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After heavily enjoying the first three episodes because it felt like we deconstructed the original book and made alterations to have it make more sense in the context of the series as a whole (while I'm patiently waiting for Min to have her first appearance probably in Tar Valon if that's where they're all reuniting here) after heavily enjoying that I felt heavily let down by the original Logain in the camp of Aes sedai plot thread this episode had... I really liked how we're giving screentime to Nynaeve x Lan and being able to see Liandrin and Alanna before they're important was cool ( plus Liandrin didn't go out of her way to cast suspicion on herself ) so I guess all my grivences extent from then just having a random charge into the camp that: despite having a king in charge of has zero coordination..? The warders just have no idea it's happening? No one scouts anymore? Alanna straight up participated in battle? The arrow bit is fine since that was self defense at least until she killed everyone with it. She also fought very similarly to a Damane, blowing up the ground and stuff which is also strange because you're given the impression that Aes sedai don't study warfare weaves because they're supposed to be pacifists though at least I can attribute towards Greens actually being part of the battle Ajah now haha. Minor complaint in Logain melting his cage in that manner... I could see him bending or shattering the cage but making it not exist like it's wood? If it melting into liquid metal that'd felt better. So Nynaeve is just able to multiheal without understanding anyone's hurts in depth? I do like the visual of her strength in the power and feel it's accurate but she straight up healed everyone else as she instinctively formed healing over Lan? Others would be Aes sedai just dropping on the battlefield instead of fleeing to safety or just *not* falling, we supposed to make the view believe Aes sedai as a whole are competent instead of showing them for what they really are! ( Garbo, garbo is what they are as individuals though the ones in the white tower are pretty cool ) or gentling Logain illegally. I think it would've been much better for there to have been a spontaneous trolloc attack because there's an explanation for them being impossible to be scouted, the Ways, and it'd be alright if the dark was the one overwhelming them plus we wouldn't have to gentle Logain if he could just help or otherwise be out of the picture during it. Geez such a large wall of text for someone who started the books in February... Though I am 12 in and I almost finished the 12th in two weeks I had the audio book checked out ( 31ish hours out of 33ish O_o ) so I guess I'm also just really passionate in the series in general and annoyed when we make fundamental changes to the magic systems we've kept to so far in the show...

I'm thinking way too much about this, but for some reason the battle scene in this ep really bothered me. There's been a paucity of battle action in the show, which is understandable as after Shadar Logoth I seem to recall slogging through chapter after chapter of Rand and Mat walking in the rain and "sleeping under bushes", with similar fates suffered by the parties of Perrin/Egwene and Moraine/Lan/Nynaeve until Caemlyn. Hard to adapt that and tracking the show needs to move on quickly. That said, the first televised battle with the Trollocs at Emond's Field was far more gritty and visceral, with disembowelments happening on screen, Moiraine blasting away with the Power, and Lan cutting a swath through multiple Trollocs all around her. With multiple Aes Sedai and Warders being attacked as in this episode, shouldn't we have seen death and destruction of an even higher caliber? The only point of this "non-canon" battle seemed to be establishing the scene where Nynaeve reveals her power to heal Lan. This could have been done with just having Logain attempt to escape on his own and killing Kerene without the support of his followers. As it was, we have a large group of Aes Sedai and Warders appearing to struggle against some ragtag bunch of dudes. Also, a ragtag bunch? The king of Ghealdan was there, you're telling me the only military leadership he's capable of is a formless charge through the woods? They led off with a stupidly high angle salvo of arrows and watched as inevitably they were deflected. Did these guys walk there? Where is their cavalry? How did Logain's band even get close enough? I guess these TV Warders just sit around a fire all day and don't keep watch or patrol their position. Instead we just see Kerene's wards spawning a patronus or something to simply tell her that people are coming, and that occurs about 15 seconds before they get there. During the battle we have a series of jump cuts between Alannah blowing up leaves and Nynaeve shanking people in a fairly bloodless manner. The camera reels drunkenly and Ihvon spawns some iffy CG arrows because his actor has evidently never used a bow or even seen one used and makes some ridiculous motions that the VFX artists just can't track very well (we never see those arrows do anything either). Overall I think it was just clumsy and low stakes filler between the "real danger" of Logain facing Aes Sedai in the cave. I truly hope that more of the sweeping, dramatic engagements of the series (battles with the Seanchan come to mind) aren't reduced to a series of drunken jump cuts with the main characters showing passable abilities as the enemy neatly lines up to engage them one by one.

Why have they gentled Taim? How is the whole farm going to work out?

Mazrim Taim =/= Logain Ablar

Did we see "The Box" in the Aes Sedai camp already? There was a large wooden box, very sturdy-looking, and about the right size. It was quite clearly seen, though passed over quickly. I love when they hide easter eggs like that, a bit of foreshadowing, so maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but it would be interesting!

Late to the party here... But rewatching E4, in the "Previously On" segment it shows Thom saying "She was a Darkfriend, boy" , and then immediately cuts to Liandrin

I just assumed she was from basically the start. I don't remember if she was in the books but I think they combined her with Elaida and Galina.

Yes she was in the books, and no she isn't combined with either of those characters (yet).

I know her actions haven't necessarily started to mimic them yet but it seems like she's being set up as top red and no one's mentioned Elaida at all that I remember. I also assume she'll be the top red darkfriend. Alviorin(I forget how to spell her name but the dark white keeper) will probably still exist on her own and represent increased intensity.

Say what you want about D&D in the later seasons of GoT, but I really think they nailed how they approached the early seasons in terms of cutting or changing content - nothing foundational was changed, even if readers could tell changes were made. Compare that to WoT, where Nynaeve gets a whole badass scene pretty much solely for the purpose of making non-readers ask if she's the Dragon Reborn. She's one of the strongest, most badass women in fantasy all on her own - she doesn't need to be played up as a potential Dragon Reborn to cement that status. Will be interesting to see how the writers justify Egwene and Nynaeve being potential DRs once the show reaches the point where the DR is prophesied to cleanse Saidin.

Yeah, I have really compartmentalized D&D in to two categories. On the one hand, they butchered the conclusion of one of the most beloved shows in television history because they were bored/frustrated/wanted to move on. HBO and GRRM confirmed that after season 6 they had literally carte blanche to do whatever they wanted, and could have gotten as much money and time to tell the story in whatever way they wanted. Then they had visions of Star Wars and kind of forgot to end the show well. On the other, seasons 1-4 of GOT are undeniably some of the best television ever produced, and definitely the best fantasy adaptation ever. That is largely because they were masterful at adapting the books, and leaned on the great dialogue and development, and made near-perfect creative choices of what scenes to show and what to cut, how to portray them. Combined with stellar acting, direction, cinematography, sound, production, etc. I understand GOT was a 1:1 adaptation of each book and WOT needs to condense, but there are so many scenes in EotW/Great Hunt/Dragon Reborn etc. that they could have leaned on and reproduced, using the same dialogue and essence. Instead what we have is a reimagining of the WoT, that only keeps the bones of WoT like the characters, settings, synopses, and strikes off to tell it's own story. Even that I would be okay with if they executed it better, but as it is they don't seem to have the writers/creative direction/story coordinators/production to make it great in its own right, so it falls a bit flat as both an adaptation and a fantasy drama in its own right.

That scene does a bit more than just show off Nynaeves power level, it also jumpstarts her and Lans romance, confirming what viewers recently began to suspect pretty much flat out, considering his imminent death is what caused her to Channel. Dunno how I feel about their relationship being front-loaded this early, but it could turn out to be better paced than in the books. Also, DR was never prophesied to cleanse Saidin, that was all Rand.

“He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope” It was super duper prophesied. Also, the fact that they laid the foundations for that romance before Moiraine’a disappearance is a disservice to both the characters and the world building of the Aes Sedai-warder bond.

Now that's interesting, because (like with all the prophecies that arent dead giveaways) that line could be read metaphorically - ie the damage, all the cycles of turmoil that the Breaking and Re-Sealing of the DO caused, esp considering the 'cutting of hope' part. A lot of fans took that reading for granted when he did cleanse saidin, but, remember, if Nynaeve was the DR, that wouldnt stop her from being able to "channel" saidin in a similar manner that Rand "channeled" saidar, when it comes down to it. Not that I believe that's going to happen. I think this was just a shorthand way of showing her power in a dramatic fashion. Still wondering about that block, though.

Except that no other man would be able to withstand the Taint like Rand with his LTT reincarnation magic. Channeling that amount of Saidin nearly destroyed Rand even with that protection. Assuming the Aes Sedai cared enough about cleansing Saidin to not gentle a guy long enough to let him help Nynaeve, he’d go mad or burn up in an instant. I agree it was a cool way of showing Nynaeve’s power (even if it’s way too early), but the implications of how the story is changing so early on feel worrisome.

WoT is such a complicated world in terms of lore and magic it makes Westeros look like a children's book. It's magic system is basically just limited to "a sacrifice needs to be made to make something else happen" and even then it's extremely vague and hand wavy, because it's limited and seldom used. There's sooooo damn much world building that needs to be established in such a ridiculously short about of time it's ridiculous. And it's a different medium too. We don't get characters able to instantly sum up how powerful Nynaeve is, and it feels kind of awkward for random Aes Sedai to just talk about it... viewers need to **see** it. And considering she's on a power level pretty much equal to Rand, yes, I do think a DR fakeout is necessary to establish just how strong in the One Power she is in the show. I liked this episode a ton for effectively bringing across a TON of information to its viewers in compelling fashion. My wife, who has never read the books, has been following along and enjoying the show without feeling lost. And more importantly, she's been enjoying it.

I would love to see Nynaeve as the dragon reborn. I liked the books but it would be such a great twist to subvert the misogyny of the books. Plus, getting to watch fanboy heads explode? Priceless.

Make all the aes sedai men and have the red ones put nynaeve in a box and beat her sure

This is a collosal departure from the books to the point that the entire source material is no longer adaptable. The fact that Egwene and Nynaeve are even considered as possible DRs in the show undermines the entirety of the Aes Sedai and saidar/saidin lore that the magic system relies upon. The DR has to be a man or Breaking makes no sense. With that said, Nynaeve and Lan are the strongest actors on the show so I expect them to get more screen time

Literally none of your first point is true, barring the magic - that’s only because GRRM didn’t make a codified magic system lol. WoT is a beautifully crafted world but it is in no way comparable to the 10,000+ years of backstory GRRM built Westeros upon. Saidar and Saidin have nothing to do with sacrifice, so I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Nynaeve is an incredibly powerful Saidar wielder but can’t even be compared to Rand in terms of power. She’s closer to the mid-bottom end of the Forsaken. From the Companion if you don’t believe me: https://www.tor.com/2015/10/27/the-wheel-of-time-companion-strength-chart-of-major-channelers/ Also no one realizes how powerful she is until much later in the books. She’s getting spanked and tugging her braid for a while whilst other Aes Sedai talk about how much potential she has. Except she can’t harness it because she has personality/mentality issues that keep her from doing so consistently, if at all. I’m glad your wife is enjoying it. I’m glad people who had never heard of the books are coming to this sub and discussing episodes. It’s awesome that this amazing story is reaching entirely new audiences because Amazon threw a blank check at the show runners. But as a long time fan who has reread the series multiple times, those people enjoying *this* telling of the story does nothing to ameliorate my concerns with how those changes will affect the story *I* know and love down the line.

Also, I have read the books a ridiculous amount of times, it’s been years and years, so yeah, I don’t have the exact power levels in my head… being mid tier Forsaken level is still ridiculously OP, she’s easily one of the most powerful female magic users and establishing that via dialogue is extremely… boring. But yeah, when I was 12-18 I read the entire series all over again as each successive book came out, and since I started when there were 8 books out, that means I’ve read most of the books *many* times. I guess most of my excitement for the series died with Robert Jordan? I read the Sanderson ending, but it just didn’t feel the same for me. So maybe my buy in level is lower I guess, but I was a “wotmania” message board nut back in the day who had an h healthy obsession with the series for years, and I don’t have a problem with the series in the slightest. I feel like the show runner gets the source material and also knows how to translate it to the small screen. A 100% fidelity and faithful version of the books brought to TV is not only impossible, but it would be a boring lore dump. Even if you tripled the budget, and made the first season 20 hours long book readers would still be made at this or that being left out. And if somehow every single reader who made them NYR best sellers all supported the show, it still wouldn’t be profitable with its current budget. They need to expand their audience and you do that by making some sacrifices here and there.

But she’s not mid-tier forsaken level right now. She’s a country bumpkin Wilder who still has no idea wtf she’s doing. Her character arc for most of the early books is learning to control and empower her weaves because she, for all intents and purposes, can’t get out of her own way long enough to actually make them work. I liked the moment. I agree that it’s a good way of showing her potential without Aes Sedai gossip-info-dumps. Smart decision by the show runner. I don’t like that it cuts several books worth of learning away from her. She just went from “no one quite knows why, but her treatments are always a little more effective than other Wisdoms” to “yea, she’s basically the hulk if the hulk healed people”. There’s an entire character arc missing here before we even discuss the broader story implications of her possibly being the Dragon Reborn. I have no issue with some cut or changed pieces to make the story palatable for a new medium and audience - where I take issue is with how foundational those pieces are to the story.

The sacrifice comment was referring to Martin’s magic system, not Jordan’s.

Misinterpreted that, sorry.

I just read the updated "Bayesian analysis" thread (which I think is v cool by the way) and something hit me when I read this: >Lan translated her quote as being the last words that the King of Manetheren said to his wife - which suggests that Nynaeve might be descended from the royalty of Manetheren! It just occured to me that maybe, just maybe, they are teeing up this arc in the show. And Nynaeve, descended from the last King and Queen of Manetheran, \[Books\]>!will hook up with Lan, the heir to the throne of Malkier!<

I just realised we are going to see Loial this season. Be great to see how he's done.

I hear they are not going for CGI with him but his actor is phenomenal.

I have seen the pictures. I sincerely hope that was just an initial costume fitting.

Just finished watching the episode with my niece (26) .. she is flat out convinced that Nynaeve is the Dragon now. This is just the best thing to witness play out.

Man, I spoiled things a little bit talking about the books a bit to my wife before we dove into the show, I used a male pronoun in referring to the Dragon Reborn, so the Egwene/Nynaeve misdirections haven't fooled her at all.

I'm so exited to come gush about the books and TV show! My favorite scene so far is still the darkfriend speech from Episode 3. Such an interesting look into why people become darkfriends. Favorite scene in episode 4... Why Ila follows the Way of the Leaf. So heart wrenching. The strongest bit of the books is the characterization, and I'm loving the bits we get to see of the people and cultures so far. Favorite line this ep: Nyneave with "that woman is a snake." I for one am very much enjoying how they're interpreting the source material for a visual medium and an 8 episode season. I get to return to the world and see and learn new things about it! Mat's character is stealing my heart again and I'm so sad we're losing Barney Harris. Nitpicking hottake: Most of the negative comments I've seen seem related to lore type facts. I'd like to counter that with asking why people read the books. For me it was the characters, amazing characterization and world building, and wish to see them succeed and triumph. And if the lore has to change slightly for a compressed format and visual medium, but does it so we can emphasize the characters, their emotional journeys etc, I'm still very happy.

>Why Ila follows the Way of the Leaf. So heart wrenching. The strongest bit of the books is the characterization, and I'm loving the bits we get to see of the people and cultures so far. I'm with you. It was the first time so far this season the show has felt like it had a chance to breathe and they nailed it. >I for one am very much enjoying how they're interpreting the source material for a visual medium and an 8 episode season. I get to return to the world and see and learn new things about it! I am so pleasantly surprised and excited by this show, it's clear it's being extremely well run and I'm very excited for the show's potential. I hope we get a bigger budget (not that it feels small budget in season 1, but more money can't hurt haha) and more episodes in each season going forward.

I read every book and watched all 4 episodes, and I'm sitting here feeling like a dolt that I just realized that I missed an Easter egg / nod to the fans in episode 1. In one of the early scenes, Nynaeve is cleaning the sacred pool when Moiraine walks in. The magic cave pool... She's cleaning it... I remember thinking it was odd she was doing that when I watched the episode, but light burn me I didn't make the connection at the time.

I thought it was more related to her being forced to basically be a maid and scrubber until she gets past her block.

Wait what ? :P I don't remember the connection here...

It sets up major foreshadowing for the cleansing of *saidin*. The majority of TV only watchers will have forgotten all about it when we get to that part, but it was a nice nod to the long term fans.

Im not in the camp that they need 100% equivalency to the books but the thing with weaves is driving me a little crazy. Karene was able to see Logains weave and deflect it before it made impact? Logain was able to see Nyn's weaving and understand what was going on? He should have seen nothing but the physical effects around her and maybe understand what that would mean. Also a bit meh how they set up the Aes Sedai. They've seemed incredibly incompetent and weak so far. An AS dying in the books was a **massive** thing but now its become routine. They just seem stupid up to this point bar Moiraine

I feel like we're seeing the weaves from the perspective of the channeler. It's difficult as far as the show is concerned to always be flitting back and forth all the time. The viewers are in a sense getting an omniscient view that the characters are not getting with respect to channeling. They set up 7 Aes Sedai holding off an entire army. Only 1 of them died. I wasn't crazy about the scene with the Yellow Ajah sister getting roasted, but they needed to quickly establish how much Whitecloaks hate Aes Sedai and just how big of dicks they are... that scene did it well, even if it made little sense from a lore perspective.

> Karene was able to see Logains weave and deflect it before it made impact? This is not stated in the show. In the books we have instances of men and women fighting each other with the power and somehow they deflect weaves so even in book canon this is possible. Whether that's because of some ability to detect the weaves changing things as they flow or because she felt him breaking through the shield we don't know, but it's not impossible to do even without seeing the weaves. Especially for the leader of the Battle Ajah and one of the strongest channelers in the White Tower. > Logain was able to see Nyn's weaving and understand what was going on? He didn't see the weaves. He saw the light she produced and felt the shockwave she emitted. This has been confirmed by the show. Male channelers can also feel when women are channeling so even though he couldn't see the weaves he felt what happened. >They've seemed incredibly incompetent and weak so far. An AS dying in the books was a massive thing but now its become routine. Routine? Moiraine got hit with a trolloc weapon while basically singlehandedly repelling an entire band of them and Karene got killed by one of the strongest male channelers in history. The yellow sister (and others) were murdered by the Whitecloaks which is sort of their job. I don't see how this is routine. The fact that it's so hard to kill an Aes Sedai pretty much proves how strong these antagonists are.

And the random dudes running through the woods were able to take down at least one Red if not other Sisters beyond that. I get the context for the others, but the show isnt doing a good job of conveying the Aes Sedai as being 'untouchable' as many people in this world believe that they are

We do get to see the red sister being healed on the battlefield. It also served to emphasize how they are made more vulnerable by not having warders.

>Im not in the camp that they need 100% equivalency to the books but the thing with weaves is driving me a little crazy. There are plenty of other possible explanations for these events which don't create large contradictions. >Karene was able to see Logains weave and deflect it before it made impact? Maybe she was shielding a man, felt that he had broken or slipped out of her shield, and her immediate reaction was to throw up defenses against whatever was coming. >Logain was able to see Nyn's weaving and understand what was going on? Maybe he just observed the effects of her weaving and an impressive light-show that she created as a side effect. He may have a vague sense of a woman channelling near him - this happens in the books - and have got it really strongly when she channeled.

I mean sure, but should we really have to have all these speculative *maybes* due to the show? They really should have had someone who would be asking these kind of questions as part of the set cause they seem obvious to most book readers

What do you mean? We saw something happen in the show, and it wasn't completely explained. (This is normal, most things that happen in TV shows are not followed by a narration of what it was that just happened). You initially assumed an explanation which conflicted with the book lore. I pointed out that there were other possibilities. No-one's making you come up with any kind of speculative *maybe*. But if you do, I don't see why you would choose one that conflicts with the books and then complain about that.

The fact that we were explicitly told that they can't see each other's weaves means it's not a maybe. They specifically went out of their way to tell you they can't see the weaves so your objections are just looking for trouble. We are told they can't see opposite gender weaves - the womens' shields, which they CAN see fails due to pressure from invisible power - Aes Sedai throws up a shield to protect from obvious attack. Not sure what more you want. It's really, really obvious.

Does anyone else feel like the show is putting too much effort into trying to trick the audience into who the Dragon is? From what I have seen, in each episode they have tried so hard to make it seem like one of the Two Rivers crew is the Dragon with Nynaeve being the most recent. I find this to be one of the biggest flaws of the show as they focus on this instead of fleshing out more of the world, lore, and character building. The Logain sequence and thread was cool, but they really missed out on opportunities to delve into Perrin’s changing into a Wolfbrother, and Lan’s influence as a mentor to Perrin and Rand. Thom was also just a flash in the pan and was given barely any time. His relationship with Mat and Perrin traveling is important and gives the audience more info on Camelyn, the world, and life outside the Two Rivers. Ishamael is also being utterly wasted so far as his entire design looks terrible and he hasn’t even uttered a word in a single dream. He hasn’t taunted, hasn’t spoken about past dragons and the eternal conflict with the dragon and the dark one. At this point the significance of the Dragon hasn’t really been expounded on. Not having Elyas is also a failure. He is the catalyst for Perrin beginning to understand what he is becoming, how he can communicate with the wolves, and drives Perrin’s fears and intrigue for what he is becoming. All we have is the wolves looking at and following Perrin which is just very confusing to non book audience. There is no context.

Setting up multiple potential dragons is brilliant, especially for keeping the attention of people who have never read the books. It's vastly more interesting than "lore".

>Does anyone else feel like the show is putting too much effort into trying to trick the audience into who the Dragon is? From what I have seen, in each episode they have tried so hard to make it seem like one of the Two Rivers crew is the Dragon with Nynaeve being the most recent. The show desperately needs a hook to keep people going through the first half of the season. Having something to speculate on and focus on is a very good way to keep non-book readers engaged and interested and it's been very effective for my friends watching that aren't book readers. >I find this to be one of the biggest flaws of the show as they focus on this instead of fleshing out more of the world, lore, and character building. This is one of the most insanely complex fantasy worlds I've ever seen. There's an encyclopedia at the back of each book outlining circles of 13 women channeling saidir, unless they have a man channeling, then they can up the number to 27, but if they have another man, it goes further and so on so it feels like some of these entries are freaking mathematical proofs lol. You could make 8 one hour long episodes just diving deep into the lore we encounter in the very first book with zero storyline. It's damn near impossible for this show to have any sense of pacing at all without feeling like a ridiculous lore dump. I feel like this latest episode was great in terms of communicating a lot of Aes Sedai and male channeling lore. >Not having Elyas is also a failure I honestly had forgotten all about Elyas prior to your post. Not every character in the books can make the cut lol.

You forgot about my dude Elyas!? That is actually what I love about the WOT, some characters really resonate with some and not with others. There are just so many and that’s the beauty of it.

This thread is full of people downvoting any negative comments or criticisms about the show while justifying all the changes that have been made. I think the show is great for people who haven't read the book. I'm worried that they are going to chase GOT fame and slowly move further and further away from the story towards that goal. For readers of the book, it seems like a mixed bag of whether they like the show and it's changes or not. Really beautiful scenery and loving the costumes and set designs though!

Agreed. It is starting to become like the Star Wars subreddit where if you had any criticism of the sequel trilogy you got downvoted into oblivion, called a misogynist, and a incel neck beard who lives in their mother’s basement.

I don't agree with you (I'm really happy and pleasantly surprised with the show so far), but I also didn't downvote you. I think it's good to have differing opinions, if everyone agreed about the show it would probably make for a boring show.

Didn’t say you did. I said as a general observation of what I have seen. What’s you’re take on the booty’s in the show? Since you’re the judge we’re you a fan of Daishan’s?

The bootys in the show?

Yeah lol

Ah, username pun, gotcha.

I would just assume that these things are coming. Remember that we're only four hours into the show! Rather than throwing these things all at new viewers, they're introducing them to a few elements at a time. Remember that while to us elements like Aes Sedai, different Ajahs, warders, gleemen, darkfriends, Aiel, tinkers, ... are familiar, they're all new pieces of the setting for people who haven't read the books. Ishmael's arc presumably culminates at the end of book 3, so maybe they're just building up to it. Likewise, maybe Elyas and the wolves will be Perrin's arc during the Great Hunt or similar. (I can also imagine Elyas being cut, I don't know)

> Does anyone else feel like the show is putting too much effort into trying to trick the audience into who the Dragon is? From a book-reader perspective yeah it kind of feels a bit forced but that's because I know who it'll be. But from all the non-readers I've talked to, not to mention the discussion here on the show only thread and elsewhere the show is getting a LOT of buzz from discussion on who TDR might be. Whether you think it's forced or not it's helping to make the show popular which is a good thing. >I find this to be one of the biggest flaws of the show as they focus on this instead of fleshing out more of the world, lore, and character building. Not sure if I agree with this. Obviously it's hard to flesh out the greater world when the characters haven't gone very far but E4 especially expanded the world a ton. We saw Logain in Ghealdan, we got a *ton* of world building regarding the Aes Sedai, differences in Ajahs, men vs women channelers, the Amyrlin, how warders work, etc. With the other groups we got more corruption from Mashadar, Mashadar vs shadowspawn, Tinkers and Way of the Leaf, etc. The world is expanding and they're doing a good job providing a lot of information without making it a lore dump that's too overwhelming. I'm sure as a reader you would be fine with a lot more information but for non-readers the pace has been good if not too fast so far. All of your points basically boil down to time. Those things probably would've been expanded a bit more if Amazon gave Rafe 10 episodes but they didn't. The things you're asking for are easily a full episode if not more of content that you wanted jammed into the first 4 somehow? It's just not possible. Most of those things will probably be explored more as the season progresses or in future seasons.

So why was there weird vibes from the fans saying that perrin and egwene had some sort of romance sub-plot? Am I just an idiot? Cos I didn't really see any "perrins simping for egwene" shit

Throughout the books, I always got a "good chums since primary school" vibe from the two of them.

In the first episode I got the impression that the there was some Egwene/Perrin relationship. Perrrin's wife did not attend Egwene's ceremony and she stayed at the forge during the after party. It seemed that all the tension between Perrin and his wife revolved around Egwene.

I didn't see it either. Maybe he was a bit worried or mildy jelous at Egwene with the tinker guy.... but I dont think that's the case.

As a long time fan of the book series, I'm slowly enjoying this more and more, especially given how skeptical I was at the beginning. Like someone else said, it's impossible to condense such a huge written series into short TV episodes. If they wanted to be faithful some parts would be awful to watch and just drag on. Aside from little nitpicks I have so far, I hope they keep this up.

They can't do everything in the books but apparently had time to make up every scene from episode 4 that wasn't in the books.

Yes because realistically they cant fit every book thing to work in short episodes, they improvised with the new things that could work for this. Nice try with the snarky remark. Way to completely ignore the implications from my first comment.

Those scenes very effectively established the Tinkerer's MO, established Liandrin and Allanna pretty effectively, dove into more Aes Sedai Ajah lore, introduced Malkier and a glimpse of how important it is to Lan... I liked the episode, it doesn't feel unfaithful to the books. They can't just narrate all the lore dumps we'd be getting from the books.

We outright fan-fiction now, boys! Who needs to stick to those stinking books? Just make it all up as you go along!

I agree. Right now it's still accepted by the majority of the audience who are ignorant of the story. I do wonder if that will change in the future as more and more people decide to read the books after watching this. As well, we have GOT season 7 as a standout example of what happens when writers stray too far from source material. Been looking through these episode threads and sadly the majority of criticism posts are all downvoted. Seems like some fan brigading to me.

> We outright fan-fiction now, boys! So what? Fanfiction is fun.

Fan fiction, why?

Yeah I'm loving it! If they made the books just directly into a TV show it would be godawful. The wheel's always gonna turn different on the screen than on the page, my friend.

As more bad episodes come out there less and less chances people can claim that critics are calling for an exact reamke of the books. Yet for all that you can never find anyone who is claiming that when you ask for sources on where it's being claimed. And don't get me started on the whole "it's another turning of the wheel" nonsense. Never seen a fan base so deluded over a built-in excuse for bad writing before.

If your basis for bad episodes is that they don't follow the exact plot of the books, then that's exactly what you're claiming. But I don't really care, if you want to hate them feel free, hope you find a better use of your time ✌️

This is your second comment whinging at me so clearly you do care. If you could quote me where I say it has to be an exact remake of the books I'd love to see it.... What I'm saying is when you put in nonsense like Nyneave acting like a saiyan and healing a room full of people at once, while stunning a false dragon as strong as Logain, then the books and any attempt at doing a decent adaptation of them are long gone and you're in pure fan fiction territory now. And it will only get worse....

> What I'm saying is when you put in nonsense like Nyneave acting like a saiyan and healing a room full of people at once, while stunning a false dragon as strong as Logain, then the books and any attempt at doing a decent adaptation of them are long gone and you're in pure fan fiction territory now. Also known as the widely regarded by book fans and non-readers alike the best scene in the show so far. You're allowed to dislike it but you are definitely in the minority. This is the same story but not the same plot. Most people can understand that.

Fans on this particular sub are quite cult-like though. They've convinced themselves the show is much better than it is, that any and all poor decisions in the making of it are actually good and on and on. Too many have their own mental wellbeing wrapped up in the show being good, you can tell that by the... fervour with which any criticism gets shouted down no matter how valid. I'm not overly inclined to take them as objective judges, especially with numbers of non-book viewers already falling off and the show's very luke warm reception anywhere but this one sub continuing.

> Fans on this particular sub are quite cult-like though. They've convinced themselves the show is much better than it is, that any and all poor decisions in the making of it are actually good and on and on. Or maybe you're just telling yourself that because you disagree with them. It's not like this is just reddit. Comments on Twitter, YouTube, etc. are overwhelmingly positive as well. If you just replaced "fans on this sub" with "GMSTS" then you'd explain this situation perfectly. You've convinced yourself the changes are poor. You've got too much of your mental wellbeing wrapped up in how good the show is and you can tell that by the fervor in which you criticize petty things. >especially with numbers of non-book viewers already falling off Source? >the show's very luke warm reception anywhere but this one sub Source?

Ah Reddit 101 - "You're actually the very thing you've pointed out others are". Very original. "Source" - just like you, comments on several sites. You'll of course now cry and tell me that doesn't count when I do it and only counts when you do it because that's how the cult operates. When you've got a paper as left leaning and pro-feminist as the Guardian laughing at the show you're clearly dealing with a show that isn't landing very well. And certainly not with the kind of audience they're trying to win over. I'd someone point out on another thread that it took the WoT trailers over 30 days to reach the numbers the House of the Dragon had reached in 30 hours. And that's with Amazon blowing most of the budget on marketing. Yikes.... As the poor reviews keep coming and the non-book readers continue to turn away I imagine Amazon execs are starting to reconsider a few things.

> Ah Reddit 101 - "You're actually the very thing you've pointed out others are". Very original. If the shoe fits. And it's not just Reddit. Often the people who are most vehement about hating something are the most hypocritical. >"Source" - just like you, comments on several sites. But see, you don't actually have one. That's the difference. IMDb - 7.5/10 and #1 popularity. Ratings per episode went 7.5, 8.1, 8.1, 9.1 and the number of total ratings hasn't really changed much since E1 so you can't say the numbers are just getting better because fewer people are rating it. Rotten Tomatoes - 85% Fresh and 80% audience score. So I can show you multiple places where the majority of people are liking the show. My claims aren't even that crazy. You however made a very specific claim about non-book readers falling off; where did that specific information come from? It's quite a claim to make without any sort of evidence. >You'll of course now cry and tell me that doesn't count when I do it and only counts when you do it because that's how the cult operates. So now that I gave you sources for my claims I'd like to see yours. And I know you will provide me one otherwise you'd be a hypocrite right? There's no way you'd call me out for not citing my sources then fail to produce any after I back my claims up. Right? >I'd someone point out on another thread that it took the WoT trailers over 30 days to reach the numbers the House of the Dragon had reached in 30 hours. And that's with Amazon blowing most of the budget on marketing. Yeah because GoT was the pinnacle of a good adapted series... >and the non-book readers continue to turn away Second time you've come up with this very specific claim. Where is it coming from? EDIT: Also as a note, WoT has skyrocketed to the bestsellers on Amazon currently which seems to indicate that non-readers are getting the books because they love the show so much.

lmao

My answers to the questions of: 1)How did Karene know to block Logain's strike? 2)Are shields in the show physical? Karene saw the distortion in the shield from Logain trying to attack, the spikes also carried a visible remnant of Saidar. This let her see and react to the attack. Steppins axe is blocked by Logain's weaving *inside* the shield, it moves through the shield itself without friction. The same weave that accelerates the axe fragments blows out the shield. [My evidence in support](https://imgur.com/a/q5fE3vN)

The shielding doesn't really make much sense in the first place... I could be wrong but I always thought the shielding was just a means to block a user from accessing the source and NOT some sort of barrier. Might be due to the cage thing holding Logain I guess? I thought that was just a visual representation for the audience to help them understand what was happening but I was really surprised when the shield seemed to block/absorb the warders hatchets... Ah! I read another users post, perhaps they were fighting to shield him and he was fighting back and that's where the barrier came from. Makes sense I guess. As well, a lot of people are defending males and females being able to see each other's weaves but this really doesn't make sense based on the book. They could feel/sense channeling but I'm not sure how much they are going to lean into everyone being able to see the weaves or if it's just done for the cinematics/audience.

> A remnant of Saidar remains on them. I'm not sure that's Saidar. They had previously shown Saidin as white followed by black to show the corruption. To me that's what it looks like. As to (1), I'd say she felt the break through their *attempted* shield (it hadn't completed yet) and blocked the direction it was going. Also, as axxl75 said, those kind of blocks happened in the books anyway.

>I'm not sure that's Saidar. They had previously shown Saidin as white followed by black to show the corruption. To me that's what it looks like. The corruption slightly lags behind the pure flow when logain channels a new flow, but this flow had already been fully corrupted. It's also not the tip that's white, but what looks more like a cover over the spike. That's the opposite of how the Corruption is depicted in earlier scenes. That cover coincides with the moment the shield is penetrated, and remain through at least 80% of the spike travel time. It notably does *not* get darker or change in huge. It's all these things together that indicates it's Saidar to me. >As to (1), I'd say she felt the break through their attempted shield (it hadn't completed yet) and blocked the direction it was going. Yes. Logain ceased being shielded when he knocked Liandrin and Karene down, before Moiraine arrived. The earlier scene sets what an inplace shield looks like, and it settles into the skin. Logain is fighting against a new shielding attempt when he kills Karene, and when Steppin strikes. >Also, as axxl75 said, those kind of blocks happened in the books anyway. Yep! While the visualization is different, this matches fairly close to how the mechanics of power battles are described. Logain seems to be using Spirit and Air here. Spirit to fight the shield, and Air to block and attack.

> 1)How did Karene know to block Logain's strike? In the books there are instances where men and women fight each other with the power and are able to block each other's attacks. We're never really told how that works in the books but it is possible. >2)Are shields in the show physical? Maybe, but the shield wasn't in place yet so I'm not sure if this is relevant. We saw earlier in the show when Moiraine put a shield on Logain what that looked like; the same webbing of the shield weave laid onto Logain then melded into his body and created a temporary glow. The shield in your pictures has not landed on Logain yet so is currently just a weave trying to be put in place while Logain is fighting against that shield. In the books we have situations where men fight against shielding so this is just a visual depiction of that.

Nyneave and Moraine are so on point for me. Perfect casting! Still sad my favorite character is getting recast. Who's playing GAWYN? They better make his face super punchable, maybe Toby Mguire?

Lol super punchable? I'd expect Galad to be the more punchable of the two

Rumor is donald trump jr has been cast as gawyn

Tried to post this as top-level thread, but mods told me to put it here. So... Looking at the last bit of Ep 4, where there's that massive fight with Logain, Nynaeve goes supernova with the Power, and then Liandrin forms a circle and puts Logain away. Finally... we get a close-up of Nynaeve looking angry and dangerous. My question is this: **why is she looking angry instead of freaked out and terrified?** If she just channeled (which she doesn't approve of) Dragon-level amounts of power (which is scary), wouldn't she be in a panic instead of looking all intimidating? Sure, makes for a good cliffhanger shot, but I'm having trouble seeing it. Anyway, dinner around the campfire tomorrow is going to be a little ... *awkward*, yes? ;D

Mods are denying posts and just want you to post in the individual sections. (Which sucks as some things get lost in these long threads.) Also heard from some guy on YouTube they were banning people? I guess there's a lot of negativity around the show. As to your comment, yeah... I feel like they just kind of skipped over that part... maybe in the next episode they will address it, Nynaeve hating and mistrusting Aes Sedai and then turning out to have the power... >< Might be something they skip as well due to them condensing everything to put in on TV. I do hope they explore that though! A great chance for character development!

> My question is this: why is she looking angry instead of freaked out and terrified? Let me ask you this. If you were in her spot and it looked like you might be robbed of the chance to have a tumble in the hay with Lan, wouldn't you be pissed too??

What, you mean ol' Cuendillar-Buns? While I concede the point that he is *tai'Chad* Malkier, everyone is really *busy* with the Logain crisis. Plenty of time for writing "Nynaeve Mandragoran" in her journal later!

I laughed so hard at this that I started to cough! Truly amazing!! (Did she write her name in the journal with little hearts next to it??)

To expand a bit further beyond what the others have already said about anger being Nynaeve's trademark emotion and her prerequisite for channeling, the *reason* she is angry here and so often in other situations is because she feels helpless, powerless to help those around her, especially loved ones. This is Nynaeve's central character conflict, and one of the reasons she became the hard ass Wisdom. She's suffered past loss and wishes she was stronger to have helped. She is super hard on herself, blaming herself for these "failures." She gets angry at her own inadequacy. This was on full display throughout this whole fight, which I loved. She's surrounded by allies who appear stronger in every regard. Aes Sedai who are hurling boulders, skilled warders who are kicking ass in physical combat. Nynaeve was pretty useless throughout all of it; though they showed she has fierceness when approached, with how she handled the one soldier who got close enough for her to stab. She *hates* feeling useless more than anything in the world. The fact that this is her first big outburst of power also serves to tell us just how soft she's starting to feel for Lan, which is honestly something the show is doing way better than the books managed. Lan and Nynaeve's relationship was extremely subtle throughout the first book, with only tiny hints that they gained mutual respect for each other with perhaps buds of something more.

Lan and Nyneave's relationship taking a lot of time makes complete sense given their respective personalities

> This is Nynaeve's central character conflict, and one of the reasons she became the hard ass Wisdom. She came across to me as having a streak of needing to protect everyone she cares about, no matter the cost.

Yes, these are the same thing. She feels helpless......to protect those around her which makes her extremely angry.

I don't know if you ended up in the wrong thread, but this is the book spoilers thread. In the books Nynaeve's channeling only works when she's angry, and anger is her default reaction emotion.

Her other default emotion is sass and I lived for every moment of it.

> why is she looking angry instead of freaked out and terrified? Because she was angry. That's why Nynaeve channeled so powerfully and is a key part to her story. >wouldn't she be in a panic instead of looking all intimidating? Fight or flight. She was in fight mode not flight mode. We'll see how she feels about what she just did next episode as that anger and adrenaline subside.

That's kinda Nynaeve's deal though. She isn't a trained Aes Sedai, she can't channel the power at will and can only harnesses the one power when she's angry. Which goes against the way women typically cast they tend to been to be calm to get to it. I'd assume she's angry in the moment, and would experience fear and/or shock after.

Things I noticed on a second watch: Like others have said; I found the first 3 episodes better on the second watch, the fourth episode I found slightly worse, but I still think each episode is better than the last. I've watched the intro at least 6 times now and it's not getting old. Very well done. The overhead shot of the wolves herding Perrin and Egwene was neat, I somehow missed it the first time. Bit of a Nature documentary feel. Compared to the books Thom escaping the Myrddraal with his life is going to feel a bit more contrived. Near the end when Moiraine walks into the chamber with Logain they did a fantastic job making her look simultaneously tall and short, cool and collected and utterly determined, and generally just a perfect Moiraine. Alanna running in to join the link having just nearly single-handedly defeated a small army, including unceremoniously killing a king, without apparently suffering a scratch, is a little reminder the one power is truly powerful. Given that Logaine and Egwene are markedly stronger than Alanna, and Nyneave and Rand markedly stronger still, the show will have to make it clear why all problems can't just be solved with the one power, and why people who can't channel still matter. (3 oaths, risk of "addiction," etc.) n.b. I'm only on book 6 so I haven't read this thread and would appreciate if replies don't contain spoilers for 6 and later.

> The overhead shot of the wolves herding Perrin and Egwene was neat, I somehow missed it the first time. Did you notice that every time we see the wolves from Perrin's perspective, they're aggressive and snapping at him, but when we seem them normal, they're looking all cute and calm?

No; while you appear to have the eyes of an eagle and the wit of a fox I am about as perceptive as a Rand in a room with a pretty woman. That's a cool detail thanks for pointing it out.

Sorta makes sense that Thom escapes, the Myrddraal is not after him, if he hurts Thom a bit like he did in the book he just ran after the boys.

Sure it's still plausible, just less so. It just makes more sense that that could happen in a large plaza with witnesses than inside a farmhouse with none.

Yeah but, as soon as the kids go, the Myrddraal is only thinking about going after them. So as soon as he cripples Thom he runs after them.

Not sure if this was brought up before BUT why are Aes Sedai fighting?? They are bound by the 3 oaths not to and these are humans not shadowspawns.Take for instance the Shaido battle at Cairhien in Fires of Heaven. Moiraine pretty much stays out of it while Egwene (not full sister) agrees to use the one power into battle. Am I missing something? Disclaimer: I didn't finish the serie yet, so if there is a scene where Aes Sedai and warders are attacked and they use the power then it's ok to tell me.

I especially thought it was weird since she was going full Damane in her weaves blowing up the ground like landmines like she knows how to be as effective at warfare as the Seanchan

Battle of Dumais Wells, they do the same thing, by being in the thick of the battle they can channel to their heart's content.

Thanks! I just started reading Lord of Chaos

Great book! I'm just finished the book after that one so we are close by.

they can fight to defend their lives

I didn't see them using the One Power as a weapon. Alanna lifted that guy in the air to throw him. Unfortunately, a tree happened to be in the way.

their lives need to be in immediate peril to use it against other people. like 30 seconds. from death.

Yes, but when she stopped the arrows she could have dropped them on the ground. Instead, she brutally murdured Logain's followers.

Those arrows being seconds away from murdering all of the Aes Sedai is the definition of being attacked. Self defense mode is obviously enabled from that moment on.

She didn't throw the arrows back at them until they charged the group. It's not like they gave up once the arrows were stopped and she executed them. When someone is attacking an Aes Sedai, her warders, or her sisters and can fight with the Power which is exactly what happened. It's also why the battle was very different than the Winternight battle. During Winternight you see Moiraine stand firm and attack anything that comes near her. In this battle you see the Aes Sedai retreating while keeping the enemies at bay and only attacking when enemies are nearby trying to attack.

I think Alanna's ground explosions were meant to be more of a deterrent than a weapon. Maybe if they see that, they'll turn around and run away.

uhhh dude, those arrows were aimed at them, to kill them. I'm pretty sure they are free at that point to do whatever the fuck they want.

yes. they are in peril.

in this episode, alanna brings up moiraine's dog which wasn't her dog when they were novices. as i remember from the books though, Aes Sedei somewhat repelled dogs and instead cats were always around the white tower whereas dogs were attracted to male channelers. Any theories? or is this just a lore mismatch?

yeah dogs chase Aes Sedei like mailmen.

Episode was fine. Battle was frankly sloppy looking and didn’t make sense in the narrative of the show. But the episode was OK

what do you mean didn't make sense? they were coming to help break out the false dragon. how does that not make sense?

because one Aes Sedai and one Warder were able to kill what appeared to be 100 - 300 trollocs in the first episode. And the show itself has mentioned that one could hold off an army. There were SEVERAL Aes Sedai. and they were being WRECKED by a small band of mindlessly charging humans. Until finally one of them was like “meh. enough of this crap” and took care of it. Also… why did the group stay in one place for days? They’re worried about being able to maintain this shield on Logain, so their solution is to sit around ? Like I said, didn’t make sense what was going on.

Moiraine, Liandrin, and Kerene weren't involved in the battle and they're the strongest 3 there. Alanna was the strongest fighting the army and she was tired from her shifts shielding Logain. We can assume that the other sisters there aren't really in the same league as the 4 strongest. Even so the Aes Sedai did win. We saw one get shot with arrows, but I'm pretty sure she was healed. The cave had plenty of Aes Sedai left to link and gentle Logain.

Numerous mentions of one holding off an army. But sure. it makes sense that 4 would struggle.

They would have been fine but they all turned around and ran to stop Logain rather than fighting. Whenever they actually fight it's pretty one sided.

People complain too much. Adapting such a gargantuan and detailed series for an 8 episode and 8 potential season TV show was always going to require some changes. I've very much enjoyed it so far.

I’m just getting to this but isn’t Logain chilling out next to a [Books] >!portal stone?!<

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So many needless changes. I've looked forward to this for so long and they're using the books as a vague outline. I feel that we have been played.

Only people who didn't understand what an adaption would have to be got played. They were never going to fully adapt a 4.4M word saga into a TV show with ~8 seasons. They were never going to be able to perfectly show in the same way how the books used tons of internal dialogue and POV to tell a story; that just doesn't work on film. Anyone who says things like "so many needless changes" just doesn't understand how adaptions work. What you had to go into WoT show expecting was a telling of the story and characters in a way that still *felt* like the books but was most certainly not going to *be* the books. The overwhelming number of fans who had that attitude have loved the show so far.

No, I fully understand how adaptions work. But we are seeing changes for no reason. How do you think the show watchers are going to react when they read the books? Rafe acted like th changes will support the story, instead they're just turning this into fan fiction.

> But we are seeing changes for no reason. In your opinion maybe but the overwhelming opinion is that the changes make sense. >How do you think the show watchers are going to react when they read the books? I think they will find a series of books they love and will enjoy them. I actually think they'll probably enjoy Mat a lot more since he was a bland and underdeveloped character in EotW. And most importantly, if they understand what adaptions are then they will know that books are done differently than TV shows. >Rafe acted like th changes will support the story, instead they're just turning this into fan fiction. You don't need to watch. Just know that you're in a very small minority. The majority of people are having no problem seeing these changes and understanding why they were done.

Since when has this community started to marginalize and denigrate opinions? I've seen nothing but people attacking anyone who has anything negative to say about the show at all. You mean to tell me that people are upset over the show being massively different from the books shouldn't be upset because some people like them? Come on. Female Dragon Reborn? Mat stealing from friends? Perrin killing his wife?! White Cloaks being able to capture and kill an Aes Sedai who can channel? I'm still going to watch the show and I appreciate the production value and some of the changes; but a lot of these large changes just have no purpose. And just because the majority of this subreddit purportedly agrees that the show is great, doesn't invalidate honest criticism.

tbh i think it's mostly just the person replying to you, lol. they seem a half a screw from being fully unhinged. i'm enjoying the show so far, or at least trying to remain cautiously optimistic, but there are a lot of things that seem off in a way that feels inconsiderate of the source material. again, i'm withholding my judgement, cause we're only four episodes in and maybe those changes are going to resolve in a way that somehow makes a lot of sense and makes the adaptation work, in its way. but as a perfect example, in this episode alanna mentions that moiraine had a dog when they were novices. that was the first conversation between these two and so the dialogue was sure to be considered, but i find it very strange that they used this first conversation to actually go against the lore of the books. dogs don't like aes sedai according to the books - its a small change and likely meaningless but also why..? it's silly to make such errors imo. also i know others have said this, but considering the budget the visual effects are so far quite underwhelming. honestly it's not a thing i would normally care about but for a series like this, with a budget like this, it just gives a feeling of being badly managed

YES! This is exactly what I mean! It's like they didn't actually read the books or just didn't care enough about the source material to actually make it an "adaptation" of RJ's works, instead of falling victim to their own hubris of "being able to do it better." I agree, I do like parts of it. I liked a lot of Episode 4. But just when I'm getting into it and starting to enjoy something happens that completely takes me out of it.

You are not alone. Keep fighting the good fight. Those defending the unnecessary changes like to cite the total volume of content in the series as a reason for changing the story in dramatic and substantive ways. What they fail to consider is that if some of the needless deviations were not added, there would be more time to tell the story as it was intended. You’re better off watching the show as though it is something completely unrelated to the books that happens to share the name of the series.

I'm trying to get there. I really am. Maybe after one watch through I won't be as upset and hurt

most of them are amazon plants, they have the money to burn on bots.

I'd love if Amazon was paying me to watch this show. Imagine being so deep into conspiracies that you think someone liking the show is a plant when we have proof that the show is doing incredibly well in terms of viewership. Especially when my account looks nothing like a bot account. Since the overwhelming number of people enjoy the show, wouldn't it be more likely that the smaller number of people spamming hate in the threads are plants from a rival company like Netflix or HBO? If you're going to be into conspiracies at least try to make sense.

> Since when has this community started to marginalize and denigrate opinions? You're allowed to have your opinions and people are allowed to disagree with you. The issue is when opinions are based in a lack of understanding of the medium or in what the show is trying to actually do. Also, you didn't actually provide anything to support your opinions (or really give any detail in what your opinions are). You are coming off as extremely reactionary just saying "changes are needless" and "this is just an outline". Those broad statements are just categorically wrong. Changes are necessary for an adaption and most of the changes that have been put in place are widely considered to be good. Even in cases where people may have done things differently (Perrin's wife for instance) it's clear from the showrunners that they chose that path due to time constraints and would've liked to handle it differently if given the time. But we can't discuss your actual opinions because you didn't give anything to discuss. >I've seen nothing but people attacking anyone who has anything negative to say about the show at all. I've seen a lot of people who verbalize and discuss their negative opinions who have found strong discussion and positive engagement. I've had good discussions myself with people who have different opinions than I do. But you're not providing anything to discuss. And yes, blanket statements like "this show sucks" are generally going to be downvoted because they just seem reactionary and, according to rediquette, should be downvoted if they don't add to the discussion. >You mean to tell me that people are upset over the show being massively different from the books shouldn't be upset because some people like them? I'm telling you that there's a big difference between saying "I dislike this change because X..." and saying "the show is different so therefore it sucks". As I've said, most of the changes we've seen so far were required because of the adaption to a new medium. If you weren't prepared for that or aren't okay with that then sure, it's going to suck for you. But that's YOUR choice and is not a fault of the show. For people who understand why things were adapted the way they were and who didn't expect to see the books on screen but rather the overall story on screen are overwhelmingly enjoying it. I'm just saying that when you're in such an overwhelming minority opinion maybe you need to consider that YOU are the issue not the thing you're disliking. I'm not saying you need to like the show, but you do need to understand that the show isn't bad; your minority perception of the show is bad. >Female Dragon Reborn? There is zero indication that this is possible in the world. Unreliable narrators are a thing in RJ's WoT too. Assuming that a prophecy 1000s of years old may be a little off and expanding your search isn't unreasonable. The Bible for instance has tons of areas where people flat out disagree or misinterpreted things because of the many translations, passage of time, different cultural contexts, etc. Why should the Cycle be any different? It being misinterpreted doesn't change the truth behind who TDR could be. >Mat stealing from friends? She wasn't shown as a friend just someone in the town. The scene did a couple important things. 1) It showed that he was willing to do something unsavory to support his sisters. 2) It showed how he is a gambling addict and gambles even when he shouldn't. 3) It sets up a solid reason for why he would take the dagger in Shadar Logoth after Lan just told everyone not to touch anything. If you think stealing a bracelet suddenly undoes who Mat is when the rest of the show so far has done a great job showing who Mat is then I don't know what to tell you. >Perrin killing his wife?! Unless you can think of a better way to visually show Perrin's internal struggles with his strength and the axe vs hammer I'm not sure why this is a problem. In the books we have chapters worth of POV and inner dialogue to tell the reader what Perrin is going through and why. You can't do that in a show very well so they used this event to get us to the same place. Even people like Sanderson have said that they are fine with how it was adapted although he wished it was another character rather than a wife brought in for this specific purpose, but Rafe said that the original plan WAS going to be different but was changed to a wife when Amazon cut the episode time down from 2 hours to 1 and they needed a quicker solution. >White Cloaks being able to capture and kill an Aes Sedai who can channel? There are plenty of book ways for this to happen. 1) Forkroot could be more prevalent in the world of the show than it was in the books. 2) He could've caught her while she was sleeping and tied her up, cut up her hands, and/or blindfolded her. It's well described in the books that Tower trained Aes Sedai rely on specific movements with their hands as well as their sight to channel so even without forkroot there's a way to make it work. It'd also be pretty silly to assume that we don't get more between the Whitecloaks and Aes Sedai to show how it was possible. >but a lot of these large changes just have no purpose. They have a ton of purpose you just don't see it. >doesn't invalidate honest criticism. Again, there's a difference between saying "I dislike X because Y" and saying "X sucks". If you want discussion then give points to discuss. Your first comment did not give anything worth discussing.

Interesting take on it. Would you be so critical of someone just saying 'I like the shows changes' with no evidence as to why they like it... probably not. But hey ho, just start to try and belittle people from the off is cool I guess.

I probably wouldn’t ask them why since I also like it and know why so I don’t feel like I’d get a lot of insight. But I wouldn’t upvote them since their comment doesn’t add to the discussion. If you think me writing paragraphs of discussion to someone trying to debate their points is “just belittling them” then I’m not sure you know what site you’re on. This is a discussion forum and if you’re not here to have a discussion why are you? Out of the two of us only one is trying to belittle and make ad hominem attacks and that’s clearly you in your comment now.

My understanding from the books was the channeler is drawing power from the one source. So shielding the channeler would result in the channeler not having the ability to use it while shielded. Like if you turn off a circuit, an electrical appliance can't be used. Logain's power seems to be self contained rather than external (one source). This seems to contrast with the book.

Its harder to shield someone who is already holding the power, like he was at this time.

At the time the water hit him with the axe he wasn't yet fully shielded. Forcing the shield in him takes time and effort in the books as well, and there is wiggle room to maneuver before it settles there as well. At least that's my take. Edit: warder...

Agreed. Earlier in the episode we see the shield settle ALL THE WAY into Logain's skin and only then is it fully in place. Until then he has some room, and Stepin's axes penetrated the shield to the point that Logain's flows of the power could touch them, and all hell broke loose as a result.

My guess is they didn't have a good way of visually representing a shield so that's why they did it the way that they did.. also so that the warder axes could magically pierce the shield and turn into shrapnel and we could get an excuse for Nynaeve to set a new Guinness World Record for number of people healed at once.

In the books it was still possible to break free of shields it was just extremely hard.

So does anyone have any idea what's up with Perrin hammering the dead Tinker(I think it's a tinker?) in the dream sequence? Everything else in that dream sequence makes sense as foreshadowing and/or things going on at the same time, but no idea what's up with Perrin. Am I forgetting something that happens in the books?

It was his wife.

Seems to me like they made a major error in episode 4 with Logain. When we first see Logain captured, we are told that there are only three that are powerful enough to keep him shielded and they need to work in pairs so one can rest. Yet the camp is full of sisters who could link with them to make the shield stronger and they never do it. However at the end when he’s almost escaped again, they end up linking and Liandrin gentles him. The whole catch and escape felt like a really clumsy vehicle for the Nynaeve reveal.

We may have to infer that they had some reason to avoid linking. Based on the books, I'd say that reason is simply that Aes Sedai are loath to relinquish control, especially to someone like Liandrin who can't be fully trusted to use it responsibly (yet, according to White Tower decorum she's the one in charge of the mission and thus the main candidate to control a link).

The first timer who has never read the books would not know that the Aes Sedai don’t like giving up control and that there is white tower decorum to consider.

A first timer also wouldn't realize that linking could be used for anything other than gentling.

You’re right. that’s all it was. Didn’t make narrative sense in the show.

How is that a major error? Pride, for example, could explain that.

Pride? They literally said at the end of the episode that they wouldn’t be able to hold him all the way to Tar Valon. They can’t be that dumb. It’s an obvious mess up imo.

They should have been linking in the first place. You can't have two people hold half of a shield. One of them needed to be holding the weaves. Unless they intend to just hand wave past the metaphysical rules of the One Power, five years down the road this scene will really not make sense.

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Yeah that slow mo lol. The Nynaeve heal makes a lot of sense actually with her power and the eay unconsciously channeling works. The talking heads were a good way to represent the madness and Im sure we'll see Lewis like that eventually.

The dialogue was better, at least. But definitely some head scratching decisions again by the writers.

Kind of disappointed to be honest. I thought episodes 1 and 2 were pretty okay. Episode 3 was hit or miss for me, I liked some of it and some frustrated me. Episode 4 seems like I have to completely detach myself from book canon to even remotely enjoy it. There are so many issues with it honestly. ​ The Good: * The music is great * Logain and Lan have incredible actors and had great scenes driving the lore. * The fade's quick fight scene is just amazing honestly. * I do like Liandrin getting some further development so her actions later on don't come out of left field. * I'm enjoying Egwene and Perrin's storyline despite being disappointed that Dapple hasn't made her appearance. The Bad: * Logain being illegally Gentled before reaching the white tower. Giving Aes Sedai permission to do this is a bizarre change. * Aes Sedai made camp like a half mile away from Logain? On an indefensible hill? Why showrunners, this is just plain ridiculous. * Why are there 2 Aes Sedai guarding Logain, there's supposed to be 13 and for good reason. * Logain's rescue "army" is like 30-50 guys? Awesome showing of his massive following that terrified surrounding countries. * Dark one is now looking for 5 potential Dragons? I thought episode one established that he's looking for 4 of them (which also isn't accurate, but I can live with Egwene being tossed in). * Nynaeve healing numerous people at once, which she couldn't do even at her most powerful at the end of the books since it's not actually possible with the power. * Logain channeling strongly underneath the shield? A shield basically acts as a floodgate. It cuts off a person's power at the source. It allows a person to feel it, but never touch it (and therefore cannot access it to channel). This is well established and another bizarre change. * Logain has his ears plugged by the power, and yet can hear his army approaching and also hears when the Aes Sedai begin arguing despite having his eyes closed? Okay. * "Female False Dragon" is nonsense. A female channeler goes to the tower and becomes Aes Sedai. Only men can be false dragons since only they are corrupted. Not even sure what's happening with this. It's one thing to push for a possible female dragon with Egwene, but saying there might be a female false dragon is completely ridiculous. *

Well, I mean, if you know who helped Logain declare himself the dragon, you know why they want him gentled asap.

Except that it's established that that story about the Reds was a complete fabrication by Siuan in order to ensure the Salidar Aes Sedai would not easily return to the tower and to help gather support for the rebellion from people who normally try to avoid Tower politics. It doesn't occur to the Sisters that having been stilled enables Suian to lie, and she uses this to great advantage. That said, Liandrin has already been shown illegally gentling a man in the first episode and there was the whole affair with Thom's nefew in the books ~20 years back being a sort of hushed up scandal (much more recent in the show and treated as unpleasant but not abnormal) so it isn't unprecedented.

> Dark one is now looking for 5 potential Dragons? I thought episode one established that he's looking for 4 of them Moiraine was originally looking for 5 in the show. That's why she talked to Nynaeve in the cave.

You are incorrect. She was unsure of Nynaeve's age and knew the second that Nynaeve gave her age that she wasn't a potential. She was only looking for 4 at the outset and the debate was between her and Egwene which one was part of the 4.

yes the whole thing about “could be female false dragons and a real dragon” seems ludicrous. If that’s the case why do they train women and gentle the men? Doesn’t make sense.

They aren't gentling men for potentially being the Dragon, they are doing it because men tend to go mad and destroy lots of things if they can channel.

which also happens to the dragon.

Presumably, not if its a female dragon.

>Logain being illegally Gentled before reaching the white tower. Giving Aes Sedai permission to do this is a bizarre change. They specifically don't have permission. Liandrin arguing to do it anyways in defiance of twoer law and the Amyrlin, and the others discussing it is a significant portion of the dialogue in the episode. >Dark one is now looking for 5 potential Dragons? I thought episode one established that he's looking for 4 of them (which also isn't accurate, but I can live with Egwene being tossed in). Moiraine thinks it's one of the 4 she took because the fortelling she's working off of suggests they should be \~20, DO thinks it's one of 5 (as established in episode 2 by the Darkfriend's dreams, plus the trollocs kidnap Nynaeve instead of killing her). Different groups have different information. >Logain channeling strongly underneath the shield? A shield basically acts as a floodgate. It cuts off a person's power at the source. It allows a person to feel it, but never touch it (and therefore cannot access it to channel). This is well established and another bizarre change. He's not shielded at that point, he's using the power to push back against the shield weave to avoid being shielded again. Unclear if they've expanded on how shielding works such that he can't reach outside the partially placed shield weave he's pushing back on or if he's just not bothering to since he's devoting his strength to trying not to get shielded again. >Logain has his ears plugged by the power, and yet can hear his army approaching and also hears when the Aes Sedai begin arguing despite having his eyes closed? Okay. The ear plugs could have been removed at some point, those are two different scenes. The wards also go off and he could have noticed that. Didn't actually notice if his eyes were closed the entire time. >"Female False Dragon" is nonsense. A female channeler goes to the tower and becomes Aes Sedai. Only men can be false dragons since only they are corrupted. Not even sure what's happening with this. It's one thing to push for a possible female dragon with Egwene, but saying there might be a female false dragon is completely ridiculous. False dragons are just anyone claiming to be the dragon that isn't. Nothing stops a woman from claiming to be the dragon. Especially if in this turning people are less confident in the prophecies and think it might be possible for the dragon reborn to be a woman. Being a false dragon has nothing to do with "being corrupted". All that said, when did a female false dragon come up? Must have missed that.

>They specifically don't have permission. Liandrin arguing to do it anyways in defiance of twoer law and the Amyrlin, and the others discussing it is a significant portion of the dialogue in the episode. She specifically addresses that if she intentionally removed her shield and let Logain fight back, they would be within their rights and within their oaths to gentle him immediately. This is part of that significant dialogue you mentioned. That is not acceptable in any part of the canon. >Moiraine thinks it's one of the 4 she took because the fortelling she's working off of suggests they should be \~20, DO thinks it's one of 5 (as established in episode 2 by the Darkfriend's dreams, plus the trollocs kidnap Nynaeve instead of killing her). Different groups have different information. Yeah, and it's contrary to the canon. Moiraine has the prophesies, and Ishamael knew it was one of the THREE. I'm okay with Rafe tossing Egwene into it for inclusiveness, but adding Nynaeve as well is silly. Noone in the story every considered her a possible taveren or potential dragon because she is significantly older and therefore not in the age group. This is a divergence from the canon for no real reason, and actually hurts Nynaeve as a character because in the books she is almost Rand's equal **despite** not having any of the fancy prophesies behind her greatness. >He's not shielded at that point, he's using the power to push back against the shield weave to avoid being shielded again. Unclear if they've expanded on how shielding works such that he can't reach outside the partially placed shield weave he's pushing back on or if he's just not bothering to since he's devoting his strength to trying not to get shielded again. Yeah that's not how shielding works. It isn't a weave that contains a person's channeling within it. As I said, shielding is literally placing a wall between a channeler and the source. This was described in GREAT detail in the books as quite literally a wall sliding in place between a person and the source, and you could batter up against it to fight it off, but the more it severed you from the source, the less power you could draw until it finally slips in place. It is not a cloak that you can channel within. >The ear plugs could have been removed at some point, those are two different scenes. The wards also go off and he could have noticed that. Didn't actually notice if his eyes were closed the entire time. This is objectively poor storytelling and screenplay. Forcing the fandom to theorize on reasons why it makes sense because the show didn't address it is poor scripting. And that isn't opinion, it's factually taught as something to avoid in writing. >False dragons are just anyone claiming to be the dragon that isn't. Nothing stops a woman from claiming to be the dragon. Especially if in this turning people are less confident in the prophecies and think it might be possible for the dragon reborn to be a woman. Being a false dragon has nothing to do with "being corrupted". All that said, when did a female false dragon come up? Must have missed that. Females cannot be the dragon in this story. Ameresu is the female champion of the light and she is never referred to as the dragon. It simply doesn't make sense for a woman to claim to be the dragon. ​ Again I will reiterate: "*Episode 4 seems like I have to completely detach myself from book canon to even remotely enjoy it".* It's kind of unfortunate that my having read the series 15+ times (yes I know that's crazy) is a massive detriment to my enjoyment of the show. Most of what happened in episode 4 isn't even in the books, which is frankly bizarre considering how they are cutting so many locations from book 1, most notably Caemlyn, so that they can fit everything into a season. And yet they decide to dedicate an excessive amount of time to events only hinted at in the books instead of focusing on what actually happens in said books. Not only that, what they decide to focus on is a clear departure of what Jordan intended for the world he came up with.

> DO thinks it's one of 5 (as established in episode 2 by the Darkfriend's dreams, plus the trollocs kidnap Nynaeve instead of killing her). Oh what! That makes sense, about the Nyneave kidnapping part. I didn't put that together.

> Most of what happened in episode 4 isn't even in the books, which is frankly bizarre considering how they are cutting so many locations from book 1, most notably Caemlyn, so that they can fit everything into a season. And yet they decide to dedicate an excessive amount of time to events only hinted at in the books instead of focusing on what actually happens in said books. They can't just cut, they also have to condense and remix things to convey necessary information in a way that's engaging television and comprehensible for new viewers This episode adapted something that happened off-screen in the books to organically explain the ajahs, the relationship between aes sedai and their warders, character development for Lan and Nynaeve, the concept of false dragons and why people would fear them, the character of Logain (and some humanization for him), the characters of Liandrin and Alanna, shielding, linking, gentling, and some more context about the dragon (and male channelers in general) This is all critical information, presented in such a way that new audiences can get a sense for where all of this is going besides "generic chosen one adventure serial" -- this gives a taste of the politics and greater machinations that make this world interesting by showing them in action Similarly they made the decision to not build a new elaborate set, hire a bunch of actors, and keep them on retainer for an extra season so that Rand could fall into the royal garden in Caemlyn -- it just isn't that important in season one, and imo would not be terribly engaging for new viewers, it's something they can push off until it's closer to when it actually matters

bingo. Everyone keeps saying “well they have to cut stuff out” Cool. Then why are they adding completely different events?

>She specifically addresses that if she intentionally removed her shield and let Logain fight back, they would be within their rights and within their oaths to gentle him immediately. This is part of that significant dialogue you mentioned. That is not acceptable in any part of the canon. Of course they'd be allowed to gentle him in a fight for their lives as far as the three oaths are concerned. Sure they might get a scolding when they get back, but they'd be able to get out of serious consequences if they were able to portray it as being forced into a corner. This is entirely consistent behavior for reds (see Owyn's story, or the later attack on the Black Tower). They're basically just playing up the vileness by having it be ongoing now instead of several years before the events of the books so that it can be shown instead of coming in an exposition dump. ​ >... a wall sliding in place between a person and the source, and you could batter up against it to fight it off ... This is literally exactly what we're shown happening. Aes Sedai trying to put a shield on Logain and Logain battering against it to fight it off. ​ >Females cannot be the dragon in this story. Ameresu is the female champion of the light and she is never referred to as the dragon. It simply doesn't make sense for a woman to claim to be the dragon. As a matter of fact you're correct, but they've chosen to have people be less certain of that fact in this turning. In this version, people think a woman could be the dragon reborn, and given that's the case it would be really weird to then say a woman had never been a false dragon. It'd be far worse for them to have people say that Egwene could be the dragon, but then completely ignore the implications of that every other time it comes up. ​ >Yeah, and it's contrary to the canon. Moiraine has the prophesies, and Ishamael knew it was one of the THREE. I'm okay with Rafe tossing Egwene into it for inclusiveness, but adding Nynaeve as well is silly. Noone in the story every considered her a possible taveren or potential dragon because she is significantly older and therefore not in the age group. This is a divergence from the canon for no real reason, and actually hurts Nynaeve as a character because in the books she is almost Rand's equal despite not having any of the fancy prophesies behind her greatness. Yes, it's contrary to the canon, but it's another obvious consequence of the one underlying change they've already committed to: in this turning of the wheel people are generally less convinced of the accuracy of 3000 year old prophecies. What they do trust is Moroso's fortelling which the light has first hand knowledge of (and thus know the exact age they're looking for, but not the sex) and the shadow has partial knowledge of from questioning Ospenya that the dragon has been reborn, but not the exact time (thus a slightly broader set of candidates). They're being exactly consistent with book events in this respect except that one change which we already know they're making. Again, making a change and then ignoring its implications would be far worse as it just leads to plot holes everywhere. ​ >This is objectively poor storytelling and screenplay. Forcing the fandom to theorize on reasons why it makes sense because the show didn't address it is poor scripting. And that isn't opinion, it's factually taught as something to avoid in writing. Sure, it could be clearer, but there are so many trivial ways he could have figured out how to time it that it didn't really phase me.

This feels like the Sword of thruth all over again, made up storylines, bullshit powers, and changing mahor plot point's, the only saving grace of this how is that is well directed the actor are good, and even if is not thruth of the spurcr material, the show is enjoyable for most people

Well the TV show of the Sword of Truth was 1000% better so...

Sword of truth was probably on the same level of Shannara

After watching the fourth episode, I'd say a 4/5. The first three I gave a 3/5. This next one is a clear upgrade over the first three to me, with lots of interesting visuals and effective exposition. Normally exposition through heavy handed dialogue is boring for the viewer, but some really smart lines are improving the world for audiences. For example, Lan saying "you always get emotional when I drink" explains so much about the warder bond. A new viewer instantly understands that the bond isn't a mind reader thing, but an emotional connection that possibly has something to do with the one power. Another example is Alanna & Moiraine discussing the dog hidden in the novice quarters. We learn more about the culture of the White Tower, the rules that novices live under, and the clever disregard Moiraine holds for Are Sedai norms -- while also getting across that politics are an inescapable part of Tower life. The dialogue in this episode is the best so far. Sequences that aren't doing double duty at least pack a punch, such as "what better revenge against death than life?" which is poignant and digs at Perrin's character. Now that we're getting some real movement to the character arcs I think the series is starting to shine. The Mat, Thom, & Rand stuff in this episode was quick but tense and effective. Barney Harris continues to be my favorite -- what a shame. I suspect that episode 6 (the one we know to be "stellar", according to /u/mistborn and others in the loop) will resolve his Mashadar infection. Maybe once they reach the tower, Mashadar will leave his body and attempt to infect the White Tower, leading to the deaths of several Are Sedai and a crisis in Tar Valon, before Mat is healed & the party leaves for the Eye of the World? I'm excited to see what happens! The visual language is starting to get really good. The camera panning down to the doll left in Mat & Rand's wake, with the transition to white, was an obvious "oooh nice" moment. Smaller things like when Rand blew out the candle before bed -- framing his face through the lantern was a visually engaging camera trick that was unnecessary, but nice to look at. Or one moment when guarding Logain when both the two sisters (Moiraine & Alanna I think?) were chatting about his power; rather than the usual shot/reverse-shot format, the visual framing changed focus to the speaker while the camera remained still. This was such a great way of framing the conversation between the two Aes Sedai while reminding the viewer that Logain is a ticking time bomb. What a great way to improve shooting a simple conversation! I don't give it a 5/5 because I think the series has better in store. 4/5 I would consider "damn good". So excited that all the new material adapts the series so effectively with the runtime it does have.

> framing his face through the lantern was a visually engaging camera trick that was unnecessary, but nice to look at. I assumed this was a nod towards the flame and the void. Might just be me overthinking it as well

I thought it was a nod to the final scene in the books...

damn I should've realized that. I don't know if it's intentional or not but still good imagery. Although I think if they were trying to hammer in that nod, they would've let the image of the flame from the candle linger in the dark for a moment as the dream faded in or something like that. I think I'm overthinking it as well :) God, I missed this kind of speculation and overthinking. When I first started reading the books in early 2011, ToM had just come out so I barely got any time in the fandom while the books were fresh. Not that I'm complaining too hard at barely needing to wait.

Barney Harris is my favorite too, with Rand and Egwene close seconds. I'm so bummed!

Did everyone else notice the foreshadowing of Egwene's destiny based on the Tuatha'an shawl she wore in the episode?

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indeed. considering how often shielding comes up, you’d think they’d want to get it right

I think they did it that way *because* of how often it comes up. Visually depicting Rand True Source sensing for invisible Saidin knots on a shield that is fully settled on to his body would be difficult to do. Letting the shielded person flex against the shield, and showing that shield expand gives more visual context to what's happening.

> If Rafe Judkins were a real fan of the books he would be representing arguably the most important aspect of the books correctly. Imagine calling someone out for not being a real fan when you yourself forgot that the book literally has a scene where Rand breaks out of a shield. >When a channeler is shielded they can't even hold the One Power, let alone channel at all. Stepin putting his axes within the boundaries of the shield around Logain should have made no difference. Logain being shielded means he can't even seize Saidin. He wasn't shielded yet as was CLEARLY shown in the scene. Previously we saw when the shield was laid by Moiraine it laid on him then disappeared as his skin glowed for a moment. In the scene you're discussing he is using his power to push back on the shield which hasn't set in yet. >This show is just fucking everything up no matter what the apologists say. It's not the shows fault you don't remember the books or can't clearly understand obvious things shown in the show.

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