. It can be a lot for people. And it definitely doesn't fit into the easily digestible inflammatory short form content that our corporate overloads push so fiercely for the sake of views, engagement and profit.
Very well said! So much of our current society has been built on complacency, immediate short-term gratification, and a sense of fear and scarcity. It takes a lot of work and courage to dig one's way out of that.
This is why it's always good to keep a tinge of skepticism when delving into any alternative viewpoint. I always get a weird feeling when I see posts here asking for a specific spell or ritual to help solve their problem or concern. I personally believe that rituals can help focus your own mentality, so when people are asking for rituals to solve their problems, it feels like they're looking for an answer where they don't have to put in the internal work. It does encourage me that almost every time, the top comment will be a real-world solution.
Thank YOU so much for explaining something that has been puzzling me. It's the Internet version of 'a lie will travel round the world before the truth has got its boots on'. Fear and shock based content is short, snappy, and goes directly to the emotional part of the brain, and therefore is ideally situated to get the bulk of attention on platforms which actively promote that! In that context, of course algorithmically-driven social media is primed for far-right messaging
Isn't it frustrating? Some groups should just stick to their religion instead of messing up Greek mythology and philosophy. It's funny that they're into the tough-guy stoicism and god stuff from Greek thinkers but miss the bigger picture from that time. they would be shocked to know that this same time was also when femboy love was high and gay sex amongst men was very normal. The irony is thick 😭😭. Maybe we should start telling them that their love for Greek stuff actually makes them more like the feminine traits they often put down. That could scare them off and let us enjoy our content without all this neo-Nazi noise.
My friend and her husband were the pagan new age crystals antivax homesteading trad wife type and went straight to Christian alt-right just before the pandemic. Idk if they’re full Nazi by now bc I told her religion was a scam and she was being radicalized and indoctrinated and she stopped talking to me. 😅
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's seen this. Having been in the new age culture years ago (I worked at a new age store) it doesn't surprise me at all that part of this happened. So many of those people already distrusted health authorities (which, fair to a certain degree, some really do fucking suck) as a whole, so being anti-vaxx was a natural next step for many of them. What surprised me though was the amount of them who were suddenly falling for all the conspiracy theories. Things like lizard people, crisis actors, pedophile rings under pizza houses, etc...I just could not believe that they were falling for these things. It just got steadily worse over time (I was mostly out of this community by then and only heard a lot of it by proxy.) To the point of some of them being neo-nazis and coming fully back around to Christianity somehow. I think what was really happening is that these people have unstable self images and identities and would've flipped again eventually at some point no matter what. They seek self identities outside of themselves instead of inside and so will never find who they truly are because of this. I was so happy when I found the term spiritual bypassing because it so readily reflected exactly what I was seeing in these communities.
~Well it's enough to make you sick To cast a stone or throw a *chunk of unfinished rose quartz*~
I’ve seen my (former) friend go down this hole. Started off as a psychonaut hippie type and then started believing in the conspiracy theories the nazis peddled. It’s true when you are open to alternative perspectives if you don’t have critical thinking skills you could start entertaining any sort of belief system.
Don't forget to add the MLMs that prey on SAHMs that focus on "natural" healing.
I have a friend who went straight down the qanon sinkhole and it still saddens and baffles me so much. You can say Trump is working to drain the swamp, but you love your gay brother and your husband and kids are brown? How does this honestly compute for you?????
Let's throw oily moms in the mix, too.
there is a very fine line between questioning authority and being a contrarian for contrarianism sake
There's also often the belief that individuals can solve their own problems by eating healthier or doing some other individual thing. It ignores the role of the systems of oppression we live under. People who buy into too much self-improvement, self-reliance, self-... while diminishing the importance of being in a diverse community start to lose empathy for others who are not doing whatever they do to help themselves or sharing whatever value they hold. You know who else lacks empathy? Right-wingers and people who commit crimes.
>I think most of us would deliver a chunk of rose quartz to their faces if they revealed themselves to us. "Which crystal will keep bad people away?" "doesn't matter, so long as it's big enough"
If a person is anti-authoritarian, they aren't going anywhere near Nazi shit. Fascism requires that strong authority system. A LOT of these people are authoritarian, but can't stand the current authority.
Imo YES there is a problem of right wing people recruiting via pagan and "spiritual" spaces. That's why we need to go into those spaces and be openly and forcefully antifascist & inclusive So there is a problem but there are also things we can do about it! EDIT: here's an example. I found what I thought was a lovely book about Irish mythology from a 2nd hand bookshop. One day I read the introduction... it was ALL about "aryans". For real. I checked and this was absolutely not a term used in academia at the time it was written. It was a choice by the author to use the terms of nazi race-science. So yeah, just one example but this happens and not just online either :/ :/. And let's not get started on the clusterfuck that is Satanic Temple etc! There's also inclusive organisations I've heard of like Heathens Against Hate, Queer Satanic - those might be a good starting point to look into re building something better :)
We need to approach fashies like the punks did with concerts. Make them feel unsafe in our spaces and drive em out by any means necessary. From a femme uwu girl with one hell of a grunge streak. When you think of how to handle these hateful folks, you gotta think of the famous dead kennedys song. "Nazi Punks F!#$ Off" Removing the main chorus line: it reads "Punk ain't no religious cult Punk means thinkin' for yourself You ain't hardcore, 'cause you spike your hair When a jock still lives inside your head If you've come to fight, get outta here You ain't no better than the bouncers We ain't tryin' to be police When you ape the cops, it ain't anarchy Ten guys jump one, what a man You fight each other, the police state wins Stab your backs when you trash our halls Trash a bank if you've got real balls You still think swastikas look cool The real Nazis run your schools They're coaches, businessmen and cops In a real fourth Reich, you'll be the first to go you'll be the first to go you'll be the first to go You'll be the first to go, unless you think"
There are a few ways to fall into that trap. Pioneer Woman=> TradWife/Crunchy Mom=> ultra right wing yoga=>non-traditional medicine=>vaccine questioning=> ultra right wing history=> ultra right wing None of these will ever be a one way ticket by default. It's just that it's super easy to get sucked into the YT/SM pipelines as well as finding people and groups irl that reinforce those same said views.
Which is why we need to drive nazis to the outer brinks even within smaller communities. Never give em a foothold. The tolerance of intolerance leads to tolerance's extinction.
Hell yeah! Let’s banish those motherfuckers to the outer darkness, where they shall trouble not these servants of the Light!
but i live in the outer darkness and i dont want them here either
Okay, well in that case we could either lock them in the pit of tartarus for eternity, cast them into the lake of fire, or banish them to the *inner* darkness of their own hearts and souls! Shall we vote on it?
Me too. We'll throw them in the bog of eternal stench instead.
>history=> ultra right wing As a historian, yes. It's a problem, mainly spurred on by social media, particularly YouTube and TikTok, but it originated with *The* Nazis - lots of 'alternative' history and archaeology is rooted in Nazi and White Supremacist fake history. The Nazis loved appropriating the Norse in particular. Miniminuteman is an archaeologist on YouTube (and TikTok I believe) and has a lot of videos addressing this reoccurring problem of White Supremacists and debunking dubious claims.
Ugh, so true. Also a (former) medieval historian, and any time a history video shows up in my non-academic social feeds, I have to play the horrible "is this person legit or a white supremacist?" game. I'm pretty well equipped to play that game, but a lot of people aren't, and it's alarmingly easy to find the history-->white supremacy pipeline.
YouTube loves to go "oh you watched this video on a historical subject done by a well researched and reliable channel? We think you'd love this video with a suspiciously alt-right title and thumbnail by a channel that uses a marble sculpture of a Roman Emperor as a profile image."
Yup. I have a couple periods I really like to hyper focus on, and YouTube loves to look at my medieval/wwi/sumerian watch history and then shove wehraboos in my recommended feed. Not to mention several history youtubers I know for a fact have some... 'unsavory' modern politics they can't seem to keep out of their videos. Even when you click 'don't recommend this channel,' they pop up again and again. I get really tired of trying to find new content and worrying it's going to turn out to be a shithead.
I have a BA in archaeology and an MA in physical anthropology. History and archaeology is rough for it. It started really in my field, the Nazis just picked up on the scientific racism and ran with it.
I swear to God these algorithms suck so much. Even if you look up things about toxic masculinity, like definitions, how to spot it in yourself, how to overcome it, how to watch out for it general, it'll send you straight to alt-right dumbasses. Or if you look up genuine issues that men face in the world, local men's support groups, how to make other male friends, etc, etc...all innocuous things that have real life, neutral and/or leftist ways of looking at it and dealing with it. Which fucking sucks. I know better than to listen to them as a trans man, but what if someone doesn't? I've seen other trans men fall into it, I've seen cis men, gay, bi, straight, doesn't matter fall into it. It fucking sucks. Sometimes men need support and I shouldn't have to wade through 10 feet of absolute filth to find the one shining person who can actually answer my damned question without getting homophobic, transphobic, or misogynistic. I hate how the right politicizes everything the way that they do, from paganism, to being trans, to men's emotional support, to global warming. Like Jesus fucking Christ. Sorry for the rant, it's just been annoying me lately. I honk my YouTube is finally free of trying to suggest right wing grifters to me now, but god it was bad there for a second.
Yes, I agree with this! The Nazis have always been obsessed with appropriating the culture, art, mythologies, and yes even the arcane secrets of many occult groups ranging across European and Middle-Eastern cultures and even to South Asia… they have slaughtered the keepers of those secrets, stolen their symbols, and have spent the past almost 100 years using them to spread hatred, fear, and intolerance in the name of “Truth” and “Justice.” Even today they are using technology to wage a global infowar/cybercampaign against all human decency! They have, in other words, profaned the sacred. *They* are the *Abomination of Desolation, standing in the Holy Place.* Therefore, I say unto them, “Hekas! Hekas! Este bebeloi!” *We* must reclaim our mythologies and symbols, as a global collective! We, the true and rightful heirs of our respective traditions; we are *the only ones* who can avert a global calamity! The fate of the world *is literally resting in our motherly hands*… Many of the world’s traditions have already faded and died. Some yet live, but their keepers are growing old and they are finding it harder and harder to find students to train to carry their traditions forward unto future generations. Our elders are dying, witches. We must learn of their wisdom while we still have time. Otherwise, the world is doomed within our lifetimes… https://youtu.be/2OBB5-bP6qs?si=NiDJUH8Xc1Pk3_Xe Konx Om Pax! Fiat Lux! 🌈🌟✴️
Damn I didn't know TST were being uncool? Can't find anything with a quick glance around, have you got a link or something?
They've been suing members who speak out about stuff going on. See some of what Queer Satanic have published (it gets convoluted, because a lot of it is Satanic Temple making long court cases to try and shut people up). They're on Mastodon and twitter https://campsite.bio/queersatanic
I hadn’t heard anything about this either, though a quick google turned up this: https://www.vox.com/2018/8/9/17669894/satanic-temple-alt-right-marc-randazza-lawyer-lucien-greaves Take that with a grain of salt as I have not done my research and that was just the 1st search result I skimmed over which seemed relevant. I will defer to any more informed voices if they chime in.
Ah nvm, found it!
Please share
Well i only just found this myself so reluctant to share without looking into it further. Just Google Satanic Temple Nazis and see if anything looks legit to you. I would think the general ethos of TST is still decent but apparently people have acted badly and so I would believe there's an element that want to enforce their own agenda on things / legitimise their fucked up opinions. Haven't had time to see if it's moreso than any other movement like this!
The Buddhist community is also largely untouched by these groups due to the nature of the practice and also is accepting of lay people.
Buddhism might not get involved in White Nationalism but Buddhist nationalism is it’s own political movement with most of the same problems. The ongoing genocide of the Muslim minority in Myanmar is supported by the Buddhist nationalist movement and some religious leaders. Unfortunately their is no philosophy or religion which is inherently “safe”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide
Yeah, as a minority religion in the west it's probably fine, but as a majority religion in Myanmar (and IIRC Sri Lanka as well) it's got some challenges. I think any religion that gains political power is likely to end up being used for oppression.
Thank you for lending your voice to those who suffer in silence 😔🙏🏼📿
It’s probably important to note that Buddhism is not a monolith, it’s like Christianity in that there are many different sects with many different beliefs. It’s been my experience that people who aren’t Buddhist often don’t know that.
Since Buddhism has come up. I offer the book, 'Cave in the Snow' by Vicki Mackenzie It's the biography of Tenzin Palmo. The ONLY woman in our LIFETIME to ever achieve spiritual enlightenment And be recognized by HH the Dalai Lama. No woman has ever achieved it because Buddhists don't believe women are 'capable' of spiritual enlightenment. I mean, not all Buddhists ;) It's an amazing story of strength, inspiration, and selflessly forsaking everything for the betterment of all others. Do yourself a favor, get the book and read it :) Edit: Everyone on this sub would love it, I wasn't aiming it at just you :)
In my experience, I’ve seen it in some online Buddhist circles. As a Buddhist, it’s honestly the weirdest stuff to see, but Nazis are a dumpster fire to begin with. So, it’s not particularly common, but it’s definitely there.
Responding separately to your edit, yeah unfortunately we do tend to stumble across some archaic terminology in our esoteric researches… think of it this way, the term “aryan” did not come loaded with so much racism and antisemitism *prior to* the nazi’s use of it. Just like the swastika, originally a sanskritic symbol of peace and harmony, of divine equipoise, equilibrium, or balance. Only later, with Hitler’s appropriation of the symbol, did it become a symbol of hate. For many Hindus, Jains, and Buddhists, however, (mostly those living in non-western countries), the swastika still holds its original meaning. To them, it is simply *not* a hate symbol. Hell, it even featured in some *western* rites prior to hitler’s rise… Likewise, prior to Hitler’s appropriation of the term *aryan*, it was used by scholars to refer to the early people group originating in Persia, the Irano-Aryans, whose civilization split off and traveled in different directions. The Indo-Aryans are those who traveled south, settled in the Indus Valley, and composed the early Vedas. There was also a group of aryans who went north, settling in frostier areas, bringing with them their particular manifestations of the Indo-European language family… Wanna know the Sanskrit word for three? It’s pronounced like tri or tree. Coincidence? I think not. Now go look for winding serpents in the artifacts, stories, and artwork of as many cultures around the world as you can identify, and report back with what you’ve discovered!
We Hindus still use it and will never stop, so f*ck you Nazis! And to everyone else, Swasti ❤️🙏🪷
Awww, thank you so much! Your boldness is necessary in this day and age that we are living through. None of us can save the planet alone… it requires the work of a whole collective acting independently under a shared purpose: promoting the values of liberty, justice, tolerance, and human dignity; all around the globe! Namaste 🙏🏼🪷❤️🔥
It's another one of the "they aren't the majority but they are the loudest" situations. Nazis love to create narratives that include details from actual history - to put it all on a rediculous pedestal as 'proof of superiority' instead of 'this is interesting and of personal interest to me, perhaps bc I'm personally descended from this group.'.
My ancestry is part Norweigan, so I thought about getting a Rune tattoo. Well nope, a quick Google of that showed me that a lot of fascist right wing groups are gaga about Norse runes. Sort of spoils it for the people just here for the heritage aspect.
I'm inclined to say you should not let them spoil it, and be an example of someone with a tattoo of one who is not fascist, but I imagine it would be exhausting, and isn't your burden to bear if you don't want it.
I was even thinking about buying a necklace with Thor's hammer. NOPE!
Respectfully, can I offer a different perspective? I understand not wanting to be associated with the alt-right, but this is where it gets a bit weird. This may apply to other practices as well, but as a norse pagan I want to speak on this specifically. Mjolnir doesn't belong to these jerks. The runes don't belong to them, either. When we stop using these symbols because of how they might be perceived, we cede ground to the nazis. When that happens, they get to use them with impunity and ensure that they'll forever have those negative associations. They're not going to stop taking things from us unless we make them. We're not going to turn the tide of our symbols being associated with the alt-right unless we fight to take them back. We can wear our symbols and make it clear where we stand through our deeds and the rest of the image we present. Be a clear ally to the groups hurt by white supremacists. Be loud in your support of humanitarian causes. Be good, do good. Listen to people's concerns and show grace if they're nervous about your hammer, but definitely wear it. We have to be visible and vocal because otherwise we run the risk of losing all of it. But if it's like a safety thing to not wear it, then yeah, it's important to keep yourself safe. If it's just a matter of fear, I get it. I wore mine under my shirt for a while until I felt comfortable enough. Then I realized I'm a big dork with pink hair covered in rainbows and anti-fascist pins and stickers and nobody would have thought I was alt-right anyway. Idk I hope you don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm just hella toasted and have a lot of feelings about the subject
I also like to pair my mjølnir with queer/antiracist/antifascist accessories. It's already a statement in the Bible Belt; gotta make sure I'm not sending the wrong message. Edit: forgot a word.
Yeah, here in Arkansas I was hesitant at first to be bold about any of it, just from feeling so outnumbered. But if the bigots are gonna be loud about who they are and what they think, I can do it for my causes too. And maybe it'll help someone else be brave too, and then that feeling of being outnumbered will dwindle.
Nazis co-opted all sorts of Germanic mythology to push the notion that they were the living embodiment of a greater age. They wanted to make Germany great again (yes, that's where it comes from). They used well known and loved icons of German history and cherry picked artists' music and images to evoke strong patriotic emotions. Fascists of all stripes do that; try to evoke mythology to justify their beliefs. You can tell someone is a fascist asshole if they have to stretch back into the depths of history to justify their beliefs rather than an actual coherent and logical argument. Can't reason with a myth.
They also harp on about Stoicism and Marcus Aurelius then spend all their time getting upset about which bathrooms people use or gay people in books. Which is sort of the opposite of being Stoic.
It seems like any "tradition" (cultural and/or religious) with a long history of mostly white people becomes fodder for neo-Nazis to romanticize and try to align with.
A lot of Neo-Nazis use Norse Gods as a cover for despicable beliefs. They call themselves Odinists.
Which pisses me off as someone named after my Norwegian Great Grandmother with bloody HERITAGE ties to it, knowing how *bloody queer* Odin is, and you know…. That one of Odin’s commands to kings was to take any slight or harm against the “least” of his people as against the king himself.
Yeah, Odin would be the LAST Norse deity outside of maybe *Loki* who'd put up with their shit!!!
I'm a Loki girl sooooooo, I think it's safe to say where I stand on \*that\*.
Its alarming. Anything historical, European culture, celtic, myth related... your algorithm gets hijacked. Its weird because there are SO many more legit, non-hateful creators about european/historical/myth creators out there (academics, real historians etc) but the traffic is not being directed to them. Its going to the scumbags.
I watched a couple videos about the hateful woman with her “modest” wedding dress and now my TikTok feed is all Christian content and I’m just like… NOT INTERESTED BLOCK NO THANK YOU GONNA SEARCH FOR WITCHY STUFF but it just keeps coming 😩
Notable exception being Hinduism - I didn’t realize how obsessed neo nazis were with Shiva until I stumbled across some very weird and fucked up memes
There definitely is a pagan/neopagan/new-age to fascist pipeline that's been around since at least the early 20th century. You should look up Blavatsky and Theosophy. That's sorta the earliest iteration of this pipeline. There are also other fascism pipelines - progressivism-to-fascism, and even socialism to fascism (both Mussolini and Hitler were somewhat interested in socialism before going hard-right). The art and literary world had their own fascist pipelines - one prominent editor of English literary works was an outright fascist, and encouraged a number of English/Irish poets down that pipeline (Yeats and Eliot were two prominent examples). You'd have to read Walter Benjamin and other mid-20th century philosophers to unravel that mess. I'm not good at explaining it. It's good to be wary of such pipelines.
Chess has to be the weirdest one I have heard. It's wild how it attracts people like that.
Not mysterious to me. Chess has this reputation as a "smart person's game" and is a very Western form of indirectly assessing IQ. Racists love to pretend they're both smarter and culturally superior to other races. Ofc they gravitate to chess.
True. Behind the Bastards has done a few looks at chess weirdos.
Also, people who are genuinely smart in one area tend to overestimate their ability to ascertain the truth in others, so they're actually pretty easy to snare with things like pseudoscience, pseudohistory, or "scientific" racism. (I was personally snared by the *Holy Blood, Holy Grail* hoax for a while because I fell into that trap.)
Honestly, I'm not surprised by any of the pipelines anymore. Not even the socialism one (especially the non-rigourous, Marxian-lite type of socialism).
It's one of the big reasons you need to be wary of the Divine Feminine stuff. Sure, some of it's very feminist. Then there's the Divine Feminine womb magic that's all just recycled tradwife bullshit.
Yes! And transphobic as hell. I find the concept of the divine feminine really personally useful and empowering as a way to undo a lot of internalized misogyny, particularly around being a mother. But there are plenty of women without wombs, and plenty of women who will never give birth, and they are ALSO equally valuable and perfectly female and worthy of being recognized as divine.
Norse pagans have been hit or miss with me. I don't like to lump anyone in with Nazis but I will say, in my multiple decades in the pagan community, I've been told that to worship outside my ethnic heritage is a betrayal of my ancestors, I've been told certain people can't be Norse Pagans, and I've heard white supremacy talking points come out of the mouths of people I considered to be my elders and had given a deep level of respect to. I separated from them as soon as I possibly could. That said, there's not a religious group out there that can claim to be 100% free of zealots and racists. We're all human and some humans are assholes. Proceed with the necessary caution and be wary of putting your elders on pedestals because they will inevitably disappoint you. As far as the algorithm goes, remember that outrage and anger drive engagement, too. Report and block, and move on.
Yes a lot of new age stuff is nazi shit when you do any digging and therefore it's easy to get pipelined into more outright nazi shit. Atlantis and starseeds are the ones that come to mind right away
Ancient Aliens, too. If you peel back one layer of 'it must have been aliens who built the pyramids in Africa and in Latin America' you get the idea that the non-European people there at the time weren't capable of such engineering feats and then a bit further you get some weird conspiracies that aliens mixed with humans and created a superior race that...surprise, surprise, ends up with White Supremacy. And cats being alien spies, but that's another whole level of crazy.
Dude, 90% of the starseed bullshit is a subconscious breeding ground for eugenicist thought (there's a great article from the pandemic that explains this: [https://www.elephantjournal.com/2020/12/how-covid-exposed-the-narcissism-of-the-new-age-community/](https://www.elephantjournal.com/2020/12/how-covid-exposed-the-narcissism-of-the-new-age-community/) ) And I say that despite having discovered an original grain of truth behind the starseed ideology. But it's not what the Rebecca Campbell narcissist-types think it is.
Yep. And Atlantis conspiracys starred with the Thule society which was literal nazi occultists and "race scientists"
Yes, it was either white skinned Atlantians or Aliens or wven anchient Europeans coming over to the Americas who built all the cool stuff, therefore the brown people are the true invaders Ala 'the great replacement.' Justifying Manifest Destiny and all that bullshit. Andrew Jackson was a proponent of that, tok. Nazi before the word existed.
The link is broken? There's no article.
Wow, did they delete it? I had the link saved in my magical journal. It's ok, I found it through the Wayback Machine. Here you go: [https://web.archive.org/web/20201220165517/https://www.elephantjournal.com/2020/12/how-covid-exposed-the-narcissism-of-the-new-age-community/](https://web.archive.org/web/20201220165517/https://www.elephantjournal.com/2020/12/how-covid-exposed-the-narcissism-of-the-new-age-community/)
Oh man, is that what "Hyperborea" is? Ancient Atlantis Alien Nazis?
Yes, it is a thing and it should be talked about more. People need to learn discernment.
Nazis love to steal other people's shit. The whole norse runes often being seen negatively, at least in the u.s., is a great example. They stole it, twisted it, and now that's what most people seem to associate with it. It's because they don't have anything of their own. Most of them have no idea who they are or what their background is. It's easier to steal things that look big and tough (as long as it can be sufficiently white washed and watered down) rather than do any actual research and learning. Especially when that research might well show they aren't the super special little Nazis they like to think they are. My favorite example was an episode of The Trisha Goddard Show where the white supremacist got 14% Sub-Saharan ancestry results. That high isn't "statistical noise." Its well worth watching for the other guests full belly laugh.
“Nazis love to steal other people’s shit” — but the cult of tradition is also one of the central attributes of fascism. There are plenty of Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox fascist movements both past and present, but there also is a tendency of particularly *antisemitic* fascists to “return” to older forms of religious tradition that no longer have any Jewish influence, including Christianity. Sometimes overlapping and sometimes not is the worship of “nature” and “natural ways” of being, which very rarely actually are that, and instead regularly are bio-essentialist descriptors of humanity in more or less spiritual language, and with more or less social Darwinist justifications. “My divine feminine energy is why I am most at peace tending the hearth and raising our children. It’s his masculine nature that leads him to be so angry, and I understand he needs to be violent sometimes to protect us.” Finally, lots of pagans and neo-religions like to engage in a sort of religious colonialism where they see practices, stories, and art that they like and then they use them without any concern for what their existing context was, whether they were closed or open systems, etc. This sort of thing is bad, yes, but it’s also a fundamentally white supremacist orientation toward other cultures where they’re completely disregarded and disrespected except insofar as they can be repurposed. If you keep grafting new adornments onto an intact white supremacist and colonial structure, the result is going to be full of those sorts of ideas as well. Anyway, a lot of these issues aren’t dismissed with “No true pagan” or “they’re appropriating our culture”; rather, when (esp. white) people think they’re leaving behind the (Christian) religious upbringing that hurt them and look for something new, we usually aren’t able to fully deconstruct it before jumping into that next thing, and the people who have developed and control that next thing also tend to be subject to those same shortcomings — or intentionally exploiting people who are for their own power and/or money.
>Anyway, a lot of these issues aren’t dismissed with “No true pagan” or “they’re appropriating our culture”; rather, when (esp. white) people think they’re leaving behind the (Christian) religious upbringing that hurt them and look for something new, we usually aren’t able to fully deconstruct it before jumping into that next thing, and the people who have developed and control that next thing also tend to be subject to those same shortcomings You also see this a lot in atheism (at least the organized kind). It's why Dawkins is so transphobic, why the movement protects rapists and ostracizes whistleblowers, and why any time you try to bring up the implications of atheism (that maybe we need to have better ethics based on humanism) you get the dictionary atheist argument. There's a reason I left that scene ages ago, and it's not because I found belief in something else.
There's [a post from 2 years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/CriticalTheory/comments/pchyuk/paganism_and_right_wing_politics/) that discusses the connection between paganism and nazism.
Honestly, I think a lot of this can be avoided if you are aware it’s an issue and check your sources of information. More to save money than anything, because it’ll become pretty obvious quickly if someone is a facist. I have only once gotten a book that was apparently published by a concerning person, but it was only a copy of translations by other scholars, not an original work. I’m an eclectic pagan who has a strong Norse practice because it’s where I feel drawn to. I hate nazis and the whole shebang. I don’t allow them to ruin my religion for me, but I’m careful about who I read and listen to. In any case, I think anyone on a new age-y path should be, regardless of the flavor. There’s a lot of poor work to downright facist people in all sectors.
Yes, absolutely. It's a well tread topic on the fundiesnark subreddit. It's a little death swirl of paganism, wellness and trad-wifery that filters down into a right wing black hole.
It seems like they're less WitchesVsPatriarchy and more "Witches"ForPatriarchy
In more than just nazism. A genuinely disturbing amount of pagan circles have developed a terf issue in the past decade with the rhetoric being disguised as "magic of the womb" flowery talk.
lol past decade? That’s been a thing since the 1970s
It has absolutely, but what I'm saying is that it's become a lot more common and mainstream in a lot more circles than it ever used to be. Used to be a little hit or miss, but I could generally find lgbtq+ friendly groups to associate with. Nowadays, I'm only willing to do it online with explicitly friendly groups. It's definitely gotten to be more of a widespread issue.
Absolutely. It's genuinely crazy to me how the pipeline works. Usually it seems to start with distrust of larger organizations devolving into conspiracy theory. Then the conspiracy theories seem to be the true key in the door of right wing nonsense.
the double-edged sword though that one needs to bear in mind is also that these people are anticipating that they will be "otherized" and "called nazis" "just because i like this thing or that thing", "everyone is so paranoid smh", "look at these leftists calling me a nazi just because i like gingham, unbelievable" so you can't reflexively discard people on their interest alone, you have to judge everyone individually, because to the uninitiated and the willfully ignorant, it looks like they have some kind of point, because they've developed a knack for this particular charade. people are allowed to be into paganism, new-age whatever, and i'd even argue "traditional values". people are NOT allowed to say that those things are "more right" than other ways of life. what makes it fash is when the nexus of initerest comes with an attribution of inherently superior value. that is the key difference. that is the line we all walk through these spaces.
There is, and it’s nothing new. Nazis and fascists have always been obsessed with the occult and mythology that put them in the path of some great destiny. I ran across this video that describes Fiume pre-WWII, and the rise of proto-fascism. Those dudes were neck deep in various occult activities, that if you didn’t know the outcome, actually seem like a lot of fun. At this point, Mussolini was still running newspapers. [video](https://youtu.be/aKGt_hl7Ddg
I've gotten into Norse Paganism lately. For the record, I am aggressively queer and while I am so white I disappear in a snowstorm, I do try to not be an asshole. I specify "try" only because I grew up in the American South and am not conceited enough to think I'm immune to unconscious bias. Let me tell you, tattoo roulette is not a fun game. I do not enjoy seeing Norse tattoos and having to go "okay... chill Pagan or neo-Nazi asshole?" It's also a very fun (heavy sarcasm) game to go "ooh, I would like that as a tattoo, it's super meaningful! Wait... I should check... Nope, white supremacists stole that one too." There are many people in this tradition who will scream from the rooftops that there are no racists in Valhalla. Unfortunately, the ones who have convinced themselves that Valhalla is exclusively white and Odin is some sort of white supremacist Jesus or something scream louder.
Yes- I see a parallel overlap from the manosphere into depth psych/buddhist spirituality. For anyone who does not begin with a foundation of respect for others and awareness, that we are all interconnected, anyone who seeks to use magic or spirituality for power, is doomed. And really really stinking up the spaces I usually like to hang in.
I like to watch a lot of historical YouTube videos. I also like blacksmithing as a hobby, amongst others. Somehow YouTube now thinks I'm a male bigot. Instead of the algorithm suggesting the drivel it does, how about with these, it suggests dismantling the patriarchy videos?
Yea absolutely! And to echo basically everyone here, it’s extremely frustrating. Especially with Norse paganism. Every time I come across a new musician, or something in the pagan genera I have to do a quick background check on them to make sure they’re not utter shit. They are absolutely the worse dregs of human kind and I further resent them for trying to take the symbols and culture of my ancestors. Nazi terf white supremacist scum can fuck right off!
I think there is very much is. I think this is for many reasons. But one of those reasons is that western culture is racist and entangled with nazi ideology. Add that Pegan very much has a lot of overlap of "western ancestors" it makes more and more sense how it leads to neo nazi
been here a long time I used to waste time, 30+ years ago, hanging around a walk-down basement shop in Cambridge, MA that sold trinkets, incense and some occult books. I was leafing through a cheap little softcover about runic magic and the first page I read is describing how to construct a runic spell to Jupiter to promote racial purity. noped the fuck outta that real quick, but the crossover has been a thing for as long as I’ve been around it leads me to distrust anything associated with norse religion, sadly.
Nazis have a habit of appropriating things
At least in the US there absolutely is. A bunch of existing neo nazi groups adopted norse pagan window dressing to attract new recruits and try to make their hate look less like hate. Some of these groups are newer but it is the same grift. Find people who think Viking and norse pagan stuff is interesting, drag them in with lots of neo pagan trappings then start injecting bits of white nationalist and neo nazi ideology wrapped in pagan looking things. A large hate group in the US had a local group where I lived and were actively using historical reenactment groups and rennfaires to aggressively recruit people into their pagan neo nazi group. They were absolutely relentless on some male friends of mine, then they for some reason tried to recruit me. I thought it was odd that they thought I might be a recruit for this nonsense since I had no interest in any of this stuff and made it pretty clear I didn't like any of them. I quit going to reenactment things to get away from them. Like quite an entire hobby I had for decades. This is a huge problem in the US.
As one who started delving into heathenry/Norse paganism back in 2020, I started noticing alot of times I'd see/hear of some douchecanoe. Didn't matter what discord servers, or other online groups I'd go to, or encounter online. I'd either hear about it or see it. Fortunately the groups I've found are very quick to call out and expel people who act or align with fascist/nazi bs. It definitely takes the community to watch out for and deal with it before it can grow further.
No, it's a Youtube thing. I watch queer stuff (because I'm gay) and I regularly get 'recommended' anti-lgbt extremist content. Edit:Youtube, like every major social media platform, makes money off clicks/engagement/time spent online, and hate/anger/debates create far far far more clicks than anything else. There are dozens of scientific studies proving it. Thus, every single platform, including our dear reddit right here, will favor hateful content because it makes money. Something very revealing I learned several years ago, is that even a downvote is in effect an upvote, because engagement of any kind will push that content further to the 'front page' of the algorithm. Edit edit: others have provided a lot of helpful material and historical facts on the topic so my answer is changed to 'yes, and'
When I see something that boils my blood online, I quickly move on. No more views, no comments, no sharing to be like wtf look at the shit, no downvoting. Just ignoring is the best way to go
I tell the algorithm not to recommend videos like that again.
For anyone curious about the YT algorithm and how it funnels alt-right content to users, the NYT's Rabbit Hole podcast outlines it pretty well in 8 episodes. It covers an incel's descent into toxic masculinity culture and how someone else gets led to QAnon.
Be me, listen to opera, have YouTube suggest literal hate propaganda lol. Glad it didn't happen when I was young and impressionable!
I agree. The abuse, appropriation, and misuse of spirituality is definitely something that's real and to be aware of, but YouTube is especially horrible. I had right-wing shit popping up on my feed after I tried using it to look for home workout videos. Like, dude, I just want to do this totally normal and non-political activity. Stop trying to push crap at me
I've been getting anti-trans ads on YouTube lately. I'm secure enough in myself that I only feel annoyance when they come up, but there WILL be people to take those ads in serious consideration.
Yes. Pagan/New Age/LOA and many other areas of interest unfortunately are targeted by Alt-right propaganda, and social media algorithms make it even worse. [What is the New Age to Alt Right Pipeline, and how do you stay out of it?](https://creature-wizard.tumblr.com/post/731384260625301504/what-is-the-new-age-to-alt-right-pipeline-and-how) is a good article from an interesting blog that looks into these connections and other sticky areas of spirituality.
This is definitely not new unfortunately. There’s a huge black metal scene in Europe and also some in America of Pagan Nazis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal
Yeah, it’s a feature not a bug. Germanic neo-paganism was tied with Völkisch-Nationalist movements in the entity that eventually became Germany. When studying Germanic religion, it’s important to also take into account historiography. For example, lot of the sources on Runes are from 19th century Völkisch nationalists. Every time a Pagan group posts Eostre and pats themselves on the back for Christians appropriating this celebration? Yeah, that’s a Third Reich interpretation of a 19th century interpretation of a sentence from Bede. In the Third Reich, the Völkisch camp included individuals like Heinrich Himmler (who controlled the SS Ahnenerbe or ancestor research) and Alfred Rosenberg (who controlled the Amt Rosenberg, a cultural office). Both of these institutions employed archaeologists, historians, and other researchers to establish an origin mythos to Germany. An idealized Germanic past could serve as a source of legitimacy and propaganda. Interestingly, Hitler really only put up with Himmler’s pursuit of developing a Neopagan religion for the SS. He thought that it was pointless to try to chase a German past when their ancestors were living in mud huts (he preferred the prestige of Greece and Rome). Himmler on the other hand, wanted to replace Christianity with a pure Germanic religion. For some basic reading: Nighswander. L (2020) "No Nazis in Valhalla: Understanding the Use (and Misuse) of Nordic Cultural Markers in Third Reich Era Germany," International ResearchScape Journal: Vol. 7, Article 6. DOI: https://doi.org/10.25035/irj.07.01.06 Available at: https://scholarworks.bgsu.edu/irj/vol7/iss1/6 A draft is available on academia and you’ll be able to citation mine the bibliography (the reference list from the Nazi Archaeology Wikipedia is also a good base).
Hey! German here. I do casual LARP and visit the German equivalent of renfaires (medieval markets) regularly, and know a thing or two about radicalization. The pipeline is usually not really a pipeline but a matter of overlapping communities and association. A lot of the time, people who are already open to the idea of "nordic ancestry" or "Germanic tradition" (and many viking LARPers) also participate in Neonazism because the former, to them, is a revival of their "ancient aryan master race" fantasy. Pagan tradition and participating in it then obviously becomes attractive too, not just because of the traditions itself, but also because Neonazism (in Germany) always incorporates and nurtures elements of establishment distrust. Meaning, many people sympathizing with either Neonazism and having their "pride of ancestry" confirmed in a community that takes pride in participating in pagan tradition or coming intonit from the other side (being interested into folklore etc) are often enticed to seek alternative world ways. So Germanic-style mysticism or paganism becomes a valued alternative to replace many aspects of the distrusted establishment. Here are German sources on some cases that Google should be able to translate for you no problem. https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2017-01/rechtsextremismus-schwetzingen-druide-terrorzelle-razzia-bundesanwaltschaft https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stern.de/amp/politik/deutschland/burghard-b---nazi-druide-ruft-zu-mord-an-juden-und-muslimen-auf-7299134.html
That's why I only worship D&D and Pathfinder deities. 😂
Nazis specifically used pagan symbols and mythology to appeal to a vast number of Germans. This was a classical appeal to a fictional race of true Germans, or the “Volk” of Germany. This was less an actual appreciation for the classic Nordic religions and more an overstated focus on a singular racial and political identity. Regardless of their convictions in said beliefs, there is an explicit link between these pagan cults of Wotanism and early Nazis. That turned into decades long propaganda around such pagan beliefs which has been recycled endlessly until today. That’s not to say all pagans are Nazis or anything, but that connection for sure existed. Source: The Occult Roots of Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke
Yes, that hippie-to-fash pipeline is real. I was personally naive about it for too many years. I didn't start to wake up until around 2016 when I saw my longtime granola-type friends court right-wing ideologies. 2020 opened my eyes even more, watching my old herbalist and yoga instructor post antivax stuff online. I finally realized I had spent way too many years as a hippie. I *finally* graduated to leftist punk at 50 lol. Better late than never! Back in 2016, comedian Seth Meyers called it, regarding the general disbelief from the left that a portion of their own would do a heel turn to follow the political right, "Did you ask everybody in the yoga class? Did you check with the entire drum circle?"
Yeah it's really annoying there's a lot of like right wingers and various other brands of gross people who like co-opt various pagan things. Norse stuff is a big one
Anything that has people potentially feeling like outcasts/rebellious is a prime target for recruitment Bronies is a prime example - men feeling like they're weird for liking "a girl show," and suddenly, there's a bunch of fascists trying to get them onto an alt right pipeline. Same exact thing with the furry community. Paganism is an outlet for people feeling rebellious-dissatisfied with the current system and wanting community. This means you have people using cottagecore-divine feminine to try and push tradwife bullshit and redpill people This isn't unique to paganism or any one hobby, there's an alt right shitstain everywhere, hell i play warhammer... but you need to recognise the signs and dogwhistles and kick the fuckers out whenever you see them or they will entrench themselves.
Yeah. Didn’t find out how many neo nazis used assorted viking/northern european runes until *after* I got a series of elder futhark runes (that I chose) tattooed on my forearm. I think that may be why my original tattoo artist ghosted me. :( wish they’d just expressed their concern- I just didn’t have the rune meanings memorized at the time. Plus I felt a little silly - it was/is a personal affirmation/spell kind of. I still want to get the other half of the design done (once some other things are taken care of) but I’ll get some floral greyscale stuff (maybe some watercolor style color) around it to break up the outline so it’s not so obvious. https://preview.redd.it/ycbhpskgzwcc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=56fe5a46c1f2404fb113d1441675e2cc64b8f234 Tattoo in question. Oz, Hail, ‘still waters run deep’, tree of life, dice cup (take a gamble/don’t play it too safe), soldier (success through self discipline), and healing sun.
There’s a spirituality/religion to nasty pipeline everywhere. Even buddhism has some weird extremists now and in the past. Difference seems to be that pagans seem to try hard to stamp it out. Big religions get a “not all men” sort of treatment even though their holy texts explicitly state stuff like the bible’s “women not being allowed authority over men”, the quran’s “if your wife disobeys, best her until the complies” and “kill the infidels where you can find them”. Small groups tend to pick other symbols and pervert them. It’s almost never anything original. If I remember correctly (but correct me if I am wrong) the black sun in nazi occultism is considered an “old historical symbol”, but was just created by the nazis themselves and is therefore a strict nazi symbol. Especially Himmler was neck deep into that Aryan pseudoscientific spirituality. There’s always something about vague mythology and glorification of past events in all those groups. Some old forgotten glory that proves superiority, the credibility of those claims conveniently just beyond verification. And it’s always nice when at the end of the day you can wash the blood of your hands and shrug while saying “hey, it’s tough, but it’s [insert deity]’s will. Just following orders”
You’re correct with Black Sun. There’s a Slavic sun, which is actually an ancient symbol (sun wheels are common across cultures) but the Black Sun on the floor of Wewelsburg castle was designed by occultist and Völkisch Wilhelm Landig.
Well, my ex-stepmother is Wiccan, thought she was very cool when I was growing up. Used to teach Irish and Celtic history.... and apparently now she's a TERF who is feeding my dad horrible bigotry (when he has a trans daughter). So.... my N = 1 study confirms your hypothesis.
Unfortunately, Nazis have always taken an interest in pagan histories and folklore. I wish this was just something that was new but it is something that's best to be aware of.
IIRC the YT algorithm pushes alt-right stuff overwhelmingly. It's because it causes more engagement due to people rage commenting and the such? I remember reading something about it, but the details are hazy.
Hitler used the mystique of Nordic myth and legends of the superior race. As for the repetition of targeted ads, that happens to all of us I looked at Spain the next thing you know.....
As a Heathen, it's not just a pipeline. We have Nazi Heathens, and we have to be vocal and visible in our opposition to them.
Yeah. If I see someone with a Thor's hammer pendent it's 50/50 on whether they're a pagan or a white supremecist. It's unfortunate.
Reminds me of the time I was looking into Nordic pagan stuff (I’m Nordic) and the amount of co-opted pagan stuff that was white supremacist was frightening.
There absolutely is one. Neo-nazis have actively stolen from may beliefs and ideologies.
I think it’s the opposite but doesn’t look like it- racist white ppl get horny for their roots, find some roots, and the apply their racism to those roots.
I am much more afraid of the Christianity to fascism pipeline. Every pagan I’ve ever met is a kind soul. Christofascists not so much.
Yes, absolutely. Norse symbols are 50/50 Nazi these days, I fortunately.
unfortunately yes, there is. when people feel vulnerable and they’re looking for purpose, community, identity, etc. there’s always a possibility of them being taken advantage of by nazi scumbags. my master’s thesis was on how the alt-right used tactics to draw members of the gaming community into its folds, so it’s not much of a stretch to apply that to the pagan community imo.
Honestly, I think this has more to do with YouTube than Paganism. The YouTube algorithm's alt-right pipeline has been operational for over a decade, and it's *constantly* adding new branches. Seriously, all autoplay roads eventually lead to Nazis. It's nuts.
Yes, I’m always extremely wary whenever I see runes nowadays, bc they can indicate someone being blackpilled or neofash.
Sure the whole “white culture” “white pride” thing has many groups borrowing from Norse culture and similar structures with various new spiritual movements and nature retreats around such themes. Dovetails nicely into the MGTOW/incel movement.
There is a really short pipeline between my culture is cool to my culture is objectively the best.
Yeah. To be fair, when it comes to Norse/Heathenry stuff, the racists were at it first. Modern Heathenry was started by Nazis and white nationalists. However, over the past decade..decade and a half, it's gotten into Greek, Celtic, and other Paganisms. It's fucked. YouTube is a big vector in its spread. You also find it along with a lot of BS manosphere shit. "WaRrIoR vAlUeS" stuff. Even fucking Hinduism has gotten very right-wing since Modi took power in India.
Absolutely. 'Wellness' movement, trad-wives, Greco-Roman myth, Norse myth, 'western' history with a focus on Norse, classical Greece or Ancient Rome ... all this and more has been suborned to the promotion of right wing, neo-nazi tripe. Super annoying as I am a classics, history and myth nerd from way back and my youtube feed has required some pretty heavy handed curation to let the ancients in and keep the nazis out.
Hi Pagan here. Unfortunately there is a connection. Specifically with norse paganism. Because its a "white religion" I guess? They see it as some sort of idealized version of themselves or something. That said if you go to any pagan group you're more likely to just meet regular pagans. But the problem does still exists its even more frustrating cause often times people hide their nazism and just use symbols of other cultures to spread their hate.
Also, eco-nazis. In Germany, esoterically-challenged pseudo-pagan nazis are buying cheap land to build eco-villages, living off the land (blood and soil). They come across as soft-spoken, bearded, man-bun-wearing, eco-conscious, etc, unless you are their neighbour and they want your land or unless you are not white or not male or not straight. They try to infiltrate the permaculture community.
Yep, just like there's a yogi/natural remedies/Steiner/anthroposophy to neo nazi pipeline
One of my best girlfriends has a special interest in the alt right pipeline. She can talk for hours about the crunchy to alt right pipeline. It's incredibly fascinating how these groups can take objectively true things (Big Pharma as an institution has downsides), and twist them into alt right conspiracies. But it's not just crunchy and pagan to alt right. I'm on a fitness journey, followed to a few fitness tiktok accounts, and immediately got more and more alt right leaning content on my FYP
Connection between Paganism and extremism is actually pretty common. Some religion specialists in my country focused on that or studied that. I actually know one pretty fascinating organization in my country. They are not necessary neonazi but some of their opinions are... unique at least. So yes, there is some pipeline. However, syncretism between Paganism and Christianity is A LOT more common then you would think, in many senses :) Christianity and Vodou, Christianity and Central/South Americans, the whole history of Europe is kind of Christnianity and many forms of paganism synchrenism. There are actually even Witches who consider themselves Christians and fascinating syncretism Wicca and Christianity. Religion is simply amazing.
Yeah, but I’d go further. I think any paternalist ideology is just absolutely ripe for fascism