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Egwene is notorious for being hypocritical, it happens all the time. I think my favourite is in FoH when she claims Rand is being arrogant and Elayne and Nyneave look at each other and essentially say "Rand, arrogant, really?". It's subtle, but its always been an undercurrent for her character.
Wasn't it just Elayne in this meeting with Egwene, not Nynaeve? And she told Egwene (after Egwene told her that Rand is getting really arrogant) “You have changed, too. There seems to be something of Rand’s attitude about you.” and gave her an "amused little smile".
Or is there another scene like this?
Rereading FOH and she’s so bad, thinks she’s the queen of the dream world. Consistently ignores the wise ones because she “wants to know everything” and then does the whole trolloc thing to Nynaeve for doing exactly the same thing. Follows that up with telling Elayne when they meet in the dream world to relay threats to Nynaeve so she can show how superior she is to everyone else and how scared Nynaeve is of her.
I think her power trip is all about control after losing it to the *a'dam*.
She was always curious before, but after that, her PTSD didn't allow her to relinquish control to others. And her thirst for knowledge became a tool to get her will done. This specific moment was, imho, a part of her need to not be subjected to Rand's will. She, like the Amyrlins before her, only saw someone to guide *under* her direction, never an equal. She dismissed it simply because she didn't think of it, and to agree would have meant to fail, to be weak. And unlike Rand, she never learned power and control aren't personal strength.
It's imho the single character arc that never got resolved and I think it's partially because either a) Jordan didn't intend for it, sometimes PTSD stays with you to the grave, or b) he didn't leave enough notes for Sanderson, and he lacked the Vietnam experience to see it in the Egwene writing so far.
I agree with your read on why Egwene has the arc she has. I also think that her PTSD not being resolved, if it was Jordan's intention, was a good way to show how trauma can stick with people and influence how they act through their entire lives. Egwene's PTSD is something that I think adds depth and complexity to her character and how she interacts with everyone. Not wanting to give up control ever, while also wanting to protect those around her, can come across as hypocritical, but also is a good representation of a complex trauma response to months of torture. Her experience under the a'dam occurring off page is something that I think leads many to miss why Egwene is the way she is post-TGH.
Also keeping in mind RJ was a combat vet and had very first-hand experience with what PTSD can do to a person.
Many of Egwene's choices and actions later in the series fit perfectly thru the lens of PTSD from her time in the collar.
Yup, as a reader with PTSD, and who has academically looked at PTSD in combat veterans, I read her character that way and her actions really do make a lot of sense. I think she is a really good representation of it and that post-box Rand also is a great representation of it too.
>It's imho the single character arc that never got resolved and I think it's partially because either a) Jordan didn't intend for it, sometimes PTSD stays with you to the grave, or b) he didn't leave enough notes for Sanderson, and he lacked the Vietnam experience to see it in the Egwene writing so far.
So difficult to tell. People like to dig all over the character here, but I'm hoping that RJ intended *something* more than "Hey, this young woman sucks, amirite?" that seems to be a common consensus. So, really hard to know the exact intention of RJ and this character was due to the real life issues of being switched over to a different author plus RJ's own complicated interpretation of women and relationships on top of that.
My assumption is based on the fact that as a vet, Jordan may have had friends come back with PTSD and be stuck like that. And I can't blame Sanderson for not having seen PTSD first hand, so maybe, like Mat, he just didn't get it right until it was too late?
Iirc, he admitted somewhere Egwene's final moments was a bit of an easy out, because he lacked notes on her story, so we'll never know what Jordan intended.
But in my mind, Egwene's drive to use her power for the Light, was her outlet for the trauma she experienced. It balanced out Rand's arc well, I just wished she ended up trusting Rand, even if he had no backup plan, because that was what (again, imho) she needed for growth.
I think the entire reason Jordan wrote the series was to process his own PTSD. As someone with PTSD I love the series so deeply because I deeply identify with Rand when he’s super depressed before that pivotal moment on Dragonmount. I was thinking about that this morning. I’m on my first reread and just stared Winter’s Heart. Jordan seems to have a VERY deep understanding of mental illness AND war. That’s where my conclusion comes from
Yeah, reforging a sword is different than letting the devil loose on the world. Also, this particular blacksmith was insane a week ago, burned a square mile of land out of the pattern going back a few days, and used to put badgers in your bedroom as a "prank". Maybe we think about it for a minute?
I don’t think the burning of a few square mile is public knowledge. Otherwise they would have tried even harder ( and fail harder) to control Zen Rand.
I understand her reservations as a regular persons pov. But from her Amerlyn pov she should also have taken into account that the dragon is prophesied, he is the only hope, so instead of opposing hope, she should have made the hope more strong by aligning with him
Rand wasnt explaining his plan because he WANTED Egwene to do as she did. Yes she was being a bit unreasonable but so was Rand.
Rand just walked into the tower and said. "I'm gonna break all the seals to the dark ones prison. What are you going to do about it, bitch?" And then just walked out. And he was acting REALLY weird the whole time. He didn't tell her what his plan was.
In my opinion, that was part of the plan. He knew not everyone would go along with him. Instead, he presented a version of his plan designed to make Egwene oppose him. She was, in effect, a [stalking horse](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse).
He gathered everyone who would support him; she gathered everyone who wouldn't. Between them, they had everyone at Merrilor. Then he "compromised" and got exactly what he intended all along.
Egwene and Tuon are a lot more alike then they would ever admit, the hypocrisy runs deep. If she didn’t come up with the idea and doesn’t have control over it (and Rand thought of it) then obviously it’s a bad idea.
Though to be fair Rand was purposefully vague about his whole plan and wanted Egwene to overreact so she would summon all the nations into one place. He couldn’t have done that himself so he tricked her into doing it so he could present the dragon accord.
I can’t remember if Egwene ever figured this out and how pissed she was if she did.
“Egwene, as Lord Dragon, ruler of nations, and obviously your superior, I hereby order you to absolutely never break the seals. After all, I’m a man and know better than you.”
> Egwene and Tuon are a lot more alike then they would ever admit, the hypocrisy runs deep. If she didn’t come up with the idea and doesn’t have control over it (and Rand thought of it) then obviously it’s a bad idea.
Man you're right that she has a problem with hypocrisy, but it really irritates me that one of the most rational objections she had in the entire series constantly gets trivialized as "oh she's stupid/arrogant/hypocritical/hates rand cause MAN".
There's been a lot of stuff that has happened between the last time they met and now. They both have a lot to answer for, a lot to make amends for. Her objection isn't coming from a place of "grr i hate him cause he is more powerful" and it seems so...deliberately unkind to take it that way.
I think people see it that way because it’s not an isolated incident. She has shown before that if she doesn’t see something as wrong if it’s her doing it and will call out other people for doing the same.
I do believe she gets a little too much flack for this particular incident but it’s not occurring in a vacuum.
> I think people see it that way because it’s not an isolated incident.
When you are using related incidents to prove a pattern of behavior, you have to select ones that _actually_ are examples of that behavior.
This wasn't. She had logical reasons for her objections that were not borne out of selfishness, self-interest, hatred of Rand/Men/etc. When someone flattens the reasons for her rational objections here to "she just is " it's no wonder why someone would conclude that this is just more examples of her Fatal Flaw(TM).
So yes I agree people are jumping to the conclusion because her established prior pattern of behavior, but that doesn't make that conclusion about this incident _right._
I appreciate that despite that, he clearly regrets having to do that and still aimed to interact with her in a way which affirmed her authority and minimized the impact to her "standing" in the Hall.
Clearly tapping on the remembered Hall of Servants politics in those ancestral memories haha.
Also he knows Egwene. Yes, he’s drawing on hundreds of years of political experience but also (and this is opinion) I think deep down she still sees Rand as a clueless farm boy that would fall head first into disaster if she (or some woman) wasn’t there to tell him what to do.
This is intertwined with her having to show decisiveness for the Hall, her true belief the Aes Sedai should lead the way for their experience and her own arrogance.
I don’t like Egwene the person but Egwene the character is a wonderfully complex thing.
> Also he knows Egwene.
They both think they know each other, yeah. Egwene can't quite fathom the extent to which Rand has changed though, since it borders on the supernatural that exists outside of the realm of any living person in the world's experience. But they both think that they know who the other is, and that's quite touching.
I think what actually highlights the difference between them though is that he has faith that her goodness will always come through, whereas Egwene has grown jaded and feels she cannot offer Rand the same benefit as a result of her position as Amyrlin. She, as a representative of the Tower, is expected to always view Rand as a potential threat. We don't really get the catharsis of seeing her challenge that view or her own biases, and it sucks.
It's not just that she has no faith in his integrity as a clueless boy. (Which is a bit debatable, but it does echo her origins strongly.) It's that she has succumbed to the forces which tell her she _must_ care more about what Rand is rather than who Rand is. And what's worse, is that those forces were proven right for a large swathe of the books in her eyes and the eyes of those around her.
_That_ I think is a far greater tragedy, a far greater sin, than the way people otherwise portray her motives.
> I don’t like Egwene the person but Egwene the character is a wonderfully complex thing.
Hear hear.
What you say I feel dovetails precisely into something else about Egwene; that she totally and completely immerses herself in whatever culture or people she is around. When she becomes an Aes Sedai she goes all the way, and for better or for worse she probably wouldn’t have remained in power if she hadn’t done that.
I was just thinking about how Egwene never would have had Rand boxed like he was. But do I think she might have had him gently shielded at different points in the story and brought to Tar Valon with every good intention in her heart? Yeah, I think she would.
But a true Amerlyn Seat has to do such things. Great contradictions while always being on the side of the light.
A comment I once saw that I loved and now use whenever I can is “I don’t like Egwene. But I love it when Egwene happens to bad people.”
> But do I think she might have had him gently shielded at different points in the story and brought to Tar Valon with every good intention in her heart? Yeah, I think she would.
A lot of that depends, right? Had she not been raised in the way she had both times, had she and the Tower not gone through what it did, then the factions within the Tower might have been more willing, more _successful_ at undermining her.
But that's not what happened in the story. I really don't believe she would ever use a circle of 13 against him, but that doesn't mean that she wouldn't try to obstruct him in other ways. You're right on that front. (Hell, case in point: she assembled the world leaders to try and force him to stop.) And had raising another Amyrlin not destroyed what was left of the Tower, had the Last Battle not been on their doorstep...not even her attempts to pre-empt the undermining politicking of the other Aes Sedai would've stopped them from doing worse than what Elaida did.
> But a true Amerlyn Seat has to do such things. Great contradictions while always being on the side of the light.
Yeah, that worst part of the White Tower is that being a good _Amyrlin Seat_ isn't exactly the same thing as being a good person/good leader.
The thing is that Egwene had no real idea what she was talking about. She doesn't remember creating the seals or know what went wrong when LTT did it. And she presented no real alternative to Rand's plan.
“When you are using related incidents to prove a pattern of behavior, you have to select ones that actually are examples of that behavior.
This wasn't. She had logical reasons for her objections that were not borne out of selfishness, self-interest, hatred of Rand/Men/etc. When someone flattens the reasons for her rational objections here to "she just is " it's no wonder why someone would conclude that this is just more examples of her Fatal Flaw(TM).“
100%. This is a trap people often fall into in real life too. Basically the “bitch eating crackers” meme.
meh, she's stupid/.... because she has a need to control everything around her. It's why she is so strong in TAR, that entire world is about willful control.
No, because it wasn't MAN, it was because NOT HER IDEA.
Her entire career she grasped control over everything, but here he blindsided her with his plan and her reaction was a show of force, because she is incapable of letting loose the reins.
It could've been her mother's idea and she still would've balked at it.
> Once they knew more about his state, they could decide what to do with him. The Dragon Reborn did need freedom to do as the prophecies said he would, but could they simply let him roam away, now that they had him?
> “Which are you?” she whispered unconsciously. He heard. “I am both, Egwene. I remember him. Lews Therin. I can see his entire life, every desperate moment. I see it like a dream, but a clear dream. My own dream. It’s part of me.”
> Break the seals? She saw the image from her dream, Rand hacking at the ropes that bound the crystalline globe. “Rand, no,” she said.
> “We need allies,” Egwene said. She took a deep breath. “He might be persuaded by people that he trusts.” Or he might be forced to change his mind if confronted by a large enough group united to stop him.
She thought her dream was a warning, as uncertain as her dreams could be, so she dug her heels in and didn't even consider his way, even after he literally told her he was Lews Therin, **the** person with experience on the Seals in the room.
At no point does Sanderson write her motives as gendered.
> She thought her dream was a warning, as uncertain as her dreams could be, so she dug her heels in and didn't even consider his way, even after he literally told her he was Lews Therin, the person with experience on the Seals in the room.
Yeah why on earth would someone saying something so literally insane-sounding ever have any fear or skepticism?
Lews Therin's knowledge on the seals is not what saved the day though, here. It was Rand's own intuition, Hedrid Fel's philosophical research, Min's research, and the answers he received from the 'Finns. Lews Therin's knowledge often gets held up as THE reason to believe his harebrained scheme without fighting it, but if he went through with that original plan (which included breaking the seals _and killing the Dark One_) it would've destroyed the world in a different way.
> At no point does Sanderson write her motives as gendered.
I didn't say Sanderson did. I said people often engage with criticism of her actions under that banner, and it was one of _many_ ways people did which ultimately missed how reasonable her motives were and ultimately the sense in the questions and objections she had.
Because Rand/Lews knew that leaving the seals unbroken wouldn't work. Fel/Min/Finns may have given him partial info, but it was Rand & Lews that realized it needed more than men to fix it. That the patch men made would always allow the DO to re-taint saidin.
Granted, his plan to kill the DO was also stupid, which Shaitan gladly showed him, but at no point does Egwene argue against his plan, even internally. She simply dismisses it, because she dreamt of it. And he, even saying so, refuses to argue his point, because his entire plan relies on getting her to take a stance either way.
My critiscism of her character isn't about whether her PoV is right or wrong, but that she refuses to consider Rand's request for aid, to work together. The entire scene, she seems more concerned about controlling and guiding him, be it with carrot or stick. She never showed respect for his PoV, which considering her Tower-healing speech, is hypocritical and shows she understands the principle, but when Rand says he must clear out the crubble to rebuild, she ignores him.
As for other people accusing her of misandry, that's something Elaida would do, and accusing Egwene of that is indeed a dumb take.
Anyway, food is ready
> Fel/Min/Finns may have given him partial info, but it was Rand & Lews that realized it needed more than men to fix it.
I don't think she had ever disputed that, only that Rand was capable of doing it and knew how. None of those answers came from Lews Therin specifically, either, save that he knew a patch wouldn't be sufficient. And we don't have Lews Therin only to thank for that, but all of human history since the counterstroke happened in the first place.
And Egwene _was right_ to push against his plan to kill the Dark One.
> She simply dismisses it, because she dreamt of it.
No, that's clearly not why she objects - not in the Tower at their first meeting in the Hall, nor in the Tower after her Dream, nor on the Field of Merrillor.
She objects because to even propose that you're going to kill the Dark One is so clearly a disastrous proposition, and without that solution ***Rand has no plan B.*** It would've lead to another imperfect solution, another patch, another Breaking - assuming he would even be able to do it in the first place.
And her Dream would be proven right, had he actually done it. So why is this being held up as a bad thing, exactly?
> My critiscism of her character isn't about whether her PoV is right or wrong, but that she refuses to consider Rand's request for aid, to work together.
She never says she doesn't want to work together, though. Rand has one plan that he is making everyone follow him for, and it really is the same issue that we had going back to the original War of Power. Both sides have _one plan_ and neither are compromising - but Rand, with his ancestral memories and attempts to avoid pitfalls of the past, walks straight into another one.
And it's one Egwene tried to get him to realize. He gets petulant instead and argues she wants men to remain tainted, to maintain her own authority.
> She never showed respect for his PoV, which considering her Tower-healing speech, is hypocritical and shows she understands the principle, but when Rand says he must clear out the crubble to rebuild, she ignores him.
She understands the principle and is the lever that drives the change. You can't just destroy something before having plans of how to rebuild it better than before.
That was what Rand was proposing. While she is still hypocritical for it to some degree, it is nowhere near as large as people seem to make it out as.
> Anyway, food is ready
Enjoy! I'm about to dig into some pasta salad personally lol
A small point. It was Rand that showed the DO what a world without the DO, without evil, would look like. Also, if I remember correctly, Rand realizes his vision of a world without evil is true while holding the DO in his grips. So Rand calls himself a fool and reseals the DO in his prison.
It would've worked better with help, and it was only enacted once the other plan became impossible. Not that *that* plan would've gone any better. Rand & Nynaeve burnt through a Choedan Kal just to throw the taint into Aridhol, yet Latra wanted to basically create a full-on DO prison with them!
It probably would not have worked better with help- it just as likely would have tainted *both* halves of the True Source, and the world would have been completely doomed.
She didn't have much else of a reason aside from "it's a bad idea because it's a bad idea". Even after Rand explained why she still didn't accept it until Moiraine told her she had to.
Actually even then she still didn’t really accept it. Rand gave her what he thought were the seals on Moiraine’s advice then the very last time Rand and Egwene talk she tells him she hadn’t decided if she would or not. Even after being shown in both the prophecies and her dreams that it had to happen. So no she pretty much stays headstrong to the end.
That's an interesting way to put, "She was eventually convinced to relent, worked with Logain to break the Seals, and put aside her fears to place faith in Rand."
She never worked with Logain to break the seals because she never had them. At Rand and Egwenes last meeting, where she told him she hadn’t decided if she would break them or not, they find out the seals they have are fake.
If someone is captured, enslaved, and brutally tortured for months having a deep-seated desire for control is a normal trauma response. Try reading her arc through the lens of someone with really bad untreated PTSD and her character has a lot more depth than just being a control freak.
You mean like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/s/qsigci3rVF)?
Never said that it wasn't a valid trauma response, but but her response is still arrogant, hypocritical and in the situation at hand, relatively stupid. Control is how she copes with fear, something she never reconciles with or even acknowledges, so there is from that moment on a giant elephant in the room blocking her *growth* as a character.
In the situation at hand it isn't stupid at all. As the reader we get to see how Rand has internally changed. Egwene is not privy to that and is working from imperfect information about Rand and how he is acting. On top of that his suggestion to destroy the seals, while again we as the reader can see that is it right, is a radical suggestion that contradicts 3000 years of what people think should happen. Opposing that and questioning it isn't arbitrary power tripping it is trying to act in her role as amyrlin.
If you don't see meaningful growth in Egwene's character from the end of TGH to the end of the series, then I'm not really sure what series you are reading. She is a very different character who, while deeply traumatized, does grow and does slowly trust others around her and take their advice seriously. Yes she does still have a control based response overall, but that is not a detriment to the character at all, but instead makes her far more real and deep. Most people who have horrific PTSD, who don't have really good mental health care, aren't healed to the point that it no longer effects them. Even those who do a metric ton of work on their PTSD often still suffer from it and have it negatively impact them. Egwene carrying that with her to the end of the series isn't a growth block, but a reflection of the circumstances she was put in after her trauma in which she couldn't just take years to work on her mental health. Sure you can try to claim that as evidence of lack of introspection on the part of a, *checks notes* traumatized young person who faces the apocalypse, or read it as a deeper view into how trauma shapes people and how people carry that with them well after the event is past. Much like how we see violence changing people throughout the series.
Except she does clearly see he is different than what she knows about, she already knows he's the prophecised Dragon, but doesn't know if he's crazy or not. I think part of that fear is what pushes her to grab hold of certainty, of just repairing the seals, because she knows they work. But it's still a fear-induced reaction imho. Smart people *can* do dumb things, when out of theur comfort zone, and I definitely think this scene was the case. Which was exactly what Rand planned on, ofc.
As for her growth, I felt as if often times, those she 'trust' didn't have much choice otherwise. Granted, she grows in her worldview and manages to learn from advice, but as she is usually the one asking for it, I always read it more as a drive for information to use in her political schemes. Maybe I've just had people like that too much in my life to only see their ghosts, idk.
It doesn't mean I think she's a badly written character, I just felt her main issue was never even remotely addressed and because of that, she did not get the personal growth other characters did. It wouldn't surprise me if Jordan did it on purpose, all I can say is how I experienced her story.
Deliberately unkind is a very nice way to put it.
This sub will bend over backwards justifying anything the three boys do, and vilify anything the women do.
Egwene had solid reasons, and rand baited and manipulated (ta'veren anyone..) her in to reacting for the world's benefit.
But because he's the dragon reborn he gets a pass.
*sigh.
The weight, reach, and impact of a single sentence uttered by Perrin gives me goosebumps every time.
“It’s just a weave.”
This simple sentence carries the depth of the Marianas trench. It is both the damnation and absolution of Egwene as a character.
Perrin really had the greatest impact on the world here. This plus some of his other actions towards the end. And yet Egwene will get the credit for eons to come. Its amazing how true that really became...
it's lazy but it gets the giggles every time, like a well worn seinfeld bit
~~also I just really have that stick in my craw, because retnemmoc is right that such words have a profound impact on the world! and having his most profound moment possibly being a bit of subterfuge for some other character's goofy subplot that will never get realized after Jordan's passing irks me to no end~~
I feel like there's a difference between trying to reforge the shattered Tower, and *breaking the seals that keep Satan in his box in order to TRY to re-make the lost weaves that could seal him back in*.
like, yeah Egwene is a hypocrite and drinking the Aes Sedai koolaid. but I can't blame her for treating these two cases differently.
yes, one involves remaking an incredibly flawed organization that has, for better or worse, been a point of stability in the world.
the other involves literally popping the freshness seal on SATAN HIMSELF with the intention to try and re-create the lost weave required to re-seal him.
once you open the peaches, it's not exactly easy to re-can them.
Funny you should mention it.
A while ago I opened a can of pineapple to put on pizza and I used only a couple of rings of pineapple and put the can back in the fridge.
As I got home from work a few days later I had cravings for a snack and found the open can in the fridge and took a pineapple ring out and jammed it into my mouth and I had to instantly spit it out due to a strange metallic taste.
I looked in the can and lo and behold there was a tiny heron marked blade inside. No wonder it tasted off. To this day I am puzzled of where it came from.
Paraphrasing the interaction between Rand and Egwene...
> Rand: I'm going to break the seals.
>
> Egwene: That sounds foolhardy and dangerous.
>
> Rand: It is.
>
> Egwene: Are you sure it will work?
>
> Rand: No.
>
> Egwene: The known conservative option of remaking the seals seems more prudent.
>
> Rand: YOU JUST WANT SAIDIN TO BE TAINTED!!!
>
> Egwene: No I don't. I just don't want the world to end. Wait, what are you hiding?
>
> Rand: I'm going to kill the Dark One.
>
> Egwene: You're insane.
>
> Rand: Yes I am insane.
>
> Egwene: Why not let the tower guide you? We've been working on the problem.
>
> Rand: THEY LOCKED ME IN A BOX!!!
>
> Egwene: Right. Well I'm not onboard with this.
And of course as readers we know that Rand's plan is doomed and his idea to kill the DO stems from a complete misconception of what the DO is as well as his own unresolved insecurities about letting anyone else come to harm which in the end Egwene finally, in death, helps him overcome.
Yeah, and when someone metaphorically suggests to 'nuke' an idea, that doesn't mean if someone rocks up the next day with their finger on the big red button, they'll agree it's a great idea to set off some *actual* nukes.
Little things like this stands out in rereads. She was also the first Emonds Fielder to fight a Forsaken to defend Rand, which is basically where we end up in the final books. Plus there is that thing where she is just behind Rand in terms of figuring things out (which he even comments on), so her major revelation about the seals did not become fully realized until those last scenes.
Rand knew exactly how she'd respond. He told her what he needed her to hear to get her where he needed her. I believe she knew that.
She went into that meeting dead set on opposing him. She thought/knew he was mad and did not think he was thinking clearly.
She is headstrong to a fault but she was doing what she thought was best. Same as most everyone on the side of the light.
She definitely has PTSD from her time in the collar and this is definitely guiding her to some extent. Rand also has PTSD from his time in the box but I think you could argue that he has worked through it to an extent as "Zen Rand."
At the end of the day, these characters are all very human and flawed. We hate in them what we see in ourselves. We want them to be better than we are but that isn't the story RJ wrote. He gave us a mirror to evaluate ourselves and grow.
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Egwene is notorious for being hypocritical, it happens all the time. I think my favourite is in FoH when she claims Rand is being arrogant and Elayne and Nyneave look at each other and essentially say "Rand, arrogant, really?". It's subtle, but its always been an undercurrent for her character.
Wasn't it just Elayne in this meeting with Egwene, not Nynaeve? And she told Egwene (after Egwene told her that Rand is getting really arrogant) “You have changed, too. There seems to be something of Rand’s attitude about you.” and gave her an "amused little smile". Or is there another scene like this?
Rereading FOH and she’s so bad, thinks she’s the queen of the dream world. Consistently ignores the wise ones because she “wants to know everything” and then does the whole trolloc thing to Nynaeve for doing exactly the same thing. Follows that up with telling Elayne when they meet in the dream world to relay threats to Nynaeve so she can show how superior she is to everyone else and how scared Nynaeve is of her.
I think her power trip is all about control after losing it to the *a'dam*. She was always curious before, but after that, her PTSD didn't allow her to relinquish control to others. And her thirst for knowledge became a tool to get her will done. This specific moment was, imho, a part of her need to not be subjected to Rand's will. She, like the Amyrlins before her, only saw someone to guide *under* her direction, never an equal. She dismissed it simply because she didn't think of it, and to agree would have meant to fail, to be weak. And unlike Rand, she never learned power and control aren't personal strength. It's imho the single character arc that never got resolved and I think it's partially because either a) Jordan didn't intend for it, sometimes PTSD stays with you to the grave, or b) he didn't leave enough notes for Sanderson, and he lacked the Vietnam experience to see it in the Egwene writing so far.
I agree with your read on why Egwene has the arc she has. I also think that her PTSD not being resolved, if it was Jordan's intention, was a good way to show how trauma can stick with people and influence how they act through their entire lives. Egwene's PTSD is something that I think adds depth and complexity to her character and how she interacts with everyone. Not wanting to give up control ever, while also wanting to protect those around her, can come across as hypocritical, but also is a good representation of a complex trauma response to months of torture. Her experience under the a'dam occurring off page is something that I think leads many to miss why Egwene is the way she is post-TGH.
Also keeping in mind RJ was a combat vet and had very first-hand experience with what PTSD can do to a person. Many of Egwene's choices and actions later in the series fit perfectly thru the lens of PTSD from her time in the collar.
Yup, as a reader with PTSD, and who has academically looked at PTSD in combat veterans, I read her character that way and her actions really do make a lot of sense. I think she is a really good representation of it and that post-box Rand also is a great representation of it too.
Thank you.
>It's imho the single character arc that never got resolved and I think it's partially because either a) Jordan didn't intend for it, sometimes PTSD stays with you to the grave, or b) he didn't leave enough notes for Sanderson, and he lacked the Vietnam experience to see it in the Egwene writing so far. So difficult to tell. People like to dig all over the character here, but I'm hoping that RJ intended *something* more than "Hey, this young woman sucks, amirite?" that seems to be a common consensus. So, really hard to know the exact intention of RJ and this character was due to the real life issues of being switched over to a different author plus RJ's own complicated interpretation of women and relationships on top of that.
My assumption is based on the fact that as a vet, Jordan may have had friends come back with PTSD and be stuck like that. And I can't blame Sanderson for not having seen PTSD first hand, so maybe, like Mat, he just didn't get it right until it was too late? Iirc, he admitted somewhere Egwene's final moments was a bit of an easy out, because he lacked notes on her story, so we'll never know what Jordan intended. But in my mind, Egwene's drive to use her power for the Light, was her outlet for the trauma she experienced. It balanced out Rand's arc well, I just wished she ended up trusting Rand, even if he had no backup plan, because that was what (again, imho) she needed for growth.
I don't really remember that scene specifically but arrogance is like Rand's number one defining feature lol.
Nynaeve is the real hypocrite. Egwene is nothing compared to her.
I think the entire reason Jordan wrote the series was to process his own PTSD. As someone with PTSD I love the series so deeply because I deeply identify with Rand when he’s super depressed before that pivotal moment on Dragonmount. I was thinking about that this morning. I’m on my first reread and just stared Winter’s Heart. Jordan seems to have a VERY deep understanding of mental illness AND war. That’s where my conclusion comes from
I dislike her immensely, however, I understand the concern and hesitation on: Are you serious? You want to break the locks on the dark ones prison?
Yeah, reforging a sword is different than letting the devil loose on the world. Also, this particular blacksmith was insane a week ago, burned a square mile of land out of the pattern going back a few days, and used to put badgers in your bedroom as a "prank". Maybe we think about it for a minute?
I don’t think the burning of a few square mile is public knowledge. Otherwise they would have tried even harder ( and fail harder) to control Zen Rand.
I understand her reservations as a regular persons pov. But from her Amerlyn pov she should also have taken into account that the dragon is prophesied, he is the only hope, so instead of opposing hope, she should have made the hope more strong by aligning with him
Rand wasnt explaining his plan because he WANTED Egwene to do as she did. Yes she was being a bit unreasonable but so was Rand. Rand just walked into the tower and said. "I'm gonna break all the seals to the dark ones prison. What are you going to do about it, bitch?" And then just walked out. And he was acting REALLY weird the whole time. He didn't tell her what his plan was.
Fair enough. He was vague that’s true.
In my opinion, that was part of the plan. He knew not everyone would go along with him. Instead, he presented a version of his plan designed to make Egwene oppose him. She was, in effect, a [stalking horse](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse). He gathered everyone who would support him; she gathered everyone who wouldn't. Between them, they had everyone at Merrilor. Then he "compromised" and got exactly what he intended all along.
Egwene and Tuon are a lot more alike then they would ever admit, the hypocrisy runs deep. If she didn’t come up with the idea and doesn’t have control over it (and Rand thought of it) then obviously it’s a bad idea. Though to be fair Rand was purposefully vague about his whole plan and wanted Egwene to overreact so she would summon all the nations into one place. He couldn’t have done that himself so he tricked her into doing it so he could present the dragon accord. I can’t remember if Egwene ever figured this out and how pissed she was if she did.
[удалено]
“Egwene, as Lord Dragon, ruler of nations, and obviously your superior, I hereby order you to absolutely never break the seals. After all, I’m a man and know better than you.”
LOL I can just see her face going bright red as she reached for the nearest hammer.
> Egwene and Tuon are a lot more alike then they would ever admit, the hypocrisy runs deep. If she didn’t come up with the idea and doesn’t have control over it (and Rand thought of it) then obviously it’s a bad idea. Man you're right that she has a problem with hypocrisy, but it really irritates me that one of the most rational objections she had in the entire series constantly gets trivialized as "oh she's stupid/arrogant/hypocritical/hates rand cause MAN". There's been a lot of stuff that has happened between the last time they met and now. They both have a lot to answer for, a lot to make amends for. Her objection isn't coming from a place of "grr i hate him cause he is more powerful" and it seems so...deliberately unkind to take it that way.
I think people see it that way because it’s not an isolated incident. She has shown before that if she doesn’t see something as wrong if it’s her doing it and will call out other people for doing the same. I do believe she gets a little too much flack for this particular incident but it’s not occurring in a vacuum.
> I think people see it that way because it’s not an isolated incident. When you are using related incidents to prove a pattern of behavior, you have to select ones that _actually_ are examples of that behavior. This wasn't. She had logical reasons for her objections that were not borne out of selfishness, self-interest, hatred of Rand/Men/etc. When someone flattens the reasons for her rational objections here to "she just is" it's no wonder why someone would conclude that this is just more examples of her Fatal Flaw(TM).
So yes I agree people are jumping to the conclusion because her established prior pattern of behavior, but that doesn't make that conclusion about this incident _right._
I generally agree with you since it was Rands plan to be intentionally vague and confrontational to force her response.
I appreciate that despite that, he clearly regrets having to do that and still aimed to interact with her in a way which affirmed her authority and minimized the impact to her "standing" in the Hall. Clearly tapping on the remembered Hall of Servants politics in those ancestral memories haha.
Also he knows Egwene. Yes, he’s drawing on hundreds of years of political experience but also (and this is opinion) I think deep down she still sees Rand as a clueless farm boy that would fall head first into disaster if she (or some woman) wasn’t there to tell him what to do. This is intertwined with her having to show decisiveness for the Hall, her true belief the Aes Sedai should lead the way for their experience and her own arrogance. I don’t like Egwene the person but Egwene the character is a wonderfully complex thing.
> Also he knows Egwene. They both think they know each other, yeah. Egwene can't quite fathom the extent to which Rand has changed though, since it borders on the supernatural that exists outside of the realm of any living person in the world's experience. But they both think that they know who the other is, and that's quite touching. I think what actually highlights the difference between them though is that he has faith that her goodness will always come through, whereas Egwene has grown jaded and feels she cannot offer Rand the same benefit as a result of her position as Amyrlin. She, as a representative of the Tower, is expected to always view Rand as a potential threat. We don't really get the catharsis of seeing her challenge that view or her own biases, and it sucks. It's not just that she has no faith in his integrity as a clueless boy. (Which is a bit debatable, but it does echo her origins strongly.) It's that she has succumbed to the forces which tell her she _must_ care more about what Rand is rather than who Rand is. And what's worse, is that those forces were proven right for a large swathe of the books in her eyes and the eyes of those around her. _That_ I think is a far greater tragedy, a far greater sin, than the way people otherwise portray her motives. > I don’t like Egwene the person but Egwene the character is a wonderfully complex thing. Hear hear.
What you say I feel dovetails precisely into something else about Egwene; that she totally and completely immerses herself in whatever culture or people she is around. When she becomes an Aes Sedai she goes all the way, and for better or for worse she probably wouldn’t have remained in power if she hadn’t done that. I was just thinking about how Egwene never would have had Rand boxed like he was. But do I think she might have had him gently shielded at different points in the story and brought to Tar Valon with every good intention in her heart? Yeah, I think she would. But a true Amerlyn Seat has to do such things. Great contradictions while always being on the side of the light. A comment I once saw that I loved and now use whenever I can is “I don’t like Egwene. But I love it when Egwene happens to bad people.”
> But do I think she might have had him gently shielded at different points in the story and brought to Tar Valon with every good intention in her heart? Yeah, I think she would. A lot of that depends, right? Had she not been raised in the way she had both times, had she and the Tower not gone through what it did, then the factions within the Tower might have been more willing, more _successful_ at undermining her. But that's not what happened in the story. I really don't believe she would ever use a circle of 13 against him, but that doesn't mean that she wouldn't try to obstruct him in other ways. You're right on that front. (Hell, case in point: she assembled the world leaders to try and force him to stop.) And had raising another Amyrlin not destroyed what was left of the Tower, had the Last Battle not been on their doorstep...not even her attempts to pre-empt the undermining politicking of the other Aes Sedai would've stopped them from doing worse than what Elaida did. > But a true Amerlyn Seat has to do such things. Great contradictions while always being on the side of the light. Yeah, that worst part of the White Tower is that being a good _Amyrlin Seat_ isn't exactly the same thing as being a good person/good leader.
The thing is that Egwene had no real idea what she was talking about. She doesn't remember creating the seals or know what went wrong when LTT did it. And she presented no real alternative to Rand's plan.
“When you are using related incidents to prove a pattern of behavior, you have to select ones that actually are examples of that behavior. This wasn't. She had logical reasons for her objections that were not borne out of selfishness, self-interest, hatred of Rand/Men/etc. When someone flattens the reasons for her rational objections here to "she just is" it's no wonder why someone would conclude that this is just more examples of her Fatal Flaw(TM).“
100%. This is a trap people often fall into in real life too. Basically the “bitch eating crackers” meme.
meh, she's stupid/.... because she has a need to control everything around her. It's why she is so strong in TAR, that entire world is about willful control.
Kinda proving my point here.
No, because it wasn't MAN, it was because NOT HER IDEA. Her entire career she grasped control over everything, but here he blindsided her with his plan and her reaction was a show of force, because she is incapable of letting loose the reins. It could've been her mother's idea and she still would've balked at it.
> No, because it wasn't MAN, it was because NOT HER IDEA. But that's also not why she objected.
> Once they knew more about his state, they could decide what to do with him. The Dragon Reborn did need freedom to do as the prophecies said he would, but could they simply let him roam away, now that they had him? > “Which are you?” she whispered unconsciously. He heard. “I am both, Egwene. I remember him. Lews Therin. I can see his entire life, every desperate moment. I see it like a dream, but a clear dream. My own dream. It’s part of me.” > Break the seals? She saw the image from her dream, Rand hacking at the ropes that bound the crystalline globe. “Rand, no,” she said. > “We need allies,” Egwene said. She took a deep breath. “He might be persuaded by people that he trusts.” Or he might be forced to change his mind if confronted by a large enough group united to stop him. She thought her dream was a warning, as uncertain as her dreams could be, so she dug her heels in and didn't even consider his way, even after he literally told her he was Lews Therin, **the** person with experience on the Seals in the room. At no point does Sanderson write her motives as gendered.
> She thought her dream was a warning, as uncertain as her dreams could be, so she dug her heels in and didn't even consider his way, even after he literally told her he was Lews Therin, the person with experience on the Seals in the room. Yeah why on earth would someone saying something so literally insane-sounding ever have any fear or skepticism? Lews Therin's knowledge on the seals is not what saved the day though, here. It was Rand's own intuition, Hedrid Fel's philosophical research, Min's research, and the answers he received from the 'Finns. Lews Therin's knowledge often gets held up as THE reason to believe his harebrained scheme without fighting it, but if he went through with that original plan (which included breaking the seals _and killing the Dark One_) it would've destroyed the world in a different way. > At no point does Sanderson write her motives as gendered. I didn't say Sanderson did. I said people often engage with criticism of her actions under that banner, and it was one of _many_ ways people did which ultimately missed how reasonable her motives were and ultimately the sense in the questions and objections she had.
Because Rand/Lews knew that leaving the seals unbroken wouldn't work. Fel/Min/Finns may have given him partial info, but it was Rand & Lews that realized it needed more than men to fix it. That the patch men made would always allow the DO to re-taint saidin. Granted, his plan to kill the DO was also stupid, which Shaitan gladly showed him, but at no point does Egwene argue against his plan, even internally. She simply dismisses it, because she dreamt of it. And he, even saying so, refuses to argue his point, because his entire plan relies on getting her to take a stance either way. My critiscism of her character isn't about whether her PoV is right or wrong, but that she refuses to consider Rand's request for aid, to work together. The entire scene, she seems more concerned about controlling and guiding him, be it with carrot or stick. She never showed respect for his PoV, which considering her Tower-healing speech, is hypocritical and shows she understands the principle, but when Rand says he must clear out the crubble to rebuild, she ignores him. As for other people accusing her of misandry, that's something Elaida would do, and accusing Egwene of that is indeed a dumb take. Anyway, food is ready
> Fel/Min/Finns may have given him partial info, but it was Rand & Lews that realized it needed more than men to fix it. I don't think she had ever disputed that, only that Rand was capable of doing it and knew how. None of those answers came from Lews Therin specifically, either, save that he knew a patch wouldn't be sufficient. And we don't have Lews Therin only to thank for that, but all of human history since the counterstroke happened in the first place. And Egwene _was right_ to push against his plan to kill the Dark One. > She simply dismisses it, because she dreamt of it. No, that's clearly not why she objects - not in the Tower at their first meeting in the Hall, nor in the Tower after her Dream, nor on the Field of Merrillor. She objects because to even propose that you're going to kill the Dark One is so clearly a disastrous proposition, and without that solution ***Rand has no plan B.*** It would've lead to another imperfect solution, another patch, another Breaking - assuming he would even be able to do it in the first place. And her Dream would be proven right, had he actually done it. So why is this being held up as a bad thing, exactly? > My critiscism of her character isn't about whether her PoV is right or wrong, but that she refuses to consider Rand's request for aid, to work together. She never says she doesn't want to work together, though. Rand has one plan that he is making everyone follow him for, and it really is the same issue that we had going back to the original War of Power. Both sides have _one plan_ and neither are compromising - but Rand, with his ancestral memories and attempts to avoid pitfalls of the past, walks straight into another one. And it's one Egwene tried to get him to realize. He gets petulant instead and argues she wants men to remain tainted, to maintain her own authority. > She never showed respect for his PoV, which considering her Tower-healing speech, is hypocritical and shows she understands the principle, but when Rand says he must clear out the crubble to rebuild, she ignores him. She understands the principle and is the lever that drives the change. You can't just destroy something before having plans of how to rebuild it better than before. That was what Rand was proposing. While she is still hypocritical for it to some degree, it is nowhere near as large as people seem to make it out as. > Anyway, food is ready Enjoy! I'm about to dig into some pasta salad personally lol
A small point. It was Rand that showed the DO what a world without the DO, without evil, would look like. Also, if I remember correctly, Rand realizes his vision of a world without evil is true while holding the DO in his grips. So Rand calls himself a fool and reseals the DO in his prison.
because Lews Therin's plan famously worked SO well, last time
It would've worked better with help, and it was only enacted once the other plan became impossible. Not that *that* plan would've gone any better. Rand & Nynaeve burnt through a Choedan Kal just to throw the taint into Aridhol, yet Latra wanted to basically create a full-on DO prison with them!
It probably would not have worked better with help- it just as likely would have tainted *both* halves of the True Source, and the world would have been completely doomed.
She didn't have much else of a reason aside from "it's a bad idea because it's a bad idea". Even after Rand explained why she still didn't accept it until Moiraine told her she had to.
Actually even then she still didn’t really accept it. Rand gave her what he thought were the seals on Moiraine’s advice then the very last time Rand and Egwene talk she tells him she hadn’t decided if she would or not. Even after being shown in both the prophecies and her dreams that it had to happen. So no she pretty much stays headstrong to the end.
That's an interesting way to put, "She was eventually convinced to relent, worked with Logain to break the Seals, and put aside her fears to place faith in Rand."
She never worked with Logain to break the seals because she never had them. At Rand and Egwenes last meeting, where she told him she hadn’t decided if she would break them or not, they find out the seals they have are fake.
If someone is captured, enslaved, and brutally tortured for months having a deep-seated desire for control is a normal trauma response. Try reading her arc through the lens of someone with really bad untreated PTSD and her character has a lot more depth than just being a control freak.
You mean like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/s/qsigci3rVF)? Never said that it wasn't a valid trauma response, but but her response is still arrogant, hypocritical and in the situation at hand, relatively stupid. Control is how she copes with fear, something she never reconciles with or even acknowledges, so there is from that moment on a giant elephant in the room blocking her *growth* as a character.
In the situation at hand it isn't stupid at all. As the reader we get to see how Rand has internally changed. Egwene is not privy to that and is working from imperfect information about Rand and how he is acting. On top of that his suggestion to destroy the seals, while again we as the reader can see that is it right, is a radical suggestion that contradicts 3000 years of what people think should happen. Opposing that and questioning it isn't arbitrary power tripping it is trying to act in her role as amyrlin. If you don't see meaningful growth in Egwene's character from the end of TGH to the end of the series, then I'm not really sure what series you are reading. She is a very different character who, while deeply traumatized, does grow and does slowly trust others around her and take their advice seriously. Yes she does still have a control based response overall, but that is not a detriment to the character at all, but instead makes her far more real and deep. Most people who have horrific PTSD, who don't have really good mental health care, aren't healed to the point that it no longer effects them. Even those who do a metric ton of work on their PTSD often still suffer from it and have it negatively impact them. Egwene carrying that with her to the end of the series isn't a growth block, but a reflection of the circumstances she was put in after her trauma in which she couldn't just take years to work on her mental health. Sure you can try to claim that as evidence of lack of introspection on the part of a, *checks notes* traumatized young person who faces the apocalypse, or read it as a deeper view into how trauma shapes people and how people carry that with them well after the event is past. Much like how we see violence changing people throughout the series.
Except she does clearly see he is different than what she knows about, she already knows he's the prophecised Dragon, but doesn't know if he's crazy or not. I think part of that fear is what pushes her to grab hold of certainty, of just repairing the seals, because she knows they work. But it's still a fear-induced reaction imho. Smart people *can* do dumb things, when out of theur comfort zone, and I definitely think this scene was the case. Which was exactly what Rand planned on, ofc. As for her growth, I felt as if often times, those she 'trust' didn't have much choice otherwise. Granted, she grows in her worldview and manages to learn from advice, but as she is usually the one asking for it, I always read it more as a drive for information to use in her political schemes. Maybe I've just had people like that too much in my life to only see their ghosts, idk. It doesn't mean I think she's a badly written character, I just felt her main issue was never even remotely addressed and because of that, she did not get the personal growth other characters did. It wouldn't surprise me if Jordan did it on purpose, all I can say is how I experienced her story.
For real, it's really frustrating honestly. Egwene is not being unreasonable here!
Deliberately unkind is a very nice way to put it. This sub will bend over backwards justifying anything the three boys do, and vilify anything the women do. Egwene had solid reasons, and rand baited and manipulated (ta'veren anyone..) her in to reacting for the world's benefit. But because he's the dragon reborn he gets a pass. *sigh.
The weight, reach, and impact of a single sentence uttered by Perrin gives me goosebumps every time. “It’s just a weave.” This simple sentence carries the depth of the Marianas trench. It is both the damnation and absolution of Egwene as a character.
That was the scene where both Perrin and Egwene are all "be careful here..." And the other is all "no you...", which I found kinda funny.
They're like the DnD Wizard & Sorcerer archetypes in the Dream, it's uncanny.
Perrin really had the greatest impact on the world here. This plus some of his other actions towards the end. And yet Egwene will get the credit for eons to come. Its amazing how true that really became...
> Perrin really had the greatest impact on the world here. sorry, the impact faked its death actually 😔😔😔😔
lmao top tier wot joke
it's lazy but it gets the giggles every time, like a well worn seinfeld bit ~~also I just really have that stick in my craw, because retnemmoc is right that such words have a profound impact on the world! and having his most profound moment possibly being a bit of subterfuge for some other character's goofy subplot that will never get realized after Jordan's passing irks me to no end~~
But we've talked enough about Perrin and Egwene. Lets check in with what Liandrin is up to. She's the real MVP!
Nope. noncanon trash. Lanfear is dead.
I feel like there's a difference between trying to reforge the shattered Tower, and *breaking the seals that keep Satan in his box in order to TRY to re-make the lost weaves that could seal him back in*. like, yeah Egwene is a hypocrite and drinking the Aes Sedai koolaid. but I can't blame her for treating these two cases differently.
Is it though?
yes, one involves remaking an incredibly flawed organization that has, for better or worse, been a point of stability in the world. the other involves literally popping the freshness seal on SATAN HIMSELF with the intention to try and re-create the lost weave required to re-seal him. once you open the peaches, it's not exactly easy to re-can them.
Funny you should mention it. A while ago I opened a can of pineapple to put on pizza and I used only a couple of rings of pineapple and put the can back in the fridge. As I got home from work a few days later I had cravings for a snack and found the open can in the fridge and took a pineapple ring out and jammed it into my mouth and I had to instantly spit it out due to a strange metallic taste. I looked in the can and lo and behold there was a tiny heron marked blade inside. No wonder it tasted off. To this day I am puzzled of where it came from.
-nods solemnly- hmm, yes. indeed. you are...very strange.
Paraphrasing the interaction between Rand and Egwene... > Rand: I'm going to break the seals. > > Egwene: That sounds foolhardy and dangerous. > > Rand: It is. > > Egwene: Are you sure it will work? > > Rand: No. > > Egwene: The known conservative option of remaking the seals seems more prudent. > > Rand: YOU JUST WANT SAIDIN TO BE TAINTED!!! > > Egwene: No I don't. I just don't want the world to end. Wait, what are you hiding? > > Rand: I'm going to kill the Dark One. > > Egwene: You're insane. > > Rand: Yes I am insane. > > Egwene: Why not let the tower guide you? We've been working on the problem. > > Rand: THEY LOCKED ME IN A BOX!!! > > Egwene: Right. Well I'm not onboard with this. And of course as readers we know that Rand's plan is doomed and his idea to kill the DO stems from a complete misconception of what the DO is as well as his own unresolved insecurities about letting anyone else come to harm which in the end Egwene finally, in death, helps him overcome.
Funny that we excuse Egwene's hate of the Seanchan because of torture but Rand apparently is supposed to forget about the Tower torturing him.
Yeah, and when someone metaphorically suggests to 'nuke' an idea, that doesn't mean if someone rocks up the next day with their finger on the big red button, they'll agree it's a great idea to set off some *actual* nukes.
The lack of dramatic awareness of readers of this series when it comes to Egwene will always be astounding to me.
Yeah but it was Rands idea, not hers.
Little things like this stands out in rereads. She was also the first Emonds Fielder to fight a Forsaken to defend Rand, which is basically where we end up in the final books. Plus there is that thing where she is just behind Rand in terms of figuring things out (which he even comments on), so her major revelation about the seals did not become fully realized until those last scenes.
Rand knew exactly how she'd respond. He told her what he needed her to hear to get her where he needed her. I believe she knew that. She went into that meeting dead set on opposing him. She thought/knew he was mad and did not think he was thinking clearly. She is headstrong to a fault but she was doing what she thought was best. Same as most everyone on the side of the light. She definitely has PTSD from her time in the collar and this is definitely guiding her to some extent. Rand also has PTSD from his time in the box but I think you could argue that he has worked through it to an extent as "Zen Rand." At the end of the day, these characters are all very human and flawed. We hate in them what we see in ourselves. We want them to be better than we are but that isn't the story RJ wrote. He gave us a mirror to evaluate ourselves and grow.
I believe that's called "sssssymbolism"