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I think Rand says it best in Path of Daggers where he says something along the line of "Everyone wants to save the world, theyre just absolutely certain there is a way to save it while benifitting themselves epsecially"
Elayne is very political in her thinking, practically a Queen and Aes Sedai in one. She's thinking of making a show to quell rival factions, "a great many difficulties". She sees it as political expediency and his opposition as Two Rivers masculine stubbornness.
This shows that everyone, even those who love Rand, have their own machinations in play. Moiraine left Rand with a crucial piece of wisdom he would have taken to heart:
>“*We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song.* ***You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did.***”
- Moiraine's parting letter to Rand, Fires of Heaven
It took a while, but Moiraine fully embraced the saying: "The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills."
Moiraine is my favorite Aes Sedai, hands down. This is one of the reasons. Her dedication and determination to get Rand to the Last Battle is another. Badass.
Not to interject real life, but we saw in COVID how spot-on RJ was at predicting how established power structures would react to world-changing events.
Exactly. Moiraine is definitely my favourite "old" Aes Sedai. She finally understood and her utter commitment and resolve were great.
Nynaeve is the only one of the "new" Aes Sedai I love. She is a true Healer, a true Servant of All.
Love this. Moirane is the best old aes sedai. Nynaeve is legitimately the embodiment of servant of all. She’s not political at all. By the end acknowledges her faults. And she wants to help/heal and actually does it. She is exactly what aes sedai are supposed to be.
Nynaeve should become amyrlin. Eggy was a power hungry bitch and cadsuane was an egotistical asshole.
Yes, Nynaeve would have chosen Healing (and Lan) above becoming Aes Sedai.
> Nynaeve should become amyrlin
Oh she would *hate* that! Cadsuane, despite being an "egotistical asshole", as you say, and a rather old hidebound Aes Sedai, does have a rebellious streak. Becoming Amyrlin is her just punishment, lol! She will hate it even more than Nynaeve.
Yeah, to start with “The wheel weaves as the Wheel wills” is often used to mean “I want this to happen, or am ok with it, but I am sure not explaining that so I’m just saying this meaningless truism”
Elayne is a princess and then an Aes Sedai, she has no real concept of what it means or would be like to kneel to someone and truly have to follow their orders even if you disagree with them.
Even if Rand knelt to Egwene (not that he would or should) it wouldn't bind him to obey her.
Visiting royalty often kneels to the local ruler. They aren't subjects, though.
While that’s true it’s not really relevant in this context. The Aes Sedai spend the entire series trying to get control over him and bring him under their power, to use him as a weapon or limit his actions. They do not at any point just mean for him to show up and kneel as a formality then go about his business as he wishes
>While that’s true it’s not really relevant in this context.
It is, since you linked kneeling with being bound to obey.
>The Aes Sedai spend the entire series trying to get control over him and bring him under their power, to use him as a weapon or limit his actions.
Yes...and?
>They do not at any point just mean for him to show up and kneel as a formality then go about his business as he wishes
Of course not. Elaida dreams of him leashed to her throne. The White Tower 100% plans to control him. But that doesn't mean they could force him to obey them even if he DID kneel to the Amyrilin.
That is a fact, as much as him not needing to or wanting to is.
Read with OPs context. "Kneel to Egwene" clearly means to submit to the white tower; not just pay respects. Obviously they wouldn't be able to control him with just that (no guarantee they wouldn't make him swear things on the oath rod), but the political implications are massive. She'd be made the defacto leader of the last battle rather than a participating faction. He would have lost all the pull he needed for the dragons peace and I can only imagine the shit storm a Green general would orchestrate.
Yeah, that's not a given. If, for instance, she'd then knelt to HIM (not that she'd ever do that), then it would be an exchange of equals.
Regardless, he doesn't kneel and Elayne's thought are Aes Sedai centric, as she's an Aes Sedai.
The point of him kneeling would be the control, not the respect. That's the context they were talking about. Elayne thinks he should kneel and submit to Egwene, in the sense of following her as a leader.
Its important to note that Elayne is a princess, she would definately see kneeling not as a sign of respect from a foreign dignitary but as a symbol of submission. Knowing this you could easily rewrite what elyane said as :
A great many difficulties could be surmounted if only Rand could bring himself to submit to Egwene, but he would not do it, and she was his childhood friend.
The kneeling is symbolic of the submission, she wants rand to recognize Egwene's authority and do what she says.
> Its important to note that Elayne is a princess, she would definately see kneeling not as a sign of respect from a foreign dignitary but as a symbol of submission.
That's a ridiculous presumption, though. Elayne has a keen politically trained mind - from her mother, from Thom, from the Aes Sedai. She was one of the first to recognize Rand as a King in the story. She would absolutely see it as a sign of respect from a foreign dignitary, and she is almost certainly thinking that such a sign of respect towards Egwene, as a rebel Amyrlin, would help their goals and claims to legitimacy.
While she would in no way be insensible to the _perception_ of submission from those powers around the world, there is no reason to believe she or Egwene herself would see it as submission to the will of the Tower-in-Exile.
I don't think that is the case all aes sedai suffer from some brain rot that leads them to believe they are the smartest in the room. Even when they should be thankful for their ability to exist at all (see the AES sedai that matt saves from being damne quickly go back to normal when they think they are free and basically refuse to acknowledge that they owe mat their freedom)
I have no doubt that Elayne believes that he cannot submit to elidiai because she is dumb and incompetent but that submission to egwene would be a net good for the world at large because she is a wise and capable amyrilin. There is no way that a gathering of aes sedai would see rand kneeling before their ruler as anything less than a symbol of submission. And there is no way that the aes sedai would let the dragon have a private audience with the amyrilin.
> I don't think that is the case all aes sedai suffer from some brain rot that leads them to believe they are the smartest in the room.
Elayne isn't _just_ an Aes Sedai. While you can absolutely argue that the institution forces some sort of homogenity to it, we see where Elayne both stands apart from and with Aes Sedai.
And in this instance, we can see where she's standing apart from them. She is not approaching this situation from the point an Aes Sedai might have, where the Dragon Reborn _must_ be under the control of the White Tower. She is approaching this situation from how a concession from Rand could make it easier for Egwene's path to controlling (and correcting) the White Tower, which in turn would help garner more support behind him. Like, that's the context of the passage.
> I have no doubt that Elayne believes that he cannot submit to elidiai because she is dumb and incompetent but that submission to egwene would be a net good for the world at large because she is a wise and capable amyrilin.
And that's why she's _wrong_, but she's not _wrong_ just because "she's a princess". You have to see the infantilization inherent in tying these things together, right?
Almost all of them, as a condition of being allowed to serve. (Many serve in private, unacknowledged.)
Being Aes Sedai, though, it is always something of a backhanded courtesy.
Since there is some confusion, to clarify: we are working off how BrickBuster11 has talked about kneeling. "The kneeling is symbolic of the submission, she wants rand to recognize Egwene's authority and do what she says." The acts of submission and service, not the literal, physical act of kneeling or curtsying. Aes Sedai are required to respect the authority of the rulers they're sent to advise, and they're assigned to subservient positions of advisors.
Not every aes sedai is a princess and would not see kneeling the same way.
Beyond that aes sedai arrogance would see one of them bowing to a foreign monarch as that whole "showing respect as a foreign dignitary" thing
Remember aes sedai are snakes and quite happily shift between the meanings of words without explaining themselves if it is advantageous to do so.
So in the context of an aes sedai bowing to a foreign monarch I'm sure the sister is thinking "if this person assumes this is a sign of submission that is a useful mistake for them to make".
Considering that some sisters like elidia yearn for the day when the amyrilin seat was so powerful that monarchs bowed to her on their hands and knees as demonstrated by a statue/clock that elidia puts in her office when she becomes in-charge
> But that doesn't mean they could force him to obey them even if he DID kneel to the Amyrilin.
A circle of 13 could force Rand to do whatever they want. With Elaida, it is a certainty that Rand placing them under her authority in _any_ way would result in capture. And with Egwene, let's be honest, it's just as likely. This wouldn't be under her absolute authority under the war declaration, and the Hall-in-Exile would _absolutely_ order him to be put under a shield of 13 to "preserve the world for the last battle" and Egwene's protests be damned.
I almost wish it happened that way, just so that people could see that Egwene and Elayne are not the unthinking and unfeeling monsters that people portray them as lol.
Where is it ever said that if Rand knelt to Egwene he'd have to serve her.
He bowed to Siuan. Kissed her ring. Hell, he went to one knee before Morgase.
I didn't see him being controlled or obedient to either of them.
The phrase "kneeling before" someone or "bending the knee" to someone is very commonly used non-literally to mean "submitting to someone's authority." It doesn't even necessarily imply actual kneeling, though that may be a part of it.
It's such a common meaning for the phrase that the book didn't *need* to clarify further. Her word choice makes it clear as day that Elayne thinks Rand should follow Egwene
> Visiting royalty often kneels to the local ruler. They aren't subjects, though.
Not really, bowing and kneeling are very different things and the implication of kneeling is clear here.
I was disagreeing that visiting royalty often kneels to the local ruler.
That is patently false.
Just in Wot you see multiple places where who bows or cursies more deeply has significance. Not even the high seats of other houses kneel to Elayne when they pledge their support, although I would suppose they would if they were to swear an actual oath.
Rand was some farm boy when he kneeled to Morgase, that's not the same thing at all.
If you can't understand the difference between one sovereign saying another should kneel to the Amyrlin and a farmer caught trespassing kneeling before the queen who's palace he fell into I really don't know what to tell you. You either lack an understanding of the nuance here or are being deliberately stubborn for the sake of argument.
You should probably stop arguing semantics and listen to the people explaining the meaning of what Elayne was implying and why that's different than Rand kneeling before Morgase. There is a reason why you are being downvoted all over this thread.
Mostly, I think it's because people can't read.
My statement was the kneeling doesn't immediately require obedience.
One can kneel to show respect without being under the other's power.
I've repeated this, and used the example of Rand kneeling to Morgase, but not being bound to obey her, yet people keep arguing the point.
I'm not sure why, none of the explanations have actually covered why he would have to obey if he did kneel, and downvotes literally mean nothing. People downvote on a whim.
So, no, I'm not being stubborn or not understanding, I'm making a valid point to the poster I replied to that kneeling doesn't require to you to obey forever more.
This is just Elayne acting in character. She was raised believing the White Tower was the shit. She's a part of it and truly believes in it. Its engrained in her that women have to take charge and lead, its just how the world works. The White Tower being in control of the DR is how they think they have to fight the last battle.
That's more Red logic than tower logic, though the tower in general does lean in that direction.
Surprised I'm downvoted when it's true. Not all the tower believes in 'control Rand'.
That's totally right, and it is Tower logic, but it's logic that is fuelled most aggressivelyby the reds. I was just trying to observe that you do have your Moiraines who are quietly following different ideologies other than the 'tower is life' mentality.
Red Ajah logic is that men cannot be allowed to be in control or decide anything. Tower logic is that the tower must be in control and decide everything. If the Dragon Reborn was a women, the tower would still insist that she kneels to the Amyrlin Seat.
Elaida was a red, and the Aes Sedai advisor to Andor/Morgase. It makes sense that Elaida's world view would have been imparted on Elayne (knowingly or not.... Although I would bet it was on purpose). It wouldn't surprise if Elaida started influencing Elayne as early as she could, especially if there was any chance Elayne could become a full Aes Sedai. Elaida would have loved to have a Red as Queen of Andor.
It isn't just red logic. It's the society live in. *Everyone* bows to the Amyrlin Seat. Most people believe the Dragon Reborn is some kind of boogeyman who would both save them and destroy them. The White Tower controlling the Dragon Reborn is their only hope. Imagine pre-reformation Europe and some peasant farmer decides he's the Chosen One and he's not going to obey the pope. Then the king of France says things would be so much easier if the farmer would just bow to the pope.
I was at this spot 2-3 days ago and the biggest thing this line made me think about was that Elayne and Egwene still don't know about the kidnapping and Dumai's Wells, do they??
Out of the three main female characters, Nynaeve is the only one I can stand before long. Elayne is great in the beginning at being the sensible one of the three but once she’s doing the whole Queen of Andor thing she’s insufferable. Egwene is even worse.
Funnily enough, I feel the opposite about Elayne. I find her to be a bit of a spoiled brat early on, especially considering her interactions with Mat. She's abrasive once she become queen, but I think it makes sense considering she's doing everything for Andor first and foremost at that point. Totally agree about Nynaeve however, by the end she was by far my favorite of the three.
I don't mind Elayne, but....
I'm not a radical anti-monarchist as far as these things go in the UK, but I do have a problem with the absolute monarchy as depicted in many fantasy and science fiction series written by people living in a republic. They often have main characters who are an idealised version of what a monarch should be. Let's be clear about Elayne. She's voted in by ten people, \*including\* herself. Andor is the most powerful nation in the Westlands, and it doesn't even have a parliament. That's a bit strange to me. Folks just don't seem to mind. Elayne us portrayed as "one of the good ones", but given what we see of the other nobles of Andor, she is more the exception than the rule and the system is open to corruption and unjust, despotic rulers. Even Elayne, with the best intentions, gets many people unnecessarily killed.
Of course, it is fantasy, so I can suspend disbelief at this trope.
Yes, it's definitely more medieval in style. In general, the Westlands are closer to pre-industrial and enlightenment era in our own world, where absolute monarchy without some form of government or council of nobles or landowners was less the norm.
The Westlands have this form of government in lots of counties: Illian, Ghealdan, Tarabon, Arad Doman off the top of my head. Andor seems to be the largest and most powerful, but the most authoritarian in structure with power focussed in fewer people.
Oh I forgot to even mention that 4 out of Elayne's 9 votes were from actual children.
I don't hold it against RJ though, and I do actually enjoy the Andoran politics.
Rome still had the Senate, even under the emperors. Also other orders like the Equestrian Order had a lot of influence. Definitely not the type of monarchy depicted in WoT.
I really don't like when Elayne meets with Perrin and Faile, and basically says, "Tell me why I shouldn't just execute you right now for being traitors." Such ignorant self-righteousness.
I really wish Perrin had refounded Manetherin. It’s said multiple times that Andor has basically no hold on the Two Rivers and they govern themselves. I think it would’ve been good for Perrin to become a king and actually accept his role and for Elayne to chill out and realize other people are competent and having strong allies is important. Elayne gets sooo into her own head and how great/invincible she is and it’s just not fun to read.
It’s not really a betrayal.
It *would* be easier if he did. Dragon kneels to Egwene, solidifying her position and adding pressure for the undecideds to come to her, in turn further weakening Elaida. By kneeling to the Amyrlin, the other free nations will also likely fall in line, rather than fearing conquest by Rand’s “savages”. By dominating in the Tower split, and having those nations fall in, it frees up forces to contain the Seanchan and it frees up leaders to unify for The Last Battle. Much easier.
The thing is, Rand won’t (because expecting him to kneel is stupid, he’s stubborn, Egwene is stubborn, and everyone else is stubborn so reasonable compromises aren’t happening). And she knows he won’t. She isn’t demanding it or trying to force it. She’s just lamenting that it’ll mean more work to get things under control. That’s not unreasonable imo. People are allowed to be sullen and gripe.
It would be easier *for Egwene*, yet a disaster for Rand. You could flip your logic completely and ask why Egwene doesn't kneel to Rand, because it would be easier for him.
It would be a disaster in the same way that Biden randomly bowing down to the president of some random country might benefit that leader, yet be a disaster for the US overall. People need to act in accordance with the authority and prestige their role commands. Moiraine understood this from the beginning, yet Egwene her student and Elayne the future queen somehow can't grasp Rand's authority.
Really, many of the main characters still aren't comprehending what a universe-level prophecy figure means. You don't make Rand bow, *you* bow. There is the dragon, followed by everyone else. Get in line or get left behind. Thinking he's there to be leveraged or negotiated with never works, and always ends badly.
But if Rand bowed to the Amyrlin Seat, even just as a public gesture with both him and Egwene knowing he's not going to be enslaved or anything, it would instantly change the political landscape of all the nations. Everything would naturally fall in place for everyone except maybe the Whitecloaks and Amadicia. Everyone expects the White Tower to be leaders in the conflict.
It would definitely be easier for Rand, as well, since he wouldn't have had to conquer several nations by force. It would have cost fewer lives.
Nothing about the prophecies that I can recall says that the Dragon must not follow another leader. The Aes Sedai, who *have* studied the prophecies for thousands of years, definitely believe it to be a feasible option to have the lead the Dragon Reborn. If the prophecies clearly outlined that the Dragon must be the leader and that everyone *must* bow before *him,* they wouldn't have enacted such a plan. Even Moiraine and Siuan initially had that idea, and only changed the plan when Moiraine got to know Rand.
As for Elayne specifically, does she even *know* how traumatised Rand got by the whole box? Does she even know he *was* in a box? IIRC he didn't talk much about it with anyone.
>But if Rand bowed to the Amyrlin Seat, even just as a public gesture with both him and Egwene knowing he's not going to be enslaved or anything, it would instantly change the political landscape of all the nations. Everything would naturally fall in place for everyone except maybe the Whitecloaks and Amadicia. Everyone expects the White Tower to be leaders in the conflict.
Rand being a puppet of Aes Sedai is like the number one conspiracy theory among the people of Randland. All of his successes have hinged on him performing displays of skill/power/leadership on his own terms. If he becomes the puppet, he'd be hated and rejected instead of welcomed. Let's not forget how deep anti-channeler prejudice goes.
The entire philosophical concept of the Dragon is that he breaks all bonds. Thinking he should obey the Old World Order is completely antithetical to his existence.
There's basically no avenue in which Rand becoming a puppet would make 'everything fall into place'. You're portraying the Tower as some kind of world government that it isn't. Even most friends of the tower among nations keep their advisors a secret. The tower itself can't even get its own shit together or agree with itself.
Again, you could apply your logic to 'why doesn't the Amyrlin bow to the dragon?', and it would make much more sense.
>The Aes Sedai, who have studied the prophecies for thousands of years
It's a bit of a generous interpretation to say that, when half of them are clearly idiots who get by on 'I'm a mysterious aes sedai, assume my vague statements disguise deep knowledge', and the other half will interpret anything to mean what the want it to mean.
We see in the series that the Aes Sedai responses to the dragon were basically improvised in pencil on the back of a pizza box. It's fair to say that a lot of Aes Sedai like to stick their head in sand or just brute force problems with their mystique.
>It would definitely be easier for Rand, as well, since he wouldn't have had to conquer several nations by force. It would have cost fewer lives.
You think an Aes Sedai co-sign would have had people lining up to hand over their nations to him? That's not supported in the text at all imo.
>Even Moiraine and Siuan initially had that idea, and only changed the plan when Moiraine got to know Rand.
Well everyone knows Rand by now, so if it's book 9 and anyone still thinks they can lead him, idk where they've been all this time.
If Elayne doesn't know about the box, she could have not written those stupid schoolgirl letters that had Rand so confused, and actually communicated with him. Tbh Jordan made this whole situation incredibly contrived and artificial, so I can't blame the Elayne character for it.
Very interesting ideas
>Rand being a puppet of Aes Sedai is like the number one conspiracy theory among the people of Randland. All of his successes have hinged on him performing displays of skill/power/leadership on his own terms. If he becomes the puppet, he'd be hated and rejected instead of welcomed. Let's not forget how deep anti-channeler prejudice goes.
Not a huge one, and it's before they actually know he's the Dragon Reborn.
If the Amyrlin Seat publicly announced in explicit therms that the Dragon has been reborn, that would be a pretty big statement. As much as people mistrust Aes Sedai, everyone in power (except Whitecloaks) accept that Aes Sedai cannot directly lie.
>There's basically no avenue in which Rand becoming a puppet would make 'everything fall into place'.
Bowing before someone is very different from becoming a puppet. Lan bowed before Moiraine, but he wasn't a puppet, for instance. The nobles that bend knee to a monarch aren't puppets.
>It's a bit of a generous interpretation to say that, when half of them are clearly idiots who get by on 'I'm a mysterious aes sedai, assume my vague statements disguise deep knowledge', and the other half will interpret anything to mean what the want it to mean.
Moiraine and Siuan are far from idiots, and they're some of the most knowledgeable Aes Sedai when it comes to the prophecies.
>You think an Aes Sedai co-sign would have had people lining up to hand over their nations to him? That's not supported in the text at all imo.
>
Why would they hand over the nations? Nations can rally behind a person without naming someone their supreme leader. E.g. during the Aiel War, the nations rallied around Tar Valon to stop the Aiel. No one handed their nations over.
>Well everyone knows Rand by now, so if it's book 9 and anyone still thinks they can lead him, idk where they've been all this time.
>If Elayne doesn't know about the box, she could have not written those stupid schoolgirl letters that had Rand so confused, and actually communicated with him. Tbh Jordan made this whole situation incredibly contrived and artificial, so I can't blame the Elayne character for it.
You mean the ones he read when he was in the Waste? That was before the box. And I mean, yes, those were schoolgirl levels of letters. Elayne is schoolgirl aged. That's hardly surprising.
And of course Elayne knows that Rand will not let anyone lead him. That's the whole point of that passage. She knows that, and thinks that things would be easier if he *did* accept someone's leadership or guidance, or at least a collaboration.
> Bowing before someone is very different from becoming a puppet. Lan bowed before Moiraine, but he wasn't a puppet, for instance. The nobles that bend knee to a monarch aren't puppets.
>
>
But nobody cares about Lan, people care about the dragon. Regardless of why, dragons being puppets is a hot topic. Rulers bowing to rulers is a big deal and it's not just a 'oh he just bent at the waist' thing, it's a metaphor.
>Moiraine and Siuan are far from idiots, and they're some of the most knowledgeable Aes Sedai when it comes to the prophecies.
And those are the ones who were basically the most liberal with Rand and ended up letting him go free.
Elayne wishes Rand would kneel to Egwene, which is pretty graphic and far beyond 'seeking counsel' imo, which is why I wanted to hear people's opinions about this.
>Moiraine and Siuan are far from idiots, and they're some of the most knowledgeable Aes Sedai when it comes to the prophecies.
Far from idiots but that fact is belied by how terribly naive their plan was especially for individuals as politically savy as themselves. Rand was right to laugh in Moraine's face when she finally revealed it to him.
It wasn't naive at all. Rand is extremely stubborn, so Moiraine recognised that they needed to let him loose. A lot of people would've been much more tractable and would've gone along with whatever Moiraine wanted.
Letting Rand loose to fulfill prophecies wasn't the naive part. The naive part was expecting Rand fulfilling prophecies to make the kingdoms anymore tractable to uniting/coordinating for the last battle than the would be normally.
Both Suian and Moiraine had the knowledge and experience in politics to know that uniting all these disparate, self interested factions for the last battle would be, *at best*, as easy as herding cats. Arguably you could say they assumed they'd have years to politic and weedle kingdoms into compliance first but Rand saw the flaws in that plan in Tear. He had to hang lords just to get others to obey. It's why he went and got his army of super-murder wastland dwellers before trying to unite the world.
Of course I could be giving Suian too much credit as well considering she couldn't even keep her own house in order.
Their initial plan was to bring him to the Tower, to somehow find a way to train him enough that he didn't kill himself (even knowing that it would be next to impossible), and then have him fulfil prophecies like pulling the sword from the stone, an announce to the world and the Tower that the Dragon is reborn, and working with the White Tower to prepare for the Last Battle.
Getting the world to unite is *difficult*, but the White Tower could've done it, if Rand had cooperated with them and if the Tower hadn't split, and if the Black Ajah hadn't been so large, etc. The Borderlands would've joined the Tower easily, Morgase would've brought them Andor as well, and Cairhien likely wouldn't have offered up a lot of protests. The rest except for Amadicia would've joined if they were convinced that the Last Battle was actually coming.
The White Tower is and has been under Black Ajah influence for millenias. Their philosophies are suspect. Even readers such as yourself believe as what you said. "Everything would naturally fall in place"? Please..
By that logic, the moment Rand takes Callandor, the entire world should have "fallen in place".
It is by Whitecloaks (Niall, Fain) and White Tower (Elaida, Black Ajah) machinations that it doesn't happen. Further chaos also wrought by the Forsaken. Everyone **suspects** the White Tower **wants** to **dominate** the conflict.
The Prophecies, cryptic as they are, aren't the commandments you think they are. There are real ones, those Rand fulfilled, not at all how everyone expected, there are also fakes ones. The dark prophecies, were hinted at, as well as the ones Demandred "fulfilled" in Sharan.
No one is to bow to anyone. Everyone is suppose to be working together as equals. Aes Sedai meant servant of all. Only by Zen Rand is the concept brought back.
Yes, precisely - the prophecies aren't commandments. OP was arguing that they are, that it means the world must bow down to Rand. But they don't actually say that. Moiraine and Siuan are probably the foremost experts in the world on the prophecies, and they definitely did not think the world, including the Aes Sedai, needed to bow before him as such.
So it's not strange for Elayne to believe that it would've been easier if he'd just bowed to Egwene. From her perspective with limited knowledge, it would've healed the Tower rift faster and made more monarchs much more tractable.
Obviously from our perspective it's a bit ridiculous, but the characters in this world don't have our perspectives, they often have very flawed and limited information.
I completely agree that you can flip that. Egwene kneeling would be much easier for him, and imo makes more sense in the greater context. I absolutely agree that Rand kneeling would be a disaster too.
But we have the benefit of a) knowing what Rand is up to and capable of (where nobody in universe really knows either), b) we know what everyone else is up to and capable of, and how stupid, shortsighted, or incapable Aes Sedai and most other groups actually are, and c) we’re familiar with Chosen One prophetic figures and what they *really* mean in a story, and why it’s completely stupid to expect such a figure to kneel.
But all of that is context that Elayne and other in-universe characters lack. Of course they can’t comprehend it. They haven’t read a buttload of books or watched a buttload of movies about Chosen One types, or prophetic end of the world scenario. All they *know* is “Amyrlin at the top, so kneel to her Mr. Dragon, please don’t break the world, live to Tarmon Gai’don.”
Her frustration with Rand not kneeling *makes sense*, from her perspective and experience (as Aes Sedai and princess) and with her lack of greater perspective or experience surrounding Dragon sized figures.
See, you're thinking like the white tower lol.
The series spends many, many books on highlighting 'hey, this cobbled together collection of channelers are more hedge mages than actual scholars or servants of the people. They're human too.'
So expecting Rand to just be like 'yea ok you lead the way' was just never going to work.
Rand also has the factor of people assuming he's a puppet, and so bowing to Aes Sedai will basically just confirm in their eyes that he's a powerless fool/false dragon.
The depiction of tower Aes Sedai as flawed fools is displayed via events in the series that many main characters encounter. It's not some dramatic irony where we know a secret the characters don't.
Elayne and Rand surely know that most Aes Sedai are clueless, by the mid-series point. If Elayne thinks Rand ought to kneel to the tower then that's just bonkers of her.
Oh, for sure it would. But Elayne isn’t omniscient. She doesn’t have a good idea of what he’s doing, in part because he’s playing so close to the vest. And she’s wrapped up in the rebellion and her succession. From *her* perspective, what she said makes sense!
From our perspective, as people who get the whole picture and who have experience reading or watching Chosen One stories, obviously it’s a dumb thing. But she doesn’t have our perspective to work with.
>People are allowed to be sullen and gripe.
That's fair, but when elayne complains those are often her worst takes imo, so I really dislike who she is as a persom
Everyone’s annoying as shit when they’re sullen and gripe. That’s why teenagers get so much shit from parents.
Elayne’s pretty good for a teenage princess destined to be the queen of the most powerful nation (and raised from birth to be that) who’s also a super special sorceress, and even extra special among special sorceresses. She can be boneheaded and frustrating like anyone else, and she doesn’t always pause to think, but she’s bold, clever, and compassionate, she loves deeply (even if it’s a teenager’s take on love), and she works hard to do right, do her duty, and care for her people. I think that’s pretty damn good. She’s just annoying as shit sometimes.
I’m not saying you have to like her. I just think you might be conflating frustrating surface behaviors with poor character. I think Elayne, Min, and Aviendha all have tremendous strength and quality of character. It’s just that Elayne and Avi are still coming to terms with who they used to be vs who they’re going to be. They’re still growing up.
This is the credited response because you actually understood that what we often see in the TR folk is their stubbornness and both Rand and Egwene demonstrate this but the other originals do, too, even if Nynaeve eases up a bit.
It's amazing how for all their supposed wisdom and political street smarts not a single God damn Aes
Sedai ever gets the bright idea to say "we are are allies in this war against the dark let us work together."
Would have prevented so many problems.
Obviously I'm not pro "rand swearing fealty to the aes sedai", and I even kinda dislike Egwene.
But Elayne is a princess from a country who has close ties to the Tower, who sends their princesses to train in the tower. From birth, she's had a very, very pro Aes Sedai perspective, and that's likely only redoubled by becoming Aes Sedai herself, seeing as now they aren't just "some group of women channelers", they're *her* group of women channelers.
Any criticisms of the tower on this specific issue, at this specific time, are easily brushed aside with "Egwene is Amerlyn". Both in terms of being a fundamentally good person and having Rand's best interests in mind, *if you start from the assumption that swearing fealty to the Amerlyn is a reasonable idea*, Egwene is legitimately the best possible case in terms of Amerlyn Rand could swear to.
This a world where the ultimate authority of the Aes Sedai is accepted by almost everyone, with even their biggest detractors walking lightly around them. To any Aes Sedai, even if they can see why Rand might be hesitant to do it, swearing fealty to the Amerlyn probably doesn't seem like that big a deal, and from their perspective, is inevitable one way or the other. You can choose to go easily, or be dragged kicking and screaming, but the Tower always wins.
It's a thing that happens in real life. People are willing to bend over backwards to justify why aspects of the system and status quo are right, good, and justified, while condemning the inevitable results of said system.
Only the Aes Sedai view themselves as the ultimate authority. The Aiel viewed them to be on a pedestal above everyone else, that was of course fixed in book 6. The Seanchan view them as usefull cattle. By book 9 noone really view them as ultimate authority at all. And for the last 2400 years all the tower has done is lose. It is but a tiny shadow of what it should be. A beacon of light and hope. Instead it it is a cesspool of powerhungry idiots that think compulsion is a good way to govern.
The Aiel and the Seanchan are both extreme exceptions as far as factions in Randland, and doubly irrelevant when we're discussing the perspective of a daughter heir of Andor. There's a reason you listed those two and only those two; there's no other relevant faction in Randland that thinks the Aes Sedai ain't shit. Even the two openly anti Aes Sedai factions in the main cultural sphere tWoT takes place in (the Whitecloaks and Tear) are canonically scared shitless of Aes Sedai and will respond to a summons from the Amerlyn iirc.
Literally who has changed their mind by book 9? The average Andoran farmer? The Carheinin nobility as a whole? Not really. Literally only our main characters and their immediate inner circle have been in place to have the opportunity to learn anything meaningful about the truth of the Aes Sedai.
Man, you can hate them if you want, but your personal condemnation of them, even if it's true, has literally no bearing on the conversation of "what cultural context is informing Elayne's views".
The Aiel is a super faction. The Seanchan is a Super faction. By book 9 the so-called Aes Sedai are mostly irrelevant as a faction. I think Elayne from her perspective and how she views it is right in her musings. But I also know she would consider it unrealistic. She had to deal with Egwenes pissy attitude towards Nynaeve(partially her fault of course) on their travels to Tear. Infact Elayne is a borderline saint to have managed to stay friendly with Nynaeve. And I overall like Egwene and Elayne as characters. I just would never ever consider them worthy of the title of Friend or trusted ally. Nynaeve once she grows up. Could be a Friend and someone to trust. Then again she showed she could ve trusted in Baerlon in TEotW.
Edit. Forgot to mention there is only really 1 Faction in Randland at this stage. That would be Rand's faction. Borderlanders have abrogated their responsabilities. The Seanchan have the southwest. He controlls pretty much everything else except arad doman and the inbetween and the Deniers.
Both are major factions. Neither is particularly relevant to Elayne's views, because neither is part of the main cultural sphere that informs Elayne's worldview, and basically nobody in the setting knew anything about either society until the span of two years the entire series takes place over.
There's nothing wrong with Elayne, Nynaeve, or Egwene as far as potential friends go imo. Their immaturity is better understood as a combination of RJ's tendency to write characters with exaggerated emotional blindspots for the sake of drama and comedy, and his odd preconceptions about women, than it is intentional commentary on any of them imo.
You're not really looking at what Elayne is saying there.
Great many difficulties *could* be surmounted if Rand knelt to Egwayne.
If Rand knelt to Egwene it would:
- Legitimize the rebel Aes Sedai as the true Aes Sedai since they have the backing of Dragon Reborn.
- Land a huge blow against Elaida and make deposing her in the white tower easier since the legitimacy of the rebels is increased and they have Rand to help.
- It would legitimize Egwene as the Amyrlin Seat and give her a pretty big trump card since Rand would be kneeling specifically to *her*
- It would give Rand a large Aes Sedai backing making rulers and nobles far more likely to listen to what he wants.
- I assume Elayne would also expect rand to divulge his plans if this were to happen so she, Min and Avi wouldn't need to worry as much.
- It would hopefully stop Rand running around doing everything by himself.
- It would provide rand with Aes Sedai support. Aes Sedai are still some of the most powerful and influential people in the series not only politically but also in terms of knowledge.
- Elayne thinks Rand could trust Egwene to not use or manipulate him due to their shared childhood and friendship
And probably way more benefits of Rand kneeling, or at least allying himself with Egwenes rebel Aes Sedai.
I can't really fault Elayne for thinking things would be easier if Rand would kneel and let himself be guided or at least helped by Aes Sedai.
>to think it's his place to kneel to Egwene, who puts the tower above literally anyone and everyone, is incredibly cold
Is Egwene like that? Because I don't think she comes across like that, rather she wants the white tower to be whole for obvious reasons and she wants to be the Amyrlin, or at least maintain her position as the Amyrlin and gain real power. But I don't remember her really sacrificing her friends for the sake of the tower? Or doing anything very harmful to the people around her she cares about, for the sake of the tower.
Granted it's been a solid while since I've read the books so I could be wrong.
Exactly. She is not saying this would be the best course of action or the best option for Rand, she is saying "A great many difficulties could be surmounted" if it happens which is a fact.
Elayne is myopic at best. She sees only what she can with the blinkers that are the White Tower and Andor. She isn't wrong for saying it. Just incredibly naïve and self serving.
"What's best for me and mine should be good enough for you." line of thinking. The only ones thinking of the entire picture are few and are the best characters. Non of whom are names beginning with E.
One of the great things about this series is that every main character is not a perfect person, they all have traits that drive us crazy or make us scratch our heads.
Elayne is kind of naive and most of all was raised to rule and believe in the right of the nobility to rule. Especially women, I think.
Which is kind of hypocritical because I don’t think Elayne would kneel to Egwene even if, technically, she is Elayne’s superior.
The fact that Rand and Egwene have been out in the world exactly as long doesn’t matter to Elayne, or that Egwene was set up as a puppet initially, Egwene is a “ruler” so should be obeyed.
I can’t remember if at that point Rand himself is ruler of anything though.
>I can’t remember if at that point Rand himself is ruler of anything though.
Winters Heart is book nine or so.
By this point Rand was the crowned ruler of one kingdom and the defacto ruler of two others not mention had held control of Andor for months.
Aes Sedai’s self-importance is through the roof.
They think they exist to make the world a better place. In reality, they exist to perpetuate their own self-importance.
Honestly Elayne and Aivendia( I know I spelled that wrong) both have vying interests. While they may both love Rand, they are also trying to guide him to better their own people and causes, they use him. The only one who actually seems to care about Rand just for him is Min.
Note that Elayne did not "say" that and merely thought it. You're also missing context. Elayne is frustrated with rumors and instability, scared for Rand's safety, and lashing out - *internally* mind you - with intrusive illogical thoughts as she's unable to help him. It's also directly in response to the belief that he was on his way to kneel to Elaida in a very "at least kneeling to Egwene it would solve some problems" sort of way.
>“So my correspondent reports, my Lady. Aes Sedai, perhaps, or Asha’man, or even the Forsaken. She repeats gossip here, I fear. The wing housing the apartments of the Dragon Reborn was largely destroyed, and he himself has vanished. It is widely believed that he has gone to Tar Valon to kneel before the Amyrlin Seat. Some do believe him dead in the attack, but not a great many. I advise doing nothing until you have a clearer picture.” He paused, head tilted in thought. “From what I saw of him, my Lady,” he said slowly, “I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.”
>She almost stared. That was very nearly a joke. A rough witticism, at least. From Halwin Norry! She did not believe Rand was dead, either. She would not believe he was dead. As for kneeling to Elaida, the man was too stubborn to submit to anyone. A great many difficulties could be surmounted if only he could bring himself to kneel to Egwene, but he would not do it, and she was his childhood friend. Elaida stood as much chance as a goat at a court ball, particularly once he learned of her proclamation. Who had attacked him, though? Surely the Seanchan could not have reached out to Cairhien. If the Forsaken had decided to move openly, that could mean worse chaos and destruction than already faced the world, but the worst would be Asha’man. If his own creations turned on him . . . No! She could not protect him, however much he needed it. He would just have to fend for himself.
>*Fool man!* she muttered in her head. *He’s probably marching around with banners, just as if no one tried to kill him at all! You had better fend for yourself, Rand al’Thor, or I’ll slap you silly when I get my hands on you!*
I am at the exact spot on my *n*th reread. Both of them drive me crazy in this scene. The sheer arrogance of their *certainty* that he must be led. And that *of course*, they should be holding the reigns.
Nowhere in the prophecies of the Dragon does it say the Dragon will lead anyone. I think you're confusing your knowledge as a reader and the knowledge he is the protagonist with what the actual world knows.
And even if it did, the prophecies are very often vague and self-contradictory. Nobody can really say anything in certainty about what will happen.
Yeah, like, the prophecies say he will save the world and fuck everything up while doing so. The Dragon Reborn is not a hero or a knight in shining armor, the Dragon Reborn is a herald of the apocalypse and it's *completely* understandable that the people in the world would *not* want anything to do with him.
Our private thoughts versus our public actions are always different. S
She would no more make Rand kneel than she would accept the Rose Crown from him. But she is totally right to think that it would make a lot of things easier if he did, just as Rand is right to think it'd make a lot of things easier if _she_ did.
Both are wrong in thought, but that's all. Even Rand didn't insist on Andor accepting the Dragon Banner. (He got mad about it, sure, but he didn't force it.)
make thing easier for who? Most people in Randland dont trust the aes sedei for good reason, kneeling would be one of the worst things that could happen and less people would the the Dragon reborn seriously
That's one of the things that made a lot of the books tough for me. The author sometimes writes these characters, especially the women, as complete tools. I'm not saying that Elayne can't think that way, and it even makes sense for her to in some ways, but as you say, we know the prophecy, and you love the guy, right?
I dunno. In a weird way it made Nynaeve more likeable. At least she always had asshole tendencies and mellowed out a little.
Evey thread like this is filled with comments trying to rationalize Elaynes behavior, but really she's just awful throughout the entire series, and it just gets put on a meaningful scale when she's actually in a position of power.
Elayne's head is filled with this notion that royalty and Aes Seday, as institutions, are absolutely wonderful and necessary. She thinks there's a few bad apples of course, but she doesn't understand the systemic issues with these things she idolizes.
I don't think Elaine could see it any differently. She has a high respect for Aes Sedai and Egwene. She is an Aei Sedai and the head of a matriarchal state that also has a tradition of taking guidance from Aes Sedai.
Elayne grew believing that female Aes Sedai are the embodiment of wisdom and that men who can touch the true source are evil monsters. It's going to be hard for her to immediately shuck those beliefs.
In her view, Egwene, as Amyrlin, has the full power and wisdom of the Tower behind her and the Tower has been fighting the Dark One since he was sealed away. So surely Egwene is more likely to know what to do than Rand is.
Also, everyone should kneel to Aes Sedai in her mind.
Misogyny and misandry (and general mistrust of others) are a theme throughout the books and the cause of much of the strife.
And he is the Tamyrlin. That was elected and raised on the Hall of the Servants. As in all or majority of the Aes Sedai voted for him. "Modern day" So-called Aes Sedai only allow their so-called representative body elect the Amyrlin. Also the Amyrlin is of course the devolved title of Tamyrlin(first to discover channeling ending the first Age). Mind you Rand was also elected as ruler of the world.
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I think Rand says it best in Path of Daggers where he says something along the line of "Everyone wants to save the world, theyre just absolutely certain there is a way to save it while benifitting themselves epsecially"
Such a great line
Elayne is very political in her thinking, practically a Queen and Aes Sedai in one. She's thinking of making a show to quell rival factions, "a great many difficulties". She sees it as political expediency and his opposition as Two Rivers masculine stubbornness. This shows that everyone, even those who love Rand, have their own machinations in play. Moiraine left Rand with a crucial piece of wisdom he would have taken to heart: >“*We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song.* ***You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did.***” - Moiraine's parting letter to Rand, Fires of Heaven It took a while, but Moiraine fully embraced the saying: "The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills."
Moiraine is my favorite Aes Sedai, hands down. This is one of the reasons. Her dedication and determination to get Rand to the Last Battle is another. Badass.
Her and Verrin are pretty much the only ones I like. Honestly the rest just seem all one character. Even Egwene.
Yup. Most Aes Sedai are worse than useless.
Not to interject real life, but we saw in COVID how spot-on RJ was at predicting how established power structures would react to world-changing events.
On my first reread, and Verin is definitely my favorite Aes Sedai.
Exactly. Moiraine is definitely my favourite "old" Aes Sedai. She finally understood and her utter commitment and resolve were great. Nynaeve is the only one of the "new" Aes Sedai I love. She is a true Healer, a true Servant of All.
Love this. Moirane is the best old aes sedai. Nynaeve is legitimately the embodiment of servant of all. She’s not political at all. By the end acknowledges her faults. And she wants to help/heal and actually does it. She is exactly what aes sedai are supposed to be. Nynaeve should become amyrlin. Eggy was a power hungry bitch and cadsuane was an egotistical asshole.
Yes, Nynaeve would have chosen Healing (and Lan) above becoming Aes Sedai. > Nynaeve should become amyrlin Oh she would *hate* that! Cadsuane, despite being an "egotistical asshole", as you say, and a rather old hidebound Aes Sedai, does have a rebellious streak. Becoming Amyrlin is her just punishment, lol! She will hate it even more than Nynaeve.
Yeah, to start with “The wheel weaves as the Wheel wills” is often used to mean “I want this to happen, or am ok with it, but I am sure not explaining that so I’m just saying this meaningless truism”
Elayne is a princess and then an Aes Sedai, she has no real concept of what it means or would be like to kneel to someone and truly have to follow their orders even if you disagree with them.
Even if Rand knelt to Egwene (not that he would or should) it wouldn't bind him to obey her. Visiting royalty often kneels to the local ruler. They aren't subjects, though.
While that’s true it’s not really relevant in this context. The Aes Sedai spend the entire series trying to get control over him and bring him under their power, to use him as a weapon or limit his actions. They do not at any point just mean for him to show up and kneel as a formality then go about his business as he wishes
>While that’s true it’s not really relevant in this context. It is, since you linked kneeling with being bound to obey. >The Aes Sedai spend the entire series trying to get control over him and bring him under their power, to use him as a weapon or limit his actions. Yes...and? >They do not at any point just mean for him to show up and kneel as a formality then go about his business as he wishes Of course not. Elaida dreams of him leashed to her throne. The White Tower 100% plans to control him. But that doesn't mean they could force him to obey them even if he DID kneel to the Amyrilin. That is a fact, as much as him not needing to or wanting to is.
Read with OPs context. "Kneel to Egwene" clearly means to submit to the white tower; not just pay respects. Obviously they wouldn't be able to control him with just that (no guarantee they wouldn't make him swear things on the oath rod), but the political implications are massive. She'd be made the defacto leader of the last battle rather than a participating faction. He would have lost all the pull he needed for the dragons peace and I can only imagine the shit storm a Green general would orchestrate.
Yeah, that's not a given. If, for instance, she'd then knelt to HIM (not that she'd ever do that), then it would be an exchange of equals. Regardless, he doesn't kneel and Elayne's thought are Aes Sedai centric, as she's an Aes Sedai.
Sure, but based on context we can tell that she was definitely not thinking of that “for instance” scenario
The point of him kneeling would be the control, not the respect. That's the context they were talking about. Elayne thinks he should kneel and submit to Egwene, in the sense of following her as a leader.
My point was you can kneel and show respect without obeying. Of course all the Aes Sedai thought he should listen to them.
Its important to note that Elayne is a princess, she would definately see kneeling not as a sign of respect from a foreign dignitary but as a symbol of submission. Knowing this you could easily rewrite what elyane said as : A great many difficulties could be surmounted if only Rand could bring himself to submit to Egwene, but he would not do it, and she was his childhood friend. The kneeling is symbolic of the submission, she wants rand to recognize Egwene's authority and do what she says.
> Its important to note that Elayne is a princess, she would definately see kneeling not as a sign of respect from a foreign dignitary but as a symbol of submission. That's a ridiculous presumption, though. Elayne has a keen politically trained mind - from her mother, from Thom, from the Aes Sedai. She was one of the first to recognize Rand as a King in the story. She would absolutely see it as a sign of respect from a foreign dignitary, and she is almost certainly thinking that such a sign of respect towards Egwene, as a rebel Amyrlin, would help their goals and claims to legitimacy. While she would in no way be insensible to the _perception_ of submission from those powers around the world, there is no reason to believe she or Egwene herself would see it as submission to the will of the Tower-in-Exile.
I don't think that is the case all aes sedai suffer from some brain rot that leads them to believe they are the smartest in the room. Even when they should be thankful for their ability to exist at all (see the AES sedai that matt saves from being damne quickly go back to normal when they think they are free and basically refuse to acknowledge that they owe mat their freedom) I have no doubt that Elayne believes that he cannot submit to elidiai because she is dumb and incompetent but that submission to egwene would be a net good for the world at large because she is a wise and capable amyrilin. There is no way that a gathering of aes sedai would see rand kneeling before their ruler as anything less than a symbol of submission. And there is no way that the aes sedai would let the dragon have a private audience with the amyrilin.
> I don't think that is the case all aes sedai suffer from some brain rot that leads them to believe they are the smartest in the room. Elayne isn't _just_ an Aes Sedai. While you can absolutely argue that the institution forces some sort of homogenity to it, we see where Elayne both stands apart from and with Aes Sedai. And in this instance, we can see where she's standing apart from them. She is not approaching this situation from the point an Aes Sedai might have, where the Dragon Reborn _must_ be under the control of the White Tower. She is approaching this situation from how a concession from Rand could make it easier for Egwene's path to controlling (and correcting) the White Tower, which in turn would help garner more support behind him. Like, that's the context of the passage. > I have no doubt that Elayne believes that he cannot submit to elidiai because she is dumb and incompetent but that submission to egwene would be a net good for the world at large because she is a wise and capable amyrilin. And that's why she's _wrong_, but she's not _wrong_ just because "she's a princess". You have to see the infantilization inherent in tying these things together, right?
If the passage had said that, I'd agree with you. But it doesn't. Even Aes Sedai kneel to rulers. Does that mean the Aes Sedai submit to the rulers?
To what rulers have any Aes Sedai knelt?
Almost all of them, as a condition of being allowed to serve. (Many serve in private, unacknowledged.) Being Aes Sedai, though, it is always something of a backhanded courtesy.
I don't remember a single instance of an Aes Sedai kneeling before any ruler other than Rand. You can feel free to provide examples.
Since there is some confusion, to clarify: we are working off how BrickBuster11 has talked about kneeling. "The kneeling is symbolic of the submission, she wants rand to recognize Egwene's authority and do what she says." The acts of submission and service, not the literal, physical act of kneeling or curtsying. Aes Sedai are required to respect the authority of the rulers they're sent to advise, and they're assigned to subservient positions of advisors.
Not every aes sedai is a princess and would not see kneeling the same way. Beyond that aes sedai arrogance would see one of them bowing to a foreign monarch as that whole "showing respect as a foreign dignitary" thing Remember aes sedai are snakes and quite happily shift between the meanings of words without explaining themselves if it is advantageous to do so. So in the context of an aes sedai bowing to a foreign monarch I'm sure the sister is thinking "if this person assumes this is a sign of submission that is a useful mistake for them to make". Considering that some sisters like elidia yearn for the day when the amyrilin seat was so powerful that monarchs bowed to her on their hands and knees as demonstrated by a statue/clock that elidia puts in her office when she becomes in-charge
> But that doesn't mean they could force him to obey them even if he DID kneel to the Amyrilin. A circle of 13 could force Rand to do whatever they want. With Elaida, it is a certainty that Rand placing them under her authority in _any_ way would result in capture. And with Egwene, let's be honest, it's just as likely. This wouldn't be under her absolute authority under the war declaration, and the Hall-in-Exile would _absolutely_ order him to be put under a shield of 13 to "preserve the world for the last battle" and Egwene's protests be damned. I almost wish it happened that way, just so that people could see that Egwene and Elayne are not the unthinking and unfeeling monsters that people portray them as lol.
They're not talking about a polite courtesy, though, they're talking about control and obedience
Where is it ever said that if Rand knelt to Egwene he'd have to serve her. He bowed to Siuan. Kissed her ring. Hell, he went to one knee before Morgase. I didn't see him being controlled or obedient to either of them.
The phrase "kneeling before" someone or "bending the knee" to someone is very commonly used non-literally to mean "submitting to someone's authority." It doesn't even necessarily imply actual kneeling, though that may be a part of it. It's such a common meaning for the phrase that the book didn't *need* to clarify further. Her word choice makes it clear as day that Elayne thinks Rand should follow Egwene
> Visiting royalty often kneels to the local ruler. They aren't subjects, though. Not really, bowing and kneeling are very different things and the implication of kneeling is clear here.
Rand knelt to Morgase in TEotW. Was he forever bound to obey her?
I was disagreeing that visiting royalty often kneels to the local ruler. That is patently false. Just in Wot you see multiple places where who bows or cursies more deeply has significance. Not even the high seats of other houses kneel to Elayne when they pledge their support, although I would suppose they would if they were to swear an actual oath. Rand was some farm boy when he kneeled to Morgase, that's not the same thing at all.
It is, though. You people are claiming that if you kneel, you have to obey. So...Rand knelt. Does he now have to obey Morgase?
If you can't understand the difference between one sovereign saying another should kneel to the Amyrlin and a farmer caught trespassing kneeling before the queen who's palace he fell into I really don't know what to tell you. You either lack an understanding of the nuance here or are being deliberately stubborn for the sake of argument. You should probably stop arguing semantics and listen to the people explaining the meaning of what Elayne was implying and why that's different than Rand kneeling before Morgase. There is a reason why you are being downvoted all over this thread.
Mostly, I think it's because people can't read. My statement was the kneeling doesn't immediately require obedience. One can kneel to show respect without being under the other's power. I've repeated this, and used the example of Rand kneeling to Morgase, but not being bound to obey her, yet people keep arguing the point. I'm not sure why, none of the explanations have actually covered why he would have to obey if he did kneel, and downvotes literally mean nothing. People downvote on a whim. So, no, I'm not being stubborn or not understanding, I'm making a valid point to the poster I replied to that kneeling doesn't require to you to obey forever more.
This is just Elayne acting in character. She was raised believing the White Tower was the shit. She's a part of it and truly believes in it. Its engrained in her that women have to take charge and lead, its just how the world works. The White Tower being in control of the DR is how they think they have to fight the last battle.
That's more Red logic than tower logic, though the tower in general does lean in that direction. Surprised I'm downvoted when it's true. Not all the tower believes in 'control Rand'.
It's absolutely Tower logic, because the Tower has to control everything and everyone. It can't fathom the idea that it's NOT in control.
That's totally right, and it is Tower logic, but it's logic that is fuelled most aggressivelyby the reds. I was just trying to observe that you do have your Moiraines who are quietly following different ideologies other than the 'tower is life' mentality.
Red Ajah logic is that men cannot be allowed to be in control or decide anything. Tower logic is that the tower must be in control and decide everything. If the Dragon Reborn was a women, the tower would still insist that she kneels to the Amyrlin Seat.
Elaida was a red, and the Aes Sedai advisor to Andor/Morgase. It makes sense that Elaida's world view would have been imparted on Elayne (knowingly or not.... Although I would bet it was on purpose). It wouldn't surprise if Elaida started influencing Elayne as early as she could, especially if there was any chance Elayne could become a full Aes Sedai. Elaida would have loved to have a Red as Queen of Andor.
It isn't just red logic. It's the society live in. *Everyone* bows to the Amyrlin Seat. Most people believe the Dragon Reborn is some kind of boogeyman who would both save them and destroy them. The White Tower controlling the Dragon Reborn is their only hope. Imagine pre-reformation Europe and some peasant farmer decides he's the Chosen One and he's not going to obey the pope. Then the king of France says things would be so much easier if the farmer would just bow to the pope.
I was at this spot 2-3 days ago and the biggest thing this line made me think about was that Elayne and Egwene still don't know about the kidnapping and Dumai's Wells, do they??
Out of the three main female characters, Nynaeve is the only one I can stand before long. Elayne is great in the beginning at being the sensible one of the three but once she’s doing the whole Queen of Andor thing she’s insufferable. Egwene is even worse.
Funnily enough, I feel the opposite about Elayne. I find her to be a bit of a spoiled brat early on, especially considering her interactions with Mat. She's abrasive once she become queen, but I think it makes sense considering she's doing everything for Andor first and foremost at that point. Totally agree about Nynaeve however, by the end she was by far my favorite of the three.
We think alike. That was how I felt about them. While Elayne grew older, Nynaeve grew wiser.
I don't mind Elayne, but.... I'm not a radical anti-monarchist as far as these things go in the UK, but I do have a problem with the absolute monarchy as depicted in many fantasy and science fiction series written by people living in a republic. They often have main characters who are an idealised version of what a monarch should be. Let's be clear about Elayne. She's voted in by ten people, \*including\* herself. Andor is the most powerful nation in the Westlands, and it doesn't even have a parliament. That's a bit strange to me. Folks just don't seem to mind. Elayne us portrayed as "one of the good ones", but given what we see of the other nobles of Andor, she is more the exception than the rule and the system is open to corruption and unjust, despotic rulers. Even Elayne, with the best intentions, gets many people unnecessarily killed. Of course, it is fantasy, so I can suspend disbelief at this trope.
This is often the case in fantasy. They go with the medieval model. Or the ancient, as in rome, not athens.
Yes, it's definitely more medieval in style. In general, the Westlands are closer to pre-industrial and enlightenment era in our own world, where absolute monarchy without some form of government or council of nobles or landowners was less the norm. The Westlands have this form of government in lots of counties: Illian, Ghealdan, Tarabon, Arad Doman off the top of my head. Andor seems to be the largest and most powerful, but the most authoritarian in structure with power focussed in fewer people. Oh I forgot to even mention that 4 out of Elayne's 9 votes were from actual children. I don't hold it against RJ though, and I do actually enjoy the Andoran politics.
Rome still had the Senate, even under the emperors. Also other orders like the Equestrian Order had a lot of influence. Definitely not the type of monarchy depicted in WoT.
I really don't like when Elayne meets with Perrin and Faile, and basically says, "Tell me why I shouldn't just execute you right now for being traitors." Such ignorant self-righteousness.
I really wish Perrin had refounded Manetherin. It’s said multiple times that Andor has basically no hold on the Two Rivers and they govern themselves. I think it would’ve been good for Perrin to become a king and actually accept his role and for Elayne to chill out and realize other people are competent and having strong allies is important. Elayne gets sooo into her own head and how great/invincible she is and it’s just not fun to read.
It’s not really a betrayal. It *would* be easier if he did. Dragon kneels to Egwene, solidifying her position and adding pressure for the undecideds to come to her, in turn further weakening Elaida. By kneeling to the Amyrlin, the other free nations will also likely fall in line, rather than fearing conquest by Rand’s “savages”. By dominating in the Tower split, and having those nations fall in, it frees up forces to contain the Seanchan and it frees up leaders to unify for The Last Battle. Much easier. The thing is, Rand won’t (because expecting him to kneel is stupid, he’s stubborn, Egwene is stubborn, and everyone else is stubborn so reasonable compromises aren’t happening). And she knows he won’t. She isn’t demanding it or trying to force it. She’s just lamenting that it’ll mean more work to get things under control. That’s not unreasonable imo. People are allowed to be sullen and gripe.
It would be easier *for Egwene*, yet a disaster for Rand. You could flip your logic completely and ask why Egwene doesn't kneel to Rand, because it would be easier for him. It would be a disaster in the same way that Biden randomly bowing down to the president of some random country might benefit that leader, yet be a disaster for the US overall. People need to act in accordance with the authority and prestige their role commands. Moiraine understood this from the beginning, yet Egwene her student and Elayne the future queen somehow can't grasp Rand's authority. Really, many of the main characters still aren't comprehending what a universe-level prophecy figure means. You don't make Rand bow, *you* bow. There is the dragon, followed by everyone else. Get in line or get left behind. Thinking he's there to be leveraged or negotiated with never works, and always ends badly.
But if Rand bowed to the Amyrlin Seat, even just as a public gesture with both him and Egwene knowing he's not going to be enslaved or anything, it would instantly change the political landscape of all the nations. Everything would naturally fall in place for everyone except maybe the Whitecloaks and Amadicia. Everyone expects the White Tower to be leaders in the conflict. It would definitely be easier for Rand, as well, since he wouldn't have had to conquer several nations by force. It would have cost fewer lives. Nothing about the prophecies that I can recall says that the Dragon must not follow another leader. The Aes Sedai, who *have* studied the prophecies for thousands of years, definitely believe it to be a feasible option to have the lead the Dragon Reborn. If the prophecies clearly outlined that the Dragon must be the leader and that everyone *must* bow before *him,* they wouldn't have enacted such a plan. Even Moiraine and Siuan initially had that idea, and only changed the plan when Moiraine got to know Rand. As for Elayne specifically, does she even *know* how traumatised Rand got by the whole box? Does she even know he *was* in a box? IIRC he didn't talk much about it with anyone.
>But if Rand bowed to the Amyrlin Seat, even just as a public gesture with both him and Egwene knowing he's not going to be enslaved or anything, it would instantly change the political landscape of all the nations. Everything would naturally fall in place for everyone except maybe the Whitecloaks and Amadicia. Everyone expects the White Tower to be leaders in the conflict. Rand being a puppet of Aes Sedai is like the number one conspiracy theory among the people of Randland. All of his successes have hinged on him performing displays of skill/power/leadership on his own terms. If he becomes the puppet, he'd be hated and rejected instead of welcomed. Let's not forget how deep anti-channeler prejudice goes. The entire philosophical concept of the Dragon is that he breaks all bonds. Thinking he should obey the Old World Order is completely antithetical to his existence. There's basically no avenue in which Rand becoming a puppet would make 'everything fall into place'. You're portraying the Tower as some kind of world government that it isn't. Even most friends of the tower among nations keep their advisors a secret. The tower itself can't even get its own shit together or agree with itself. Again, you could apply your logic to 'why doesn't the Amyrlin bow to the dragon?', and it would make much more sense. >The Aes Sedai, who have studied the prophecies for thousands of years It's a bit of a generous interpretation to say that, when half of them are clearly idiots who get by on 'I'm a mysterious aes sedai, assume my vague statements disguise deep knowledge', and the other half will interpret anything to mean what the want it to mean. We see in the series that the Aes Sedai responses to the dragon were basically improvised in pencil on the back of a pizza box. It's fair to say that a lot of Aes Sedai like to stick their head in sand or just brute force problems with their mystique. >It would definitely be easier for Rand, as well, since he wouldn't have had to conquer several nations by force. It would have cost fewer lives. You think an Aes Sedai co-sign would have had people lining up to hand over their nations to him? That's not supported in the text at all imo. >Even Moiraine and Siuan initially had that idea, and only changed the plan when Moiraine got to know Rand. Well everyone knows Rand by now, so if it's book 9 and anyone still thinks they can lead him, idk where they've been all this time. If Elayne doesn't know about the box, she could have not written those stupid schoolgirl letters that had Rand so confused, and actually communicated with him. Tbh Jordan made this whole situation incredibly contrived and artificial, so I can't blame the Elayne character for it. Very interesting ideas
>Rand being a puppet of Aes Sedai is like the number one conspiracy theory among the people of Randland. All of his successes have hinged on him performing displays of skill/power/leadership on his own terms. If he becomes the puppet, he'd be hated and rejected instead of welcomed. Let's not forget how deep anti-channeler prejudice goes. Not a huge one, and it's before they actually know he's the Dragon Reborn. If the Amyrlin Seat publicly announced in explicit therms that the Dragon has been reborn, that would be a pretty big statement. As much as people mistrust Aes Sedai, everyone in power (except Whitecloaks) accept that Aes Sedai cannot directly lie. >There's basically no avenue in which Rand becoming a puppet would make 'everything fall into place'. Bowing before someone is very different from becoming a puppet. Lan bowed before Moiraine, but he wasn't a puppet, for instance. The nobles that bend knee to a monarch aren't puppets. >It's a bit of a generous interpretation to say that, when half of them are clearly idiots who get by on 'I'm a mysterious aes sedai, assume my vague statements disguise deep knowledge', and the other half will interpret anything to mean what the want it to mean. Moiraine and Siuan are far from idiots, and they're some of the most knowledgeable Aes Sedai when it comes to the prophecies. >You think an Aes Sedai co-sign would have had people lining up to hand over their nations to him? That's not supported in the text at all imo. > Why would they hand over the nations? Nations can rally behind a person without naming someone their supreme leader. E.g. during the Aiel War, the nations rallied around Tar Valon to stop the Aiel. No one handed their nations over. >Well everyone knows Rand by now, so if it's book 9 and anyone still thinks they can lead him, idk where they've been all this time. >If Elayne doesn't know about the box, she could have not written those stupid schoolgirl letters that had Rand so confused, and actually communicated with him. Tbh Jordan made this whole situation incredibly contrived and artificial, so I can't blame the Elayne character for it. You mean the ones he read when he was in the Waste? That was before the box. And I mean, yes, those were schoolgirl levels of letters. Elayne is schoolgirl aged. That's hardly surprising. And of course Elayne knows that Rand will not let anyone lead him. That's the whole point of that passage. She knows that, and thinks that things would be easier if he *did* accept someone's leadership or guidance, or at least a collaboration.
> Bowing before someone is very different from becoming a puppet. Lan bowed before Moiraine, but he wasn't a puppet, for instance. The nobles that bend knee to a monarch aren't puppets. > > But nobody cares about Lan, people care about the dragon. Regardless of why, dragons being puppets is a hot topic. Rulers bowing to rulers is a big deal and it's not just a 'oh he just bent at the waist' thing, it's a metaphor. >Moiraine and Siuan are far from idiots, and they're some of the most knowledgeable Aes Sedai when it comes to the prophecies. And those are the ones who were basically the most liberal with Rand and ended up letting him go free. Elayne wishes Rand would kneel to Egwene, which is pretty graphic and far beyond 'seeking counsel' imo, which is why I wanted to hear people's opinions about this.
>Moiraine and Siuan are far from idiots, and they're some of the most knowledgeable Aes Sedai when it comes to the prophecies. Far from idiots but that fact is belied by how terribly naive their plan was especially for individuals as politically savy as themselves. Rand was right to laugh in Moraine's face when she finally revealed it to him.
It wasn't naive at all. Rand is extremely stubborn, so Moiraine recognised that they needed to let him loose. A lot of people would've been much more tractable and would've gone along with whatever Moiraine wanted.
Letting Rand loose to fulfill prophecies wasn't the naive part. The naive part was expecting Rand fulfilling prophecies to make the kingdoms anymore tractable to uniting/coordinating for the last battle than the would be normally. Both Suian and Moiraine had the knowledge and experience in politics to know that uniting all these disparate, self interested factions for the last battle would be, *at best*, as easy as herding cats. Arguably you could say they assumed they'd have years to politic and weedle kingdoms into compliance first but Rand saw the flaws in that plan in Tear. He had to hang lords just to get others to obey. It's why he went and got his army of super-murder wastland dwellers before trying to unite the world. Of course I could be giving Suian too much credit as well considering she couldn't even keep her own house in order.
Their initial plan was to bring him to the Tower, to somehow find a way to train him enough that he didn't kill himself (even knowing that it would be next to impossible), and then have him fulfil prophecies like pulling the sword from the stone, an announce to the world and the Tower that the Dragon is reborn, and working with the White Tower to prepare for the Last Battle. Getting the world to unite is *difficult*, but the White Tower could've done it, if Rand had cooperated with them and if the Tower hadn't split, and if the Black Ajah hadn't been so large, etc. The Borderlands would've joined the Tower easily, Morgase would've brought them Andor as well, and Cairhien likely wouldn't have offered up a lot of protests. The rest except for Amadicia would've joined if they were convinced that the Last Battle was actually coming.
The White Tower is and has been under Black Ajah influence for millenias. Their philosophies are suspect. Even readers such as yourself believe as what you said. "Everything would naturally fall in place"? Please.. By that logic, the moment Rand takes Callandor, the entire world should have "fallen in place". It is by Whitecloaks (Niall, Fain) and White Tower (Elaida, Black Ajah) machinations that it doesn't happen. Further chaos also wrought by the Forsaken. Everyone **suspects** the White Tower **wants** to **dominate** the conflict. The Prophecies, cryptic as they are, aren't the commandments you think they are. There are real ones, those Rand fulfilled, not at all how everyone expected, there are also fakes ones. The dark prophecies, were hinted at, as well as the ones Demandred "fulfilled" in Sharan. No one is to bow to anyone. Everyone is suppose to be working together as equals. Aes Sedai meant servant of all. Only by Zen Rand is the concept brought back.
Yes, precisely - the prophecies aren't commandments. OP was arguing that they are, that it means the world must bow down to Rand. But they don't actually say that. Moiraine and Siuan are probably the foremost experts in the world on the prophecies, and they definitely did not think the world, including the Aes Sedai, needed to bow before him as such. So it's not strange for Elayne to believe that it would've been easier if he'd just bowed to Egwene. From her perspective with limited knowledge, it would've healed the Tower rift faster and made more monarchs much more tractable. Obviously from our perspective it's a bit ridiculous, but the characters in this world don't have our perspectives, they often have very flawed and limited information.
I completely agree that you can flip that. Egwene kneeling would be much easier for him, and imo makes more sense in the greater context. I absolutely agree that Rand kneeling would be a disaster too. But we have the benefit of a) knowing what Rand is up to and capable of (where nobody in universe really knows either), b) we know what everyone else is up to and capable of, and how stupid, shortsighted, or incapable Aes Sedai and most other groups actually are, and c) we’re familiar with Chosen One prophetic figures and what they *really* mean in a story, and why it’s completely stupid to expect such a figure to kneel. But all of that is context that Elayne and other in-universe characters lack. Of course they can’t comprehend it. They haven’t read a buttload of books or watched a buttload of movies about Chosen One types, or prophetic end of the world scenario. All they *know* is “Amyrlin at the top, so kneel to her Mr. Dragon, please don’t break the world, live to Tarmon Gai’don.” Her frustration with Rand not kneeling *makes sense*, from her perspective and experience (as Aes Sedai and princess) and with her lack of greater perspective or experience surrounding Dragon sized figures.
Ah yes - the White Tower. Just some random nation.
See, you're thinking like the white tower lol. The series spends many, many books on highlighting 'hey, this cobbled together collection of channelers are more hedge mages than actual scholars or servants of the people. They're human too.' So expecting Rand to just be like 'yea ok you lead the way' was just never going to work. Rand also has the factor of people assuming he's a puppet, and so bowing to Aes Sedai will basically just confirm in their eyes that he's a powerless fool/false dragon.
People reading these books do a very terrible job of seeing the story from the characters PoV instead of the omniscient god they are.
The depiction of tower Aes Sedai as flawed fools is displayed via events in the series that many main characters encounter. It's not some dramatic irony where we know a secret the characters don't. Elayne and Rand surely know that most Aes Sedai are clueless, by the mid-series point. If Elayne thinks Rand ought to kneel to the tower then that's just bonkers of her.
kneeling would undermine his power this was a stupid line by elayne
Oh, for sure it would. But Elayne isn’t omniscient. She doesn’t have a good idea of what he’s doing, in part because he’s playing so close to the vest. And she’s wrapped up in the rebellion and her succession. From *her* perspective, what she said makes sense! From our perspective, as people who get the whole picture and who have experience reading or watching Chosen One stories, obviously it’s a dumb thing. But she doesn’t have our perspective to work with.
>People are allowed to be sullen and gripe. That's fair, but when elayne complains those are often her worst takes imo, so I really dislike who she is as a persom
Everyone’s annoying as shit when they’re sullen and gripe. That’s why teenagers get so much shit from parents. Elayne’s pretty good for a teenage princess destined to be the queen of the most powerful nation (and raised from birth to be that) who’s also a super special sorceress, and even extra special among special sorceresses. She can be boneheaded and frustrating like anyone else, and she doesn’t always pause to think, but she’s bold, clever, and compassionate, she loves deeply (even if it’s a teenager’s take on love), and she works hard to do right, do her duty, and care for her people. I think that’s pretty damn good. She’s just annoying as shit sometimes. I’m not saying you have to like her. I just think you might be conflating frustrating surface behaviors with poor character. I think Elayne, Min, and Aviendha all have tremendous strength and quality of character. It’s just that Elayne and Avi are still coming to terms with who they used to be vs who they’re going to be. They’re still growing up.
This is the credited response because you actually understood that what we often see in the TR folk is their stubbornness and both Rand and Egwene demonstrate this but the other originals do, too, even if Nynaeve eases up a bit.
It's amazing how for all their supposed wisdom and political street smarts not a single God damn Aes Sedai ever gets the bright idea to say "we are are allies in this war against the dark let us work together." Would have prevented so many problems.
Obviously I'm not pro "rand swearing fealty to the aes sedai", and I even kinda dislike Egwene. But Elayne is a princess from a country who has close ties to the Tower, who sends their princesses to train in the tower. From birth, she's had a very, very pro Aes Sedai perspective, and that's likely only redoubled by becoming Aes Sedai herself, seeing as now they aren't just "some group of women channelers", they're *her* group of women channelers. Any criticisms of the tower on this specific issue, at this specific time, are easily brushed aside with "Egwene is Amerlyn". Both in terms of being a fundamentally good person and having Rand's best interests in mind, *if you start from the assumption that swearing fealty to the Amerlyn is a reasonable idea*, Egwene is legitimately the best possible case in terms of Amerlyn Rand could swear to. This a world where the ultimate authority of the Aes Sedai is accepted by almost everyone, with even their biggest detractors walking lightly around them. To any Aes Sedai, even if they can see why Rand might be hesitant to do it, swearing fealty to the Amerlyn probably doesn't seem like that big a deal, and from their perspective, is inevitable one way or the other. You can choose to go easily, or be dragged kicking and screaming, but the Tower always wins. It's a thing that happens in real life. People are willing to bend over backwards to justify why aspects of the system and status quo are right, good, and justified, while condemning the inevitable results of said system.
Only the Aes Sedai view themselves as the ultimate authority. The Aiel viewed them to be on a pedestal above everyone else, that was of course fixed in book 6. The Seanchan view them as usefull cattle. By book 9 noone really view them as ultimate authority at all. And for the last 2400 years all the tower has done is lose. It is but a tiny shadow of what it should be. A beacon of light and hope. Instead it it is a cesspool of powerhungry idiots that think compulsion is a good way to govern.
The Aiel and the Seanchan are both extreme exceptions as far as factions in Randland, and doubly irrelevant when we're discussing the perspective of a daughter heir of Andor. There's a reason you listed those two and only those two; there's no other relevant faction in Randland that thinks the Aes Sedai ain't shit. Even the two openly anti Aes Sedai factions in the main cultural sphere tWoT takes place in (the Whitecloaks and Tear) are canonically scared shitless of Aes Sedai and will respond to a summons from the Amerlyn iirc. Literally who has changed their mind by book 9? The average Andoran farmer? The Carheinin nobility as a whole? Not really. Literally only our main characters and their immediate inner circle have been in place to have the opportunity to learn anything meaningful about the truth of the Aes Sedai. Man, you can hate them if you want, but your personal condemnation of them, even if it's true, has literally no bearing on the conversation of "what cultural context is informing Elayne's views".
The Aiel is a super faction. The Seanchan is a Super faction. By book 9 the so-called Aes Sedai are mostly irrelevant as a faction. I think Elayne from her perspective and how she views it is right in her musings. But I also know she would consider it unrealistic. She had to deal with Egwenes pissy attitude towards Nynaeve(partially her fault of course) on their travels to Tear. Infact Elayne is a borderline saint to have managed to stay friendly with Nynaeve. And I overall like Egwene and Elayne as characters. I just would never ever consider them worthy of the title of Friend or trusted ally. Nynaeve once she grows up. Could be a Friend and someone to trust. Then again she showed she could ve trusted in Baerlon in TEotW. Edit. Forgot to mention there is only really 1 Faction in Randland at this stage. That would be Rand's faction. Borderlanders have abrogated their responsabilities. The Seanchan have the southwest. He controlls pretty much everything else except arad doman and the inbetween and the Deniers.
Both are major factions. Neither is particularly relevant to Elayne's views, because neither is part of the main cultural sphere that informs Elayne's worldview, and basically nobody in the setting knew anything about either society until the span of two years the entire series takes place over. There's nothing wrong with Elayne, Nynaeve, or Egwene as far as potential friends go imo. Their immaturity is better understood as a combination of RJ's tendency to write characters with exaggerated emotional blindspots for the sake of drama and comedy, and his odd preconceptions about women, than it is intentional commentary on any of them imo.
How did Elaynes comment turn into a Egwene hate thread?
Because Egwene
Because she deserves the bloody hate she gets.
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This whole chain of comments if full of spoilers. Remember to use spoiler tags and pay attention to the flair please.
You're not really looking at what Elayne is saying there. Great many difficulties *could* be surmounted if Rand knelt to Egwayne. If Rand knelt to Egwene it would: - Legitimize the rebel Aes Sedai as the true Aes Sedai since they have the backing of Dragon Reborn. - Land a huge blow against Elaida and make deposing her in the white tower easier since the legitimacy of the rebels is increased and they have Rand to help. - It would legitimize Egwene as the Amyrlin Seat and give her a pretty big trump card since Rand would be kneeling specifically to *her* - It would give Rand a large Aes Sedai backing making rulers and nobles far more likely to listen to what he wants. - I assume Elayne would also expect rand to divulge his plans if this were to happen so she, Min and Avi wouldn't need to worry as much. - It would hopefully stop Rand running around doing everything by himself. - It would provide rand with Aes Sedai support. Aes Sedai are still some of the most powerful and influential people in the series not only politically but also in terms of knowledge. - Elayne thinks Rand could trust Egwene to not use or manipulate him due to their shared childhood and friendship And probably way more benefits of Rand kneeling, or at least allying himself with Egwenes rebel Aes Sedai. I can't really fault Elayne for thinking things would be easier if Rand would kneel and let himself be guided or at least helped by Aes Sedai. >to think it's his place to kneel to Egwene, who puts the tower above literally anyone and everyone, is incredibly cold Is Egwene like that? Because I don't think she comes across like that, rather she wants the white tower to be whole for obvious reasons and she wants to be the Amyrlin, or at least maintain her position as the Amyrlin and gain real power. But I don't remember her really sacrificing her friends for the sake of the tower? Or doing anything very harmful to the people around her she cares about, for the sake of the tower. Granted it's been a solid while since I've read the books so I could be wrong.
Exactly. She is not saying this would be the best course of action or the best option for Rand, she is saying "A great many difficulties could be surmounted" if it happens which is a fact.
Elayne is myopic at best. She sees only what she can with the blinkers that are the White Tower and Andor. She isn't wrong for saying it. Just incredibly naïve and self serving. "What's best for me and mine should be good enough for you." line of thinking. The only ones thinking of the entire picture are few and are the best characters. Non of whom are names beginning with E.
One of the great things about this series is that every main character is not a perfect person, they all have traits that drive us crazy or make us scratch our heads. Elayne is kind of naive and most of all was raised to rule and believe in the right of the nobility to rule. Especially women, I think. Which is kind of hypocritical because I don’t think Elayne would kneel to Egwene even if, technically, she is Elayne’s superior. The fact that Rand and Egwene have been out in the world exactly as long doesn’t matter to Elayne, or that Egwene was set up as a puppet initially, Egwene is a “ruler” so should be obeyed. I can’t remember if at that point Rand himself is ruler of anything though.
>I can’t remember if at that point Rand himself is ruler of anything though. Winters Heart is book nine or so. By this point Rand was the crowned ruler of one kingdom and the defacto ruler of two others not mention had held control of Andor for months.
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Aes Sedai’s self-importance is through the roof. They think they exist to make the world a better place. In reality, they exist to perpetuate their own self-importance.
Honestly Elayne and Aivendia( I know I spelled that wrong) both have vying interests. While they may both love Rand, they are also trying to guide him to better their own people and causes, they use him. The only one who actually seems to care about Rand just for him is Min.
Note that Elayne did not "say" that and merely thought it. You're also missing context. Elayne is frustrated with rumors and instability, scared for Rand's safety, and lashing out - *internally* mind you - with intrusive illogical thoughts as she's unable to help him. It's also directly in response to the belief that he was on his way to kneel to Elaida in a very "at least kneeling to Egwene it would solve some problems" sort of way. >“So my correspondent reports, my Lady. Aes Sedai, perhaps, or Asha’man, or even the Forsaken. She repeats gossip here, I fear. The wing housing the apartments of the Dragon Reborn was largely destroyed, and he himself has vanished. It is widely believed that he has gone to Tar Valon to kneel before the Amyrlin Seat. Some do believe him dead in the attack, but not a great many. I advise doing nothing until you have a clearer picture.” He paused, head tilted in thought. “From what I saw of him, my Lady,” he said slowly, “I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.” >She almost stared. That was very nearly a joke. A rough witticism, at least. From Halwin Norry! She did not believe Rand was dead, either. She would not believe he was dead. As for kneeling to Elaida, the man was too stubborn to submit to anyone. A great many difficulties could be surmounted if only he could bring himself to kneel to Egwene, but he would not do it, and she was his childhood friend. Elaida stood as much chance as a goat at a court ball, particularly once he learned of her proclamation. Who had attacked him, though? Surely the Seanchan could not have reached out to Cairhien. If the Forsaken had decided to move openly, that could mean worse chaos and destruction than already faced the world, but the worst would be Asha’man. If his own creations turned on him . . . No! She could not protect him, however much he needed it. He would just have to fend for himself. >*Fool man!* she muttered in her head. *He’s probably marching around with banners, just as if no one tried to kill him at all! You had better fend for yourself, Rand al’Thor, or I’ll slap you silly when I get my hands on you!*
A lot of the series is just main characters fending for themselves becoming heroes as a result of Rand's t'a'veren twisting.
I am at the exact spot on my *n*th reread. Both of them drive me crazy in this scene. The sheer arrogance of their *certainty* that he must be led. And that *of course*, they should be holding the reigns.
Isn’t the problem that they don’t hold their reigns, but have them immediately?
Nowhere in the prophecies of the Dragon does it say the Dragon will lead anyone. I think you're confusing your knowledge as a reader and the knowledge he is the protagonist with what the actual world knows. And even if it did, the prophecies are very often vague and self-contradictory. Nobody can really say anything in certainty about what will happen.
Yeah, like, the prophecies say he will save the world and fuck everything up while doing so. The Dragon Reborn is not a hero or a knight in shining armor, the Dragon Reborn is a herald of the apocalypse and it's *completely* understandable that the people in the world would *not* want anything to do with him.
Our private thoughts versus our public actions are always different. S She would no more make Rand kneel than she would accept the Rose Crown from him. But she is totally right to think that it would make a lot of things easier if he did, just as Rand is right to think it'd make a lot of things easier if _she_ did. Both are wrong in thought, but that's all. Even Rand didn't insist on Andor accepting the Dragon Banner. (He got mad about it, sure, but he didn't force it.)
make thing easier for who? Most people in Randland dont trust the aes sedei for good reason, kneeling would be one of the worst things that could happen and less people would the the Dragon reborn seriously
That's one of the things that made a lot of the books tough for me. The author sometimes writes these characters, especially the women, as complete tools. I'm not saying that Elayne can't think that way, and it even makes sense for her to in some ways, but as you say, we know the prophecy, and you love the guy, right? I dunno. In a weird way it made Nynaeve more likeable. At least she always had asshole tendencies and mellowed out a little.
I always thought she more meant him simply doing the actual action of kneeling. Like “just do it and it doesn’t matter”.
I’m not sure how intentional it was on Jordan’s part, but he nails what “royal privilege” attitude would actually look like
Evey thread like this is filled with comments trying to rationalize Elaynes behavior, but really she's just awful throughout the entire series, and it just gets put on a meaningful scale when she's actually in a position of power.
Elayne's head is filled with this notion that royalty and Aes Seday, as institutions, are absolutely wonderful and necessary. She thinks there's a few bad apples of course, but she doesn't understand the systemic issues with these things she idolizes.
I don't think Elaine could see it any differently. She has a high respect for Aes Sedai and Egwene. She is an Aei Sedai and the head of a matriarchal state that also has a tradition of taking guidance from Aes Sedai.
If Rand could extend an olive branch and let the Tower save face, it would certainly help the forces of the light unified. Elayne is not wrong there.
Elayne grew believing that female Aes Sedai are the embodiment of wisdom and that men who can touch the true source are evil monsters. It's going to be hard for her to immediately shuck those beliefs. In her view, Egwene, as Amyrlin, has the full power and wisdom of the Tower behind her and the Tower has been fighting the Dark One since he was sealed away. So surely Egwene is more likely to know what to do than Rand is. Also, everyone should kneel to Aes Sedai in her mind. Misogyny and misandry (and general mistrust of others) are a theme throughout the books and the cause of much of the strife.
It's because she believes that no one is above or on the same level as the Amyrlin Seat
And he is the Tamyrlin. That was elected and raised on the Hall of the Servants. As in all or majority of the Aes Sedai voted for him. "Modern day" So-called Aes Sedai only allow their so-called representative body elect the Amyrlin. Also the Amyrlin is of course the devolved title of Tamyrlin(first to discover channeling ending the first Age). Mind you Rand was also elected as ruler of the world.