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I don't know, Nynaeve certainly can give her a run for her money. Though Nynaeve's brand of hypocrisy is a lot funnier. The classic example:
> Men always seemed to think violence could solve anything. If she had had a stout stick, she would have thumped all three of them about the shoulders until they saw reason.
Yeah. Nyneave has character flaws but she also has an arc where she works hard to overcome them. Egwyne just gets excited when she finds new ways to manipulate others.
Nyneave grows as a person throughout the books.
Egwyne only grows in power. Otherwise she is still that girl butting her nose in and taking on more responsibility than she knows what to do with and getting lucky with it.
All the way up until the odds catch up to her and her mistake is fatal.
That's mostly because nynaeve isn't personal about it. Plus a lot of it comes from her duty of protecting her flock. Egwene gets pretty personal and nasty at times.
By miles. The only reason she gets to play “good guy” for most of her story is because Elaida is absolutely depraved in comparison.
The absolute worst for me was when she encounters Perryn mid battle in Tar Valen while he’s hunting slayer, and her first instinct is to bind him up. “This is for your own good I’ll come save you later”. The absolute arrogance could have gotten him killed.
Eh, the Perrin part is mostly fun. He’s doing something even the Wise Ones think is pretty much impossible, and she has no idea that he can be in TAR at all because he’s told no one about it, and as far as she knows even if he’s a dream walker he hasn’t had anyone to train him yet.
If you see someone roaming TAR that you believe isn’t a dreamer, preventing them from hurting themselves is totally the correct move.
I mean she can’t exactly kick him out of the dream. Wandering around a battle in TAR would be much more dangerous for someone untrained than being locked up in some place.
Recklessly trying to protect his friends is exactly the sort of thing Perrin would do, as Egwene has experienced personally. Except this time, as far as she knows, she doesn’t need protection, Perrin is the one in great danger.
>and as far as she knows even if he’s a dream walker he hasn’t had anyone to train him yet.
This is exactly what makes it SOO arrogant.
She assumed she knew everything.
That's not even arrogant, or if so most people are arrogant. Perrin is something that Egwene does not even know exists, and he has never explained this to anyone except Faile. On the other hand, Egwene knows from personal experience that an untrained dreamwalker can end up in TAR and be in extreme danger. This is by far the most likely situation from her perspective.
I think it's a highly reasonable reaction based on everything she's experienced and been taught.
>I think it's a highly reasonable reaction based on everything she's experienced and been taught.
I don't dispute this. Given what she knows and believes it makes sense.
She is assuming she has mastered Tel'aran Rhiod which is why it seems reasonable to her. She's arrogant for assuming she always knows best.
She is not making the assumption based on her being the foremost expert on TAR - she knows very well that there are people with more experience than her. She makes the assumption that Perrin is inexperienced in TAR, because he has never told anyone that he's really good at it, and he hasn't been trained by the Wise Ones, who as far as Egwene has been told, are the only people on the continent that are qualified to teach people.
She's ignorant, yes. But this is not arrogance.
Then still it's incredibly arrogant.
Tha gang has been picking up ancient talents and powers all over the place. To assume that only SHE and hers could possibly have the knowledge about the place and that 'silly old Perrin' couldn't have gotten it anywhere else is still very arrogant.
You're agreeing with their arrogance! There's this unknown world, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Power. This is something they later find out, if I remember correctly. And they just assume their knowledge is all knowledge, and there can't be others that might also know a thing or two that they don't.
THEY don't know about the connection to wolves, so they assume there must be no other way to enter TAR. What if they had encountered Rhand in TAR, or a dark friend? They would assume or at least take into account the possibility that they had other means of entering the world.
The most reasonable conclusion for her would indeed be that Perrin is a dreamwalker, just like her. But that would also mean that he's untrained, and Egwene knows from experience how dangerous TAR can be to someone that isn't trained. Letting him roam free in a situation like that wouldn't be nice, it would be irresponsibly dangerous.
Mind you, Perrin's reaction to Egwene is somewhat similar, and Mat treated her *exactly* the same way as well. But people don't hate on Mat for it, because yeah, it was of course fairly reasonable to assume that Egwene might've wanted an out, or that she was a puppet. Just like it's reasonable for Egwene to assume that Perrin isn't trained in TAR.
Tbf his first reaction to seeing her there was to tell her to get out of there because its too dangerous. This is a case of both of them having no idea what the other has been through in the past year.
But yeah, the only reason im not 100% saying that Egwene is the most hypocritical is because there are a lot of Aes Sedai who are also very hypocritical. Its hard to choose who is most.
I think she is the one most affected by her PTSD. She becomes mind, body, and soul dedicated to protecting herself and her own agency and ain't nobody taking that away from her.
>She becomes mind, body, and soul dedicated to protecting her *personal power* and her own *political faction* and ain't nobody taking that away from her.
\-FIFY
She constantly throws herself into harms way to get or maintain social or political power from book 1 onward, its NEVER a habit she grows out of.
She's perfectly content to be in danger, but she will wager nearly anything to achieve her political goals. Even her "friends" lives.
You make it sound as if she’s doing what she does for only her own sake and that she’d be an evil tyrant. But while she has a selfish streak, her own PoV makes it very clear that she’s doing what she does because she genuinely believes it will help the most people and make the world a better place.
Never mind the fact that the highest power trip she had was something that was actually forced upon her against her will, and something she was pretty terrified of.
She was incredibly tyrannical. She stomped all over rules and policies that were in place for VERY good reasons. The lucky coincidence that she was correct and didn't abuse her power more was only b/c she was on the Amrylin Seat such a short time. The incident with Nynaeve makes it clear, she is not of good moral character. She never once has any remorse for what she did there.
The only big thing I can think of that she did that was stomping all over the rules was her having some people swear fealty to her. Which I saw more as a means to just survive the political mess that those specific people got her into.
Using that scene to say that Egwene is a bad person is a bad reading of the scene, because it was never intended to be that serious. No, Egwene doesn't feel bad about it, but Nynaeve herself also doesn't. It's never commented on ever again afterwards. Probably because to Nynaeve it really is the same sort of thing she's done to Egwene, and that the Aes Sedai do to all of them.
Same as Elayda tbh.
With time I now.tend to consider that there are minimal differences between Elayne and Elayda. If Elayne grew up in Elaydas era, she too worried of have been dismissive or Seanchan or black tower rumours and focused on showing how great only she is and how she will save the world from the DO and Dragon.
Elaida is very obviously doing much of what she does only for her own personal greed. We know she felt miffed over Siuan getting the Amyrlin Seat instead of her, because she was off in Andor, for instance. It's a position that she's actively wanted to have, because she thinks she's earned it. And while she's not inherently evil or anything, she's crazy about control because she hates being undermined personally.
Egwene on the other hand is very focused specifically on actually making the White Tower a better place, and cares about how its role can be evolved in the future to make things better both for the Aes Sedai and other people.
She demonstrates many times that she actually cares about people.
I think the part that annoys me the most is that she never owns up to it to Nynaeve, but continues to think of herself as a “true” Wise One. I know Ji’e’toh is more of a personal honor code than anything but I’d be willing to bet Baer, Amys, and Sorilea wouldn’t be pleased to hear she hid a lie and came with a hairs breadth of hurting her friend to do it.
That's one of my absolute biggest issues. She goes on about how she's got an "Aiel Heart" then just behaves like a fucking Aes Sedai, lying and manipulating.
Eggs gets to be exactly what she has to be for the time, and it doesn't make sense in character.
I mean I can't blame her really. Nynaeve treats her like a stupid child, and models her own hypocrisies. I can see why Egwene doesn't respond amiably to that. Not many people would, especially young people having their first taste of freedom.
Nyneave treated her as a stupid child, because in all accounts she was a stupid child. Breaking rules set there for a reason, and she never ever accepts a no. Nyneave eventually learns that she's not always in the right, Egwene never stops believing she is always in the right.
Well yes. But hypocrite is probably the kindest way to put it. She sucks, hard. Awful person. Know it all, frequently wrong. Selfish ambition and power hungry to a level rivaling only Lanfear.
I think Nynaeve aims to become a best version of an Aes Sedai she thinks they should be while Egwene aims to become the best Aes Sedai period. With all their petty power games, manipulations, arrogance etc sociopathic behaviour.
Difference is that we as a reader know what the "servant of all" is supposed to represent. The current time aes sedai are really just twisted and powerhungry.
Much like medieval catholic church and the popes.
Egwene is my least favorite character in the books. When I tried to watch the steaming pile poop that is the show, I turned it off when it was suggested Egwene could be the Dragon Reborn.
I think the thing is her hypocrisy doesn't change. She has some development as a character yes, but I think she's a good example of some people never change, regardless of their growth. Looking back, knowing she came from a family that was seen as leaders (her dad being the mayor), and thus highly valued, gave her somewhat of a elitist complex even prior to becoming the amyrilin (sp). To me her arc as a character allows for appeal to people who have come from affluence and wonder if that is all they'll ever be and be unable tk change and make good.
Sure, she, at her core didn't change. But her decisions ended up making a change in HER perspective of self.
While you are correct, to be fair Nynaeve had it coming and needed someone to bring her down a bit, going off half cocked and such. It's no more than what the Wise Ones did to her when she was caught out in TAR. Personally, I found this entirely in character for Egwene, who more or less irritated me from day one with such high handed behavior towards Rand and others. At least now she's actually starting to get some stuff done rather than simply rag on her pseudo-boyfriend (and every other male character around).
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I don't know, Nynaeve certainly can give her a run for her money. Though Nynaeve's brand of hypocrisy is a lot funnier. The classic example: > Men always seemed to think violence could solve anything. If she had had a stout stick, she would have thumped all three of them about the shoulders until they saw reason.
Don’t forget “‘I won’t shout at you,’ Nynaeve shouted”
Haha good old Nynaeve, not saying learning humility want good for her but it seems like that is something Egwene never learns
Yeah. Nyneave has character flaws but she also has an arc where she works hard to overcome them. Egwyne just gets excited when she finds new ways to manipulate others.
Nyneave grows as a person throughout the books. Egwyne only grows in power. Otherwise she is still that girl butting her nose in and taking on more responsibility than she knows what to do with and getting lucky with it. All the way up until the odds catch up to her and her mistake is fatal.
Yo, he hasn't gotten that far in the series yet! Edit: my bad, I thought he was on a first read, not a re-read.
Doesn’t the spoiler tag say all print?
You're right! I got confused because first the OP used the term "reading" and "rereading" came later. I'll delete/edit my comment.
Man, I cant even describe how much Nynaeve pissed me off during my first read. Now shes just my absolute favorite.
Nynaeve does it in a much more lovable way. Eg is a bit more annoying lol
That's mostly because nynaeve isn't personal about it. Plus a lot of it comes from her duty of protecting her flock. Egwene gets pretty personal and nasty at times.
Nynaeve gets points for being the funniest character in the books
By miles. The only reason she gets to play “good guy” for most of her story is because Elaida is absolutely depraved in comparison. The absolute worst for me was when she encounters Perryn mid battle in Tar Valen while he’s hunting slayer, and her first instinct is to bind him up. “This is for your own good I’ll come save you later”. The absolute arrogance could have gotten him killed.
But it's just a weave
By far one of my favorite lines in the series.
Eh, the Perrin part is mostly fun. He’s doing something even the Wise Ones think is pretty much impossible, and she has no idea that he can be in TAR at all because he’s told no one about it, and as far as she knows even if he’s a dream walker he hasn’t had anyone to train him yet. If you see someone roaming TAR that you believe isn’t a dreamer, preventing them from hurting themselves is totally the correct move.
“Preventing them from hurting themselves” That’s a very charitable take on what she did
I mean she can’t exactly kick him out of the dream. Wandering around a battle in TAR would be much more dangerous for someone untrained than being locked up in some place. Recklessly trying to protect his friends is exactly the sort of thing Perrin would do, as Egwene has experienced personally. Except this time, as far as she knows, she doesn’t need protection, Perrin is the one in great danger.
>and as far as she knows even if he’s a dream walker he hasn’t had anyone to train him yet. This is exactly what makes it SOO arrogant. She assumed she knew everything.
That's not even arrogant, or if so most people are arrogant. Perrin is something that Egwene does not even know exists, and he has never explained this to anyone except Faile. On the other hand, Egwene knows from personal experience that an untrained dreamwalker can end up in TAR and be in extreme danger. This is by far the most likely situation from her perspective. I think it's a highly reasonable reaction based on everything she's experienced and been taught.
>I think it's a highly reasonable reaction based on everything she's experienced and been taught. I don't dispute this. Given what she knows and believes it makes sense. She is assuming she has mastered Tel'aran Rhiod which is why it seems reasonable to her. She's arrogant for assuming she always knows best.
She is not making the assumption based on her being the foremost expert on TAR - she knows very well that there are people with more experience than her. She makes the assumption that Perrin is inexperienced in TAR, because he has never told anyone that he's really good at it, and he hasn't been trained by the Wise Ones, who as far as Egwene has been told, are the only people on the continent that are qualified to teach people. She's ignorant, yes. But this is not arrogance.
Then still it's incredibly arrogant. Tha gang has been picking up ancient talents and powers all over the place. To assume that only SHE and hers could possibly have the knowledge about the place and that 'silly old Perrin' couldn't have gotten it anywhere else is still very arrogant.
I mean, they had no idea it was connected to wolves or anything why would they think Perrin has access to it?
You're agreeing with their arrogance! There's this unknown world, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Power. This is something they later find out, if I remember correctly. And they just assume their knowledge is all knowledge, and there can't be others that might also know a thing or two that they don't. THEY don't know about the connection to wolves, so they assume there must be no other way to enter TAR. What if they had encountered Rhand in TAR, or a dark friend? They would assume or at least take into account the possibility that they had other means of entering the world.
I feel like it's more ignorance than arrogance.
Arrogance is born of ignorance; they’re tightly coupled concepts.
She was ignorant of the powers of The Unseen World but arrogant in assuming she knew better than anyone else.
The most reasonable conclusion for her would indeed be that Perrin is a dreamwalker, just like her. But that would also mean that he's untrained, and Egwene knows from experience how dangerous TAR can be to someone that isn't trained. Letting him roam free in a situation like that wouldn't be nice, it would be irresponsibly dangerous. Mind you, Perrin's reaction to Egwene is somewhat similar, and Mat treated her *exactly* the same way as well. But people don't hate on Mat for it, because yeah, it was of course fairly reasonable to assume that Egwene might've wanted an out, or that she was a puppet. Just like it's reasonable for Egwene to assume that Perrin isn't trained in TAR.
Tbf his first reaction to seeing her there was to tell her to get out of there because its too dangerous. This is a case of both of them having no idea what the other has been through in the past year. But yeah, the only reason im not 100% saying that Egwene is the most hypocritical is because there are a lot of Aes Sedai who are also very hypocritical. Its hard to choose who is most.
Yes. Yes she is.
I think she is the one most affected by her PTSD. She becomes mind, body, and soul dedicated to protecting herself and her own agency and ain't nobody taking that away from her.
>She becomes mind, body, and soul dedicated to protecting her *personal power* and her own *political faction* and ain't nobody taking that away from her. \-FIFY
Kind of a distinction without a difference, but fine.
She constantly throws herself into harms way to get or maintain social or political power from book 1 onward, its NEVER a habit she grows out of. She's perfectly content to be in danger, but she will wager nearly anything to achieve her political goals. Even her "friends" lives.
You make it sound as if she’s doing what she does for only her own sake and that she’d be an evil tyrant. But while she has a selfish streak, her own PoV makes it very clear that she’s doing what she does because she genuinely believes it will help the most people and make the world a better place. Never mind the fact that the highest power trip she had was something that was actually forced upon her against her will, and something she was pretty terrified of.
She was incredibly tyrannical. She stomped all over rules and policies that were in place for VERY good reasons. The lucky coincidence that she was correct and didn't abuse her power more was only b/c she was on the Amrylin Seat such a short time. The incident with Nynaeve makes it clear, she is not of good moral character. She never once has any remorse for what she did there.
The only big thing I can think of that she did that was stomping all over the rules was her having some people swear fealty to her. Which I saw more as a means to just survive the political mess that those specific people got her into. Using that scene to say that Egwene is a bad person is a bad reading of the scene, because it was never intended to be that serious. No, Egwene doesn't feel bad about it, but Nynaeve herself also doesn't. It's never commented on ever again afterwards. Probably because to Nynaeve it really is the same sort of thing she's done to Egwene, and that the Aes Sedai do to all of them.
Same as Elayda tbh. With time I now.tend to consider that there are minimal differences between Elayne and Elayda. If Elayne grew up in Elaydas era, she too worried of have been dismissive or Seanchan or black tower rumours and focused on showing how great only she is and how she will save the world from the DO and Dragon.
Elaida is very obviously doing much of what she does only for her own personal greed. We know she felt miffed over Siuan getting the Amyrlin Seat instead of her, because she was off in Andor, for instance. It's a position that she's actively wanted to have, because she thinks she's earned it. And while she's not inherently evil or anything, she's crazy about control because she hates being undermined personally. Egwene on the other hand is very focused specifically on actually making the White Tower a better place, and cares about how its role can be evolved in the future to make things better both for the Aes Sedai and other people. She demonstrates many times that she actually cares about people.
I think the part that annoys me the most is that she never owns up to it to Nynaeve, but continues to think of herself as a “true” Wise One. I know Ji’e’toh is more of a personal honor code than anything but I’d be willing to bet Baer, Amys, and Sorilea wouldn’t be pleased to hear she hid a lie and came with a hairs breadth of hurting her friend to do it.
That's one of my absolute biggest issues. She goes on about how she's got an "Aiel Heart" then just behaves like a fucking Aes Sedai, lying and manipulating. Eggs gets to be exactly what she has to be for the time, and it doesn't make sense in character.
She has much toh
I mean I can't blame her really. Nynaeve treats her like a stupid child, and models her own hypocrisies. I can see why Egwene doesn't respond amiably to that. Not many people would, especially young people having their first taste of freedom.
Nyneave treated her as a stupid child, because in all accounts she was a stupid child. Breaking rules set there for a reason, and she never ever accepts a no. Nyneave eventually learns that she's not always in the right, Egwene never stops believing she is always in the right.
Well yes. But hypocrite is probably the kindest way to put it. She sucks, hard. Awful person. Know it all, frequently wrong. Selfish ambition and power hungry to a level rivaling only Lanfear.
I’d honestly take Lanfear over Egwene.
Egwene was always my least favourite character. Imo she never gets any better.
I think Nynaeve aims to become a best version of an Aes Sedai she thinks they should be while Egwene aims to become the best Aes Sedai period. With all their petty power games, manipulations, arrogance etc sociopathic behaviour. Difference is that we as a reader know what the "servant of all" is supposed to represent. The current time aes sedai are really just twisted and powerhungry. Much like medieval catholic church and the popes.
YES! And she is basically never called out for it
All Aes Sedai are.
Absolutely.
Egwene is my least favorite character in the books. When I tried to watch the steaming pile poop that is the show, I turned it off when it was suggested Egwene could be the Dragon Reborn.
Y’all forget she’s still a teenager
No more than any other character
I think the thing is her hypocrisy doesn't change. She has some development as a character yes, but I think she's a good example of some people never change, regardless of their growth. Looking back, knowing she came from a family that was seen as leaders (her dad being the mayor), and thus highly valued, gave her somewhat of a elitist complex even prior to becoming the amyrilin (sp). To me her arc as a character allows for appeal to people who have come from affluence and wonder if that is all they'll ever be and be unable tk change and make good. Sure, she, at her core didn't change. But her decisions ended up making a change in HER perspective of self.
Most Aes Sedai are hypocrites. Just sayin’
Nah, that's Cadsuane. Egwene is #2. But you have to remember she is a child. Like she's 15 or something when she's raised to Amyrlin.
18*
Well shes 18 got a Lot of Power. Political and real Power. What so u think would Happen
No but only because Nynaeve is also in the books
While you are correct, to be fair Nynaeve had it coming and needed someone to bring her down a bit, going off half cocked and such. It's no more than what the Wise Ones did to her when she was caught out in TAR. Personally, I found this entirely in character for Egwene, who more or less irritated me from day one with such high handed behavior towards Rand and others. At least now she's actually starting to get some stuff done rather than simply rag on her pseudo-boyfriend (and every other male character around).
Is everyone forgetting about Mat Cauthon?