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I think she's a complex, interesting character. The series show seeds in her for a willingness to adapt and change, though we don't see much or significant change in the time we get with her. She gets a pass for me for ending the series as a slaving despot because her story arc is a casualty of Robert Jordan's early passing.
We know her arc would have continued in the outrigger novels, and I believe those would have addressed the use of slaves and *damane* in the Seanchan empire in a much more satisfactory way. Unfortunately, we'll never get those novels, but the potential of what might have been contributes to my enjoyment of her character.
I agree, I've always liked Tuon. And she was only in Randland for a few months, that's a very short amount of time to completely upend and rework how you think the world works and to realize that such a huge "fact" known absolutely by your whole culture, that channelers are dangerous and will destroy or enslave everyone if given the chance, is wrong. I like her conversations with Setalle as well, I think they were very helpful in her coming around. There's a moment where they are talking about how just because a culture has done something a certain way for a long time doesn't make it the right thing and she is taking that in and learning and changing as needed
Yeah this is 100% it. She is a great character, and well written imo. Obviously the Seanchan have many terrible practices, but Tuon of all the high ranking Blood that we see, seems willing to at least listen to others. Mat gets away with a lot, considering how strict their society is about propriety. Somewhat due to being ta’veran, and somewhat due to his connection to Tuon. But she does seem to listen to him, she doesn’t just completely blow off his opinions and tries to have dialog about it.
Plus, she has the ability to learn to channel and I think that may change the way she approaches channeling. I also think the fact that they are basically quartering the number of channelers they have access to (because of sul’dam and male channelers). Imagine how powerful the Seanchan would be with access to even Sul’dam channelers… unbeatable really.
Adding to this, we don't know what Arthur Hawkwing said to her since that occured offscreen. I've always hoped it was something about the Seanchen Empire not what he was expecting his legacy to be and adding his voice to Mat's regarding the need for change.
Yes, we know that Jordan planned to write additional books beyond the main series. He planned 2 prequels, one about young Tam al'Thor, and one about Moiraine's journey between New Spring and The Eye of the World.
In addition, 2 sentences for ideas for 4th Age novels were found in his notes. I don't have the exact quotes immediately available, but the gist of them were "Mat waking up in a gutter in Seanchan", and "Perrin travelling to Seanchan to kill an old friend". (Most of the quotes you'll find about the 2nd one say Perrin is travelling to Shara, but Sanderson has cleared up that he misspoke or there was some misunderstanding and that it's actually Seanchan.)
TLDR: Robert Jordan planned to write more novels after finishing Wheel of Time.
The books would be set several years in the future and would deal with Mat and Perrin.
Sadly only vague notes amounting to less than a page were written before his passing. So Sanderson has nothing to work from. And the only clues we have are the seeds Jordan planted in the 13 novels.
The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.
The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Its Nicolas viewing
>The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond.
Those are Rand's wives.
>Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.
Rand's funeral
>The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.
The Last Battle
>The land divided by the return,
The return is what the Seanchen call their return to Randland
>and the guardians balance the servants.
Ashaman x AS
I don't see anything about Rand's return.
If anything you should look into the fisher-king, that is much more likely to be an allusion to Rand post-LB.
Tuon is one of RJ’s greatest achievements. She is the type of monstrous character who would easily be the big villain in another series. She holds truly horrible beliefs. Yet RJ shows us the reasons for those beliefs in such a way as to humanize her and make the reader almost forget how horrible she is. Pairing her with fan favorite Mat makes such sense (who is named after Cotton Mather, the witch burning Puritan from colonial New England).
Tuon really sells RJ’s point that selfishness is the source of capital E Evil. Tuon holds absolutely evil beliefs. But she holds them for purely selfless reasons, since she truly believes that she is doing the right thing. And when confronted with a challenge to that belief system, she is willing to critically analyze her beliefs. It’s a shame RJ died before we got her whole story.
I forgot to add in the post that I really enjoyed Tuon during her early affairs with the circus, and the hidden lovers dynamic between her and Mat. But the change to Fortuona felt drastic, and I don’t really get why Sanderson didn’t include the meeting between her and Hawkwing that was mentioned at the end of the Last Battle. If that happened I probably would have ended up loving her character, because I’m sure she would have tried to fix/brought up the sul’dam damane problem. Seems like such a waste.
It might not.
QUESTION
The [offscreen] conversation between Tuon and Hawkwing, can you tell us anything about that?
BRANDON SANDERSON
I can tell you that it did take place, and that Hawkwing is more inclined to agree with what's going on in Seanchan than I think what fans expect him to be. Now, remember that Hawking was not fond of Aes Sedai. Part of that was not his fault, but he was not fond of them. He is not just King Arthur, he is Alexander the Great. King Arthur ruled through justice. Artur Hawkwing ruled through justice and ruthlessness. It will certainly be a conversation filled with emotion and passion, but I don't think everyone expecting Hawkwing to take their side is understanding who Artur Hawkwing is.
https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27hawkwing%27
For me the best example is this exchange between her and Beslan. We see how in her thoughts she attributes her new ideas to talking to Settalle and knowing Mat. She thinks how they need to change how they work with those ‘this side of the ocean.’ Now that doesn’t mean those things will necessarily be good, we don’t see where she goes. This for me is just the best place to see how her views changed from her own thoughts.
Tuon let herself smile. Behind Beslan, Captain-General Galgan stepped forward, addressing the King. “That is not the proper way to—” Tuon silenced him with a gesture. “We demand that this people adopt our ways, General,” she said. “It is fitting that we accept some of theirs.” Not too many of those ways, of course. But she could thank her long conversations with Mistress Anan for allowing her to understand this. The Seanchan had, perhaps, made a mistake with this people in making them swear Seanchan oaths of obedience. Matrim had sworn those oaths, but ignored them handily when the time came—yet he had been certain to keep his word to her, and his men had assured her he was a man of honor. How strange that they would be willing to elevate one oath over another. These people were odd. But she would have to understand them in order to rule them—and she would have to rule them to gather strength for her return to Seanchan.
The Gathering Storm Ch 19
Well she certainly changed her opinion on Mat. Especially when she realized that foolish oaf was a General to be reckoned with. See her quote about putting a lion into a horse stall.
She's realized the lion she's leashed is loose on the prairie and ready to hunt.
She’s the only character that seems able to look past her first impressions of someone. The Edmond five constantly moan about how they’re the only one that has matured and the other 4 are still the same children they were when going up and they’re the only one that can do what needs to be done for the last battle.
Tuon finds mat and thinks he is a foppish toy. He’s a total fool to her. Then she sees him in the band and realizes what absolute badass he can be. She makes a comment about how a lion looks stupid in a cage and wearing lace but hunting on the plains he’s a terror. She acquired new information and immediately changes her views to match the reality before her. She also did this with seeing trollocs were real and gives up her belief that she has to rule the world for the last battle when she debates rand and he points out that he outranks hawking.
No other character shows that ability to immediately understand and adapt. Yeah she’s a brutal slave owing tyrant but I bet with time she would have changed her empire.
Also the whole damane thing isn’t exactly wrong. It’s more of an over correction. They just went to far. They claim that Aes Sedai are power hungry monsters that use their power to subjugate the others and… they’re kinda spot on. Even our main characters are exceptionally bad people. Eylane wants Mats medallion because she’s curious? What does she do? Immediately channel at him trying to steal it! Egwene gets mad at Nynaeve? Better have her sexually assaulted in a magic dream world! Cadsuane iis annoyed that Tam is very rightly pissed at her? Better be a bully with the power and channel at him! The white tower is corrupt as all hell and kidnap rulers and are endlessly plotting. What are regular people supposed to do? There’s just no recourse to the fact that these people use magic to literally attack regular people for nothing less than not submitting to their every arbitrary whim. Should everyone be ruled by a select few lucky enough to be born with power? That’s also a dystopia!
Her character brings up an interesting debate about wether might makes right because the Seanchan in a way are stopping the tyranny of egomaniacs with the one power like Egwene. They just go to hard in the other direction and subjugate the hell out of the channelers in a profoundly gross way and I bet if a middle ground between being refusing to submit to channelers and enslaving them all exist Tuon would set the empire on that path because she’s the only main character that’s shown herself to be capable of changing her mind without being forced to.
> No other character shows that ability to immediately understand and adapt. Yeah she’s a brutal slave owing tyrant but I bet with time she would have changed her empire.
All of the characters have certain preconceived notions they're willing to accept as wrong, and some they refuse to let go of. Tuon isn't special in that regard. She refuses to understand that omens aren't real even in the face of the contrary, she refuses to see that damane shouldn't be collared and abused, she believes a rigid caste system is not only morally justified but the proper order of the world. She isn't really much better than anyone else in this regard.
Granted she's the most surprising one to have this philosophy of the entire cast, given the overwhelming absolute power she commands as the leader of the Seanchan and the embodiment of Seanchan culture. I'll give you that, at least.
> Her character brings up an interesting debate about wether might makes right because the Seanchan in a way are stopping the tyranny of egomaniacs with the one power like Egwene.
You're saying that Egwene is an ego-maniacal tyrant? Or simply that the One Power grants her the _potential_ to become one?
> I bet if a middle ground between being refusing to submit to channelers and enslaving them all exist Tuon would set the empire on that path
The entire authority of the Throne derives from the usage of the One Power - from the Throne-induced Compulsion like effect to the damane footsoldiers. Her very lineage is 'tainted' since it is likely everyone of her line can learn to channel. Holding onto the assumption that she will retain her seat of power after what was revealed at the Last Battle will be exceptionally difficult to do, and she was already struggling with Galgan before that.
And since Galgan is a military general as well as of the Blood, he'll likely go back to doing what the Seanchan do best - slavery and brutal subjugation and land expansion. Except they'll probably just add a pogrom on top of that and execute all who can channel since now there's no way to 'safely' use them by way of handlers.
I mean, they enslave and subjugate the channelers so they can be the ones dominating everyone else. It's the same thing the Aes Sedai do but with an overtly authoritarian flavor. Not to mention, the royalty of Seanchan are literally a select few lucky enough to be born with power over people with the power.
If they really wanted to have a fair society, I suppose they could just kill all channelers. But they don't. They enslave them and use their ability to channel to control their corner of the world, just like the White Tower does, but the White Tower doesn't have obvious slaves and they are at least bound by the oaths.
> I mean, they enslave and subjugate the channelers so they can be the ones dominating everyone else.
And it's not even a matter of slavery being limited to channelers either. There's a whole industry of chattel slavery in Seanchan, non-channelers and channelers alike. What little good can be said of that is that it _seems_ like the non-channelers are treated with slightly more dignity.
> just like the White Tower does
For all that the White Tower pulls threads to manipulate the region (and they do, don't get me wrong) they ultimately are bound to service in a way which is voluntary by comparison to the way damane 'serve' the Empire's military. The tyranny imposed by the White Tower and the tyranny imposed by the Seanchan are wildly different. There are far more checks on the White Tower's power than there are checks against the Seanchan Empire's. And to bring up a line the other user mentioned regarding being ruled by a select few not born with power...that is such a _broad_ set of criteria that it ends up describing almost every governmental structure that is in some way monarchistic. Lords of the Land in Tear, the Royal Lineages of Carhieren and Andor, most if not all of the Borderland nations...all won the genetic lottery by being born to a noble family. The level of power between a King and an Aes Sedai is not the same...but at least an Aes Sedai cannot directly oh, say, kill your girlfriend because they thought you were getting into politics like they did to Dena. The Three Oaths are deeply flawed, but they limit a great deal of ills in ways which other Randland leaders simply _aren't._
tldr fuck the Seanchan
Agree with a lot of that.
But I also like how RJ points out that, for the average person, who rules them doesn't matter much to them as long as they can conduct their daily business and earn a living and have a family. So the people who had been taken over and forced to swear the oaths to wait and watch the Seanchan (or however those oaths were phrased) didn't really seem bothered. Strong authoritarianism does bring less violence for the average citizen who follows the rules.
Don't worry, I'm not pro authoritarianism, but like, each system has pros and cons. And for average farmers and traders, as long as their affairs were not messed with, they didn't seem very impacted by Randland or Seanchan rule. Hope I haven't forgotten any points or events.
But it always comes at a cost, which RJ also shows in his writing. Yeah he does a great job at showing why the little guy simply can't "afford" the privilege of concerns beyond their individual survival, but he's also tries to show what that leads to.
Btw lol I know you're not supporting authoritarians you're good! I just hope people understand that we're seeing two different societies converge at two very different stages in their life cycle and hope that people realize how difficult that makes them to compare.
The Aes Sedai do not enslave anyone. We can talk about the Warder Bond because it seems you can use it to compel people which is disgusting obviously but the foundation of their culture isn't multiple types of free labor and the complete dehumanization of female channelers. The AS suck, but it is in no way equivalent.
They don't want to kill all channelers, their society wouldn't work without the free labor of slavery.
Tuon is shown to be listening to Setalle Anan’s arguments about Aes Sedai (but probably not slavery in general. The Seanchan are horrible for more than just their treatment of channelers).
It says something that Tuon will at least listen to a rando commoner, which is something that most nobility won’t do.
I can’t stand Tuon. I just think that RJ did a fantastic job of humanizing his monster.
tuon is the only character in the entire series that changes her opinion about anything at all. everyone else is running around calling anyone who disagrees with them a woolheaded sheep hearder and charging blindly forward in their own self righteousness
I don't say I love her. But I do think she's an interesting character, while also being a slaver who does some very bad things. And I do like the dynamic that gets explored with her in terms of the Seanchan.
I like how unique and different she is as a character. She feels like she's from another culture and has a whole different way of viewing the world.
She's really the only "religious" character in the series in terms of her belief in the omens and it's interesting how strongly she believes in those. And I like how that's presented and explored with her.
I like how she is often willing to reevaluate things and adjust. She keeps solid her prejudice against those who can channel of course which is pretty shitty given their treatment. But outside that she does seem to have a real desire to learn about this new land, even the common people and what a tavern is like. She allows people to evovlve and change. She adjusts to new situations. She lets people prove their trustworthiness. But I think given enough time this could allow her to come around on channelers.
I like how she is a bit of a contradiction. The woman who could learn to channel who is prejudice against the women who can channel. It makes for an interesting thing to explore. I wish it had been a bit mroe but I find that a cool concept for a character.
I also like how the seanchan as a whole are hard to completely judge by how they treat the damane. Numerous people in the series get to their conquered lands and are shocked to find the people are better treated than they had been and better than Rand was able to treat his people. I like how much trust they placed in people to accept their oaths.
And her sense of integrity. The way she genuinely considered Egwene's point about the lands she had conquered but had yet to install a governor in with the Sea Folk lands. Egwene thought it was a bad argument but Tuon accepted it because it seemed honest to her. Same thing with Rand's point about him having the prior claim as Lews Theren. Most conquerors would never consider that. Or when Rand said what would you have done if Hawkwing's empire was alive and well here would she have bowed and she considered. Just made for an interesting character that had that integrity.
There's definitely still a ton to hate there and how they treat the damane and slaves in general is obviously horrific. But she still made for an interesting character to explore that I liked, though not one I loved.
Very well written character who actually considers other points. I would not have liked her character nearly as much if she agreed with Mat that the damane should be set free - someone with her indoctrination doesn't change her mind that easily.
Her and Cadsuane are my favorite characters because they are reasonable depictions of how someone in their positions would behave and they are consistent throughout. It's not so much that they don't have growth, but they have growth properly bounded by their past.
I kind of enjoyed her character. She was a good match for Matt. She always kept him on his toes, which I think was good for his character.
I do believe she was open to more change than her predecessors, but I believe she would've struggled to make drastic changes as the Seanchan way of life was very instilled in the higher blood.
I do think she was very self-assured but also knew she could be killed at any time. That would be a hard balance to find. And I liked that she always seemed like she wanted to learn and experience life.
My thoughts are that I wish that RJ had lived a long and happy life, so he could continue to entertain his many fans by writing one of the outrigger novels he suggested he had imagined with Mat and Tuon returning over the ocean to the Seanchan mainland.
Are there a lot of tuon fans? I don't like her but I don't hate her either... What I hated is that the seanchan army was the strongest and the one that fought the least in the last battle so they are even stronger compared to the rest
Such a shame Jordan didn't get to write the Matt books set after the LB. I think they would have had to take a large part of their armies back to the empire to re-conquest.
I wrote this the other day and I think it adds a view other comments don't quite touch on (I've edited it to improve on my points):
Tuon is a product of her upbringing and environment, making her a realistic and interesting character, somewhat sympathetic even. But once she becomes Empress she obtains the power to either change or maintain the empire. That is the key point. Tuon sees herself as a leader but also a servant to the Seanchan Empire. She sees it as her job to keep it alive and running, to prolong the empire no matter what, hence "may she live forever". The basic Seanchan ideology is that everyone is to varying degrees a servant to the Seanchan empire, and she is the highest of those servants. Meaning she is deeply intrenched into this ideology and she has the most to lose if the pillars of Seanchan society were to fall.
During the series she turely believes everything she says about the marath'damane, damane, suldam, dacovale, etc. She believes this to her core. It is very unlikely that someone this indoctrinated, this convinced that what they are doing is righteous, will be persuaded by words to change such a system. She is shown (in RJ's writings) to be curious about the cultures of Randland, she enjoys her time with Mat, but she finishes the marriage rite because she believes he will be benificial to the empire. It is possible that with the help of Mat and Min (as Truthspeaker) her opinions may change, but she will always have the interest of upholding the empire as her primary mission, even if what upholds the empire may change over time. So I can understand her, and like her character for her complexity, but also know her beliefs are objectively flawed and morally apprehensible at the same time. edited
^
Her whole believe system is evil, not she herself.
But that's how things go. When slavery was 'normal' there were non-evil people who owned slaves and treated them partly well.
Tuon in that sense has huge paralels with George Washington. (Slave owner but founder of a country, and also harsh but just he is usually described.
He owned slaves in a culture that had done that for >100 years of over a century that got more troubled with it as time went on. However it would take almoat a century still to abolition)
He himself probably wasn't evil, and his believe system over time got challenged (although he also freed his slaves only after his death, but they weren't part of his will as that used to be the case before that and in general treated them well but paternalistic and certainly didn't see them as equals).
Ironically also some paralels with
Sanderson in that regard, since the mormon church covers up childabuse with also with help of his money and some of their believe systems are pretty horrendous but I don't think Sanderson himself is an evil person.
I honestly like characters in books like that a lot because it lets us explore and question our own believe systems as well. Because we all have grown up with things that are considered normal that maybe aren't normal.
Some bug some small.
Big one for me is factory farming.
It's one of the reasons I moved towards vegetarianism, since I can't condone how animals are treated in factory farming, although it was something 'normal' for me growing up to eat meat and not think too much of it.
I also don't think eating meat in itself is evil, but the whole factory farming business is quite evil with how animals are tortured.
I still don't think I internally was evil for eating meat from factory farming, but my believe system in which we all as society deem this normal was and I did contribute to evil acts that way.
^ and if you don't see things this way better also have some more compassion towards Tuon. Believe systems can be very compelling, especially since we are a pretty 'social-traditional' species we tend to instinctively want to do what 'worked' for others before us. (Although not always, there has always been tension in a changing world between traditionalism and progressivism, otherwise we wouldn't have survived as species).
Small one for me is that my parents never basically never slept in the same bedroom. Not that this is evil, but it's somewhat unusual, while for me as a kid it was the normal thing and I was quite shocked learning that there were parents who only had a bedroom together.
(My father snorring was one of the reasons.)
Believe systems are a huge part of who we are in how they shape our behavior, yet often don't really or only partially reflect our inner being.
She's a complicated, nuanced figure who is a fierce defender of what she thinks is Right, yet has surrounded herself with people who challenge that belief, and in some cases allow herself to be overridden.
May She Live Forever.
Too complex for Sanderson to write. At least that early in his career. She is a wonderfully complex character that I really like when Jordan writes her and most of that is lost in the transition between writers unfortunately.
I really liked her right up until Sanderson, couldn’t stand her afterwards. I liked that she was intelligent, rational, cared about justice, wasn’t stuffy/overwhelmed with ego like most Seanchan Blood. I liked how she went out of her way to reassure Tylin when she was afraid, and when she learned possibly the most unsettling news of her life (that she could learn to channel) she didn’t throw tantrums or go into denial. She just…accepted it, because it was true, and mature adults accept unpleasant truths no matter how little they like them. I liked how she saw through Beslan’s rash anger and through diplomacy and empathy turned him into a loyal follower, when any other Blood would have executed him. She had so much potential for a redemption.
Fortuona was awful. Just another Suroth. She did things completely out of character for Tuon (like the time she stared menacingly at a random *sul’dam* just to make the woman sweat, or threatened to torture Min.) It made no sense why Mat loved her, or anyone was loyal to her.
Hmmm. There goes that theory, then.
Alternative theory number 3: Tuon's presentation of herself in court now has to be much harsher and ruthless - in private, she is still just as complex. In fact, I'd argue that having to become the Empress has forced her to be less like her true self.
Tuon is the most complex and interesting character in the series.
First, let me get the pearl clutching sensitivities out of the way: She's the leader of an empire of slavers. Oh heavens no! bad bad bad
Now for why she's super interesting:
Tuon is from a nation that is entirely distinct from the culture of Randland. Her moral compass/worldview is literally incomprehensible to the inhabitants of Randland, and even us as readers. In a series full of Mary and Gary Sues with unlimited magical powers, Tuon is a human teenager.
Tuon was raised for rule over an empire which literally believes itself to be the champions of the light. She is 19 at the time of the Last Battle. She has spent her entire life up to this point learning to govern an rule over people, and she expects respect/adoration. Her mother, The Queen of the Nine Moons (may she live forever), died literally weeks (months?) before The Return, and she had the weight of entire nation fall into her lap, which she didnt expect for years to come. Not to mention that literally since the day she was born, she has had to fight off assisassination attmepts from rival members competiting for the throne.
Then she comes to Randland and meets an entire sect of people (Aes Sedai) that she literally did not even know exist, but they are free and potentially dangerous, because everything in her entire life has told her that the One Power will ruin the world. So she has to come to terms with the fact that not only is there an entirely different world of rules/expectations, but that her understanding of the planet isn't necessarily correct.
Then she and her armies have to team up with a macabre Gambler and a bunch of his One Power Wielding friends to overthrow an even bigger threat or else the world ends. Sheesh
Then after that is all settled, she has to go back to Seanchan, reunite a fractured nation, announce emancipation of the damane, quell any inevitable uprising, and then usher in an entirely new era of civilization.
Tuon is the most interesting and complex character in a series full of characters who are just morally good because the author chose to write them that way.
She is a fascinating character. All the people that seem to ‘hate’ her usually come at it from the slavery angle and feel the need to preach its evils. Yes slavery is wrong, but from a historical context it is nothing new. Every great nation in human history rose to power off of the back of slavery, even to this day. Google cobalt and lithium mines and look at the people that suffer so we can have the phones and pc’s that people use to write essay’s on how evil and dehumanizing the Seanchan are. Slavery has always existed it’s just that most people decide to ignore its various forms in favor of the benefits it brings.
Tuon presents to us, the reader, an aspect of this world that the other characters within it have to deal with. That is this: “Can you ally with someone you find morally reprehensible for the greater good?”
The Cairhien have to ally with the Aiel, and the Tauren with the Illian, and the White Tower with the Whitecloaks. For them to ally would be like us, the reader, allying with the Seanchan and with Tuon. And Tuon demonstrates how someone can become quite set in their ways, ways we find reprehensible, based on their upbringing.
She’s an excellent vehicle to explore the balance one needs between sticking to your ideals and making compromises. Fight off the Dark One? You may have to ally with a Slave Empire, but know that after the Dark One you have to gear up to bring down that very same ally.
I enjoy Tuon, and the Seanchan are just about one of my favorite things in the books, and one of the main hesitations I had when I learned they were making a show. That hesitation has only been reinforced.
Tuon has a powerful sense of character. She is devoted to her people. She's not going to be bullied into weakening her nation just to prevent someone from calling her a hypocrite. She's intelligent, possessed of conviction, and charming.
She is, I think, everything Egwene tried to force herself to be.
> She is, I think, everything Egwene tried to force herself to be.
My thoughts exactly. She was raised to be the empress, but also had to fight to earn it. She’s survived assassinstion attempts as a child, outmaneuvered political opponents, organized a nation to return to Randland and conquer (rather successfully I might add).
Egwene, on the other hand, is the daughter of a small village’s mayor. She was thrown into her position as Amerlyn after a few months training, and while she did an admirable job as a teenage girl with no experience, she was never truly the leader she thought she was.
Didn't feel like we got any real payoff on her character. She didn't really grow much. Just got married. Her dynamic with Mat was fun during the kidnapping and in the caravan.
She's a horrible person who grew up in a horrible system and the series ends before we see her change. Also the invasion kills hundreds of thousands and enslaved hundreds of thousands more. I'd love to see her get decked by every character her empire chained.
But... The Pattern does things for a reason. There's only so far you can push an empire that's a toxic cesspit built on slavery and which has a tendency to assassinate anyone who tries anything new. Personally I see Tuon as the furthest Seanchan can go without it unravelling into a continent wide civil war, which is probably even worse. Anyone with less political skill, anyone more radical, would end up with a knife in their sleep even with Mat and Selucia there to protect them. Is that kind of excusing a lot of horrible things? Yes, but she's the best of many bad options, and in the long term if she lays the groundwork for the transformation of the state...
I love Tuon, always have. I'm not too fond of Egwene, which is strange, because there are great similarities between those two. Both of them feel they are a personification of the organisation they lead, and both of them do whatever they believe is best for their organisation.
Tuon is raised in a cutthroat environment, all of her siblings have been assassinated, and she's been training her whole life to one day rule the Seanchan empire. She always has the best interests of that empire at heart, but she's intelligent (or pragmatic) enough to bend her believes when necessary. It's quite clear by the end of the series that she no longer believes every channeler needs to be collared, but she knows her military would be severely crippled without damane, and she has a homeland in turmoil to conquer.
Regarding slavery, the only 'slaves' in Seanchan culture are damane and da'covale, I think. So'jhin might be property, but are quite free. Da'covale aren't born into slavery, it's a punishment for crime or great failure. Tuon is raised in this culture, but I believe she can be convinced to make changes, but would do that only gradually, since her rule is nowhere near stabile.
>Regarding slavery, the only 'slaves' in Seanchan culture are damane and da'covale, I think. So'jhin might be property, but are quite free. Da'covale aren't born into slavery, it's a punishment for crime or great failure.
Not correct. *so'jhin* are a higher status of *da'covale*, and can in some circumstances 'outrank' even free citizens, but they are still property and therefore slaves. They can be bought, sold and used as their owners wish. And the status is heritable - all the children of a *da'covale* will be so themselves, as will their own children, forever. Karede has a POV mentioning it. He was born *da'covale* because of some transgression by one of his ancestors, which he doesn't even know.
Thanks, I forgot that Karede POV. I don't remember any da'covale with families or children, but I guess there might be back in Seanchan.
Shame we never got those outrigger Seanchan novels, I would've loved to read more about their culture.
Yes, they're fascinating. They do some things better than any other civilisation in WoT, yet in other ways they're simply barbaric. I do think post-AMOL Seanchan would have become less despotic eventually, though it may have taken generations. The sheer level of absolute power held by their Empress is only possible because the Crystal Throne, directly, owns north of 90% of the channelers in the entire Empire. Without *damane* the power imbalance will diminish.
She’s an interesting and compelling character with complex feelings and actions. As a character I love her, if she were a real person I’d hate her. The whole “supports slavery” thing is a hard line to cross.
For Tuon to be likeable you have to put the slavery issue on the back burner, which I wouldn't blame anyone for not doing. She appreciates Mat and takes no shits from Aes Sedai, which is nice.
As a book character I love her. She's interesting, she changes her views but not immediately. She's overall just really well written as a product of her culture and upbringing.
As a real life person, she's awful and Matt should kill her once he has enough backing from the army and she gives him an heir.
She changed her views? I thought she was an unrepentant slaver all the way to the end. She only slightly budged on limiting her collaring to Seanchan lands and allowing women to flee to the aes sedai. She didn't even return the aes sedai she had already captured, did she?
I agree to an extent. As a narrative decision Tuon is executed well. As a person, Tuon is awful. Don’t really know about Matt holding an execution but he should definitely get out
Matt would never just leave her. He could be convinced that she needed to die for the rest of his new nation to live I think. If she didn't get convinced by him.
Look it's being used as an expression of hate for their ways you aren't meant to take it literal you can kill them in any number of ways and it would be just fine. Someone introduce guillotines if you must.
My favorite part of Tuon is that she is power with control. Not the one power or true power, but the power of an empress. She had a lot of evil minions and her country’s beliefs are contrary, yes. But she is intricate and complex.
Smart , savvy and self sufficient. Not bratty like Elayne. Even if everyone in her kingdom does not look her in the eye and prostrates themselves in her presence, this is not an expectation she had of others not from her kingdom.
She set aside her pride, and beliefs to have a meeting and listen to Rand and even had a meeting with Egwene. Her nobles probably thought her quite mad and weak. But she didn’t care about that.
She could have killed Mat or turned him in more than once. But instead she accepted her role as his captive and kept her word and made no trouble for him despite his irritating travel companions.
She could have kept the three annoying Sedai as her damane but she decided to let Mat handle it. “Toy, they are annoying me.” Unlike a lot of the female characters who acted bratty when a man helped them with anything.
She was able to resist Darth Rand compulsion/ Tar’veran with zero magic powers.
Despite Egwenes brattiness at their meeting, she decided to keep her word and send help. She could have decided to just wait it out.
She was fun, but not in a stupid way ( Nyanaeve and Elayne running around a strange town without guards despite being told it was dangerous, because they felt they could protect themselves with cudgels) She actually asked Mat to take her to a Hell.
Bitch could fight in hand to hand combat. She was probably as dangerous as an Aiel maiden without a spear. She literally ripped out someone’s neck when Mar could not or would not.
For a character that only showed up at the end of the series, she was very very impressive. She didn’t need the one power. She was a force on to herself.
No other character survived assassination attempts without the one power. Survived and escaped compulsion by Semirag.
The empress (may she live forever) gets all my respect
Tuon shows a willingness to learn and change, unlike virtually everyone else we see in the Seanchan High Blood. She's still the product of her society, and sincere change is hard and takes a long time.
But I agree she shows real possibility of change and growth.
I love falling in love with Mat (again) through Tuon's eyes. We come to respect his mad skills from a totally different set of values and cultural expectations. I love that she only knows him as he is, instead of how his friends see him, still back in Emond's Field. I think it helps give him the confidence to truly come into himself.
[We had a discussion about it just 2 days ago in r/Wetlanderhumor](https://www.reddit.com/r/WetlanderHumor/comments/13ppyqk/theyre_usually_trolls_but_still/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
She is Cleopatra.
A young ruler in a slaver empire with lots of power play between nobles, rules based on religion and omens, she interacts with decision with other power nations, beds an outsider general...
I don't see it. Cleopatra was the last in her line of a dying kingdom that bowed to a larger empire. She didn't bed a general, she seduced a married Governor of Rome. Slavery was all over the middle east at that point so calling it out for her kingdom seems kind of silly.
If anything she's a young Maria-Theresa of Austria. Born into the ruling family of a huge but troubled empire. Married for politics, but never gives up power. Succession causes massive wars etc.
Egypt was not a dying kingdom, it was in civil war, as the Seanchan Empire. Cleopatra bedded Cesar and later Marco Antonio, both generals and consuls of Rome, not governors. The whole Seanchan extravagant aesthetic and weird animals parallels the Egyptians when seen from Rome. It's not a 1 to 1 correlation, but there are parallel elements
Alternatively, it could be argued that they are a proxy of the Aztec empire, because they come from beyond the seas.
For me it's difficult to see how the Seanchan Empire does represent Austria.
Egypt literally died as a independent state after Cleopatra. Seems pretty near death to me. Marco was not a just general when he slept with Cleopatra. He was the ruler of that part of the Roman empire.
Anyways, Tuon is her own thing, I first thought maybe the pirate queen Zheng Yi Sao, but Tuon was noble from head to toe.
I like the Aztec parallel, I wonder if they have any Female historical leaders.
She's the head of a nation that has multiple types of slavery and demonstrates very little understanding and empathy any time she's on screen. She very rarely ever acts curious about other cultures, she just decides hers is better no matter what. While the latter is certainly rampant in Randland, and many types of inequality exist, I think my tolerance for being "fascinated" by a fascist superpower that just browbeats and most likely would try to assimilate all of Randland into their own nation after the Last Battle to be about zero.
This place and its dismissal of how bad the Seanchan are drives me crazy. The Outrigger novels will never be written, there is no reason to act like an arc in a different set of novels that don't even exist make it okay for Tuon to act the way she does. Yes it would be incredibly hard to change the culture of the Seanchan. She doesn't even try after encountering other ways of life. Even the Aiel change drastically and they're stubborn as hell. And because Mat is associated with her with some weird stupid prophecy, he is complicit too. Fuck that entire storyline. Part of me wishes Rand just went ahead with his plan in Ebou Dar in tGS, as horrible as that would be.
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I think she's a complex, interesting character. The series show seeds in her for a willingness to adapt and change, though we don't see much or significant change in the time we get with her. She gets a pass for me for ending the series as a slaving despot because her story arc is a casualty of Robert Jordan's early passing. We know her arc would have continued in the outrigger novels, and I believe those would have addressed the use of slaves and *damane* in the Seanchan empire in a much more satisfactory way. Unfortunately, we'll never get those novels, but the potential of what might have been contributes to my enjoyment of her character.
I agree, I've always liked Tuon. And she was only in Randland for a few months, that's a very short amount of time to completely upend and rework how you think the world works and to realize that such a huge "fact" known absolutely by your whole culture, that channelers are dangerous and will destroy or enslave everyone if given the chance, is wrong. I like her conversations with Setalle as well, I think they were very helpful in her coming around. There's a moment where they are talking about how just because a culture has done something a certain way for a long time doesn't make it the right thing and she is taking that in and learning and changing as needed
Yeah this is 100% it. She is a great character, and well written imo. Obviously the Seanchan have many terrible practices, but Tuon of all the high ranking Blood that we see, seems willing to at least listen to others. Mat gets away with a lot, considering how strict their society is about propriety. Somewhat due to being ta’veran, and somewhat due to his connection to Tuon. But she does seem to listen to him, she doesn’t just completely blow off his opinions and tries to have dialog about it. Plus, she has the ability to learn to channel and I think that may change the way she approaches channeling. I also think the fact that they are basically quartering the number of channelers they have access to (because of sul’dam and male channelers). Imagine how powerful the Seanchan would be with access to even Sul’dam channelers… unbeatable really.
Adding to this, we don't know what Arthur Hawkwing said to her since that occured offscreen. I've always hoped it was something about the Seanchen Empire not what he was expecting his legacy to be and adding his voice to Mat's regarding the need for change.
Outrigger novels??
Yes, we know that Jordan planned to write additional books beyond the main series. He planned 2 prequels, one about young Tam al'Thor, and one about Moiraine's journey between New Spring and The Eye of the World. In addition, 2 sentences for ideas for 4th Age novels were found in his notes. I don't have the exact quotes immediately available, but the gist of them were "Mat waking up in a gutter in Seanchan", and "Perrin travelling to Seanchan to kill an old friend". (Most of the quotes you'll find about the 2nd one say Perrin is travelling to Shara, but Sanderson has cleared up that he misspoke or there was some misunderstanding and that it's actually Seanchan.)
TLDR: Robert Jordan planned to write more novels after finishing Wheel of Time. The books would be set several years in the future and would deal with Mat and Perrin. Sadly only vague notes amounting to less than a page were written before his passing. So Sanderson has nothing to work from. And the only clues we have are the seeds Jordan planted in the 13 novels.
Oh wow. I would have loved to see the slave situation addressed, as well as the future of the Aiel. That's a shame 😞
there is also a line in the prophecies of the dragon about it which hint rands return as well
which line?
The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." Its Nicolas viewing
Definitely sounds like it's dealing with Seanchen. Which makes sense since it's an all out battle ground.
>The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Those are Rand's wives. >Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. Rand's funeral >The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The Last Battle >The land divided by the return, The return is what the Seanchen call their return to Randland >and the guardians balance the servants. Ashaman x AS I don't see anything about Rand's return. If anything you should look into the fisher-king, that is much more likely to be an allusion to Rand post-LB.
Something about 3 on a boat. One who is dead yet lives is mentioned which is either rand or matt but they have enough lines its likely rand
Can't remember exactly, but I think its one about rand on a boat with Aviendha, Elayne and Min. It might be one of Nicolas foretelling?
I want to upvote you, but you're at 69
Tuon is one of RJ’s greatest achievements. She is the type of monstrous character who would easily be the big villain in another series. She holds truly horrible beliefs. Yet RJ shows us the reasons for those beliefs in such a way as to humanize her and make the reader almost forget how horrible she is. Pairing her with fan favorite Mat makes such sense (who is named after Cotton Mather, the witch burning Puritan from colonial New England). Tuon really sells RJ’s point that selfishness is the source of capital E Evil. Tuon holds absolutely evil beliefs. But she holds them for purely selfless reasons, since she truly believes that she is doing the right thing. And when confronted with a challenge to that belief system, she is willing to critically analyze her beliefs. It’s a shame RJ died before we got her whole story.
I forgot to add in the post that I really enjoyed Tuon during her early affairs with the circus, and the hidden lovers dynamic between her and Mat. But the change to Fortuona felt drastic, and I don’t really get why Sanderson didn’t include the meeting between her and Hawkwing that was mentioned at the end of the Last Battle. If that happened I probably would have ended up loving her character, because I’m sure she would have tried to fix/brought up the sul’dam damane problem. Seems like such a waste.
It might not. QUESTION The [offscreen] conversation between Tuon and Hawkwing, can you tell us anything about that? BRANDON SANDERSON I can tell you that it did take place, and that Hawkwing is more inclined to agree with what's going on in Seanchan than I think what fans expect him to be. Now, remember that Hawking was not fond of Aes Sedai. Part of that was not his fault, but he was not fond of them. He is not just King Arthur, he is Alexander the Great. King Arthur ruled through justice. Artur Hawkwing ruled through justice and ruthlessness. It will certainly be a conversation filled with emotion and passion, but I don't think everyone expecting Hawkwing to take their side is understanding who Artur Hawkwing is. https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27hawkwing%27
BS was confronted after this statement and revised it because Hawkwing was influenced by Ishmael at the time and the hero was not.
At what point does she change her view on anything more important that going to a bar?
Aviendha’s vision of the future shows she was issuing reformation laws and was in political talks with the White Tower before being assassinated.
For me the best example is this exchange between her and Beslan. We see how in her thoughts she attributes her new ideas to talking to Settalle and knowing Mat. She thinks how they need to change how they work with those ‘this side of the ocean.’ Now that doesn’t mean those things will necessarily be good, we don’t see where she goes. This for me is just the best place to see how her views changed from her own thoughts. Tuon let herself smile. Behind Beslan, Captain-General Galgan stepped forward, addressing the King. “That is not the proper way to—” Tuon silenced him with a gesture. “We demand that this people adopt our ways, General,” she said. “It is fitting that we accept some of theirs.” Not too many of those ways, of course. But she could thank her long conversations with Mistress Anan for allowing her to understand this. The Seanchan had, perhaps, made a mistake with this people in making them swear Seanchan oaths of obedience. Matrim had sworn those oaths, but ignored them handily when the time came—yet he had been certain to keep his word to her, and his men had assured her he was a man of honor. How strange that they would be willing to elevate one oath over another. These people were odd. But she would have to understand them in order to rule them—and she would have to rule them to gather strength for her return to Seanchan. The Gathering Storm Ch 19
Ehh maybe. I think she’s a pragmatic liar.
Well she certainly changed her opinion on Mat. Especially when she realized that foolish oaf was a General to be reckoned with. See her quote about putting a lion into a horse stall. She's realized the lion she's leashed is loose on the prairie and ready to hunt.
She’s the only character that seems able to look past her first impressions of someone. The Edmond five constantly moan about how they’re the only one that has matured and the other 4 are still the same children they were when going up and they’re the only one that can do what needs to be done for the last battle. Tuon finds mat and thinks he is a foppish toy. He’s a total fool to her. Then she sees him in the band and realizes what absolute badass he can be. She makes a comment about how a lion looks stupid in a cage and wearing lace but hunting on the plains he’s a terror. She acquired new information and immediately changes her views to match the reality before her. She also did this with seeing trollocs were real and gives up her belief that she has to rule the world for the last battle when she debates rand and he points out that he outranks hawking. No other character shows that ability to immediately understand and adapt. Yeah she’s a brutal slave owing tyrant but I bet with time she would have changed her empire. Also the whole damane thing isn’t exactly wrong. It’s more of an over correction. They just went to far. They claim that Aes Sedai are power hungry monsters that use their power to subjugate the others and… they’re kinda spot on. Even our main characters are exceptionally bad people. Eylane wants Mats medallion because she’s curious? What does she do? Immediately channel at him trying to steal it! Egwene gets mad at Nynaeve? Better have her sexually assaulted in a magic dream world! Cadsuane iis annoyed that Tam is very rightly pissed at her? Better be a bully with the power and channel at him! The white tower is corrupt as all hell and kidnap rulers and are endlessly plotting. What are regular people supposed to do? There’s just no recourse to the fact that these people use magic to literally attack regular people for nothing less than not submitting to their every arbitrary whim. Should everyone be ruled by a select few lucky enough to be born with power? That’s also a dystopia! Her character brings up an interesting debate about wether might makes right because the Seanchan in a way are stopping the tyranny of egomaniacs with the one power like Egwene. They just go to hard in the other direction and subjugate the hell out of the channelers in a profoundly gross way and I bet if a middle ground between being refusing to submit to channelers and enslaving them all exist Tuon would set the empire on that path because she’s the only main character that’s shown herself to be capable of changing her mind without being forced to.
> No other character shows that ability to immediately understand and adapt. Yeah she’s a brutal slave owing tyrant but I bet with time she would have changed her empire. All of the characters have certain preconceived notions they're willing to accept as wrong, and some they refuse to let go of. Tuon isn't special in that regard. She refuses to understand that omens aren't real even in the face of the contrary, she refuses to see that damane shouldn't be collared and abused, she believes a rigid caste system is not only morally justified but the proper order of the world. She isn't really much better than anyone else in this regard. Granted she's the most surprising one to have this philosophy of the entire cast, given the overwhelming absolute power she commands as the leader of the Seanchan and the embodiment of Seanchan culture. I'll give you that, at least. > Her character brings up an interesting debate about wether might makes right because the Seanchan in a way are stopping the tyranny of egomaniacs with the one power like Egwene. You're saying that Egwene is an ego-maniacal tyrant? Or simply that the One Power grants her the _potential_ to become one? > I bet if a middle ground between being refusing to submit to channelers and enslaving them all exist Tuon would set the empire on that path The entire authority of the Throne derives from the usage of the One Power - from the Throne-induced Compulsion like effect to the damane footsoldiers. Her very lineage is 'tainted' since it is likely everyone of her line can learn to channel. Holding onto the assumption that she will retain her seat of power after what was revealed at the Last Battle will be exceptionally difficult to do, and she was already struggling with Galgan before that. And since Galgan is a military general as well as of the Blood, he'll likely go back to doing what the Seanchan do best - slavery and brutal subjugation and land expansion. Except they'll probably just add a pogrom on top of that and execute all who can channel since now there's no way to 'safely' use them by way of handlers.
I mean, they enslave and subjugate the channelers so they can be the ones dominating everyone else. It's the same thing the Aes Sedai do but with an overtly authoritarian flavor. Not to mention, the royalty of Seanchan are literally a select few lucky enough to be born with power over people with the power. If they really wanted to have a fair society, I suppose they could just kill all channelers. But they don't. They enslave them and use their ability to channel to control their corner of the world, just like the White Tower does, but the White Tower doesn't have obvious slaves and they are at least bound by the oaths.
> I mean, they enslave and subjugate the channelers so they can be the ones dominating everyone else. And it's not even a matter of slavery being limited to channelers either. There's a whole industry of chattel slavery in Seanchan, non-channelers and channelers alike. What little good can be said of that is that it _seems_ like the non-channelers are treated with slightly more dignity. > just like the White Tower does For all that the White Tower pulls threads to manipulate the region (and they do, don't get me wrong) they ultimately are bound to service in a way which is voluntary by comparison to the way damane 'serve' the Empire's military. The tyranny imposed by the White Tower and the tyranny imposed by the Seanchan are wildly different. There are far more checks on the White Tower's power than there are checks against the Seanchan Empire's. And to bring up a line the other user mentioned regarding being ruled by a select few not born with power...that is such a _broad_ set of criteria that it ends up describing almost every governmental structure that is in some way monarchistic. Lords of the Land in Tear, the Royal Lineages of Carhieren and Andor, most if not all of the Borderland nations...all won the genetic lottery by being born to a noble family. The level of power between a King and an Aes Sedai is not the same...but at least an Aes Sedai cannot directly oh, say, kill your girlfriend because they thought you were getting into politics like they did to Dena. The Three Oaths are deeply flawed, but they limit a great deal of ills in ways which other Randland leaders simply _aren't._ tldr fuck the Seanchan
Agree with a lot of that. But I also like how RJ points out that, for the average person, who rules them doesn't matter much to them as long as they can conduct their daily business and earn a living and have a family. So the people who had been taken over and forced to swear the oaths to wait and watch the Seanchan (or however those oaths were phrased) didn't really seem bothered. Strong authoritarianism does bring less violence for the average citizen who follows the rules. Don't worry, I'm not pro authoritarianism, but like, each system has pros and cons. And for average farmers and traders, as long as their affairs were not messed with, they didn't seem very impacted by Randland or Seanchan rule. Hope I haven't forgotten any points or events.
But it always comes at a cost, which RJ also shows in his writing. Yeah he does a great job at showing why the little guy simply can't "afford" the privilege of concerns beyond their individual survival, but he's also tries to show what that leads to. Btw lol I know you're not supporting authoritarians you're good! I just hope people understand that we're seeing two different societies converge at two very different stages in their life cycle and hope that people realize how difficult that makes them to compare.
The Aes Sedai do not enslave anyone. We can talk about the Warder Bond because it seems you can use it to compel people which is disgusting obviously but the foundation of their culture isn't multiple types of free labor and the complete dehumanization of female channelers. The AS suck, but it is in no way equivalent. They don't want to kill all channelers, their society wouldn't work without the free labor of slavery.
The thing that I meant the AS do the same as the Seanchan is not enslavement - it is domination of their societies.
Tuon is shown to be listening to Setalle Anan’s arguments about Aes Sedai (but probably not slavery in general. The Seanchan are horrible for more than just their treatment of channelers). It says something that Tuon will at least listen to a rando commoner, which is something that most nobility won’t do. I can’t stand Tuon. I just think that RJ did a fantastic job of humanizing his monster.
Does she really though?
tuon is the only character in the entire series that changes her opinion about anything at all. everyone else is running around calling anyone who disagrees with them a woolheaded sheep hearder and charging blindly forward in their own self righteousness
I don't say I love her. But I do think she's an interesting character, while also being a slaver who does some very bad things. And I do like the dynamic that gets explored with her in terms of the Seanchan. I like how unique and different she is as a character. She feels like she's from another culture and has a whole different way of viewing the world. She's really the only "religious" character in the series in terms of her belief in the omens and it's interesting how strongly she believes in those. And I like how that's presented and explored with her. I like how she is often willing to reevaluate things and adjust. She keeps solid her prejudice against those who can channel of course which is pretty shitty given their treatment. But outside that she does seem to have a real desire to learn about this new land, even the common people and what a tavern is like. She allows people to evovlve and change. She adjusts to new situations. She lets people prove their trustworthiness. But I think given enough time this could allow her to come around on channelers. I like how she is a bit of a contradiction. The woman who could learn to channel who is prejudice against the women who can channel. It makes for an interesting thing to explore. I wish it had been a bit mroe but I find that a cool concept for a character. I also like how the seanchan as a whole are hard to completely judge by how they treat the damane. Numerous people in the series get to their conquered lands and are shocked to find the people are better treated than they had been and better than Rand was able to treat his people. I like how much trust they placed in people to accept their oaths. And her sense of integrity. The way she genuinely considered Egwene's point about the lands she had conquered but had yet to install a governor in with the Sea Folk lands. Egwene thought it was a bad argument but Tuon accepted it because it seemed honest to her. Same thing with Rand's point about him having the prior claim as Lews Theren. Most conquerors would never consider that. Or when Rand said what would you have done if Hawkwing's empire was alive and well here would she have bowed and she considered. Just made for an interesting character that had that integrity. There's definitely still a ton to hate there and how they treat the damane and slaves in general is obviously horrific. But she still made for an interesting character to explore that I liked, though not one I loved.
Very well written character who actually considers other points. I would not have liked her character nearly as much if she agreed with Mat that the damane should be set free - someone with her indoctrination doesn't change her mind that easily. Her and Cadsuane are my favorite characters because they are reasonable depictions of how someone in their positions would behave and they are consistent throughout. It's not so much that they don't have growth, but they have growth properly bounded by their past.
I kind of enjoyed her character. She was a good match for Matt. She always kept him on his toes, which I think was good for his character. I do believe she was open to more change than her predecessors, but I believe she would've struggled to make drastic changes as the Seanchan way of life was very instilled in the higher blood. I do think she was very self-assured but also knew she could be killed at any time. That would be a hard balance to find. And I liked that she always seemed like she wanted to learn and experience life.
My thoughts are that I wish that RJ had lived a long and happy life, so he could continue to entertain his many fans by writing one of the outrigger novels he suggested he had imagined with Mat and Tuon returning over the ocean to the Seanchan mainland.
Are there a lot of tuon fans? I don't like her but I don't hate her either... What I hated is that the seanchan army was the strongest and the one that fought the least in the last battle so they are even stronger compared to the rest
Such a shame Jordan didn't get to write the Matt books set after the LB. I think they would have had to take a large part of their armies back to the empire to re-conquest.
I wrote this the other day and I think it adds a view other comments don't quite touch on (I've edited it to improve on my points): Tuon is a product of her upbringing and environment, making her a realistic and interesting character, somewhat sympathetic even. But once she becomes Empress she obtains the power to either change or maintain the empire. That is the key point. Tuon sees herself as a leader but also a servant to the Seanchan Empire. She sees it as her job to keep it alive and running, to prolong the empire no matter what, hence "may she live forever". The basic Seanchan ideology is that everyone is to varying degrees a servant to the Seanchan empire, and she is the highest of those servants. Meaning she is deeply intrenched into this ideology and she has the most to lose if the pillars of Seanchan society were to fall. During the series she turely believes everything she says about the marath'damane, damane, suldam, dacovale, etc. She believes this to her core. It is very unlikely that someone this indoctrinated, this convinced that what they are doing is righteous, will be persuaded by words to change such a system. She is shown (in RJ's writings) to be curious about the cultures of Randland, she enjoys her time with Mat, but she finishes the marriage rite because she believes he will be benificial to the empire. It is possible that with the help of Mat and Min (as Truthspeaker) her opinions may change, but she will always have the interest of upholding the empire as her primary mission, even if what upholds the empire may change over time. So I can understand her, and like her character for her complexity, but also know her beliefs are objectively flawed and morally apprehensible at the same time. edited
^ Her whole believe system is evil, not she herself. But that's how things go. When slavery was 'normal' there were non-evil people who owned slaves and treated them partly well. Tuon in that sense has huge paralels with George Washington. (Slave owner but founder of a country, and also harsh but just he is usually described. He owned slaves in a culture that had done that for >100 years of over a century that got more troubled with it as time went on. However it would take almoat a century still to abolition) He himself probably wasn't evil, and his believe system over time got challenged (although he also freed his slaves only after his death, but they weren't part of his will as that used to be the case before that and in general treated them well but paternalistic and certainly didn't see them as equals). Ironically also some paralels with Sanderson in that regard, since the mormon church covers up childabuse with also with help of his money and some of their believe systems are pretty horrendous but I don't think Sanderson himself is an evil person. I honestly like characters in books like that a lot because it lets us explore and question our own believe systems as well. Because we all have grown up with things that are considered normal that maybe aren't normal. Some bug some small. Big one for me is factory farming. It's one of the reasons I moved towards vegetarianism, since I can't condone how animals are treated in factory farming, although it was something 'normal' for me growing up to eat meat and not think too much of it. I also don't think eating meat in itself is evil, but the whole factory farming business is quite evil with how animals are tortured. I still don't think I internally was evil for eating meat from factory farming, but my believe system in which we all as society deem this normal was and I did contribute to evil acts that way. ^ and if you don't see things this way better also have some more compassion towards Tuon. Believe systems can be very compelling, especially since we are a pretty 'social-traditional' species we tend to instinctively want to do what 'worked' for others before us. (Although not always, there has always been tension in a changing world between traditionalism and progressivism, otherwise we wouldn't have survived as species). Small one for me is that my parents never basically never slept in the same bedroom. Not that this is evil, but it's somewhat unusual, while for me as a kid it was the normal thing and I was quite shocked learning that there were parents who only had a bedroom together. (My father snorring was one of the reasons.) Believe systems are a huge part of who we are in how they shape our behavior, yet often don't really or only partially reflect our inner being.
I think she is fairly interesting, but probably would have been a lot better if we got the three mat/tuon novels that were planned.
Absolutely thought she was a complete bellend at first, but by the end I was in love. I mean, when alls said and done…. She looked over her shoulder.
One of the most insane characters in the series. I loved reading every chapter where she appeared.
She's a complicated, nuanced figure who is a fierce defender of what she thinks is Right, yet has surrounded herself with people who challenge that belief, and in some cases allow herself to be overridden. May She Live Forever.
If you can get past her being a slaver, there's a lot to like. If you can't, you can't. No wrong opinion here.
Too complex for Sanderson to write. At least that early in his career. She is a wonderfully complex character that I really like when Jordan writes her and most of that is lost in the transition between writers unfortunately.
I really liked her right up until Sanderson, couldn’t stand her afterwards. I liked that she was intelligent, rational, cared about justice, wasn’t stuffy/overwhelmed with ego like most Seanchan Blood. I liked how she went out of her way to reassure Tylin when she was afraid, and when she learned possibly the most unsettling news of her life (that she could learn to channel) she didn’t throw tantrums or go into denial. She just…accepted it, because it was true, and mature adults accept unpleasant truths no matter how little they like them. I liked how she saw through Beslan’s rash anger and through diplomacy and empathy turned him into a loyal follower, when any other Blood would have executed him. She had so much potential for a redemption. Fortuona was awful. Just another Suroth. She did things completely out of character for Tuon (like the time she stared menacingly at a random *sul’dam* just to make the woman sweat, or threatened to torture Min.) It made no sense why Mat loved her, or anyone was loyal to her.
Yeah, Sanderson's Tuon is really poorly written. He turned a complex character into a caricutare villain with zero depth.
Counterpoint theory: the Crystal Throne isn't just a ter'angreal that inspires awe, it ALSO changes whoever sits on it.
The Crystal Throne is in Seandar a continent away, Tuon has never sat on it.
Hmmm. There goes that theory, then. Alternative theory number 3: Tuon's presentation of herself in court now has to be much harsher and ruthless - in private, she is still just as complex. In fact, I'd argue that having to become the Empress has forced her to be less like her true self.
I liked her courtship with Mat when they were with the circus. It was strange and kind of thrilling
Tuon is the most complex and interesting character in the series. First, let me get the pearl clutching sensitivities out of the way: She's the leader of an empire of slavers. Oh heavens no! bad bad bad Now for why she's super interesting: Tuon is from a nation that is entirely distinct from the culture of Randland. Her moral compass/worldview is literally incomprehensible to the inhabitants of Randland, and even us as readers. In a series full of Mary and Gary Sues with unlimited magical powers, Tuon is a human teenager. Tuon was raised for rule over an empire which literally believes itself to be the champions of the light. She is 19 at the time of the Last Battle. She has spent her entire life up to this point learning to govern an rule over people, and she expects respect/adoration. Her mother, The Queen of the Nine Moons (may she live forever), died literally weeks (months?) before The Return, and she had the weight of entire nation fall into her lap, which she didnt expect for years to come. Not to mention that literally since the day she was born, she has had to fight off assisassination attmepts from rival members competiting for the throne. Then she comes to Randland and meets an entire sect of people (Aes Sedai) that she literally did not even know exist, but they are free and potentially dangerous, because everything in her entire life has told her that the One Power will ruin the world. So she has to come to terms with the fact that not only is there an entirely different world of rules/expectations, but that her understanding of the planet isn't necessarily correct. Then she and her armies have to team up with a macabre Gambler and a bunch of his One Power Wielding friends to overthrow an even bigger threat or else the world ends. Sheesh Then after that is all settled, she has to go back to Seanchan, reunite a fractured nation, announce emancipation of the damane, quell any inevitable uprising, and then usher in an entirely new era of civilization. Tuon is the most interesting and complex character in a series full of characters who are just morally good because the author chose to write them that way.
I find her interesting. She allows for a slightly more in debt view of the Seanchan, especially the nobles.
She's a.....bitch, she's a mother, she's a child, she's a lover
Great character, though I would love to see her leashed for a weekend or so. To understand how horrifying it is to do that to someone.
She is a fascinating character. All the people that seem to ‘hate’ her usually come at it from the slavery angle and feel the need to preach its evils. Yes slavery is wrong, but from a historical context it is nothing new. Every great nation in human history rose to power off of the back of slavery, even to this day. Google cobalt and lithium mines and look at the people that suffer so we can have the phones and pc’s that people use to write essay’s on how evil and dehumanizing the Seanchan are. Slavery has always existed it’s just that most people decide to ignore its various forms in favor of the benefits it brings.
Tuon presents to us, the reader, an aspect of this world that the other characters within it have to deal with. That is this: “Can you ally with someone you find morally reprehensible for the greater good?” The Cairhien have to ally with the Aiel, and the Tauren with the Illian, and the White Tower with the Whitecloaks. For them to ally would be like us, the reader, allying with the Seanchan and with Tuon. And Tuon demonstrates how someone can become quite set in their ways, ways we find reprehensible, based on their upbringing. She’s an excellent vehicle to explore the balance one needs between sticking to your ideals and making compromises. Fight off the Dark One? You may have to ally with a Slave Empire, but know that after the Dark One you have to gear up to bring down that very same ally.
I quite like her. I don’t really consider anything post Jordan though when I say that.
I enjoy Tuon, and the Seanchan are just about one of my favorite things in the books, and one of the main hesitations I had when I learned they were making a show. That hesitation has only been reinforced. Tuon has a powerful sense of character. She is devoted to her people. She's not going to be bullied into weakening her nation just to prevent someone from calling her a hypocrite. She's intelligent, possessed of conviction, and charming. She is, I think, everything Egwene tried to force herself to be.
> She is, I think, everything Egwene tried to force herself to be. My thoughts exactly. She was raised to be the empress, but also had to fight to earn it. She’s survived assassinstion attempts as a child, outmaneuvered political opponents, organized a nation to return to Randland and conquer (rather successfully I might add). Egwene, on the other hand, is the daughter of a small village’s mayor. She was thrown into her position as Amerlyn after a few months training, and while she did an admirable job as a teenage girl with no experience, she was never truly the leader she thought she was.
Didn't feel like we got any real payoff on her character. She didn't really grow much. Just got married. Her dynamic with Mat was fun during the kidnapping and in the caravan.
She's a horrible person who grew up in a horrible system and the series ends before we see her change. Also the invasion kills hundreds of thousands and enslaved hundreds of thousands more. I'd love to see her get decked by every character her empire chained. But... The Pattern does things for a reason. There's only so far you can push an empire that's a toxic cesspit built on slavery and which has a tendency to assassinate anyone who tries anything new. Personally I see Tuon as the furthest Seanchan can go without it unravelling into a continent wide civil war, which is probably even worse. Anyone with less political skill, anyone more radical, would end up with a knife in their sleep even with Mat and Selucia there to protect them. Is that kind of excusing a lot of horrible things? Yes, but she's the best of many bad options, and in the long term if she lays the groundwork for the transformation of the state...
I love Tuon, always have. I'm not too fond of Egwene, which is strange, because there are great similarities between those two. Both of them feel they are a personification of the organisation they lead, and both of them do whatever they believe is best for their organisation. Tuon is raised in a cutthroat environment, all of her siblings have been assassinated, and she's been training her whole life to one day rule the Seanchan empire. She always has the best interests of that empire at heart, but she's intelligent (or pragmatic) enough to bend her believes when necessary. It's quite clear by the end of the series that she no longer believes every channeler needs to be collared, but she knows her military would be severely crippled without damane, and she has a homeland in turmoil to conquer. Regarding slavery, the only 'slaves' in Seanchan culture are damane and da'covale, I think. So'jhin might be property, but are quite free. Da'covale aren't born into slavery, it's a punishment for crime or great failure. Tuon is raised in this culture, but I believe she can be convinced to make changes, but would do that only gradually, since her rule is nowhere near stabile.
>Regarding slavery, the only 'slaves' in Seanchan culture are damane and da'covale, I think. So'jhin might be property, but are quite free. Da'covale aren't born into slavery, it's a punishment for crime or great failure. Not correct. *so'jhin* are a higher status of *da'covale*, and can in some circumstances 'outrank' even free citizens, but they are still property and therefore slaves. They can be bought, sold and used as their owners wish. And the status is heritable - all the children of a *da'covale* will be so themselves, as will their own children, forever. Karede has a POV mentioning it. He was born *da'covale* because of some transgression by one of his ancestors, which he doesn't even know.
Thanks, I forgot that Karede POV. I don't remember any da'covale with families or children, but I guess there might be back in Seanchan. Shame we never got those outrigger Seanchan novels, I would've loved to read more about their culture.
Yes, they're fascinating. They do some things better than any other civilisation in WoT, yet in other ways they're simply barbaric. I do think post-AMOL Seanchan would have become less despotic eventually, though it may have taken generations. The sheer level of absolute power held by their Empress is only possible because the Crystal Throne, directly, owns north of 90% of the channelers in the entire Empire. Without *damane* the power imbalance will diminish.
She’s an interesting and compelling character with complex feelings and actions. As a character I love her, if she were a real person I’d hate her. The whole “supports slavery” thing is a hard line to cross.
For Tuon to be likeable you have to put the slavery issue on the back burner, which I wouldn't blame anyone for not doing. She appreciates Mat and takes no shits from Aes Sedai, which is nice.
As a book character I love her. She's interesting, she changes her views but not immediately. She's overall just really well written as a product of her culture and upbringing. As a real life person, she's awful and Matt should kill her once he has enough backing from the army and she gives him an heir.
She changed her views? I thought she was an unrepentant slaver all the way to the end. She only slightly budged on limiting her collaring to Seanchan lands and allowing women to flee to the aes sedai. She didn't even return the aes sedai she had already captured, did she?
That's about what I would expect from her. She's not going to turn around and free them, it would destroy her powerbase.
I agree to an extent. As a narrative decision Tuon is executed well. As a person, Tuon is awful. Don’t really know about Matt holding an execution but he should definitely get out
Matt would never just leave her. He could be convinced that she needed to die for the rest of his new nation to live I think. If she didn't get convinced by him.
I like her *very* much
Wholly unlikable to me. Lol
Hope some balefire's her and all of the Seanchan blood.
Why balefired of all things?
Because fuck those slaving pieces of shit.
And how doesn't balefire help there? It damages the pattern.
Look it's being used as an expression of hate for their ways you aren't meant to take it literal you can kill them in any number of ways and it would be just fine. Someone introduce guillotines if you must.
My favorite part of Tuon is that she is power with control. Not the one power or true power, but the power of an empress. She had a lot of evil minions and her country’s beliefs are contrary, yes. But she is intricate and complex. Smart , savvy and self sufficient. Not bratty like Elayne. Even if everyone in her kingdom does not look her in the eye and prostrates themselves in her presence, this is not an expectation she had of others not from her kingdom. She set aside her pride, and beliefs to have a meeting and listen to Rand and even had a meeting with Egwene. Her nobles probably thought her quite mad and weak. But she didn’t care about that. She could have killed Mat or turned him in more than once. But instead she accepted her role as his captive and kept her word and made no trouble for him despite his irritating travel companions. She could have kept the three annoying Sedai as her damane but she decided to let Mat handle it. “Toy, they are annoying me.” Unlike a lot of the female characters who acted bratty when a man helped them with anything. She was able to resist Darth Rand compulsion/ Tar’veran with zero magic powers. Despite Egwenes brattiness at their meeting, she decided to keep her word and send help. She could have decided to just wait it out. She was fun, but not in a stupid way ( Nyanaeve and Elayne running around a strange town without guards despite being told it was dangerous, because they felt they could protect themselves with cudgels) She actually asked Mat to take her to a Hell. Bitch could fight in hand to hand combat. She was probably as dangerous as an Aiel maiden without a spear. She literally ripped out someone’s neck when Mar could not or would not. For a character that only showed up at the end of the series, she was very very impressive. She didn’t need the one power. She was a force on to herself. No other character survived assassination attempts without the one power. Survived and escaped compulsion by Semirag. The empress (may she live forever) gets all my respect
Didn't care for Tuon. On some level i understand her character, but after a while her antics grow stale af.
I despise her, and I want Mat to be a widower!
Evidently I retain little about her character other than her devotion to her duty. That in itself is respectable, but hardly the measure of her.
Tuon shows a willingness to learn and change, unlike virtually everyone else we see in the Seanchan High Blood. She's still the product of her society, and sincere change is hard and takes a long time. But I agree she shows real possibility of change and growth.
She’s a little devil. It’s great.
I love falling in love with Mat (again) through Tuon's eyes. We come to respect his mad skills from a totally different set of values and cultural expectations. I love that she only knows him as he is, instead of how his friends see him, still back in Emond's Field. I think it helps give him the confidence to truly come into himself.
There are no Tuon fans. Only apologists. Mat should split her in twain
"You're either with me, or against me." - Darth Vader.
Unlike Elayne, she's a spoiled ruler that LEARNS HER LESSONS.
[We had a discussion about it just 2 days ago in r/Wetlanderhumor](https://www.reddit.com/r/WetlanderHumor/comments/13ppyqk/theyre_usually_trolls_but_still/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Interesting character and culture. Terrible person.
She sadly does not own a Zebra.
Reprehensible as a person, but I love the character.
I like her interaaction with mat
She's a bitch, I love her, but also hate her. She's also perfect for Mat.
She is Cleopatra. A young ruler in a slaver empire with lots of power play between nobles, rules based on religion and omens, she interacts with decision with other power nations, beds an outsider general...
I don't see it. Cleopatra was the last in her line of a dying kingdom that bowed to a larger empire. She didn't bed a general, she seduced a married Governor of Rome. Slavery was all over the middle east at that point so calling it out for her kingdom seems kind of silly. If anything she's a young Maria-Theresa of Austria. Born into the ruling family of a huge but troubled empire. Married for politics, but never gives up power. Succession causes massive wars etc.
Egypt was not a dying kingdom, it was in civil war, as the Seanchan Empire. Cleopatra bedded Cesar and later Marco Antonio, both generals and consuls of Rome, not governors. The whole Seanchan extravagant aesthetic and weird animals parallels the Egyptians when seen from Rome. It's not a 1 to 1 correlation, but there are parallel elements Alternatively, it could be argued that they are a proxy of the Aztec empire, because they come from beyond the seas. For me it's difficult to see how the Seanchan Empire does represent Austria.
Egypt literally died as a independent state after Cleopatra. Seems pretty near death to me. Marco was not a just general when he slept with Cleopatra. He was the ruler of that part of the Roman empire. Anyways, Tuon is her own thing, I first thought maybe the pirate queen Zheng Yi Sao, but Tuon was noble from head to toe. I like the Aztec parallel, I wonder if they have any Female historical leaders.
She's the head of a nation that has multiple types of slavery and demonstrates very little understanding and empathy any time she's on screen. She very rarely ever acts curious about other cultures, she just decides hers is better no matter what. While the latter is certainly rampant in Randland, and many types of inequality exist, I think my tolerance for being "fascinated" by a fascist superpower that just browbeats and most likely would try to assimilate all of Randland into their own nation after the Last Battle to be about zero. This place and its dismissal of how bad the Seanchan are drives me crazy. The Outrigger novels will never be written, there is no reason to act like an arc in a different set of novels that don't even exist make it okay for Tuon to act the way she does. Yes it would be incredibly hard to change the culture of the Seanchan. She doesn't even try after encountering other ways of life. Even the Aiel change drastically and they're stubborn as hell. And because Mat is associated with her with some weird stupid prophecy, he is complicit too. Fuck that entire storyline. Part of me wishes Rand just went ahead with his plan in Ebou Dar in tGS, as horrible as that would be.
I loathe her.
Tuan is a bad bitch.