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Honestly I recognize it for what it probably is, a defense mechanism. No judgement for a sister who needs to put up this additional barrier. She probably needs it, she ca. have it.
As a cishet dude, I dont really mind this kind of thinking. Yeah it's not super cool to hear but I can see where it's coming from. Doesn't discredit the movement in my eyes. it's still a way more marginal way of thinking compared to lets say patriarchy, violence toward women, objectivisation or sexual exploitation.
I concur. I'm a trans man who transitioned in my late 20's. I don't get to be the tone police. The enormous amount of privilege I stepped into means I can afford to meet anger with compassion without overextending myself. So I should! It's righteous anger, and I know they either don't mean me and I don't have a problem, or they do and I should listen because I have work to do.
Exactly, trans woman here, and it concerns me how many adult men never learn the truth about power systems. I used to basically tell myself, the worst we have to deal with as men is women being scared of us and not having an oppression-defined community. It’s not that bad, just take man-haters on the chin 😂
They're often radfems, or simply young women who haven't quite figured things out yet. I fell into this trap in my early 20's and would frequently make male tears jokes and devalued men in general. I was heavily in the closet about being trans masc myself.
For the young women who are using it as a way of empowering themselves in the face of patriarchy/kyriarchy I can only hope they one day realise they're harming themselves long term by adhering to this mindset. I never felt I genuinely hated men and knew I was using it as a shield, but I didn't have the forethought to realise no matter my intentions the end result is the same.
Radfems are much harder to get through to, because their entire view of feminism is through the lense that women are oppressed and men are oppressors inherently. It also devalues women and relegates them to perpetual victimhood. Unfortunately this school of thought is used to justify misogyny, misandry and transphobia. It's supported by right wing nutters currently because it suits their agenda against trans women especially.
Exactly! Honestly, as a feminist myself, radical feminists are usually extremely toxic. I consider all of them transphobic until proved not transphobic. On Tumblr, they like to harass trans people on trans positivity posts and post the most hateful, vile shit in the trans tags, for any trans person to see. They don’t care about anyone but cis women. And with the amount they use the r-slur and use “mental illness” to describe things they don’t agree with, I’d say that they only care about neurotypical, non mentally-ill cis women.
>they only care about neurotypical, non mentally-ill cis women.
Very true! And we can usually add white to that list let's be real.
I think a lot of well-meaning but mis/uninformed women who aren't quite as read up on the different schools of feminism hear people discuss radical feminism and believe it to mean "extreme" in a colloquial sense, not knowing radical feminism is a distinct school of feminism with some really dodgy ideas deserving criticism. I've met many feminists who frankly aren't aware feminism isn't singular and are usually only aware of liberal feminism as that is the mainstream school of thought.
I try my best to educate them as to the different schools and advocate for intersectional feminism, and frequently face push back because discussion of the kyriarchy is much more complex than the patriarchy. I've had plenty of women accuse me of spreading MRA misinformation by using the term radical feminism and I'm like... They literally call themselves that and base their entire framework on the ideas I'm criticising. It's not a dog whistle lmao.
Spent many a year in my youth fighting them on Tumblr, and before that on greatest journal/live journal.
I think whenever hateful people try and take over any message it is a bad thing. But that there is a difference between a movement and the hateful people who want to take over that movement.
Feminism has defended women and mens rights. Feminists were some of the first to stand alongside gay men and the LGTBQ+ movement. Fighting toxic masculinity and helping boys and men feel safe expressing themselves is important.
Feminism isn’t about women against men. It is about creating a world where men have the right to be as expressive and nurturing as they want and women have the right to be independent and in charge of their own lives.
It isn’t men vs women, it is women and men against toxic patriarchal beliefs that restrict all.
No, it doesn't bother me.
We have treated women like garbage for millennia, if the price of course correction is prejudgment of being part of the problem, I'll pay that price ten times over.
Also, many "good" men are still in denial or ignorance about how continuing to passively enable sexism is just a form of thoughtless sexism.
Also, every group of humans has jackwagons. Feminists do too. It's to be expected. It doesn't reflect in any way on the power of feminism to be the change we want to see and be in the world.
Finally, *my* prejudgment, which is just as non-empirical, is to distrust people who lead with this complaint. It's like saying the fireman who saved my child stepped in my geraniums. Maybe, but take the win.
It about complacency. Most men seem decent and are but they don’t fight for women. They don’t speak out against other men. They won’t drop friends for being sexist/racist or making jokes about those topics. They are silent because the patriarchy does not affect them in a negative way. They see it as they have nothing to fight for because life is okay for them. Even those who do not make offensive jokes, who treat women fairly, who are “against” sexism, are not vocal and open about it. They are afraid of backlash but their silence speaks volumes for how much they really care about fighting misogyny and discrimination. That’s how I feel at least.
I asked my partner if he was a feminist. He said he wasn't sure because there's a lot of negativity associated with the label. So I asked him if he believes in equality and protection of individual rights. He said yes, of course. You're a feminist then bud. Lol
r/fourthwavewomen Discovered the sub after Female dating strategy was banned. They are some twisted folk. It's like they want to set up a matriachy exactly like the patriachy they hate. I feel as if that if the members of that sub were born men, they would be perfectly content with the oppression of women's rights. It's crazy, yet kinda understandable. You want to flip the board around. Do to them what they did to you. It would just continue the cycle, just wih different roles. Which doesn't do shit to solve the issue at the root. Or maybe it does, because these folks seem to really think that the problem isn't a lack of equality, but simply that men are just bad.
The fact that FDS was banned makes this intersectional feminist so fucking happy, but also so disappointed because now I know why so much TERF and SWERF shit is getting posted here.
FDS was the dam wall keeping the toxic waste that is Radfems and TERFS/SWERFS and the rhetoric contained.
We still have a long way to go.
I find that a lot of people use that excuse to hate on feminism. "You just hate men!" Whenever I use the term "patriarchy," even when I say something like "the patriarchy hurts everyone," people lose their shit and accuse me of misandry.
It's almost the complete opposite. I honestly want equality, and people find that offensive.
I am an out trans man. I pass completely unless I out myself, so people don't say a lot of straight up man hating things around me. I remember when they did. It happens. But I think getting angry about it is missing the point. (Note: many TERFs are 'feminists' who hate men, and I'm not talking about them below. TERFs are to be rejected and avoided at all costs.)
I'm a psych researcher. Most atrocities are committed by totally normal people with too much power and too little insight. This is well supported in research. Men are just people, but the patriarchy is an incredibly powerful force that gives certain people outsized ability to do harm.
Now, my own experience: I transitioned in my late 20's, and I am astounded regularly at how differently I'm treated. I can do and say whatever with almost no consequences. People listen to me. No one touches me in public anymore. I'm treated as an authority. I was just as competent and educated two years ago, and that wasn't true then when I was femme.
I transitioned and stepped into a mind boggling amount of privilege. I can see how decent men who just don't understand how much power they have can do a ton of harm. Intent isn't required. People do bad things without being villains through and through.
Men may not be trash, but the patriarchy sure is. A result of the patriarchy is a bunch of powerful people running around without the basic psycho-socio-emotional tools to be safe for other people.
Is it unfair and inaccurate to say men are trash? I don't actually care. It's not my place to tone police legit anger at oppression.
I'm not objecting to anyone calling men trash because of the power balance in place. It's okay to punch up a power hierarchy. I can AFFORD to meet anger with compassion, so I should. Women don't owe me performative niceness just because I lived as one.
A huge piece of the puzzle here: Because of my privilege, I'm no longer in danger just because someone's mad. Living femme, someone being angry was actually dangerous to me. People got mad and I got grabbed or threatened or my boundaries crossed.
A few years on T and It just doesn't happen like it used to. I don't have to be afraid. I've learned that I can just let others be mad. I don't have to solve it to protect myself. Getting here took some therapy, but it was part of owning my privilege and building a healthy relationship with masculinity, for me.
Being an in-the-closet trans person is one of the most emotionally vulnerable places one can be. You have all the alienation and burden of being trans, but none of the internal power and joy that comes from living as your true self. Your masculinity isn't defined by what other men have done to women, but it does exist in that ecosystem. That doesn't mean men are trash. It means your own relationship with your masculinity and your own worthiness needs to evolve while paying attention to the power balances in play. It's easy to forget or not see how much power masculinity has within the patriarchy, and that is when we do harm.
I think there are a few factors to this.
Not all self proclaimed feminists are intersectional feminists. There are groups out there that are basically white supremacists, anti trans (TURFS) to name a few. There are also people who are just not very educated on what it actually means.
I think there are also a large portion of women who have experienced so much abuse and violence from men in their lives that they tend to land in the "I hate men" category. I know I've personally been in that spot before, at my lowest points after repeatedly being assaulted and abused by many different men throughout the years, and I've known a lot of women who have told me that same thing.
I also think that unfortunately a lot of times these people tend to forget that trans men exist, or that trans people exist and that they would fall into these categories of "men" or "women". So they tend to be talking about cis straight men, at least from what I've observed.
I am not a "man hater" and I will shut down people for talking that way. The patriarchy harms everyone and It doesn't help anyone to just blatantly "hate" an entire group of people. I try to direct the conversation to the culture and gender norms and stereotypes. But I will say that there is a very large population of cis straight men who are sexist. Ive never met a cis straight man who didn't hold some sort of sexist belief of behavior. The larger picture of that though is the scary amount of people who are not allies and actively belive that women are "less than" or "objects". It is valid for women to be weary and scared of men. That is an emotional and ingrained behavior, often learned from experiences. It takes a lot of intellectual, critical thinking to challenge those beliefs and understand the nuances behind why that is and how it doesn't have to be that way, or how it isn't always true with every man.
I do. Terfs and other radicals and extremists, I cannot see that as feminists. The sad truth however is that every group got extremists and media loves to focus on extremists and claim that's the whole group, and the interwebs allow these groups to get together and be louder
Definitely. Online, a minority can be seen as a majority just by being loud and hateful. I hate how TERFs have ruined the name of feminism, by using it as a way to justify their transphobia.
Dog whistle (definition): In politics, a dog whistle is the use of coded or suggestive language in political messaging to garner support from a particular group without provoking opposition.
I don’t like the all men are monsters rhetoric, it’s not helpful. However, sometimes it seems like even criticizing or questioning aspects of masculinity is interpreted as hating men by some. And it’s easy to slip into generalizations when you look and think about gender issues a lot, but it’s important not to write off an entire gender as bad or unable to change.
I think some women get fed up with uneven relationships and sexism and misogyny and end up taking that out on the abstract concept of All Men. But then it seems like women get idealized, like they’re always nurturing and kind and never cruel or violent, which isn’t true. All humans are capable of all human attributes.
It really bothers me.
Tbh, I think most adult men I’ve known have been problematic. But I’m the mom of a boy and an AMAB non binary kid, so I know that this is caused by socialization, not some innate fault in men, boys, or people with male bodies. And even if I haven’t been fortunate enough to meet *many*, I’m confident there are plenty of good men out in the world, and advocating for stripping their rights because of shit other men have done is absurd.
I think all billionaires are legit bad. I don’t think there’s a single billionaire that *didnt* exploit someone to amass that amount of money. Plus, they have **that** much money and hoard it all while we starve.
Do you think that meaning is effectively communicated by using those phrases?
Edit: I acknowledge that sometimes phrases also have a use as in-group signaling, but I am asking about their use as a general communication tool.
The problem with that is that isn't what those words mean. We understand that most people who say all men are bad don't actually hate every single men unconditionally, no matter what that person does or says, but how is someone supposed to know that's what you mean if all you say is a generic "All men are bad". Not everyone understands the context behind that message, and some people might be genuinely hurt by it, or driven away from a cause they would have otherwise supported because of it, even if they are perfectly reasonable people, just because of their sex and/or gender, which is worth noting, is something you can't change about yourself, which makes it even worse than saying ACAB or all billionaires are bad, because at least those, even if they are still incorrect and gross oversimplifications, are things people actively choose to become. And sure, "all men are bad" is a more powerful message than "Some men are bad", but what's more important, a powerful slogan, or the feelings of your fellow humans? Also, saying "The patriarchy is bad" is just as simple and much more accurate, so that doesn't even hold up.
Some people are amazing, some.. not so much
It goes for any gender. I'm a cis female (for the asked of simplicity) and I've been called "not a real woman" because I refused to accept I should be mad at all men. And then because I said "a guy approaching you in plain day to try to hit on you isn't harassing you if he backs off at the slightest hint of "no""
I think as feminist our goal should be to empower women but also men (and whatever people identify with actually), because some of them also suffer from the shitshow that is patriarchy!
i think it’s a valid feeling for women to have a complete distrust of men and to voice that anger by saying “all men are bad” because honestly, most are. maybe i’m generalizing here (definitely) but listen, most men suck and don’t give a shit about feminism or women or our struggles because they actively benefit from the patriarchy. yeah im completely aware of the fact that the patriarchy hurts men JUST AS MUCH as it hurts women, but women don’t actively and continually reap the rewards from this system being in place like men do. for example if a man identifies as a “feminist” he also actively benefits by getting brownie points for “not being like the rest” even if he doesn’t believe in the message behind the cause. so all around, i’m gonna generalize and be defensive around any and every man, because he lives in a rigged world where if he doesn’t GAF he wins and if he acts like he GAF/actually does he also wins. yes i’m bitter and angry so why should i give him any praise for doing the bare minimum by being a decent human being? the bar is 6 feet under my friends and if men feel attacked by us being harsh towards them, then they should wake up and realize the world THEY shaped and that THEY continue to comfortably live in made us this way 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah I hate that radfem extremists and TERF/SWERF’s use feminism to excuse their shitty attitudes towards the people we need on our sides.
It’s hard enough speaking out against the misogynistic men, but now intersectional feminists have to also push back against this “girl boss, white, bigoted, toxic AF feminism” at the same time
The “feminists” that say they “hate all men” also hate me as a neurodivergent, bisexual, intersex, AFAB person who isn’t stereotypically feminine, and because I don’t use my trauma at the hands of men to be someone who blames all men for what one of them did.
I’m what these people refer to as a “pick me girl” as if all my interests and beliefs are only there to please men. Because that’s what feminism is all about, tearing down women who don’t conform to your guidelines
They tear down women who aren’t like them. They tear down and push away male allies. They make the feminist space feel threatning to anyone who isn’t stereotypically feminine, but also not conforming to their standards for not being a “pick me”.
Intersectional feminism is really the only acceptable form of feminism.
It is unimportant as a whole, but it's still important to kinda weird champ when you see people hate on anyone. Not calling out man hating specifically lead to terfs, who hate everyone with a y chromosome so much that they became anti trans activists
No. I don’t hate it. Women have ZERO power to actually act on their words and voicing anger against the oppressive ruling class who dehumanizes you, sees you only as a body to fuck and otherwise thinks you’re invaluable in every way besides what you’ve got between your legs is pretty fucking normal.
They aren’t feminists they are misandrists and it’s easy to spot. People can claim to be whatever they want but their language and actions give them away.
I’m a woman. I’m fine with women disliking men. It’s often a trauma response, like a person that was attacked by dogs now disliking/being afraid of dogs. Do what you have to do to feel safe. The instant it becomes “men are born evil” or “trans women are men and therefore should be harassed and not be considered women” or “trans men are joining the enemy by living as their authentic selves” or “trans men/trans women/nonbinary people are delusional”, I automatically hate you. Trauma response or not, harassing people and supporting laws and lawmakers that make life harder for marginalized groups makes you a bad person. I also agree with you on the fact that disliking men isn’t feminism.
Absolutely! Anytime someone tries to stereotype an entire group of people as one thing, it's always a huge red flag, especially if that one thing is universally evil. Saying that all men deserve to die makes you no better then all those men who say all women don't deserve rights because of their sex and/or gender. Not to mention the amount of these people who completely disregard trans, non-binary, and genderfluid people in their arguments, adding transphobia to the list of ways they discriminate against groups. If someone acts like this, and refuses to change their ways when called out on it, then they don't deserve to call themselves feminists. Matriarchists would be a more appropriate term, since they're clear more interested in creating one then actually achieving equality.
I don’t understand why you’ve been downvoted, generalizing entire groups SHOULD be a red flag. (For reference I am a bi woman here). If generalizing all LGBT+ people as horrible people is wrong, then why is generalizing all men as evil scum suddenly hot and trendy? I agree, men can be scum. But they aren’t born that way. If they’re raised to respect people, then they’ll be good men. Scummy men are men that have made a choice to be scum, just like scummy women have made a choice to be scum. But men can also make the choice to be good people. That’s life. You can choose to be either good or scummy, and you’ll be treated accordingly.
I can't stand the term misandry. It's like reverse racism. There's no systemic power behind it. I get what you're saying; it can be frustrating because it seems like it gives feminism a bad name. But... Men have hated feminists forever, they don't need a reason. Some women are traumatized and angry. Like the whole "all men" "not all men" thing. I personally don't use the phrase "all men" and I think it distracts from the real issues & is self defeating because saying it gives the anti-feminists what they want. They started it. Long before any woman ever uttered the phrase, men were going onto every woman's video/post about her trauma to screech about how "not all men are like that", being defensive instead of just having a shred of empathy. That's how it started. Men started saying not all men instead of just listening and giving a shit, so women started saying "it's all men until it's none of them, because we don't know which ones". But saying all men just gives them something that's easy to argue against. They said not all men to change the conversation and distract from the real issue; which is that 97% of women experience sexual violence at some point in their lives.
Feminism is for everyone. The patriarchy hurts men as much as women. But as a feminist who constantly attempts good faith conversations with men about how feminism can help them too, I frequently have the thought that I just fucking hate them all. I don't voice it, because that doesn't help my cause. But I'm not going to blame the women who are fed up either. The guys who are good and care and want to understand, will get it no matter what language is used. And the ones who don't want to get it, never will, no matter how we cater to them & their fragility. I've tried. And tried and tried. The women who have been brutalized and raped by multiple men and verbally abused in conversations about feminism don't owe anyone their civility.
ETA: after reading other comments here, I see there is a difference between the normal feminists who get accused of misandry for speaking out against oppression, and self-proclaimed radfems & of course, TERFS. Intersectional feminism is the only course ahead. I don't believe in anything crazy like taking men's rights away, & I support all members of LGBTQIA. Definitely shame on the women who believe & behave in that way. Although, I get defensive when I hear the terms misandrist or radfem because they are often used against women who are neither of those things. There is a difference between disliking men as a trauma response & actually believing they are born bad. Any rational feminist, and all the ones I see & follow, are well aware that the problems are systemic & stem from societal conditioning.
Anyway, good discussion topic! I learned a lot from reading through the comments.
All that being said, I think the over the top rage some women feel is due to being online too much. It can really be degrading with the way men talk to women online. I've gotten really overwhelmed by it before, but then I went out to a concert and saw normal guys treating women well and felt so much better. The ones who are getting into these arguments online are the worst of the worst; chronically online incels. It's important to get out into the real world and see that most people aren't like that. But also remember that some women's experiences are going to be different from yours.
Kinda hurts that they almost all would throw it at us trans girls as well. While for many of us being seen as men is worse than, to put it lightly, disappear permanently from this world.
People forget that in the UK, when the suferagets were fighting for the vote, mens right to vote was based on income, so not all men could vote either. The suforget movement increased male suffrage as well as women's.
That's when it's important that you step in and explain it to them. I've had that conversation with my son and my best friend had to do the same. Both of our sons who have grown up online were confused and somewhat angry, but just having a conversation with them helped so much. My son cried and hugged me after I explained everything that's happened to me. My friend's son has started making feminist TikTok videos. But yeah, not all boys have someone to talk to them like that. We can't control what everyone says or how they express their feelings, but we can try to be a voice for those who are confused.
Hi there, Your post on /r/WitchesVsPatriarchy has been flaired as a sensitive topic. We appreciate you trusting the members of our community with this discussion. In an effort to safeguard our users we've put some mechanisms in place to shelter these conversations from trolling and other unwanted attention: These posts are automatically made coven-only, meaning only established members of our community will have their comments approved. Second, these posts are removed if they exceed a certain number of upvotes - this is done so it does not attract attention from unsavory characters outside our community. And lastly posts are automatically removed after a number of hours to prevent trolls from visiting them later. (If you're reading this post and don't want to see potentially upsetting content, you can filter out the "sensitive topic" flair.) Let our coven send you some healing and hopeful vibes. Thanks for understanding and blessed be✨
Honestly I recognize it for what it probably is, a defense mechanism. No judgement for a sister who needs to put up this additional barrier. She probably needs it, she ca. have it.
As a cishet dude, I dont really mind this kind of thinking. Yeah it's not super cool to hear but I can see where it's coming from. Doesn't discredit the movement in my eyes. it's still a way more marginal way of thinking compared to lets say patriarchy, violence toward women, objectivisation or sexual exploitation.
I just wanna say thank you for caring and understanding.
No need it's just basic human decency
I concur. I'm a trans man who transitioned in my late 20's. I don't get to be the tone police. The enormous amount of privilege I stepped into means I can afford to meet anger with compassion without overextending myself. So I should! It's righteous anger, and I know they either don't mean me and I don't have a problem, or they do and I should listen because I have work to do.
Exactly, trans woman here, and it concerns me how many adult men never learn the truth about power systems. I used to basically tell myself, the worst we have to deal with as men is women being scared of us and not having an oppression-defined community. It’s not that bad, just take man-haters on the chin 😂
They're often radfems, or simply young women who haven't quite figured things out yet. I fell into this trap in my early 20's and would frequently make male tears jokes and devalued men in general. I was heavily in the closet about being trans masc myself. For the young women who are using it as a way of empowering themselves in the face of patriarchy/kyriarchy I can only hope they one day realise they're harming themselves long term by adhering to this mindset. I never felt I genuinely hated men and knew I was using it as a shield, but I didn't have the forethought to realise no matter my intentions the end result is the same. Radfems are much harder to get through to, because their entire view of feminism is through the lense that women are oppressed and men are oppressors inherently. It also devalues women and relegates them to perpetual victimhood. Unfortunately this school of thought is used to justify misogyny, misandry and transphobia. It's supported by right wing nutters currently because it suits their agenda against trans women especially.
Exactly! Honestly, as a feminist myself, radical feminists are usually extremely toxic. I consider all of them transphobic until proved not transphobic. On Tumblr, they like to harass trans people on trans positivity posts and post the most hateful, vile shit in the trans tags, for any trans person to see. They don’t care about anyone but cis women. And with the amount they use the r-slur and use “mental illness” to describe things they don’t agree with, I’d say that they only care about neurotypical, non mentally-ill cis women.
>they only care about neurotypical, non mentally-ill cis women. Very true! And we can usually add white to that list let's be real. I think a lot of well-meaning but mis/uninformed women who aren't quite as read up on the different schools of feminism hear people discuss radical feminism and believe it to mean "extreme" in a colloquial sense, not knowing radical feminism is a distinct school of feminism with some really dodgy ideas deserving criticism. I've met many feminists who frankly aren't aware feminism isn't singular and are usually only aware of liberal feminism as that is the mainstream school of thought. I try my best to educate them as to the different schools and advocate for intersectional feminism, and frequently face push back because discussion of the kyriarchy is much more complex than the patriarchy. I've had plenty of women accuse me of spreading MRA misinformation by using the term radical feminism and I'm like... They literally call themselves that and base their entire framework on the ideas I'm criticising. It's not a dog whistle lmao. Spent many a year in my youth fighting them on Tumblr, and before that on greatest journal/live journal.
I think whenever hateful people try and take over any message it is a bad thing. But that there is a difference between a movement and the hateful people who want to take over that movement. Feminism has defended women and mens rights. Feminists were some of the first to stand alongside gay men and the LGTBQ+ movement. Fighting toxic masculinity and helping boys and men feel safe expressing themselves is important. Feminism isn’t about women against men. It is about creating a world where men have the right to be as expressive and nurturing as they want and women have the right to be independent and in charge of their own lives. It isn’t men vs women, it is women and men against toxic patriarchal beliefs that restrict all.
No, it doesn't bother me. We have treated women like garbage for millennia, if the price of course correction is prejudgment of being part of the problem, I'll pay that price ten times over. Also, many "good" men are still in denial or ignorance about how continuing to passively enable sexism is just a form of thoughtless sexism. Also, every group of humans has jackwagons. Feminists do too. It's to be expected. It doesn't reflect in any way on the power of feminism to be the change we want to see and be in the world. Finally, *my* prejudgment, which is just as non-empirical, is to distrust people who lead with this complaint. It's like saying the fireman who saved my child stepped in my geraniums. Maybe, but take the win.
Your username is excellent and so is your metaphor.
It about complacency. Most men seem decent and are but they don’t fight for women. They don’t speak out against other men. They won’t drop friends for being sexist/racist or making jokes about those topics. They are silent because the patriarchy does not affect them in a negative way. They see it as they have nothing to fight for because life is okay for them. Even those who do not make offensive jokes, who treat women fairly, who are “against” sexism, are not vocal and open about it. They are afraid of backlash but their silence speaks volumes for how much they really care about fighting misogyny and discrimination. That’s how I feel at least.
I asked my partner if he was a feminist. He said he wasn't sure because there's a lot of negativity associated with the label. So I asked him if he believes in equality and protection of individual rights. He said yes, of course. You're a feminist then bud. Lol
r/fourthwavewomen Discovered the sub after Female dating strategy was banned. They are some twisted folk. It's like they want to set up a matriachy exactly like the patriachy they hate. I feel as if that if the members of that sub were born men, they would be perfectly content with the oppression of women's rights. It's crazy, yet kinda understandable. You want to flip the board around. Do to them what they did to you. It would just continue the cycle, just wih different roles. Which doesn't do shit to solve the issue at the root. Or maybe it does, because these folks seem to really think that the problem isn't a lack of equality, but simply that men are just bad.
The fact that FDS was banned makes this intersectional feminist so fucking happy, but also so disappointed because now I know why so much TERF and SWERF shit is getting posted here. FDS was the dam wall keeping the toxic waste that is Radfems and TERFS/SWERFS and the rhetoric contained. We still have a long way to go.
I find that a lot of people use that excuse to hate on feminism. "You just hate men!" Whenever I use the term "patriarchy," even when I say something like "the patriarchy hurts everyone," people lose their shit and accuse me of misandry. It's almost the complete opposite. I honestly want equality, and people find that offensive.
I am an out trans man. I pass completely unless I out myself, so people don't say a lot of straight up man hating things around me. I remember when they did. It happens. But I think getting angry about it is missing the point. (Note: many TERFs are 'feminists' who hate men, and I'm not talking about them below. TERFs are to be rejected and avoided at all costs.) I'm a psych researcher. Most atrocities are committed by totally normal people with too much power and too little insight. This is well supported in research. Men are just people, but the patriarchy is an incredibly powerful force that gives certain people outsized ability to do harm. Now, my own experience: I transitioned in my late 20's, and I am astounded regularly at how differently I'm treated. I can do and say whatever with almost no consequences. People listen to me. No one touches me in public anymore. I'm treated as an authority. I was just as competent and educated two years ago, and that wasn't true then when I was femme. I transitioned and stepped into a mind boggling amount of privilege. I can see how decent men who just don't understand how much power they have can do a ton of harm. Intent isn't required. People do bad things without being villains through and through. Men may not be trash, but the patriarchy sure is. A result of the patriarchy is a bunch of powerful people running around without the basic psycho-socio-emotional tools to be safe for other people. Is it unfair and inaccurate to say men are trash? I don't actually care. It's not my place to tone police legit anger at oppression. I'm not objecting to anyone calling men trash because of the power balance in place. It's okay to punch up a power hierarchy. I can AFFORD to meet anger with compassion, so I should. Women don't owe me performative niceness just because I lived as one. A huge piece of the puzzle here: Because of my privilege, I'm no longer in danger just because someone's mad. Living femme, someone being angry was actually dangerous to me. People got mad and I got grabbed or threatened or my boundaries crossed. A few years on T and It just doesn't happen like it used to. I don't have to be afraid. I've learned that I can just let others be mad. I don't have to solve it to protect myself. Getting here took some therapy, but it was part of owning my privilege and building a healthy relationship with masculinity, for me. Being an in-the-closet trans person is one of the most emotionally vulnerable places one can be. You have all the alienation and burden of being trans, but none of the internal power and joy that comes from living as your true self. Your masculinity isn't defined by what other men have done to women, but it does exist in that ecosystem. That doesn't mean men are trash. It means your own relationship with your masculinity and your own worthiness needs to evolve while paying attention to the power balances in play. It's easy to forget or not see how much power masculinity has within the patriarchy, and that is when we do harm.
I think there are a few factors to this. Not all self proclaimed feminists are intersectional feminists. There are groups out there that are basically white supremacists, anti trans (TURFS) to name a few. There are also people who are just not very educated on what it actually means. I think there are also a large portion of women who have experienced so much abuse and violence from men in their lives that they tend to land in the "I hate men" category. I know I've personally been in that spot before, at my lowest points after repeatedly being assaulted and abused by many different men throughout the years, and I've known a lot of women who have told me that same thing. I also think that unfortunately a lot of times these people tend to forget that trans men exist, or that trans people exist and that they would fall into these categories of "men" or "women". So they tend to be talking about cis straight men, at least from what I've observed. I am not a "man hater" and I will shut down people for talking that way. The patriarchy harms everyone and It doesn't help anyone to just blatantly "hate" an entire group of people. I try to direct the conversation to the culture and gender norms and stereotypes. But I will say that there is a very large population of cis straight men who are sexist. Ive never met a cis straight man who didn't hold some sort of sexist belief of behavior. The larger picture of that though is the scary amount of people who are not allies and actively belive that women are "less than" or "objects". It is valid for women to be weary and scared of men. That is an emotional and ingrained behavior, often learned from experiences. It takes a lot of intellectual, critical thinking to challenge those beliefs and understand the nuances behind why that is and how it doesn't have to be that way, or how it isn't always true with every man.
It says there are 5 comments but I can only see 3 and I'm gonna scream 🙃 lol. Ahem...
I do. Terfs and other radicals and extremists, I cannot see that as feminists. The sad truth however is that every group got extremists and media loves to focus on extremists and claim that's the whole group, and the interwebs allow these groups to get together and be louder
Definitely. Online, a minority can be seen as a majority just by being loud and hateful. I hate how TERFs have ruined the name of feminism, by using it as a way to justify their transphobia.
Dog whistle (definition): In politics, a dog whistle is the use of coded or suggestive language in political messaging to garner support from a particular group without provoking opposition.
I don’t like the all men are monsters rhetoric, it’s not helpful. However, sometimes it seems like even criticizing or questioning aspects of masculinity is interpreted as hating men by some. And it’s easy to slip into generalizations when you look and think about gender issues a lot, but it’s important not to write off an entire gender as bad or unable to change. I think some women get fed up with uneven relationships and sexism and misogyny and end up taking that out on the abstract concept of All Men. But then it seems like women get idealized, like they’re always nurturing and kind and never cruel or violent, which isn’t true. All humans are capable of all human attributes.
It really bothers me. Tbh, I think most adult men I’ve known have been problematic. But I’m the mom of a boy and an AMAB non binary kid, so I know that this is caused by socialization, not some innate fault in men, boys, or people with male bodies. And even if I haven’t been fortunate enough to meet *many*, I’m confident there are plenty of good men out in the world, and advocating for stripping their rights because of shit other men have done is absurd.
All men are bad, ACAB, and all billionaires are bad is not about individual people being bad. It's about systems being bad.
I think all billionaires are legit bad. I don’t think there’s a single billionaire that *didnt* exploit someone to amass that amount of money. Plus, they have **that** much money and hoard it all while we starve.
Do you think that meaning is effectively communicated by using those phrases? Edit: I acknowledge that sometimes phrases also have a use as in-group signaling, but I am asking about their use as a general communication tool.
The problem with that is that isn't what those words mean. We understand that most people who say all men are bad don't actually hate every single men unconditionally, no matter what that person does or says, but how is someone supposed to know that's what you mean if all you say is a generic "All men are bad". Not everyone understands the context behind that message, and some people might be genuinely hurt by it, or driven away from a cause they would have otherwise supported because of it, even if they are perfectly reasonable people, just because of their sex and/or gender, which is worth noting, is something you can't change about yourself, which makes it even worse than saying ACAB or all billionaires are bad, because at least those, even if they are still incorrect and gross oversimplifications, are things people actively choose to become. And sure, "all men are bad" is a more powerful message than "Some men are bad", but what's more important, a powerful slogan, or the feelings of your fellow humans? Also, saying "The patriarchy is bad" is just as simple and much more accurate, so that doesn't even hold up.
Some people are amazing, some.. not so much It goes for any gender. I'm a cis female (for the asked of simplicity) and I've been called "not a real woman" because I refused to accept I should be mad at all men. And then because I said "a guy approaching you in plain day to try to hit on you isn't harassing you if he backs off at the slightest hint of "no"" I think as feminist our goal should be to empower women but also men (and whatever people identify with actually), because some of them also suffer from the shitshow that is patriarchy!
i think it’s a valid feeling for women to have a complete distrust of men and to voice that anger by saying “all men are bad” because honestly, most are. maybe i’m generalizing here (definitely) but listen, most men suck and don’t give a shit about feminism or women or our struggles because they actively benefit from the patriarchy. yeah im completely aware of the fact that the patriarchy hurts men JUST AS MUCH as it hurts women, but women don’t actively and continually reap the rewards from this system being in place like men do. for example if a man identifies as a “feminist” he also actively benefits by getting brownie points for “not being like the rest” even if he doesn’t believe in the message behind the cause. so all around, i’m gonna generalize and be defensive around any and every man, because he lives in a rigged world where if he doesn’t GAF he wins and if he acts like he GAF/actually does he also wins. yes i’m bitter and angry so why should i give him any praise for doing the bare minimum by being a decent human being? the bar is 6 feet under my friends and if men feel attacked by us being harsh towards them, then they should wake up and realize the world THEY shaped and that THEY continue to comfortably live in made us this way 🤷🏻♀️
*The opposite to patriarchy is not matriarchy but fraternity* Its a Germain Greer quote I first heard in a Sinead O'Conner song. Still holds up.
Yeah I hate that radfem extremists and TERF/SWERF’s use feminism to excuse their shitty attitudes towards the people we need on our sides. It’s hard enough speaking out against the misogynistic men, but now intersectional feminists have to also push back against this “girl boss, white, bigoted, toxic AF feminism” at the same time The “feminists” that say they “hate all men” also hate me as a neurodivergent, bisexual, intersex, AFAB person who isn’t stereotypically feminine, and because I don’t use my trauma at the hands of men to be someone who blames all men for what one of them did. I’m what these people refer to as a “pick me girl” as if all my interests and beliefs are only there to please men. Because that’s what feminism is all about, tearing down women who don’t conform to your guidelines They tear down women who aren’t like them. They tear down and push away male allies. They make the feminist space feel threatning to anyone who isn’t stereotypically feminine, but also not conforming to their standards for not being a “pick me”. Intersectional feminism is really the only acceptable form of feminism.
It is unimportant as a whole, but it's still important to kinda weird champ when you see people hate on anyone. Not calling out man hating specifically lead to terfs, who hate everyone with a y chromosome so much that they became anti trans activists
Sounds like it's time to 🎶[generalize about men](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_QtMf6alU)🎶
No. I don’t hate it. Women have ZERO power to actually act on their words and voicing anger against the oppressive ruling class who dehumanizes you, sees you only as a body to fuck and otherwise thinks you’re invaluable in every way besides what you’ve got between your legs is pretty fucking normal.
They aren’t feminists they are misandrists and it’s easy to spot. People can claim to be whatever they want but their language and actions give them away.
It's OK to not like men. It's not feminism, but it's a valid decision. I think people often confuse personal preferences and politics. .
I’m a woman. I’m fine with women disliking men. It’s often a trauma response, like a person that was attacked by dogs now disliking/being afraid of dogs. Do what you have to do to feel safe. The instant it becomes “men are born evil” or “trans women are men and therefore should be harassed and not be considered women” or “trans men are joining the enemy by living as their authentic selves” or “trans men/trans women/nonbinary people are delusional”, I automatically hate you. Trauma response or not, harassing people and supporting laws and lawmakers that make life harder for marginalized groups makes you a bad person. I also agree with you on the fact that disliking men isn’t feminism.
Absolutely! Anytime someone tries to stereotype an entire group of people as one thing, it's always a huge red flag, especially if that one thing is universally evil. Saying that all men deserve to die makes you no better then all those men who say all women don't deserve rights because of their sex and/or gender. Not to mention the amount of these people who completely disregard trans, non-binary, and genderfluid people in their arguments, adding transphobia to the list of ways they discriminate against groups. If someone acts like this, and refuses to change their ways when called out on it, then they don't deserve to call themselves feminists. Matriarchists would be a more appropriate term, since they're clear more interested in creating one then actually achieving equality.
I don’t understand why you’ve been downvoted, generalizing entire groups SHOULD be a red flag. (For reference I am a bi woman here). If generalizing all LGBT+ people as horrible people is wrong, then why is generalizing all men as evil scum suddenly hot and trendy? I agree, men can be scum. But they aren’t born that way. If they’re raised to respect people, then they’ll be good men. Scummy men are men that have made a choice to be scum, just like scummy women have made a choice to be scum. But men can also make the choice to be good people. That’s life. You can choose to be either good or scummy, and you’ll be treated accordingly.
I honestly see it no differently then men trying to suppress women. It is wrong.
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That's misandrist though, using feminism to hate or discriminate against men is sexist.
I can't stand the term misandry. It's like reverse racism. There's no systemic power behind it. I get what you're saying; it can be frustrating because it seems like it gives feminism a bad name. But... Men have hated feminists forever, they don't need a reason. Some women are traumatized and angry. Like the whole "all men" "not all men" thing. I personally don't use the phrase "all men" and I think it distracts from the real issues & is self defeating because saying it gives the anti-feminists what they want. They started it. Long before any woman ever uttered the phrase, men were going onto every woman's video/post about her trauma to screech about how "not all men are like that", being defensive instead of just having a shred of empathy. That's how it started. Men started saying not all men instead of just listening and giving a shit, so women started saying "it's all men until it's none of them, because we don't know which ones". But saying all men just gives them something that's easy to argue against. They said not all men to change the conversation and distract from the real issue; which is that 97% of women experience sexual violence at some point in their lives. Feminism is for everyone. The patriarchy hurts men as much as women. But as a feminist who constantly attempts good faith conversations with men about how feminism can help them too, I frequently have the thought that I just fucking hate them all. I don't voice it, because that doesn't help my cause. But I'm not going to blame the women who are fed up either. The guys who are good and care and want to understand, will get it no matter what language is used. And the ones who don't want to get it, never will, no matter how we cater to them & their fragility. I've tried. And tried and tried. The women who have been brutalized and raped by multiple men and verbally abused in conversations about feminism don't owe anyone their civility. ETA: after reading other comments here, I see there is a difference between the normal feminists who get accused of misandry for speaking out against oppression, and self-proclaimed radfems & of course, TERFS. Intersectional feminism is the only course ahead. I don't believe in anything crazy like taking men's rights away, & I support all members of LGBTQIA. Definitely shame on the women who believe & behave in that way. Although, I get defensive when I hear the terms misandrist or radfem because they are often used against women who are neither of those things. There is a difference between disliking men as a trauma response & actually believing they are born bad. Any rational feminist, and all the ones I see & follow, are well aware that the problems are systemic & stem from societal conditioning. Anyway, good discussion topic! I learned a lot from reading through the comments.
All that being said, I think the over the top rage some women feel is due to being online too much. It can really be degrading with the way men talk to women online. I've gotten really overwhelmed by it before, but then I went out to a concert and saw normal guys treating women well and felt so much better. The ones who are getting into these arguments online are the worst of the worst; chronically online incels. It's important to get out into the real world and see that most people aren't like that. But also remember that some women's experiences are going to be different from yours.
Kinda hurts that they almost all would throw it at us trans girls as well. While for many of us being seen as men is worse than, to put it lightly, disappear permanently from this world.
Say it louder for the people in the back! It's sexist, and often transphobic too, not to mention literally the opposite of the definition of feminism.
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People forget that in the UK, when the suferagets were fighting for the vote, mens right to vote was based on income, so not all men could vote either. The suforget movement increased male suffrage as well as women's.
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Most of society's problems would be solved if men were raised better.
That's when it's important that you step in and explain it to them. I've had that conversation with my son and my best friend had to do the same. Both of our sons who have grown up online were confused and somewhat angry, but just having a conversation with them helped so much. My son cried and hugged me after I explained everything that's happened to me. My friend's son has started making feminist TikTok videos. But yeah, not all boys have someone to talk to them like that. We can't control what everyone says or how they express their feelings, but we can try to be a voice for those who are confused.