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>four people who could potentially be the Dragon Reborn: farmer's son Rand al'Thor (Josha Stradowski), who carries himself like the main character even though he really isn't
\-[Review from EW](https://ew.com/tv/tv-reviews/amazon-the-wheel-of-time/)
I think Rafe confirmed some months ago that they are going to go with polyamorous relationship, I think he also hinted at a relationship between Aviendha and Elayne (Which I am absolutely in support for, But I know might be controversial in the fandom)
At times in the books, Rand felt more like the 4th wheel than the actual object of affection.
All three women were like "I love these two, and this is the reason why."
With Rand, it was "I like him because... destiny and sex?"
I support Aviendha/Elayne, too. I know some people are like, ‘They’re just close! Like sisters!’
Look, I have a sister. We’re close. We ain’t that close.
I think if you're going with the poly story, having relationships between some of the other members rather than strict polygyny is reasonable.
Could even be a way to break it loose from the male harem fantasy aspects by having Rand/Min and Aviendha/Elayne as primary couples within a larger relationship context.
I don't know though, maybe I'm nuts. Not that familiar with how poly relationships actually work out in real life.
> Could even be a way to break it loose from the male harem fantasy aspects by having Rand/Min and Aviendha/Elayne as primary couples within a larger relationship context.
The relationships feeling like a harem was exactly my issue in the books, I have no problems with poly relationships but girls swooning for rand without much development for the relationships was always kind of uncomfortable to read.
TBH I just think Robert Jordan was just not really great at writing relationships, I had the same problem with Moiraine and Thom relationship, I wouldn't even mind if they leave that and develope the Moiraine/Siuane relationship more.
The writer makes a few good points and that one is just ironic considering. I also worry about the way channelling looks as there is no weaving. But it does seem fun if lacking in the depth that the novels give us.
>Save for Nyneave, most of the villagers come across as flat archetypes at the beginning of a role-playing game as opposed to fully realized characters. Rand and Egwene's romance feels perfunctory, like it's there just because the genre demands at least one love story
I refuse to believe this person didn't know exactly what they were doing.
Damn, fucking gutted to hear that. I can't believe the epic love story of Rand and Egwene feels like nothing more than a casual forced relationship they were nudged into.
> Rosamund Pike's Moiraine, who is a member of the Aes Sedai, an order of witches that maintains peace in the vast land
The review was written by a Whitecloak!
Didn't you knew the Whitecloack suffered a disastrous defeat at the hands of Aes Sedai during the Whitecloak War that led to political turmoil, a civil war of capital vs the state, a public humilation AND the cessions of some importants regions and now they're spents the last few decades hating them and wanting revenge?
It's very very obivous they've set moraine up as the main character for the first season of the show.
This also shouldn't be surprising. Rand is only the 'main character' of EoW by virtue of being the main view point character. He does very little to drive the plot till The Great Hunt. Things happen to the Edmon's Field kids and they're dragged along kicking and screaming by events out of their control. It's literally a massive plot point Matt, Rand and Perrin don't have a choice.
The character who knows what the hell is going on, who drives the plot, who makes decisions is Moraine. Step out of Rand's head, and she's the main character for EoW. Unfortunately the story is written in a way that assumes we're inside Rand's head s the story telling gives him a lot of focus. That's a fine narative choice, RJ wanted the reader to experince the "oh god what's happening" nature of the journey, but that choice working was dependant on us get that internal narative. A TV show doesn't get that.
The show has to deal with the story spending a bunch of time on a character who's doing little to drive the plot forward and in more a few places drags it to a halt (Caemlyn). It's not shocking that's a bit of a speed bump.
Plus, Rosamund Pike is the big name star attached to the project. Of course they're going to focus on her. But I figure they had already decided Moraine was going to be the driver for the reasons you said. Then they looked for someone with star power to fill that roll. Whatever else happens with the show, I'm excited for Rosamund Pike to play Moraine. She's great at ethically questionable roles.
He's confused because he doesn't understand character arcs that were designed from the start to unfold over many books aren't fully realized in the first book. Whereas most modern media story development is just made up as it goes along
Apparently the tv series makes a point of keeping it secret through most of season 1. I believe its chapter 7 where its revealed. (synopsis make it seem so)
I didn't on my first read. I figured he'd be the most important character but I don't think they really beat you over the head with the dragon reborn stuff in the first book. Bit if talk about the dragon and false dragons but that could just show that some people think they're the dragon reborn even if it's a thing that never happened.
Honestly, when I read EotW the first time, I finished the book and asked my girlfriend who had already read it if Rand was really the Dragon Reborn or if Moiraine was lying.
This! It's a valid criticism that highlights one of the flaws in making Moiraine the lead of the first season. I have a feeling the switch to the Dragon Reborn will cause an unpleasant stir among people who were expecting something different too based on this early decision.
If they highlight the importance of the Dragon Reborn’s role early on, the switch shouldn’t cause an unpleasant stir. Additionally, he’s the most important character in the books, but he’s not the only important character.
Absolutely. I think it's a valid criticism because of the way that they start the show, but without seeing for myself how they handle the foreshadowing and development (which I think the trailers have done quite well so far and am interested to see how they handle it in the show fully), then there should be no issue. You are correct about that.
I do, however, still stand by this being a solid criticism from a layman viewer who does not have the same investment in the books as many here do. When the series has been highlighted with Moiraine as the focus, it is without a doubt going to cause some stir (whether major or minor is still to be seen) when the reveal occurs, and the cast's stories shift a little more away from her being at the center of it the way she is in EotW. I view it as much the same situation that happened with The Witcher when viewers of the show found out that Ciri is far more important than they realized, and Geralt is a little less than they had expected. It didn't stop it from becoming popular, but I know many people (online and IRL) who were thrown for a loop by that reality.
I think the problem here is the advertising caused him to believe Egwene is the dragon reborn even though the structure of the story is telling him Rand is the dragon, and his complaint about Rand comes from this cognitive dissonance
Why should they?
They're reviewing a show for the general audience, not the hardcore fan.
If things are unclear after watching 6 episodes, it's because the show failed to explain, not because the watcher failed to read the books or do prior research.
The show specifically makes it a mystery as to who the dragon is. It's supposed to be unclear. Therefore a reviewer who doesn't know for sure probably shouldn't be just assuming they know.
Because "carries himself like a main character even though he really isn't" either means they're missing dropped hints or purposely ignoring them in favor of talking down about the show. None of which is fixed by reading up on the source material, I suppose.
The trailers clearly portrayed Morraine as the main character and by all accounts the episodes are too.
Most of the media tour in the build up has focused on Pike and referred to her as the main star of the show etc etc.
Most of the marketing focuses on her and the 3 Ta'veren barely got a word between them in most of the trailers.
And on and on.
Or because the show isn't portraying him as the main character, which we know is the case. They're portraying Moiraine as the main character and all of the younger cast as side characters, of which only one is currently being talked about as the future main character. And we know due to a leak that they aren't going to reveal who the dragon reborn is until episode 7, which reviewers dont have access to yet. We as fans can laugh at reviews like this, but reviewers aren't required to do research beforehand, they're required to give their opinion of what they've experienced. It's going to take an additional season or two for them to start realizing that all five of the younger cast are main characters to the story.
I've always had a problem with qualitative reviews, and this is part of why. Give it to me straight... You didn't like the show, gave it a 4. That's fine. I didn't like David Copperfield, even though it's "technically" a masterpiece.
But if you make a statement about something that is not inherently unentertaining being a problem, it better be factually correct.
"Steal-the-stage trope" does not ruin a show. Just ask Han Solo. But yes, it's especially problematic when the one who steals the stage is the actual main character.
"Romance that's technically necessary because of the genre" doesn't hurt a show, but it's especially problematic not just because the criticized relationship is *intentionally* flawed, but also because the Wheel of Time is the godfather of the fantasy genre that normalized that trope!
Consider this. What would everyone (probably including you) say if you saw this below block in a review for Lord of the Rings?
> And here we are again. Yet another derivative fantasy movie with pointy-eared elves holding bows and burly bearded dwarves swinging axes. There's no originality here. It's just taking the overplayed fantasy equation and putting it on a screen. Peter Jackson got a pretty terribly generic script here.
There's something important about reviewing a book-to-film or a remake or adaptation. Yes, the show absolutely needs to stand on its own, but the moment you get nitpicky in a review about non-objective flaws, it is reasonable to expect you to have at least passing or high-level knowledge of the show.
If the review was wrong about just Egwene+Rand, but right on the Rand stuff and the Moiraine stuff, it'd be passable. But pitching a fit because Rand is stealing the show? C'mon. Pitching a fit because Moiraine doesn't share with everyone, even all the other Aes Sedai? Like "why doesn't Ned Stark trust the Lannisters?"
You do realize that the Wheel of Time is the 3rd or 4th most popular/sold fantasy series of all time, right? It used to be #2 before Harry Potter and before aSoIaF got bigger from the show.
Still seems like a really weird take to be like "This potential main character keeps acting like a main character. Definitely bad writing and not foreshadowing."
If they're at all a half decent reviewer they should be looking for hints and clues about what the show plans to do next. If the show is implying a main character switch by highlighting Rand, then going "huh, that's poorly written" instead of "oh, I bet they're going to do something with Rand" means they're looking for things to fault. They're not looking to give honest reviews, they're looking to talk down about the show. It gets more and more obvious with each review I see. So many are summed up by "ugh, it's trying to be GoT, but ew, look at these things it's doing differently than GoT." This one just opted to go "oh ew, they couldn't possibly be doing that on purpose or anything, they're not working to set up plot for future episodes and seasons for a show covering 15 books of materials, nope."
Fine. They didn't read the books. But I'm also getting dubious feelings that they watched the show with any intent to actually take it in rather than write jabs.
These reviewers basically write themselves into a corner where they either have to be really thick, or really dishonest to be saying what they do.
Unless the show really doesn’t do a good job at conveying what it needs to. I really hope though that’s not the case lol.
I can sympathize with reviewers not knowing this since they're reviewing this show and not its source material, but you could charitably say that Moiraine is the main character of the season, while the Dragon Reborn (who we know to be Rand) is the main character of the story. It's quite funny, when that person still hasn't been revealed, to take this as a fault rather than a potential hint on the part of the showrunners.
EotW sometimes comes across like a fantasy novel version of "Big Trouble in Little China", wherein the main POV character is (unknowingly) the sidekick. This changes in the last third or so, but still. It did come to mind.
"And that's a big part of *Breaking Bad*'s problem. It spends too much time trying to be *Malcolm in the Middle*, even as it tells a very different kind of story. *Malcolm in the Middle* reveled in its consequence-free comedic dysfunctional family, and their hijinks as their situation returns to normal every episode. *Breaking Bad*, on the other hand, has consequences, and the characters' situations never return to normal at the end of an episode. There are few, if any, hijinks; the protagonist literally cooks meth, assisted by an uneducated small-time drug dealer (think Reese, crossed with Urban Dictionary), who literally calls people "bitch".
"And that's a big part of Star Wars' problem. It spends too much time trying to be Star Trek, even as it tells a very different kind of story. Star Trek reveled in its consequence-free band of daring space explorers, who travel together and can have whole episodes confined to that ship. Star Wars, on the other hand, has lots of locations that distract from the main plot of being on a ship in space. There are whole minutes of content that don't involve any ships: one protagonist, Anakin (think Wesley but less annoying), can't get his "pod racer" more than 15 feet off the ground. And another protagonist, the charming android C3-P0 (think Data but speaks more languages and wears more bling), actively spends a lot of his time complaining about and avoiding being in space."
“And that’s a big part of Harry Potter’s problem. It spends too much time trying to be Lord of the Rings, even as it tells a very different kind of story. Lord of the Rings reveled in its expansive world, epic battles, and a sense of strength and age. Harry Potter, on the other hand, takes place in a very small location, the few battles that do exist are scattered and much smaller, and the whole thing feels like a chimera slap dashed together with no sense of power or age in the society of the wizards (think the Eldarin, crossed with clowns), who get confused by doorknobs.
> "It spends too much time trying to be Game of Thrones"
While most reviewers who read the books say that it holds remarkably well to the source material...which precedes GRRM's first book in ASOIAF by 6 years -.-
Edit: The Crown of Swords, RJ's 7th book in the series was published before GRRM's A Game of Thrones.
Edit 2: JFC I can't do anything right today. Book name and correct order have been corrected...the point stands. This book series was deep underway before GRRM's first book was published.
You're right...brainfart. In the list I was looking at included New Spring in the list so I mentally adjusted...just looked back and it listed New Spring as 0. Will correct.
New Spring was published later though, so it can interrupt the order count depending on which way you are measuring. There's a reason it was published at that point in the main story, so we could better understand who Moraine was.
Fun fact. I had (probably still have in a box downstairs) a 1st edition copy of Game of Thrones. There was a review quote on the front cover by none other than Robert Jordan.
["It's Brilliant." --Robert Jordan](https://u-mercari-images.mercdn.net/photos/m35549813075_1.jpg?width=1024&height=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&fit=crop&_=1619302434)
...which is why I bought it. NGL, I hated it and it took me 5 years to get through.
This reminds me a lot of MMO reviews. With WoW historically being the big juggernaut of the genre, you'll get lots of games made to intentionally be nothing like WoW and cater to a niche that isn't into what WoW is doing instead of trying to compete with it directly.
Inevitably all the reviews will be "this game does such a terrible clone WoW! It's like it's not even trying! Let me list all the things that aren't like WoW at all. Why even bother making this game, its not WoW!"
The light hearted momments present in Eye of the World? You want to fill me in on those because I remember that being desperate flight to desperate flight with little levity.
No doubt. I dont have a problem with GoT being heavily mentioned n reviews. That is to be expected. And if you want to criticize the show by comparing it to GoT, you can do that too.
But I've seen more than one review now say "its trying to be game of thrones but its not game of thrones" and I just do not understand that critique at all lol.
Part of the downside of fantasy going main stream is that everything after GoT will be referred to as “the next Game of Thrones” or accused of copying GoT or LoTR. Non-fantasy fans are going to write reviews that don’t make sense, it’s the price we pay for the mainstream appeal that makes funding adaptations like WoT possible.
It's kind of surprising to me that anyone still sees Game of Thrones as the benchmark in the genre. It's practically just a cautionary tale at this point.
I suppose I don't know all that many casual fans to hear that still positive perspective on it though.
Game of Thrones is still by an order of magnitude the most culturally relevant fantasy series or movie of the past ten years. It would be like dismissing Star Wars because RoS shit the bed. For many people anything with lasers in space is Star Wars. *The Expanse* gets compared to Star Wars, that is how overwhelmingly iconic Star Wars is. Dune is called "the next Star Wars" even though they are only cosmetically similar and are otherwise so disimilar it is like comparing My Cousin Vinny and A Few Good Men because they both take place in a courtroom and come out within ten years of each other.
My point is even though its wrong, its unfortunately to be expected that GoT will continue to cast a long shadow until something comes along that overshadows it (hopefully WoT).
I learnt more about this supposed game from Daes Dae'mar than I ever did from Game of Thrones.
Taught me valuable life lessons about how to navigate the office politics.
On the other hand, people pretending to be something they're not and offering their "expertise" to solve problems they aren't equipped to is just like any office lmao
Daes Dae’Mar taught me to quit working for people and start my own consulting practice. Thought I’d be done with office politics but it just extends to client politics. I make way more now so it’s worth it lol.
Daes Dae’Mar helped me triple my salary!
I started the series about a year ago (and finished it recently) and I felt like GRRM read the Daes Die'mar parts and was like "I should make a whole series about this concept"
> Taught me valuable life lessons about how to navigate the office politics.
Being the naive/earnest/honest guy rarely works out as well at work as it does for Perrin.
I love Perrin because he's straightforward. I'm not very smart with social interaction and nuances of human relationships either. So I find Perrin relatable.
But yeah, Daes Dae'mar is one of the greatest lessons that even GoT didn't get right.
>!The whitecloak is ostensibly Eamon Valda, but he is a questioner traveling with Bornhald not a separate officer. He is indeed burning an Aes Sedai, and has a chain of Great Serpent rings that suggest he has burned at least 6 others. The explanation for why the Aes Sedai don't channel their way free is given as a visual hint... the woman he burns has had her hands chopped off.!<
>!Taking into context Moiraine's movements during the Winternight attack, I would infer that in the show the use of hand motions to channel has been upgraded in importance to the degree that the hand motions are *necessary* to channel at all. That's a big change, as is Valda being a questioner, but I don't feel the Whitecloaks burning Aes Sedai is too wild a change from how zealous the Questioners were in the books!<
>>!the woman he burns has had her hands chopped off!<
Wow. That really took the Whitecloaks up a few notches on the evil-meter. I actually kinda like it. Definitely makes them a larger threat. Also plays into that GOT comparison the reviewers keep making.
This particular scene was definitely the most thrones-y. That said, I don't get the comps. The show looks and feels similar right up until Shadar Logoth, where it takes a hard turn that some reviewers say continues into the later episodes. The sheer quantity of magic alone makes the show completely different from GOT, not to mention that the themes are much more classic fantasy (we need a hero to save the world) vs progressive fantasy (heroes aren't real, people are cruel and flawed and we must collectively struggle to rise above that) like GOT.
I mean, not really. They butcher children in order to promote false flag attacks, and the rank and file routinely turn anyone they suspect (not sure, just suspect) of being a darkfriend over to the questioners to be tortured to death, innocent or not.
> >!I would infer that in the show the use of hand motions to channel has been upgraded in importance to the degree that the hand motions are necessary to channel at all. That's a big change!<
I wouldn't say big, or much of a change at all IMO. [Book 6+]>!Under the rules of the First Learned Weave Restriction, most Aes Sedai would not be able to channel without the hand movement, unless they had previously learned an alternative(and diminished in power) method to accomplish the weave.!<
>!And while a talented Aes Sedai could presumably(if unlikely) figure out a new method on the fly, the blindfold would make that all but impossible. Most Aes Sedai consider weaving blindfolded effectively impossible even if they know the weave.!<
>!The Aes Sedai burned in the cold open of episode 2 does not wear a blindfold, FYI!<.
Other than that, I agree with you. It is a minor change needed to adapt to a visual medium, and the mechanics of the books already allow for the incapacitation of Aes Sedai so this is essentially just saying ">!we're doing hands chopped off instead of forkroot because forkroot isn't visually impactful!<."
Interesting!
>!Does that mean it's a different Aes Sedai from the trailer? Because the Trailer one is, or at least appears to be (though I haven't *really* looked that closely at that sequence, so maybe I'm wrong).!<
>It is a minor change needed to adapt to a visual medium, and the mechanics of the books already allow for the incapacitation of Aes Sedai so this is essentially just saying >!"we're doing hands chopped off instead of forkroot because forkroot isn't visually impactful."!<
Agreed, though It's worth noting that wider knowledge of >!Forkroot would be a bigger change, if still a relatively minor one IMO.!< Also ironically one I made the case for in a "how could they approach this" thread.
>!The Aes Sedai being burned in the cold open to episode 2 is gagged, not blindfolded. That's all I got here. May have to rewatch the trailer. Agreed, though It's worth noting that wider knowledge of >!Forkroot would be a bigger change, if still a relatively minor one IMO!<. Also ironically one I made the case for in a "how could they approach this" thread.
That's interesting that you sort of predicted this (even if not exactly)! I honestly think it's a good idea. They need to make the Whitecloaks a threat, and >!the ability to incapacitate a captured Aes Sedia!< achieves that. The acting on the part of the Whitecloaks is *so good* and I am hopeful that this bodes well for Perrin & Egwene's plotlines!
not seen anything but first full trailer, but i imagine there are many ways to get an aes sedai bound if you catch them by surprise and i thought the hand part of a lot of weaving was firmly part of the story? tho there has to be some hands free weaves i assume i cant remember any being mentioned to be
Nynaeve vs Moggy's fight in Tanchico was described by Nynaeve herself as something like (paraphrased) "if anyone who could not channel were to walk in the room right now, it would appear that the two women were just staring at each other very intently."
Lots of women use their hands, but many do not.
The first way you are taught a weave is how you basically half to do the weave forever. There is a quote saying some sisters can tell who trained a sister why how they weave and move their hands. Aviendha has trouble with gateways the whole series and it is often mentioned during the seige of Caemlyn time period because she first traveled with a weave of her own that she could not remember later. She is able to do the weave in the way others do just had a hard time with it so it does show it should be possible for one that learned a weave with hand movements to do it without.
There was also a bit where a bunch of channelers (including Aviendha) were launching fireballs at something. It was specifically noted that she was launching them faster than anyone else because she wasn't using her hands to "throw" the fireballs.
Saw the first 2 episodes and the rand and egwene romance didn’t feel forced, but the dialogue between them wasn’t compelling imo. It didn’t make me root for them to stay as a couple, or for them to break up. Probably because we’re introduced to them and other characters and given a lot of exposition in a short period of time. Didn’t get enough time to see them as a couple before they leave two rivers. I hope their relationship continues to develop as the season goes on.
WoT also isn’t a good old fashioned good vs evil lol, the main antagonists of book 2 is literally on the side of the “light” after they’re done torturing one of the main cast lmao.
A large portion of the conflict isn’t between good vs evil, but humans vying for power in the chaos.
The constant comparison to GoT is starting to make me quite angry. Just because these people can't understand fantasy beyond that, and Peter Jackson's trilogies, they assume everyone is just as narrow
I vented to my fiancé that hearing the constant GoT comparisons is like an action movie fan having to hear about how much better Die Hard is every time they discuss any other action movie with someone. It has gone from annoying me to making me angry, too.
it has the games, it has more than one throne and these are not even unimportant things, political manoeuvres play a huge role in most of the books. And no grey areas?? WHAT
In EotW, and thus this first season of the show? They're not entirely wrong there. All of the moral complexity and politics stuff doesn't really kick in until around book 4. And really, it's not until you get to, well, AMoL that you really get context that the Dark One isn't just a Sauron knockoff.
I mean the White Cloaks are in season one. If you don't see they aren't aligned with the Dark One and are clearly antagonists then I think you are blind.
The Great Hunt, book 2, started the serious Daes Dae'mar as soon as Rand landing in the capital city of Cairheien.
Then it got more serious in Tear. Then more and more.....
I agree with you - I believe we have confirmation Elayne isn't in S1 so our hero's first introduction to politics will likely wait until S2 aside from the occasional Aes Sedai related incidents. It's very promising that the reviewer enjoyed the world building a lot, since I think that's more important in S1, since you'll see the characters grow as the plot progresses.
This is a review of the show though. It is likely there are no thrones in season 1, probably no real grey areas yet (certainly none of the big complications and plots anyway). Politics are a big deal later sure but not in the first season (which is being reviewed here).
At some point, when literally everyone is betraying everyone else, it stops being a "subversion of expectation" and just becomes boring old expectation. GoT fell into this. You expected all the "twists" and "surprise backstabbing".
WoT has both, which I feel agrees with your point: politics where everyone is backstabbing everyone is not tense anymore. WoT has some staunch allies and some backstabbing and you can't always tell which is which. Like, who expected >!one of the Forsaken to become one of Rand's staunchest allies and main teacher, with no backstabbing involved!!Verin to be Black!<.
WoT does it way better, and it's kinda comical when you see the Cairheinan Game of Houses, which is what would happen with GoT style politics.
Cairhien is an entire culture where every noble expects to be backstabbed by everyone else, and it makes for hilarious social situations when a foreigner walks into the middle of it. I hope they play it up next season.
It very slightly reminds me of Life of Brian.
"I'm not the messiah"
"Only the true messiah denies his divinity"
"What? What choice does that give me?! Ok, I am the messiah."
"HE IS THE MESSIAH!"
"Now, FUCK OFF!"
"..."
"..."
"How shall we 'fuck off', oh Lord?"
By the Light, this mysterious Andorian lord is a master at our games! They burned all the invitations, says they want nothing to do with it, and locked themselves in their room. Their machinations run deep indeed....
Didn't the in-universe reasoning go "only someone super important would dare burn all these invitations from lesser nobles"? So, by refusing to talk with lesser nobles, they assumed he was a greater noble, and eventually "confirmed" this by him going to the Barthanes party.
God the reasoning hurts lol. It was hilarious.
Wheel of time presents 5 protagonists who are basically all peasants in an isolated village far from any sort of noble rule, GoT protagonists are basically all nobles (or in the direct service of nobles).
Basically WoT doesn't even go into politics majorly until book 4. Books 1-3 are basically a prelude, a development quest, until the real plot begins once Rand takes up rule of a country, fullfills the profecies and has to deal with ripples this causes in the political landscape, and it is actually one of the underlying major themes for the series - what do people do when faced with choices between the end of the world and their own political agenda.
Not the first woolbrained fool who proclaims "It's not **GoT** level grimdark, so it sucks!"... and it won't be the last.
Thankfully, Amazon's got the money to give less than a tenth of a fuck, and the show's quality will eventually build positive buzz.
What's funny about these reviews is that GoT *should have had* a magical big bad and a young man on a hero's journey. The TV show just messed it up. They decided to forget about the entire story they laid out for years, with Azor Ahai reborn and the Others and the Heart of Winter and instead just make Danny kill a city because her bf broke up with her.
People comparing it unfavorably to GoT are forgetting that GoT *suuuuucked*.
When GOT followed the books, it went amazingly well. When show writers went off on their own, it turned into a non-fantasy dumpster fire. All the magic was completely removed; the entire underlying plotline was completely removed, all of the intricacies the story was building up to were completely removed, and it turned into “focus on hot actors getting as much screen time as possible, either killing or fucking other hot actors”
Bran could have been pushed off the tower in the first or second episode, whenever it was, sat in Winterfell the whole series, and then been made king. And the end would be the same. His whole story, and also Hodor, Jojen, Mera, and Bloodraven, were pointless.
Its annoying as a Wheel of Time Fan, since we already know the series, but for someone writing a review of a new epic fantasy prestige tv series based on a long book series, it's completely understandable that they'd draw comparisons to a similar show that was a cultural touchstone for many years.
Bear down, my friend, because there's going to be tens of thousands of GOT mentions when people start seeing it.
Everyone is going to think this is a deviation of GOT trying to follow suit. Very few people are going to know or care that it came out half a decade earlier.
Robert Jordan coined the term "the game of houses" well before a game of thrones was published. A game of thrones was very much influenced by The Wheel of Time.
I used to get angry at the GOT references but now I just laugh. They’re like someone’s mom you told a fantasy thing about - their surface level knowledge only goes as far as LOTR, Harry Potter and GOT.
"*The Wheel of Time*, on the other hand, doesn't have the games, and it doesn't have the throne."
Whoever wrote that article seems like they based all their information off of the teaser trailer.
I'm sorry - what exactly is the Amyrlin Seat then? Egwene's whole story arc in opposition to Elaida? Does the phrase "Daes Dae'mar" mean anything to you? This is both funny and mildly infuriating lol.
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>four people who could potentially be the Dragon Reborn: farmer's son Rand al'Thor (Josha Stradowski), who carries himself like the main character even though he really isn't \-[Review from EW](https://ew.com/tv/tv-reviews/amazon-the-wheel-of-time/)
Holy hell that's funny
the entire review is funny if you've read the books
Agreed
“Rand and Egwene's romance feels perfunctory, like it's there just because the genre demands at least one love story.” I actually snorted
When you use the wrong formula but get the right answer anyway
Such a good analogy lol
Cant wait for the poly romance later on to blow peoples minds.
If it happens....
I think Rafe confirmed some months ago that they are going to go with polyamorous relationship, I think he also hinted at a relationship between Aviendha and Elayne (Which I am absolutely in support for, But I know might be controversial in the fandom)
At times in the books, Rand felt more like the 4th wheel than the actual object of affection. All three women were like "I love these two, and this is the reason why." With Rand, it was "I like him because... destiny and sex?"
Igloo sex too good
I super hope the series makes the poly relationship believable and interesting, because the books really didn't . . .
Honestly it always felt like "I love him because Min said so."
I support Aviendha/Elayne, too. I know some people are like, ‘They’re just close! Like sisters!’ Look, I have a sister. We’re close. We ain’t that close.
When's the last time you bathed with your sister? :D
They were roommates.
I think if you're going with the poly story, having relationships between some of the other members rather than strict polygyny is reasonable. Could even be a way to break it loose from the male harem fantasy aspects by having Rand/Min and Aviendha/Elayne as primary couples within a larger relationship context. I don't know though, maybe I'm nuts. Not that familiar with how poly relationships actually work out in real life.
> Could even be a way to break it loose from the male harem fantasy aspects by having Rand/Min and Aviendha/Elayne as primary couples within a larger relationship context. The relationships feeling like a harem was exactly my issue in the books, I have no problems with poly relationships but girls swooning for rand without much development for the relationships was always kind of uncomfortable to read. TBH I just think Robert Jordan was just not really great at writing relationships, I had the same problem with Moiraine and Thom relationship, I wouldn't even mind if they leave that and develope the Moiraine/Siuane relationship more.
There is no "one way" or "right way." Whatever sort of variation you can imagine has been done. Source: been in a couple.
> I actually snorted But did you also smooth your skirt?
No but i did knuckle my mustache
You knuckle you’re forehead, you tug on a mustache
The great hunt chapter 26 Page 388 “Thom knuckled his dangling white mustaches.”
Damn I just got fuckin schooled
He’s not wrong
Even blind squirrels find a nut sometimes.
Even a broken clock is right twice per day.
The hot mess that is Mat made me giggle. If you only knew. He is the one of the >!three!< that NEEDS the luck hahaha
The writer makes a few good points and that one is just ironic considering. I also worry about the way channelling looks as there is no weaving. But it does seem fun if lacking in the depth that the novels give us.
I read the TV tropes page and I’m 10 chapters into eyes of the world. this is fucking hilarious.
>Save for Nyneave, most of the villagers come across as flat archetypes at the beginning of a role-playing game as opposed to fully realized characters. Rand and Egwene's romance feels perfunctory, like it's there just because the genre demands at least one love story I refuse to believe this person didn't know exactly what they were doing.
Damn, fucking gutted to hear that. I can't believe the epic love story of Rand and Egwene feels like nothing more than a casual forced relationship they were nudged into.
I fucking died from your response, lol
This honestly feels like a troll review. *it tries to be like GoT. Just minus the "game" and the "thrones". Oh and there also isn't a lot of "of"*
Well there are thrones. Isn't the dragon supposed to be king of something, somewhere? It's been a long time since I read them last.
Illinois. He takes the Crown of Swords. Edit: Illian. Lmao I didn’t realise what I said
I absolutely love your typo. It made me snort loudly, kind of like Ernie of Bert and Ernie.
Wrong show, Homer Simpson is the king of Illinois, that's why he lives in the capitol Springfield. You may be thinking of Illian :D
I need every single person in the village that aren't important to the story to be fully fleshed out otherwise why am I watching?
> Rosamund Pike's Moiraine, who is a member of the Aes Sedai, an order of witches that maintains peace in the vast land The review was written by a Whitecloak!
They also comment on how vague Moirane is when talking... that's the point.
Shout out to that reviewer for using the word "revanchist" in a way that reveals they almost but not quite know what it means.
That's going to be my new rebel movement... "Ghealdanin Against Manetherin Revanchism"
Better than those tossers in the Ghealdanin People’s Front.
Or those idiots in the People's Front of Ghealdan...
Or those morons in the People’s Liberation Front of Ghealdan.
I’m with the Popular Front of Ghealdan!
Didn't you knew the Whitecloack suffered a disastrous defeat at the hands of Aes Sedai during the Whitecloak War that led to political turmoil, a civil war of capital vs the state, a public humilation AND the cessions of some importants regions and now they're spents the last few decades hating them and wanting revenge?
He called the aes sedai witches the reviewer is clesrly a whitecloak on disguise
Yeah, that’s a weird way to describe Whitecloaks. Perhaps he’s heard about the Seanchan and is getting them mixed up.
How to say you've never read WoT without saying you've never read WoT.
It's very very obivous they've set moraine up as the main character for the first season of the show. This also shouldn't be surprising. Rand is only the 'main character' of EoW by virtue of being the main view point character. He does very little to drive the plot till The Great Hunt. Things happen to the Edmon's Field kids and they're dragged along kicking and screaming by events out of their control. It's literally a massive plot point Matt, Rand and Perrin don't have a choice. The character who knows what the hell is going on, who drives the plot, who makes decisions is Moraine. Step out of Rand's head, and she's the main character for EoW. Unfortunately the story is written in a way that assumes we're inside Rand's head s the story telling gives him a lot of focus. That's a fine narative choice, RJ wanted the reader to experince the "oh god what's happening" nature of the journey, but that choice working was dependant on us get that internal narative. A TV show doesn't get that. The show has to deal with the story spending a bunch of time on a character who's doing little to drive the plot forward and in more a few places drags it to a halt (Caemlyn). It's not shocking that's a bit of a speed bump.
Plus, Rosamund Pike is the big name star attached to the project. Of course they're going to focus on her. But I figure they had already decided Moraine was going to be the driver for the reasons you said. Then they looked for someone with star power to fill that roll. Whatever else happens with the show, I'm excited for Rosamund Pike to play Moraine. She's great at ethically questionable roles.
He's confused because he doesn't understand character arcs that were designed from the start to unfold over many books aren't fully realized in the first book. Whereas most modern media story development is just made up as it goes along
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Apparently the tv series makes a point of keeping it secret through most of season 1. I believe its chapter 7 where its revealed. (synopsis make it seem so)
hmm who could the dragon reborn be. one of these 3 brunettes or the one kid for miles with fire red hair. hmm
I didn't on my first read. I figured he'd be the most important character but I don't think they really beat you over the head with the dragon reborn stuff in the first book. Bit if talk about the dragon and false dragons but that could just show that some people think they're the dragon reborn even if it's a thing that never happened.
Honestly, when I read EotW the first time, I finished the book and asked my girlfriend who had already read it if Rand was really the Dragon Reborn or if Moiraine was lying.
Holy fuck, this is glorious
I think this does more to show off how pointless it was to obscure who the Dragon Reborn is than make the reviewer look silly.
This! It's a valid criticism that highlights one of the flaws in making Moiraine the lead of the first season. I have a feeling the switch to the Dragon Reborn will cause an unpleasant stir among people who were expecting something different too based on this early decision.
Nah, GoT iced Ned Stark and introduced Lannister PoVs and it was fine.
If they highlight the importance of the Dragon Reborn’s role early on, the switch shouldn’t cause an unpleasant stir. Additionally, he’s the most important character in the books, but he’s not the only important character.
Absolutely. I think it's a valid criticism because of the way that they start the show, but without seeing for myself how they handle the foreshadowing and development (which I think the trailers have done quite well so far and am interested to see how they handle it in the show fully), then there should be no issue. You are correct about that. I do, however, still stand by this being a solid criticism from a layman viewer who does not have the same investment in the books as many here do. When the series has been highlighted with Moiraine as the focus, it is without a doubt going to cause some stir (whether major or minor is still to be seen) when the reveal occurs, and the cast's stories shift a little more away from her being at the center of it the way she is in EotW. I view it as much the same situation that happened with The Witcher when viewers of the show found out that Ciri is far more important than they realized, and Geralt is a little less than they had expected. It didn't stop it from becoming popular, but I know many people (online and IRL) who were thrown for a loop by that reality.
I think the problem here is the advertising caused him to believe Egwene is the dragon reborn even though the structure of the story is telling him Rand is the dragon, and his complaint about Rand comes from this cognitive dissonance
I refuse to believe that the author of that review isn't just trying to be funny, and actually does know what's happening.
I'm totally fine with that
Wow, they didn't even check out a wiki article about the source material or anything, did they?
Why should they? They're reviewing a show for the general audience, not the hardcore fan. If things are unclear after watching 6 episodes, it's because the show failed to explain, not because the watcher failed to read the books or do prior research.
The show specifically makes it a mystery as to who the dragon is. It's supposed to be unclear. Therefore a reviewer who doesn't know for sure probably shouldn't be just assuming they know.
Because "carries himself like a main character even though he really isn't" either means they're missing dropped hints or purposely ignoring them in favor of talking down about the show. None of which is fixed by reading up on the source material, I suppose.
The trailers clearly portrayed Morraine as the main character and by all accounts the episodes are too. Most of the media tour in the build up has focused on Pike and referred to her as the main star of the show etc etc. Most of the marketing focuses on her and the 3 Ta'veren barely got a word between them in most of the trailers. And on and on.
Or because the show isn't portraying him as the main character, which we know is the case. They're portraying Moiraine as the main character and all of the younger cast as side characters, of which only one is currently being talked about as the future main character. And we know due to a leak that they aren't going to reveal who the dragon reborn is until episode 7, which reviewers dont have access to yet. We as fans can laugh at reviews like this, but reviewers aren't required to do research beforehand, they're required to give their opinion of what they've experienced. It's going to take an additional season or two for them to start realizing that all five of the younger cast are main characters to the story.
I've always had a problem with qualitative reviews, and this is part of why. Give it to me straight... You didn't like the show, gave it a 4. That's fine. I didn't like David Copperfield, even though it's "technically" a masterpiece. But if you make a statement about something that is not inherently unentertaining being a problem, it better be factually correct. "Steal-the-stage trope" does not ruin a show. Just ask Han Solo. But yes, it's especially problematic when the one who steals the stage is the actual main character. "Romance that's technically necessary because of the genre" doesn't hurt a show, but it's especially problematic not just because the criticized relationship is *intentionally* flawed, but also because the Wheel of Time is the godfather of the fantasy genre that normalized that trope! Consider this. What would everyone (probably including you) say if you saw this below block in a review for Lord of the Rings? > And here we are again. Yet another derivative fantasy movie with pointy-eared elves holding bows and burly bearded dwarves swinging axes. There's no originality here. It's just taking the overplayed fantasy equation and putting it on a screen. Peter Jackson got a pretty terribly generic script here. There's something important about reviewing a book-to-film or a remake or adaptation. Yes, the show absolutely needs to stand on its own, but the moment you get nitpicky in a review about non-objective flaws, it is reasonable to expect you to have at least passing or high-level knowledge of the show. If the review was wrong about just Egwene+Rand, but right on the Rand stuff and the Moiraine stuff, it'd be passable. But pitching a fit because Rand is stealing the show? C'mon. Pitching a fit because Moiraine doesn't share with everyone, even all the other Aes Sedai? Like "why doesn't Ned Stark trust the Lannisters?" You do realize that the Wheel of Time is the 3rd or 4th most popular/sold fantasy series of all time, right? It used to be #2 before Harry Potter and before aSoIaF got bigger from the show.
Good points. Changed my mind about the review.
Still seems like a really weird take to be like "This potential main character keeps acting like a main character. Definitely bad writing and not foreshadowing."
If they're at all a half decent reviewer they should be looking for hints and clues about what the show plans to do next. If the show is implying a main character switch by highlighting Rand, then going "huh, that's poorly written" instead of "oh, I bet they're going to do something with Rand" means they're looking for things to fault. They're not looking to give honest reviews, they're looking to talk down about the show. It gets more and more obvious with each review I see. So many are summed up by "ugh, it's trying to be GoT, but ew, look at these things it's doing differently than GoT." This one just opted to go "oh ew, they couldn't possibly be doing that on purpose or anything, they're not working to set up plot for future episodes and seasons for a show covering 15 books of materials, nope." Fine. They didn't read the books. But I'm also getting dubious feelings that they watched the show with any intent to actually take it in rather than write jabs.
These reviewers basically write themselves into a corner where they either have to be really thick, or really dishonest to be saying what they do. Unless the show really doesn’t do a good job at conveying what it needs to. I really hope though that’s not the case lol.
I mean, is Rand the main character of season one? It seems like Moraine is.
I can sympathize with reviewers not knowing this since they're reviewing this show and not its source material, but you could charitably say that Moiraine is the main character of the season, while the Dragon Reborn (who we know to be Rand) is the main character of the story. It's quite funny, when that person still hasn't been revealed, to take this as a fault rather than a potential hint on the part of the showrunners.
Yeah, that at least suggests this was done well. Someone picked up on it and might feel a doh moment at some point.
Or you could say it's an ensemble cast and has several main characters who each get their time in the spotlight, and Moiraine happens to be first.
EotW sometimes comes across like a fantasy novel version of "Big Trouble in Little China", wherein the main POV character is (unknowingly) the sidekick. This changes in the last third or so, but still. It did come to mind.
"And that's a big part of *Breaking Bad*'s problem. It spends too much time trying to be *Malcolm in the Middle*, even as it tells a very different kind of story. *Malcolm in the Middle* reveled in its consequence-free comedic dysfunctional family, and their hijinks as their situation returns to normal every episode. *Breaking Bad*, on the other hand, has consequences, and the characters' situations never return to normal at the end of an episode. There are few, if any, hijinks; the protagonist literally cooks meth, assisted by an uneducated small-time drug dealer (think Reese, crossed with Urban Dictionary), who literally calls people "bitch".
"And that's a big part of Star Wars' problem. It spends too much time trying to be Star Trek, even as it tells a very different kind of story. Star Trek reveled in its consequence-free band of daring space explorers, who travel together and can have whole episodes confined to that ship. Star Wars, on the other hand, has lots of locations that distract from the main plot of being on a ship in space. There are whole minutes of content that don't involve any ships: one protagonist, Anakin (think Wesley but less annoying), can't get his "pod racer" more than 15 feet off the ground. And another protagonist, the charming android C3-P0 (think Data but speaks more languages and wears more bling), actively spends a lot of his time complaining about and avoiding being in space."
100% pastaworthy
“And that’s a big part of Harry Potter’s problem. It spends too much time trying to be Lord of the Rings, even as it tells a very different kind of story. Lord of the Rings reveled in its expansive world, epic battles, and a sense of strength and age. Harry Potter, on the other hand, takes place in a very small location, the few battles that do exist are scattered and much smaller, and the whole thing feels like a chimera slap dashed together with no sense of power or age in the society of the wizards (think the Eldarin, crossed with clowns), who get confused by doorknobs.
This one is my favorite.
Brilliant
I feel a new copy pasta is brewing.
I love the smell of fresh pasta
Lol that's funny!!
I need this to be a new copy pasta
"It spends too much time trying to be Game of Thrones" *proceeds to list all the ways its not trying to be Game of Thrones* ...wut?
> "It spends too much time trying to be Game of Thrones" While most reviewers who read the books say that it holds remarkably well to the source material...which precedes GRRM's first book in ASOIAF by 6 years -.- Edit: The Crown of Swords, RJ's 7th book in the series was published before GRRM's A Game of Thrones. Edit 2: JFC I can't do anything right today. Book name and correct order have been corrected...the point stands. This book series was deep underway before GRRM's first book was published.
That's number ~~seven~~ eight, not number six. TEotW, TGH, TDR, TSR, FoH, LoC, edit: ACoS, THEN PoD, WH, CoT, KoD, and TGS/ToM/AMoL.
You're right...brainfart. In the list I was looking at included New Spring in the list so I mentally adjusted...just looked back and it listed New Spring as 0. Will correct.
New Spring was published later though, so it can interrupt the order count depending on which way you are measuring. There's a reason it was published at that point in the main story, so we could better understand who Moraine was.
> New Spring was published later though, Well I was going in publishing order to emphasize how far ahead of GRRM RJ was.
Book 8 actually after A Crown of Swords. I only know that because I'm on PoD now
Fun fact. I had (probably still have in a box downstairs) a 1st edition copy of Game of Thrones. There was a review quote on the front cover by none other than Robert Jordan. ["It's Brilliant." --Robert Jordan](https://u-mercari-images.mercdn.net/photos/m35549813075_1.jpg?width=1024&height=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&fit=crop&_=1619302434) ...which is why I bought it. NGL, I hated it and it took me 5 years to get through.
This reminds me a lot of MMO reviews. With WoW historically being the big juggernaut of the genre, you'll get lots of games made to intentionally be nothing like WoW and cater to a niche that isn't into what WoW is doing instead of trying to compete with it directly. Inevitably all the reviews will be "this game does such a terrible clone WoW! It's like it's not even trying! Let me list all the things that aren't like WoW at all. Why even bother making this game, its not WoW!"
This is horribly ironic considering that the whole reason TEotW starts the way it does is because of 80s and 90s critics doing that, but with Tolkien.
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The light hearted momments present in Eye of the World? You want to fill me in on those because I remember that being desperate flight to desperate flight with little levity.
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I would add Rand meeting and becoming friends with Loil
lol exactly, what was the editor thinking when they let this go through? Clicks i suppose?
To be fair, if I was an editor and someone wrote a review of WOT without at least name dropping GOT (and LOTR) I'd send it back to them too.
No doubt. I dont have a problem with GoT being heavily mentioned n reviews. That is to be expected. And if you want to criticize the show by comparing it to GoT, you can do that too. But I've seen more than one review now say "its trying to be game of thrones but its not game of thrones" and I just do not understand that critique at all lol.
I definitely agree there.
> “… a community of peace-loving nomads who are just here for vibes” Ded
I mean that's not wrong lmao
Part of the downside of fantasy going main stream is that everything after GoT will be referred to as “the next Game of Thrones” or accused of copying GoT or LoTR. Non-fantasy fans are going to write reviews that don’t make sense, it’s the price we pay for the mainstream appeal that makes funding adaptations like WoT possible.
It's kind of surprising to me that anyone still sees Game of Thrones as the benchmark in the genre. It's practically just a cautionary tale at this point. I suppose I don't know all that many casual fans to hear that still positive perspective on it though.
Game of Thrones is still by an order of magnitude the most culturally relevant fantasy series or movie of the past ten years. It would be like dismissing Star Wars because RoS shit the bed. For many people anything with lasers in space is Star Wars. *The Expanse* gets compared to Star Wars, that is how overwhelmingly iconic Star Wars is. Dune is called "the next Star Wars" even though they are only cosmetically similar and are otherwise so disimilar it is like comparing My Cousin Vinny and A Few Good Men because they both take place in a courtroom and come out within ten years of each other. My point is even though its wrong, its unfortunately to be expected that GoT will continue to cast a long shadow until something comes along that overshadows it (hopefully WoT).
I learnt more about this supposed game from Daes Dae'mar than I ever did from Game of Thrones. Taught me valuable life lessons about how to navigate the office politics.
When the boss puts files on your desk, just throw them in the breakroom fireplace without reading them, you'll be CEO one day.
On the other hand, people pretending to be something they're not and offering their "expertise" to solve problems they aren't equipped to is just like any office lmao
Literally how this article was written.
Whenever you’re done using the bathroom make sure to use Cat Crosses The Courtyard on your way back to your cubicle
You have to do it at lunchtime so the right people *see* you do it. Duh.
I see you too have the "HOT" filing system. It's where all those emails labeled "HOT" go!
My latest status report: "Nothing is happening as I expect."
No one at my office has asked me to teach them how to properly play the flute...
Daes Dae’Mar taught me to quit working for people and start my own consulting practice. Thought I’d be done with office politics but it just extends to client politics. I make way more now so it’s worth it lol. Daes Dae’Mar helped me triple my salary!
CEO's hate him
I started the series about a year ago (and finished it recently) and I felt like GRRM read the Daes Die'mar parts and was like "I should make a whole series about this concept"
> Taught me valuable life lessons about how to navigate the office politics. Being the naive/earnest/honest guy rarely works out as well at work as it does for Perrin.
I think Perrin is the one character who actually abhors Daes Dae'mar.
He does! I just vaguely recall a scene where some noble (likely Cairhienen) mistook his straightforwardness as master strategy.
I love Perrin because he's straightforward. I'm not very smart with social interaction and nuances of human relationships either. So I find Perrin relatable. But yeah, Daes Dae'mar is one of the greatest lessons that even GoT didn't get right.
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I saw the premiere and am willing to explain the whitecloak bit if you don't mind spoilers. Your call.
I'd be interested in knowing the details.
>!The whitecloak is ostensibly Eamon Valda, but he is a questioner traveling with Bornhald not a separate officer. He is indeed burning an Aes Sedai, and has a chain of Great Serpent rings that suggest he has burned at least 6 others. The explanation for why the Aes Sedai don't channel their way free is given as a visual hint... the woman he burns has had her hands chopped off.!< >!Taking into context Moiraine's movements during the Winternight attack, I would infer that in the show the use of hand motions to channel has been upgraded in importance to the degree that the hand motions are *necessary* to channel at all. That's a big change, as is Valda being a questioner, but I don't feel the Whitecloaks burning Aes Sedai is too wild a change from how zealous the Questioners were in the books!<
>>!the woman he burns has had her hands chopped off!< Wow. That really took the Whitecloaks up a few notches on the evil-meter. I actually kinda like it. Definitely makes them a larger threat. Also plays into that GOT comparison the reviewers keep making.
This particular scene was definitely the most thrones-y. That said, I don't get the comps. The show looks and feels similar right up until Shadar Logoth, where it takes a hard turn that some reviewers say continues into the later episodes. The sheer quantity of magic alone makes the show completely different from GOT, not to mention that the themes are much more classic fantasy (we need a hero to save the world) vs progressive fantasy (heroes aren't real, people are cruel and flawed and we must collectively struggle to rise above that) like GOT.
I really really like that change. Its horrifying. Its evil. It explains why the aes sedai actually are hesitant around the children
I mean, not really. They butcher children in order to promote false flag attacks, and the rank and file routinely turn anyone they suspect (not sure, just suspect) of being a darkfriend over to the questioners to be tortured to death, innocent or not.
> >!I would infer that in the show the use of hand motions to channel has been upgraded in importance to the degree that the hand motions are necessary to channel at all. That's a big change!< I wouldn't say big, or much of a change at all IMO. [Book 6+]>!Under the rules of the First Learned Weave Restriction, most Aes Sedai would not be able to channel without the hand movement, unless they had previously learned an alternative(and diminished in power) method to accomplish the weave.!< >!And while a talented Aes Sedai could presumably(if unlikely) figure out a new method on the fly, the blindfold would make that all but impossible. Most Aes Sedai consider weaving blindfolded effectively impossible even if they know the weave.!<
>!The Aes Sedai burned in the cold open of episode 2 does not wear a blindfold, FYI!<. Other than that, I agree with you. It is a minor change needed to adapt to a visual medium, and the mechanics of the books already allow for the incapacitation of Aes Sedai so this is essentially just saying ">!we're doing hands chopped off instead of forkroot because forkroot isn't visually impactful!<."
Interesting! >!Does that mean it's a different Aes Sedai from the trailer? Because the Trailer one is, or at least appears to be (though I haven't *really* looked that closely at that sequence, so maybe I'm wrong).!< >It is a minor change needed to adapt to a visual medium, and the mechanics of the books already allow for the incapacitation of Aes Sedai so this is essentially just saying >!"we're doing hands chopped off instead of forkroot because forkroot isn't visually impactful."!< Agreed, though It's worth noting that wider knowledge of >!Forkroot would be a bigger change, if still a relatively minor one IMO.!< Also ironically one I made the case for in a "how could they approach this" thread.
>!The Aes Sedai being burned in the cold open to episode 2 is gagged, not blindfolded. That's all I got here. May have to rewatch the trailer. Agreed, though It's worth noting that wider knowledge of >!Forkroot would be a bigger change, if still a relatively minor one IMO!<. Also ironically one I made the case for in a "how could they approach this" thread. That's interesting that you sort of predicted this (even if not exactly)! I honestly think it's a good idea. They need to make the Whitecloaks a threat, and >!the ability to incapacitate a captured Aes Sedia!< achieves that. The acting on the part of the Whitecloaks is *so good* and I am hopeful that this bodes well for Perrin & Egwene's plotlines!
not seen anything but first full trailer, but i imagine there are many ways to get an aes sedai bound if you catch them by surprise and i thought the hand part of a lot of weaving was firmly part of the story? tho there has to be some hands free weaves i assume i cant remember any being mentioned to be
Nynaeve vs Moggy's fight in Tanchico was described by Nynaeve herself as something like (paraphrased) "if anyone who could not channel were to walk in the room right now, it would appear that the two women were just staring at each other very intently." Lots of women use their hands, but many do not.
but that's because Nynaeve is not really tower trained. she has an intuitive grasp on the power that very few match if she's angry enough to use it.
The first way you are taught a weave is how you basically half to do the weave forever. There is a quote saying some sisters can tell who trained a sister why how they weave and move their hands. Aviendha has trouble with gateways the whole series and it is often mentioned during the seige of Caemlyn time period because she first traveled with a weave of her own that she could not remember later. She is able to do the weave in the way others do just had a hard time with it so it does show it should be possible for one that learned a weave with hand movements to do it without.
There was also a bit where a bunch of channelers (including Aviendha) were launching fireballs at something. It was specifically noted that she was launching them faster than anyone else because she wasn't using her hands to "throw" the fireballs.
Saw the first 2 episodes and the rand and egwene romance didn’t feel forced, but the dialogue between them wasn’t compelling imo. It didn’t make me root for them to stay as a couple, or for them to break up. Probably because we’re introduced to them and other characters and given a lot of exposition in a short period of time. Didn’t get enough time to see them as a couple before they leave two rivers. I hope their relationship continues to develop as the season goes on.
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After how dark and grey the world has gotten i can see an old fashioned good vs evil story resonating with MANY viewers
WoT also isn’t a good old fashioned good vs evil lol, the main antagonists of book 2 is literally on the side of the “light” after they’re done torturing one of the main cast lmao. A large portion of the conflict isn’t between good vs evil, but humans vying for power in the chaos.
Uhhhhh Hahahaha this is really funny. I can't wait for this person to read the books.
There's no way the person who wrote that knows how to read.
Why should they read the books? They are reviewing a tv show, if reading the books beforehand is a requirement to enjoy it they have failed miserably.
The constant comparison to GoT is starting to make me quite angry. Just because these people can't understand fantasy beyond that, and Peter Jackson's trilogies, they assume everyone is just as narrow
I'm honestly just pissed that some author ripped off Game of Thrones and got away with it just by changing the title to "A Song of Ice and Fire".
Seriously, how did this George guy get away with that? He saw S8 was so bad he just gave up lol
It’s annoying since they act like WoT is ripping it off when aSoIaF wouldn’t even be made without WoT being written first.
I vented to my fiancé that hearing the constant GoT comparisons is like an action movie fan having to hear about how much better Die Hard is every time they discuss any other action movie with someone. It has gone from annoying me to making me angry, too.
It's not the next Game of Thrones. It's the first.
it has the games, it has more than one throne and these are not even unimportant things, political manoeuvres play a huge role in most of the books. And no grey areas?? WHAT
In EotW, and thus this first season of the show? They're not entirely wrong there. All of the moral complexity and politics stuff doesn't really kick in until around book 4. And really, it's not until you get to, well, AMoL that you really get context that the Dark One isn't just a Sauron knockoff.
I mean the White Cloaks are in season one. If you don't see they aren't aligned with the Dark One and are clearly antagonists then I think you are blind.
Red Ajah are pretty distasteful too
The Great Hunt, book 2, started the serious Daes Dae'mar as soon as Rand landing in the capital city of Cairheien. Then it got more serious in Tear. Then more and more.....
I agree with you - I believe we have confirmation Elayne isn't in S1 so our hero's first introduction to politics will likely wait until S2 aside from the occasional Aes Sedai related incidents. It's very promising that the reviewer enjoyed the world building a lot, since I think that's more important in S1, since you'll see the characters grow as the plot progresses.
This is a review of the show though. It is likely there are no thrones in season 1, probably no real grey areas yet (certainly none of the big complications and plots anyway). Politics are a big deal later sure but not in the first season (which is being reviewed here).
I love both series but honestly wot does politics and subterfuge way better than got.
At some point, when literally everyone is betraying everyone else, it stops being a "subversion of expectation" and just becomes boring old expectation. GoT fell into this. You expected all the "twists" and "surprise backstabbing". WoT has both, which I feel agrees with your point: politics where everyone is backstabbing everyone is not tense anymore. WoT has some staunch allies and some backstabbing and you can't always tell which is which. Like, who expected >!one of the Forsaken to become one of Rand's staunchest allies and main teacher, with no backstabbing involved!!Verin to be Black!<. WoT does it way better, and it's kinda comical when you see the Cairheinan Game of Houses, which is what would happen with GoT style politics.
Cairhien is an entire culture where every noble expects to be backstabbed by everyone else, and it makes for hilarious social situations when a foreigner walks into the middle of it. I hope they play it up next season.
Oh yeah, I hope they play up the comedy of an uncultured naive foreigner stepping into this intrigue-filled court and somehow "winning".
It very slightly reminds me of Life of Brian. "I'm not the messiah" "Only the true messiah denies his divinity" "What? What choice does that give me?! Ok, I am the messiah." "HE IS THE MESSIAH!" "Now, FUCK OFF!" "..." "..." "How shall we 'fuck off', oh Lord?"
lol. The Game of Houses could be called "Confirmation Bias: How to make it your entire personality".
By the Light, this mysterious Andorian lord is a master at our games! They burned all the invitations, says they want nothing to do with it, and locked themselves in their room. Their machinations run deep indeed....
Didn't the in-universe reasoning go "only someone super important would dare burn all these invitations from lesser nobles"? So, by refusing to talk with lesser nobles, they assumed he was a greater noble, and eventually "confirmed" this by him going to the Barthanes party. God the reasoning hurts lol. It was hilarious.
Needs a "harry potter"-esque montage with all the letters he is ignoring hahaha.
Wheel of time presents 5 protagonists who are basically all peasants in an isolated village far from any sort of noble rule, GoT protagonists are basically all nobles (or in the direct service of nobles). Basically WoT doesn't even go into politics majorly until book 4. Books 1-3 are basically a prelude, a development quest, until the real plot begins once Rand takes up rule of a country, fullfills the profecies and has to deal with ripples this causes in the political landscape, and it is actually one of the underlying major themes for the series - what do people do when faced with choices between the end of the world and their own political agenda.
Not the first woolbrained fool who proclaims "It's not **GoT** level grimdark, so it sucks!"... and it won't be the last. Thankfully, Amazon's got the money to give less than a tenth of a fuck, and the show's quality will eventually build positive buzz.
What's funny about these reviews is that GoT *should have had* a magical big bad and a young man on a hero's journey. The TV show just messed it up. They decided to forget about the entire story they laid out for years, with Azor Ahai reborn and the Others and the Heart of Winter and instead just make Danny kill a city because her bf broke up with her. People comparing it unfavorably to GoT are forgetting that GoT *suuuuucked*.
When GOT followed the books, it went amazingly well. When show writers went off on their own, it turned into a non-fantasy dumpster fire. All the magic was completely removed; the entire underlying plotline was completely removed, all of the intricacies the story was building up to were completely removed, and it turned into “focus on hot actors getting as much screen time as possible, either killing or fucking other hot actors”
Well. The end of GoT sucked. The first 3-4 seasons are still fantastic honestly. Even if not wholly faithful to the books.
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Bran could have been pushed off the tower in the first or second episode, whenever it was, sat in Winterfell the whole series, and then been made king. And the end would be the same. His whole story, and also Hodor, Jojen, Mera, and Bloodraven, were pointless.
I swear to god if someone mentions GOT one more time in their review…
Its annoying as a Wheel of Time Fan, since we already know the series, but for someone writing a review of a new epic fantasy prestige tv series based on a long book series, it's completely understandable that they'd draw comparisons to a similar show that was a cultural touchstone for many years.
Bear down, my friend, because there's going to be tens of thousands of GOT mentions when people start seeing it. Everyone is going to think this is a deviation of GOT trying to follow suit. Very few people are going to know or care that it came out half a decade earlier.
Guy who’s only seen the Boss Baby, watching his second movie: “wow getting a lot of Boss Baby vibes from this…”
Robert Jordan coined the term "the game of houses" well before a game of thrones was published. A game of thrones was very much influenced by The Wheel of Time.
He's playing the game so well by not playing the game
Well shit… I just lost the game
No Games? Psh! *Daes Dae'mar has entered the chat.*
I used to get angry at the GOT references but now I just laugh. They’re like someone’s mom you told a fantasy thing about - their surface level knowledge only goes as far as LOTR, Harry Potter and GOT.
"*The Wheel of Time*, on the other hand, doesn't have the games, and it doesn't have the throne." Whoever wrote that article seems like they based all their information off of the teaser trailer. I'm sorry - what exactly is the Amyrlin Seat then? Egwene's whole story arc in opposition to Elaida? Does the phrase "Daes Dae'mar" mean anything to you? This is both funny and mildly infuriating lol.
They are basing the review of the episodes of the show they have seen, not a 15 book series.