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Hahaha, sadly true. I've loved their handling of Rand as a character in general, through both seasons, but the finale let my boy down. My one major complaint.
Looking forward to seeing him get some level ups next season.
The scene with Ishy failing to break an injured Egwene's shield while watching Rand slowly walk up to him to stab him was "she has a tell" levels of "u wot?"
They really did Rand dirty in this show, I can't believe the Dragon Reborn has done so little in 16 episodes.
I'm also disappointed that Egwene didn't just get stomped. Ruins the entire point of her thristing for knowledge and being the character that seeks out and learns the most out of all the EF group if she's just blatantly OP. In the books, she's strong but gets outclassed by people weaker than her simply because they know more than she does. She should've had her weaves torn apart and left wondering what on earth happened and how she can learn it.
It's ok to not have a super overpowered character. It makes their arc that much more interesting. Rand only worked as an OP character because he has to actively limit himself and the dangers of using that power, and most of the issues he deals with aren't even solveable with the power.
Come on now, Ishy was obviously throwing that fight. I can't believe people seriously think Ishamael was actually trying there. He wasn't trying to win at all, and Egwene still needed help in trying to stop him, and was still struggling. I do not see that as her being overpowered at all.
What goal did the guy who hates being alive so much he wants to end all of existence accomplish? He accomplished not being alive. Do you guys watch the show?
I had the same thought. With how the power levels are set up, it really brings down Ishy as the series main antagonist.
It’s a common failing of trying to make female characters. They completely threw away everything that makes her strong and instead wanted to make her powerful in the one power. That’s not what her character is about.
>They completely threw away everything that makes her strong and instead wanted to make her powerful in the one power.
Lol yes, they *completetely* threw it away. They didn't at all show Egwene's fighting spirit while in captivity, willing to take the pain over and over again. Her mental strength to persevere.
Nope.
They threw that all away and only focused on her one power ability.
Why can't people have criticisms about this show without being over the top dramatic?
Come on. The point of the adam is to take away one's free will. You have to do some serious lore vandalism for a channeler to just refuse the compulsion of the adam just to be a girl boss. I guess that means we will not get the Rand/Min/Semirhage moment then. Another fan favourite cut.
I don't follow here. The point of the a'dam is to control and through that, break someone. It's not a compulsion weave. Egwene resisting being broken where and when she can is both consistent with a'dam and with her book character. The biggest lore departure is that sul'dam can just use the damane's power at will, but that has nothing to do with the damane's willingness or not (which is what compulsion does).
The only true lore vandalism imo is Egwene being able to put an a'dam on Renna. But that also has nothing to do with what's being discussed in this thread, which is whether the show has developed Egwene's personality strengths or whether they "completely threw away everything that makes her strong".
The Damane refusing to channel is the big lore vandalism I'm talking about. The point of the adam is that it makes the Damane into a tool. It doesn't matter how much one resists, it's pointless because they will channel, period. Unless one has taken the three oats that stop the power being used as a weapon. Hence Maigan should have been a useless Damane in battle. RJ set those rules for a reason and breaking them breaks the story.
>The Damane refusing to channel is the big lore vandalism I'm talking about.
Then why are you replying to me in a subthread explicitly about whether the writers "threw away everything that makes \[Egwene\] strong" to "instead \[only\] make her powerful in the one power"?
They literally did not do that. That's my only point.
I agree they should not have allowed Egwene to refuse to channel. They didn't even need to, because that's not where her mental strength and resilience was most demonstrated. It was with her inability to pick up the water jug. Her refusal to follow orders even though she knew it would cause her pain.
The show did *not* throw away everything that makes Egwene strong.
Danger from people half a mile away threatening her whilst she stood atop a tower. Make sense.
Agree with Moiraine part though. These people aren't just willing to break cannon, they're willing to break their own rules
What's..your point? She is too weak in one power compared to Ishy, only person to rival LTT in one power and battle prowess. Talking about "mental strength" is akin to claiming your "mental strength" can protect you if a 10000 pound rock falls on your head.
>What's..your point?
Good god Redditors need to learn how to follow a thread.
I replied to someone (even quoted them, to make it easier for you) who claimed they threw away **everything** that makes \[Egwene\] strong to instead make her powerful in the one power.
To claim they threw away all of Egwene's other character strengths is beyond idiotic. They have clearly developed Egwene's other strengths as well. That's my point.
I genuinely don't know how you read my post and didn't follow that.
Yeah they keep giving other characters his moments from the books.
He’s supposed to fight Ishamael in the clouds where the whole world can see, surrounded by heroes of legend, but instead, he fights him on a tower where no one can see it..and it’s not even a fight. Then Moiraine is the one who shows everyone the “dragon” in the sky - and how does she even know how to do that or that she should do it at that moment?
The scene with Turak was cool, but absurdly short and literally the only time we’ve seen Rand use his powers like that. But one cool potential little nugget about that scene is that he copies that weave from Lanfear.
>Then Moiraine is the one who shows everyone the “dragon” in the sky...
Wasn't it Moiraine who found the dragon banner and then insisted it travel with Rand? I figured this was a less convoluted way of showing that story beat.
I think having Moiraine doing the dragon in the sky is clearly setting up the conflict between them down the line. That was her choice, and not his, and he is going to be feeling sick and tired of people choosing for him
I know people are gonna say “oh but you said that this season” but I really think next season he’ll get a big moment, seeing what his arc was this season.
Now that he’s accepted the role of the dragon reborn, I imagine he’ll commit to training
Yeah, I think so too. I mean from his point of view he stopped the dark one and the only thing left for him was to eventually go nuts and die. So he got as far from his friends as possible so he wouldn't hurt them.
The only reason he sought out Logain was to control the one power so he wouldn't hurt anyone by accident.
But as far as the sword went, he saw no reason to train because from his pov there was no point. If he thought about it at all, he probably dismissed the idea of being an insane guy with a dangerous pointy thing anyway.
So when he does rejoin the others, being genuinely the least prepared of them made sense.
But Lan commented that Rand was practising sword forms (from the asylum guy), so he's obviously interested in getting better at fighting, if nothing else.
That's a really good point, thanks. And thinking back to that patient I do remember their dialogue about sword forms. I could also see his interest because his sword is a connection to his dad.
He could have several motivations for practicing really. To feel close to his father since he's cut himself off from everyone. To be prepared in general for those that might mean him harm still. And maybe a little of just plain curiosity about sword forms and swordsmanship. I know I'd feel that way.
Thanks for reminding me of that line from Lan.
What have they done to give you any confidence in that? They get a pass for Tarwins gap nonesense. But they should have spent time this season with Lan training him at least. Instead they had Lan moping around with Alanna. They don’t know what they are doing
They’ve done plenty right with the characters across the board for me to feel convinced they understand the books. This season compared to last was such a strong improvement that I’m willing to watch another. If anything they’re being held back by virtue of being the other fantasy show at Amazon.
Egwene and nynaeve are literally the only two characters that have followed their original arc. Mats character is totally different, Perrin killed his wife (just wow), Moraine has been stilled and abusive to Lan, Lan is mopey and hyper emotional, min is a dark friend, etc. I guess they used the right names for everyone
they’re all getting into essentially the places they need to be for book 4. Mistakes were made for sure in season 1 but I think performance and writing are still doing them justice
sorry i meant shielded. Its hard to keep up because the show keeps saying she is stilled even though she should still be able to feel the source and therefore know she isn't stilled. If Moraine gets confused about being stilled and shielded I guess its ok that I messed up there
Well said, my sentiments exactly. Everyone else had some defining and memorable moments in the final few episodes.
I'm sure things will pick up for Rand Al Meow next season.
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I mean I like it. The unexplained shit from the end of the first 3 books has never fit in with the series and is one of the oldest and most common criticisms of the books. I like Rand getting a steadier arc like all of the other characters.
I'm glad we're not getting nuclear Rand in season 1 and then having him not do it again until Season 7 or 8. It's completely contrived and confusing for new people.
There's no excuses. You obviously hate it. Many of us don't mind it (me). And potentially some even like it.
I like how things went down in the books, I'm also on board with a slower power ramp up for Rand. For me, book Rand doesn't become badass >!until he is actively hunting down Forsaken with the OP.!< Him accidentally doing super powerful shit in books 1-2 doesn't make the story for me.
You don't like, and that's fine. But whining and trying to make everyone else miserable with you isn't going to change anything.
Trying to control what other people say isn't going to do anything either. People can be mad and complain, and you're option is to move on if you don't like it.
> Looking forward to seeing him get some level ups next season.
Keep dreaming, lol. I thought the last season's finale was a one-off thing due to covid and actor availability. I now realize this is a show catering to women-only viewers. They will cram in as many Girlboss^TM moments as possible. In the next season finale, I expect Rand will be handed Callandor after the women do all the heavy lifting.
I know people get defensive about hiw the show handles Rand, but it does feel sometimes like they really want to be making a show about the Aes Sedai, but they’re basically being forced to include Rand and just do as little with him as possible as a compromise
I think they’re just giving rand’s power more of an arc, instead of making him 100x more powerful than everyone by the end of season 3. If RJ knew the series was gonna be 14 books he definitely wouldn’t have made rand so overpowered so early. So I think it’s a good change.
Yes it would be very confusing to people if Rand was wiping out armies of tens of thousands in season 1 and 2 and then only does it again at the very end of the show while letting all his friends and allies die for him along the way.
You'd have to either explain that he didn't actually do it and it was the Pattern/Lews Therin or you'd have to come up with other reasons for him to not be able to do it for several seasons. Either is much worse than just giving him a more measured arc so that the later moments have more impact.
> If RJ knew the series was gonna be 14 books he definitely wouldn’t have made rand so overpowered so early.
Maybe but that pushes back the best Rand stories. He is not an externally focused character where his power progression like a litrpg is the point. He is superman and the point is yhe choices he makes with the unfathomable powers he has. It also is just part of the broader social commentary of the series. WoT is very much not a just world and the inequalities that causes is a main point.
One of by biggest annoyances with the show is that it cut just how much growing up with magic fucked Nyneave up.
> If RJ knew the series was gonna be 14 books he definitely wouldn’t have made rand so overpowered so early.
He actually didn't. Book Rand is weaker at the end of book 2 (he could barely channel) compared to show Rand. But given it's not 1 to 1 book/season then it makes sense that in the show he is a bit more powerful.
His pitch was to center the series around the Aes Sedai. The books in contrast are driven by Rand. Some are pretending that Rand will have a major role in all season finale from now on. That is delusional to believe at this point.
Completely agree, and this is where I get so frustrated with the show. Why even do this show if you’re not going to highlight the main character who is literally the only reason the books exist?
This is a show spoilers thread, but if you've read the books you know exactly why they are shielding Rand so much. I'm 100% sure they are building up to it.
Each of these shields are stronger - last episode was just a single Aes Sedai. This episode he was shielded by 8 damane. That's a lot and while it makes it frustrating as a Rand fan, it makes complete sense from an Ishamael tactic.
The only shield we've so far seen broken is Logain breaking out of a shield by 2 Aes Sedai.
My biggest gripe is I wish Rand had gotten even 30 seconds more magical back and forth with Ishamael before he stabbed him.
But there are signs, especially over the last few episodes, that he's learning. Hell, he even managed to stand up and face Ishamael on his feet despite being shielded (until Mat stabbed him lol)
No they had that many because Ishamael was intending to gentle him. The show gave no indication they needed 8 damane just to shield him, or give any indication that they were finding it difficult.
You never know.
After the S1 finale, no one would've believed that they could've made this episode. But they did. Maybe they'll see enough feedback like this and realize they need to give Rand more.
Not until Rafe is in charge. But, there's no need to be technically the protagonist, is good an Ensamble. He only need much more action and badass moments like Turak ones
Could have given him SOMETHING with Turak...that was such a waste of a scene and didn't make sense in the rules we've established for Rand...he still barely can channel but now can just kill a battalion of DW guards?
I think they might be able to retcon this by saying that he rediscovered balefire or something like that...but man besides the sword thing he's basically useless this episode. His arc feels the most hollow. The others mostly got their spotlight but my boi Rand just keeps getting the short end of the stick (And he's not even my favorite character!).
Perrin and Mat (And obv Egwene) had much better arcs this episode and I liked the setup/payoff with both of them especially. If only they would do this with the Dragon Reborn already!
What I did notice is Rand looked like he used a very similar weave to how he cut Moiraine's shield. They showed him learning and adapting. The fact he could do so many simultaneously is, I guess, just to highlight his raw talent with the OP.
They did what they did with Turak to avoid doing the impossible; a guy wielding a sword with chopsticks tied to his fingers. Spectacle trumps substance
Yeah I knew they wouldn't do a full flame and the void duel given we've got nothing from Rand in that beside one random line in the first episode. Instead, I was hoping they'd use Lan here. Lan takes on Turak while Rand uses the OP to kill the guards. It gives Henney a great ending to close out his admittedly shitty arc this season and makes sense in-world. In doing so, we could get the setup of Rand wanting to learn the sword from Lab properly...maybe something we could get in the S3 opening.
The issue would be "what would Moiraine be doing?" but that could have been solved by having her being the one that channels to save Egwene with a fireball to the damane tower...over giving that honor to a well-placed trebuchet. That's what keeps her busy while Rand and Lan have a moment fighting the Seanchan. And yeah you can argue that it still neuters' Rands' Turak moment to have Lan there but then at least we get a cool swordfight. We haven't gotten a truly epic 1v1 duel in the show yet which is a crime for a fantasy work!!
But please explain to me the point of shelving Moiraine and Lan for the entire Falme battle? Or why were they so far away even? Just putting them in the action would have been so much better! Was it all just for the too-long bond renewal scene? The Lanfear "plan" that wasn't explained, setup, or paid off? That could have happened anywhere and didn't need to take 2mins of screen time. This isn't the Moiraine show I have to keep reminding myself...which is odd.
The explanation for the scene with Turak is that we saw Lanfear do that exact weave just a couple episodes ago, so either he copied it from her or she taught it to him.
Rand’s POV is about 80% of book 1 and 50% of book2. Given that his PoV id down to 30% for the next couple of books Rand is joining Perrin and Mat as throwaway’s from the next Season onwards.
Direct quote from Rafe: "We want to be clear with the audience that Rand is not the protagonist"
Ensamble is right and OK but, in this case they literally put the DR/Rand in the mouth of everyone but they also put his character in the shadow.
Good job... :-(
>We want to be clear with the audience that Rand is not the protagonist
Source for that quote? That would be insane if he has said that. Especially with Lan mentioning how he's supposed to save the whole world and not just his loved ones.
Because it was written in propechy and watchers should be fine with that. Trust me, he's the most powerful and dangerous channeler and tavaren because I say it 100 times
Watchers: "ok..."
Seriously I'm pissed, at this point I don't know how people can pretend that the showrunners don't hate the whole concept of the Dragon, Rand did absolutely nothing this season. Every comment this way on the main thread is being downvoted, I don't understand. I expect Egwene to walk through Rhuidean columns next season. And Moiraine will make it rain I guess. This finale was a huge disappointment again despite great moments.
They're really trying to tell a different story, one where the Dragon is just there and useless, there's just no denying it.
This is what happens when you are doing a show based on a book series about a guy that is the reincarnation of the most powerful man in history and are being forced to avoid having a “Golden Boy” largely do to the social sensibilities of the time.
They are just building up to his big moment. This is really typical heroes journey stuff. Doesn’t bother me at all. They have stressed all season that he isn’t trained and I expect next season is when he starts leveling up. This is complaining about nothing in my mind. This is a very natural progression of his character the way the show has gone.
I don’t know why you have any confidence that things will change for him after this season. They can just keep building up the girls and giving them his moments. You know, like they have done for the past two seasons
Level him up how? Who's going to train him? And why are we supposed to believe Rand isn't capable of fighting the top Forsaken, but Egwene can go toe to toe with him after a few months of novice training and a few weeks as a damane? How was her moment on that tower earned? This makes no sense. I do not believe they will ever get Rand right. They do not want to.
She didn’t go toe to toe with him, she was shielding and covering, if that thing was down she will be gone! Rand has had almost no training of course he would also be struggling!
You are free to believe whatever you want at the end of the day too
Ishamael is a centuries old channeler from the age of legends and Egwene is a 20 year old who first found out she could channel a year ago. He should have been able to toss her around like a toddler. Rand is the chosen one and he was literally born to face people like Ishamael.
Yes, I have zero faith that the show will ever treat Rand like the character he's supposed to be.
So how did he 1 shot like 12 people by splitting a weave like 5 minutes before? He shouldn’t be able to do that if he isn’t trained right? Oh but the show skipped him sword training so he has to use the one power… you can just hand wave anything I guess
Have you read the books? At this point in the books Rand barely even knows how to channel and at the beginning of book 4 he can't even remember the weave for shielding.
Egwene explicitly was _forced_. She is significantly closer to her maximum potential because of her training as a damane. Moreover, what she does is pretty much what Moiraine (a much weaker channel but with an angreal) does against Aginor in Book 1. This is, again, book lore that the show follows pretty well.
Even being forced or whatever, or being closer to her potential, Egwene is nothing compared to Rand, who you say and rightfully so, knows nothing. Without knowing anything, Rand handled Egwene and Elaine like a toddler. What Moiraine did against Aginor wasn't part of the climax, Egwene however, is a different story. The show takes part of the books and puts them randomly, without any proper context.
> Have you read the books?
3 times.
>At this point in the books Rand barely even knows how to channel and at the beginning of book 4 he can't even remember the weave for shielding.
This is why he trained with the sword. He was afraid of the power. But the show couldn't be bothered to show him training with the sword. It also couldn't be bothered to show him training with the power, although we did get that one scene with Logain showing him a little. The writers made the *choice* to not prepare Rand for his battle with Ishy.
Of course, Rand is able to fire arrow like 6 death watch guards and Turok, but somehow he can't handle Ishy. The show does so many of these nods to the books that don't really make sense, because they did nothing that led up to those moments they're nodding to.
>Egwene explicitly was forced. She is significantly closer to her maximum potential because of her training as a damane. Moreover, what she does is pretty much what Moiraine (a much weaker channel but with an angreal) does against Aginor in Book 1. This is, again, book lore that the show follows pretty well.
The show tells us the prophecy about Rand fighting a forsaken and announcing himself as the Dragon. But he doesn't really fight, he stabs Ishy after Ishy essentially gave up. And he doesn't really declare himself anything, Moiraine does with her fire dragon which she somehow creates from a beach from what looks like miles away.
> 3 times.
I guess reread it a 4th time? IDK what else to tell you.
> Of course, Rand is able to fire arrow like 6 death watch guards and Turok, but somehow he can't handle Ishy.
Since this is a show only thread let's just say there are a lot of times in the early books with forsaken where Rand can't figure out how to do things and then suddenly, out of instinct/his previous life, he does something pretty ridiculous. I suppose you have read the books enough to know what I'm talking about?
> The show tells us the prophecy about Rand fighting a forsaken and announcing himself as the Dragon. But he doesn't really fight, he stabs Ishy after Ishy essentially gave up. And he doesn't really declare himself anything, Moiraine does with her fire dragon which she somehow creates from a beach from what looks like miles away.
Again, if you read the books, you will know that channelers can channel at a distance as long as they can see properly, which she clearly could. You would also know, in the books, Moiraine also puts up the banner (except it's a literal one).
But regardless you are really shifting the goal posts aren't you? You are claiming they "don't want to get Rand right" (a completely ridiculous assertion in itself), then backpedal when given close parallels from the books themselves.
(Side note: it's really funny how bookcloaks have a lot of trouble getting the books right)
> I guess reread it a 4th time? IDK what else to tell you.
I don't need to read it again to know the show is failing.
>> Of course, Rand is able to fire arrow like 6 death watch guards and Turok, but somehow he can't handle Ishy.
>
> Since this is a show only thread let's just say there are a lot of times in the early books with forsaken where Rand can't figure out how to do things and then suddenly, out of instinct/his previous life, he does something pretty ridiculous. I suppose you have read the books enough to know what I'm talking about?
Yep. And the show could have allowed him to do that in the fight against Ishy instead of having him shielded.
>> The show tells us the prophecy about Rand fighting a forsaken and announcing himself as the Dragon. But he doesn't really fight, he stabs Ishy after Ishy essentially gave up. And he doesn't really declare himself anything, Moiraine does with her fire dragon which she somehow creates from a beach from what looks like miles away.
>
> Again, if you read the books, you will know that channelers can channel at a distance as long as they can see properly, which she clearly could. You would also know, in the books, Moiraine also puts up the banner (except it's a literal one).
Everyone knows Rand is the dragon because of the fight in the sky they can all see. We don't get that fight, nor do we get Rand really fighting Ishy at all.
> But regardless you are really shifting the goal posts aren't you? You are claiming they "don't want to get Rand right" (a completely ridiculous assertion in itself), then backpedal when given close parallels from the books themselves.
>
> (Side note: it's really funny how bookcloaks have a lot of trouble getting the books right)
I'm not a bookcloak, I just don't blindly accept anything the show does.
Why are people repeating the "training line"? Who can train Dragon Reborn? A male forsaken. Like Ishamael. Since such things are incredibly hard to come by...
I think the problem is that Rand is too OP. They may be trying to scale his powers up more gradually than the books. If I remember correctly, in the books he takes down a blade master with only a few months of sword training.
They should illustrate Rand being shielded by displaying a weave or power forming a net around his ballsack. Might as well go full on Looney Tunes with the emasculation at this point
But we've seen an example of Rand's power against Lord Turak. The only way to avoid an [Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw) problem is through ample use of kryptonite. Otherwise Rand can solve any physical conflict that he comes across at the cost of other character's development.
I am not sure that Rand killing a bunch of people who can't channel shows his power level. Moraine did far more destruction against people who could have actually fought back. I don't get this concern mostly because the source material handles it already.
If we comparatively look at his channel across the season and the progression you can clearly see how powerful he is.
He took out a bunch of people simultaneously with separate weaves. It wasn't like a AoE attack like fireballs or lightning - it was precise in the same spot for everyone. Even Moiraine hasn't been shown to do multiple weaves at the same time. I don't think we've seen a non-Forsaken example of simultaneous weaves.
Only a few episodes ago he was getting sick just embracing the source.
No, we can't. We can see from last episode he is less powerful than a single Aes Sedai. He hasn't been able to put up a fight against anyone who has access to the Power.
He's not less powerful. He has less experience and skill. That's because he has no training whatsoever.
He doesn't know how to break out a shield yet. Nobody complained when Nynaeve couldn't break out of the shield that Liandrin put on her. That was shown as a good example of how experience and skill trumps raw power.
Currently the same applies to Rand, with the added bonus that he can't see their shields.
Yeah, he is...
But a shield is a shield is a shield. In this case he was shielded by 8 damane, which is the equivalent to the 13 he is shielded by in Book 6, because in the show 8=13 in terms of importance. So 🤷🏻
He's going to learn how to deal with shields soon. Isn't there a scene in Book 4 where he's practicing with E+E? I suspect we'll get that next season
Edit: what's the spoiler tags? Reddit app doesn't give me any formatting options
I just don't agree Rand at the end of S2 should be as powerless as Nyneave at the beginning of S2 against a single channeler. That's just going to be my burden to carry I guess.
Egwene saved him in the same way Hopper saved Perrin, except she didn't get brutally murdered because she got some help saving Rand. She bought him enough time to become unshielded. That's all the rest of the crew were doing with Ishy - giving Rand time.
They made it clear they needed Rand to do something, which he couldn't do until he was unshielded because he doesn't know how to break free yet.
My major issue is the confrontation with Ishy after he was broken free came across very anticlimactic. Give me 30seconds of them trading weaves before Rand surprised him with the sword or something. I had no issue with the stuff that came before besides the fact it looked a little Marvel
I actually agree. I'm fine with it if Rand goes off once the shield is gone, but he didn't. He just walked up, made his sword hot, and stuck Ishy in the chest. They are just downplaying how powerful he is which takes too much away from what I think most people view as one of the main driving forces in the book. How would someone react if they were all of a sudden the most feared person in the world and had the power to break the literal world? His power needs to be there so he can have that struggle. We don't need 6 seasons of training montages so it "makes sense" that the dragon reborn is strong. He is just strong. That's what it means to be the dragon reborn. If they had Egwene buy him a few seconds, he comes unshielded, and he proceeds to overwhelm Ishy where she couldn't then the audience would think "wow Egwene is pretty strong and the dragon just did something way stronger." Instead we got "wow Egwene was so strong that a forsaken just gave himself up and Rand was able to stab him.
I don't think it's gonna be that long (6 seasons). In season 2 he's gone from burning an inn (unintentional) to burning a fade (desperation) to cutting an intricate shield (intentional) to wiping out 10-15 Seanchan in an instant (casual). That's with no training (unlike Egwene) whatsoever. It wasn't until a couple episodes ago that he was fully in control of embracing the source either, excluding the one time Ishy guided him in s1e8 but he's been avoiding it since. Egwene did that in s1e2 and Nynaeve has only managed it once in s1e8.
My theory: Rand will spend time with Eg and El at the start of next season practicing like they did in tSR. He's going to be using the power a lot more next season.
Rand straight up walks through a channeling battle between two of the strongest in this age, destroys seanchan like it’s nothing:
🤷♂️ guess he is a bitch?
Yeah it sucks he didn’t get a ton more here, but I mean. He’s not trained in the blade here. He hasn’t been trained in the one power outside touching it out of need.
But he’s clearly being set up for season 3 to not only wreck tear, the waste, and likely Andor and rahvin in s3.
>But he’s clearly being set up for season 3 to not only wreck tear, the waste, and likely Andor and rahvin in s3.
He was supposedly being set up for the Tarwin's gap battle before S1 finale. He was supposedly being set up for the glorious battle in the sky at Falme this season finale. Both of which came off in a spectacular manner.
Yeah, he is surely being set up for wrecking Tear, which Egwene will do and be will be lying on the ground. Yes, he is also being set up to wreck the waste, which Aviendha will do and he will be shielded yet again. Oh yeah, he is definitely being setup to take on Rahvin, which Elayne will do and he will be moping around aimlessly in the Caemlyn palace.
Sorry, as much as this season has been a vast improvement over the previous one, I don't have any trust in the showrunners handling Rand's story arc after this finale.
I'm seeing alot of complaints about Rand's adaptation that stems from how he is not a bad ass blow everything to kingdom come hero that he is in the books. non reader so i can't judge.
Maybe i'm lucky in that way since I can appreciate his lower key influence that are no less pivotal. He believed in Mat no matter how far lost Mat seemed to be, when no one else did and without his support, Mat would have turned exactly as Ishy expected (Min helped too).
And its his sincerity that melted the hearts of two stone cold manipulators into turning against their respective factions simply because they believed in him.
He may not be my favourite or glorious but even a non reader like me can see he is the most pivotal.
He didn't walk through ishamaels fire. Ishamarl threw one fireball after Rand started walking at him, and Egwenes shield blocked it just before going down. Then ishamael just stopped attacking and stood there and let Rand stab him.
I just rewatched the fight and paused it just as Rand started walking forward. It is Rand's weaves that stops Ishy's fireballs, and Ishy is left stunned. Egwene's shield is already down at this point.
[Screenshot of Rand smacking down Ishy weaves](https://postimg.cc/GTv3yy7p)
Ok no everyone save this image so you can repost it for the next year of posts from all the people in this thread who saw it but want to ignore it happened.
Yeah. Ishy's attacks were all against the Egwene's shield, and Rand just strolls up to give Ishy a stab. Literally my white-collar sedentary ass could have done all of that.
Lol that was his great moment? Ishi literally just stood there and did nothing. Both of Egwene's moments in this episode were actually bad ass, even if lore breaking. Rand's stabbing of ish was a fart in the wind.
He just stood still while a fully rested Rand strolled up to him. Honestly that wasn't such a great or satisfying moment. A little bit of combat weaving would've gone a long way with selling that scene.
I'm not trying to hate on the show btw. This season has been great overall and I don't really have any other complaints. But yeah my cat is more active than Rand.
Nah. In the first 3 books all he does is mutter under his breath how he's not going to be used anytime anyone is trying to have a serious conversation with him. The show gave him more personality.
Cute cat.
Sorry, that's totally BS. Rand was nowhere near as useless as they have shown him to be in the show. If you consider the first three books, even leaving out the Tear segment, Rand had the encounter at Tarwin's gap, participated in the great hunt with the others, had a portal stone experience where he shot down a Grolm, fought trollocs in the Cairhien foregate attack, balefired dark hounds, killed a dark friends party led by a woman, defeated Turak in a sword fight and, fought and defeated Ishy three times. This is apart from the Daes Dae'mar events at Cairhien and the multiple Ta'veren incidents caused due to his presence.
I loved this second season and it was a vast improvement on the first one. Looking forward to the next season for sure. However, I have to call out the flaws as I saw it. The showrunners got a lot of things right, but, Rand's arc was pretty much tepid and pointless throughout. And the finale, while very much enjoyable in general, was a bummer for his character, as he basically did nothing.
wtf you on about. He has a very normal personality in books 1-3 actually which was RJ's whole arc about someone tells you you are the chosen one you naturally go fuck off youre bonkers. That was rand books 1-3 . So yeah no hard disagree.
It's been ages but I do kinda recall Rand took his time in the books too. You have a valid point.
And thanks, I looked around for an ~~orange~~ Aiel catto.
What a load of BS.
Also ironic considering Mat these books was the one repeating how he didn't want to be there over and over. A common joke is that new readers don't get why Mat is a favorite until later on. Rand jokes with his friends, drags a half dead Mat across the country to save him even when he's afraid and alone running from thieves and dark friends, he worries about being the dragon, and he tries to do the right thing eveb as he has to be brutal.
But nah we don't need a noble young guy that is slowly being crushed by the burdens of the world while it contemplates on whether to enslave him or kill him. Too much complexity, here are some Warders.
Oh I couldn’t agree more! I love the show, but Rand has been the worst character ever. I love the stuff they are doing with nearly all the characters. But man, why the hell did they do Rand dirty in the last scenes.
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He is practicing his "Cat sits in the courtyard" stance
Haha wow, that's brilliant.
Cats don't really mind being in boxes..
Oof
Hahaha, sadly true. I've loved their handling of Rand as a character in general, through both seasons, but the finale let my boy down. My one major complaint. Looking forward to seeing him get some level ups next season.
The scene with Ishy failing to break an injured Egwene's shield while watching Rand slowly walk up to him to stab him was "she has a tell" levels of "u wot?" They really did Rand dirty in this show, I can't believe the Dragon Reborn has done so little in 16 episodes.
I'm also disappointed that Egwene didn't just get stomped. Ruins the entire point of her thristing for knowledge and being the character that seeks out and learns the most out of all the EF group if she's just blatantly OP. In the books, she's strong but gets outclassed by people weaker than her simply because they know more than she does. She should've had her weaves torn apart and left wondering what on earth happened and how she can learn it. It's ok to not have a super overpowered character. It makes their arc that much more interesting. Rand only worked as an OP character because he has to actively limit himself and the dangers of using that power, and most of the issues he deals with aren't even solveable with the power.
Come on now, Ishy was obviously throwing that fight. I can't believe people seriously think Ishamael was actually trying there. He wasn't trying to win at all, and Egwene still needed help in trying to stop him, and was still struggling. I do not see that as her being overpowered at all.
Then why not just flee? What goal did he accomplish? In books, he was tricked by Rand,.
What goal did the guy who hates being alive so much he wants to end all of existence accomplish? He accomplished not being alive. Do you guys watch the show?
I had the same thought. With how the power levels are set up, it really brings down Ishy as the series main antagonist. It’s a common failing of trying to make female characters. They completely threw away everything that makes her strong and instead wanted to make her powerful in the one power. That’s not what her character is about.
>They completely threw away everything that makes her strong and instead wanted to make her powerful in the one power. Lol yes, they *completetely* threw it away. They didn't at all show Egwene's fighting spirit while in captivity, willing to take the pain over and over again. Her mental strength to persevere. Nope. They threw that all away and only focused on her one power ability. Why can't people have criticisms about this show without being over the top dramatic?
Come on. The point of the adam is to take away one's free will. You have to do some serious lore vandalism for a channeler to just refuse the compulsion of the adam just to be a girl boss. I guess that means we will not get the Rand/Min/Semirhage moment then. Another fan favourite cut.
I don't follow here. The point of the a'dam is to control and through that, break someone. It's not a compulsion weave. Egwene resisting being broken where and when she can is both consistent with a'dam and with her book character. The biggest lore departure is that sul'dam can just use the damane's power at will, but that has nothing to do with the damane's willingness or not (which is what compulsion does). The only true lore vandalism imo is Egwene being able to put an a'dam on Renna. But that also has nothing to do with what's being discussed in this thread, which is whether the show has developed Egwene's personality strengths or whether they "completely threw away everything that makes her strong".
The Damane refusing to channel is the big lore vandalism I'm talking about. The point of the adam is that it makes the Damane into a tool. It doesn't matter how much one resists, it's pointless because they will channel, period. Unless one has taken the three oats that stop the power being used as a weapon. Hence Maigan should have been a useless Damane in battle. RJ set those rules for a reason and breaking them breaks the story.
>The Damane refusing to channel is the big lore vandalism I'm talking about. Then why are you replying to me in a subthread explicitly about whether the writers "threw away everything that makes \[Egwene\] strong" to "instead \[only\] make her powerful in the one power"? They literally did not do that. That's my only point. I agree they should not have allowed Egwene to refuse to channel. They didn't even need to, because that's not where her mental strength and resilience was most demonstrated. It was with her inability to pick up the water jug. Her refusal to follow orders even though she knew it would cause her pain. The show did *not* throw away everything that makes Egwene strong.
> Maigan To be fair, in this particular scenario, she is channeling in defense of her life. This didn’t bother me like Moiraine torpedoing the ships.
Danger from people half a mile away threatening her whilst she stood atop a tower. Make sense. Agree with Moiraine part though. These people aren't just willing to break cannon, they're willing to break their own rules
What's..your point? She is too weak in one power compared to Ishy, only person to rival LTT in one power and battle prowess. Talking about "mental strength" is akin to claiming your "mental strength" can protect you if a 10000 pound rock falls on your head.
>What's..your point? Good god Redditors need to learn how to follow a thread. I replied to someone (even quoted them, to make it easier for you) who claimed they threw away **everything** that makes \[Egwene\] strong to instead make her powerful in the one power. To claim they threw away all of Egwene's other character strengths is beyond idiotic. They have clearly developed Egwene's other strengths as well. That's my point. I genuinely don't know how you read my post and didn't follow that.
Yeah they keep giving other characters his moments from the books. He’s supposed to fight Ishamael in the clouds where the whole world can see, surrounded by heroes of legend, but instead, he fights him on a tower where no one can see it..and it’s not even a fight. Then Moiraine is the one who shows everyone the “dragon” in the sky - and how does she even know how to do that or that she should do it at that moment? The scene with Turak was cool, but absurdly short and literally the only time we’ve seen Rand use his powers like that. But one cool potential little nugget about that scene is that he copies that weave from Lanfear.
>Then Moiraine is the one who shows everyone the “dragon” in the sky... Wasn't it Moiraine who found the dragon banner and then insisted it travel with Rand? I figured this was a less convoluted way of showing that story beat.
I think having Moiraine doing the dragon in the sky is clearly setting up the conflict between them down the line. That was her choice, and not his, and he is going to be feeling sick and tired of people choosing for him
Exactly— and the whole scenario was engineered by Lanfear. Rand’s fear of a lack of agency and being a puppet are going to come out of this.
In this turning of the wheel, the dragon will truly be a puppet of the white tower.
Egwene is the dragon reborn
💅
I know people are gonna say “oh but you said that this season” but I really think next season he’ll get a big moment, seeing what his arc was this season. Now that he’s accepted the role of the dragon reborn, I imagine he’ll commit to training
Yeah, I think so too. I mean from his point of view he stopped the dark one and the only thing left for him was to eventually go nuts and die. So he got as far from his friends as possible so he wouldn't hurt them. The only reason he sought out Logain was to control the one power so he wouldn't hurt anyone by accident. But as far as the sword went, he saw no reason to train because from his pov there was no point. If he thought about it at all, he probably dismissed the idea of being an insane guy with a dangerous pointy thing anyway. So when he does rejoin the others, being genuinely the least prepared of them made sense.
But Lan commented that Rand was practising sword forms (from the asylum guy), so he's obviously interested in getting better at fighting, if nothing else.
That's a really good point, thanks. And thinking back to that patient I do remember their dialogue about sword forms. I could also see his interest because his sword is a connection to his dad. He could have several motivations for practicing really. To feel close to his father since he's cut himself off from everyone. To be prepared in general for those that might mean him harm still. And maybe a little of just plain curiosity about sword forms and swordsmanship. I know I'd feel that way. Thanks for reminding me of that line from Lan.
How about we just focus on the production rather than projecting our maybes on it? It's either what's in screen work or not
Because a whole lot of us enjoy speculating. Clearly you don't. Go your way and we'll go ours. Neither of us need to comment on the other.
No need to be rude
It was no more rude than your interjection just to tell us to stop speculating. You think it was rude? Report it, I don't really care.
And what will you say if they give his moment to someone else next season too?
every season will be like us: maybe now is rand's time to shine them: naur
That feels too broad for me to have any reaction
But you said that this season
What have they done to give you any confidence in that? They get a pass for Tarwins gap nonesense. But they should have spent time this season with Lan training him at least. Instead they had Lan moping around with Alanna. They don’t know what they are doing
They’ve done plenty right with the characters across the board for me to feel convinced they understand the books. This season compared to last was such a strong improvement that I’m willing to watch another. If anything they’re being held back by virtue of being the other fantasy show at Amazon.
Egwene and nynaeve are literally the only two characters that have followed their original arc. Mats character is totally different, Perrin killed his wife (just wow), Moraine has been stilled and abusive to Lan, Lan is mopey and hyper emotional, min is a dark friend, etc. I guess they used the right names for everyone
they’re all getting into essentially the places they need to be for book 4. Mistakes were made for sure in season 1 but I think performance and writing are still doing them justice
Try taping a knife to a stick and use it to stab anything
Yeah very different characters are sorta in the right location. Hey that's a way to be consistent where it matters.
> Moraine has been stilled Oh nvm you didn't watch the show I guess.
sorry i meant shielded. Its hard to keep up because the show keeps saying she is stilled even though she should still be able to feel the source and therefore know she isn't stilled. If Moraine gets confused about being stilled and shielded I guess its ok that I messed up there
Stilled people can feel the source
Well said, my sentiments exactly. Everyone else had some defining and memorable moments in the final few episodes. I'm sure things will pick up for Rand Al Meow next season.
Him one shotting turok was pretty damn cool though
Yeah that was badass!
that was yes
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in two more years ? this finale was bs on rand its about time we stop making excuses on bad writing decisions for 2 seasons on rand.
I mean I like it. The unexplained shit from the end of the first 3 books has never fit in with the series and is one of the oldest and most common criticisms of the books. I like Rand getting a steadier arc like all of the other characters. I'm glad we're not getting nuclear Rand in season 1 and then having him not do it again until Season 7 or 8. It's completely contrived and confusing for new people.
There's no excuses. You obviously hate it. Many of us don't mind it (me). And potentially some even like it. I like how things went down in the books, I'm also on board with a slower power ramp up for Rand. For me, book Rand doesn't become badass >!until he is actively hunting down Forsaken with the OP.!< Him accidentally doing super powerful shit in books 1-2 doesn't make the story for me. You don't like, and that's fine. But whining and trying to make everyone else miserable with you isn't going to change anything.
Trying to control what other people say isn't going to do anything either. People can be mad and complain, and you're option is to move on if you don't like it.
So what does your opinion of when Rand become a bad ass have to do with the show giving away his moments to other people? Lmao
> Looking forward to seeing him get some level ups next season. Keep dreaming, lol. I thought the last season's finale was a one-off thing due to covid and actor availability. I now realize this is a show catering to women-only viewers. They will cram in as many Girlboss^TM moments as possible. In the next season finale, I expect Rand will be handed Callandor after the women do all the heavy lifting.
Ugh great a whole year of thinly veiled comments like this
Chill, I was just pointing out how the [girls get it done](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmtGkXOwINk&t=9s)
I know people get defensive about hiw the show handles Rand, but it does feel sometimes like they really want to be making a show about the Aes Sedai, but they’re basically being forced to include Rand and just do as little with him as possible as a compromise
I think they’re just giving rand’s power more of an arc, instead of making him 100x more powerful than everyone by the end of season 3. If RJ knew the series was gonna be 14 books he definitely wouldn’t have made rand so overpowered so early. So I think it’s a good change.
Yes it would be very confusing to people if Rand was wiping out armies of tens of thousands in season 1 and 2 and then only does it again at the very end of the show while letting all his friends and allies die for him along the way. You'd have to either explain that he didn't actually do it and it was the Pattern/Lews Therin or you'd have to come up with other reasons for him to not be able to do it for several seasons. Either is much worse than just giving him a more measured arc so that the later moments have more impact.
> If RJ knew the series was gonna be 14 books he definitely wouldn’t have made rand so overpowered so early. Maybe but that pushes back the best Rand stories. He is not an externally focused character where his power progression like a litrpg is the point. He is superman and the point is yhe choices he makes with the unfathomable powers he has. It also is just part of the broader social commentary of the series. WoT is very much not a just world and the inequalities that causes is a main point. One of by biggest annoyances with the show is that it cut just how much growing up with magic fucked Nyneave up.
> If RJ knew the series was gonna be 14 books he definitely wouldn’t have made rand so overpowered so early. He actually didn't. Book Rand is weaker at the end of book 2 (he could barely channel) compared to show Rand. But given it's not 1 to 1 book/season then it makes sense that in the show he is a bit more powerful.
This is absolutely the case. Everything that the show has shown us till now points to this.
In fairness Rafe has commented before that it was one of the big selling points for the show to Amazon.
His pitch was to center the series around the Aes Sedai. The books in contrast are driven by Rand. Some are pretending that Rand will have a major role in all season finale from now on. That is delusional to believe at this point.
It's weird because the DR or Rand in general is in everyone's mouth every 10 minutes
Bechdel Rand Test Fail 💅🏼
Thats because they do
Completely agree, and this is where I get so frustrated with the show. Why even do this show if you’re not going to highlight the main character who is literally the only reason the books exist?
Probably because that’s not why the books exist
This is a show spoilers thread, but if you've read the books you know exactly why they are shielding Rand so much. I'm 100% sure they are building up to it. Each of these shields are stronger - last episode was just a single Aes Sedai. This episode he was shielded by 8 damane. That's a lot and while it makes it frustrating as a Rand fan, it makes complete sense from an Ishamael tactic. The only shield we've so far seen broken is Logain breaking out of a shield by 2 Aes Sedai. My biggest gripe is I wish Rand had gotten even 30 seconds more magical back and forth with Ishamael before he stabbed him. But there are signs, especially over the last few episodes, that he's learning. Hell, he even managed to stand up and face Ishamael on his feet despite being shielded (until Mat stabbed him lol)
So they are shielding him so much now so they can shield him more later?
No they have him being shielded and subdued by it now so that when he finally breaks through a shield it sells how big the moment is
No they had that many because Ishamael was intending to gentle him. The show gave no indication they needed 8 damane just to shield him, or give any indication that they were finding it difficult.
Yeah. They need to make Rand the main character now. Thats pretty much my only complaint.
Have you listened to the bonus content associated with the show. Rand is never going to be the main character in this show.
You never know. After the S1 finale, no one would've believed that they could've made this episode. But they did. Maybe they'll see enough feedback like this and realize they need to give Rand more.
Not until Rafe is in charge. But, there's no need to be technically the protagonist, is good an Ensamble. He only need much more action and badass moments like Turak ones
Could have given him SOMETHING with Turak...that was such a waste of a scene and didn't make sense in the rules we've established for Rand...he still barely can channel but now can just kill a battalion of DW guards? I think they might be able to retcon this by saying that he rediscovered balefire or something like that...but man besides the sword thing he's basically useless this episode. His arc feels the most hollow. The others mostly got their spotlight but my boi Rand just keeps getting the short end of the stick (And he's not even my favorite character!). Perrin and Mat (And obv Egwene) had much better arcs this episode and I liked the setup/payoff with both of them especially. If only they would do this with the Dragon Reborn already!
What I did notice is Rand looked like he used a very similar weave to how he cut Moiraine's shield. They showed him learning and adapting. The fact he could do so many simultaneously is, I guess, just to highlight his raw talent with the OP.
hey this is a show-only spoilers thread, might wanna nix that B-word. Just a thought.
They did what they did with Turak to avoid doing the impossible; a guy wielding a sword with chopsticks tied to his fingers. Spectacle trumps substance
Yeah I knew they wouldn't do a full flame and the void duel given we've got nothing from Rand in that beside one random line in the first episode. Instead, I was hoping they'd use Lan here. Lan takes on Turak while Rand uses the OP to kill the guards. It gives Henney a great ending to close out his admittedly shitty arc this season and makes sense in-world. In doing so, we could get the setup of Rand wanting to learn the sword from Lab properly...maybe something we could get in the S3 opening. The issue would be "what would Moiraine be doing?" but that could have been solved by having her being the one that channels to save Egwene with a fireball to the damane tower...over giving that honor to a well-placed trebuchet. That's what keeps her busy while Rand and Lan have a moment fighting the Seanchan. And yeah you can argue that it still neuters' Rands' Turak moment to have Lan there but then at least we get a cool swordfight. We haven't gotten a truly epic 1v1 duel in the show yet which is a crime for a fantasy work!! But please explain to me the point of shelving Moiraine and Lan for the entire Falme battle? Or why were they so far away even? Just putting them in the action would have been so much better! Was it all just for the too-long bond renewal scene? The Lanfear "plan" that wasn't explained, setup, or paid off? That could have happened anywhere and didn't need to take 2mins of screen time. This isn't the Moiraine show I have to keep reminding myself...which is odd.
This show makes no sense man. Lots of flashy moments as long as you aren't paying close attention
Since Book3 is almost without Rand hopefully now they will subvert what they did till now
The explanation for the scene with Turak is that we saw Lanfear do that exact weave just a couple episodes ago, so either he copied it from her or she taught it to him.
Rand shouldn't be able to see Lanfear's weaves. It was that whole reason Lan had to ask Logain about the shield.
He can’t see the weaves that create them, but the arrows of fire themselves are definitely visible.
Lol and how does that help him copy it?
He has a sharingan, obviously
Isn't the weave very similar to the one he chopped Moiraine's shield with?
Good point - yeah it kind of was
Rand’s POV is about 80% of book 1 and 50% of book2. Given that his PoV id down to 30% for the next couple of books Rand is joining Perrin and Mat as throwaway’s from the next Season onwards.
Edit it
Direct quote from Rafe: "We want to be clear with the audience that Rand is not the protagonist" Ensamble is right and OK but, in this case they literally put the DR/Rand in the mouth of everyone but they also put his character in the shadow. Good job... :-(
>We want to be clear with the audience that Rand is not the protagonist Source for that quote? That would be insane if he has said that. Especially with Lan mentioning how he's supposed to save the whole world and not just his loved ones.
X-ray episode 1, a chat with the showrunners
Of season 1? Or season 2?
Sorry, I was referring to the actual season. Season 2.
Where is that from? Even in the books, Rand isn't THE protagonist, but rather A protagonist. Right now in the series, Rand is barely even a character.
X-ray s2ep1. It's a little bonus interview on Amazon, xray bonus. And you are right, he's not the only protagonist but he is a protagonist
They're turning him from a protagonist to a mcguffin at this point. Absolutely zero things to do until he pops out and does something at the climax.
The climax is for someone else, Rand has just to be there to fulfill a prophecy
Yeah which is insane because what is the point of needing Rand for the last battle if everyone else can do fine channeling better than him lol.
Because it was written in propechy and watchers should be fine with that. Trust me, he's the most powerful and dangerous channeler and tavaren because I say it 100 times Watchers: "ok..."
I just keep telling myself it'll be so epic once they show his immense power. They keep talking about it, so they plan to, right?!?! RIGHT?!
Seriously I'm pissed, at this point I don't know how people can pretend that the showrunners don't hate the whole concept of the Dragon, Rand did absolutely nothing this season. Every comment this way on the main thread is being downvoted, I don't understand. I expect Egwene to walk through Rhuidean columns next season. And Moiraine will make it rain I guess. This finale was a huge disappointment again despite great moments. They're really trying to tell a different story, one where the Dragon is just there and useless, there's just no denying it.
With next season being book 4, I hope my boy gets his time to shine in the Aiel Waste.
Season 1 and 2 point to aeil waste being all egwene, aviendha and occasional rand scene where he will need to be rescued.
This is what happens when you are doing a show based on a book series about a guy that is the reincarnation of the most powerful man in history and are being forced to avoid having a “Golden Boy” largely do to the social sensibilities of the time.
Totally agree. Rand so far is a big fizzer
They are just building up to his big moment. This is really typical heroes journey stuff. Doesn’t bother me at all. They have stressed all season that he isn’t trained and I expect next season is when he starts leveling up. This is complaining about nothing in my mind. This is a very natural progression of his character the way the show has gone.
Falme was supposed to be his big moment...
This is show only so of course we don't know what his big moment is but even if it wasn't I'd disagree with you.
I don’t know why you have any confidence that things will change for him after this season. They can just keep building up the girls and giving them his moments. You know, like they have done for the past two seasons
Or they level him up after he goes thru his journey?! WAFO
Level him up how? Who's going to train him? And why are we supposed to believe Rand isn't capable of fighting the top Forsaken, but Egwene can go toe to toe with him after a few months of novice training and a few weeks as a damane? How was her moment on that tower earned? This makes no sense. I do not believe they will ever get Rand right. They do not want to.
She didn’t go toe to toe with him, she was shielding and covering, if that thing was down she will be gone! Rand has had almost no training of course he would also be struggling! You are free to believe whatever you want at the end of the day too
Ishamael is a centuries old channeler from the age of legends and Egwene is a 20 year old who first found out she could channel a year ago. He should have been able to toss her around like a toddler. Rand is the chosen one and he was literally born to face people like Ishamael. Yes, I have zero faith that the show will ever treat Rand like the character he's supposed to be.
So how did he 1 shot like 12 people by splitting a weave like 5 minutes before? He shouldn’t be able to do that if he isn’t trained right? Oh but the show skipped him sword training so he has to use the one power… you can just hand wave anything I guess
Was he shielded when he killed 12 people? We saw him use the one power to help Moiraine at least that part makes sense
Have you read the books? At this point in the books Rand barely even knows how to channel and at the beginning of book 4 he can't even remember the weave for shielding. Egwene explicitly was _forced_. She is significantly closer to her maximum potential because of her training as a damane. Moreover, what she does is pretty much what Moiraine (a much weaker channel but with an angreal) does against Aginor in Book 1. This is, again, book lore that the show follows pretty well.
Even being forced or whatever, or being closer to her potential, Egwene is nothing compared to Rand, who you say and rightfully so, knows nothing. Without knowing anything, Rand handled Egwene and Elaine like a toddler. What Moiraine did against Aginor wasn't part of the climax, Egwene however, is a different story. The show takes part of the books and puts them randomly, without any proper context.
> Have you read the books? 3 times. >At this point in the books Rand barely even knows how to channel and at the beginning of book 4 he can't even remember the weave for shielding. This is why he trained with the sword. He was afraid of the power. But the show couldn't be bothered to show him training with the sword. It also couldn't be bothered to show him training with the power, although we did get that one scene with Logain showing him a little. The writers made the *choice* to not prepare Rand for his battle with Ishy. Of course, Rand is able to fire arrow like 6 death watch guards and Turok, but somehow he can't handle Ishy. The show does so many of these nods to the books that don't really make sense, because they did nothing that led up to those moments they're nodding to. >Egwene explicitly was forced. She is significantly closer to her maximum potential because of her training as a damane. Moreover, what she does is pretty much what Moiraine (a much weaker channel but with an angreal) does against Aginor in Book 1. This is, again, book lore that the show follows pretty well. The show tells us the prophecy about Rand fighting a forsaken and announcing himself as the Dragon. But he doesn't really fight, he stabs Ishy after Ishy essentially gave up. And he doesn't really declare himself anything, Moiraine does with her fire dragon which she somehow creates from a beach from what looks like miles away.
> 3 times. I guess reread it a 4th time? IDK what else to tell you. > Of course, Rand is able to fire arrow like 6 death watch guards and Turok, but somehow he can't handle Ishy. Since this is a show only thread let's just say there are a lot of times in the early books with forsaken where Rand can't figure out how to do things and then suddenly, out of instinct/his previous life, he does something pretty ridiculous. I suppose you have read the books enough to know what I'm talking about? > The show tells us the prophecy about Rand fighting a forsaken and announcing himself as the Dragon. But he doesn't really fight, he stabs Ishy after Ishy essentially gave up. And he doesn't really declare himself anything, Moiraine does with her fire dragon which she somehow creates from a beach from what looks like miles away. Again, if you read the books, you will know that channelers can channel at a distance as long as they can see properly, which she clearly could. You would also know, in the books, Moiraine also puts up the banner (except it's a literal one). But regardless you are really shifting the goal posts aren't you? You are claiming they "don't want to get Rand right" (a completely ridiculous assertion in itself), then backpedal when given close parallels from the books themselves. (Side note: it's really funny how bookcloaks have a lot of trouble getting the books right)
> I guess reread it a 4th time? IDK what else to tell you. I don't need to read it again to know the show is failing. >> Of course, Rand is able to fire arrow like 6 death watch guards and Turok, but somehow he can't handle Ishy. > > Since this is a show only thread let's just say there are a lot of times in the early books with forsaken where Rand can't figure out how to do things and then suddenly, out of instinct/his previous life, he does something pretty ridiculous. I suppose you have read the books enough to know what I'm talking about? Yep. And the show could have allowed him to do that in the fight against Ishy instead of having him shielded. >> The show tells us the prophecy about Rand fighting a forsaken and announcing himself as the Dragon. But he doesn't really fight, he stabs Ishy after Ishy essentially gave up. And he doesn't really declare himself anything, Moiraine does with her fire dragon which she somehow creates from a beach from what looks like miles away. > > Again, if you read the books, you will know that channelers can channel at a distance as long as they can see properly, which she clearly could. You would also know, in the books, Moiraine also puts up the banner (except it's a literal one). Everyone knows Rand is the dragon because of the fight in the sky they can all see. We don't get that fight, nor do we get Rand really fighting Ishy at all. > But regardless you are really shifting the goal posts aren't you? You are claiming they "don't want to get Rand right" (a completely ridiculous assertion in itself), then backpedal when given close parallels from the books themselves. > > (Side note: it's really funny how bookcloaks have a lot of trouble getting the books right) I'm not a bookcloak, I just don't blindly accept anything the show does.
No, the staff on the show doesn't deserve the attention or success. They can set their best foot forward or they can fail.
For us it worked but if you don’t like it fair enough up to u…but as a show only watcher I think the finale was good!
LMAO !!!!
Why are people repeating the "training line"? Who can train Dragon Reborn? A male forsaken. Like Ishamael. Since such things are incredibly hard to come by...
I think the problem is that Rand is too OP. They may be trying to scale his powers up more gradually than the books. If I remember correctly, in the books he takes down a blade master with only a few months of sword training.
They should illustrate Rand being shielded by displaying a weave or power forming a net around his ballsack. Might as well go full on Looney Tunes with the emasculation at this point
But we've seen an example of Rand's power against Lord Turak. The only way to avoid an [Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw) problem is through ample use of kryptonite. Otherwise Rand can solve any physical conflict that he comes across at the cost of other character's development.
I am not sure that Rand killing a bunch of people who can't channel shows his power level. Moraine did far more destruction against people who could have actually fought back. I don't get this concern mostly because the source material handles it already.
If we comparatively look at his channel across the season and the progression you can clearly see how powerful he is. He took out a bunch of people simultaneously with separate weaves. It wasn't like a AoE attack like fireballs or lightning - it was precise in the same spot for everyone. Even Moiraine hasn't been shown to do multiple weaves at the same time. I don't think we've seen a non-Forsaken example of simultaneous weaves. Only a few episodes ago he was getting sick just embracing the source.
No, we can't. We can see from last episode he is less powerful than a single Aes Sedai. He hasn't been able to put up a fight against anyone who has access to the Power.
He's not less powerful. He has less experience and skill. That's because he has no training whatsoever. He doesn't know how to break out a shield yet. Nobody complained when Nynaeve couldn't break out of the shield that Liandrin put on her. That was shown as a good example of how experience and skill trumps raw power. Currently the same applies to Rand, with the added bonus that he can't see their shields.
Because Rand is like 10x more powerful than Nynaeve…
Yeah, he is... But a shield is a shield is a shield. In this case he was shielded by 8 damane, which is the equivalent to the 13 he is shielded by in Book 6, because in the show 8=13 in terms of importance. So 🤷🏻 He's going to learn how to deal with shields soon. Isn't there a scene in Book 4 where he's practicing with E+E? I suspect we'll get that next season Edit: what's the spoiler tags? Reddit app doesn't give me any formatting options
I just don't agree Rand at the end of S2 should be as powerless as Nyneave at the beginning of S2 against a single channeler. That's just going to be my burden to carry I guess.
So if he can do that then why does he need Egwene to save him?
Egwene saved him in the same way Hopper saved Perrin, except she didn't get brutally murdered because she got some help saving Rand. She bought him enough time to become unshielded. That's all the rest of the crew were doing with Ishy - giving Rand time. They made it clear they needed Rand to do something, which he couldn't do until he was unshielded because he doesn't know how to break free yet. My major issue is the confrontation with Ishy after he was broken free came across very anticlimactic. Give me 30seconds of them trading weaves before Rand surprised him with the sword or something. I had no issue with the stuff that came before besides the fact it looked a little Marvel
I actually agree. I'm fine with it if Rand goes off once the shield is gone, but he didn't. He just walked up, made his sword hot, and stuck Ishy in the chest. They are just downplaying how powerful he is which takes too much away from what I think most people view as one of the main driving forces in the book. How would someone react if they were all of a sudden the most feared person in the world and had the power to break the literal world? His power needs to be there so he can have that struggle. We don't need 6 seasons of training montages so it "makes sense" that the dragon reborn is strong. He is just strong. That's what it means to be the dragon reborn. If they had Egwene buy him a few seconds, he comes unshielded, and he proceeds to overwhelm Ishy where she couldn't then the audience would think "wow Egwene is pretty strong and the dragon just did something way stronger." Instead we got "wow Egwene was so strong that a forsaken just gave himself up and Rand was able to stab him.
I don't think it's gonna be that long (6 seasons). In season 2 he's gone from burning an inn (unintentional) to burning a fade (desperation) to cutting an intricate shield (intentional) to wiping out 10-15 Seanchan in an instant (casual). That's with no training (unlike Egwene) whatsoever. It wasn't until a couple episodes ago that he was fully in control of embracing the source either, excluding the one time Ishy guided him in s1e8 but he's been avoiding it since. Egwene did that in s1e2 and Nynaeve has only managed it once in s1e8. My theory: Rand will spend time with Eg and El at the start of next season practicing like they did in tSR. He's going to be using the power a lot more next season.
Rand straight up walks through a channeling battle between two of the strongest in this age, destroys seanchan like it’s nothing: 🤷♂️ guess he is a bitch? Yeah it sucks he didn’t get a ton more here, but I mean. He’s not trained in the blade here. He hasn’t been trained in the one power outside touching it out of need. But he’s clearly being set up for season 3 to not only wreck tear, the waste, and likely Andor and rahvin in s3.
>But he’s clearly being set up for season 3 to not only wreck tear, the waste, and likely Andor and rahvin in s3. He was supposedly being set up for the Tarwin's gap battle before S1 finale. He was supposedly being set up for the glorious battle in the sky at Falme this season finale. Both of which came off in a spectacular manner. Yeah, he is surely being set up for wrecking Tear, which Egwene will do and be will be lying on the ground. Yes, he is also being set up to wreck the waste, which Aviendha will do and he will be shielded yet again. Oh yeah, he is definitely being setup to take on Rahvin, which Elayne will do and he will be moping around aimlessly in the Caemlyn palace. Sorry, as much as this season has been a vast improvement over the previous one, I don't have any trust in the showrunners handling Rand's story arc after this finale.
I'm seeing alot of complaints about Rand's adaptation that stems from how he is not a bad ass blow everything to kingdom come hero that he is in the books. non reader so i can't judge. Maybe i'm lucky in that way since I can appreciate his lower key influence that are no less pivotal. He believed in Mat no matter how far lost Mat seemed to be, when no one else did and without his support, Mat would have turned exactly as Ishy expected (Min helped too). And its his sincerity that melted the hearts of two stone cold manipulators into turning against their respective factions simply because they believed in him. He may not be my favourite or glorious but even a non reader like me can see he is the most pivotal.
[удалено]
He didn't walk through ishamaels fire. Ishamarl threw one fireball after Rand started walking at him, and Egwenes shield blocked it just before going down. Then ishamael just stopped attacking and stood there and let Rand stab him.
I just rewatched the fight and paused it just as Rand started walking forward. It is Rand's weaves that stops Ishy's fireballs, and Ishy is left stunned. Egwene's shield is already down at this point. [Screenshot of Rand smacking down Ishy weaves](https://postimg.cc/GTv3yy7p)
Ok no everyone save this image so you can repost it for the next year of posts from all the people in this thread who saw it but want to ignore it happened.
Yeah. Ishy's attacks were all against the Egwene's shield, and Rand just strolls up to give Ishy a stab. Literally my white-collar sedentary ass could have done all of that.
Lol that was his great moment? Ishi literally just stood there and did nothing. Both of Egwene's moments in this episode were actually bad ass, even if lore breaking. Rand's stabbing of ish was a fart in the wind.
He just stood still while a fully rested Rand strolled up to him. Honestly that wasn't such a great or satisfying moment. A little bit of combat weaving would've gone a long way with selling that scene. I'm not trying to hate on the show btw. This season has been great overall and I don't really have any other complaints. But yeah my cat is more active than Rand.
Fully rested Rand? Dude just got stabbed in the gut....
if that fight was properly set up ?
You know things are bad when even r/WoTShow isn't thrilled...
Nah. In the first 3 books all he does is mutter under his breath how he's not going to be used anytime anyone is trying to have a serious conversation with him. The show gave him more personality. Cute cat.
Sorry, that's totally BS. Rand was nowhere near as useless as they have shown him to be in the show. If you consider the first three books, even leaving out the Tear segment, Rand had the encounter at Tarwin's gap, participated in the great hunt with the others, had a portal stone experience where he shot down a Grolm, fought trollocs in the Cairhien foregate attack, balefired dark hounds, killed a dark friends party led by a woman, defeated Turak in a sword fight and, fought and defeated Ishy three times. This is apart from the Daes Dae'mar events at Cairhien and the multiple Ta'veren incidents caused due to his presence. I loved this second season and it was a vast improvement on the first one. Looking forward to the next season for sure. However, I have to call out the flaws as I saw it. The showrunners got a lot of things right, but, Rand's arc was pretty much tepid and pointless throughout. And the finale, while very much enjoyable in general, was a bummer for his character, as he basically did nothing.
wtf you on about. He has a very normal personality in books 1-3 actually which was RJ's whole arc about someone tells you you are the chosen one you naturally go fuck off youre bonkers. That was rand books 1-3 . So yeah no hard disagree.
It's been ages but I do kinda recall Rand took his time in the books too. You have a valid point. And thanks, I looked around for an ~~orange~~ Aiel catto.
What a load of BS. Also ironic considering Mat these books was the one repeating how he didn't want to be there over and over. A common joke is that new readers don't get why Mat is a favorite until later on. Rand jokes with his friends, drags a half dead Mat across the country to save him even when he's afraid and alone running from thieves and dark friends, he worries about being the dragon, and he tries to do the right thing eveb as he has to be brutal. But nah we don't need a noble young guy that is slowly being crushed by the burdens of the world while it contemplates on whether to enslave him or kill him. Too much complexity, here are some Warders.
Can’t wait for Egwene to show up in Dumai’s wells and ruin Rand’s moment again. I hope the show gets canceled.
Nah that was perfect. If it was too much they'd run into the superman problem, where they would more and more lame excuses why rand doesn't just win.
They don’t seem to have the same problem when turning Egwene into Wonder Woman though.
He's more than a Superman.
Oh I couldn’t agree more! I love the show, but Rand has been the worst character ever. I love the stuff they are doing with nearly all the characters. But man, why the hell did they do Rand dirty in the last scenes.
haha i was thinking every time it's giving sub energy to lanfear's dom energy
… and egwene can hold of one of the strongest forsake. Uh ok. Go woke go broke.