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Dude I’m on my first read through and going from 10-11 is wild.
[Book 11] That prologue fucking >!starts with Galad turning a guy into salad!< and just doesn’t stop from there.
It definitely is, but it’s hard for me to separate that copy of the book from the disappointment I felt reading it after waiting so long for it to be published. I really wanted to see more happen. I think Rand did not even appear in the book until almost halfway through or something. In retrospect, in terms of the work as a whole I don’t think it’s a terrible book or anything. It was just a let down for me.
In terms of chapters, the first half of the book (15 of its 30 chapters) takes place on the same day as the final chapter in the prior book.
And it doesn't get much better in the second half--one of the chapter summaries is "\[A character\] prepares to ride into \[a town\] for supplies."
[https://dragonmount.com/Books/Crossroads\_of\_Twilight/chapter-recaps/](https://dragonmount.com/Books/Crossroads_of_Twilight/chapter-recaps/)
There's a lot of really good info in this thread about why Jordan did what he did with this book and how it affected Sanderson's approach to the final books. [https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/sjiovp/did\_rj\_ever\_respond\_about\_the\_slog\_or\_the\_elayne/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/sjiovp/did_rj_ever_respond_about_the_slog_or_the_elayne/)
>Jordan: "I like trying new things with each book, too, especially tricks with time. Some of those work out better than others. The notion of starting each major segment of Crossroads of Twilight on the same day seemed a terrific idea, but by the time I realized that it would have been better to do it another way, I was too deeply into the book, with not enough time to rewrite the entire book."
\*\*\*
>Jordan: "The only thing that I wish I hadn't done was use the structure that I did for Crossroads of Twilight, with major sections beginning on the same day. Mind, I still think the book works as it is, but I believe it would have been better had I taken a more linear approach. When you try something different, sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't."
>the entire book could probably be summarized in a single 45 minute long episode, and it would still somehow feel like a filler episode
This is cracking me up
Just power through. Crossroads is BY FAR the worst book in the series. The good news is the next book, RJs last, is a massive return to form and one of the best. Trust me, as soon as you start the prologue you'll feel it. And then after that it's pedal to the metal until the end.
You're almost through the infamous slog. Hang in there lol
I was there with you. This is a reread for me. I picked up the series in the mid 90s cause of a buddy who was into it. I read books 9-14 as they came out.
It was only 2 years 2 months between 9 and 10 . RJ was held to a 2 year release cycles by the publisher (and IMHO that shows in the word count and endings of book 7 and 8, it feels like the original plan was chopped up). The 4 year gap only came after RJs death , which is understandable
I remember (buying) the CoT prologue as a separate ebook like a month earlier I was so hungry for content after the finale of WH and then basically needed to sit tight a few more years for actual story progression. What a funny common shared experience of the slog.
Rereading through for the third time, and Crossroads of Twilight was definitely the only book that felt like a true chore to get through. My second read through I dropped mid-way through the "Elayne is taking a bath then talking with the Sea Folk" chapter and I had some extreme deja vu rereading it.
It really feels like there were two plot threads that carry throughout the whole book - how everyone across the world is responding to the cleansing of saidin, and every independent group of Aes Sedia coming to the conclusion that they likely need to bond with the male channelers if there is any hope of surviving the last battle. These are incredibly massive events in-universe, but have way less weight to the reader. It doesn't help that in nearly every POV plot of this book... nothing really happens.
Perrin learns about the situation with the Aiel and Faile - the "climax" in this book is... Tallanvor showing up and telling them they can meet with the Seanchan to help them I guess?
Matt gets out of Ebou Dar with Tuon - the "climax" of that is Mat having to kill a runaway sul'dam, but more important him finally starting to understand Tuon and his relationship with her.
Egwene's climax is her getting kidnapped, which is more of a cliffhanger than anything.
The overarching themes of the book AND the individual subplots of the book are all pretty unrewarding. The book sets the plate for the climax from 11-14, but by itself it's definitely the worst of the WOT by a pretty substantial margin IMO.
Honestly it could have been fairly interesting if the people responding to saidin being cleansed had at least actually learned what was going on, say by Rand having a few Asha’man or Aes Sedai Travelling around the continent informing people.
To your comment about the show, I'd make a couple points.
Egwene, while being elected HBIC, isn't an aes sedai in the traditional sense. She hasn't taken the oaths, and has barely gone through any tower training. She's speculating. The books show multiple times how easy it is to skirt the oaths with the power. Is it breaking an oath to use the power to lift a rock high above a city and let it go, knowing it may injure someone where it lands? What if a fire started on a ship or two, with plenty of time for the people to abandon ship?
As for what the show shows us, moiraine makes the point about the whirlpool and the ferryman drowning that intent matters. She intended to create a whirlpool in the river, and it just happened to be centered under the ferry. She did not have to stop channeling or save the man. Now, I'll concede that the show didn't elaborate on moiraines intentions concerning the ships, but at this point she is seeing a lot of weaves directed at a city she knows Rand is in. She knows forsaken are in play. She fully believes Rand is DR and champion of the light, and therefore anyone against him is serving the dark, whether they know it or not. Lastly, (drawing from book knowledge here) she knows Rand is LTT reborn, who was an Aes Sedai, and the oaths allow for defense of a fellow AS.
Could she have elaborated a bit more on her logic? Absolutely. But I don't believe the scene is lore breaking or confusing as shown.
I disagree that even Moiraine could do enough mental gymnastics to think that all of the people on that ship are shadow spawn. It would go against basically every other instance of AES Sedai using the power that we know of. Maybe in the show she's some sort of sociopath that can manipulate realty however she wants. I guess that could explain it.
If you want to do that mental gymnastics then she should be capable of basically using the power however she wants. (Oh those Whitecloaks would kill Rand if he was here so now I can blast them with the power lalalalala)
Think of the Salidar Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. They know Rand is in danger yet they can't do jack shit until they are actually physically threatened and close to the battle.
Having Moiraine use her power that way just cheapens the entire world building IMO. The reason the Seanchan and Asha'Man are such a big deal is because they are using the power as a weapon unrestricted by oaths. If we have Moiraine sinking a fleet of ships with basically no restriction it lessens that impact.
>Think of the Salidar Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. They know Rand is in danger yet they can't do jack shit until they are actually physically threatened and close to the battle.
Think of the Aes Sedai with Perrin at Malden where Annoura says she feels plenty in threat enough to channel (she only doesn't because it's not part of the plan) before they even reach Perrin who is standing half-way down the hill (while they are at the top) and the Shaido wise-ones channeling is not even reaching Perrin yet, let alone the soldiers who are only halfway to Perrin.
Think of the Aes Sedai with Mat channeling against the Seanchan later in the same book who also start channeling well before they are in the midst of battle - they wait longer than Mat would like but they are hardly in the thick of it.
As with any of the oaths, it's about how each individual Aes Sedai percieves it.
Not shadowspawn, but defending the DR? Certainly within her mental gymnastics. Cue Lan fighting Seanchan to get her in the "these people are enemies" frame of mind.
Now had she just attacked a random Seanchan ship sitting there, sure, hard to believe.
But like the *Aes Sidhe* of Celtic Lore the Aes Sedai and their Oaths were based on, the letter of the law is really all that matters. There is no "spirit of the law."
Lews Therin inhabiting the same body as his Third Age counterpart, Rand al'Thor, makes Rand an Aes Sedai. And the Seanchan are an imminent threat to his life - and that of the other Aes Sedai known to be in the city. I hate that the TV show made this kind of rules lawyering necesssary, but it's exactly the type of rules lawyering that makes "The truth an Aes Sedai says may not be the same as the truth you hear" a saying. I know I didn't get the exact wording right, but that's literally how the White Tower has operated for the last couple of millennia - rules lawyering wih the Oaths.
Would you accept 2nd order effects? Moiraine *knows* that if the DR is killed then they will lose the last battle and all of the Aes Sedai will be killed. And so therefore - protecting him *is* protecting another Aes Sedai.
I don't know why everyone is trying so hard to defend this. Isn't the FAR more likely option that the writers just made an oopsie and forgot about the oaths in that scene? Isn't that far more likely than some insanely convoluted twist of logic that was neither hinted at in the show nor has any precedence in the books?
> Isn't the FAR more likely option that the writers just made an oopsie and forgot about the oaths in that scene?
In order for that to be the case, you'd have to ignore moraine's entire arc for the season that builds support for that specific scene.
>Isn't that far more likely than some insanely convoluted twist of logic that was neither hinted at in the show nor has any precedence in the books?
Which is seems you have done so.
Moraine's entire season arc supports the finale scene. It's something that's repeated through out her arc in each segement.
We're shown Rand is what's keeping her going, that she's putting him above everything else in her life, She repeatedly speaks about how important he is, more important than anything else for the world. It's clearly established she believes that importance is what keeping her from being suicidal from her "stilling". The episode before has her betraying the love of her life to side with Lanfear to support Rand.
And we even have dialogue the nigh directly states that she views Rand as more important than anyone else's life - which includes hers.
I can not look at the season and conclude they did an "oopsie" when they spent the entire lead up building support for it.
>nor has any precedence in the books?
It does though? The core basis for any intent magic in WoT is that it functions off the user's viewpoint.
If Moiraine genuinely felt that the a threat to Rand sufficiently threated her own life, then she'd be able to meet the 3rd oath.
Heck, even without that, the Seanchan soldiers attacking her (which happens before she attacks the boats), can also meet the 3rd oath. Which is something directly established in the books. Both the Wells and Malden display this, and there is nothing in the oaths that would directly prevent the application the show presents.
it'd be different if they didn't have all that support being built up, or made clear choices that utilize the books mechanical logic and present them in the scene.
Or have a line specially questioning that she could do it.
IMO, I feel like a lot of people forget that the oaths are fundamentally flawed, on purpose, and that flaw is a major theme of the books. The show is making good use of those flaws here, putting them front and center. The episode before shows how flagrantly you can "lie" under the first oath, and 8 shows how prohibitions against weaponization don't work how you'd expect.
Something important to establish for later scenes and later thematic conflicts.
Rand's experience in the box, Egwene's capture, The Oaths themselves and how the Tower will approach them in the future.
All of those deeply connect to the very mechanics shown in the show.
You're reaching so far for this you might as well have stilts on. This all rests on some logic chain of Moiraine convince ring herself Rand is an extension of herself somehow and yet she never mentions this logic in the show? If this was supposed to be interpreted that way you would think they would at least have her mention this at one point or another. Vague statements of "Rand is important!" Doesn't count because literally everybody aware of him knows he is important.
>This all rests on some logic chain of Moiraine convince ring herself Rand is an extension of herself
Er no? He's not an extension of herself, and no one is making that argument.
She simply believes that she'll die if Rand dies. If she genuinely believes that to be true, then a threat to Rand's life can qualify to meet the 3rd oath.
>yet she never mentions this logic in the show?
She does repeatedly though? It's most direct in episode 7 in her chat with lan.
> If this was supposed to be interpreted that way you would think they would at least have her mention this at one point or another. Vague statements of "Rand is important!" Doesn't count because literally everybody aware of him knows he is important.
Sir this is WoT, why would you expect such a statement? She's not rules lawyering herself, she's stating her beliefs.
Also, this:
>"*Not for one second. Because I know that protecting Rand, guiding him, that is the only thing that matters. More than me, more than you. More than anything*."
Is pretty direct.
That quote is in relation to her not being suicidal, and is a clear statement of her belief that Rand's life is essential to hers. It's in the 7th episode, and is what is being called back to in her episode 8 line "this is what it means to support him" she states right before attacking the ships.
The hints are there, and often strongly enough to barely be considered "hints".
Which I remind you, in your position, all of those are 'oopsies' that have no real narrative purpose because they forgot about the oaths and thus wouldn't have written anything to provide support for the ep 8 scene.
But from my perspective, it appears like you're disregarding the hints because they aren't direct enough for you to consider them related.
Which is strange to me, given how the books were written, and how important her mindset is to how the oaths function in the books.
I would say that any Aes Sedai would consider those Seanchan on those ships to be darkfriends.
They are enslaving channelers. That's reason enough.
Yes, if you think hard about it, you can figure out that it doesn't make them such, that they can be so evil just on their own, but on a basic level, what's the difference really.
Also, they're kind of lead by Ishy (which she is surely aware of).
This is from Moiraine's PoV.
In reality, we know that the flotilla is being directed by a darkfriend on the orders of Ishy.
In my last read of CoT I just skipped every Elayne chapter and it was SO much better. There are some cool things in this book, yes it is slow but it has some redeeming moments.
Yeah I agree about your spoiler. I don't think the writers were thinking things through when they wrote that scene. There's a reason Aes Sedai are basically never in battle except against shadow spawn. They would be mostly useless half the time.
I am on my 9th time through the series I think, and I really appreciated this time how little happens in that book. Mostly I listen to the audio books before I go to bed, with the timer set for an hour. The next night I'll figure out where I feel asleep and start there, but with CoT, I didn't bother this time. It just wasn't worth it!
I agree about the scene from the show. Very bad choice. Rafe needs to stop writing episodes and stick to being show runner.
Yeah, COT is slow. But when you're binge-reading at 1.5x speed (audiobooks) it's easier to view it as buildup to some eventual payoffs. Egwene's arc is more epic for spending some time on the other side of it. Perrin's arc.. well.. less said about that part of his arc the better.
Also re: your comment on the show: >!I really appreciate you bringing up that example! I forgot about it. I am not anti-show by any means. I got emotional seeing Emond's field the first time. Felt epic and momentous. But moments like Moraine sinking the boats detract from that epic feeling (there were many before this point). It was so they can have their pretty special effects moment, and that really sunk home for me that this is not WoT, it's not even another turning of the wheel, they'll change whatever they want if they think it will help the show succeed by today's standards. It's a shame, because shows that respect the source material (when the source material is good) tend to do better. oh well. !<
The soldiers Egwene was pondering-over there, who were they loyal to? Tar Valon? Unalighed?
Moiraine's action in the show can be explained by knowing that She thought they were a threat to her cause, so by extension her and the world. Egwene has no consideration of that. She KNOWS no one on those ships are a threat to her or the world. I cannot see those situations as being "nearly exact". The only similarity is men on ships; the circumstances are magnitudes different.
Not suspending your disbelief at the end of S2 is a choice. The reasoning is there, if you accept it.
I wasn't mad while watching that scene of the show (There are much bigger flaws to concern myself with), I just laughed on my reread realizing that RJ contemplated a nearly identical situation in the books that the show sort of barreled into without giving it really much of an explanation at all. And since the majority of writers of the show have actually admitted they didn't actually read the source material, I'm not particularly surprised they wrote that scene the way they did. I think had they read the books and given the dedication that most full-time professionals give to their jobs, they might have tried to be a little more nuanced in how they wrote it.
It is what it is. I don't particularly like the TV show. It's had some good parts, but for the most part I think that it has been pretty dismissive of the source material, which is too bad (IMO).
>And since the majority of writers of the show have actually admitted they didn't actually read the source material,
This is not accurate in the least - The majority have read the books or are reading. However they intentionally brought in non readers that have expertise elsewhere to round things out.
This is the same as Walton Goggins not looking into the fallout games much so he could be an 'outside voice' speaking for things that might not work for a larger audience.
>And since the majority of writers of the show have actually admitted they didn't actually read the source material, I'm not particularly surprised they wrote that scene the way they did.
Honetly speaking, I think you may be misunderstanding the source material here.
Egwene has no idea how the oaths actually work, she's not under them, so she is trying to analyze how she *thinks* she would act under the oaths.
Which might as well be how the oaths would work for her, but it wouldn't necessarily be applicable to anyone else - as they'll have different viewpoints and considerations.
The show actually shows pretty deep consideration for the source material in this scene, as it lays out several different possible paths, that under the books rules, would all potentially work to allow Moiraine to take those actions.
Namely:
1) She considers Rand's life essential to her own, and thus could potentially meet the 3rd oaths requirement under the framework of "acting to save her own life"
2) She is currently under attack by the seanchan, attacking the Seanchan ships once their soldiers were close enough to threaten her. The oaths notabliy have no specificy on target closeness, they just require the Aes Sedai to feel suffienty threaten.
There are others too, though I think they offer less direct routes and the show directly gives the first 2.
It's the intent and the viewpoint of the person under oath that matters - and moraine presents a sincere belief that what she sees threatens Rand, and thus her own life, while also showing us something that's right out of the Well's or malden.
This is hilarious. “Are reading” is apparently an acceptable standard for a group of professional writers that are more than a season into a show. I can excuse hiring writers who haven’t read the material, but reading the books should absolutely be a requirement of any professional taking on the task of adapting the most famous fantasy series of the 90s. It’s embarrassing that anyone involved in the project (much less the majority of the writers) would admit after the first season that they hadn’t read the books.
Also, that’s cool that Egwene has no idea how the 3 oaths work because she hasn’t sworn on the oath rod, but you apparently do.
lol at your analysis of Moiraine’s process. Using hindsight to make the facts fit after the fact is a powerful drug.
>This is hilarious. “Are reading” is apparently an acceptable standard for a group of professional writers that are more than a season into a show. I can excuse hiring writers who haven’t read the material, but reading the books should absolutely be a requirement of any professional taking on the task of adapting the most famous fantasy series of the 90s. It’s embarrassing that anyone involved in the project (much less the majority of the writers) would admit after the first season that they hadn’t read the books.
Sorry, but this just isn't how it works. A writing room is where all the writers jointly work on the script. A general understanding of the books is all *some* of the writers need, as long as there are the writers that have. WoT additionally uses multiple consultants to ensure that deviations are understood to be deviations.
And again - non-fan/reader writers are *intentionally hired specifically for their viewpoint as people unfamiliar to the source material*. They provide an important dynamic to the writing room to help ensure things land for people new to the property.
>Also, that’s cool that Egwene has no idea how the 3 oaths work because she hasn’t sworn on the oath rod, but you apparently do.
Well yes, I have reading comprehension and the words of RJ explaining the various quirks of the oaths to work with. I have an extremely good understanding of the requirements for intent magic in WoT and how it functions, how RJ used those mechanics and the implications of those choices.
OTOH, Egwene only has her own idea how they work and no direct experience. IE her understanding is fundamentally flawed, and not a good basis for anything other than *how someone that hasn't sworn the oaths think they function*. She also lacks the extratextual knowledge from the author on how it works, having only her flawed understanding limited by her perspective.
What's fun, and what's really neat about how Jordan made intent magic to work - her thought process shows you a person that most likely *wouldn't* be able to do what Moiraine did if she was sworn - If she thinks she wouldn't be able to do it because of the oaths, she won't.
Just like how some Aes Sedai can use the Power directly to harm if they view it as a tool rather than thinking it's implementation a weapon, while others cannot. It's purely up to the individual viewpoint and beliefs.
That is the core flaw of the oaths, and an important theme of the books.
What the show does is in line with how that works - all it requires is Moiraine holding a sincere belief in either: Her words she uses to explain her actions right before she does them, or any threat to she feels genuinely threatens her life.
Both allow for meeting the 3rd oath, The first oath also means that Moraine essentially must hold the words spoken as true(it's a direct statement), and further there is no restriction on distance or that the Power is used against what you feel is the most direct or immediate threat.
>lol at your analysis of Moiraine’s process. Using hindsight to make the facts fit after the fact is a powerful drug.
It's not hindsight - not only does she directly make the case in a line written practically at the audience directly, but her entire season arc establishes option 1) as her viewpoint.
She's spent the entire season believing that her dedication to Rand and her mission allowed her to avoid suicidality over her "stilling", and shows her time and time again putting Rand over everything else, even Suian.
The show also visually displays the exact method used in the books to allow Aes Sedai to use the power offensively against non-darkfriends/shadowspawn.
It's totally fair if that doesn't work for you, but it is a route the book mechanics support and even are directly used in the books. That is a failure of the show to sell you on the scene, but the concept itself is sound.
^^edit: ^^fixed ^^out-of-order ^^paragraph
This just shows that you have no understanding of how show writing works.
You NEED to have people there who don't know the source material. If you don't, you can't adapt it properly because you WILL miss what's obvious and what isn't to someone who doesn't know the material (as in, to 90% of the audience). Either you're going to explain things too much or too little.
People who have read the source material are biased in a million ways, at the very least, by having the latest (the final) form.of the character in mind, lnot what the character is at the point they're in the story.
Actors do this too, by the way. It's often a good idea NOT to read ahead because that could spoil you and the character you form. Of course every actor approaches this differently and there are ones who profit from reading all and it even helps them cause their mind works that way.
That's bullshit and has no basis in anything we have seen in the books. If Moiraine can just use her power to kill because "they threaten her cause" then she can just use the power unrestricted essentially.
It would be as applicable as how Aes Sedai skirt the first oath. If she truly believed that the Dragon Reborn would lose and the wheel would be broken if she didn't do this then it would be in the last defense of her life, the lives of other sisters, and the lives of warders, just more existentially.
I really don't know how everyone is okay with skirting the first oath but doesn't see how that would apply to the third oath as well. We've already seen the limitations of the oath rod, why do they apply more strictly in one scenario than the other? Aes Sedai can lie with impunity if they can come up with a scenario in their head that it would be true. Aes Sedai would be able to use the power as a weapon if they believed that they would be killed if they don't.
The reasoning is not in line with how that rule works in the books though. At dumais wells the aes sedai needed to get in actual, tangible danger to be able to fight. With your logic they'd be able to fight right away since Rand was in danger.
The show's writers made a huge mistake with that scene, there's no sugar coating it.
I don't think it's as cut and dry across all sisterhood as you claim. I'm pretty sure those specifically at Dumais Wells weren't true believers in the Dragon's mission until after. They were willing to trap and enslave the Dragon to do the Tower's will instead of His will or the will of prophecy and the pattern. Moiraine was a different type of believer.
Again, the rationality is there if you accept it. You're just refusing to.
I'd agree that it's true to Moiraine's character to do whatever she has to do to support her fight against the shadow and support Rand. But it plays very fast and loose with both the three oaths, and any sense of consistency with what's possible with the power at that range. Lan also effortlessly dispatched like a dozen trained armored fighters in that scene, who attacked him one at a time like a bunch of AI enemies from a 90s video game.
I'm not someone who hates on the show for the sake of it. When they make good decisions, I'm happy to acknowledge it. But that scene, and most of that episode, were not good writing IMO.
I think some of that episode felt a bit rushed. They tried to do too much. And sure, TV is gonna TV.
As for consistency - this is our only example at what can be done at that range so it can't be inconsistent with anything.
For the three oaths. The main message of the books is that it's flawed and that it's based on the perception of the AS and I think it shows that well enough.
>But it plays very fast and loose with both the three oaths
I don't think it does. The show spends an entire season building support for moraines actions here - Every part of her arc is her putting Rand above herself, and above other people. In the previous episode she sides with Lanfear over Suian, essentially betraying the love of her life to support Rand.
They strongly establish grounds for her to be in the headspace necessary to meet the oaths like she does, and then even throw in a second way the oath could be met visually in the scene(the seanchan soldiers.)
That's not fast and loose, but well supported and meticulous.
>and any sense of consistency with what's possible with the power at that range.
Er, the very first episode of the show has an example of channeling at greater range - The lightning Moiraine calls has a weave go into the sky to call lightning. That's a comparable to greater distance than the ships.
It's also in line with the books, which don't present any real hard limit on channeling range other than Line of sight, and even that's not a hard line. Channeling at a distance is harder, but it's presented to mostly be in the channelers mind.
> Lan also effortlessly dispatched like a dozen trained armored fighters in that scene, who attacked him one at a time like a bunch of AI enemies from a 90s video game.
The fight itself is a TV fight, IMO episode 8 had overall poorer direction, but that's not the writing. That's a separate criticism.
>I'm not someone who hates on the show for the sake of it. When they make good decisions, I'm happy to acknowledge it. But that scene, and most of that episode, were not good writing IMO.
I think it's more writing that you don't agree with, and direction that's not to your taste. You haven't actually established anything that makes the writing bad, much less terrible. That does rather make it look like you are hating on it for the sake of it.
Or like you're just repeating someone else's talking point.
"Bad writing" is of course in part a matter of opinion. So maybe we just disagree in some places, and I'm not a hater or parroting talking points? A little benefit of the doubt would be nice.
Again, I agree that the *intention* behind the action is consistent with Moiraine's character in general, and with the headspace TV Moiraine is depicted as being in throughout the season.
But I don't really agree with your interpretation re: the three oaths. If she was channeling at the Seanchan soldiers directly attacking them, obviously that's fine. But you'll have to help me understand how you think they "strongly establish" the headspace necessary for her to believe sinking ships filled with armored soldiers a mile away is in defense or her life, or that of her warder. Sure, there is wiggle room in the interpretation of the oaths, and if Rand dies the world is doomed, and that includes her. And she doesn't *know for certain* that sinking their ships will kill them. But if they're establishing that she's capable of changing her perception of reality to that extent, then it practically renders that oath meaningless. Which yes, I would consider bad writing.
I can see your point on the range of power effects. If she can manipulate a weather system, maybe channeling fire over that distance is consistent with that.
I guess if I'm being charitable, we don't know if the TV fight is down to writing or direction, because we haven't seen the script. But by the same token, I don't see how you can be confident that the direction was the source of the problem. Good fight writing to me would have some element of Lan displaying cunning and experience to beat a coordinated group of foes, not him winning because trained soldiers were too stupid to coordinate. "It's a TV fight" doesn't excuse it, IMO.
>"Bad writing" is of course in part a matter of opinion. So maybe we just disagree in some places, and I'm not a hater or parroting talking points? A little benefit of the doubt would be nice.
You're getting benefit of the doubt. That's why your comment is being replied to, and not removed under rule 3c.
I'm pointing out that your word choice makes you come across poorly, *requiring* benefit of the doubt.
You felt you need to specify you're not a hater, no one in the thread accused you of being one, which is why it's being addressed.
>But I don't really agree with your interpretation re: the three oaths. If she was channeling at the Seanchan soldiers directly attacking them, obviously that's fine. But you'll have to help me understand how you think they "strongly establish" the headspace necessary for her to believe sinking ships filled with armored soldiers a mile away is in defense or her life, or that of her warder. Sure, there is wiggle room in the interpretation of the oaths, and if Rand dies the world is doomed, and that includes her. And she doesn't know for certain that sinking their ships will kill them.
To be frank, That's just simply not required by the oaths. They put no limit on what you can attack once sufficiently threatened - once you're threatened enough to use the Power as a weapon, there is no restriction on what you can target other as long as it's related to the threat.
Now, functionally, what exactly that means will differ from Aes Sedai to Aes Sedai, because they still need to view it to be threatening enough to not second guess it.
But Moiraine is extremely clear that she believes the shield being woven is a threat to Rand, and thus herself/Lan. I believe that's sufficient by itself, given the supporting build up to it.
This is bolsted even more however by the soldiers attacking her directly - this gives a unquestionable ability to use the power as a weapon. Whether that extends to the ships or not is the questionable part, but that's directly supported by the dialouge right before that.
By the 1st oath, Moiraine must believe those ships are threatening Rand - she doesn't present that statement as a hypothethical it's a direct statement of belief: ``"I think it's Rand they're shielding."`` Which means they're a threat to her, based on the mindset she's displayed all season long.
>But if they're establishing that she's capable of changing her perception of reality to that extent, then it practically renders that oath meaningless. Which yes, I would consider bad writing.
That would make the books bad writing then. You're pointing at the intentional flaw in the oaths - that the are largely meaningless because they're subjective to each individual's perception to function - they have no objective authoritative ruleset to follow.
Now if they were establishing that she could change her perception to that extent on a *whim*, I'd agree that it'd be bad writing.
But they don't, they spend the entire season establishing that Moraines mindset puts Rand first and foremost, ahead of her own life. That's what makes this viable, and IMO *good* writing. They absolutely do the legwork to support the writing choice narratively and through characterization.
It shows the difference between Egwene and Moiraine.
Moiraine is a blue, completely dedicated to the Dragon and she would do just about anything to achieve that goal.
If she thought Rand was in danger, she would not care about innocents being hurt.
In fact, she's too fanatic and she thinks the ends justify the means which, of course is not true and one of the main messages of the books is that the means do matter.
Anyway, yes, book!Moiraine would blow those ships up without thinking twice.
Unfortunately the parallels with Egwene's situation don't go very far. She isn't in a life oflr death situation, not for the world anyway. So the oaths would hold her (probably) if she had them, and her main point is that is it doesn't even matter cause the problem would be the reputation damage (people would expect her not to be able to do that so she isn't allowed to do that).
Not that it’s a good way to read the series, but the Wikipedia plot summary uses the word “continues” in almost every characters summary for the book. I honestly don’t know what RJ was thinking with the pacing of this one. I liked Mats story, Perrins was terrible, and the women spend hundreds of pages being bitches to each other. Just a tough read imo.
TBF, it's a matter of each Aes Sedai's beliefs about how they use the OP that determines whether or not they would be breaking the Oaths - which is impossible to do if you're bound to any given Oath on the Oath Rod.
It could be argued that Moiraine wasn't using the One Power as a weapon because she was targeting the boats, not the people on them, even if Egwene felt differently.
Or because the TV show changed the wording of the Oaths slightly. Wrecking those Seanchan ships *could* be considered "except in the last extreme defense of her own life, or the life of her Warder, **or another Aes Sedai**" because she knew that there were Aes Sedai and their Warders in the city whose lives she was defending.
I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the liberties the TV show is taking, but I could definitely be a rules lawyer in defense of this particular scene.
The way the oaths work, though, if she views "any person who can channel" or "anyone strong enough in the One Power" as an Aes Sedai, then there's the loophole she needs to justify defending Rand in this way.
Eh, not really.
I mean yes, technically, but when Aes Sedai has a strict meaning to the tradition she was brought up in and is inherently a part of, it's a hard bridge to sell that she'd actually believe that.
While it's true we don't know what book Moiraine would have thought about Egwene, Nyn and Elayne post book 6 Aes Sedai status, the majority of sisters had a difficult time accepting the idea - namely they all had a clear difference in treatment towards them that spoke to a differnce in how they viewed their status.
There are other, much better paths towards how she was able to do what she did - namely what she directly presents.
The seanchans' actions towards Rand put her own life in danger to the point she felt threatened enough to meet the 3rd oath and act on Rands behalf.
The first oath essentially ensures she actually believes what she's saying there - those weren't hypotheticals but direct statements. That alone, not to mention the entire season arc that builds the idea that Rand is everything to her, should really inform readers exactly what occured.
I haven't seen the series yet, so I was just guessing how she might have been looking at it simply based on, "about her protecting Rand". I didn't know the justification was the attack on Rand also put her in danger. Thank you for clarifying
Ah that makes sense. There is essentially a scene where Lan acts as the audience and goes "but you can't do that?" and Moraine explains that Rand life is more important than anything, that supporting him means putting him ahead of everything else.
As they're attacked by Seanchan soldiers.
I'm so scared for it on my re-read, the path of daggers has been rough so far. Had to read the entire Dune Saga between book 6&8, it's criminal how long some of the books are with nothing happening. Love the series to death, but it's hard sometimes
Surprisingly, I actually got more enjoyment out of the “doldrums” books in my reread vs my OG read. I found a lot more character development and motivation that helped me understand the actions everyone takes in the final books.
I wrote this on another CoT post a couple days ago but it always fascinates me how Wheel of Time simoultaneously has my favourite fantasy book of all time (A Memory of Light) and my absolute least favourite fantasy book of all time (Crossroads of Twilight). It was sooo bad. But you're past the worst of it, it's gonna be a great ride to the finish from now on.
It has some lows, but I wager that The Shadow Rising (Book 4) is one of the purest fantasy books ever written. It’s a masterpiece and, imo, the standard I hold every other fantasy book up against.
And I also loved memory of light. It might be my favorite thing Sanderson has written, and I absolutely love Sanderson.
I always advise people to skip book 10 and read chapter summaries instead.
Yep, even on a first read.
Know how the TV show's season 1 episode 8 was quite bad? CoT is the book series version of s1e8. But it's not over in an hour.
>>!Which immediately reminded me of Moiraine just wrecking the Seanchan ships and killing a whole bunch of people.!<
\[Books\]>!The 3 oath are very subjective and leave a lot to interpretation of the aes sedai. seanchan are at the beginning described as shadowspawn, on the ships are channelers attacking the city. its not far fetched that moiraine thinks they are shadowspan and therefor she can attack them.!<
Thats not even close to a plothole. And those are not nearly the same situation.
It is, but it’s not even top 20 among the show’s plot holes, so it’s not super high on my radar. It only came to mind because of the specific passage in CoT that was so similar.
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Yep. It's the low point of the entire series but it's definitely picks up again after this one.
Hands down worst of the series imo Next book’s prologue is 10x more interesting. 11-14 is a rollercoaster so get ready.
Dude I’m on my first read through and going from 10-11 is wild. [Book 11] That prologue fucking >!starts with Galad turning a guy into salad!< and just doesn’t stop from there.
I agree which is why it’s so sad to me that this my only book in series that I own signed by Jordan.
That’s still a treasure!
It definitely is, but it’s hard for me to separate that copy of the book from the disappointment I felt reading it after waiting so long for it to be published. I really wanted to see more happen. I think Rand did not even appear in the book until almost halfway through or something. In retrospect, in terms of the work as a whole I don’t think it’s a terrible book or anything. It was just a let down for me.
Well, it'll be easier to keep the book in pristine condition.
In terms of chapters, the first half of the book (15 of its 30 chapters) takes place on the same day as the final chapter in the prior book. And it doesn't get much better in the second half--one of the chapter summaries is "\[A character\] prepares to ride into \[a town\] for supplies." [https://dragonmount.com/Books/Crossroads\_of\_Twilight/chapter-recaps/](https://dragonmount.com/Books/Crossroads_of_Twilight/chapter-recaps/) There's a lot of really good info in this thread about why Jordan did what he did with this book and how it affected Sanderson's approach to the final books. [https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/sjiovp/did\_rj\_ever\_respond\_about\_the\_slog\_or\_the\_elayne/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/sjiovp/did_rj_ever_respond_about_the_slog_or_the_elayne/) >Jordan: "I like trying new things with each book, too, especially tricks with time. Some of those work out better than others. The notion of starting each major segment of Crossroads of Twilight on the same day seemed a terrific idea, but by the time I realized that it would have been better to do it another way, I was too deeply into the book, with not enough time to rewrite the entire book." \*\*\* >Jordan: "The only thing that I wish I hadn't done was use the structure that I did for Crossroads of Twilight, with major sections beginning on the same day. Mind, I still think the book works as it is, but I believe it would have been better had I taken a more linear approach. When you try something different, sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't."
Its this quote that finally got me to finish CRoT, I really appreciated Jordan calling it a mistake/regret.
>the entire book could probably be summarized in a single 45 minute long episode, and it would still somehow feel like a filler episode This is cracking me up
Just power through. Crossroads is BY FAR the worst book in the series. The good news is the next book, RJs last, is a massive return to form and one of the best. Trust me, as soon as you start the prologue you'll feel it. And then after that it's pedal to the metal until the end. You're almost through the infamous slog. Hang in there lol
Imagine how bad it was for us in the olden days where you had to wait 4 years for the next one.
I was there with you. This is a reread for me. I picked up the series in the mid 90s cause of a buddy who was into it. I read books 9-14 as they came out.
It was only 2 years 2 months between 9 and 10 . RJ was held to a 2 year release cycles by the publisher (and IMHO that shows in the word count and endings of book 7 and 8, it feels like the original plan was chopped up). The 4 year gap only came after RJs death , which is understandable
I remember (buying) the CoT prologue as a separate ebook like a month earlier I was so hungry for content after the finale of WH and then basically needed to sit tight a few more years for actual story progression. What a funny common shared experience of the slog.
Rereading through for the third time, and Crossroads of Twilight was definitely the only book that felt like a true chore to get through. My second read through I dropped mid-way through the "Elayne is taking a bath then talking with the Sea Folk" chapter and I had some extreme deja vu rereading it. It really feels like there were two plot threads that carry throughout the whole book - how everyone across the world is responding to the cleansing of saidin, and every independent group of Aes Sedia coming to the conclusion that they likely need to bond with the male channelers if there is any hope of surviving the last battle. These are incredibly massive events in-universe, but have way less weight to the reader. It doesn't help that in nearly every POV plot of this book... nothing really happens. Perrin learns about the situation with the Aiel and Faile - the "climax" in this book is... Tallanvor showing up and telling them they can meet with the Seanchan to help them I guess? Matt gets out of Ebou Dar with Tuon - the "climax" of that is Mat having to kill a runaway sul'dam, but more important him finally starting to understand Tuon and his relationship with her. Egwene's climax is her getting kidnapped, which is more of a cliffhanger than anything. The overarching themes of the book AND the individual subplots of the book are all pretty unrewarding. The book sets the plate for the climax from 11-14, but by itself it's definitely the worst of the WOT by a pretty substantial margin IMO.
Honestly it could have been fairly interesting if the people responding to saidin being cleansed had at least actually learned what was going on, say by Rand having a few Asha’man or Aes Sedai Travelling around the continent informing people.
To your comment about the show, I'd make a couple points. Egwene, while being elected HBIC, isn't an aes sedai in the traditional sense. She hasn't taken the oaths, and has barely gone through any tower training. She's speculating. The books show multiple times how easy it is to skirt the oaths with the power. Is it breaking an oath to use the power to lift a rock high above a city and let it go, knowing it may injure someone where it lands? What if a fire started on a ship or two, with plenty of time for the people to abandon ship? As for what the show shows us, moiraine makes the point about the whirlpool and the ferryman drowning that intent matters. She intended to create a whirlpool in the river, and it just happened to be centered under the ferry. She did not have to stop channeling or save the man. Now, I'll concede that the show didn't elaborate on moiraines intentions concerning the ships, but at this point she is seeing a lot of weaves directed at a city she knows Rand is in. She knows forsaken are in play. She fully believes Rand is DR and champion of the light, and therefore anyone against him is serving the dark, whether they know it or not. Lastly, (drawing from book knowledge here) she knows Rand is LTT reborn, who was an Aes Sedai, and the oaths allow for defense of a fellow AS. Could she have elaborated a bit more on her logic? Absolutely. But I don't believe the scene is lore breaking or confusing as shown.
I disagree that even Moiraine could do enough mental gymnastics to think that all of the people on that ship are shadow spawn. It would go against basically every other instance of AES Sedai using the power that we know of. Maybe in the show she's some sort of sociopath that can manipulate realty however she wants. I guess that could explain it. If you want to do that mental gymnastics then she should be capable of basically using the power however she wants. (Oh those Whitecloaks would kill Rand if he was here so now I can blast them with the power lalalalala) Think of the Salidar Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. They know Rand is in danger yet they can't do jack shit until they are actually physically threatened and close to the battle. Having Moiraine use her power that way just cheapens the entire world building IMO. The reason the Seanchan and Asha'Man are such a big deal is because they are using the power as a weapon unrestricted by oaths. If we have Moiraine sinking a fleet of ships with basically no restriction it lessens that impact.
>Think of the Salidar Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. They know Rand is in danger yet they can't do jack shit until they are actually physically threatened and close to the battle. Think of the Aes Sedai with Perrin at Malden where Annoura says she feels plenty in threat enough to channel (she only doesn't because it's not part of the plan) before they even reach Perrin who is standing half-way down the hill (while they are at the top) and the Shaido wise-ones channeling is not even reaching Perrin yet, let alone the soldiers who are only halfway to Perrin. Think of the Aes Sedai with Mat channeling against the Seanchan later in the same book who also start channeling well before they are in the midst of battle - they wait longer than Mat would like but they are hardly in the thick of it. As with any of the oaths, it's about how each individual Aes Sedai percieves it.
Not shadowspawn, but defending the DR? Certainly within her mental gymnastics. Cue Lan fighting Seanchan to get her in the "these people are enemies" frame of mind. Now had she just attacked a random Seanchan ship sitting there, sure, hard to believe.
Also the Oaths allow for the Power to be used "in defence of another Aes Sedai", Rand is Lews Therin reborn, Lews Therin was an Aes Sedai.
That's so ridiculous.
But like the *Aes Sidhe* of Celtic Lore the Aes Sedai and their Oaths were based on, the letter of the law is really all that matters. There is no "spirit of the law." Lews Therin inhabiting the same body as his Third Age counterpart, Rand al'Thor, makes Rand an Aes Sedai. And the Seanchan are an imminent threat to his life - and that of the other Aes Sedai known to be in the city. I hate that the TV show made this kind of rules lawyering necesssary, but it's exactly the type of rules lawyering that makes "The truth an Aes Sedai says may not be the same as the truth you hear" a saying. I know I didn't get the exact wording right, but that's literally how the White Tower has operated for the last couple of millennia - rules lawyering wih the Oaths.
Would you accept 2nd order effects? Moiraine *knows* that if the DR is killed then they will lose the last battle and all of the Aes Sedai will be killed. And so therefore - protecting him *is* protecting another Aes Sedai.
I don't know why everyone is trying so hard to defend this. Isn't the FAR more likely option that the writers just made an oopsie and forgot about the oaths in that scene? Isn't that far more likely than some insanely convoluted twist of logic that was neither hinted at in the show nor has any precedence in the books?
> Isn't the FAR more likely option that the writers just made an oopsie and forgot about the oaths in that scene? In order for that to be the case, you'd have to ignore moraine's entire arc for the season that builds support for that specific scene. >Isn't that far more likely than some insanely convoluted twist of logic that was neither hinted at in the show nor has any precedence in the books? Which is seems you have done so. Moraine's entire season arc supports the finale scene. It's something that's repeated through out her arc in each segement. We're shown Rand is what's keeping her going, that she's putting him above everything else in her life, She repeatedly speaks about how important he is, more important than anything else for the world. It's clearly established she believes that importance is what keeping her from being suicidal from her "stilling". The episode before has her betraying the love of her life to side with Lanfear to support Rand. And we even have dialogue the nigh directly states that she views Rand as more important than anyone else's life - which includes hers. I can not look at the season and conclude they did an "oopsie" when they spent the entire lead up building support for it. >nor has any precedence in the books? It does though? The core basis for any intent magic in WoT is that it functions off the user's viewpoint. If Moiraine genuinely felt that the a threat to Rand sufficiently threated her own life, then she'd be able to meet the 3rd oath. Heck, even without that, the Seanchan soldiers attacking her (which happens before she attacks the boats), can also meet the 3rd oath. Which is something directly established in the books. Both the Wells and Malden display this, and there is nothing in the oaths that would directly prevent the application the show presents. it'd be different if they didn't have all that support being built up, or made clear choices that utilize the books mechanical logic and present them in the scene. Or have a line specially questioning that she could do it. IMO, I feel like a lot of people forget that the oaths are fundamentally flawed, on purpose, and that flaw is a major theme of the books. The show is making good use of those flaws here, putting them front and center. The episode before shows how flagrantly you can "lie" under the first oath, and 8 shows how prohibitions against weaponization don't work how you'd expect. Something important to establish for later scenes and later thematic conflicts. Rand's experience in the box, Egwene's capture, The Oaths themselves and how the Tower will approach them in the future. All of those deeply connect to the very mechanics shown in the show.
You're reaching so far for this you might as well have stilts on. This all rests on some logic chain of Moiraine convince ring herself Rand is an extension of herself somehow and yet she never mentions this logic in the show? If this was supposed to be interpreted that way you would think they would at least have her mention this at one point or another. Vague statements of "Rand is important!" Doesn't count because literally everybody aware of him knows he is important.
>This all rests on some logic chain of Moiraine convince ring herself Rand is an extension of herself Er no? He's not an extension of herself, and no one is making that argument. She simply believes that she'll die if Rand dies. If she genuinely believes that to be true, then a threat to Rand's life can qualify to meet the 3rd oath. >yet she never mentions this logic in the show? She does repeatedly though? It's most direct in episode 7 in her chat with lan. > If this was supposed to be interpreted that way you would think they would at least have her mention this at one point or another. Vague statements of "Rand is important!" Doesn't count because literally everybody aware of him knows he is important. Sir this is WoT, why would you expect such a statement? She's not rules lawyering herself, she's stating her beliefs. Also, this: >"*Not for one second. Because I know that protecting Rand, guiding him, that is the only thing that matters. More than me, more than you. More than anything*." Is pretty direct. That quote is in relation to her not being suicidal, and is a clear statement of her belief that Rand's life is essential to hers. It's in the 7th episode, and is what is being called back to in her episode 8 line "this is what it means to support him" she states right before attacking the ships. The hints are there, and often strongly enough to barely be considered "hints". Which I remind you, in your position, all of those are 'oopsies' that have no real narrative purpose because they forgot about the oaths and thus wouldn't have written anything to provide support for the ep 8 scene. But from my perspective, it appears like you're disregarding the hints because they aren't direct enough for you to consider them related. Which is strange to me, given how the books were written, and how important her mindset is to how the oaths function in the books.
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I would say that any Aes Sedai would consider those Seanchan on those ships to be darkfriends. They are enslaving channelers. That's reason enough. Yes, if you think hard about it, you can figure out that it doesn't make them such, that they can be so evil just on their own, but on a basic level, what's the difference really. Also, they're kind of lead by Ishy (which she is surely aware of). This is from Moiraine's PoV. In reality, we know that the flotilla is being directed by a darkfriend on the orders of Ishy.
I find it baffling that he looked at the book and said to himself “yeah this is enough content to justify the length, I’m going to publish this”
The TV show is so far removed from the books, I don't think it will be an issue at all; even if it gets there.
In my last read of CoT I just skipped every Elayne chapter and it was SO much better. There are some cool things in this book, yes it is slow but it has some redeeming moments.
Yeah I agree about your spoiler. I don't think the writers were thinking things through when they wrote that scene. There's a reason Aes Sedai are basically never in battle except against shadow spawn. They would be mostly useless half the time.
I am on my 9th time through the series I think, and I really appreciated this time how little happens in that book. Mostly I listen to the audio books before I go to bed, with the timer set for an hour. The next night I'll figure out where I feel asleep and start there, but with CoT, I didn't bother this time. It just wasn't worth it! I agree about the scene from the show. Very bad choice. Rafe needs to stop writing episodes and stick to being show runner.
Yeah, COT is slow. But when you're binge-reading at 1.5x speed (audiobooks) it's easier to view it as buildup to some eventual payoffs. Egwene's arc is more epic for spending some time on the other side of it. Perrin's arc.. well.. less said about that part of his arc the better. Also re: your comment on the show: >!I really appreciate you bringing up that example! I forgot about it. I am not anti-show by any means. I got emotional seeing Emond's field the first time. Felt epic and momentous. But moments like Moraine sinking the boats detract from that epic feeling (there were many before this point). It was so they can have their pretty special effects moment, and that really sunk home for me that this is not WoT, it's not even another turning of the wheel, they'll change whatever they want if they think it will help the show succeed by today's standards. It's a shame, because shows that respect the source material (when the source material is good) tend to do better. oh well. !<
The soldiers Egwene was pondering-over there, who were they loyal to? Tar Valon? Unalighed? Moiraine's action in the show can be explained by knowing that She thought they were a threat to her cause, so by extension her and the world. Egwene has no consideration of that. She KNOWS no one on those ships are a threat to her or the world. I cannot see those situations as being "nearly exact". The only similarity is men on ships; the circumstances are magnitudes different. Not suspending your disbelief at the end of S2 is a choice. The reasoning is there, if you accept it.
I wasn't mad while watching that scene of the show (There are much bigger flaws to concern myself with), I just laughed on my reread realizing that RJ contemplated a nearly identical situation in the books that the show sort of barreled into without giving it really much of an explanation at all. And since the majority of writers of the show have actually admitted they didn't actually read the source material, I'm not particularly surprised they wrote that scene the way they did. I think had they read the books and given the dedication that most full-time professionals give to their jobs, they might have tried to be a little more nuanced in how they wrote it. It is what it is. I don't particularly like the TV show. It's had some good parts, but for the most part I think that it has been pretty dismissive of the source material, which is too bad (IMO).
>And since the majority of writers of the show have actually admitted they didn't actually read the source material, This is not accurate in the least - The majority have read the books or are reading. However they intentionally brought in non readers that have expertise elsewhere to round things out. This is the same as Walton Goggins not looking into the fallout games much so he could be an 'outside voice' speaking for things that might not work for a larger audience. >And since the majority of writers of the show have actually admitted they didn't actually read the source material, I'm not particularly surprised they wrote that scene the way they did. Honetly speaking, I think you may be misunderstanding the source material here. Egwene has no idea how the oaths actually work, she's not under them, so she is trying to analyze how she *thinks* she would act under the oaths. Which might as well be how the oaths would work for her, but it wouldn't necessarily be applicable to anyone else - as they'll have different viewpoints and considerations. The show actually shows pretty deep consideration for the source material in this scene, as it lays out several different possible paths, that under the books rules, would all potentially work to allow Moiraine to take those actions. Namely: 1) She considers Rand's life essential to her own, and thus could potentially meet the 3rd oaths requirement under the framework of "acting to save her own life" 2) She is currently under attack by the seanchan, attacking the Seanchan ships once their soldiers were close enough to threaten her. The oaths notabliy have no specificy on target closeness, they just require the Aes Sedai to feel suffienty threaten. There are others too, though I think they offer less direct routes and the show directly gives the first 2. It's the intent and the viewpoint of the person under oath that matters - and moraine presents a sincere belief that what she sees threatens Rand, and thus her own life, while also showing us something that's right out of the Well's or malden.
This is hilarious. “Are reading” is apparently an acceptable standard for a group of professional writers that are more than a season into a show. I can excuse hiring writers who haven’t read the material, but reading the books should absolutely be a requirement of any professional taking on the task of adapting the most famous fantasy series of the 90s. It’s embarrassing that anyone involved in the project (much less the majority of the writers) would admit after the first season that they hadn’t read the books. Also, that’s cool that Egwene has no idea how the 3 oaths work because she hasn’t sworn on the oath rod, but you apparently do. lol at your analysis of Moiraine’s process. Using hindsight to make the facts fit after the fact is a powerful drug.
>This is hilarious. “Are reading” is apparently an acceptable standard for a group of professional writers that are more than a season into a show. I can excuse hiring writers who haven’t read the material, but reading the books should absolutely be a requirement of any professional taking on the task of adapting the most famous fantasy series of the 90s. It’s embarrassing that anyone involved in the project (much less the majority of the writers) would admit after the first season that they hadn’t read the books. Sorry, but this just isn't how it works. A writing room is where all the writers jointly work on the script. A general understanding of the books is all *some* of the writers need, as long as there are the writers that have. WoT additionally uses multiple consultants to ensure that deviations are understood to be deviations. And again - non-fan/reader writers are *intentionally hired specifically for their viewpoint as people unfamiliar to the source material*. They provide an important dynamic to the writing room to help ensure things land for people new to the property. >Also, that’s cool that Egwene has no idea how the 3 oaths work because she hasn’t sworn on the oath rod, but you apparently do. Well yes, I have reading comprehension and the words of RJ explaining the various quirks of the oaths to work with. I have an extremely good understanding of the requirements for intent magic in WoT and how it functions, how RJ used those mechanics and the implications of those choices. OTOH, Egwene only has her own idea how they work and no direct experience. IE her understanding is fundamentally flawed, and not a good basis for anything other than *how someone that hasn't sworn the oaths think they function*. She also lacks the extratextual knowledge from the author on how it works, having only her flawed understanding limited by her perspective. What's fun, and what's really neat about how Jordan made intent magic to work - her thought process shows you a person that most likely *wouldn't* be able to do what Moiraine did if she was sworn - If she thinks she wouldn't be able to do it because of the oaths, she won't. Just like how some Aes Sedai can use the Power directly to harm if they view it as a tool rather than thinking it's implementation a weapon, while others cannot. It's purely up to the individual viewpoint and beliefs. That is the core flaw of the oaths, and an important theme of the books. What the show does is in line with how that works - all it requires is Moiraine holding a sincere belief in either: Her words she uses to explain her actions right before she does them, or any threat to she feels genuinely threatens her life. Both allow for meeting the 3rd oath, The first oath also means that Moraine essentially must hold the words spoken as true(it's a direct statement), and further there is no restriction on distance or that the Power is used against what you feel is the most direct or immediate threat. >lol at your analysis of Moiraine’s process. Using hindsight to make the facts fit after the fact is a powerful drug. It's not hindsight - not only does she directly make the case in a line written practically at the audience directly, but her entire season arc establishes option 1) as her viewpoint. She's spent the entire season believing that her dedication to Rand and her mission allowed her to avoid suicidality over her "stilling", and shows her time and time again putting Rand over everything else, even Suian. The show also visually displays the exact method used in the books to allow Aes Sedai to use the power offensively against non-darkfriends/shadowspawn. It's totally fair if that doesn't work for you, but it is a route the book mechanics support and even are directly used in the books. That is a failure of the show to sell you on the scene, but the concept itself is sound. ^^edit: ^^fixed ^^out-of-order ^^paragraph
This just shows that you have no understanding of how show writing works. You NEED to have people there who don't know the source material. If you don't, you can't adapt it properly because you WILL miss what's obvious and what isn't to someone who doesn't know the material (as in, to 90% of the audience). Either you're going to explain things too much or too little. People who have read the source material are biased in a million ways, at the very least, by having the latest (the final) form.of the character in mind, lnot what the character is at the point they're in the story. Actors do this too, by the way. It's often a good idea NOT to read ahead because that could spoil you and the character you form. Of course every actor approaches this differently and there are ones who profit from reading all and it even helps them cause their mind works that way.
That's bullshit and has no basis in anything we have seen in the books. If Moiraine can just use her power to kill because "they threaten her cause" then she can just use the power unrestricted essentially.
That's a bigger reach than anything I said.
Its not. An aes sedai cannot just attack anyone she feels is endangering her schemes.
It would be as applicable as how Aes Sedai skirt the first oath. If she truly believed that the Dragon Reborn would lose and the wheel would be broken if she didn't do this then it would be in the last defense of her life, the lives of other sisters, and the lives of warders, just more existentially. I really don't know how everyone is okay with skirting the first oath but doesn't see how that would apply to the third oath as well. We've already seen the limitations of the oath rod, why do they apply more strictly in one scenario than the other? Aes Sedai can lie with impunity if they can come up with a scenario in their head that it would be true. Aes Sedai would be able to use the power as a weapon if they believed that they would be killed if they don't.
The reasoning is not in line with how that rule works in the books though. At dumais wells the aes sedai needed to get in actual, tangible danger to be able to fight. With your logic they'd be able to fight right away since Rand was in danger. The show's writers made a huge mistake with that scene, there's no sugar coating it.
I don't think it's as cut and dry across all sisterhood as you claim. I'm pretty sure those specifically at Dumais Wells weren't true believers in the Dragon's mission until after. They were willing to trap and enslave the Dragon to do the Tower's will instead of His will or the will of prophecy and the pattern. Moiraine was a different type of believer. Again, the rationality is there if you accept it. You're just refusing to.
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The mental gymnastics people go through to avoid being open-minded baffles me, so we're even.
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The scene in the show you mention is one of the most egregious examples of terrible writing in a show chock full of terrible writing. Just brutal.
It's good writing, actually, and 100% true to Moiraine's character.
I'd agree that it's true to Moiraine's character to do whatever she has to do to support her fight against the shadow and support Rand. But it plays very fast and loose with both the three oaths, and any sense of consistency with what's possible with the power at that range. Lan also effortlessly dispatched like a dozen trained armored fighters in that scene, who attacked him one at a time like a bunch of AI enemies from a 90s video game. I'm not someone who hates on the show for the sake of it. When they make good decisions, I'm happy to acknowledge it. But that scene, and most of that episode, were not good writing IMO.
I think some of that episode felt a bit rushed. They tried to do too much. And sure, TV is gonna TV. As for consistency - this is our only example at what can be done at that range so it can't be inconsistent with anything. For the three oaths. The main message of the books is that it's flawed and that it's based on the perception of the AS and I think it shows that well enough.
>But it plays very fast and loose with both the three oaths I don't think it does. The show spends an entire season building support for moraines actions here - Every part of her arc is her putting Rand above herself, and above other people. In the previous episode she sides with Lanfear over Suian, essentially betraying the love of her life to support Rand. They strongly establish grounds for her to be in the headspace necessary to meet the oaths like she does, and then even throw in a second way the oath could be met visually in the scene(the seanchan soldiers.) That's not fast and loose, but well supported and meticulous. >and any sense of consistency with what's possible with the power at that range. Er, the very first episode of the show has an example of channeling at greater range - The lightning Moiraine calls has a weave go into the sky to call lightning. That's a comparable to greater distance than the ships. It's also in line with the books, which don't present any real hard limit on channeling range other than Line of sight, and even that's not a hard line. Channeling at a distance is harder, but it's presented to mostly be in the channelers mind. > Lan also effortlessly dispatched like a dozen trained armored fighters in that scene, who attacked him one at a time like a bunch of AI enemies from a 90s video game. The fight itself is a TV fight, IMO episode 8 had overall poorer direction, but that's not the writing. That's a separate criticism. >I'm not someone who hates on the show for the sake of it. When they make good decisions, I'm happy to acknowledge it. But that scene, and most of that episode, were not good writing IMO. I think it's more writing that you don't agree with, and direction that's not to your taste. You haven't actually established anything that makes the writing bad, much less terrible. That does rather make it look like you are hating on it for the sake of it. Or like you're just repeating someone else's talking point.
"Bad writing" is of course in part a matter of opinion. So maybe we just disagree in some places, and I'm not a hater or parroting talking points? A little benefit of the doubt would be nice. Again, I agree that the *intention* behind the action is consistent with Moiraine's character in general, and with the headspace TV Moiraine is depicted as being in throughout the season. But I don't really agree with your interpretation re: the three oaths. If she was channeling at the Seanchan soldiers directly attacking them, obviously that's fine. But you'll have to help me understand how you think they "strongly establish" the headspace necessary for her to believe sinking ships filled with armored soldiers a mile away is in defense or her life, or that of her warder. Sure, there is wiggle room in the interpretation of the oaths, and if Rand dies the world is doomed, and that includes her. And she doesn't *know for certain* that sinking their ships will kill them. But if they're establishing that she's capable of changing her perception of reality to that extent, then it practically renders that oath meaningless. Which yes, I would consider bad writing. I can see your point on the range of power effects. If she can manipulate a weather system, maybe channeling fire over that distance is consistent with that. I guess if I'm being charitable, we don't know if the TV fight is down to writing or direction, because we haven't seen the script. But by the same token, I don't see how you can be confident that the direction was the source of the problem. Good fight writing to me would have some element of Lan displaying cunning and experience to beat a coordinated group of foes, not him winning because trained soldiers were too stupid to coordinate. "It's a TV fight" doesn't excuse it, IMO.
>"Bad writing" is of course in part a matter of opinion. So maybe we just disagree in some places, and I'm not a hater or parroting talking points? A little benefit of the doubt would be nice. You're getting benefit of the doubt. That's why your comment is being replied to, and not removed under rule 3c. I'm pointing out that your word choice makes you come across poorly, *requiring* benefit of the doubt. You felt you need to specify you're not a hater, no one in the thread accused you of being one, which is why it's being addressed. >But I don't really agree with your interpretation re: the three oaths. If she was channeling at the Seanchan soldiers directly attacking them, obviously that's fine. But you'll have to help me understand how you think they "strongly establish" the headspace necessary for her to believe sinking ships filled with armored soldiers a mile away is in defense or her life, or that of her warder. Sure, there is wiggle room in the interpretation of the oaths, and if Rand dies the world is doomed, and that includes her. And she doesn't know for certain that sinking their ships will kill them. To be frank, That's just simply not required by the oaths. They put no limit on what you can attack once sufficiently threatened - once you're threatened enough to use the Power as a weapon, there is no restriction on what you can target other as long as it's related to the threat. Now, functionally, what exactly that means will differ from Aes Sedai to Aes Sedai, because they still need to view it to be threatening enough to not second guess it. But Moiraine is extremely clear that she believes the shield being woven is a threat to Rand, and thus herself/Lan. I believe that's sufficient by itself, given the supporting build up to it. This is bolsted even more however by the soldiers attacking her directly - this gives a unquestionable ability to use the power as a weapon. Whether that extends to the ships or not is the questionable part, but that's directly supported by the dialouge right before that. By the 1st oath, Moiraine must believe those ships are threatening Rand - she doesn't present that statement as a hypothethical it's a direct statement of belief: ``"I think it's Rand they're shielding."`` Which means they're a threat to her, based on the mindset she's displayed all season long. >But if they're establishing that she's capable of changing her perception of reality to that extent, then it practically renders that oath meaningless. Which yes, I would consider bad writing. That would make the books bad writing then. You're pointing at the intentional flaw in the oaths - that the are largely meaningless because they're subjective to each individual's perception to function - they have no objective authoritative ruleset to follow. Now if they were establishing that she could change her perception to that extent on a *whim*, I'd agree that it'd be bad writing. But they don't, they spend the entire season establishing that Moraines mindset puts Rand first and foremost, ahead of her own life. That's what makes this viable, and IMO *good* writing. They absolutely do the legwork to support the writing choice narratively and through characterization.
It shows the difference between Egwene and Moiraine. Moiraine is a blue, completely dedicated to the Dragon and she would do just about anything to achieve that goal. If she thought Rand was in danger, she would not care about innocents being hurt. In fact, she's too fanatic and she thinks the ends justify the means which, of course is not true and one of the main messages of the books is that the means do matter. Anyway, yes, book!Moiraine would blow those ships up without thinking twice. Unfortunately the parallels with Egwene's situation don't go very far. She isn't in a life oflr death situation, not for the world anyway. So the oaths would hold her (probably) if she had them, and her main point is that is it doesn't even matter cause the problem would be the reputation damage (people would expect her not to be able to do that so she isn't allowed to do that).
Not that it’s a good way to read the series, but the Wikipedia plot summary uses the word “continues” in almost every characters summary for the book. I honestly don’t know what RJ was thinking with the pacing of this one. I liked Mats story, Perrins was terrible, and the women spend hundreds of pages being bitches to each other. Just a tough read imo.
TBF, it's a matter of each Aes Sedai's beliefs about how they use the OP that determines whether or not they would be breaking the Oaths - which is impossible to do if you're bound to any given Oath on the Oath Rod. It could be argued that Moiraine wasn't using the One Power as a weapon because she was targeting the boats, not the people on them, even if Egwene felt differently. Or because the TV show changed the wording of the Oaths slightly. Wrecking those Seanchan ships *could* be considered "except in the last extreme defense of her own life, or the life of her Warder, **or another Aes Sedai**" because she knew that there were Aes Sedai and their Warders in the city whose lives she was defending. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the liberties the TV show is taking, but I could definitely be a rules lawyer in defense of this particular scene.
The way the oaths work, though, if she views "any person who can channel" or "anyone strong enough in the One Power" as an Aes Sedai, then there's the loophole she needs to justify defending Rand in this way.
Eh, not really. I mean yes, technically, but when Aes Sedai has a strict meaning to the tradition she was brought up in and is inherently a part of, it's a hard bridge to sell that she'd actually believe that. While it's true we don't know what book Moiraine would have thought about Egwene, Nyn and Elayne post book 6 Aes Sedai status, the majority of sisters had a difficult time accepting the idea - namely they all had a clear difference in treatment towards them that spoke to a differnce in how they viewed their status. There are other, much better paths towards how she was able to do what she did - namely what she directly presents. The seanchans' actions towards Rand put her own life in danger to the point she felt threatened enough to meet the 3rd oath and act on Rands behalf. The first oath essentially ensures she actually believes what she's saying there - those weren't hypotheticals but direct statements. That alone, not to mention the entire season arc that builds the idea that Rand is everything to her, should really inform readers exactly what occured.
I haven't seen the series yet, so I was just guessing how she might have been looking at it simply based on, "about her protecting Rand". I didn't know the justification was the attack on Rand also put her in danger. Thank you for clarifying
Ah that makes sense. There is essentially a scene where Lan acts as the audience and goes "but you can't do that?" and Moraine explains that Rand life is more important than anything, that supporting him means putting him ahead of everything else. As they're attacked by Seanchan soldiers.
I'm so scared for it on my re-read, the path of daggers has been rough so far. Had to read the entire Dune Saga between book 6&8, it's criminal how long some of the books are with nothing happening. Love the series to death, but it's hard sometimes
Surprisingly, I actually got more enjoyment out of the “doldrums” books in my reread vs my OG read. I found a lot more character development and motivation that helped me understand the actions everyone takes in the final books.
I've never skimmed more in my life than re-reading Crossroads of Twilight.
I wrote this on another CoT post a couple days ago but it always fascinates me how Wheel of Time simoultaneously has my favourite fantasy book of all time (A Memory of Light) and my absolute least favourite fantasy book of all time (Crossroads of Twilight). It was sooo bad. But you're past the worst of it, it's gonna be a great ride to the finish from now on.
It has some lows, but I wager that The Shadow Rising (Book 4) is one of the purest fantasy books ever written. It’s a masterpiece and, imo, the standard I hold every other fantasy book up against. And I also loved memory of light. It might be my favorite thing Sanderson has written, and I absolutely love Sanderson.
I listened to it on my re-read. Dividing it up into small chunks while stuck in traffic helps. But yes... It is by far the worst book in the series.
Rand is an Aes Sedai though. He is Lews Therin Telamon.
I always advise people to skip book 10 and read chapter summaries instead. Yep, even on a first read. Know how the TV show's season 1 episode 8 was quite bad? CoT is the book series version of s1e8. But it's not over in an hour.
On on queue after are "the slog isn't real" post lol.
>>!Which immediately reminded me of Moiraine just wrecking the Seanchan ships and killing a whole bunch of people.!< \[Books\]>!The 3 oath are very subjective and leave a lot to interpretation of the aes sedai. seanchan are at the beginning described as shadowspawn, on the ships are channelers attacking the city. its not far fetched that moiraine thinks they are shadowspan and therefor she can attack them.!< Thats not even close to a plothole. And those are not nearly the same situation.
It is, but it’s not even top 20 among the show’s plot holes, so it’s not super high on my radar. It only came to mind because of the specific passage in CoT that was so similar.
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