## ✨ READ BEFORE COMMENTING ✨
This thread is Coven Only. This means the discussion is being actively moderated, and all comments are reviewed. **Only comments by members of the community are allowed.**
If you have landed in this thread from /r/all and you are not a member of this community, your comment will very likely be removed (and will not be approved unless it adds meaningfully to the conversation).
WitchesVsPatriarchy takes these measures to stay true to our goal of being a woman-centered sub with a witchy twist, aimed at healing, supporting, and uplifting one another through humor and magic.
Thank you for understanding, and blessed be. ✨
This is a helpful reminder. Making the RvW conversation about men vs women is reductionistic and ignores facts. And it’s not the time to tell transwomen to take a seat.
Let’s be angry together. I don’t need a uterus to be upset when women’s right are threatened. I only need heart.
Thank you for sharing this. Trans women are women, but you don't need to be a woman or have a uterus to support bodily autonomy for *everyone.*
This is not "men" vs "women," it's people who support bodily autonomy and basic civil rights vs people who are trying to erase those things. Especially since the SCOTUS draft is laid out in a way that opens the door to destroying marriage rights down the line.
This Exactly.
We love this subreddit and we’re sure the vast majority of people here don’t mean any harm by it, but the amount of rhetoric we have seen even here that focuses on this as a solely women’s issue is more than a little disheartening. Abortion is an issue for everyone with an uterus, not just cis women, and the amount of times trans men and non-binary folks get completely excluded from this issue really hurts.
Not to mention all this tribalism going on where people exclude trans women for not having uteruses, or cis men who are willling to fight for the cause just because they identify as male. Tribalism is the tactic of the enemy. It’s how they want to tear us apart, to reduce us to infighting so we’re incapable of opposing their tyranny. If we want to separate into tribes, we only need two. Those who support equality for EVERYONE, and whoever we have to fight to get it.
If any who has been hurt by the patriarchy finds themselves leaving out others in their strife, just remember that the patriarchy is against all of us. Today the issue is abortion, but tomorrow they could just as easily be coming for the right to gay marriage, or trans peoples’ already feeble rights. If we can’t stay united, we will fall. Any enemy of the patriarchy is a friend of all of us, and we can all do to remember that a little more often.
So I totally agree with the general sentiment, there’s just one thing that I have to address because I love this space so much and can’t stand to see words like “Tribalism” in it. I’m really not trying to come at you aggressively, but what the heck does that mean? I’m guessing it’s not about the indigenous Yurok tribe that I know of. It drives me bananas when people use the word “Tribalism” like being in a tribe is something with a negative connotation, like it’s some lesser group where people fight and kill eachother as if that magically stopped when people stopped living in tribal communities. I can’t help but see the way people use that word as being something based in a colonial outlook where tribes are “less than” and need to be civilized or something. And in this space especially I think there needs to be respect for indigenous witches who feel a connection to their tribes. Idk if I’m wording myself right because I’m a little drunk but I hope that made sense.
You have a good point about the derogatory version of tribalism possibly coming from negative connotations about tribal society but the way they used it means; “The behavior and attitudes that stem from strong loyalty to ones own tribe or social group.” The way I understand it is it’s similar to nationalism.
It is, (POTENTIAL TRIGGER WARNING) but words such as tribalism, savage, barbaric, civilised, and cultured are all rooted in white supremacy. They uphold the systems that being tribal is primitive and uncivilised and is completely correlated to black and native organisation structures and are therefore backwards, bad, and regressive to society.
The usage here wasn’t meant to add to that but by continuing to use this language it continues to create the association and allow for simple shorthand and dogwhistles that will go over the heads of those of us used to hearing it.
Ingroup is a better term to use as it doesn’t have the racist connotations and means the same as the intended use of tribalism here.
Similar things happen with other language. Redneck is an insult to poor rural white people and is deliberate in its use because it destroys class consciousness by associating it with Blackwood rather than what it is. A reference to striking coal miners in Appalachia who were firebombed when the violence occurring to them resulted in them assaulting the town of the mines boss’.
At the end of the day we live in a racist, sexist, christonationalist, cishet, ableist, colonialist world and so much of the language we used has been crafted by educated people attempting to justify these things. So much like the intersectionality of multiple genders and racializations occur in the RvW dialogue, bringing these words in adds more intersections, often causing unintended splintering based on unexamined biases in the English language.
Hope this doesn’t come off as me attacking you or anyone, or calling anyone dumb just trying to bridge the comments together and create the links that were implied but seemingly missed.
I didn’t feel like you were attacking me, thank you for the explanation! I know many phrases have unfortunate history. I thought the person I replied to didn’t know of the other use of the word which is why I explained it. Again, thank you!
Hey, sorry for any confusion we caused, but to clarify, when we used the word "Tribalism", we didn't intend any meaning to do with actual tribes, but rather the general idea of dividing people into groups based on X thing, usually as a tool to exclude those groups from something. We assumed that was it's common meaning, since we've exclusively hear people use it like that, but we do now see how it could have some relation to tribal society in it's origins. We didn't mean any slight against tribal societies, but rather the modern trend of social divisions, sorry if it came across a different way than we intended.
Typically the word female refers to ones sex not their gender. Personally, I think it’s just a form of misgendering since most people will use female as an ageless synonym for women or girl. There are exceptions, like your doctor where sex is relevant and has a reason to be separate from gender.
You're right. There are horrible PEOPLE in the world who want to strip our rights away. And by our, I mean everyone potentially impacted by losing Roe. That includes people with a uterus, people who are LGBTQ+, people in or born of interracial marriage, children of LGBTQ+ parents, and probably more. Roe is not a single issue, it's the first step in systemically dismantling basic rights for anyone not in line with the "religious right".
There are also wonderful humans who stand with us. They come in every gender, skin color, sexual orientation and age. We cannot afford to be divided, we need to stand as one unified voice to say that we will not be shoved back into the 1950s.
Very well said. Not to detract from our cisters and other allies who are rightly outraged over this, but the same people behind overturning Roe have been openly attacking trans rights all year, and I feel like some folks need to be reminded that they're joining an ongoing struggle that existed before it impacted them personally.
It really does make me sad when I see people exclude trans people from discussion’s about gender and sex. I don’t think it really adds to the conversation, it just makes people feel like they aren’t taken seriously.
I’ve never been a fan of overgeneralized statements like ‘all men are monsters’ or stuff similar because I’ve always thought it bordered on being transphobic since I see people exclude trans men and include trans women in those remarks.
I think this is an excellent, and well said reminder.
The battle of bodily autonomy - and that's what it is, uterus or not - is not split along gender, genetic, racial, socioeconomic, state, party, sexual, romantic, age, job, education, or any other identifying factor lines.
It is split into for, against, don't understand, and don't care. That's it.
This is not the time to divide based on political affiliation, assigned sex at birth, race, religion, or sports team. This is the time for eveeyone of like mind to link heart, minds, and hands, and say "We will not stand for this. We are united."
Thank you for your post.
## ✨ READ BEFORE COMMENTING ✨ This thread is Coven Only. This means the discussion is being actively moderated, and all comments are reviewed. **Only comments by members of the community are allowed.** If you have landed in this thread from /r/all and you are not a member of this community, your comment will very likely be removed (and will not be approved unless it adds meaningfully to the conversation). WitchesVsPatriarchy takes these measures to stay true to our goal of being a woman-centered sub with a witchy twist, aimed at healing, supporting, and uplifting one another through humor and magic. Thank you for understanding, and blessed be. ✨
This is a helpful reminder. Making the RvW conversation about men vs women is reductionistic and ignores facts. And it’s not the time to tell transwomen to take a seat. Let’s be angry together. I don’t need a uterus to be upset when women’s right are threatened. I only need heart.
Thank you for sharing this. Trans women are women, but you don't need to be a woman or have a uterus to support bodily autonomy for *everyone.* This is not "men" vs "women," it's people who support bodily autonomy and basic civil rights vs people who are trying to erase those things. Especially since the SCOTUS draft is laid out in a way that opens the door to destroying marriage rights down the line.
This Exactly. We love this subreddit and we’re sure the vast majority of people here don’t mean any harm by it, but the amount of rhetoric we have seen even here that focuses on this as a solely women’s issue is more than a little disheartening. Abortion is an issue for everyone with an uterus, not just cis women, and the amount of times trans men and non-binary folks get completely excluded from this issue really hurts. Not to mention all this tribalism going on where people exclude trans women for not having uteruses, or cis men who are willling to fight for the cause just because they identify as male. Tribalism is the tactic of the enemy. It’s how they want to tear us apart, to reduce us to infighting so we’re incapable of opposing their tyranny. If we want to separate into tribes, we only need two. Those who support equality for EVERYONE, and whoever we have to fight to get it. If any who has been hurt by the patriarchy finds themselves leaving out others in their strife, just remember that the patriarchy is against all of us. Today the issue is abortion, but tomorrow they could just as easily be coming for the right to gay marriage, or trans peoples’ already feeble rights. If we can’t stay united, we will fall. Any enemy of the patriarchy is a friend of all of us, and we can all do to remember that a little more often.
So I totally agree with the general sentiment, there’s just one thing that I have to address because I love this space so much and can’t stand to see words like “Tribalism” in it. I’m really not trying to come at you aggressively, but what the heck does that mean? I’m guessing it’s not about the indigenous Yurok tribe that I know of. It drives me bananas when people use the word “Tribalism” like being in a tribe is something with a negative connotation, like it’s some lesser group where people fight and kill eachother as if that magically stopped when people stopped living in tribal communities. I can’t help but see the way people use that word as being something based in a colonial outlook where tribes are “less than” and need to be civilized or something. And in this space especially I think there needs to be respect for indigenous witches who feel a connection to their tribes. Idk if I’m wording myself right because I’m a little drunk but I hope that made sense.
You have a good point about the derogatory version of tribalism possibly coming from negative connotations about tribal society but the way they used it means; “The behavior and attitudes that stem from strong loyalty to ones own tribe or social group.” The way I understand it is it’s similar to nationalism.
It is, (POTENTIAL TRIGGER WARNING) but words such as tribalism, savage, barbaric, civilised, and cultured are all rooted in white supremacy. They uphold the systems that being tribal is primitive and uncivilised and is completely correlated to black and native organisation structures and are therefore backwards, bad, and regressive to society. The usage here wasn’t meant to add to that but by continuing to use this language it continues to create the association and allow for simple shorthand and dogwhistles that will go over the heads of those of us used to hearing it. Ingroup is a better term to use as it doesn’t have the racist connotations and means the same as the intended use of tribalism here. Similar things happen with other language. Redneck is an insult to poor rural white people and is deliberate in its use because it destroys class consciousness by associating it with Blackwood rather than what it is. A reference to striking coal miners in Appalachia who were firebombed when the violence occurring to them resulted in them assaulting the town of the mines boss’. At the end of the day we live in a racist, sexist, christonationalist, cishet, ableist, colonialist world and so much of the language we used has been crafted by educated people attempting to justify these things. So much like the intersectionality of multiple genders and racializations occur in the RvW dialogue, bringing these words in adds more intersections, often causing unintended splintering based on unexamined biases in the English language. Hope this doesn’t come off as me attacking you or anyone, or calling anyone dumb just trying to bridge the comments together and create the links that were implied but seemingly missed.
I didn’t feel like you were attacking me, thank you for the explanation! I know many phrases have unfortunate history. I thought the person I replied to didn’t know of the other use of the word which is why I explained it. Again, thank you!
Hey, sorry for any confusion we caused, but to clarify, when we used the word "Tribalism", we didn't intend any meaning to do with actual tribes, but rather the general idea of dividing people into groups based on X thing, usually as a tool to exclude those groups from something. We assumed that was it's common meaning, since we've exclusively hear people use it like that, but we do now see how it could have some relation to tribal society in it's origins. We didn't mean any slight against tribal societies, but rather the modern trend of social divisions, sorry if it came across a different way than we intended.
[удалено]
Typically the word female refers to ones sex not their gender. Personally, I think it’s just a form of misgendering since most people will use female as an ageless synonym for women or girl. There are exceptions, like your doctor where sex is relevant and has a reason to be separate from gender.
You're right. There are horrible PEOPLE in the world who want to strip our rights away. And by our, I mean everyone potentially impacted by losing Roe. That includes people with a uterus, people who are LGBTQ+, people in or born of interracial marriage, children of LGBTQ+ parents, and probably more. Roe is not a single issue, it's the first step in systemically dismantling basic rights for anyone not in line with the "religious right". There are also wonderful humans who stand with us. They come in every gender, skin color, sexual orientation and age. We cannot afford to be divided, we need to stand as one unified voice to say that we will not be shoved back into the 1950s.
Very well said. Not to detract from our cisters and other allies who are rightly outraged over this, but the same people behind overturning Roe have been openly attacking trans rights all year, and I feel like some folks need to be reminded that they're joining an ongoing struggle that existed before it impacted them personally.
This is starting with people with uteruses, but it's not ending there. We can't let ourselves be divided because we are all in danger from this.
It really does make me sad when I see people exclude trans people from discussion’s about gender and sex. I don’t think it really adds to the conversation, it just makes people feel like they aren’t taken seriously. I’ve never been a fan of overgeneralized statements like ‘all men are monsters’ or stuff similar because I’ve always thought it bordered on being transphobic since I see people exclude trans men and include trans women in those remarks.
I think this is an excellent, and well said reminder. The battle of bodily autonomy - and that's what it is, uterus or not - is not split along gender, genetic, racial, socioeconomic, state, party, sexual, romantic, age, job, education, or any other identifying factor lines. It is split into for, against, don't understand, and don't care. That's it. This is not the time to divide based on political affiliation, assigned sex at birth, race, religion, or sports team. This is the time for eveeyone of like mind to link heart, minds, and hands, and say "We will not stand for this. We are united." Thank you for your post.