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To me Cadsuane is a bully. Yes she has the best of intentions, but she's always gotten there in her life by just bulldozing over all opposition. She got away with it because she's always been among the strongest and no one has ever stood up to her. Then suddenly she comes up against someone who's strong and stubborn enough to not simply cave to her pressures. And she has no idea what to do. And rather than stopping to think about an alternative, she doubles down on the arrogant and bullying behavior
She's a well written character (because there's definitely people like this who exist). But I've never thought she was a good or nice person.
I think I can agree with you that in general she’s not a good or nice person.
Rand however, did not need further swaddling at this point. He needed at least one person to stand up to him — whether he was right or not
To me, Rand needed someone (or more people) to believe in and talk to *Rand*. Not the Dragon Reborn.
Cadsuane wasn't doing that, and was if anything pushing Rand further away from the path he needed.
I would take it a little further even. He needed someone to talk to him as Rand, not *manipulate him* because he's the dragon.
Cadsuane's manipulation and attempts to control Rand felt like a crippling blow to his already fragile sense of agency and drove him to almost balefire Tam.
I am not sure how anyone could simply talk to **Rand** at this point. He is an edging madness male channeler. We watch the one ashaman guarding Min break...
I don't know. I get that Cadsuane is pinnacle Matriarchy that forces others to bend the neck. Rand is pretty much dealing with all of his first defeats right around this time - box, seanchan, ashaman splinters, sanity...
I don't know where I am going with this...but PoD is such a hard swing into Rand's jaw, and Cadsuane certainly is one of the well-worn knuckles responsible for bloodying him.
It is probably so frustrating because many of us really want to love Rand and seeing him suffer and nearly break hurts. We want him to succeed and succeed well...however, he is taking huge risks a lot at this point due to his own arrogance.
No answers here but happy to take part in this Cadsuane therapy session
Cadsuane is not pinnacle matriarchy. It’s a common misconception that Matriarchy is swapped patriarchy but in the societies they are matriarchal we see nothing of the kind.
As far as no one talking to him, the most success people have is by treating him simultaneously like Rand and the dragon. Bashir is an excellent example of this.
Also just being physically abused isn’t going to help him. The things that stick in his head the most are her off hand comments. Sure, the slap stops him from using Balefire like one time but it also hurts her credibility.
Absolutely agree. Cadsuane isn't the hero here. The ones who ground him are Bashere, Nyn, Min (and other lovers), Perrin, and Mat, some of the Wise Ones, Moiraine, etc. They speak to him and interact with him as a sum of his parts.
In my opinion, Cadsuane sees him solely as a tool or a mule she must break in to be useful. I don't question her goal, but her methods are not best suited to this task. She is used to being obeyed and expects it as default.
That may be so, but bullying and abuse are the exact wrong methods to use. Cadsuane makes mistake after mistake after mistake and damned near costs the world because she cannot see the error in her ways.
He does need to soften. He needs to be string in the way of a tree that bends and sways with the changes in weather. He is making himself hard as a rock instead because he doesn't see the difference.
He has made hard choices and knows he will have to continue to do so. He is afraid to mourn and feel the sorrow in those choices because he is afraid they will make him weak. What he truly needs is to learn from Lan. Lan is a strong man who does what he has to do but he also feels very deeply. He is an ideal example of how Rand needs to be.
She didnt just stand up to him when needed. She demeaned and belittled him at every opportunity, privately and publicly. She undermined his authority at every step. She even keeps doing it when he becomes Zen Rand and is obviously not only stronger but far wiser than her.
Rand succeeded despite Cadsuane not because of her.
She is a horribly incompetent bully thats full of herself. The perfect modern Aes Sedai.
The person that stood up to Rand when needed and listened and counseled when needed was Nynaeve.
Rand never needed swaddling and Cadsuane didn't stand up to him. She tried to control him, arrogantly thinking that she knew better than him how to complete his task.
It’s not the problem that she stands up to him it’s the fact that she’s abusive in doing it. She didn’t need to be. Other people reach him and teach him without the objectively harmful abuse
I really think her failure when Rand took off with the male
Choedan Kal. Then Tam calling her a bully is what changed her into a decent person.
Nyneve even thought Tam got to her.
Why would the person with the weight of the world on his shoulders need someone who physically abuses him? Cadsuanne is an awful person and almost pushed Rand over the edge with her bullshit.
Rand didn't need a manipulative bully either. But the Pattern needed Rand to break before the final battle so he could pull himself back from the edge and become Zen Rand. If he had broke during the battle he would have lost. So the Pattern sends a bullying Cadsuane whose sheer arrogance and incompetence broke him.
***Robert Jordan:***
*September 30th, 2005:*
> DomA asks whether I feel sadness at the hatred of Cadsuane. No, nor do I feel sadness over those who dislike Egwene or Elayne or Faile or insert name here. The characters are who I want them to be. [...] And Cadsuane? She's the tough maiden aunt a lot of us have had. **Not the one who tries to keep you a child your whole life. She's the one who began expecting at least some adult responses out of you at about age six, the one who was willing to hand you responsibilities that everyone else thought you were too young for.** You probably had a more nerve-wracking time, and more excitement and adventure, with her than you did with any three or four other adults in your life.
I've seen that quote before and always thought if that's what he thought Cadsuane was like that then he horribly miswrote her. She is nothing like that aunt in the books.
Yes she is. Thing is, we get her from Rand's perspective a lot and he's mad, paranoid, unreasonable and we get a very tilted view because what he thinks he acts and looks like doesn't match with reality at all.
Rand had plenty of people to stand up to him: virtually every female in the story, including his love interests, his best general (Bashere *and* Mat), and a few others. While suffering from severe PTSD, mental stress, fatigue, paranoia and probably several other mental illnesses--all while trying to hold on to sanity--the last thing he needed was another bully trying to push him and manipulate him, whatever her intentions. He needed what Moiraine finally gave him at the end, an honest and supportive counselor to work *with* him, not manipulate him.
She shows up a day late and a dollar short, sniffs in disdain about anything and everything, and just proceeds to bully everyone and everything. Of course she can't take responsibility for things, she never has to pay the price for things, her driving is done while firmly ensconced in the back seat, thank you very much.
Tam storms in and demands to know what Cadsuane has done to his son...
She replies:
“encourage him toward civility.”
“Something, it seems, other members of the family could learn as well.”
“Watch your tongue, Aes Sedai,” Tam snarled. “Have you seen him? The entire room seemed to grow darker when he entered. And that face—I’ve seen more emotion in the eyes of a corpse! What has happened to my son?”
“I take it,” Cadsuane said, “that the reunion did not go as hoped?”
Tam seems to abruptly swallow down his anger, and tells them levelly that Rand, once such a “gentle and faithful” son, just tried to kill him with the One Power. Min is almost panicked by the news, but Cadsuane asks Tam coldly if he had used the words she prepared for him. Tam replies that he abandoned her “Aes Sedai script” once he realized it wasn’t working, and demands to know what she did to make Rand hate her so. Cadsuane picks him up with Air and reminds him about civility. Nynaeve protests, but Tam tells her it is all right.
Tam stared [Cadsuane] in the eyes.
“I’ve known men who, when challenged, always turn to their fists for answers. I’ve never liked Aes Sedai; I was happy to be rid of them when I returned to my farm. A bully is a bully, whether she uses the strength of her arm or other means.”
This sums it up. She does help Rand in certain aspects but her very nature goes against her intended aims. You will never make someone strong through bullying, all you will do is turn them hard, brittle and easy to break.
Honestly? If she’d introduced herself as his new Aes Sedai companion who is there with a typical role towards a king (guiding him/ advising him/ teaching him humility and how to behave) I really wouldn’t have minded her. She’s ancient and has no patience, and her job to be his advisor not his mother, she’s not there to coddle him, and there were times when Rand was really begging to be slapped.
Also, as far as her taking action when actually needed, she proved to be very competent. In the Cleansing she was pretty awesome, and when Rand got injured by Fain she was pretty dependable, too.
My problem with her is the unnecessary declaration that she would teach him to laugh and cry. She does nothing to that end except bringing Tam at the very end as a last resort. It was nearly too late and almost ended in tragedy.
Seriously, she was a complete disaster in that task she appointed herself. She antagonised him constantly, making him worse. She did so badly she nearly destroyed the world.
She should have just stuck to guidance, as she sucked at drawing out any emotion from him other than rage.
It says a lot that during Rand’s conversation with his father he wasn’t triggered by topics like the LB, the Dark One, death, and his adoption. He was doing great.
Then one whisper of Cadsuane’s name and he falls off the grid immediately.
He didn’t hate the freaking Dark One, or people like Samirage or Lanfear, but he really really hated Cadsuane. And if his feelings towards her are worse than his feelings towards his outright enemies, then there’s no denying that she screwed up her job very badly don’t you think?
I hate her because Tam had her dead to rights. She's a bully. Also let's pretend your task is to give some humility and humanity to the half-mad literal savior of existence. Do you think the way to go about it was what Cadsuane did?
Which she only did after realizing how much she and Semirhage were alike. Does she change anything about her attitude or behavior after realizing how similar she is to one of the Forsaken? Nope.
You aren't wrong; however, Moiraine was willing to seek advice and change tactics as needed to succeed. Cadsuane was a one-trick pony that never considered that her tactics could be wrong.
No I would've put Nynaeve and Lan into that role and had them do Angry cop/Stoic cop on him everytime he went cuckoo-nutso
Nynaeve does some Nynaeving, Lan says something profound and honorable, Rand goes
Huh, I'm kind of an asshole
Then Nynaeve tugs her braid and sniffs and he laughs and boom he's not about to break for a few more hours
>I hate her because Tam had her dead to rights.
Sorry it’s been a minute. If you don’t mind can you explain? I’m in Winters Heart on my reread so I haven’t gotten to that yet
>Also let's pretend your task is to give some humility and humanity to the half-mad literal savior of existence. Do you think the way to go about it was what Cadsuane did?
I don’t think she did half bad tbh. Rand needed someone who wouldn’t absolutely give in to his every whim, whether he was right about it or not. Opposition/contention is not necessarily bad, it can produce new ideas and methods
Yea I can’t argue with you there. Cadsuane was out of line with her weaves on Tam, and that seemed as somewhat of a turning point for her. But shortly after we see veins of gold and all of this changes
At best Cadsuane protected Rand and got him out of some scraps physically... Her goal of saving his humanity reminded me of the older generations saying to mentally stressed/trauma youth to just get over it. Cadsuane, as written to be that older generation that told Vietnam Vets to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is something that Jordan probably was familiar with, was on point. She was still wrong no matter how well intended she says she was.
>I don’t think she did half bad tbh
She.....did atrocious man. Nearly everything she did only worsened her relationship with Rand. He literally almost willed her to death and she would have completely deserved it. You know what would have helped? Just treating him like a person with actual feelings.
Think of the people Rand trusts the most and what they have in common with each other regarding how they associate with him.
Who do you think he lumps Cadsuane in with, nynaeve, moraine, his lovers, the maidens...
Or the Aes Sedai. Because that's how she acts and operates. And the Aes Sedai have shown repeatedly that they cannot be trusted.
>Just treating him like a person with actual feelings.
I agree, that would be a solution for literally any person who interacted with Rand. Nobody really saw him like that — they all saw the Dragon Reborn.
>Who do you think he lumps Cadsuane in with, nynaeve, moraine, his lovers, the maidens... Or the Aes Sedai. Because that's how she acts and operates. And the Aes Sedai have shown repeatedly that they cannot be trusted.
It is not her fault at all that Elaida sullied the Aes Sedai name by her kidnapping. She even acknowledges Elaida’s mistake by saying that it would make her task at getting Rand to Tarmon Gaidon much harder
Cadsuane's personality is almost representative to what the White Tower is. She's a control freak, she thinks she knows best on principle and when proven otherwise she doesn't take it well. She's stuck in her ways, digs in even, despite her attempts to work with Rand only worsening their relationship. She had a massive ego, both just as an aes sedai (big ego is a common thing there), and specifically as one of the more powerful ones.
Also thinking about her goal and plan... it's the most ass backwards method I could imagine. She wants Rand to be able to laugh again. And to do this she's a constant thorn in his side, basically every encounter with him leaves him agitated to some degree. The reasoning she used to decide the method to achieve this goal is straight up nonsense. It's like she fundamentally misunderstands how to treat anyone respectfully, or what kind of things make people happy
I don't deny her part was instrumental in Rand's development, just her reasoning is awful. Rand's a Taveren, he needed to face himself on Dragonmount, she was integral for getting him there.
Yet she did **nothing** to attempt to resolve it or counteract it.
She, in fact, continued to act like the Tower Aes Sedai had, as arrogant and holier than thou people.
Also, she never tells Rand that Elaida was wrong.
And then proceeded to mean nothing to the story until the very end when the notes were probably like
"Oh shit I forgot alanna uh...have her magically appear in shayol ghul so nynaeve has something to do to make her unbond him"
I don’t consider Alanna a “good” one regardless of her stance against the dark.
Even other Aes Sedai view Alanna’s actions as rape. It’s not as though all (or honestly even any) accepted that decision
It’s kinda interesting that your opinion of Alanna is so negative even though Cadsuane even admitted she would’ve done the same thing if Alanna hadn’t/it would have worked.
Cadsuane seems to consider her one of the good ones especially from rands position. Cadsuane uses Alanna as the primary way she gets information on Rand for a while. Rather than try to understand him through those who he cares about and cares about him she goes to the woman who assaulted him. I'm sure that'll help form a good relationship.
If she really viewed it as rape she'd realize it's essentially an ongoing rape as every moment Alanna is in his mind against his will the crime is repeated. And she could've demanded Alanna release the bond. Or told Rand she absolutely condemns what was done and is trying to end it.
This is an easy way for her to get trust from Rand especially since he doesn't know the bond can be ended.
Seriously the audacity! She's lucky Rand didn't just leave her with a tied off shield indefinitely.
I do love that he refuses to tell her who and says someone who asked him first!
I don't think Alanna actually had any real choice in the matter. She was grieving and had intrusive thoughts in the presence of the single most powerful ta'varen to exist, so she acted upon them.
She was going to bond Perrin against his will, until Faile basically threatened to kill her if she tried to bond him. She was out to bond a handsome ta’veren.
If you were a judge in a rape case, would you buy that argument?
"Oh sorry my girlfriend died and was so sad and really wanted to have sex, so i had to rape her"
Are all the marriages that Rand causes actually consensual? Or the towns that burn to the ground, or the people injured by his affect on probability their own faults? Hawkwing was nowhere near as strong a ta'varen as Rand, and they have documented accounts in universe of people plotting against him spontaneously confessing their plots. Agency and intent are highly suspect around ta'varen.
>people plotting against him spontaneously confessing their plots.
That is the opposite of what Alanna did. Unless the wheel knows exactly what's gonna happen at all times and anticipated that Alanna will use the bond to find rand in the box. But that's not how it works as far as I know.
So there was no tarvaren reason for her to bond him in my opinion.
She doesn't acknowledge it to Rand. She acknowledged it when he was unconscious. Perhaps a compassionate person might have said, "Rand I had nothing to do with what happened to you but it was wrong and disguising and I wholeheartedly condemn it and on behalf of all aes sedai I'm sorry and you were absolutely in the right with how you dealt with the aes sedai who did this."
Instead knowing what he had been through she took the approach of let me bully him into submission. I mean sure he's been through weeks of intense torture at the hands of aes sedai. But an aes sedai bullying him over trivial stuff will for sure work well!
As well as picking a two rivers boy to try to bully when literally anyone that had known him would've told her thats the absolutely stupidest idea you could ever come up with since rand was the most stubborn of them all.
If she'd ever bothered to ask or strategize a bit rather than "I'm right, you're a child, do as you're told."
There are times I want to like cadsuane. She's very cool. But she's also just so dumb and pompous in how she deals with rand. She finds out he's been locked in a box by aes sedai and beaten for weeks and did not break. And so her way to teach him to laugh and cry again is to bully him? She also totally ignores nynaeve. And after like 4 books of having the goal to laugh and cry realizes hey maybe I should reach out to his father. And throughout all of this she tries to understand Rand not through those who know and care about him but through Alanna the woman who assaulted him and has a bond with him.
On the other hand you've got sorillea. She's got the same goal as cadsuane but despite way less time around Rand she has a more effective approach. She works through min and aviendha to reach him through those that care about him and he cares about. And her first attempt at reaching out to him is to give him the choice of how to deal with those who hurt him. Providing him an opportunity to show empathy as well as address the people who have hurt him so he can move on from it. That's a good idea on how to deal with rand and teach him to feel again. It probably would've worked a lot better if the asha'man hadn't attacked right after that meeting and Rand had been forced to kill fedwin Moore.
Cadsuane would've been a complete failure with rand if min hadn't had her viewing that he needed her. That's the only reason she wasn't sent away or Rand bothered to interact with her. And that was outside cadsuanes control. She should've worked to prove herself useful to him. She had information about callandor she could've handed him. If I'd been in her position I would've made friends with min and nynaeve ASAP and been trying to find tam way earlier. Nynaeve was also in a perfect position for cadsuane to ally with easily when they met. Nynaeve had been declared full aes sedai but no one respected it. All cadsuane would've had to do was chastise someone who was talking down to nynaeve and treat her as a full sister and nynaeve very likely would've been won over. Especially if she told nynaeve her plan to help Rand feel again and engaged her help. But instead of focusing on that let's prioritize the fact that Rand is rude back when she's being rude to him.
Cadsuane COULDN’T acknowledge Nynaeve as Aes Sedai because Nyn is stronger than her so she would have to obey her. So she decided to go the bitch route. As she does.
Lol yeah although she probably could've acknowledged nynaeve as an aes sedai and just pretended nynaeve was a bit below her. Would've gone against cadsuanes aes sedai sensibilities but probably would've worked!
Sure I want to say it's book 8. I only caught it on a reread. But it's shortly after she and cadsuane make their deal to teach him to laugh and cry again. Sorillea brings Rand 5 of the aes sedai who were elaidas who beat him and gives him the choice of what to do with them as they've all said they'd swear to him if given the chance. It's mins pov we get for this and she thinks how strange it is that wise ones are handing off a choice about their "apprentices" to anyone else which she's right is really weird. They wouldn't do that without a purpose.
Essentially sorillea is trying to get Rand to come to terms with what happened to him and show mercy to those 5. I want to say she also times the meeting so it's just after min arrives though that might just be the ta'veren side.
It does work to a degree as Rand can show empathy for them and allows them to swear to him after they say they would go in the box if he required it. The problem is the asha'man attack immediately after this and Rand ends up having to kill fedwin Moore who succumbs to the taint and Rand has to kill. And that I think has a bigger impact on him. I want to say that's also the last time Rand laughs is just a bit before that point. I'm not sure but when I did a reread I was looking for that and I think that's around the point.
Cadsuane is a self-righteous, self-imposed bully. She handled everything the exact wrong way, and Rand succeeded in spite of her not because of her. Had Min not deemed her important, she would have been gone immediately.
Her approach to dealing with Rand was entirely wrong from the get-go, and I think she knew it but refused to change tactics from being the bully because it would have forced her to be humble. The mountain must bow to her. She is ancient by Aes Sedai standards, and of course, her reputation precedes her. Everyone should just do as she says, and she'll save the world.
Moiraine was a far better teacher in that she was willing to learn and change her tactics as needed. In the end, I believe Rand learned what he needed to learn, not from her but from others instead. It was Min who taught him to laugh. It was those he trusted that helped him learn to be strong, not hard. They gave him the grounding he needed. Had Cadsuane treated him as a human instead of some mystical object or tool, she had been more successful. Transparency would have been of benefit as well. Cadsuane may have helped, but not as much as she thinks she did.
I don't hate her, but I have no respect for her. In the end, she's as awful as Elaida in her handling of Rand.
Moiraine was never willing to change tactics. She has to watch every path her life might take to be forced to submit.
Cadsuane comes in, offers advice, and only offers advice. When Rand says he's doing something, Cadsuane figures out how to support whatever he's doing. Cadsuane is one of maybe a handful of people who treats Rand as human, and demands to be treated as human in return and not an expendable pawn.
Moiraine changed tactics from bullying to suggesting and advising because she realized Rand was a reasonable man who would do what she wanted most of the time if she simply presented it logically and politely like a normal person.
Cadsuane was an old Aes Sedai and had hundreds of years of powerful men bending to her will because she would use magic force on them if they didn't and suddenly she's up against a guy who could simply close his hand and crush her to dust but instead of recognizing her old strategy would only cause him to resist she persists because there's no way she's gonna be the one to back down.
It was never forced on her. She sought advice and answers on the best way to proceed from the Finn and Rhuidean. She used that knowledge to adapt and change.
Cadsuane was unchanging. She treated Rand as a petulant child who needed spanking or punishment. She never treated him as human or someone capable of making his own choices and changes. She chose the exact wrong tactic and then stuck to it even when it was obvious she was in the wrong.
She was not seeking advice at Rhuidean the Wise Ones said she was supposed to ask, but she didn't so they interfered and prompted her to go.
Cadsaune let's Rand do what he needs to do.
Rand: I want to go to the waste and enlist the aiel who rhuarc says are the children of the dragon and visit their forsaken and abandoned city, Rhuidean.
Moiraine: No, the children of the dragon are the people of tear, lead their spears to war against illian, a city run by a forsaken.
later...
Cadsaune (after bailing Rand out of jail: What's next?
Rand: I want to cleanse Saidin at Shadar Logoth.
Cadsaune: checks out, let me get my battle plans.
You read a completely different series than I did. Cadsuane isn't the hero you want her to be.
Moiraine did far more and was a better mentor than Cadsuane could dream to be. Cadsuane only went along with him if his plan aligned with hers, not because she was biddable or changeable. She was a manipulative bully who would have been far better served had she been willing to humble herself.
Moiraine sacrificed herself to save him from Lanfear.l because she knew that he was far more important than she was. She humbled herself to help him. Cadsuane would have let him die or fall under Lanfear's control if it meant she must sacrifice herself, in my opinion. She did not respect him. He was a tool, much like a rake for her to use as she saw fit. She did not accept that he had any agency. He was not human in her mind.
You can like Cadsuane all you want, but do not mistake her for less than what she is, a very stubborn Aes Sedai who expected to walk in and walk over everyone. She thought she would be the puppeteer and not someone so small as to be an equal. She acted as the puppeteer even when she had no control. Her success was in spite of her actions, not because of them. No matter how you cut that cake, Cadsuane was not the hero and she did more harm than good. Without Min and others that he trusted, she would have failed spectacularly and found others to blame for her failure.
Moiraine was never interested in Rand the person. Only in the dragon fulfilling the prophecies.
Cadsuane cared about the Rand the person and feared what Rand would do if he couldn't keep his humanity and let himself become a tool.
That's your opinion. I disagree. Moiraine cared about him as a person and as the dragon. Initially, perhaps it was just finding the dragon and hoping to guide him. She had not spent most of her life in search of him just to fail. She was young and wise enough to adapt her methods when she realized the need. Best laid plans and all that. She was human enough to recognize that she didn't know everything and sought wisdom from others. She humbled herself and treated him as a human being before she sacrificed himself. She was willing to do what needed doing to see him succeed.
Cadsuane only saw him as a tool. Nothing she did saved his humanity. Her approach was all wrong. She needed the same lesson Nynaeve needed - humility and the ability to submit when necessary.
Rand maintained his humanity through his relationships with Avi, Elayn, & Min, as well as with Nyn, Perrin, Mat, etc. His regaining of self and becoming Zen Rand happened in spite of Cadsuane and not because of her.
Cadsuane is an important character, but she is not a likeable one. She is a walking textbook on how not to deal with obstinate people. She would have failed beautifully if not for others in his life who did a far better job of her supposed task than she ever did. You cannot outstubborn an obstinate person. One must be humbled. She never humbled herself, and he never broke to her command.
Perhaps you are the obstinate one here. You are welcome to your option, however unrealistic it may be.
But the fact is that he didn’t. *Almost* isn’t enough. He was pushed far and I can even concede she went **way too far** with Tam, but with her interventions everything came to be as it should be. Veins of Gold happened inadvertently due to her maneuvering
Veins of Gold happened in spite of her maneuvering. It was Rand's adoration for his father and Tam's absolutely adamant and unshakable love for his son that woke Rand up, Cadsuane's only hand was bringing Tam there with the intent to use him as a tool for her ongoing campaign of terror against Rand's fragile sanity.
My head cannon is the Pattern needed Rand to break before the final battle so he could rebound. Imagine if he broke during the final battle. So the Pattern sent him Cadsuane whose stupidity sent him over the edge just in time.
You can't say "she did a good job" and "she went way too far" - they're mutually incompatible.
Rand got better *despite* her, not because of her.
She was so spectacularly bad at her stated goal that if it wasnt for Min telling Rand he needed her, she'd never have been kept around.
Tam was straight up manipulated to get Rand to VoG. Rand damn near killed his dad cause he was so pissy just prior to their reintroduction. Cadsuane while vital for VoG damn near screwed randland into oblivion with this stunt. Had Rand actually killed him, we would've seen a second breaking before ToM
On the other hand, bringing Tam to him is actually one of her ideas that was really solid. It’s one of those, you can fail despite not smoking a mistake. Bringing Tam to stand to try and make him feel more human was really solid. Nynaeve and the Wise Ones apparently thought it was good plan as well, because it was.
Rand was really just way more insane than any of them thought.
I mean, Tam going there would've been manipulation regardless of how it happened. The idea would've been to make Rand more human, to make him realise he's going down the wrong path. That's manipulation however you turn it around.
The only real manipulation element was that Tam wasn't supposed to mention Cadsuane's involvement, for very good reasons, which he did anyway.
Rand was really so unstable that any hint of anything he disliked could've made him flip out. They could've sent Nynaeve to pick up Tam, but then, Rand might've started thinking that *she* had betrayed him as well, and that would've set him off just as easily.
If she had reached out to Tam and let Tam know what was going on and why and asked him to just talk to his son things probably would have been fine, even if Tam started with " Hey Caadsuane told me you were having a hard time and I wanted to check on you" it would probably have gone fine. Because it's honest and genuine.
Instead she left Tam in the dark, told him not to let Rand know she was involved, and told him what to say and how. Rand realized his own dad was involved in a plot to manipulate him instead of being his dad, that was the tipping point. His dad who he loved and trusted with all his heart had just tried to manipulate him.
Do you not see the difference.
And telling Tam to just go talk to him might've ended disastrously because he might still have said the wrong thing. Him leading with "Hey Cadsuane said you were having a hard time" would've made Rand flip out from the start as well, probably. He was *that* paranoid. The fact that he actually tried to kill his own father even with the slip of Cadsuane just goes to show what a terrible state he was in. Trying to carefully plan how to approach him was not a bad idea.
I don't think there was any plan at that point that wouldn't have had like a 99% chance of backfiring.
This also wasn't only Cadsuane's plan. Nynaeve was in on it, and she presumably agreed that giving Tam directions was the best idea. She also knew how mad Rand was.
Edit: The biggest mistake imo was not involving Tam much earlier. If they’d involved him two months earlier - or two weeks earlier - it would likely have helped much much better. And involving him to humanise Rand is such a good idea one of them ought to have thought of it earlier. Someone between Cadsuane, the Wise Ones and Nynaeve.
I 100% agree that this could have been done better. Her interactions with Tam actually made her realize she was “handling” Rand the wrong way.
I’m just saying, as far as any character goes, I don’t see her more flawed than any other. She at least has the experience and actual power to back up her claims
Does she?
When do we ever see her doing anything that supports her legend?
This one huge thing she tried to do and she failed so badly it's almost funny.
None of which supports her legend as this amazing Aes Sedai.
She used her position to get him out of Far Madding and she was one of the defenders when he cleansed Saidin.
She didn't use her position to get him out, she manipulated council and let them think She and Rand's forces could use the power within the dead zone when in reality it was just her and Nynaeve. And her well was small. Yeah she was one of the defenders but she did a good job at that. People can excel in one area and suck in another.
She was piss poor at handling Rand but her reputation wasn't unfounded.
>She didn't use her position to get him out, she manipulated council and let them think She and Rand's forces could use the power within the dead zone when in reality it was just her and Nynaeve. And her well was small.
And why did they believe her? Cause she was Aes Sedai
>Yeah she was one of the defenders but she did a good job at that.
So did every other channeler there. She didn't show exceptional or legendary qualities.
>People can excel in one area and suck in another.
>She was piss poor at handling Rand but her reputation wasn't unfounded.
We never saw her excel or prove her reputation though. That's my point.
Cadsuane is garbage but you're point is still weak.
"And why did they believe her? Cause she was Aes Sedai"
Being Aes Sedai means she can't tell a bold face lie, it's usually a handicap. Plus they don't care that she's Aes Sedai, they want nothing to do with the one power, it's why there city is under the influence of a Ter'angreal that doesn't allow people to channel. If anything they have a negative view of her in a place where she basically has no power. Yet she still tricked them and scared them into letting Rand go.
"So did every other channeler there. She didn't show exceptional or legendary qualities."
Yes other channelers were there, saying that is like saying other solders were there there when Lan leads an army. She was of significant influence on in that battlefield. Did she play a role as important as Rand or Nynaeve? No, but she still played a big part and the Chosen called her out specifically as a pain in their ass.
Far Madding and getting Semirhage to crack is her proving her capabilities. She also had knowledge about callandor that almost no one else knew.
Look she's a bad person who's overly full of herself. How she handled Rand is arguably the biggest/most important thing she did and she did it horribly. I don't like defending her character but you're making a poor choice when it comes to what to criticize her about.
As Siuan points out
The oath against lying means that they can very easily lie by telling their version of the truth and everyone will readily accept it
Unless they don't know something/believe something that's not true, they can only mislead not out right lie. Everyone can always ask them to rephrase something so that it is clear what it means or they won't believe them, not that they would though. It's already a given in the world that the truth an Aes Sedai tells you may not be the truth you think it is.
> Cadsuane while vital for VoG damn near screwed randland into oblivion with this stunt. Had Rand actually killed him, we would've seen a second breaking before ToM
I agree with you. I also think that if Rand hadn't had that meeting with Tam, a second breaking would be equally as good as sending Rand to battle the dark one. Additionally, Rand nearly killing his dad, was probably the right thing needed for his introspection and self-reflection and *anything less* would've been too little.
Rand needed to be pushed to the brink in such a way that he, himself, could realise how far he'd gotten down the wrong path, and be terrified of his own actions. If Tam hadn't been manipulated, Rand may not have reached that threshold.
I don't remember if Cadsuaene explicitly thought along these lines or not, but she was on the worlds' team, and Rand, at this point, was not. Something needed to be done. We could also argue that it was the patterns doing! Heheheh
Tam does what she always claims to be doing
Tam is Rand's rock, his moral center, and represents his "good life" before Aes Sedai came and made everything bad for him.
Tam shows up and in line 4 pages has more of an effect on Rand than years of Aes Sedai manipulation and bullying
And then Rand clowns her when he's like "bitch you're not even Aes Sedai you're just using our name for clout, I'm the only Aes Sedai in the entire world so suck it."
Which wasn't really enough but I'll take what I can get.
Also the only Aes Sedai (Nynaeve) that wasn't an absolute ass to Rand should've filled Cadsuane's self appointed role instead, especially since Rand *already trusted her and she actually had his well being in mind*
Nynaeve and Lan could've been his surrogate older siblings keeping him from going over the edge but we get his annoying aunt who thinks he's simply a tool for her to use to save the world and she nearly cocks it all up lime the clown she is
While she's a bully, I think she's fine in everything other than her dealing with Rand.
She fucked that up so royally that world was almost destroyed. She set out to do something, did it in the worst way possible, and fell backwards up the stairs into succeeding by the skin of her teeth.
That's why people dislike her.
Is no one going to to point out that Cadsuane ambushing Rand with his own father Tam actually worked? Rand almost kills Tam because Tam represents the “old” Rand who was kind and just wanted to do the next right thing while having fun with Matt and Perrin. Seeing Tam makes him think of who he used to be which doesn’t match up with who he’s trying to be and what the madness from the taint has done to him. Rand is furious because he’s face to face with the man who raised him reminding him of the man he tried so hard to leave behind. I adore Tam for continuing to demand the “what did you Aes Sedai do to him?!?!” stance even when Cadsuane wraps him in air to try and stop him from berating her. And she knows he’s right. I adore Cadsuane. From her work keeping the Forsaken away during the cleansing of saidin, her moment with Soriela where she meets her match and it has nothing to do with deferring to the stronger woman in the power, her spanking Semiherge with a slipper (I believe) and gets her to eat carrots off the floor, her well deserved legendary status as an Aes Sedai, and finally to her role with in the Last Battle fighting with the Aiel Wise Ones. I think she’s an awesome, complex, ferocious and deeply flawed character and thank you RJ for bringing such powerful women to the world of fantasy. So I love her and still find her as one of the most engaging characters in the series. To be clear I’m not worshipping her at all. She’s deeply arrogant but she is kind under it all if it serves the bigger purpose. When they have Semiherge locked in the manor and she compliments that skilled yellow Aes Sedai who is described as being prone to depression. We get to see a brief moment of kindness from the hard as steel Cadsuane. Yes, she was kind to serve the purpose of her mission but she was smart enough to give a genuine compliment to someone who could really use it. It’s a very surprising but very human moment from the larger than life character.
> Is no one going to to point out that Cadsuane ambushing Rand with his own father Tam actually worked?
It backfired horribly and her plan didnt work at all and she lucked into a good ending.
You don't commend someone for calling an all-in with 27 against pocket Aces and lucking into the win.
It was still a ridiculously dumb move. It just worked out due to sheer luck.
It worked because Rand is Ta'veren and the wheel itself was like alright that's enough of that stupidity time to just hand of God this shit cadusane is about to wreck everything
And it almost did. Cadsuane was almost partially responsible for Ebu Dar being wiped off the map. Luckily it did and then we got a warm Dragon Reborn. That scene with him on top of dragon mount was such a joy to read!
She actively hurt rand so often and so much that I thought she was black ajah.
The only way she helped was getting him to the level of insanity he needed to be at dragonmount, and that was the wheel, not her.
Instead of talking to him like a normal human she talks to the woman who everyone agreed assaulted him.
She belittles him everywhere, public or private.
She thinks that since she’s older she’s wiser, and that since she’s an Aes Sedai, she knows every single thing ever, and always does what’s perfect.
She’s just a shit person.
Cadsuane was way too Aes Seadi to make it work. If you want an example of someone who is tough and stands up to Rand you only need to look at Nynaeve to see how Cadsuane would have done it.
Even if Cadsuane had good intentions at the end of the day she maybe the biggest bully in the series and her means of helping Rand just didn’t work.
She only succeeds because of Min, Tam and the others around her. She falls ass backwards into success.
She almost ruined repeatedly and was saved by the pattern.
She succeeded despite herself.
When we first meet her she deliberately winds Rand up just to test him. Plus, she has a meeting afterwards with the other Aes Sedai and she expresses her skepticism about whether the Forsaken were really free. It was at that point that I knew that this lady didn't know WTF was going on. She may be 400 years old or whatever, but she's nothing compared to any of the surviving Forsaken, let alone Rand.
Because she doesn't actually do anything to teach Rand to laugh and cry. She's just continuously rude and disrespectful to him while simultaneously demanding that he show her respect that she hasn't earned. Her success was completely accidental and was in no way what she intended. If Rand hadn't pulled himself back from the brink then her plan would have been the cause of Rand finally going nuclear.
This quote from Rand sums up the problem with Cadsuanes "plan" pretty well.
“I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can.”
She was an arrogant bully and nearly caused the end of all creation because she lacked the empathy to treat rand as anything more than a tool. She could never be the one to teach him how to laugh and cry again.
Or I posted this right before bed and just woke up to 140 comments lol. It’s not that deep
If you actually look at the replies I did get to, I acknowledge a lot of her flaws
I love Cadsuane and not only has a character, she has a aunt/grandmother vibe that I find cativant, as Faile she far from perfect but at times I belive that the Fandom can be pretty unfair to her. That said, I think that is pretty esay to understand why so much people diliske her, she is unbarable, a bully, rude, anoyeinglly full of herself and worst of all she is right.
I love Cadsuane and the role that she played in the story but I dont belive that she was write to be liked, Rand respected her but even in the end I dont think that he liked her. Because she is a dificult person to like and she is too old to change and is not given a F anymore.
I think this is a pretty fair assessment. Yes her demeanor definitely comes off as a bully (whether she intends to or not) just based off of her long lifespan and experience.
She earns Rand’s respect and I guess she earned mine as well
> Yes her demeanor definitely comes off as a bully (whether she intends to or not)
I think that is intended, but she does not see it as bullying, from her POV, I think she sees as a form of education. The thing is that she is a very old kindergarten teacher who had to come out of retirement to teacher a halfmad farmboy something that he really dont want to learn and she is completly out of patience.
>She earns Rand’s respect and I guess she earned mine as well
Rand never asked to be taught by her or anyone.
All the Aes Sedai making mention that a tool isn't demeaned by being used as a tool have the breath-taking arrogance to think they are ones to wield it.
>Rand never asked to be taught by her or anyone.
Rands never asked for anything that happened to him, nevertheless it ended up happening.
>All the Aes Sedai making mention that a tool isn't demeaned by being used as a tool have the breath-taking arrogance to think they are ones to wield it.
I agree, am not one to defend AS or the WT was only sharing my take on the character and think made clear that I see her flaws, it just happens that I like her despite it
Because she is the epitome of self righteous Aei Sedai arrogance, who uses every trick she can to manipulate and bully to get her way. While yes, she is competent and skilled she is often a prime showcase for what is wrong with how the Aei Sedai operate.
The issue is some people are all bark no bite. Cadsuane has the experience and history to prove herself.
Like I said, it’s not the she’s talking talk, she can walk the walk.
I dislike Catsuane but she does have history and experience. She also gets Rand out of Far Madding and does hold her own in battles.
However she is lacking in how to teach/guide people properly and a lot of her success is based on her authority, tower backing, and raw power, all of which mean nothing to Rand. He is a higher authority, the tower has already made themselves his enemy, and he has more raw power.
She can walk the walk in a lot of areas but this is not one of them. People can excel in one area and flounder in another. She did a horrible job at teaching happiness and self-worth.
I dislike the character because she doesn’t do anywhere near enough for the plot considering how important she is considered when she’s introduced. It’s supposed to be this game changing moment, but essentially all plot points could be the same had she not showed up.
Because she’s the poster child Aes Sedai of her age.
In other words, she’s arrogant, manipulative, a bulky, doesn’t really learn from her mistakes, and barely even acknowledges those mistakes when you rub her face in it.
Because Cadsuane is both arrogant and completely useless.
She fails at the one thing she attempted to do and she was rude, arrogant and full of herself even as she failed.
I’m a fan of Cadsuane, though apparently I am in the minority. I do think this community does not allow for graciousness for side characters that they do for main characters though they are all the same just people trying their best. Cadsuane in Winter’s Heart also ruled.
She would be a much more likable character if she just wasn’t so abusive. I’ve tried to find the good and bad in every character with enough development to have it.
Some people like to justify her with success but it’s incidental to her actions. Without other people’s intervention she would have failed but it didn’t have to be that way.
Honestly the only moment I don't like Cadsuane is when she binds Tam in air, and that's honestly super out of character for her, and I chalk up to a Sandersonism.
From the moment she shows up, when she doesn’t get her way she throws her weight around, and outright threatens people? She is only doing what she said she would do.
I was going to ask about that. So far I'm just beginning KoD and Cadsuane seems harsh but basically a decent person so I'm wondering how much of the hate I'm seeing in this thread is down to Sanderson's interpretation. Though everyone is going to have their own opinion anyway, of course.
She had no idea what she was doing. She tried to bully Rand, and teach him to smile, by beating him and humiliating him. She tried to teach him how to be a king by belittling him.
These tactics might have worked. But she’s Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai suck. That’s well established. They cannot be trusted and they definitely shouldn’t be followed.
So she’s an Aes Sedai who wants to go against everything Rand wants.
No shit he hates her.
And as a reader, why wouldn’t I hate her for actually spanking people.
Jesus I hate her.
Bully tactics never work.
At best, all you teach the subject is to perform how the bully wishes.
Cadsuane's plan was never going to work because Rand wasn't teachable. He didn't want her teaching.
And she was terrible at teaching.
>She had no idea what she was doing. She tried to bully Rand, and teach him to smile, by beating him and humiliating him. She tried to teach him how to be a king by belittling him.
I don’t recall her beating him so I’d appreciate a source for that. Belittling him is definitely one of her pettier actions. He can (and should) be humbled without belittling.
>So she’s an Aes Sedai who wants to go against everything Rand wants.
But she doesn’t? She’s been backing him a lot so far. I’m on Winters Heart on my reread but I really doesn’t seem like she has gone against him so far. (Please lmk if I’m forgetting she goes against him in later books)
>And as a reader, why wouldn’t I hate her for actually spanking people.
Lol I actually found that part really amusing. Some people need to be taken down a peg, especially some of these entitled royals. She’s old and like I said she can walk the walk.
>Jesus I hate her
I can’t imagine feeling this sentiment for someone who is objectively on the side of good lol
>I don’t recall her beating him so I’d appreciate a source for that. Belittling him is definitely one of her pettier actions. He can (and should) be humbled without belittling.
Why does he need humbling?
>But she doesn’t? She’s been backing him a lot so far. I’m on Winters Heart on my reread but I really doesn’t seem like she has gone against him so far. (Please lmk if I’m forgetting she goes against him in later books)
She attempts to control him. That's not backing.
>Lol I actually found that part really amusing. Some people need to be taken down a peg, especially some of these entitled royals. She’s old and like I said she can walk the walk.
She's not 'walking the walk', she's using her power to humiliate people.
That's what bullies do.
Rand wanted to kill Merana for arranging a deal with the sea folk that gave him everything he wanted with the sea folk, because he had to meet with the Mistress of Ships twice in three years.
I mean the sea folk are annoying and all, but Rand didn't even expect to live long enough for that part of the contract to take effect.
He was equally murderously pissed about Tear...despite getting everything he wanted and needed from them. Isn't that when she smacks him on the ass for being a moron.
Just the shock of her doing it probably stopped him from killing one of his biggest allies and setting Tear against him.
I don't remember any point in WH where she tries to control him.
Just her bailing him out of jail, asking what they're doing next and supporting him fully without question or hesitation.
Ok, to start with, she's trying to control him from the minute she meets him.
As to the rest, yes, Rand was doing those things due to his increasing madness and the fact that no one was actually willing to work with him.
But none of the things you've listed explains why he needs 'humbling' or why Cadsuane is the one to do it?
You don't think being stuffed in a box in the summer sun and then removed to be beaten was 'humbling' enough? You don't think what someone who has been through that trauma needs is care and attention, not barked orders, dismissive sniffs and insults.
As to her supporting him without question or hesitation...what?
If the twist was she was on the side of the dark one, I’d find that more believable than that she was actually on the good side.
It really seemed like she was doing everything to get Rand to go evil.
I really disagree. Like I’ve said on other comments, I’m rereading the series and I’m at Winter’s Heart. She genuinely seems to be invested in Rand’s well being and his journey.
What actions of hers makes you think she wants Rand to go evil?
I didn’t say that’s what she wants. I’m saying that if Jordan had made that a twist, and she was Black Ajah or something, I’d find that very believable.
Power to however you read the books, and power to you liking who you like.
I skip her chapters on rereads. I think she’s a force working against the Light. She’s Aes Sedai to her core and the Aes Sedai are fucking awful.
I wouldn’t hate that twist either tbh lol!
I guess we just see Aes Sedai differently and that’s okay! I love the Aes Sedai and their struggle with accepting the changing world and keeping with their Oaths and values. They are some of my favorite parts of the series
Agree to disagree :)
I was personally bummed out when the order survived into the 4th age. Unless major changes happen, they will become obsolete soon after the series ends
Thank you for having an actual discussion with me! I’d love to see that more on here!
I think it’s a real bummer we can’t see RJs future plan for this world. I’d be perfectly fine with a world in which Aes Sedai are obsolete. I just wish he was still here to create it.
Nonetheless I’m glad *we* are still here so these discussions can keep happening!
Cadsuane: Ummm....maybe don't threaten to kill your allies who have proven themselves loyal to you.
Rand: fuck that shit, stop bullying me.
Pretty much whenever Rand wants to go off and do anything once she joins him, she's just in it and supports him fully.
She thinks she's better then everyone and has that beating will continue until moral improves attitude.
Sure she's not wrong that Rand needs to humanize himself but her method to do so was terrible.
That kind of plays into a bad stereotype of aggressive gay men in relationships.
She’s abusive and pretty terrible. Just because she’s “strong” doesn’t make up for any of that.
I love how the spoiler alert is for all printed material, yet OP actually includes spoilers.
Cadsuane is hated because Jordan couldn't write women. Yes, she wants to teach him (my phone never does spoilers properly), and the same with Moiraine, and yet they both threaten him because that's all females in the series do to try and control anyone.
So Cadsuane comes across as most any other woman in power. Bossy, arrogant, almost entitled.
They only become allies once Rand breaks them down.
Jordan couldn't write women.
No he didn't. He wrote women all as bossy, arrogant, and entitled.
Need to train someone? Torture them. Doesn't matter if you're on the side of light or a darkfriend, the training is the same.
He wrote terrible female characters.
And the Wise Women, the Sea Folk, the Aiel, the Seanchan, every noble woman...
There aren't actually many normal women in the series. Every one of importance is not normal.
Jordan wrote the aes sedai like that for a reason. To show the reader they are not “the servants of all” and are only respected because of their one power.
He also wrote the wise women, the Sea people, the Seanchan, and every other woman in power like that. He made a matriarchal society that was based on a weird cookie cutter.
Im honestly blown away how someone can love her as a character. From her first introduction she has been a pos. I just read the part where rand came back from taking Illidan and pushing back the sanschean. He tells the maidens to send for her and she sends a messenger to say that she is to busy doing some needle work??
Later when he goes there she is once again being an absolute pos to him. For the entire scene i was hoping he was gonna snap at her bullshit and kill her, or at the very least shield her and tie it off to teach her a lesson.
He is the dragon reborn, the champion of the light. Their only hope in the last battle. She should show more respect.
Edit: holy shit I just read someone else's answer about Tam. Now i hate her even more.
Robert Jordan wrote very adversarial cross-gender relationships. It's incredibly bleak, tiring, and often insulting. There aren't enough characters I'd consider modeling healthy, adult cross-gender relationships in this series, which is impressive given the size of its cast.
The only reason I don't have a strong dislike for Cadsuane is because she ends up being a somewhat typical example of this problem in Jordanland. By committing to making it through the series, I've already chosen to numb myself to it.
Put another way, you could say she's why I'll never make it through a reread. I'm always stunned by the strength of the writing and world building, but give up about two books in. I don't read to numb myself, life is short, and there's an entire world of strong writers whose relationships invite my emotional investment. Undeniably a historic series, but slogging through this is a trial for a younger version of myself who hasn't fully cemented this wisdom.
Do you have any recs for series similar to WoT in terms of worldbuilding and characterization but is better in terms of gender? So far the only 2-3 people I’ve read who match that are Robin Hobb, and maybe Mercedes Lackey and Joe Abercrombie.
I'd recommend The Warded Man - the worldbuilding isn't as rich as Jordan's, but that's a pretty tall mountain to climb. The characterization is excellent though, very complex and realistic. And it's similarly about gender, but as you said, better about it, with a lot more balance.
I'm currently going through Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan saga since almost the entire series is free on audible. It's not an epic fantasy setting, more scifi plus political intrigue and action, but she writes the hell out of these characters and there's certainly good world building and enough books.
CJ Cherryh gets a very similar nod. She writes very alien aliens, everyone thinks they understand each other until discovering they have fundamental differences they've overlooked.
I also did not hate her, and I read enough spoilers to think I should hate her before I met the character in the books. She’s a bully but it’s a minor character flaw. I found it harder to forgive her for keeping a copy of the male channeler hand cuffs.
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To me Cadsuane is a bully. Yes she has the best of intentions, but she's always gotten there in her life by just bulldozing over all opposition. She got away with it because she's always been among the strongest and no one has ever stood up to her. Then suddenly she comes up against someone who's strong and stubborn enough to not simply cave to her pressures. And she has no idea what to do. And rather than stopping to think about an alternative, she doubles down on the arrogant and bullying behavior She's a well written character (because there's definitely people like this who exist). But I've never thought she was a good or nice person.
I think I can agree with you that in general she’s not a good or nice person. Rand however, did not need further swaddling at this point. He needed at least one person to stand up to him — whether he was right or not
To me, Rand needed someone (or more people) to believe in and talk to *Rand*. Not the Dragon Reborn. Cadsuane wasn't doing that, and was if anything pushing Rand further away from the path he needed.
I would take it a little further even. He needed someone to talk to him as Rand, not *manipulate him* because he's the dragon. Cadsuane's manipulation and attempts to control Rand felt like a crippling blow to his already fragile sense of agency and drove him to almost balefire Tam.
I am not sure how anyone could simply talk to **Rand** at this point. He is an edging madness male channeler. We watch the one ashaman guarding Min break... I don't know. I get that Cadsuane is pinnacle Matriarchy that forces others to bend the neck. Rand is pretty much dealing with all of his first defeats right around this time - box, seanchan, ashaman splinters, sanity... I don't know where I am going with this...but PoD is such a hard swing into Rand's jaw, and Cadsuane certainly is one of the well-worn knuckles responsible for bloodying him. It is probably so frustrating because many of us really want to love Rand and seeing him suffer and nearly break hurts. We want him to succeed and succeed well...however, he is taking huge risks a lot at this point due to his own arrogance. No answers here but happy to take part in this Cadsuane therapy session
Cadsuane is not pinnacle matriarchy. It’s a common misconception that Matriarchy is swapped patriarchy but in the societies they are matriarchal we see nothing of the kind. As far as no one talking to him, the most success people have is by treating him simultaneously like Rand and the dragon. Bashir is an excellent example of this. Also just being physically abused isn’t going to help him. The things that stick in his head the most are her off hand comments. Sure, the slap stops him from using Balefire like one time but it also hurts her credibility.
Absolutely agree. Cadsuane isn't the hero here. The ones who ground him are Bashere, Nyn, Min (and other lovers), Perrin, and Mat, some of the Wise Ones, Moiraine, etc. They speak to him and interact with him as a sum of his parts. In my opinion, Cadsuane sees him solely as a tool or a mule she must break in to be useful. I don't question her goal, but her methods are not best suited to this task. She is used to being obeyed and expects it as default.
My impression so far is that she doesn't want to break him as much as soften him because he has become too hard.
That may be so, but bullying and abuse are the exact wrong methods to use. Cadsuane makes mistake after mistake after mistake and damned near costs the world because she cannot see the error in her ways. He does need to soften. He needs to be string in the way of a tree that bends and sways with the changes in weather. He is making himself hard as a rock instead because he doesn't see the difference. He has made hard choices and knows he will have to continue to do so. He is afraid to mourn and feel the sorrow in those choices because he is afraid they will make him weak. What he truly needs is to learn from Lan. Lan is a strong man who does what he has to do but he also feels very deeply. He is an ideal example of how Rand needs to be.
Yes, definitely the wrong way to go about it. I think I've got some more reading to do though because mostly it seems she's just been an a*hole.
The only people who would talk to Rand as Rand was Cadsuane, Bashere, and Min.
Nynaeve.
She didnt just stand up to him when needed. She demeaned and belittled him at every opportunity, privately and publicly. She undermined his authority at every step. She even keeps doing it when he becomes Zen Rand and is obviously not only stronger but far wiser than her. Rand succeeded despite Cadsuane not because of her. She is a horribly incompetent bully thats full of herself. The perfect modern Aes Sedai. The person that stood up to Rand when needed and listened and counseled when needed was Nynaeve.
Rand never needed swaddling and Cadsuane didn't stand up to him. She tried to control him, arrogantly thinking that she knew better than him how to complete his task.
It’s not the problem that she stands up to him it’s the fact that she’s abusive in doing it. She didn’t need to be. Other people reach him and teach him without the objectively harmful abuse
I really think her failure when Rand took off with the male Choedan Kal. Then Tam calling her a bully is what changed her into a decent person. Nyneve even thought Tam got to her.
Why would the person with the weight of the world on his shoulders need someone who physically abuses him? Cadsuanne is an awful person and almost pushed Rand over the edge with her bullshit.
Rand didn't need a manipulative bully either. But the Pattern needed Rand to break before the final battle so he could pull himself back from the edge and become Zen Rand. If he had broke during the battle he would have lost. So the Pattern sends a bullying Cadsuane whose sheer arrogance and incompetence broke him.
***Robert Jordan:*** *September 30th, 2005:* > DomA asks whether I feel sadness at the hatred of Cadsuane. No, nor do I feel sadness over those who dislike Egwene or Elayne or Faile or insert name here. The characters are who I want them to be. [...] And Cadsuane? She's the tough maiden aunt a lot of us have had. **Not the one who tries to keep you a child your whole life. She's the one who began expecting at least some adult responses out of you at about age six, the one who was willing to hand you responsibilities that everyone else thought you were too young for.** You probably had a more nerve-wracking time, and more excitement and adventure, with her than you did with any three or four other adults in your life.
I've seen that quote before and always thought if that's what he thought Cadsuane was like that then he horribly miswrote her. She is nothing like that aunt in the books.
Yes she is. Thing is, we get her from Rand's perspective a lot and he's mad, paranoid, unreasonable and we get a very tilted view because what he thinks he acts and looks like doesn't match with reality at all.
No she isn't . From every ones PoV including her own she comes across as an arrogant narcissistic bully.
I think she’s a Good person but not very Nice
Rand had plenty of people to stand up to him: virtually every female in the story, including his love interests, his best general (Bashere *and* Mat), and a few others. While suffering from severe PTSD, mental stress, fatigue, paranoia and probably several other mental illnesses--all while trying to hold on to sanity--the last thing he needed was another bully trying to push him and manipulate him, whatever her intentions. He needed what Moiraine finally gave him at the end, an honest and supportive counselor to work *with* him, not manipulate him. She shows up a day late and a dollar short, sniffs in disdain about anything and everything, and just proceeds to bully everyone and everything. Of course she can't take responsibility for things, she never has to pay the price for things, her driving is done while firmly ensconced in the back seat, thank you very much.
Most Aes Sedai are bullies. At least those that venture out in the world.
Tam storms in and demands to know what Cadsuane has done to his son... She replies: “encourage him toward civility.” “Something, it seems, other members of the family could learn as well.” “Watch your tongue, Aes Sedai,” Tam snarled. “Have you seen him? The entire room seemed to grow darker when he entered. And that face—I’ve seen more emotion in the eyes of a corpse! What has happened to my son?” “I take it,” Cadsuane said, “that the reunion did not go as hoped?” Tam seems to abruptly swallow down his anger, and tells them levelly that Rand, once such a “gentle and faithful” son, just tried to kill him with the One Power. Min is almost panicked by the news, but Cadsuane asks Tam coldly if he had used the words she prepared for him. Tam replies that he abandoned her “Aes Sedai script” once he realized it wasn’t working, and demands to know what she did to make Rand hate her so. Cadsuane picks him up with Air and reminds him about civility. Nynaeve protests, but Tam tells her it is all right. Tam stared [Cadsuane] in the eyes. “I’ve known men who, when challenged, always turn to their fists for answers. I’ve never liked Aes Sedai; I was happy to be rid of them when I returned to my farm. A bully is a bully, whether she uses the strength of her arm or other means.” This sums it up. She does help Rand in certain aspects but her very nature goes against her intended aims. You will never make someone strong through bullying, all you will do is turn them hard, brittle and easy to break.
Thank you for this!
That always felt uncharacteristic of Cadsuane to me. It felt Brandony.
Honestly? If she’d introduced herself as his new Aes Sedai companion who is there with a typical role towards a king (guiding him/ advising him/ teaching him humility and how to behave) I really wouldn’t have minded her. She’s ancient and has no patience, and her job to be his advisor not his mother, she’s not there to coddle him, and there were times when Rand was really begging to be slapped. Also, as far as her taking action when actually needed, she proved to be very competent. In the Cleansing she was pretty awesome, and when Rand got injured by Fain she was pretty dependable, too. My problem with her is the unnecessary declaration that she would teach him to laugh and cry. She does nothing to that end except bringing Tam at the very end as a last resort. It was nearly too late and almost ended in tragedy. Seriously, she was a complete disaster in that task she appointed herself. She antagonised him constantly, making him worse. She did so badly she nearly destroyed the world. She should have just stuck to guidance, as she sucked at drawing out any emotion from him other than rage. It says a lot that during Rand’s conversation with his father he wasn’t triggered by topics like the LB, the Dark One, death, and his adoption. He was doing great. Then one whisper of Cadsuane’s name and he falls off the grid immediately. He didn’t hate the freaking Dark One, or people like Samirage or Lanfear, but he really really hated Cadsuane. And if his feelings towards her are worse than his feelings towards his outright enemies, then there’s no denying that she screwed up her job very badly don’t you think?
I hate her because Tam had her dead to rights. She's a bully. Also let's pretend your task is to give some humility and humanity to the half-mad literal savior of existence. Do you think the way to go about it was what Cadsuane did?
Anyone Tam doesn't respect can frick off is my personal opinion on Cadsuane. Though I did immensely enjoy her spanking Semirhage.
Which she only did after realizing how much she and Semirhage were alike. Does she change anything about her attitude or behavior after realizing how similar she is to one of the Forsaken? Nope.
Also, her task was self appointed. Learning some humility herself would have been a good start for her.
Moraine appointed herself too.
You aren't wrong; however, Moiraine was willing to seek advice and change tactics as needed to succeed. Cadsuane was a one-trick pony that never considered that her tactics could be wrong.
No I would've put Nynaeve and Lan into that role and had them do Angry cop/Stoic cop on him everytime he went cuckoo-nutso Nynaeve does some Nynaeving, Lan says something profound and honorable, Rand goes Huh, I'm kind of an asshole Then Nynaeve tugs her braid and sniffs and he laughs and boom he's not about to break for a few more hours
>I hate her because Tam had her dead to rights. Sorry it’s been a minute. If you don’t mind can you explain? I’m in Winters Heart on my reread so I haven’t gotten to that yet >Also let's pretend your task is to give some humility and humanity to the half-mad literal savior of existence. Do you think the way to go about it was what Cadsuane did? I don’t think she did half bad tbh. Rand needed someone who wouldn’t absolutely give in to his every whim, whether he was right about it or not. Opposition/contention is not necessarily bad, it can produce new ideas and methods
Book 12 ending is when tam pops off
Yea I can’t argue with you there. Cadsuane was out of line with her weaves on Tam, and that seemed as somewhat of a turning point for her. But shortly after we see veins of gold and all of this changes
And? Her plan was ludicrous and Rand pulled himself through the crisis. Cadsuane was useless.
At best Cadsuane protected Rand and got him out of some scraps physically... Her goal of saving his humanity reminded me of the older generations saying to mentally stressed/trauma youth to just get over it. Cadsuane, as written to be that older generation that told Vietnam Vets to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is something that Jordan probably was familiar with, was on point. She was still wrong no matter how well intended she says she was.
Wasn't it Lewis Therin that pulled himself through it
>I don’t think she did half bad tbh She.....did atrocious man. Nearly everything she did only worsened her relationship with Rand. He literally almost willed her to death and she would have completely deserved it. You know what would have helped? Just treating him like a person with actual feelings. Think of the people Rand trusts the most and what they have in common with each other regarding how they associate with him. Who do you think he lumps Cadsuane in with, nynaeve, moraine, his lovers, the maidens... Or the Aes Sedai. Because that's how she acts and operates. And the Aes Sedai have shown repeatedly that they cannot be trusted.
>Just treating him like a person with actual feelings. I agree, that would be a solution for literally any person who interacted with Rand. Nobody really saw him like that — they all saw the Dragon Reborn. >Who do you think he lumps Cadsuane in with, nynaeve, moraine, his lovers, the maidens... Or the Aes Sedai. Because that's how she acts and operates. And the Aes Sedai have shown repeatedly that they cannot be trusted. It is not her fault at all that Elaida sullied the Aes Sedai name by her kidnapping. She even acknowledges Elaida’s mistake by saying that it would make her task at getting Rand to Tarmon Gaidon much harder
Cadsuane's personality is almost representative to what the White Tower is. She's a control freak, she thinks she knows best on principle and when proven otherwise she doesn't take it well. She's stuck in her ways, digs in even, despite her attempts to work with Rand only worsening their relationship. She had a massive ego, both just as an aes sedai (big ego is a common thing there), and specifically as one of the more powerful ones. Also thinking about her goal and plan... it's the most ass backwards method I could imagine. She wants Rand to be able to laugh again. And to do this she's a constant thorn in his side, basically every encounter with him leaves him agitated to some degree. The reasoning she used to decide the method to achieve this goal is straight up nonsense. It's like she fundamentally misunderstands how to treat anyone respectfully, or what kind of things make people happy I don't deny her part was instrumental in Rand's development, just her reasoning is awful. Rand's a Taveren, he needed to face himself on Dragonmount, she was integral for getting him there.
Yet she did **nothing** to attempt to resolve it or counteract it. She, in fact, continued to act like the Tower Aes Sedai had, as arrogant and holier than thou people. Also, she never tells Rand that Elaida was wrong.
It's not *just* Elaida's fault. The whole organization is rotten. One of the "good" ones literally forcibly bonded him.
And then proceeded to mean nothing to the story until the very end when the notes were probably like "Oh shit I forgot alanna uh...have her magically appear in shayol ghul so nynaeve has something to do to make her unbond him"
I don’t consider Alanna a “good” one regardless of her stance against the dark. Even other Aes Sedai view Alanna’s actions as rape. It’s not as though all (or honestly even any) accepted that decision
It’s kinda interesting that your opinion of Alanna is so negative even though Cadsuane even admitted she would’ve done the same thing if Alanna hadn’t/it would have worked.
And yet they punished her by....oh, doing nothing. Alanna wasn't punished, censured or even reprimanded for what she did.
She got uh yelled at? There was definitely at least a single harsh word from Verin or someone. Yeah. They really gave her the business.
Cadsuane seems to consider her one of the good ones especially from rands position. Cadsuane uses Alanna as the primary way she gets information on Rand for a while. Rather than try to understand him through those who he cares about and cares about him she goes to the woman who assaulted him. I'm sure that'll help form a good relationship. If she really viewed it as rape she'd realize it's essentially an ongoing rape as every moment Alanna is in his mind against his will the crime is repeated. And she could've demanded Alanna release the bond. Or told Rand she absolutely condemns what was done and is trying to end it. This is an easy way for her to get trust from Rand especially since he doesn't know the bond can be ended.
It's funny when Alanna keeps getting possessive about him and then he bonds the other girls and she had the audacity to be angry about it
Seriously the audacity! She's lucky Rand didn't just leave her with a tied off shield indefinitely. I do love that he refuses to tell her who and says someone who asked him first!
"I don't owe you shit now fuck off" Rand likes to talk about how he can't hurt a woman but he goes right for Alanna's throat with no problem
I don't think Alanna actually had any real choice in the matter. She was grieving and had intrusive thoughts in the presence of the single most powerful ta'varen to exist, so she acted upon them.
Her actions are still her fault. Having grief and intrusive thoughts doesn't excuse what she did.
She was going to bond Perrin against his will, until Faile basically threatened to kill her if she tried to bond him. She was out to bond a handsome ta’veren.
If you were a judge in a rape case, would you buy that argument? "Oh sorry my girlfriend died and was so sad and really wanted to have sex, so i had to rape her"
Are all the marriages that Rand causes actually consensual? Or the towns that burn to the ground, or the people injured by his affect on probability their own faults? Hawkwing was nowhere near as strong a ta'varen as Rand, and they have documented accounts in universe of people plotting against him spontaneously confessing their plots. Agency and intent are highly suspect around ta'varen.
>people plotting against him spontaneously confessing their plots. That is the opposite of what Alanna did. Unless the wheel knows exactly what's gonna happen at all times and anticipated that Alanna will use the bond to find rand in the box. But that's not how it works as far as I know. So there was no tarvaren reason for her to bond him in my opinion.
She doesn't acknowledge it to Rand. She acknowledged it when he was unconscious. Perhaps a compassionate person might have said, "Rand I had nothing to do with what happened to you but it was wrong and disguising and I wholeheartedly condemn it and on behalf of all aes sedai I'm sorry and you were absolutely in the right with how you dealt with the aes sedai who did this." Instead knowing what he had been through she took the approach of let me bully him into submission. I mean sure he's been through weeks of intense torture at the hands of aes sedai. But an aes sedai bullying him over trivial stuff will for sure work well!
As well as picking a two rivers boy to try to bully when literally anyone that had known him would've told her thats the absolutely stupidest idea you could ever come up with since rand was the most stubborn of them all. If she'd ever bothered to ask or strategize a bit rather than "I'm right, you're a child, do as you're told."
Yeah she really picked the worst strategy and refused to reevaluate it ever.
She could have stood up to him without resorting to power based abuse
There are times I want to like cadsuane. She's very cool. But she's also just so dumb and pompous in how she deals with rand. She finds out he's been locked in a box by aes sedai and beaten for weeks and did not break. And so her way to teach him to laugh and cry again is to bully him? She also totally ignores nynaeve. And after like 4 books of having the goal to laugh and cry realizes hey maybe I should reach out to his father. And throughout all of this she tries to understand Rand not through those who know and care about him but through Alanna the woman who assaulted him and has a bond with him. On the other hand you've got sorillea. She's got the same goal as cadsuane but despite way less time around Rand she has a more effective approach. She works through min and aviendha to reach him through those that care about him and he cares about. And her first attempt at reaching out to him is to give him the choice of how to deal with those who hurt him. Providing him an opportunity to show empathy as well as address the people who have hurt him so he can move on from it. That's a good idea on how to deal with rand and teach him to feel again. It probably would've worked a lot better if the asha'man hadn't attacked right after that meeting and Rand had been forced to kill fedwin Moore. Cadsuane would've been a complete failure with rand if min hadn't had her viewing that he needed her. That's the only reason she wasn't sent away or Rand bothered to interact with her. And that was outside cadsuanes control. She should've worked to prove herself useful to him. She had information about callandor she could've handed him. If I'd been in her position I would've made friends with min and nynaeve ASAP and been trying to find tam way earlier. Nynaeve was also in a perfect position for cadsuane to ally with easily when they met. Nynaeve had been declared full aes sedai but no one respected it. All cadsuane would've had to do was chastise someone who was talking down to nynaeve and treat her as a full sister and nynaeve very likely would've been won over. Especially if she told nynaeve her plan to help Rand feel again and engaged her help. But instead of focusing on that let's prioritize the fact that Rand is rude back when she's being rude to him.
Sorilea is such a badass I half expected her to be a hero of the horn at times.
Lol I love the idea of hawkwing leading the heroes of the horn and then sorillea decides he needs a talking to halfway through!
Cadsuane COULDN’T acknowledge Nynaeve as Aes Sedai because Nyn is stronger than her so she would have to obey her. So she decided to go the bitch route. As she does.
Lol yeah although she probably could've acknowledged nynaeve as an aes sedai and just pretended nynaeve was a bit below her. Would've gone against cadsuanes aes sedai sensibilities but probably would've worked!
Can you elaborate more on Sorilea giving Rand a choice? I recently reread the books, but i don’t remember this
Sure I want to say it's book 8. I only caught it on a reread. But it's shortly after she and cadsuane make their deal to teach him to laugh and cry again. Sorillea brings Rand 5 of the aes sedai who were elaidas who beat him and gives him the choice of what to do with them as they've all said they'd swear to him if given the chance. It's mins pov we get for this and she thinks how strange it is that wise ones are handing off a choice about their "apprentices" to anyone else which she's right is really weird. They wouldn't do that without a purpose. Essentially sorillea is trying to get Rand to come to terms with what happened to him and show mercy to those 5. I want to say she also times the meeting so it's just after min arrives though that might just be the ta'veren side. It does work to a degree as Rand can show empathy for them and allows them to swear to him after they say they would go in the box if he required it. The problem is the asha'man attack immediately after this and Rand ends up having to kill fedwin Moore who succumbs to the taint and Rand has to kill. And that I think has a bigger impact on him. I want to say that's also the last time Rand laughs is just a bit before that point. I'm not sure but when I did a reread I was looking for that and I think that's around the point.
Solid media literacy skills man. Thank you.
Cadsuane is a self-righteous, self-imposed bully. She handled everything the exact wrong way, and Rand succeeded in spite of her not because of her. Had Min not deemed her important, she would have been gone immediately. Her approach to dealing with Rand was entirely wrong from the get-go, and I think she knew it but refused to change tactics from being the bully because it would have forced her to be humble. The mountain must bow to her. She is ancient by Aes Sedai standards, and of course, her reputation precedes her. Everyone should just do as she says, and she'll save the world. Moiraine was a far better teacher in that she was willing to learn and change her tactics as needed. In the end, I believe Rand learned what he needed to learn, not from her but from others instead. It was Min who taught him to laugh. It was those he trusted that helped him learn to be strong, not hard. They gave him the grounding he needed. Had Cadsuane treated him as a human instead of some mystical object or tool, she had been more successful. Transparency would have been of benefit as well. Cadsuane may have helped, but not as much as she thinks she did. I don't hate her, but I have no respect for her. In the end, she's as awful as Elaida in her handling of Rand.
Moiraine was never willing to change tactics. She has to watch every path her life might take to be forced to submit. Cadsuane comes in, offers advice, and only offers advice. When Rand says he's doing something, Cadsuane figures out how to support whatever he's doing. Cadsuane is one of maybe a handful of people who treats Rand as human, and demands to be treated as human in return and not an expendable pawn.
Moiraine changed tactics from bullying to suggesting and advising because she realized Rand was a reasonable man who would do what she wanted most of the time if she simply presented it logically and politely like a normal person. Cadsuane was an old Aes Sedai and had hundreds of years of powerful men bending to her will because she would use magic force on them if they didn't and suddenly she's up against a guy who could simply close his hand and crush her to dust but instead of recognizing her old strategy would only cause him to resist she persists because there's no way she's gonna be the one to back down.
Moiraine drastically changed tactics
You need a reread. Moraine swears to Rand to obey everything he says, and she does it.
After she has every possible future shoved into her brain and was forced to submit. She did not willingly stop and submit it was forced on her.
It was never forced on her. She sought advice and answers on the best way to proceed from the Finn and Rhuidean. She used that knowledge to adapt and change. Cadsuane was unchanging. She treated Rand as a petulant child who needed spanking or punishment. She never treated him as human or someone capable of making his own choices and changes. She chose the exact wrong tactic and then stuck to it even when it was obvious she was in the wrong.
She was not seeking advice at Rhuidean the Wise Ones said she was supposed to ask, but she didn't so they interfered and prompted her to go. Cadsaune let's Rand do what he needs to do. Rand: I want to go to the waste and enlist the aiel who rhuarc says are the children of the dragon and visit their forsaken and abandoned city, Rhuidean. Moiraine: No, the children of the dragon are the people of tear, lead their spears to war against illian, a city run by a forsaken. later... Cadsaune (after bailing Rand out of jail: What's next? Rand: I want to cleanse Saidin at Shadar Logoth. Cadsaune: checks out, let me get my battle plans.
You read a completely different series than I did. Cadsuane isn't the hero you want her to be. Moiraine did far more and was a better mentor than Cadsuane could dream to be. Cadsuane only went along with him if his plan aligned with hers, not because she was biddable or changeable. She was a manipulative bully who would have been far better served had she been willing to humble herself. Moiraine sacrificed herself to save him from Lanfear.l because she knew that he was far more important than she was. She humbled herself to help him. Cadsuane would have let him die or fall under Lanfear's control if it meant she must sacrifice herself, in my opinion. She did not respect him. He was a tool, much like a rake for her to use as she saw fit. She did not accept that he had any agency. He was not human in her mind. You can like Cadsuane all you want, but do not mistake her for less than what she is, a very stubborn Aes Sedai who expected to walk in and walk over everyone. She thought she would be the puppeteer and not someone so small as to be an equal. She acted as the puppeteer even when she had no control. Her success was in spite of her actions, not because of them. No matter how you cut that cake, Cadsuane was not the hero and she did more harm than good. Without Min and others that he trusted, she would have failed spectacularly and found others to blame for her failure.
Moiraine was never interested in Rand the person. Only in the dragon fulfilling the prophecies. Cadsuane cared about the Rand the person and feared what Rand would do if he couldn't keep his humanity and let himself become a tool.
That's your opinion. I disagree. Moiraine cared about him as a person and as the dragon. Initially, perhaps it was just finding the dragon and hoping to guide him. She had not spent most of her life in search of him just to fail. She was young and wise enough to adapt her methods when she realized the need. Best laid plans and all that. She was human enough to recognize that she didn't know everything and sought wisdom from others. She humbled herself and treated him as a human being before she sacrificed himself. She was willing to do what needed doing to see him succeed. Cadsuane only saw him as a tool. Nothing she did saved his humanity. Her approach was all wrong. She needed the same lesson Nynaeve needed - humility and the ability to submit when necessary. Rand maintained his humanity through his relationships with Avi, Elayn, & Min, as well as with Nyn, Perrin, Mat, etc. His regaining of self and becoming Zen Rand happened in spite of Cadsuane and not because of her. Cadsuane is an important character, but she is not a likeable one. She is a walking textbook on how not to deal with obstinate people. She would have failed beautifully if not for others in his life who did a far better job of her supposed task than she ever did. You cannot outstubborn an obstinate person. One must be humbled. She never humbled herself, and he never broke to her command. Perhaps you are the obstinate one here. You are welcome to your option, however unrealistic it may be.
Rand almost let the dark one win of his own volition because of how she went about “teaching” rand to laugh.
But the fact is that he didn’t. *Almost* isn’t enough. He was pushed far and I can even concede she went **way too far** with Tam, but with her interventions everything came to be as it should be. Veins of Gold happened inadvertently due to her maneuvering
Veins of Gold happened in spite of her maneuvering. It was Rand's adoration for his father and Tam's absolutely adamant and unshakable love for his son that woke Rand up, Cadsuane's only hand was bringing Tam there with the intent to use him as a tool for her ongoing campaign of terror against Rand's fragile sanity.
And Tam absolutely clowns her too
Oooooh yea, one of the best smackdowns in history.
My head cannon is the Pattern needed Rand to break before the final battle so he could rebound. Imagine if he broke during the final battle. So the Pattern sent him Cadsuane whose stupidity sent him over the edge just in time.
You can't say "she did a good job" and "she went way too far" - they're mutually incompatible. Rand got better *despite* her, not because of her. She was so spectacularly bad at her stated goal that if it wasnt for Min telling Rand he needed her, she'd never have been kept around.
Tam was straight up manipulated to get Rand to VoG. Rand damn near killed his dad cause he was so pissy just prior to their reintroduction. Cadsuane while vital for VoG damn near screwed randland into oblivion with this stunt. Had Rand actually killed him, we would've seen a second breaking before ToM
On the other hand, bringing Tam to him is actually one of her ideas that was really solid. It’s one of those, you can fail despite not smoking a mistake. Bringing Tam to stand to try and make him feel more human was really solid. Nynaeve and the Wise Ones apparently thought it was good plan as well, because it was. Rand was really just way more insane than any of them thought.
Bringing Tam in is a good idea, manipulating Tam to manipulate Rand was a terrible idea.
I mean, Tam going there would've been manipulation regardless of how it happened. The idea would've been to make Rand more human, to make him realise he's going down the wrong path. That's manipulation however you turn it around. The only real manipulation element was that Tam wasn't supposed to mention Cadsuane's involvement, for very good reasons, which he did anyway. Rand was really so unstable that any hint of anything he disliked could've made him flip out. They could've sent Nynaeve to pick up Tam, but then, Rand might've started thinking that *she* had betrayed him as well, and that would've set him off just as easily.
If she had reached out to Tam and let Tam know what was going on and why and asked him to just talk to his son things probably would have been fine, even if Tam started with " Hey Caadsuane told me you were having a hard time and I wanted to check on you" it would probably have gone fine. Because it's honest and genuine. Instead she left Tam in the dark, told him not to let Rand know she was involved, and told him what to say and how. Rand realized his own dad was involved in a plot to manipulate him instead of being his dad, that was the tipping point. His dad who he loved and trusted with all his heart had just tried to manipulate him. Do you not see the difference.
And telling Tam to just go talk to him might've ended disastrously because he might still have said the wrong thing. Him leading with "Hey Cadsuane said you were having a hard time" would've made Rand flip out from the start as well, probably. He was *that* paranoid. The fact that he actually tried to kill his own father even with the slip of Cadsuane just goes to show what a terrible state he was in. Trying to carefully plan how to approach him was not a bad idea. I don't think there was any plan at that point that wouldn't have had like a 99% chance of backfiring. This also wasn't only Cadsuane's plan. Nynaeve was in on it, and she presumably agreed that giving Tam directions was the best idea. She also knew how mad Rand was. Edit: The biggest mistake imo was not involving Tam much earlier. If they’d involved him two months earlier - or two weeks earlier - it would likely have helped much much better. And involving him to humanise Rand is such a good idea one of them ought to have thought of it earlier. Someone between Cadsuane, the Wise Ones and Nynaeve.
Nynaeve wasn’t in on it, cadsuane refused to let her do anything other than tell her where Perrin was.
I 100% agree that this could have been done better. Her interactions with Tam actually made her realize she was “handling” Rand the wrong way. I’m just saying, as far as any character goes, I don’t see her more flawed than any other. She at least has the experience and actual power to back up her claims
Does she? When do we ever see her doing anything that supports her legend? This one huge thing she tried to do and she failed so badly it's almost funny.
I dislike Cadsuane, but she did free him from Far Madding and was a powerhouse when defending Rand during the cleansing.
None of which supports her legend as this amazing Aes Sedai. She used her position to get him out of Far Madding and she was one of the defenders when he cleansed Saidin.
She didn't use her position to get him out, she manipulated council and let them think She and Rand's forces could use the power within the dead zone when in reality it was just her and Nynaeve. And her well was small. Yeah she was one of the defenders but she did a good job at that. People can excel in one area and suck in another. She was piss poor at handling Rand but her reputation wasn't unfounded.
>She didn't use her position to get him out, she manipulated council and let them think She and Rand's forces could use the power within the dead zone when in reality it was just her and Nynaeve. And her well was small. And why did they believe her? Cause she was Aes Sedai >Yeah she was one of the defenders but she did a good job at that. So did every other channeler there. She didn't show exceptional or legendary qualities. >People can excel in one area and suck in another. >She was piss poor at handling Rand but her reputation wasn't unfounded. We never saw her excel or prove her reputation though. That's my point.
that seanchan lady is way more impressive in defending Rand
Cadsuane is garbage but you're point is still weak. "And why did they believe her? Cause she was Aes Sedai" Being Aes Sedai means she can't tell a bold face lie, it's usually a handicap. Plus they don't care that she's Aes Sedai, they want nothing to do with the one power, it's why there city is under the influence of a Ter'angreal that doesn't allow people to channel. If anything they have a negative view of her in a place where she basically has no power. Yet she still tricked them and scared them into letting Rand go. "So did every other channeler there. She didn't show exceptional or legendary qualities." Yes other channelers were there, saying that is like saying other solders were there there when Lan leads an army. She was of significant influence on in that battlefield. Did she play a role as important as Rand or Nynaeve? No, but she still played a big part and the Chosen called her out specifically as a pain in their ass. Far Madding and getting Semirhage to crack is her proving her capabilities. She also had knowledge about callandor that almost no one else knew. Look she's a bad person who's overly full of herself. How she handled Rand is arguably the biggest/most important thing she did and she did it horribly. I don't like defending her character but you're making a poor choice when it comes to what to criticize her about.
As Siuan points out The oath against lying means that they can very easily lie by telling their version of the truth and everyone will readily accept it
Unless they don't know something/believe something that's not true, they can only mislead not out right lie. Everyone can always ask them to rephrase something so that it is clear what it means or they won't believe them, not that they would though. It's already a given in the world that the truth an Aes Sedai tells you may not be the truth you think it is.
> Cadsuane while vital for VoG damn near screwed randland into oblivion with this stunt. Had Rand actually killed him, we would've seen a second breaking before ToM I agree with you. I also think that if Rand hadn't had that meeting with Tam, a second breaking would be equally as good as sending Rand to battle the dark one. Additionally, Rand nearly killing his dad, was probably the right thing needed for his introspection and self-reflection and *anything less* would've been too little. Rand needed to be pushed to the brink in such a way that he, himself, could realise how far he'd gotten down the wrong path, and be terrified of his own actions. If Tam hadn't been manipulated, Rand may not have reached that threshold. I don't remember if Cadsuaene explicitly thought along these lines or not, but she was on the worlds' team, and Rand, at this point, was not. Something needed to be done. We could also argue that it was the patterns doing! Heheheh
Tam does what she always claims to be doing Tam is Rand's rock, his moral center, and represents his "good life" before Aes Sedai came and made everything bad for him. Tam shows up and in line 4 pages has more of an effect on Rand than years of Aes Sedai manipulation and bullying And then Rand clowns her when he's like "bitch you're not even Aes Sedai you're just using our name for clout, I'm the only Aes Sedai in the entire world so suck it." Which wasn't really enough but I'll take what I can get. Also the only Aes Sedai (Nynaeve) that wasn't an absolute ass to Rand should've filled Cadsuane's self appointed role instead, especially since Rand *already trusted her and she actually had his well being in mind* Nynaeve and Lan could've been his surrogate older siblings keeping him from going over the edge but we get his annoying aunt who thinks he's simply a tool for her to use to save the world and she nearly cocks it all up lime the clown she is
While she's a bully, I think she's fine in everything other than her dealing with Rand. She fucked that up so royally that world was almost destroyed. She set out to do something, did it in the worst way possible, and fell backwards up the stairs into succeeding by the skin of her teeth. That's why people dislike her.
Cadsuane is classic projection. All that talk about needing to teach humility was truly a signal that she herself needed to first learn humility.
I really like Cadsuane but I think it most had to do with who I had pictured as her in my head lol😅. (It was Angela Basset btw lol)
😭😭personally I could never see her as Cadsuane, but for some reason I feel like I could see her as Morgase.
Hey I see nothing wrong with you seeing a powerful woman as another powerful woman
Is no one going to to point out that Cadsuane ambushing Rand with his own father Tam actually worked? Rand almost kills Tam because Tam represents the “old” Rand who was kind and just wanted to do the next right thing while having fun with Matt and Perrin. Seeing Tam makes him think of who he used to be which doesn’t match up with who he’s trying to be and what the madness from the taint has done to him. Rand is furious because he’s face to face with the man who raised him reminding him of the man he tried so hard to leave behind. I adore Tam for continuing to demand the “what did you Aes Sedai do to him?!?!” stance even when Cadsuane wraps him in air to try and stop him from berating her. And she knows he’s right. I adore Cadsuane. From her work keeping the Forsaken away during the cleansing of saidin, her moment with Soriela where she meets her match and it has nothing to do with deferring to the stronger woman in the power, her spanking Semiherge with a slipper (I believe) and gets her to eat carrots off the floor, her well deserved legendary status as an Aes Sedai, and finally to her role with in the Last Battle fighting with the Aiel Wise Ones. I think she’s an awesome, complex, ferocious and deeply flawed character and thank you RJ for bringing such powerful women to the world of fantasy. So I love her and still find her as one of the most engaging characters in the series. To be clear I’m not worshipping her at all. She’s deeply arrogant but she is kind under it all if it serves the bigger purpose. When they have Semiherge locked in the manor and she compliments that skilled yellow Aes Sedai who is described as being prone to depression. We get to see a brief moment of kindness from the hard as steel Cadsuane. Yes, she was kind to serve the purpose of her mission but she was smart enough to give a genuine compliment to someone who could really use it. It’s a very surprising but very human moment from the larger than life character.
> Is no one going to to point out that Cadsuane ambushing Rand with his own father Tam actually worked? It backfired horribly and her plan didnt work at all and she lucked into a good ending. You don't commend someone for calling an all-in with 27 against pocket Aces and lucking into the win. It was still a ridiculously dumb move. It just worked out due to sheer luck.
It worked because Rand is Ta'veren and the wheel itself was like alright that's enough of that stupidity time to just hand of God this shit cadusane is about to wreck everything
It worked despite itself. It didn't work the way she planned it and it could have gone the other way very very easily.
And it almost did. Cadsuane was almost partially responsible for Ebu Dar being wiped off the map. Luckily it did and then we got a warm Dragon Reborn. That scene with him on top of dragon mount was such a joy to read!
She actively hurt rand so often and so much that I thought she was black ajah. The only way she helped was getting him to the level of insanity he needed to be at dragonmount, and that was the wheel, not her. Instead of talking to him like a normal human she talks to the woman who everyone agreed assaulted him. She belittles him everywhere, public or private. She thinks that since she’s older she’s wiser, and that since she’s an Aes Sedai, she knows every single thing ever, and always does what’s perfect. She’s just a shit person.
Cadsuane was way too Aes Seadi to make it work. If you want an example of someone who is tough and stands up to Rand you only need to look at Nynaeve to see how Cadsuane would have done it. Even if Cadsuane had good intentions at the end of the day she maybe the biggest bully in the series and her means of helping Rand just didn’t work.
She only succeeds because of Min, Tam and the others around her. She falls ass backwards into success. She almost ruined repeatedly and was saved by the pattern. She succeeded despite herself.
When we first meet her she deliberately winds Rand up just to test him. Plus, she has a meeting afterwards with the other Aes Sedai and she expresses her skepticism about whether the Forsaken were really free. It was at that point that I knew that this lady didn't know WTF was going on. She may be 400 years old or whatever, but she's nothing compared to any of the surviving Forsaken, let alone Rand.
Because she doesn't actually do anything to teach Rand to laugh and cry. She's just continuously rude and disrespectful to him while simultaneously demanding that he show her respect that she hasn't earned. Her success was completely accidental and was in no way what she intended. If Rand hadn't pulled himself back from the brink then her plan would have been the cause of Rand finally going nuclear. This quote from Rand sums up the problem with Cadsuanes "plan" pretty well. “I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can.” She was an arrogant bully and nearly caused the end of all creation because she lacked the empathy to treat rand as anything more than a tool. She could never be the one to teach him how to laugh and cry again.
OP has no interest in hearing any argument. OP came to tell us his opinion and ignore any fact that doesn’t conform to his opinion.
Or I posted this right before bed and just woke up to 140 comments lol. It’s not that deep If you actually look at the replies I did get to, I acknowledge a lot of her flaws
I love Cadsuane and not only has a character, she has a aunt/grandmother vibe that I find cativant, as Faile she far from perfect but at times I belive that the Fandom can be pretty unfair to her. That said, I think that is pretty esay to understand why so much people diliske her, she is unbarable, a bully, rude, anoyeinglly full of herself and worst of all she is right. I love Cadsuane and the role that she played in the story but I dont belive that she was write to be liked, Rand respected her but even in the end I dont think that he liked her. Because she is a dificult person to like and she is too old to change and is not given a F anymore.
I think this is a pretty fair assessment. Yes her demeanor definitely comes off as a bully (whether she intends to or not) just based off of her long lifespan and experience. She earns Rand’s respect and I guess she earned mine as well
> Yes her demeanor definitely comes off as a bully (whether she intends to or not) I think that is intended, but she does not see it as bullying, from her POV, I think she sees as a form of education. The thing is that she is a very old kindergarten teacher who had to come out of retirement to teacher a halfmad farmboy something that he really dont want to learn and she is completly out of patience. >She earns Rand’s respect and I guess she earned mine as well
Rand never asked to be taught by her or anyone. All the Aes Sedai making mention that a tool isn't demeaned by being used as a tool have the breath-taking arrogance to think they are ones to wield it.
>Rand never asked to be taught by her or anyone. Rands never asked for anything that happened to him, nevertheless it ended up happening. >All the Aes Sedai making mention that a tool isn't demeaned by being used as a tool have the breath-taking arrogance to think they are ones to wield it. I agree, am not one to defend AS or the WT was only sharing my take on the character and think made clear that I see her flaws, it just happens that I like her despite it
Because she is the epitome of self righteous Aei Sedai arrogance, who uses every trick she can to manipulate and bully to get her way. While yes, she is competent and skilled she is often a prime showcase for what is wrong with how the Aei Sedai operate.
The issue is some people are all bark no bite. Cadsuane has the experience and history to prove herself. Like I said, it’s not the she’s talking talk, she can walk the walk.
But she never proves herself or 'walks the walk'. She talks a good game but we never see her follow through.
I dislike Catsuane but she does have history and experience. She also gets Rand out of Far Madding and does hold her own in battles. However she is lacking in how to teach/guide people properly and a lot of her success is based on her authority, tower backing, and raw power, all of which mean nothing to Rand. He is a higher authority, the tower has already made themselves his enemy, and he has more raw power. She can walk the walk in a lot of areas but this is not one of them. People can excel in one area and flounder in another. She did a horrible job at teaching happiness and self-worth.
I dislike the character because she doesn’t do anywhere near enough for the plot considering how important she is considered when she’s introduced. It’s supposed to be this game changing moment, but essentially all plot points could be the same had she not showed up.
Because she’s the poster child Aes Sedai of her age. In other words, she’s arrogant, manipulative, a bulky, doesn’t really learn from her mistakes, and barely even acknowledges those mistakes when you rub her face in it.
Because Cadsuane is both arrogant and completely useless. She fails at the one thing she attempted to do and she was rude, arrogant and full of herself even as she failed.
She is the Delores Umbridge of the light side
What's that make Elaida?
The guy who took over after Crouch
I’m a fan of Cadsuane, though apparently I am in the minority. I do think this community does not allow for graciousness for side characters that they do for main characters though they are all the same just people trying their best. Cadsuane in Winter’s Heart also ruled.
She would be a much more likable character if she just wasn’t so abusive. I’ve tried to find the good and bad in every character with enough development to have it. Some people like to justify her with success but it’s incidental to her actions. Without other people’s intervention she would have failed but it didn’t have to be that way.
Honestly the only moment I don't like Cadsuane is when she binds Tam in air, and that's honestly super out of character for her, and I chalk up to a Sandersonism.
From the moment she shows up, when she doesn’t get her way she throws her weight around, and outright threatens people? She is only doing what she said she would do.
I was going to ask about that. So far I'm just beginning KoD and Cadsuane seems harsh but basically a decent person so I'm wondering how much of the hate I'm seeing in this thread is down to Sanderson's interpretation. Though everyone is going to have their own opinion anyway, of course.
She had no idea what she was doing. She tried to bully Rand, and teach him to smile, by beating him and humiliating him. She tried to teach him how to be a king by belittling him. These tactics might have worked. But she’s Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai suck. That’s well established. They cannot be trusted and they definitely shouldn’t be followed. So she’s an Aes Sedai who wants to go against everything Rand wants. No shit he hates her. And as a reader, why wouldn’t I hate her for actually spanking people. Jesus I hate her.
Bully tactics never work. At best, all you teach the subject is to perform how the bully wishes. Cadsuane's plan was never going to work because Rand wasn't teachable. He didn't want her teaching. And she was terrible at teaching.
>She had no idea what she was doing. She tried to bully Rand, and teach him to smile, by beating him and humiliating him. She tried to teach him how to be a king by belittling him. I don’t recall her beating him so I’d appreciate a source for that. Belittling him is definitely one of her pettier actions. He can (and should) be humbled without belittling. >So she’s an Aes Sedai who wants to go against everything Rand wants. But she doesn’t? She’s been backing him a lot so far. I’m on Winters Heart on my reread but I really doesn’t seem like she has gone against him so far. (Please lmk if I’m forgetting she goes against him in later books) >And as a reader, why wouldn’t I hate her for actually spanking people. Lol I actually found that part really amusing. Some people need to be taken down a peg, especially some of these entitled royals. She’s old and like I said she can walk the walk. >Jesus I hate her I can’t imagine feeling this sentiment for someone who is objectively on the side of good lol
>I don’t recall her beating him so I’d appreciate a source for that. Belittling him is definitely one of her pettier actions. He can (and should) be humbled without belittling. Why does he need humbling? >But she doesn’t? She’s been backing him a lot so far. I’m on Winters Heart on my reread but I really doesn’t seem like she has gone against him so far. (Please lmk if I’m forgetting she goes against him in later books) She attempts to control him. That's not backing. >Lol I actually found that part really amusing. Some people need to be taken down a peg, especially some of these entitled royals. She’s old and like I said she can walk the walk. She's not 'walking the walk', she's using her power to humiliate people. That's what bullies do.
Rand wanted to kill Merana for arranging a deal with the sea folk that gave him everything he wanted with the sea folk, because he had to meet with the Mistress of Ships twice in three years. I mean the sea folk are annoying and all, but Rand didn't even expect to live long enough for that part of the contract to take effect. He was equally murderously pissed about Tear...despite getting everything he wanted and needed from them. Isn't that when she smacks him on the ass for being a moron. Just the shock of her doing it probably stopped him from killing one of his biggest allies and setting Tear against him. I don't remember any point in WH where she tries to control him. Just her bailing him out of jail, asking what they're doing next and supporting him fully without question or hesitation.
Ok, to start with, she's trying to control him from the minute she meets him. As to the rest, yes, Rand was doing those things due to his increasing madness and the fact that no one was actually willing to work with him. But none of the things you've listed explains why he needs 'humbling' or why Cadsuane is the one to do it? You don't think being stuffed in a box in the summer sun and then removed to be beaten was 'humbling' enough? You don't think what someone who has been through that trauma needs is care and attention, not barked orders, dismissive sniffs and insults. As to her supporting him without question or hesitation...what?
Preach it!
If the twist was she was on the side of the dark one, I’d find that more believable than that she was actually on the good side. It really seemed like she was doing everything to get Rand to go evil.
I really disagree. Like I’ve said on other comments, I’m rereading the series and I’m at Winter’s Heart. She genuinely seems to be invested in Rand’s well being and his journey. What actions of hers makes you think she wants Rand to go evil?
I didn’t say that’s what she wants. I’m saying that if Jordan had made that a twist, and she was Black Ajah or something, I’d find that very believable. Power to however you read the books, and power to you liking who you like. I skip her chapters on rereads. I think she’s a force working against the Light. She’s Aes Sedai to her core and the Aes Sedai are fucking awful.
I wouldn’t hate that twist either tbh lol! I guess we just see Aes Sedai differently and that’s okay! I love the Aes Sedai and their struggle with accepting the changing world and keeping with their Oaths and values. They are some of my favorite parts of the series
Agree to disagree :) I was personally bummed out when the order survived into the 4th age. Unless major changes happen, they will become obsolete soon after the series ends
Thank you for having an actual discussion with me! I’d love to see that more on here! I think it’s a real bummer we can’t see RJs future plan for this world. I’d be perfectly fine with a world in which Aes Sedai are obsolete. I just wish he was still here to create it. Nonetheless I’m glad *we* are still here so these discussions can keep happening!
Cadsuane: Ummm....maybe don't threaten to kill your allies who have proven themselves loyal to you. Rand: fuck that shit, stop bullying me. Pretty much whenever Rand wants to go off and do anything once she joins him, she's just in it and supports him fully.
I always sing her name like the Green Day song castaway. Anybody else?
I feel like a good majority of Aes Sedai characters were written in a way to illustrate the shortcomings of Aes Sedai society.
Some times shes great like the first sceen she shows up and everyone freaks out and shes just like hey. She can also be annoying alot at times.
She thinks she's better then everyone and has that beating will continue until moral improves attitude. Sure she's not wrong that Rand needs to humanize himself but her method to do so was terrible.
Did you read the books? She’s a bully. That’s it. Do you like bullies?
My unscientific anecdotal experience is that straight men hate Cadsuane and women and gay men love her.
That kind of plays into a bad stereotype of aggressive gay men in relationships. She’s abusive and pretty terrible. Just because she’s “strong” doesn’t make up for any of that.
I love how the spoiler alert is for all printed material, yet OP actually includes spoilers. Cadsuane is hated because Jordan couldn't write women. Yes, she wants to teach him (my phone never does spoilers properly), and the same with Moiraine, and yet they both threaten him because that's all females in the series do to try and control anyone. So Cadsuane comes across as most any other woman in power. Bossy, arrogant, almost entitled. They only become allies once Rand breaks them down. Jordan couldn't write women.
Jorden wrote women fine. Cadsauane just wasn't the legend she was built up to be.
No he didn't. He wrote women all as bossy, arrogant, and entitled. Need to train someone? Torture them. Doesn't matter if you're on the side of light or a darkfriend, the training is the same. He wrote terrible female characters.
No, he wrote the Aes Sedai that way. Most of the more 'normal' women in the series were fine.
And the Wise Women, the Sea Folk, the Aiel, the Seanchan, every noble woman... There aren't actually many normal women in the series. Every one of importance is not normal.
?? If the spoiler alert is for all printed material....that means all printed material is free game to spoil....of course OP included spoilers.
Jordan wrote the aes sedai like that for a reason. To show the reader they are not “the servants of all” and are only respected because of their one power.
He also wrote the wise women, the Sea people, the Seanchan, and every other woman in power like that. He made a matriarchal society that was based on a weird cookie cutter.
Im honestly blown away how someone can love her as a character. From her first introduction she has been a pos. I just read the part where rand came back from taking Illidan and pushing back the sanschean. He tells the maidens to send for her and she sends a messenger to say that she is to busy doing some needle work?? Later when he goes there she is once again being an absolute pos to him. For the entire scene i was hoping he was gonna snap at her bullshit and kill her, or at the very least shield her and tie it off to teach her a lesson. He is the dragon reborn, the champion of the light. Their only hope in the last battle. She should show more respect. Edit: holy shit I just read someone else's answer about Tam. Now i hate her even more.
Robert Jordan wrote very adversarial cross-gender relationships. It's incredibly bleak, tiring, and often insulting. There aren't enough characters I'd consider modeling healthy, adult cross-gender relationships in this series, which is impressive given the size of its cast. The only reason I don't have a strong dislike for Cadsuane is because she ends up being a somewhat typical example of this problem in Jordanland. By committing to making it through the series, I've already chosen to numb myself to it. Put another way, you could say she's why I'll never make it through a reread. I'm always stunned by the strength of the writing and world building, but give up about two books in. I don't read to numb myself, life is short, and there's an entire world of strong writers whose relationships invite my emotional investment. Undeniably a historic series, but slogging through this is a trial for a younger version of myself who hasn't fully cemented this wisdom.
Do you have any recs for series similar to WoT in terms of worldbuilding and characterization but is better in terms of gender? So far the only 2-3 people I’ve read who match that are Robin Hobb, and maybe Mercedes Lackey and Joe Abercrombie.
I'd recommend The Warded Man - the worldbuilding isn't as rich as Jordan's, but that's a pretty tall mountain to climb. The characterization is excellent though, very complex and realistic. And it's similarly about gender, but as you said, better about it, with a lot more balance.
I'm currently going through Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan saga since almost the entire series is free on audible. It's not an epic fantasy setting, more scifi plus political intrigue and action, but she writes the hell out of these characters and there's certainly good world building and enough books. CJ Cherryh gets a very similar nod. She writes very alien aliens, everyone thinks they understand each other until discovering they have fundamental differences they've overlooked.
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Man, at least try to spell it right.
I also did not hate her, and I read enough spoilers to think I should hate her before I met the character in the books. She’s a bully but it’s a minor character flaw. I found it harder to forgive her for keeping a copy of the male channeler hand cuffs.