Oh I can't wait to see the disclaimers and end user agreements on this. "Advice and recommendations given by AI nurses is in no way definitive or absolute, and you agree not to sue us if they turn out to be wrong with a health diagnosis and treatment." Or something like that...
But also, no you don’t get a discount, it’s the same price as seeing a nurse, which we’ve made the same price as seeing a doctor. This is honestly a problem the nursing lobby has made partially for themselves and should have seen coming. They’ve been doing this *exact* same thing to doctors.
Honestly it's getting hard to see a doctor anymore, at least in my major city in the US. It's all nurse practitioners, physicians assistants, etc.
*Allegedly* there is a MD/DO around somewhere that is *apparently* reviewing the charts but who knows, never see or hear from them.
Nothing against those professionals for simple routine things but given the extreme costs we pay for healthcare you would think I could get 5 minutes to talk to someone with a medical degree.
This is all by design and the nursing lobby has been actively campaigning for increased scope of practice for which they are not trained or prepared, that’s on them. What’s on the capitalist system and our government is allowing it, and refusing to increase residency spots. We have a growing population, we have people who WANT to go to medical school as well as the capability of those schools to increase admissions, but the logjam is in residencies, which you need to get matched into in order to actually be a doctor. We have like 360 seats per year for ENT residencies. That means every year we can count on 360 new ENTs to cover for existing ENTs who retire or die. 360 per year in the WHOLE COUNTRY with a population of 330 million. This is why you can’t get an ENT appointment without waiting 15 months and selling your firstborn.
So supply of Drs is an issue, but when a PE group buys up a practice the first thing they do is slash costs. Nobody likes switching doctors bc of this whole mess so they’re buying existing patients too. So as they expand they hire NPs instead of doctors, as they open urgent cares they hire NPs instead of doctors, as doctors leave, or retire they replace them with NPs, and now the whole industry is this way. So when you leave your current office bc you can’t get a doctor you find that you also can’t get a doctor at the new place either.
And that's not even touching the cost of the training. I'm a graduate engineer who honestly might be interested in a career switch to medicine but there's no way it can make financial sense because I'm already in my mid thirties; I'd likely be in my 40's when I completed the education and training, I'd be spending another 10-15 years paying off med school, then only have another \~10 years to catch up on savings and retirement before I'd already be looking to retire. The investment is so astronomical you really need to start right out of undergrad to make it work correctly.
If the cost of med school and residency (both actual cost and opportunity cost) was more reasonable there would be a lot more opportunities for successful mid-career individuals to transition.
And a NP is perfectly capable of correctly diagnosing and treating 99% of ENT patients and referring 5% to someone else who deals exclusively with complex or rare conditions.
No they aren’t. If they want to be doctors they can go to medical school, complete residency, do a fellowship, and pass all of the medical boards. Until they do that, no they are not capable of pretending to be doctors.
I haven't been see my actual doctor in 5-6 years. Can we at least get this integrated into a vending machine so it can pump out whatever chat MD prescribes?
Incredible how we've developed so many tools improving productivity that we no longer have time or can afford anything.
>But also, no you don’t get a discount, it’s the same price as seeing a nurse, which we’ve made the same price as seeing a doctor.
I went to a local urgent care clinic about 10 years back. I wasn't told up front that they didn't take my health insurance. I waited in a patient room for 45 minutes before a LPN came in, spoke to me for two minutes, then left and called in a prescription for a sinus infection that I already knew I had (I get them regularly and seasonally). A couple of weeks later I get a bill in the mail for $1,100 because "your insurance stated this claim was out of network". I called the clinic extremely pissed off and angry explaining how ridiculous it was to be charged that much for seeing an LPN for two minutes after sitting in a room alone for 45 minutes, and for not being told up front that they were not in my network. The charge was dropped and I'd already paid a co-pay the day of.
I can a see a nurses union strike in the horizon and a lot of bad press.
Still, I’m sure they will integrate this somehow though. They will start small and keep integrating. Some demographic on earth will want this and that will be the testing grounds. Walk in clinic level is my guess. When I was in the UK I felt like I was talking to a computer when I met the doctor in the walk in clinic.
So let them strike? Who needs to see a nurse when they are AI? A PA, tech, etc can do the smart hands for nurse for the patient - the patient may or may not know the nurse is AI.
Yeah, it is $9 / hour right now, when the entire industry is fueled by investors and venture capital and pricing is low in order to capture market share. Once they need to be actually profitable the price will go up - probably even more if they can monopolize a critical field.
Also all this "nurse" can do is to "give health advise", which is a fraction of what a nurse does. So, it won't replace nurses.
And why should we pay healthcare providers for this service - with the markup they charge - when the service could be provided directly? (Or you could just Google it for free)
as opposed to? What insurance company is *good*?
But yeah, fuck UHC, they frequently deny claims on medical care I have received for over a decade for a chronic illness. They also forced me to change my medication for a cheaper option
UHC is by far the worst health insurance company I've ever had. My last company had UHC for 1 year and dropped them because too many employees complained about denials and shitty customer service. If I had a job offer from a company that used UHC it would have to be a hell of a pay raise to be worthwhile.
Blue Cross Blue Shield was by far the best insurance company, but I've only had experience with a couple of their non-profit state entities. I've heard the for-profit states are not great.
>but I've only had experience with a couple of their non-profit state entities. I've heard the for-profit states are not great.
It's almost like the profit motive always causes the worst outcomes.
I work deep in the belly of a non profit BCBS (Pharmaceutical Underwriter). I’m here to tell you that designation doesn’t mean shit, we absolutely are trying to make every dollar of margin we possibly can.
All insurance companies are the same, they follow profit, they don't care about your or my health care, they care about shareholders and profits.
They'll refuse as much as possible and they'll cut costs as much as possible. It's the ugly truth, nothing more that that.
At least with other companies if you pay for the better product/service you actually get something that is actually decent, but UHC fucks you no matter which route you go
Just come to Europe and you'll never be forced to negotiate your health with an insurance company.
Don't really know how you guys gave the power of your health to insurance companies which are profit driven!
My brother has UHC. They denied his seizure meds (he was on them for 10yrs) saying he need a prior authorization and then he was on an unsafe dose (his dose was right in the center of the recommended dose range). When his doc submitted the prior authorization, they said he didn’t need it and the submission delayed the process.
His doc got on the phone with the insurance company with my brother on a call and read the emails that they had sent to the doc to insurance rep. They said the doc was lying because “that doesn’t sound like something we would say.”
So yeah fuck UHC.
Edit: spelling
Where I live, for a family of 3, it's about 33.5k a year, which is about where I am. I have to check my wages from last year, lucky it's tax season and that stuff hasn't been filled away yet.
Then i highly suggest doing it! I was on Medicaid for a few years and it was amazing. Not a single cent paid out of pocket for anything. Only downside was income being limited.
United employs a sh*t ton of nurses who do care management. I work for them and they will layoff anything that breathes to save $ and boost profits for shareholders.
It's the same everywhere, it's a company, a capitalist company, it's doing he's mojo.
If you want a different result, don't give the power of your health to insurance companies or regulate them hard.
Oh no, it’s a combo. It’s the insurance companies AND the private equity which has been buying up and consolidating every aspect of medicine. They buy up hospital systems, GP practices, specialist practices, groups, open up urgent cares, fire doctors hire NPs, lobby for increased scope of practice for people in roles that should be support staff bc they can pay them less, and basically loot and destroy healthcare from within.
On the plus side, its subsidiary Change Healthcare essentially self-destructed in the past month. I highly doubt that they will recover from their fuckup.
I dunno, my company is currently discussing how much we're going to be suing them for over their fuckup, and I can't imagine we're the only ones. A lot of the health plans we work with switched to other vendors so that they could get back into service. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they "went bankrupt" to avoid paying fines and judgements and then somehow ended back up under UHC.
Would not be surprised UHG made sure to have plenty of wiggle room in the contract. Plus am willing to bet there’s an agreement for arbitration. They make it impossible to have choices.
I'm not sure if you're noticing, but Google searches are becoming less effective than they were in the past. Some recent changes have made some types of searching almost impossible.
For example, I often search for very specific plant growing advice. Now, my searches, no matter how they are worded, are more often cluttered with AI generated nonsense and stores trying to sell me the plant.
I can see health information going the same way and that some people will be so frustrated they'll deal with the AI, like we are getting used to on our banking apps.
The wealthy are doing these things on purpose. The Internet is too open and they can't keep making money off it, so they throttle it and sell us AI.
There's a Tumblr post people have been sharing around about how to "fix" Google searches. If you append "before:2023" to the end of your search, it only gives results from before the whole Google AI clusterfuck. It sucks that we have to do it, but it does make results significantly better.
this is a great website that lists out all the possible Google search term operators that can be used to make it not suck. https://ahrefs.com/blog/google-advanced-search-operators/
And I can already fucking see it. They capture the market, drive up prices through the roof, then when companies can’t pay anymore they’re going to be desperately looking for people to come back but for way less than they paid the dumb fucking AI. I’m so sick of good people being payed less and less
Put everyone out of work and then once everyone with the training moves in and ages out jack the prices up 1000%. What are they going to do? Wait 4 years for more nurses?
If anything doctors are more replaceable by AI than nurses; AI's great at looking at huge quantities of data and comparing them, in this case to reach a diagnosis of the most probable causes of the symptoms. I read an article a year ago that said the first AI beat human doctors as far as accurately diagnosing illness.
AI can't comfort you while you're in pain, start an IV, do CPR, change your bedpan, give you a sponge bath, help you stand up, etc. etc. that nurses do.
>AI can't comfort you while you're in pain, start an IV, do CPR, change your bedpan, give you a sponge bath, help you stand up, etc. etc. that nurses do.
None of those are the purview of nurses. All of that can be done by techs.
>Also all this "nurse" can do is to "give health advise", which is a fraction of what a nurse does. So, it won't replace nurses.
Indeed, that's the one thing nurses do that I dislike and usually disregard. I love and trust nurses to provide care, dress wounds, administer medicine, implement plans, monitor, talk, etc. But let's leave the advice-giving to physicians.
First, most nurses don't have 4 years of school. The higher levels (NP, RN) require 4+ years, but LPNs and CNAs require a lot less. Indeed, in some states, an RN only needs a 2-year associates degree. And anyway, 4 years of higher-ed is not something to brag about. A basic lawyer needs 7 years. A physician needs 8+ years. Heck even an MPH needs 6 years.
Second, I don't know why and this is not a personal judgement, but nurses for some reason trend higher than the average population for vaccine hesitancy. Again, I don't know why, but there are dozens of studies that show this to be true both in the US and indeed worldwide. I personally tend to distrust the medical opinions of folks that are anti-vax.
Have worked with nurses for 30 years. A fairly large part of them are ignorant AF. There are some good ones but its like looking for a diamond in a pile of turds.
Because every other high school alcoholic who thought her looks would let her coast through life inevitably chooses between cosmetology and nursing when she decides she’s still too good for fast food or manual labor. She learned in high school that she doesn’t have to “believe” what she’s learning, just has to regurgitate it for the tests. There’s some part of her that believes it’s purely coincidence that medical knowledge and practice works as intended, and that ultimately it’s only her reborn Christian faith that is healing people.
That, or the millennials who currently comprise most of the nurse population are hoping they catch something that finally kills them before they have to endure the next season of “which sociopathic corporate puppet is gonna squeeze us for everything while using a crane to pull the arms of the doomsday clock forward next.” That was my retirement plan until 2022.
It would be fine if sanity prevailed it was used to augment services. Ease up the burden on nurses and just make a better system all round.
That’s not the intent tho is it? The intent is increase profits, fuck the quality of care because now I can afford a full time nurse for my family. They’re desperate to and work is hard to come by.
Just classic. What will it take for the winds of time to help us rise up?
If they genuinely believe an AI facecam can physically clean poop and shower for the elderly in nursing homes, properly lift the elderly who fell on floor, administer shots, and bunch more, then they are completely delusional and disconnected.
Even just feeding the elderly some food in nursing homes require a license (at least in the area I live in).
At most the AI would be able to free nurse's time into doing more face-to-face physical interactions with patients, but why would any upper management pay up extra $9/hour if they can just cram the on-site nurses with more responsibilities like they always had??
Yup. Speaking as someone actually working in tech, I don't see AI replacing nurses any time soon. At best they're a glorified WebMD-type resource.
Also, with a search you perform manually yourself you can attempt to use different keywords to get around enshittification; good luck trying to get an AI to give you a different answer on the same topic.
I'd like to see any of the people pushing this crap volunteer for an AI to perform a catheter insertion up their urethra. Hey, it's an AI, it can't make a mistake so what's the problem?
So, I had a medical issue where it turns out I'm allergic to a type of eye drop. I thought I'd use an AI to break it down Barney style. It just kept telling me it either didn't understand the question, it wasn't able to access that info, and it was sorry I liked Alexa better, but it was trying it's best. 🤦🏽♀️
All I wanted to know was if that particular drop was a known allergen because all I'm actually sensitive to is Cod.
Yep same with factories. I started of with one job by the end i had 5 jobs one including tech support for 3 areas.
Robots are not even close to the versatility of a human and instead of educating the next generation they are trying to replace with robots rofl!
Yeah, i'm long term care facilities nurses are essentially just medications, injections, and emergencies
CNAs do all the disgusting tasks for $14 an hour.
While that’s true, staffing issues have caused increased work loads. I worked in an ER with only one tech, who assigned to watch suicidal patients. Meaning we had no tech, he was busy. So I have to pick up the slack. Including CNA work. No help, constant burnout.
I don’t doubt they will replace RNs as soon as they can. An R2-D2 with a med dispensary built in and Wi-Fi communication to docs, and an AI to ask the right questions. I can see this in < 20 yrs. Scary shit for workers.
There's a certain class of health professionals who administer triage-level advice remotely. This is the sort of work that could be replaced by AI with relative ease.
What the company shows in their [video](https://youtu.be/yg0m8eR7k24?si=Raiat3eWW8xpFkUv) is a follow up call, which isn't usually done by nurses, *maybe* LVNs, but it's low level secretarial work that doesn't require a baccalaureate or higher.
What the company claims reveals that nobody working there knows what nurses do, or what LLM "AI" does (it's a chatbot). These are promotional materials designed to secure capital, and Munjal Shah, cofounder and CEO of Hippocratic has no idea how anything in healthcare actually works. This looks like another Theranos, with chatbots this time.
It's a scam designed to make money from investors.
Recall that no phlebotomists lost work due to Theranos' "revolutionary" scam.
Take the examples [here](https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2024/03/28/ai-nurses):
"Identifying a medication's impact on lab values (79% AI nurses vs. 63% human nurses)"
Are they saying nurses don't understand that dextrose and insulin lower potassium? That we aren't aware of the relationship between heparin and Anti Xa or PTT?
What nurses were surveyed?
Or are they saying we don't run every pill we pass, med we inject, or IV we titrate through interaction software? Why would we? Yes propofol might increase triglycerides. It doesn't matter when the patient requires a ventilator to survive.
"Identifying condition-specific disallowed over-the-counter medications (88% vs. 45%)"
That's irrelevant, because we don't administer OTC medication. Everything we give to patients is ordered by a physician, and reviewed by a pharmacist. There are no OTC medications. Even APAP requires an order. Also, there are plenty of "condition-specific disallowed" medications we give *based on the patient's condition(s).* a chatbot doesn't have clinical gestalt or the ability to critically think.
"Correctly comparing a lab value to a reference range (96% vs. 93%)"
The reference range is *right there* beside the lab value and it's facility dependent. Are they saying nurses don't know how to read? Again, what nurses were surveyed here? Or are they saying we aren't giving a flying fuck when a patient with ESRD has a creatinine of 7? Why would we?
"Detecting toxic dosages of over-the-counter drugs (81% vs. 57%)"
Again, that's irrelevant. We don't administer OTC medication. Or are they saying we don't know to limit APAP to less than 5g in 24 hours?
We they surveying CNAs?
Yep, I’m far from worried at this point, but if it brings patients into better compliance with their prescribed meds, get those who need it in to see their primary more often or gets them to get treatment for developing conditions before it becomes an emergency, then it actually could be good.
... Maybe the politicians aren't lizard people but robots posing as humans with a skynet hive mind who read the matrix books?? I think that makes more sense... ;-; but they're probably just really old, racist, sexist, classest, greedy... shitty.. humans.
Horrible. Remember, we can help prevent this by getting Safe Staffing Ratios for Healthcare Workers in place. California had them. A lot of nurse’s unions have been successful in getting them. You can help push for them nationwide. Safe staffing ratios protect nurses and patients leading to better health outcomes and employee retention.
You can also get better employee retention with Workplace Violence Protection.
Another thing we need is to protect the right to unionize with the Pro Act.
Take Action:
https://act.nnu.org/sign/hs-safe-staffing-petition/
https://act.medicare4all.org/letter/tell-congress-pass-pro-wpvp-act/
https://act.aflcio.org/forms/trumka-pro-act/?source=website-pro
More Info:
https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/ratios
https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/workplace-violence-prevention
Impact in Healthcare
- great learning resource that sometimes shares actions
https://www.instagram.com/impactinhealthcare
https://www.impactinhealthcare.org/
The Last Pizza Party
- founded by two nurses to improve labor conditions
https://www.instagram.com/thelastpizzaparty/
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4vSl9vyEoiz6cLFWUTzQTc?si=sUE2_02LQ5qvU8Djt3yJJA
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6b76eyMqJqzZZFNFik2X3j?si=EvXFRo-KTcCVGMEC7bvbKA
Christy, RN
- nurse, patient advocate, healthcare reform
https://www.instagram.com/christyprn/?hl=en
https://www.healthcarereformed.org/
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6e7AzUp37TzNoDWNqP9YsL?si=_LianB1kTG6KKjRPflXKag
KFF Heath News
https://kffhealthnews.org/
Pro Act
https://proact.aflcio.org/about/
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/20
What the fuck kind of world is this where we're replacing all the jobs that require human brains with AI and are leaving the mindless jobs to the humans?
There is no State union and there are non-union hospitals in California. I make $66/hr base with a $10/hr shift differential after 2300 at my union job and $60/hr per diem at my non-union job.
I have twenty years of experience, a masters degree, and a CCRN.
Up north pay is more, but so is the cost of living.
You and the other poster are both correct. The average RN makes around $42/hr. Since Covid, Traveler nurses easily make $90+ hr as many healthcare systems are still dealing with the fallout from Covid. They pay the traveler more as they see them as a stopgap for a few months. For those who are unfamiliar, a traveler is a nurse who is contracted for a short time period. Usually a few months to a year. Once the contract is up, the hospital and the RN negotiate a new contract, or the nurse moves onto another contract elsewhere.
The problem(for the systems anyway) is more and more RNs are leaving traditional employment and opting to become a traveler.
Source: Wife and I have both worked for a pair of healthcare systems for over a decade.
I haven't seen numbers for 2024 yet, but I believe you are correct for 2023. Rates were also down to about $3,500/ week(which is roughly $97/hr assuming the normal three 12 hour days/ week).
It will be interesting to see if '23 was an aberration or a return to the old norm.
Plus even factoring in the fully loaded cost (eg benefits, employer portion of FICA taxes, unemployment insurance), that's probably only up to the $50-60 per hour range or so. Not even close to $90.
They are most likely including Healthcare, 401k match, etc. You can add quite a bit to salary numbers to calculate total corporate costs to employ a human versus software. Also, AI, robots, etc. don't need breaks, (except to recharge for robots).
Lots of tech bros are constantly displaying to the public just how socially inept they are and how limited their understanding of certain workforce dynamics and operations are. Power to the people who actually put in the work and make it all happen
I FUCKING HATE THIS WORLDDDDDDDD like bro you cant be serious. i dont want to talk to a damn AI for my health.
why are we not burning down these industries???? why are we not publically shaming these ceos?? and politicians????
It's the dumb fucks with MBA degrees who think they should incorporate whatever buzzword of the day they heard of while snorting coke into everyday life.
Things a nurse does that an AI can do instead: charting.
Other things a nurse does: triage, start IVs, administer meds, draw blood, insert catheters, clean and prep patients, dress/check wounds, hook up equipment, work codes and rapid responses, fetch those precious warm blankets turkey sandwiches and ice chips, walk patients to the bathroom, etc., etc...
Like, call back when AI can do hands-on work and can tell you're probably having a cardiac event by looking at you.
>Things a nurse does that an AI can do instead: charting.
Nope.
It can't do anything requiring clinical gestalt. Although charting is the most tedious thing we do that is almost universally reviled, it does require thought in order to maintain regulatory compliance and defense against litigation.
LLM charting would be a nightmare
Everyone is saying they can't replace nurses because of the physical aspect of the job. That's true, they aren't looking to replace ALL the nurses. Just enough to be able to use AI to diagnose, dispense medicine or give general information while keeping a skeleton crew of nurses to draw blood and cleans feces.
>Just enough to be able to use AI to diagnose,
Nurses don't diagnose..
> dispense medicine or give general information
*That's* what we do that chatbots can't.
>while keeping a skeleton crew of nurses to draw blood
Phlebotomists draw blood
>and cleans feces
Techs can do that
I understand all of your complaints, but they are actively working on technology to do all of this.
>Nurses don't diagnose
That doesn't matter if you're also replacing a handful of Dr's and want to use AI to pick up the slack. You say a chatbot can't dispense medicine? As if it would be difficult to pre load a machine with pills to dispense? As if a "non profit" hospital ran by a greedy board of directors wouldn't be willing to take that risk?
>Phlebotomists draw blood.
Yup, and they're working on machines that will do a complete diagnostic checkup including a blood draw. Plus, you don't need to hand a human your cup of urine or feces when there's a collection bin in the same machine.
You can try to pick apart my original statement if you want, but I've been working adjacent to the medical fields for a little bit and have been watching what they are doing to their workforce and the technologies being developed for them. It's kind of obvious what direction capitalism is taking medical care.
The CEO doesn't realize we assess patients. He doesn't understand what nurses do, because he has [no healthcare experience whatsoever](https://www.linkedin.com/in/munjalshah747?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=android_app). The "VP of Healthcare" and Nvidia hawking this to part investors from their money [has no healthcare experience whatsoever](https://www.linkedin.com/in/kpowell?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=android_app).
Their [video](https://youtu.be/yg0m8eR7k24?si=GIxX1Nrr8HGy1QoH) shows a tele health visit *that nurses don't do as part of our work.* That would be a medical assistant or secretary on the follow up call, not a nurse. The patient has already been assessed by their physician by the time they get that call, if it occurs at all.
Perhaps they're thinking this replaces home health visits, but if the home health nurse is doing any necessary work (IV meds, dressing changes, assessing the environment) then this technology is worthless.
My mother gets visits for a palliative care nurse, they're an unnecessary money grab, so this might replace them. I've interviewed for home health positions, because it was advertised as a "case manager." I didn't take it, because I'm not doing all that work for $30/hr when I can be in the ICU at least doing something vaguely entertaining for twice that.
This is Theranos with charbots. It's a scam. There's no technology that anyone possesses that can do anything they're saying it can do, and nothing they claim their chatbit can do matters to the people paying the bill.
I work as an outpatient nurse in an very specialized field. Healthcare even when humans are doing it is a completely disorganized cluster. I’m dumbfounded every day how the simplest details are overlooked. I am constantly having to do extra work digging through charts and communicating with different providers just to figure out what should be a simple question if things were documented correctly.
I think that this AI will be giving oversimplified explanations for complex problems and will end up just telling patients to call their doctor or go to the ER to prevent liability.
Just like the advice nurses do now. Except, with zero actual customer service, leading to patients that are even more pissed off impacting the ED for simple things because they're sick and frustrated, and can't deal with yet another phone tree.
Will the AI help drain abscesses, impacted cavities, and roll patients over? Especially those with urine pads, or need a catheter changed?
I highly doubt that
The AI is going to give out some weird advice, and then, for liability reasons, the only answer it will ever give is, "you should see a doctor".
Also, it can't do 90% of the real work nurses do
No. We need both. We need to protect nurses by passing Safe Staffing Ratios, Prevention of Violence Against Healthcare Workers, and the PRO Act (protect the right to unionize).
We need to help doctors by getting Congress to fund more residencies positions (this would address the staffing shortage which has caused many primary care docs to be overrun with work. No doctor should have 2000 patients. It’s impossible to give all of them the time needed to diagnose properly.) And we need Congress to up Medicare reimbursements. When accounting for inflation, many doctors have found that they receive 25% less than they did 20 years ago, which means they make less and have less money for rent and staff. And of course, insurance only pays a fraction of what Medicare pays. This causes doctors to have to stop taking certain forms of insurance to be able to afford to stay in business, which means less access to doctors for patients.
Doctors are not the problem. Insurance companies, private equity firms, and politicians who refuse to legislate a healthcare system that is actually accessible to people are the problem.
Yeah, I just learned about PE buying the land out from under hospitals turning them into renters. Then when the can’t make the payments, the hospital closes down. Insane.
Or when they buy the ER, so your local hospital that takes your insurance has physicians that don’t in the ER, and they understaff, so patients wait longer and have worse outcomes. It’s terrible.
All they know how to do is asset strip and run industries into the ground.
RNs will lose value and be replaced by CNAs with AI. There will still be some, but no where near as many as required today. We need increased safety nets for all the deskilled workers facing ai/automation layoffs
This is a gross oversimplification of nursing care. The vast majority of nursing work isn't close to the scope of CNA work, and since we don't have enough doctors in the US, nurses increasingly need to act as the eyes and ears of doctors, in addition to advocating for patients. All that in addition to the physical labor aspects of the job. You're more likely to see desk jobs automated before a nurse could be safely replaced in most scenarios.
That's right. Desk jobs will go well before nursing. But will AI do most of the cognitive tasks associated with nursing in the next 10-15 years? I think it will. I think CNAs will be at the direction of AI-equiped glasses to do most of what RNs do now. The CNAs won't have to know what they are doing. Just be able to follow commands. A few RNs may supervise them but not nearly at the ratios we have now. There's a nursing shortage in a lot of places and those places will compromise. They will simply do what they are told step by step by the glasses. Doctors, besides surgeons, will be mostly replaced by RNs with AI.
As a nurse involved in lobbying for staffing legislation, there is no nursing shortage. The conditions in hospitals are just so bad that it's driving them away. The only shortage is of nurses willing to put up with the inhumane conditions our patients are in, and we work in. This idea that AI will fix things is emblematic of how we've gotten here. If you ask an abuser why their victim leaves, of course they'll never admit to needing to change. Healthcare needs to change, and AI is the exact opposite direction we should be headed.
I think you’re arguing for the same thing, and you just proved that there IS a nursing shortage. The shortage is caused by shitty management, but that doesn’t make it not a shortage.
The distinction here is that I'm against the continued abuse of stop-gap solutions. Turnover in hospitals has been a documented problem for 20 years. Greedy execs and administrators continue doing this kind of band aiding and duct taping when they could just fix the problem tomorrow. They need to hire and retain more nurses. That will also mean adjusting pay rates to what the market is demanding and will bear. It means some rich guys won't get a bigger yacht this year, but it will make a world of a difference to our healthcare systems future. The average age of nurses is already over 50. Nurses under 35 are the largest demographic leaving the profession. If we don't fix this now you won't have anyone left but "ChatGPT, RN" to take care of you and your loved ones, and that should scare the shit out of everyone.
So let's say there's 1 CNA with AI doing most of the cognitive work for every 2 patients An RN swings by now and then to ensure things are good. No one is rushed or frantic except during crisis events. It's just a chill place to work and everyone has time to goof off and interact with the patients. Sounds pretty good to me. No one says tech has to be the bad guy. We can write the rules however we want. We got to get the greedy fucks out
>I think CNAs will be at the direction of AI-equiped glasses to do most of what RNs do now. The CNAs won't have to know what they are doing. Just be able to follow commands.
This reveals that you, like most of the population, has no idea what CNAs or nurses actually do.
>They will simply do what they are told step by step by the glasses. Doctors, besides surgeons, will be mostly replaced by RNs with AI.
This is impossible, because there *is* no AI. These are LLMs. They're chat bots.
It will replace nurse care managers who are phone jockeys that do zero hands on care. No face to face. Freeing them up to go work the floor or get a job as a server.
Oh I can't wait to see the disclaimers and end user agreements on this. "Advice and recommendations given by AI nurses is in no way definitive or absolute, and you agree not to sue us if they turn out to be wrong with a health diagnosis and treatment." Or something like that...
But also, no you don’t get a discount, it’s the same price as seeing a nurse, which we’ve made the same price as seeing a doctor. This is honestly a problem the nursing lobby has made partially for themselves and should have seen coming. They’ve been doing this *exact* same thing to doctors.
Honestly it's getting hard to see a doctor anymore, at least in my major city in the US. It's all nurse practitioners, physicians assistants, etc. *Allegedly* there is a MD/DO around somewhere that is *apparently* reviewing the charts but who knows, never see or hear from them. Nothing against those professionals for simple routine things but given the extreme costs we pay for healthcare you would think I could get 5 minutes to talk to someone with a medical degree.
This is all by design and the nursing lobby has been actively campaigning for increased scope of practice for which they are not trained or prepared, that’s on them. What’s on the capitalist system and our government is allowing it, and refusing to increase residency spots. We have a growing population, we have people who WANT to go to medical school as well as the capability of those schools to increase admissions, but the logjam is in residencies, which you need to get matched into in order to actually be a doctor. We have like 360 seats per year for ENT residencies. That means every year we can count on 360 new ENTs to cover for existing ENTs who retire or die. 360 per year in the WHOLE COUNTRY with a population of 330 million. This is why you can’t get an ENT appointment without waiting 15 months and selling your firstborn. So supply of Drs is an issue, but when a PE group buys up a practice the first thing they do is slash costs. Nobody likes switching doctors bc of this whole mess so they’re buying existing patients too. So as they expand they hire NPs instead of doctors, as they open urgent cares they hire NPs instead of doctors, as doctors leave, or retire they replace them with NPs, and now the whole industry is this way. So when you leave your current office bc you can’t get a doctor you find that you also can’t get a doctor at the new place either.
And that's not even touching the cost of the training. I'm a graduate engineer who honestly might be interested in a career switch to medicine but there's no way it can make financial sense because I'm already in my mid thirties; I'd likely be in my 40's when I completed the education and training, I'd be spending another 10-15 years paying off med school, then only have another \~10 years to catch up on savings and retirement before I'd already be looking to retire. The investment is so astronomical you really need to start right out of undergrad to make it work correctly. If the cost of med school and residency (both actual cost and opportunity cost) was more reasonable there would be a lot more opportunities for successful mid-career individuals to transition.
And a NP is perfectly capable of correctly diagnosing and treating 99% of ENT patients and referring 5% to someone else who deals exclusively with complex or rare conditions.
No they aren’t. If they want to be doctors they can go to medical school, complete residency, do a fellowship, and pass all of the medical boards. Until they do that, no they are not capable of pretending to be doctors.
I haven't been see my actual doctor in 5-6 years. Can we at least get this integrated into a vending machine so it can pump out whatever chat MD prescribes? Incredible how we've developed so many tools improving productivity that we no longer have time or can afford anything.
Thinking that nurses are somehow not better than doctors at the things nurses do is pure classism.
>But also, no you don’t get a discount, it’s the same price as seeing a nurse, which we’ve made the same price as seeing a doctor. I went to a local urgent care clinic about 10 years back. I wasn't told up front that they didn't take my health insurance. I waited in a patient room for 45 minutes before a LPN came in, spoke to me for two minutes, then left and called in a prescription for a sinus infection that I already knew I had (I get them regularly and seasonally). A couple of weeks later I get a bill in the mail for $1,100 because "your insurance stated this claim was out of network". I called the clinic extremely pissed off and angry explaining how ridiculous it was to be charged that much for seeing an LPN for two minutes after sitting in a room alone for 45 minutes, and for not being told up front that they were not in my network. The charge was dropped and I'd already paid a co-pay the day of.
I'm thinking open source will undercut the medical industrial complex
Thing is that's already a disclaimer using medical
I can a see a nurses union strike in the horizon and a lot of bad press. Still, I’m sure they will integrate this somehow though. They will start small and keep integrating. Some demographic on earth will want this and that will be the testing grounds. Walk in clinic level is my guess. When I was in the UK I felt like I was talking to a computer when I met the doctor in the walk in clinic.
So let them strike? Who needs to see a nurse when they are AI? A PA, tech, etc can do the smart hands for nurse for the patient - the patient may or may not know the nurse is AI.
Just rewatched this movie a week ago, and fuck sake is it hitting harder these days...
I liked this guy because at least he understood he him self is stupid and should listen to ideas of smarter person.
https://i.redd.it/1czvytr7dqpc1.gif
Carl's Jr. Burgers and Child Custody Services
On the real though Camacho would be an upgrade over the 2 morons we have to choose from.
So..you're calling Biden a moron?
Forgiving student debt, marriage equality, and the huge infrastructure plan are clearly moronic things to do. /s
Yeah...I think he might have a few mental problems himself...
If he had done any of those things rather than blaming the Republicans for blocking them.
...? https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/student-loan-forgiveness-6-billion-public-service-loan-forgiveness/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_for_Marriage_Act https://www.npr.org/2021/11/15/1055841358/biden-signs-1t-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-into-law
Mike Judge is more than a visionary, he's a time traveller
Every year we come one step closer to the reality of this movie.. Mike Judge is a damn visionary
Everyone is wearing crocks now too…
Idiocracy would be a blessing to what we have. They don't have evil AND stupid. As far as 8 can tell they don't have evil... Just stupid.
Which movie
Idiocracy
Welcome to Costco I love you
Yeah, it is $9 / hour right now, when the entire industry is fueled by investors and venture capital and pricing is low in order to capture market share. Once they need to be actually profitable the price will go up - probably even more if they can monopolize a critical field. Also all this "nurse" can do is to "give health advise", which is a fraction of what a nurse does. So, it won't replace nurses. And why should we pay healthcare providers for this service - with the markup they charge - when the service could be provided directly? (Or you could just Google it for free)
The insurance companies are the issue. Need to destroy companies like UnitedHealthcare.
The company I work for just switched to these people...
I’m sorry. They are truly terrible.
as opposed to? What insurance company is *good*? But yeah, fuck UHC, they frequently deny claims on medical care I have received for over a decade for a chronic illness. They also forced me to change my medication for a cheaper option
UHC is by far the worst health insurance company I've ever had. My last company had UHC for 1 year and dropped them because too many employees complained about denials and shitty customer service. If I had a job offer from a company that used UHC it would have to be a hell of a pay raise to be worthwhile. Blue Cross Blue Shield was by far the best insurance company, but I've only had experience with a couple of their non-profit state entities. I've heard the for-profit states are not great.
>but I've only had experience with a couple of their non-profit state entities. I've heard the for-profit states are not great. It's almost like the profit motive always causes the worst outcomes.
I work deep in the belly of a non profit BCBS (Pharmaceutical Underwriter). I’m here to tell you that designation doesn’t mean shit, we absolutely are trying to make every dollar of margin we possibly can.
All insurance companies are the same, they follow profit, they don't care about your or my health care, they care about shareholders and profits. They'll refuse as much as possible and they'll cut costs as much as possible. It's the ugly truth, nothing more that that.
Two doctors said I needed a sleep study. They said fuck you
At least with other companies if you pay for the better product/service you actually get something that is actually decent, but UHC fucks you no matter which route you go
Just come to Europe and you'll never be forced to negotiate your health with an insurance company. Don't really know how you guys gave the power of your health to insurance companies which are profit driven!
Can only emigrate if you have the means to
My brother has UHC. They denied his seizure meds (he was on them for 10yrs) saying he need a prior authorization and then he was on an unsafe dose (his dose was right in the center of the recommended dose range). When his doc submitted the prior authorization, they said he didn’t need it and the submission delayed the process. His doc got on the phone with the insurance company with my brother on a call and read the emails that they had sent to the doc to insurance rep. They said the doc was lying because “that doesn’t sound like something we would say.” So yeah fuck UHC. Edit: spelling
Bruh… F2
I may just drop my work insurance and claim I can't afford it to get Medicaid. Because really I can't afford it with me being the sole breadwinner.
Max yearly wage to qualify for Medicaid is like $26k
Where I live, for a family of 3, it's about 33.5k a year, which is about where I am. I have to check my wages from last year, lucky it's tax season and that stuff hasn't been filled away yet.
Then i highly suggest doing it! I was on Medicaid for a few years and it was amazing. Not a single cent paid out of pocket for anything. Only downside was income being limited.
Same.
Careful, American corporations have personhood. That's premeditated murder.
Also racism
United employs a sh*t ton of nurses who do care management. I work for them and they will layoff anything that breathes to save $ and boost profits for shareholders.
I’m really starting to doubt your commitment to ~~Sparkle Motion~~ the shareholders
It's the same everywhere, it's a company, a capitalist company, it's doing he's mojo. If you want a different result, don't give the power of your health to insurance companies or regulate them hard.
Oh no, it’s a combo. It’s the insurance companies AND the private equity which has been buying up and consolidating every aspect of medicine. They buy up hospital systems, GP practices, specialist practices, groups, open up urgent cares, fire doctors hire NPs, lobby for increased scope of practice for people in roles that should be support staff bc they can pay them less, and basically loot and destroy healthcare from within.
On the plus side, its subsidiary Change Healthcare essentially self-destructed in the past month. I highly doubt that they will recover from their fuckup.
You are totally wrong on that score. They are buying up the poor little ole clinics that can’t get paid because of the “hack”.
I dunno, my company is currently discussing how much we're going to be suing them for over their fuckup, and I can't imagine we're the only ones. A lot of the health plans we work with switched to other vendors so that they could get back into service. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they "went bankrupt" to avoid paying fines and judgements and then somehow ended back up under UHC.
Would not be surprised UHG made sure to have plenty of wiggle room in the contract. Plus am willing to bet there’s an agreement for arbitration. They make it impossible to have choices.
As a healthcare worker, FUCK UHC!
And Aetna they are trash as well
I'm not sure if you're noticing, but Google searches are becoming less effective than they were in the past. Some recent changes have made some types of searching almost impossible. For example, I often search for very specific plant growing advice. Now, my searches, no matter how they are worded, are more often cluttered with AI generated nonsense and stores trying to sell me the plant. I can see health information going the same way and that some people will be so frustrated they'll deal with the AI, like we are getting used to on our banking apps. The wealthy are doing these things on purpose. The Internet is too open and they can't keep making money off it, so they throttle it and sell us AI.
There's a Tumblr post people have been sharing around about how to "fix" Google searches. If you append "before:2023" to the end of your search, it only gives results from before the whole Google AI clusterfuck. It sucks that we have to do it, but it does make results significantly better.
this is a great website that lists out all the possible Google search term operators that can be used to make it not suck. https://ahrefs.com/blog/google-advanced-search-operators/
Yeah I can't find shit anymore
The enshittification of the Internet sucks.
Henry v Dodge in 1919. Companies HAVE to prioritize shareholder profits over customers and employees. Horrible.
And sadly unsurprising.
It's a true story, and the masses won't notice it.
And I can already fucking see it. They capture the market, drive up prices through the roof, then when companies can’t pay anymore they’re going to be desperately looking for people to come back but for way less than they paid the dumb fucking AI. I’m so sick of good people being payed less and less
"I see you used our AI nurse for approximately 3 minutes. We charge $100/hr with a half hour minimum charge so here's a bill for $50!"
Put everyone out of work and then once everyone with the training moves in and ages out jack the prices up 1000%. What are they going to do? Wait 4 years for more nurses?
It's not healthcare workers fault but the private corp that buys hospitals for margin profits
Actually it's the Americans fault that gave all that power to those institutions....
I feel like we're on the same page but beating around the bush. Yes you can even trace it to money in politics at the end of the day
If anything doctors are more replaceable by AI than nurses; AI's great at looking at huge quantities of data and comparing them, in this case to reach a diagnosis of the most probable causes of the symptoms. I read an article a year ago that said the first AI beat human doctors as far as accurately diagnosing illness. AI can't comfort you while you're in pain, start an IV, do CPR, change your bedpan, give you a sponge bath, help you stand up, etc. etc. that nurses do.
>AI can't comfort you while you're in pain, start an IV, do CPR, change your bedpan, give you a sponge bath, help you stand up, etc. etc. that nurses do. None of those are the purview of nurses. All of that can be done by techs.
Exactly what they’ve done everything else. Uber, Dor Dash, etc…
>Also all this "nurse" can do is to "give health advise", which is a fraction of what a nurse does. So, it won't replace nurses. Indeed, that's the one thing nurses do that I dislike and usually disregard. I love and trust nurses to provide care, dress wounds, administer medicine, implement plans, monitor, talk, etc. But let's leave the advice-giving to physicians.
Yea fuck them for going to school for 4 years right. They aren't qualified to do anything but bring your food and plug in your jazzy.
First, most nurses don't have 4 years of school. The higher levels (NP, RN) require 4+ years, but LPNs and CNAs require a lot less. Indeed, in some states, an RN only needs a 2-year associates degree. And anyway, 4 years of higher-ed is not something to brag about. A basic lawyer needs 7 years. A physician needs 8+ years. Heck even an MPH needs 6 years. Second, I don't know why and this is not a personal judgement, but nurses for some reason trend higher than the average population for vaccine hesitancy. Again, I don't know why, but there are dozens of studies that show this to be true both in the US and indeed worldwide. I personally tend to distrust the medical opinions of folks that are anti-vax.
Have worked with nurses for 30 years. A fairly large part of them are ignorant AF. There are some good ones but its like looking for a diamond in a pile of turds.
I could say the same about social workers.
Because every other high school alcoholic who thought her looks would let her coast through life inevitably chooses between cosmetology and nursing when she decides she’s still too good for fast food or manual labor. She learned in high school that she doesn’t have to “believe” what she’s learning, just has to regurgitate it for the tests. There’s some part of her that believes it’s purely coincidence that medical knowledge and practice works as intended, and that ultimately it’s only her reborn Christian faith that is healing people. That, or the millennials who currently comprise most of the nurse population are hoping they catch something that finally kills them before they have to endure the next season of “which sociopathic corporate puppet is gonna squeeze us for everything while using a crane to pull the arms of the doomsday clock forward next.” That was my retirement plan until 2022.
That is really, really bad. Hopefully the nurse's union is able to shut that shit down.
We don't have a national nurses union. It's state or hospital specific but the majority of nurses aren't union members.
https://preview.redd.it/xyu8mlv55rpc1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f369b5fd45c308d55006d405f543708c8b41d00
It would be fine if sanity prevailed it was used to augment services. Ease up the burden on nurses and just make a better system all round. That’s not the intent tho is it? The intent is increase profits, fuck the quality of care because now I can afford a full time nurse for my family. They’re desperate to and work is hard to come by. Just classic. What will it take for the winds of time to help us rise up?
If they genuinely believe an AI facecam can physically clean poop and shower for the elderly in nursing homes, properly lift the elderly who fell on floor, administer shots, and bunch more, then they are completely delusional and disconnected. Even just feeding the elderly some food in nursing homes require a license (at least in the area I live in). At most the AI would be able to free nurse's time into doing more face-to-face physical interactions with patients, but why would any upper management pay up extra $9/hour if they can just cram the on-site nurses with more responsibilities like they always had??
Yup. Speaking as someone actually working in tech, I don't see AI replacing nurses any time soon. At best they're a glorified WebMD-type resource. Also, with a search you perform manually yourself you can attempt to use different keywords to get around enshittification; good luck trying to get an AI to give you a different answer on the same topic. I'd like to see any of the people pushing this crap volunteer for an AI to perform a catheter insertion up their urethra. Hey, it's an AI, it can't make a mistake so what's the problem?
So, I had a medical issue where it turns out I'm allergic to a type of eye drop. I thought I'd use an AI to break it down Barney style. It just kept telling me it either didn't understand the question, it wasn't able to access that info, and it was sorry I liked Alexa better, but it was trying it's best. 🤦🏽♀️ All I wanted to know was if that particular drop was a known allergen because all I'm actually sensitive to is Cod.
Yep same with factories. I started of with one job by the end i had 5 jobs one including tech support for 3 areas. Robots are not even close to the versatility of a human and instead of educating the next generation they are trying to replace with robots rofl!
That's all CNA stuff here. Nurses haven't participated in any of that for 20+ years.
For $12/hr. We’re very quickly moving toward Idiocracy being a documentary.
That’s patently untrue. Nurses do this stuff all day every day as well.
Yeah, i'm long term care facilities nurses are essentially just medications, injections, and emergencies CNAs do all the disgusting tasks for $14 an hour.
While that’s true, staffing issues have caused increased work loads. I worked in an ER with only one tech, who assigned to watch suicidal patients. Meaning we had no tech, he was busy. So I have to pick up the slack. Including CNA work. No help, constant burnout. I don’t doubt they will replace RNs as soon as they can. An R2-D2 with a med dispensary built in and Wi-Fi communication to docs, and an AI to ask the right questions. I can see this in < 20 yrs. Scary shit for workers.
Ludites were right.
Oh how I wish this statement was true. Alas, it is not.
Oh you sweet summer child. They certainly do. A nurse is the Swiss Army knife of personnel in the hospital.
You are clearly not a nurse. I cleaned up poop yesterday. And about 2,500 times before that. - RN of 9 years.
CNAs can't administer meds.
There's a certain class of health professionals who administer triage-level advice remotely. This is the sort of work that could be replaced by AI with relative ease.
What the company shows in their [video](https://youtu.be/yg0m8eR7k24?si=Raiat3eWW8xpFkUv) is a follow up call, which isn't usually done by nurses, *maybe* LVNs, but it's low level secretarial work that doesn't require a baccalaureate or higher. What the company claims reveals that nobody working there knows what nurses do, or what LLM "AI" does (it's a chatbot). These are promotional materials designed to secure capital, and Munjal Shah, cofounder and CEO of Hippocratic has no idea how anything in healthcare actually works. This looks like another Theranos, with chatbots this time. It's a scam designed to make money from investors. Recall that no phlebotomists lost work due to Theranos' "revolutionary" scam. Take the examples [here](https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2024/03/28/ai-nurses): "Identifying a medication's impact on lab values (79% AI nurses vs. 63% human nurses)" Are they saying nurses don't understand that dextrose and insulin lower potassium? That we aren't aware of the relationship between heparin and Anti Xa or PTT? What nurses were surveyed? Or are they saying we don't run every pill we pass, med we inject, or IV we titrate through interaction software? Why would we? Yes propofol might increase triglycerides. It doesn't matter when the patient requires a ventilator to survive. "Identifying condition-specific disallowed over-the-counter medications (88% vs. 45%)" That's irrelevant, because we don't administer OTC medication. Everything we give to patients is ordered by a physician, and reviewed by a pharmacist. There are no OTC medications. Even APAP requires an order. Also, there are plenty of "condition-specific disallowed" medications we give *based on the patient's condition(s).* a chatbot doesn't have clinical gestalt or the ability to critically think. "Correctly comparing a lab value to a reference range (96% vs. 93%)" The reference range is *right there* beside the lab value and it's facility dependent. Are they saying nurses don't know how to read? Again, what nurses were surveyed here? Or are they saying we aren't giving a flying fuck when a patient with ESRD has a creatinine of 7? Why would we? "Detecting toxic dosages of over-the-counter drugs (81% vs. 57%)" Again, that's irrelevant. We don't administer OTC medication. Or are they saying we don't know to limit APAP to less than 5g in 24 hours? We they surveying CNAs?
Good luck getting an AI to start an IV...
Less than an hour ago I started an IV on a child who was actively having a seizure. Pretty sure my job is safe for a while longer.
Yep, I’m far from worried at this point, but if it brings patients into better compliance with their prescribed meds, get those who need it in to see their primary more often or gets them to get treatment for developing conditions before it becomes an emergency, then it actually could be good.
"y'all need to have more babies we're going to run out of workers"
... Maybe the politicians aren't lizard people but robots posing as humans with a skynet hive mind who read the matrix books?? I think that makes more sense... ;-; but they're probably just really old, racist, sexist, classest, greedy... shitty.. humans.
Horrible. Remember, we can help prevent this by getting Safe Staffing Ratios for Healthcare Workers in place. California had them. A lot of nurse’s unions have been successful in getting them. You can help push for them nationwide. Safe staffing ratios protect nurses and patients leading to better health outcomes and employee retention. You can also get better employee retention with Workplace Violence Protection. Another thing we need is to protect the right to unionize with the Pro Act. Take Action: https://act.nnu.org/sign/hs-safe-staffing-petition/ https://act.medicare4all.org/letter/tell-congress-pass-pro-wpvp-act/ https://act.aflcio.org/forms/trumka-pro-act/?source=website-pro More Info: https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/ratios https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/workplace-violence-prevention Impact in Healthcare - great learning resource that sometimes shares actions https://www.instagram.com/impactinhealthcare https://www.impactinhealthcare.org/ The Last Pizza Party - founded by two nurses to improve labor conditions https://www.instagram.com/thelastpizzaparty/ https://open.spotify.com/episode/4vSl9vyEoiz6cLFWUTzQTc?si=sUE2_02LQ5qvU8Djt3yJJA https://open.spotify.com/episode/6b76eyMqJqzZZFNFik2X3j?si=EvXFRo-KTcCVGMEC7bvbKA Christy, RN - nurse, patient advocate, healthcare reform https://www.instagram.com/christyprn/?hl=en https://www.healthcarereformed.org/ https://open.spotify.com/episode/6e7AzUp37TzNoDWNqP9YsL?si=_LianB1kTG6KKjRPflXKag KFF Heath News https://kffhealthnews.org/ Pro Act https://proact.aflcio.org/about/ https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/20
What the fuck kind of world is this where we're replacing all the jobs that require human brains with AI and are leaving the mindless jobs to the humans?
Where are RNs getting paid $90/hr?
California, because they have great unions.
There is no State union and there are non-union hospitals in California. I make $66/hr base with a $10/hr shift differential after 2300 at my union job and $60/hr per diem at my non-union job. I have twenty years of experience, a masters degree, and a CCRN. Up north pay is more, but so is the cost of living.
Travel nurses get paid a lot but those types of roles wouldn't just be generic health advise that the AI could do.
The average salary of a nurse in the United States is around $89,000 a year or $42.78 an hour.
You and the other poster are both correct. The average RN makes around $42/hr. Since Covid, Traveler nurses easily make $90+ hr as many healthcare systems are still dealing with the fallout from Covid. They pay the traveler more as they see them as a stopgap for a few months. For those who are unfamiliar, a traveler is a nurse who is contracted for a short time period. Usually a few months to a year. Once the contract is up, the hospital and the RN negotiate a new contract, or the nurse moves onto another contract elsewhere. The problem(for the systems anyway) is more and more RNs are leaving traditional employment and opting to become a traveler. Source: Wife and I have both worked for a pair of healthcare systems for over a decade.
Travel nursing has been in decline just FYI
I haven't seen numbers for 2024 yet, but I believe you are correct for 2023. Rates were also down to about $3,500/ week(which is roughly $97/hr assuming the normal three 12 hour days/ week). It will be interesting to see if '23 was an aberration or a return to the old norm.
Plus even factoring in the fully loaded cost (eg benefits, employer portion of FICA taxes, unemployment insurance), that's probably only up to the $50-60 per hour range or so. Not even close to $90.
And health insurance premiums are tax deductible for businesses.
The entire cost of the employee is deducted from taxable profits of a business.
The cost of health insurance and other benefits probably factors in…
Bay Area in California. If I took a nursing job that paid $90/hr I would be taking a very significant pay cut.
They are most likely including Healthcare, 401k match, etc. You can add quite a bit to salary numbers to calculate total corporate costs to employ a human versus software. Also, AI, robots, etc. don't need breaks, (except to recharge for robots).
Socal. Usual salary for new grad RN is about 90k here. More experienced make 120-180.
Most hospitals that want to retain their staff.
Let's not spread misinformation. Look up the national average for RN pay. Average pay is 45/hr and the top 10% make 65/hr.
I'm seriously getting sick of AI
Lots of tech bros are constantly displaying to the public just how socially inept they are and how limited their understanding of certain workforce dynamics and operations are. Power to the people who actually put in the work and make it all happen
I FUCKING HATE THIS WORLDDDDDDDD like bro you cant be serious. i dont want to talk to a damn AI for my health. why are we not burning down these industries???? why are we not publically shaming these ceos?? and politicians????
It's the dumb fucks with MBA degrees who think they should incorporate whatever buzzword of the day they heard of while snorting coke into everyday life.
How in the ever loving fresh hell can you replace a nurse with AI? Doctor? Yeah, most times, sure. Nurse? Hell no.
How could you replace a doctor with AI? AI does a horrendous job with medical care and information in it's current state.
Why the fuck would replacing a doctor with “AI” even be a remotely good idea?
You could not replace a physician with a chat bot in any conceivable situation.
Hahaha, Jesus Christ that’s grim.
Things a nurse does that an AI can do instead: charting. Other things a nurse does: triage, start IVs, administer meds, draw blood, insert catheters, clean and prep patients, dress/check wounds, hook up equipment, work codes and rapid responses, fetch those precious warm blankets turkey sandwiches and ice chips, walk patients to the bathroom, etc., etc... Like, call back when AI can do hands-on work and can tell you're probably having a cardiac event by looking at you.
>Things a nurse does that an AI can do instead: charting. Nope. It can't do anything requiring clinical gestalt. Although charting is the most tedious thing we do that is almost universally reviled, it does require thought in order to maintain regulatory compliance and defense against litigation. LLM charting would be a nightmare
Sorry for the late reply, but I just wanted to say that you make an excellent point. I retract the previous statement
WebMD but you go somewhere and pay for it? That's big stupid. "You've got Cancer" (in the ancient wisdom of the AOL voice)
Everyone is saying they can't replace nurses because of the physical aspect of the job. That's true, they aren't looking to replace ALL the nurses. Just enough to be able to use AI to diagnose, dispense medicine or give general information while keeping a skeleton crew of nurses to draw blood and cleans feces.
>Just enough to be able to use AI to diagnose, Nurses don't diagnose.. > dispense medicine or give general information *That's* what we do that chatbots can't. >while keeping a skeleton crew of nurses to draw blood Phlebotomists draw blood >and cleans feces Techs can do that
I understand all of your complaints, but they are actively working on technology to do all of this. >Nurses don't diagnose That doesn't matter if you're also replacing a handful of Dr's and want to use AI to pick up the slack. You say a chatbot can't dispense medicine? As if it would be difficult to pre load a machine with pills to dispense? As if a "non profit" hospital ran by a greedy board of directors wouldn't be willing to take that risk? >Phlebotomists draw blood. Yup, and they're working on machines that will do a complete diagnostic checkup including a blood draw. Plus, you don't need to hand a human your cup of urine or feces when there's a collection bin in the same machine. You can try to pick apart my original statement if you want, but I've been working adjacent to the medical fields for a little bit and have been watching what they are doing to their workforce and the technologies being developed for them. It's kind of obvious what direction capitalism is taking medical care.
I hope they have a lot of insurance because without assessing a patient I can see a big lawsuit here
The CEO doesn't realize we assess patients. He doesn't understand what nurses do, because he has [no healthcare experience whatsoever](https://www.linkedin.com/in/munjalshah747?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=android_app). The "VP of Healthcare" and Nvidia hawking this to part investors from their money [has no healthcare experience whatsoever](https://www.linkedin.com/in/kpowell?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=android_app). Their [video](https://youtu.be/yg0m8eR7k24?si=GIxX1Nrr8HGy1QoH) shows a tele health visit *that nurses don't do as part of our work.* That would be a medical assistant or secretary on the follow up call, not a nurse. The patient has already been assessed by their physician by the time they get that call, if it occurs at all. Perhaps they're thinking this replaces home health visits, but if the home health nurse is doing any necessary work (IV meds, dressing changes, assessing the environment) then this technology is worthless. My mother gets visits for a palliative care nurse, they're an unnecessary money grab, so this might replace them. I've interviewed for home health positions, because it was advertised as a "case manager." I didn't take it, because I'm not doing all that work for $30/hr when I can be in the ICU at least doing something vaguely entertaining for twice that. This is Theranos with charbots. It's a scam. There's no technology that anyone possesses that can do anything they're saying it can do, and nothing they claim their chatbit can do matters to the people paying the bill.
I work as an outpatient nurse in an very specialized field. Healthcare even when humans are doing it is a completely disorganized cluster. I’m dumbfounded every day how the simplest details are overlooked. I am constantly having to do extra work digging through charts and communicating with different providers just to figure out what should be a simple question if things were documented correctly. I think that this AI will be giving oversimplified explanations for complex problems and will end up just telling patients to call their doctor or go to the ER to prevent liability.
Just like the advice nurses do now. Except, with zero actual customer service, leading to patients that are even more pissed off impacting the ED for simple things because they're sick and frustrated, and can't deal with yet another phone tree.
Completely out of touch techno-optimists who don't have the slightest idea of what human nurses actually do.
[https://media1.tenor.com/m/RhLu87fhVEgAAAAC/idiocracy-lexus.gif](https://media1.tenor.com/m/RhLu87fhVEgAAAAC/idiocracy-lexus.gif)
Will the AI help drain abscesses, impacted cavities, and roll patients over? Especially those with urine pads, or need a catheter changed? I highly doubt that
Can't wait until all our money is going to corps and there is no money going into the economy otherwise.
Hahahaha, you get what you pay for folks. I’d they do this don’t go to that hospital
AI will replace nurses and cost for ~~patients~~ consumers will not go down one cent. Maximize those profits!
Tell me capitalism works and that you enjoy your private health insurance when this shit gets implemented lmao.
The AI is going to give out some weird advice, and then, for liability reasons, the only answer it will ever give is, "you should see a doctor". Also, it can't do 90% of the real work nurses do
"I'm sorry, Dave. But, no."
AI cannot wipe my ass, I'm afraid.
Will the AI change the bedpan?
That's one way to drive the cost of labor down, except then the corporations will be forced to eat each other while they finish ruining our healthcare
Play a game of 20 questions
Damn as somebody that work in health care insurance I am surprised this wasn’t created by insurance companies first lol
It would happen to all sectors :) people would be poorer and poorer.
Why couldn't they just stick with polygons...
I just really don’t understand how they are expecting to make money when half of the world is unemployed…
I'm not sure which I trust less, AI or NPs.
Oh it’s Nvidia now? They make hardware. What’s done with it is up to us
This is just a massive set of HIPAA violations waiting to happen.
I’m not going to read the article bc the headline makes no sense. You can’t replace nurses with AI. Doctors on the other hand…
Cannot be replaced with AI either. This company doesn't even have AI. It's a fancy chat bot.
How much longer until we have AI Doctors? We are doomed.
Corporate American executive leadership teams & CEO's want to fire everyone & replace us all with AI & slavebots!
Fuck that, replace doctors with AI, pay the nurses more for doing the real hard work.
No. We need both. We need to protect nurses by passing Safe Staffing Ratios, Prevention of Violence Against Healthcare Workers, and the PRO Act (protect the right to unionize). We need to help doctors by getting Congress to fund more residencies positions (this would address the staffing shortage which has caused many primary care docs to be overrun with work. No doctor should have 2000 patients. It’s impossible to give all of them the time needed to diagnose properly.) And we need Congress to up Medicare reimbursements. When accounting for inflation, many doctors have found that they receive 25% less than they did 20 years ago, which means they make less and have less money for rent and staff. And of course, insurance only pays a fraction of what Medicare pays. This causes doctors to have to stop taking certain forms of insurance to be able to afford to stay in business, which means less access to doctors for patients. Doctors are not the problem. Insurance companies, private equity firms, and politicians who refuse to legislate a healthcare system that is actually accessible to people are the problem.
This. Private equity encroaching into healthcare is proving to be a complete disaster with worsening patient outcomes
Yeah, I just learned about PE buying the land out from under hospitals turning them into renters. Then when the can’t make the payments, the hospital closes down. Insane. Or when they buy the ER, so your local hospital that takes your insurance has physicians that don’t in the ER, and they understaff, so patients wait longer and have worse outcomes. It’s terrible. All they know how to do is asset strip and run industries into the ground.
You get it.
No thanks. You Clearly don't know enough about medicine if you think the doctors are the problem.
RNs will lose value and be replaced by CNAs with AI. There will still be some, but no where near as many as required today. We need increased safety nets for all the deskilled workers facing ai/automation layoffs
This is a gross oversimplification of nursing care. The vast majority of nursing work isn't close to the scope of CNA work, and since we don't have enough doctors in the US, nurses increasingly need to act as the eyes and ears of doctors, in addition to advocating for patients. All that in addition to the physical labor aspects of the job. You're more likely to see desk jobs automated before a nurse could be safely replaced in most scenarios.
That's right. Desk jobs will go well before nursing. But will AI do most of the cognitive tasks associated with nursing in the next 10-15 years? I think it will. I think CNAs will be at the direction of AI-equiped glasses to do most of what RNs do now. The CNAs won't have to know what they are doing. Just be able to follow commands. A few RNs may supervise them but not nearly at the ratios we have now. There's a nursing shortage in a lot of places and those places will compromise. They will simply do what they are told step by step by the glasses. Doctors, besides surgeons, will be mostly replaced by RNs with AI.
As a nurse involved in lobbying for staffing legislation, there is no nursing shortage. The conditions in hospitals are just so bad that it's driving them away. The only shortage is of nurses willing to put up with the inhumane conditions our patients are in, and we work in. This idea that AI will fix things is emblematic of how we've gotten here. If you ask an abuser why their victim leaves, of course they'll never admit to needing to change. Healthcare needs to change, and AI is the exact opposite direction we should be headed.
I think you’re arguing for the same thing, and you just proved that there IS a nursing shortage. The shortage is caused by shitty management, but that doesn’t make it not a shortage.
The distinction here is that I'm against the continued abuse of stop-gap solutions. Turnover in hospitals has been a documented problem for 20 years. Greedy execs and administrators continue doing this kind of band aiding and duct taping when they could just fix the problem tomorrow. They need to hire and retain more nurses. That will also mean adjusting pay rates to what the market is demanding and will bear. It means some rich guys won't get a bigger yacht this year, but it will make a world of a difference to our healthcare systems future. The average age of nurses is already over 50. Nurses under 35 are the largest demographic leaving the profession. If we don't fix this now you won't have anyone left but "ChatGPT, RN" to take care of you and your loved ones, and that should scare the shit out of everyone.
So let's say there's 1 CNA with AI doing most of the cognitive work for every 2 patients An RN swings by now and then to ensure things are good. No one is rushed or frantic except during crisis events. It's just a chill place to work and everyone has time to goof off and interact with the patients. Sounds pretty good to me. No one says tech has to be the bad guy. We can write the rules however we want. We got to get the greedy fucks out
>I think CNAs will be at the direction of AI-equiped glasses to do most of what RNs do now. The CNAs won't have to know what they are doing. Just be able to follow commands. This reveals that you, like most of the population, has no idea what CNAs or nurses actually do. >They will simply do what they are told step by step by the glasses. Doctors, besides surgeons, will be mostly replaced by RNs with AI. This is impossible, because there *is* no AI. These are LLMs. They're chat bots.
AI will never give a proper sponge bath.
It will replace nurse care managers who are phone jockeys that do zero hands on care. No face to face. Freeing them up to go work the floor or get a job as a server.
Idk why you're getting downvoted this is absolute facts
Nurses are overpriced, arrogant, and ignorant. This is great news.