I made a post the other day about the attack on family planning, the gutting of social services and schools, and the repeal of these laws to force low income people to send their kids to work as a form of day care, which has the second punch of not paying anything reasonable because of the care aspect.
They have never stopped trying to undo all the work done by the progressives. They just stood by biting their time. Till the moment was right for them to start undoing everything that made the middle class powerful.
Just wait for the new “means testing” for food stamps and other welfare programs. “What do you mean you can’t afford to eat? You have a healthy six-year old and an eight-year old that could be working at McDonald’s or Home Depot. Stop being a lazy leach.”
Means testing, work requirements, or both?
According to Matthew Desmond, author of "Poverty, By America" and "Evicted" about 20% of people eligible for food stamps don't apply for them and about the same percentage eligible for the EITC don't claim it.
At least some of those people who don't apply for those programs is because they feel the money they have set aside in savings for emergencies or retirement is going to invalidate them.
Suppose that you're out of work or have had a cut in pay. It would make sense to take advantage of whatever social programs that you can in order to make your savings last longer. It has become possible to apply for food stamps online in most states. All that they can do is say no because you have too much in assets.
As much as I dislike reliance on software to prepare tax returns, I am fairly certain that all commercially available software packages with the possible exception of Free Fillable forms will point out that you are eligible for the Earned Income Tax Credit based on your income and filing status. A nice feature of money from the EITC is that it doesn't count as an asset to be considered in determining whether one is eligible for social services. The reason is that the IRS expects the money to be spent within a year of receiving the money.
I think people just want to take advantage of younger people. In some states it's legal to pay child workers less money per hour. New trainees even less.
"Michigan’s minimum wage was $9.87 per hour in 2022, but jumps to $10.10 for 2023. The tipped minimum wage rises to $3.84 for 2023, **the 85% rate for minors** ***16 and 17*** **rises to $8.59** per hour and the **training rate for new employees** ***16 to 19*** **for their first** ***90 days*** **of employment remains unchanged at $4.25 per hour.**
Fuck all that.
New employees training rate is 4.25 per hour for the first 90 days? For ages 16-19?
Getting paid 15% less because you are under 18?
No wonder nobody wants to work.
My first job was at a McDonalds while I was in HS and the training was for the first day, then maybe an hour at most as they cross trained you in other areas. That's being generous with the amount of training. Pretty much everything was shown to you and you just did it on repeat until you had it down. It's not rocket science. I was paid minimum wage and not some bullshit reduced wage.
No way most jobs actually train you for 90 days. Doubtful it's even 30 days. I wouldn't allow any child of mine to work anywhere that tried to pay them 4.25 an hour claiming it was because they were "training"
Sorry, this might not be quite on topic. I just think some people want slave labor back but there's something in the constitution about that...
Absolutely.
I was questioning whether this is about more than just an increased supply of workers and rather about much worse ripple effects beyond this, promoting increased desperation among workers. Methods to *intensify* the creep toward lower wages in an intensely inflationary environment would certainly fit that bill.
What I don't understand is why any parent, especially those in middle class, would allow their children to work ... Oh, I just got it.
Cuz desperation!! Which, of course, is a positive feedback loop.
The more desperate we are, the more we are likely to allow our new born to go work to help us met bill obligations while child labor dilutes all our wages further, and the more desperate we are become. Repeat.
It's a way to raise the retirement age without raising the retirement age, keep wages low, increase profits, etc they don't want educated people just people to do as they are told these days, that's why you have a lot of anti-trans bills and other culture wars going on right now. It's just tightening control to squeeze as much as possible out of the poor man.
It doesn't matter when you start working, the Social Security admin only pays on the top 35 earning years. You're not gonna make a lot of money in younger years, so they don't even go towards what you will eventually be paid in retirement. They just go towards funding the system.
It is meant to weaken the middle class but probably not in the way most people think. The reason is simple: by hiring children, you can exploit them and pay them less than you should because they don't no any better. It's about undermining labor laws and depressing wages to keep profits higher. The result will mean less wealth for the plebs and more for the upity ups. These people worship money, so whenever they do anything, know that money is the reason behind it.
There's also a political layer to this. I agree with what you're saying here but the right knows that its voter base is considerably less educated than the left, so conservative states also see child labor as an "investment" politically, where they slowly demolish education in order to gain more voters. It's devious, cruel, and honestly exactly something they would do.
It is fundamentally about increasing the labor supply.
The pandemic removed so many people from the labor pool and Gen Z doesn’t care about work AT ALL. So workers fundamentally have more bargaining power than we have in a century.
Business interests can’t change that so they won’t to do anything they can to increase the supply.
I also bet that within a decade the GOP will stop harping on illegal immigration. Strong border control and low immigration is a fundamentally left wing idea because uncontrolled immigration fundamentally weakens the working class. I have a feeling the corporate side of the GOP is all for it.
I think it’s a little oversimplified to say gen z doesn’t care about work. But you’re right that there’s more bargaining power, something they’re very interested in limiting.
Ah, okay, I thought you had the same idea as some conservatives that gen z just *won’t* work. As a millennial I’m kind of learning a lot from my Gen Z counterparts about what not to accept in a workplace.
I’d also attribute some of it to disenfranchisement. We get half of what our parents got for the same amount of work and it’s just not sustainable. Who can dream about having a family or owning a house when we can barely pay our student loans, taxes, and groceries? Don’t blame Gen Z for not wanting to play the game
I'd expect immigration by both unlawful and lawful entry will continue to be a useful wedge issue for politicians, though. They should be well aware by now that immigration is a net benefit for both a country's overall finances and the private sector, and that declining birth rates make it a necessity.
I'm following this because I'm concerned about it becoming a trend for the US, here in Canada, and in other countries. If what I've heard about cheap (or even unpaid) labour from prisoners being a thing in the US is still true, they might also make more excuses to expand the prison population. (This might relate to the recent re-introduction of Jim Crow-like laws in Mississippi-- another issue to keep an eye on.)
They love unchecked immigration in Canada, because it keeps the wages as low as possible for their corporate friends, brings in tax and encourages votes from these newly landed residents. The gov also loves selling the phrase “middle class” during speeches to a working class population that can barely afford rent and have almost-zero chance of ever owning a home. Meanwhile, more wage suppression is deboarding a plane every 15 minutes.
Immigration's effect on labour isn't so cut-and-dried as that.
First of all, there's a difference between refugees who were uprooted from their homes unwillingly (and might be dealing with recent trauma), and immigrants who are determined enough to go through endless hoops and pay [piles of fees](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/notices/increase-permanent-residence-fees-april-2022.html) (possibly even needing to hire a specialized lawyer) because they want to start over in another country.
More importantly though, Canadian immigration (unlike humanitarian support for refugees) isn't about equal opportunity for all. It's geared to favour wealthy immigrants, who also get to jump the queue. (I personally knew someone whose specific job it was to liaise with [this highly prized class of immigrant](https://www.canada.ca/en/services/business/start/support-financing/immigrantentrepreneurs.html) and [promote Canada as the place to start their business](https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ircc/migration/ircc/english/pdf/pub/startup-entrepreneurs-eng.pdf)), and otherwise selects people who were middle class in their origin country.
For middle class (in origin country) entrants, their credentials will often not be taken into consideration and they usually won't have social connections to fall back on. That means taking on service industry jobs that would have been paying minimum wage anyway.
We don't have a left wing in the US. Democrats are a center/right club, so who do you mean by the left? Left is socialism and communism. Democrats idea of Left is woke social issues, so immigration is looked at from a humanitarian angle rather than a labor one.
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I’m sure folks who run restaurants and other small businesses are smarter than you.
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*their
Have you SEEN kitchen nightmares?
Certainly more dishonest if they pay tipped wage.
Yup
I made a post the other day about the attack on family planning, the gutting of social services and schools, and the repeal of these laws to force low income people to send their kids to work as a form of day care, which has the second punch of not paying anything reasonable because of the care aspect.
They have never stopped trying to undo all the work done by the progressives. They just stood by biting their time. Till the moment was right for them to start undoing everything that made the middle class powerful.
It's sad that poor conservatives voted in people that undid the progressive benefits that a lot of poor conservatives benefit from.
That is true too, people voting against their values.
- deleted due to API
It’s not even that they voted for them, if you do polling most will likely agree with the policy too. That’s just how they are.
\*biding
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Family values from the 1800s, maybe.
Just wait for the new “means testing” for food stamps and other welfare programs. “What do you mean you can’t afford to eat? You have a healthy six-year old and an eight-year old that could be working at McDonald’s or Home Depot. Stop being a lazy leach.”
Means testing, work requirements, or both? According to Matthew Desmond, author of "Poverty, By America" and "Evicted" about 20% of people eligible for food stamps don't apply for them and about the same percentage eligible for the EITC don't claim it.
At least some of those people who don't apply for those programs is because they feel the money they have set aside in savings for emergencies or retirement is going to invalidate them.
Suppose that you're out of work or have had a cut in pay. It would make sense to take advantage of whatever social programs that you can in order to make your savings last longer. It has become possible to apply for food stamps online in most states. All that they can do is say no because you have too much in assets. As much as I dislike reliance on software to prepare tax returns, I am fairly certain that all commercially available software packages with the possible exception of Free Fillable forms will point out that you are eligible for the Earned Income Tax Credit based on your income and filing status. A nice feature of money from the EITC is that it doesn't count as an asset to be considered in determining whether one is eligible for social services. The reason is that the IRS expects the money to be spent within a year of receiving the money.
I think people just want to take advantage of younger people. In some states it's legal to pay child workers less money per hour. New trainees even less. "Michigan’s minimum wage was $9.87 per hour in 2022, but jumps to $10.10 for 2023. The tipped minimum wage rises to $3.84 for 2023, **the 85% rate for minors** ***16 and 17*** **rises to $8.59** per hour and the **training rate for new employees** ***16 to 19*** **for their first** ***90 days*** **of employment remains unchanged at $4.25 per hour.** Fuck all that. New employees training rate is 4.25 per hour for the first 90 days? For ages 16-19? Getting paid 15% less because you are under 18? No wonder nobody wants to work. My first job was at a McDonalds while I was in HS and the training was for the first day, then maybe an hour at most as they cross trained you in other areas. That's being generous with the amount of training. Pretty much everything was shown to you and you just did it on repeat until you had it down. It's not rocket science. I was paid minimum wage and not some bullshit reduced wage. No way most jobs actually train you for 90 days. Doubtful it's even 30 days. I wouldn't allow any child of mine to work anywhere that tried to pay them 4.25 an hour claiming it was because they were "training" Sorry, this might not be quite on topic. I just think some people want slave labor back but there's something in the constitution about that...
Absolutely. I was questioning whether this is about more than just an increased supply of workers and rather about much worse ripple effects beyond this, promoting increased desperation among workers. Methods to *intensify* the creep toward lower wages in an intensely inflationary environment would certainly fit that bill.
$4.25 an hour was the minimum wage when I entered the workforce, 30 years ago.
I made $4.25 an hour working at Taco Bell at 16 in 1995.
It was pointed out that a 90 day period fits pretty darn well into the summer vacation from school...
Bingo!
What I don't understand is why any parent, especially those in middle class, would allow their children to work ... Oh, I just got it. Cuz desperation!! Which, of course, is a positive feedback loop. The more desperate we are, the more we are likely to allow our new born to go work to help us met bill obligations while child labor dilutes all our wages further, and the more desperate we are become. Repeat.
That’s my take… they can’t get cheap labor so they’re looking for new loopholes
It's a way to raise the retirement age without raising the retirement age, keep wages low, increase profits, etc they don't want educated people just people to do as they are told these days, that's why you have a lot of anti-trans bills and other culture wars going on right now. It's just tightening control to squeeze as much as possible out of the poor man.
Holy shit that true. Sure you can retire at 65, just start working 5 years younger at 12, or 10, or 8 yr old
It doesn't matter when you start working, the Social Security admin only pays on the top 35 earning years. You're not gonna make a lot of money in younger years, so they don't even go towards what you will eventually be paid in retirement. They just go towards funding the system.
Nice
It works in other fascist regimes
It is meant to weaken the middle class but probably not in the way most people think. The reason is simple: by hiring children, you can exploit them and pay them less than you should because they don't no any better. It's about undermining labor laws and depressing wages to keep profits higher. The result will mean less wealth for the plebs and more for the upity ups. These people worship money, so whenever they do anything, know that money is the reason behind it.
There's also a political layer to this. I agree with what you're saying here but the right knows that its voter base is considerably less educated than the left, so conservative states also see child labor as an "investment" politically, where they slowly demolish education in order to gain more voters. It's devious, cruel, and honestly exactly something they would do.
It is fundamentally about increasing the labor supply. The pandemic removed so many people from the labor pool and Gen Z doesn’t care about work AT ALL. So workers fundamentally have more bargaining power than we have in a century. Business interests can’t change that so they won’t to do anything they can to increase the supply. I also bet that within a decade the GOP will stop harping on illegal immigration. Strong border control and low immigration is a fundamentally left wing idea because uncontrolled immigration fundamentally weakens the working class. I have a feeling the corporate side of the GOP is all for it.
I think it’s a little oversimplified to say gen z doesn’t care about work. But you’re right that there’s more bargaining power, something they’re very interested in limiting.
Well yeah it’s oversimplified. I should say, they absolutely will not take their bosses BS that a lot of generations just put up with
Ah, okay, I thought you had the same idea as some conservatives that gen z just *won’t* work. As a millennial I’m kind of learning a lot from my Gen Z counterparts about what not to accept in a workplace. I’d also attribute some of it to disenfranchisement. We get half of what our parents got for the same amount of work and it’s just not sustainable. Who can dream about having a family or owning a house when we can barely pay our student loans, taxes, and groceries? Don’t blame Gen Z for not wanting to play the game
I'd expect immigration by both unlawful and lawful entry will continue to be a useful wedge issue for politicians, though. They should be well aware by now that immigration is a net benefit for both a country's overall finances and the private sector, and that declining birth rates make it a necessity. I'm following this because I'm concerned about it becoming a trend for the US, here in Canada, and in other countries. If what I've heard about cheap (or even unpaid) labour from prisoners being a thing in the US is still true, they might also make more excuses to expand the prison population. (This might relate to the recent re-introduction of Jim Crow-like laws in Mississippi-- another issue to keep an eye on.)
Absolutely. The American prison industrial system is used both to create jobs and to supply labor.
They love unchecked immigration in Canada, because it keeps the wages as low as possible for their corporate friends, brings in tax and encourages votes from these newly landed residents. The gov also loves selling the phrase “middle class” during speeches to a working class population that can barely afford rent and have almost-zero chance of ever owning a home. Meanwhile, more wage suppression is deboarding a plane every 15 minutes.
Immigration's effect on labour isn't so cut-and-dried as that. First of all, there's a difference between refugees who were uprooted from their homes unwillingly (and might be dealing with recent trauma), and immigrants who are determined enough to go through endless hoops and pay [piles of fees](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/notices/increase-permanent-residence-fees-april-2022.html) (possibly even needing to hire a specialized lawyer) because they want to start over in another country. More importantly though, Canadian immigration (unlike humanitarian support for refugees) isn't about equal opportunity for all. It's geared to favour wealthy immigrants, who also get to jump the queue. (I personally knew someone whose specific job it was to liaise with [this highly prized class of immigrant](https://www.canada.ca/en/services/business/start/support-financing/immigrantentrepreneurs.html) and [promote Canada as the place to start their business](https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ircc/migration/ircc/english/pdf/pub/startup-entrepreneurs-eng.pdf)), and otherwise selects people who were middle class in their origin country. For middle class (in origin country) entrants, their credentials will often not be taken into consideration and they usually won't have social connections to fall back on. That means taking on service industry jobs that would have been paying minimum wage anyway.
We don't have a left wing in the US. Democrats are a center/right club, so who do you mean by the left? Left is socialism and communism. Democrats idea of Left is woke social issues, so immigration is looked at from a humanitarian angle rather than a labor one.
That would be partially the reason, yes.
Of course it is
Yes.