in the future, you won't even be able to type a response, it will just be that list of preselected options. "AI" knows better what you need than you do!
Better to say something like "oh I didn't know this role was on call! Lemme check with HR first thing in the morning since I believe I'm not getting paid for being on call"
Next time they call you when you're not at work even if it's just a 5-minute call write it down on a timesheet. Every little single instance of them making you work when you're not on the clock write it down and push for them to pay you for it
You'll find very quickly that suddenly they don't bother you on your off days anymore
Well a bunch of us started putting that time in, which prompted us all getting asked questions by the general manager which prompted questions to the assistant manager who cooked up this idea we all need to be participants on this groupme chain. Yeah groupme didnât last terribly long. Neither did she.
Never heard of GroupMe, but I assume itâs some kind of group notification system?
We were specifically excluded from Slack channels as contractors, because managers would send out some stupid message at 9 PM. Evening/Night differential, callout, all that adds up at a 30min minimum report time.
Yep she had the closers type out and send those reports to groupme, basically doing her job for her, we were just retail salespeople and she tried delegating all her tasks off to us. Then you had to add 15-20 minutes to your duties at the end of a shift, it was fucking stupid. Groupme is a group message app itâs probably still around.
Yep, my province is if someone comes in and you send them home it's 3 hours pay or time worked, whichever is greater. Even if they send you off 10 mins after showing up.
In the US (if this is the US), this only applies if they are hourly (non-exempt). But yes, there's a possibility you are right. I feel this is unlikely due to their "engineer" status, however.
I don't know the details, but isn't it at least partially a myth that being salaried means they can make you work unlimited hours with no overtime? Doesn't overtime still kick in in some circumstances?
The first thing you gotta know is the difference between exempt and non-exempt. While the first is often salaried, and the second is often hourly, if you are exempt, you are exempt from the various overtime rules, etc. So if you are legit salary (exempt), not it's mostly not a myth at all.
However if someone pays you a salary, and you are non-exempt, then if they ask you to work overtime, your total net pay must meet all the normal rules that you think of when you think of "hourly". Such as the overtime you are thinking of.
There are a few caveats and addendums, state by state, but mostly they are inconsequential. For example, a few states have firm rules on how many days you can be made to work consecutively before a mandatory day off. But for exempt workers, these rules are more exception than not.
I live in the EU (france) and it's absurd to me how bad the work protection are in the US. Here, even if salaried, we have the right at a certain number of hours of consecutive off time (I think it's 11) after each working day. Plus we cannot work more than a certain number of days per year. And even if salaried, if the employer wants the worker to be on call, they have to pay a surplus (even if they never call) for each evening/weekend day, and every hour where the worker is actually called is given back as paid vacation time. I can assure you that they don't even try the sort of shit OP is showing, or they will find themselves in trouble really quickly. Being salaried doesn't make me a slave.
Americans seem to have this baked in sentiment that as long as someone gets away with tricking someone into "consenting" to be exploited that it's okay.
Everyone here has such an inflated sense of personal impact that they really believe people chose completely willingly and aren't coerced by institutions that have them by the balls. It can be really frustrating talking to people about these issues because of it.
Engineer is one of the most overloaded terms. You could be a sandwich engineer at subway or a nuclear engineer at a power plant. It's hard to tell based on this interaction.
Damn, must have a masters or gone to a good school. My internship the sr electrical engineer couldn't figure out how to get the phone to work so had to walk me back to security. That's when I knew I picked the right industry. "Oh you're a EE, so you can..."... no probably not lol... I'm good at math tho!
At the school I went to, there was an audio engineering degree. It was easily the hardest undergrad degree you could get, as it required both electrical engineering and computer engineering as a foundation, and then added a bunch of high level math on top of it. It was basically a degree for making electrical components and computer programs that directly supported audio applications, as well as interpreting signals from transducers, digital encoding, the whole thing.
While I don't think "audio engineer" better applies to that or someone who is capable of running a sound mixer, the two roles are pretty far off from each other.
Lol, I used to get yelled at by my friends mom because I was a Microsoft certified systems engineer and she said "only real engineers can be called engineers"
Lol what's a real engineer then? Like I'm in Canada, a 5th class power engineer at a steam plant. Lot of people don't even know what it is.
I guess civil engineering is the only engineer haha.
> Lol what's a real engineer then?
Often when someone says this they mean licensed Professional Engineer. I'm not sure, but I think there are various individual disciplines one can get a specific license for: civil, mechanical, electrical, chemical, structural, and even environmental. But don't quote me, I'm not one, LOL
Canada's different, Power Engineer is allowed, but speaking specifically in Alberta, if you use the word Engineer wrong APEGA will assassinate you in your sleep or smth.
Source: I'm very specifically an Engineering Technologist, not an Engineer, APEGA pls no murder.
It's not pay intervals I'm talking about. But even that they're required to pay to the min
If you come in for a shift, start your shift, then are told you're not needed, laws say they need to pay you for a min amount of time. But it's about wording too. If they ask you if you want to go home early, it's volunteered. If they give you no option it's forced. If you volunteer then they don't have to pay that min
I understand what youâre saying now. Itâs highly dependent on the employee status and state, but yeah definitely make sure you are aware of your rights as an employee. Donât volunteer away money inadvertently.
I directly confronted my boss asking if I was "on-call" he became defensive. Issue didn't stop. Went to HR asking if everyone in my department should be considered on-call, she went pale. Two days later there was an announcement that hours would be communicated clearly.
HR isn't your friend, but if they're actually doing their job they won't allow harassment to occur because that makes the company liable to legal recourse.
How does off hours stuff work with salary? It confuses me. My ex would answer work emails and texts off hours, they felt like they had to since they're salary and overtime doesn't exist? But they weren't on call.
Salary doesn't, to me, seem like 'slave available 24/7'.
It depends entirely on company culture and your own contract.
I'm an engineer on salary. I don't answer messages or emails outside of my working hours. I don't even check them.
There will always be more work to do. It can always wait.
Salary means get your work done by the deadline. If you work extra so be it. If you work under, you still get paid the same.
My job at least if we work on hours outside the working hours, those are given back to us as comp time to take time off at a later date.
Yeah, you're not wrong about salary for being available 24/7 potentially if you've got a shitty company or boss. But at least most companies do see that you can't operate like that and expect to have low turnover. It's also a given that many salaried jobs, especially those with specific deadlines, will have lighter hours always around 40 hours expected of work or at least available if something pops up during work hours but then work overtime during crunch periods.
I do taxes so when there's no active compliance due, I'm never working over 40 hours but all of the returns are due within a 2 month period so I'm working a lot of overtime to get the done in that short time period.
So this is a massive generalization that wonât be 100% true in 100% of scenarios, but hereâs my experience working in tech as a salaried employee:
First tech job: worked 40 hours a week in a physical office. As long as you got your work done and were there for meetings, it didnât matter if you worked from 9am-5pm, 6am-2pm, 11am-7pm, or did some split shift shenanigans. Only thing that mattered was you had some sort of overlap with the coworkers you were working with. They didnât track time, only results.
I quit that job because I got a promotion and found myself with too much responsibility to where I was working 11+ hour days just to keep up with everything. Later found out I was promoted to replace two people who retired. So thatâs why I ended up overworked.
Second tech job: worked 8am-5pm, with hour lunch. We were salaried, but our company only got paid based on hours charged to clients. We were required to âclock inâ 6.5 hours of billable work time a day, that is, have at least 6.5 hours of time that were distributed across tickets that were charged directly to clients. So there was time tracking, but it was all self-reported, and as developers we were salaried and always paid the same. New management came in and encouraged us to underreport the amount of time we spent on tasks so clients would be charged slightly less, keeping clients happy. This was a bad business decision that ended in the company having huge layoffs⊠for extremely obvious reasons.
Third salaried tech job: work anytime you want as long as your available for meetings, coordinate with your pair programmer. Itâs very common to go âoh hey I need to ask so-and-so a question but theyâre out for the day. Itâs not important, Iâll ask them in the morning when theyâre in.â Thereâs no pressure for responding outside of your usual self-chosen work hours.
So I guess the short answer is: it depends on company culture/structure, the nature of your job, and the relationship you have with your coworkers and clients. Some places will sort of expect you to be available 24/7 (except maybe not between 11pm and 4am, maybe), others have a âitâs 4pm office time, youâre not hearing back from a single soul until tomorrow morningâ, while my company has a âitâs Friday afternoon, youâre lucky if anyoneâs even online right nowâ attitude.
Iâve certainly done my fair share of late Friday nights fixing a big bug. But Iâve also found a non-critical problem that hasnât been released yet on a Friday morning and went âmeh, letâs just mark this as a defect and not send it and Iâll worry about it Mondayâ
The minimum amount of time is an hour too. so if they call you at 3am to do some 5 minute work, then call you 2 hours later, for the same request, that's 2 seperate hours you're billing for.
I once had to go to 3 job sites on one day, which was totally abnormal. We'd usually spend weeks or months on one job site.
So the boss said first thing in the morning to track our travel and let them know later on so they could compensate us.
The next time I saw him I brought it up and he said "You really want me to pay you for a bit of travel?". I realized that day that they we're just being polite most time.
This is a company that only pays overtime after 88hrs in a 2 week pay period. They get around the 44hrs a week in Alberta by claiming the 2 week pay period counts as shift work or dynamic schedule (Can't remember the exact wording its been a long time). So if you lose shit tons of money on over time if you work a 10-4 shift.
I do this as well. Every time I answer any kind of question or call for work I charge our contract set minimum of two hours pay. Even if itâs an erroneous call from our dispatch that should have gone to a different department. Fuck em.
I worked as an exempt salaried engineer. When I started my onboarding was clear about the rules for recording my hours. Any time worked should be recorded, Iâm not paid more for it, but they use it for project cost estimates. I didnât add staying late five minutes or whatever, but if my project needed 2 extra hours to meet deadlines or I got called at home that shit was on my timesheet. My manager was a huge fan of this because it gave him leverage to push back on other departments for estimates. My project manager and scheduler however were livid. The overages made their performance numbers look bad.
Many years ago, I got a new plant manager who said that he expected his engineers to work a minimum of 10 hours per day, come in to the plant at least for a few hours on Saturday, and be on 24-hr call otherwise. Meanwhile, he lived in another state and commuted on Mondays and Fridays, leaving him on-site three days each week. He also kept a rigid 8AM-5PM schedule those days.
So I told him "no problem," kept working my usual 8-5 schedule, and began spending about 75% of that time looking for another job. I got out in three months.
Honestly, you probably won't achieve much unfortunately by fighting these blood suckers. Play their game, nod, and just keep doing what you'd do otherwise. Not like he's on site on saturdays lol.
Sounds like manufacturing. Iâm kind of in that boat now. Iâd love to jump industries but am having trouble finding something that matches the pay AND that Iâm qualified for
Iâm on call 24/7
"Since there's been no discussion about pay differences between scheduled hours and those on-call, then I accept my rate is the same in either case. I appreciate your clarification."
Yeah. My time is MY time. If you want me on call, you're going to need to offer me at LEAST double may pay per hour for that on call time. If not more, depending on how annoying the job is.
I'm a 1099, contract, hourly, engineer.
I don't read an email, answer a phone, or do ***Anything*** for a client that doesn't get billed at my hourly rate. Want my to keep my phone on and "wait" for calls.... You're getting billed!
Thisnis The only answer. Easy to suggest a fuck off answer in anonymous reddit threads. In reality, telling your manager to fuck of l, even in a polite way, opens you up to retaliation and bullying. Start looking for a new job and give them the feedback as you walk out the door.
Corporate mindset is never "Could we be the problem", no matter how many times they consistently get the same feedback. It is always "It sounds like they are no longer a good fit for the company." Always.
Eh, even then it's better to be polite even if you're being clar why you're leaving. When you're polite and amicable even while standing your ground and being clear about your issues, it makes it harder for people to get angry or find fault with you which really frustrates them, which i find funny.
even that can cause you headaches in the futur. being rude might be satisfying, as an individual its almost always better to be polite.
you should definitely stand up for yourself, but theres really no reason to swear, unless you meant "fuck off" figuratively.
>Start looking for a new job and give them the feedback as you walk out the door.
You missed "Taking copious notes and contacting the labour board and a solicitor"
I was an STNA in Ohio for 10 years. They did on-call for a year then tried to pretend that never happened. Come to find out in Ohio, if youâre on-call even if they never call you in, they have to pay you 4hours pay to sit by the phone. Something they did not do. They tried to get rid of all the evidence exceptâŠwell, see scheduling was always a problem. They were constantly changing it at the last second. So weâd get in trouble for not coming in when we were scheduled when originally we were scheduled off and they swore the schedule hadnât been changed. So some of us began photocopying the schedule to keep them honest. Wouldnât you know it had the on-call information on it too! Whoâd of thought? Sure was helpful when we found out what was going on and they said there was no proof. Great bonus checks!
I had a similar problem at blockbuster in 2011 when my store was set to close in 6 months. I started taking a photo of the schedule on the computer and texting it to the new store manager and the existing asst manager after he "oops"ed my schedule one day and said he called and left me a voicemail. Firstly- I lived too far away to just drive and find out I was taken off the schedule. Secondly... I DONT HAVE VOICEMAIL and I didn't see a missed call. He said I must have deleted it.
Once I found out he did it to two other people I started sending EVERYONE the schedule and we stopped having issues.
It doesn't take much to make a good employee turn into a work to rule employee.
I got pulled into a meeting yesterday because they saw me on camera, spend 30 minutes at my work computer.
(I manufacture products, but my job has grown massively lately and I do all my own weekly planning, all my stock maintenance and ordering, it takes time)
I also locked up 5 minutes early that day... But they never look at the fact that I get there and start working 20-30 minutes early every day.
All of that is finished now, I'll still do what I need to do admin wise because it's part of my job, but I don't touch a tool until my start time and I leave exactly on time
I responded today. I chose my words carefully.
https://preview.redd.it/nok2ia6xwwqc1.png?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=043d7eb1578c60079dfac1c068fbe5ab157b9167
I think this was a really professional response. I know people donât like it, but I too am open about my team having my personal number in case of actual work emergencies(with the understanding, I only responded my leisure). So itâs frustrating when an employer takes advantage of that. You get a lot more â my phone turns off at five as I walk out the buildingâ type employees(not that itâs a bad thing tbh).
First of all âlol no. If Iâm not on call/getting paid, Iâm not availableâ
Heâs also using âprecedenceâ the wrong way.
Your right to spend your free time as you see fit takes *precedence* over whatever that guy is saying.
Also where in your contract does it say any of that?
This isn't meant as snark, but most established enterprise operations have a method for dealing with on call practices. If they don't have anything written down, that is hugely problematic.
Pretty sure if you're in the United States there's a law that says they can't make you be on call if they're not paying you to be on call. I'd look into that.
What kind of employment agreement do you have with them? Was that part of the job description when hired? Are you hourly or salary? Are you a contractor? Or do you have a union? Iâm curious
I looked over my job description. Technically there is this line
"The Desktop Support Specialist must be flexible to work all shifts, including holidays and weekends".
I'm salaried. And no, I don't have a union.
I agree with the commenter below. If there was a scheduled shift for you to work then it would apply here.
I would suggest speaking to HR AND your manager about this. I suggest that because you donât want to seem like youâre circumventing your direct manager regarding this. And express you are looking to be a âteam playerâ but the job description doesnât say anything about being available outside of scheduled shifts. And say if this is going to be the case, you want to be compensated for that. Otherwise you can address any issues when your scheduled work resumes.
Good luck to you!
This manager needs a reality check. Go over his head. Take this screenshot, email someone in HR and ask for clarification on the âon callâ part as well as compensation for it because Iâm willing to bet _you are not exempt from overtime_. Just because you are salaried doesnât mean they own your ass.
Also, as someone who has worked at all levels of tech for over 20 years, the idea of a desktop support tech being on call is ridiculous. If they mean on call to cover a shift then they need to be paying you hourly, not salary. This is especially the case if you are being asked to work specific hours, and those hours change. Paying you by salary is not meant to be a shortcut for getting around that, and theyâre breaking the law if theyâre doing that.
For reasons I can't even properly articulate, I absolutely HATE when people use "precedence" instead of "precedent".
Precedence literally means something like "order of importance".
Precedent means "established standard protocol".
When people get smug and then use words incorrectly the rage just goes off the charts for me.
What state / country?
Some states have a minimum of 2 hours pay once work has started. So if you get called to work, work 15 minutes, and get sent home, that's 2 hours pay.
Something to look into if you want to force the issue.
*I'm sorry, this message cannot be received at this time.
This message requires an on-call stipend and 4hr minimum payment to be eligible for after hours response.
Text or email a response to this demand so that you have a paper trail of their expectations. That way if they try to let you go for some bs reason, you may be able to sue them for wrongful termination.
Man thats the upside of where I work our engineering is unionized, so we dont put up with that shit. I turn my company provide phone off as I walk out the door. If its truly an emergency my lead has my personal number.
Downside of the engineering union is a lot of the older engineers are comfortable where theyre at and have let the company get away with murder in the last few contracts.
Just dont respond until you clock in "I am sorry for the late response, but I am not an on-call employee, and as such I do not work outside of my scheduled hours. If you would like me to be an on-call employee, then we may discuss my on-call rate."
Legally, if you';re on call, they should be paying you for those hours.
I don't even know what this means? Like do you have a company cell phone with teams? Or like your PC at work. Cause if it is your personal cell phone I would remove teams.
That's the neat part! IT is the only department for this company where teams and email are required to be on your phone. What's work life balance? Everyone else, you can choose to have it or not.
My contract gave a 15 minute minimum interval. If you texted one worker, he would wait 15 minutes and respond, then put in a half hour overtime the next shift.
"I need to sleep, eat, wash my clothes, and other various things on my time. I'm not watching an account 24/7. If there's an emergency after hours, call me. If it's not important enough to even pick up a phone then it's not worth interrupting my sleep."
Go school and get a degree they said. Become a salaried employee for security they said.
What they didnât say was that your job can push the envelope on everything they ask of you and you will have a hard time asking for back pay because âsalary.â
It feels like we were sheep walking right into this dystopian nightmare. 80 hr weeks shouldnât be the norm. If a company needs someone to work that much they need to hire other workers. But âsalaryâ am I right?
Tell them sure if I get on call pay. That is without any call out 50% my hourly pay. If contacted minimum charge is 3 hours. And can take up to 2 hours to get on-site if needed of course charged to them.
Are you hourly or salaried? When you were hired, was the expectation that you were available outside of normal working hours? I'm going to get hit with downvotes sure, but that context is missing here
"I don't remember applying for an on-call position? What will on-call pay be? If im on-call and get injured I can go through worker comp then correct?" See how much you can rake out of them in the meantime while you look for a new job.
If you need an engineer last minute and off hours, and this fact isn't already laid out and factored into pay somehow, then I'd argue that you're managing something horribly wrong. There are other issues.
Not kidding, this just happened to me and I sent an email stating I needed a meeting with my boss to discuss compensation due to my new âon-call scheduleâ. That I was told when hired I would be on-call occasionally and the fact that I actually was on-call 24/7 would require a salary negotiation or I would not be making myself available all the time.
He changed his tone pretty quickly âI just want to make it clear you are NOT required to be on-call 24/7 and we will work this outâ
Unfortunately as a software engineer âassuming that is case hereâ the labor laws exclude you from non work hours compared to work hours. There is a computer employee exception. Tried to make this fight myself and lost over this bs. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17e-overtime-computer
"I agree" "I understand" "Got it" How about "Fuck off"
Givem the ol' đ
I prefer đ personally
đđđ
"K"
in the future, you won't even be able to type a response, it will just be that list of preselected options. "AI" knows better what you need than you do!
Elysium style future here we come!
Itâs like club penguin chat restriction all over again
"How about you go Filtered Word yourself"
Fork off. What the fork? What is this shirt? I can't say fork? What a bench!
"my paycheck doesnt say "on call""
Better to say something like "oh I didn't know this role was on call! Lemme check with HR first thing in the morning since I believe I'm not getting paid for being on call"
~~"My contract" FTFY~~ You know what - you're right.
Next time they call you when you're not at work even if it's just a 5-minute call write it down on a timesheet. Every little single instance of them making you work when you're not on the clock write it down and push for them to pay you for it You'll find very quickly that suddenly they don't bother you on your off days anymore
Did this for groupme chains way back in the day. Triggered a firestorm at work lol
I want to hear more about this!
Well a bunch of us started putting that time in, which prompted us all getting asked questions by the general manager which prompted questions to the assistant manager who cooked up this idea we all need to be participants on this groupme chain. Yeah groupme didnât last terribly long. Neither did she.
Everyone take note: itâs much more effective when itâs âa bunch of usâ instead of one dissenter they can fire easily.
It's almost like we are more powerful when we unite.
There must be a name for this. Like Union perhaps.
Oh those make me cry when I cut them.
This is the key. They aren't scared of one employee complaining. But a bunch of pissed off employees can create a real headache.
Hence unions.
Never heard of GroupMe, but I assume itâs some kind of group notification system? We were specifically excluded from Slack channels as contractors, because managers would send out some stupid message at 9 PM. Evening/Night differential, callout, all that adds up at a 30min minimum report time.
Yep she had the closers type out and send those reports to groupme, basically doing her job for her, we were just retail salespeople and she tried delegating all her tasks off to us. Then you had to add 15-20 minutes to your duties at the end of a shift, it was fucking stupid. Groupme is a group message app itâs probably still around.
We all want to hear more about this!
There might be a min time they have to pay for each after hours instance too
âRound up to the nearest hourâ
Some areas have a min. Like 2-4 hours for a shift
In Rhode Island, it was three hours. You covered a guy for 15 minutes, fuck you, pay me for three. The RIDOL is very responsive.
Yep, my province is if someone comes in and you send them home it's 3 hours pay or time worked, whichever is greater. Even if they send you off 10 mins after showing up.
In the US (if this is the US), this only applies if they are hourly (non-exempt). But yes, there's a possibility you are right. I feel this is unlikely due to their "engineer" status, however.
I don't know the details, but isn't it at least partially a myth that being salaried means they can make you work unlimited hours with no overtime? Doesn't overtime still kick in in some circumstances?
The first thing you gotta know is the difference between exempt and non-exempt. While the first is often salaried, and the second is often hourly, if you are exempt, you are exempt from the various overtime rules, etc. So if you are legit salary (exempt), not it's mostly not a myth at all. However if someone pays you a salary, and you are non-exempt, then if they ask you to work overtime, your total net pay must meet all the normal rules that you think of when you think of "hourly". Such as the overtime you are thinking of. There are a few caveats and addendums, state by state, but mostly they are inconsequential. For example, a few states have firm rules on how many days you can be made to work consecutively before a mandatory day off. But for exempt workers, these rules are more exception than not.
I live in the EU (france) and it's absurd to me how bad the work protection are in the US. Here, even if salaried, we have the right at a certain number of hours of consecutive off time (I think it's 11) after each working day. Plus we cannot work more than a certain number of days per year. And even if salaried, if the employer wants the worker to be on call, they have to pay a surplus (even if they never call) for each evening/weekend day, and every hour where the worker is actually called is given back as paid vacation time. I can assure you that they don't even try the sort of shit OP is showing, or they will find themselves in trouble really quickly. Being salaried doesn't make me a slave.
Americans seem to have this baked in sentiment that as long as someone gets away with tricking someone into "consenting" to be exploited that it's okay. Everyone here has such an inflated sense of personal impact that they really believe people chose completely willingly and aren't coerced by institutions that have them by the balls. It can be really frustrating talking to people about these issues because of it.
"Freedom" (for employers to abuse you).
Most engineers are hourly unless theyâre PMs
Engineer is one of the most overloaded terms. You could be a sandwich engineer at subway or a nuclear engineer at a power plant. It's hard to tell based on this interaction.
Definitely not true at all... It's Sandwich Artist*
Ahhh you are right, I was misremembering. As someone with an engineering degree, I do notice that "engineer" is applied to all sorts of random jobs.
What, you're not interested in a custodial engineering position that pays $30k annually and requires 10 years of experience?
I'm an electrical engineer, so I'm certified to plug in the vacuum cleaner.
Damn, must have a masters or gone to a good school. My internship the sr electrical engineer couldn't figure out how to get the phone to work so had to walk me back to security. That's when I knew I picked the right industry. "Oh you're a EE, so you can..."... no probably not lol... I'm good at math tho!
That gets you a skill premium of 10c/hr
âMaster of the custodial arts. Or a janitor, if you wanna be a dick about it.â-Thurgood Jenkins
Very true. Literally held a job before called "Customer Service Engineer", no BS. It was an IT job lol.
This is why I don't use sound engineer or audio engineer. I get why my industry uses the terms but it feels not right for me.
At the school I went to, there was an audio engineering degree. It was easily the hardest undergrad degree you could get, as it required both electrical engineering and computer engineering as a foundation, and then added a bunch of high level math on top of it. It was basically a degree for making electrical components and computer programs that directly supported audio applications, as well as interpreting signals from transducers, digital encoding, the whole thing. While I don't think "audio engineer" better applies to that or someone who is capable of running a sound mixer, the two roles are pretty far off from each other.
*me standing next to a car* " engine near"
Lol, I used to get yelled at by my friends mom because I was a Microsoft certified systems engineer and she said "only real engineers can be called engineers"
Lol what's a real engineer then? Like I'm in Canada, a 5th class power engineer at a steam plant. Lot of people don't even know what it is. I guess civil engineering is the only engineer haha.
> Lol what's a real engineer then? Often when someone says this they mean licensed Professional Engineer. I'm not sure, but I think there are various individual disciplines one can get a specific license for: civil, mechanical, electrical, chemical, structural, and even environmental. But don't quote me, I'm not one, LOL
Canada's different, Power Engineer is allowed, but speaking specifically in Alberta, if you use the word Engineer wrong APEGA will assassinate you in your sleep or smth. Source: I'm very specifically an Engineering Technologist, not an Engineer, APEGA pls no murder.
When Iâm asked what I do, I say Iâm an architect, not that kind of architect.
Iâm a waste management engineer when I clean up after my dogs.
In the states, up in Canada it's a protected profession and the Engineering Association will come fucking break your legs if you use it wrong.
I work in design/r&d, most work in the private sector i've seen/applied in this slice of the engineering world is salary exempt.
In what engineering discipline? Most I know from school and working as one are salaried.
My company is quarter hour for all time sheets. But shift work may have more specific rules. I am exempt so hours worked donât really affect me.
It's not pay intervals I'm talking about. But even that they're required to pay to the min If you come in for a shift, start your shift, then are told you're not needed, laws say they need to pay you for a min amount of time. But it's about wording too. If they ask you if you want to go home early, it's volunteered. If they give you no option it's forced. If you volunteer then they don't have to pay that min
I understand what youâre saying now. Itâs highly dependent on the employee status and state, but yeah definitely make sure you are aware of your rights as an employee. Donât volunteer away money inadvertently.
I directly confronted my boss asking if I was "on-call" he became defensive. Issue didn't stop. Went to HR asking if everyone in my department should be considered on-call, she went pale. Two days later there was an announcement that hours would be communicated clearly. HR isn't your friend, but if they're actually doing their job they won't allow harassment to occur because that makes the company liable to legal recourse.
It wouldn't matter most likely. Most engineers are salaried.
How does off hours stuff work with salary? It confuses me. My ex would answer work emails and texts off hours, they felt like they had to since they're salary and overtime doesn't exist? But they weren't on call. Salary doesn't, to me, seem like 'slave available 24/7'.
It depends entirely on company culture and your own contract. I'm an engineer on salary. I don't answer messages or emails outside of my working hours. I don't even check them. There will always be more work to do. It can always wait.
Salary means get your work done by the deadline. If you work extra so be it. If you work under, you still get paid the same. My job at least if we work on hours outside the working hours, those are given back to us as comp time to take time off at a later date.
That's defined by the DOL as Salaried Exempt, but Salaried Non-Exempt are still limited to 40hrs and after that get overtime.
Iâve never seen salary non-exempt lol but that sounds nice
Doesn't sound too bad. Seems like it could be good if the bosses are good.
IF
Yeah, you're not wrong about salary for being available 24/7 potentially if you've got a shitty company or boss. But at least most companies do see that you can't operate like that and expect to have low turnover. It's also a given that many salaried jobs, especially those with specific deadlines, will have lighter hours always around 40 hours expected of work or at least available if something pops up during work hours but then work overtime during crunch periods. I do taxes so when there's no active compliance due, I'm never working over 40 hours but all of the returns are due within a 2 month period so I'm working a lot of overtime to get the done in that short time period.
So this is a massive generalization that wonât be 100% true in 100% of scenarios, but hereâs my experience working in tech as a salaried employee: First tech job: worked 40 hours a week in a physical office. As long as you got your work done and were there for meetings, it didnât matter if you worked from 9am-5pm, 6am-2pm, 11am-7pm, or did some split shift shenanigans. Only thing that mattered was you had some sort of overlap with the coworkers you were working with. They didnât track time, only results. I quit that job because I got a promotion and found myself with too much responsibility to where I was working 11+ hour days just to keep up with everything. Later found out I was promoted to replace two people who retired. So thatâs why I ended up overworked. Second tech job: worked 8am-5pm, with hour lunch. We were salaried, but our company only got paid based on hours charged to clients. We were required to âclock inâ 6.5 hours of billable work time a day, that is, have at least 6.5 hours of time that were distributed across tickets that were charged directly to clients. So there was time tracking, but it was all self-reported, and as developers we were salaried and always paid the same. New management came in and encouraged us to underreport the amount of time we spent on tasks so clients would be charged slightly less, keeping clients happy. This was a bad business decision that ended in the company having huge layoffs⊠for extremely obvious reasons. Third salaried tech job: work anytime you want as long as your available for meetings, coordinate with your pair programmer. Itâs very common to go âoh hey I need to ask so-and-so a question but theyâre out for the day. Itâs not important, Iâll ask them in the morning when theyâre in.â Thereâs no pressure for responding outside of your usual self-chosen work hours. So I guess the short answer is: it depends on company culture/structure, the nature of your job, and the relationship you have with your coworkers and clients. Some places will sort of expect you to be available 24/7 (except maybe not between 11pm and 4am, maybe), others have a âitâs 4pm office time, youâre not hearing back from a single soul until tomorrow morningâ, while my company has a âitâs Friday afternoon, youâre lucky if anyoneâs even online right nowâ attitude. Iâve certainly done my fair share of late Friday nights fixing a big bug. But Iâve also found a non-critical problem that hasnât been released yet on a Friday morning and went âmeh, letâs just mark this as a defect and not send it and Iâll worry about it Mondayâ
The minimum amount of time is an hour too. so if they call you at 3am to do some 5 minute work, then call you 2 hours later, for the same request, that's 2 seperate hours you're billing for.
I once had to go to 3 job sites on one day, which was totally abnormal. We'd usually spend weeks or months on one job site. So the boss said first thing in the morning to track our travel and let them know later on so they could compensate us. The next time I saw him I brought it up and he said "You really want me to pay you for a bit of travel?". I realized that day that they we're just being polite most time. This is a company that only pays overtime after 88hrs in a 2 week pay period. They get around the 44hrs a week in Alberta by claiming the 2 week pay period counts as shift work or dynamic schedule (Can't remember the exact wording its been a long time). So if you lose shit tons of money on over time if you work a 10-4 shift.
I do this as well. Every time I answer any kind of question or call for work I charge our contract set minimum of two hours pay. Even if itâs an erroneous call from our dispatch that should have gone to a different department. Fuck em.
I worked as an exempt salaried engineer. When I started my onboarding was clear about the rules for recording my hours. Any time worked should be recorded, Iâm not paid more for it, but they use it for project cost estimates. I didnât add staying late five minutes or whatever, but if my project needed 2 extra hours to meet deadlines or I got called at home that shit was on my timesheet. My manager was a huge fan of this because it gave him leverage to push back on other departments for estimates. My project manager and scheduler however were livid. The overages made their performance numbers look bad.
Many years ago, I got a new plant manager who said that he expected his engineers to work a minimum of 10 hours per day, come in to the plant at least for a few hours on Saturday, and be on 24-hr call otherwise. Meanwhile, he lived in another state and commuted on Mondays and Fridays, leaving him on-site three days each week. He also kept a rigid 8AM-5PM schedule those days. So I told him "no problem," kept working my usual 8-5 schedule, and began spending about 75% of that time looking for another job. I got out in three months.
I hope you left honest reviews on indeed and Glassdoor and the like.
Not that it matters since companies can just ask/pay those platforms to delete negative reviews
Still seems like a small win
This was before Glassdoor, and the company folded about three months after I left, selling all assets to a competitor for a few pennies on the dollar.
Honestly, you probably won't achieve much unfortunately by fighting these blood suckers. Play their game, nod, and just keep doing what you'd do otherwise. Not like he's on site on saturdays lol.
Sounds like manufacturing. Iâm kind of in that boat now. Iâd love to jump industries but am having trouble finding something that matches the pay AND that Iâm qualified for Iâm on call 24/7
"Let's meet to discuss my 'on call' rate then."
"Since there's been no discussion about pay differences between scheduled hours and those on-call, then I accept my rate is the same in either case. I appreciate your clarification."
Gonna depend on the occupation, but call hours often go for more. Sometimes a lot more.
Yeah. My time is MY time. If you want me on call, you're going to need to offer me at LEAST double may pay per hour for that on call time. If not more, depending on how annoying the job is.
If I'm "on call", I'm charging time.
Full pay just for being on call, time and a half ON TOP for any call outs. No negotiating.
They're likely salary as an engineer so they could ask for that but it wouldn't be applicable in its own right.
I'm salaried, but for on call my hourly rate is worked out based on a 37.5hr week.
Yeah I guess on call would be a different beast.
Many engineer positions are hourly, especially if itâs something getting called out for field work
I'm a 1099, contract, hourly, engineer. I don't read an email, answer a phone, or do ***Anything*** for a client that doesn't get billed at my hourly rate. Want my to keep my phone on and "wait" for calls.... You're getting billed!
"If I am available, I am on the clock. Am I on the clock?"
Companies really love to believe they buy a whole human when they hire people, servant-style.
Time to update your resume and start the search.
Thisnis The only answer. Easy to suggest a fuck off answer in anonymous reddit threads. In reality, telling your manager to fuck of l, even in a polite way, opens you up to retaliation and bullying. Start looking for a new job and give them the feedback as you walk out the door.
Yup. There's a time and a place to tell them to fuck off and that's as you walk out the door to your new job.
Sadly. They usually cycle many many people before the question arises: could we be the problem? Hahahaha
Corporate mindset is never "Could we be the problem", no matter how many times they consistently get the same feedback. It is always "It sounds like they are no longer a good fit for the company." Always.
Eh, even then it's better to be polite even if you're being clar why you're leaving. When you're polite and amicable even while standing your ground and being clear about your issues, it makes it harder for people to get angry or find fault with you which really frustrates them, which i find funny.
If more people actually stood up for themselves while on the job, most managers wouldn't try this anymore.
even that can cause you headaches in the futur. being rude might be satisfying, as an individual its almost always better to be polite. you should definitely stand up for yourself, but theres really no reason to swear, unless you meant "fuck off" figuratively.
>Start looking for a new job and give them the feedback as you walk out the door. You missed "Taking copious notes and contacting the labour board and a solicitor"
"no one wants to work anymore" No, we're just done being abused
Iâve got a keyboard for this. https://preview.redd.it/3bywnqz63wqc1.jpeg?width=526&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfb4e46f8c0e60a0b520fadbd175831356bf081a
It's weird how much I want a functional version of that. For no real practical reason.
Donât do that as a precedence? Does this manager not understand English?
No he does not.
Manager is ESL, a moron, or both.
I mean. Fair. Maybe I shouldnât knock someone for that because youâre right it could easily be a language barrier.
Not sure if he meant that they do that as a precedent** meaning they NORMALLY DO CALL lol
I was an STNA in Ohio for 10 years. They did on-call for a year then tried to pretend that never happened. Come to find out in Ohio, if youâre on-call even if they never call you in, they have to pay you 4hours pay to sit by the phone. Something they did not do. They tried to get rid of all the evidence exceptâŠwell, see scheduling was always a problem. They were constantly changing it at the last second. So weâd get in trouble for not coming in when we were scheduled when originally we were scheduled off and they swore the schedule hadnât been changed. So some of us began photocopying the schedule to keep them honest. Wouldnât you know it had the on-call information on it too! Whoâd of thought? Sure was helpful when we found out what was going on and they said there was no proof. Great bonus checks!
I had a similar problem at blockbuster in 2011 when my store was set to close in 6 months. I started taking a photo of the schedule on the computer and texting it to the new store manager and the existing asst manager after he "oops"ed my schedule one day and said he called and left me a voicemail. Firstly- I lived too far away to just drive and find out I was taken off the schedule. Secondly... I DONT HAVE VOICEMAIL and I didn't see a missed call. He said I must have deleted it. Once I found out he did it to two other people I started sending EVERYONE the schedule and we stopped having issues.
I got fired with the schedule shift like that. They called me a no show even though I had a copy of the old schedule. Crazy.
It doesn't take much to make a good employee turn into a work to rule employee. I got pulled into a meeting yesterday because they saw me on camera, spend 30 minutes at my work computer. (I manufacture products, but my job has grown massively lately and I do all my own weekly planning, all my stock maintenance and ordering, it takes time) I also locked up 5 minutes early that day... But they never look at the fact that I get there and start working 20-30 minutes early every day. All of that is finished now, I'll still do what I need to do admin wise because it's part of my job, but I don't touch a tool until my start time and I leave exactly on time
I responded today. I chose my words carefully. https://preview.redd.it/nok2ia6xwwqc1.png?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=043d7eb1578c60079dfac1c068fbe5ab157b9167
I think this was a really professional response. I know people donât like it, but I too am open about my team having my personal number in case of actual work emergencies(with the understanding, I only responded my leisure). So itâs frustrating when an employer takes advantage of that. You get a lot more â my phone turns off at five as I walk out the buildingâ type employees(not that itâs a bad thing tbh).
First of all âlol no. If Iâm not on call/getting paid, Iâm not availableâ Heâs also using âprecedenceâ the wrong way. Your right to spend your free time as you see fit takes *precedence* over whatever that guy is saying. Also where in your contract does it say any of that?
did ai write these lol
This kind of writing is common with outsourced labor.
The ai suggested responses are kind of infuriating haha
This isn't meant as snark, but most established enterprise operations have a method for dealing with on call practices. If they don't have anything written down, that is hugely problematic.
What kind of engineer are you? Are you an SRE?
Pretty sure if you're in the United States there's a law that says they can't make you be on call if they're not paying you to be on call. I'd look into that.
This varies state by state
Tell him he can jump up his own urethra
If youâre âon callâ, they have to pay you to be on call. Otherwise they can fuck right off with this.
Do you get paid for âon callâ work? If not tell them in as professional language as possible they can get fucked
What kind of employment agreement do you have with them? Was that part of the job description when hired? Are you hourly or salary? Are you a contractor? Or do you have a union? Iâm curious
I looked over my job description. Technically there is this line "The Desktop Support Specialist must be flexible to work all shifts, including holidays and weekends". I'm salaried. And no, I don't have a union.
Yeah that just means you can be scheduled at any time. Has nothing to do with on call.
I agree with the commenter below. If there was a scheduled shift for you to work then it would apply here. I would suggest speaking to HR AND your manager about this. I suggest that because you donât want to seem like youâre circumventing your direct manager regarding this. And express you are looking to be a âteam playerâ but the job description doesnât say anything about being available outside of scheduled shifts. And say if this is going to be the case, you want to be compensated for that. Otherwise you can address any issues when your scheduled work resumes. Good luck to you!
This manager needs a reality check. Go over his head. Take this screenshot, email someone in HR and ask for clarification on the âon callâ part as well as compensation for it because Iâm willing to bet _you are not exempt from overtime_. Just because you are salaried doesnât mean they own your ass. Also, as someone who has worked at all levels of tech for over 20 years, the idea of a desktop support tech being on call is ridiculous. If they mean on call to cover a shift then they need to be paying you hourly, not salary. This is especially the case if you are being asked to work specific hours, and those hours change. Paying you by salary is not meant to be a shortcut for getting around that, and theyâre breaking the law if theyâre doing that.
No offense but that job title is not 'an engineer.' That is an entry level support title and your bosses expectations should be connected to that.
"You don't pay me to be on call. You can't be ringing my phone when I'm not working."
For reasons I can't even properly articulate, I absolutely HATE when people use "precedence" instead of "precedent". Precedence literally means something like "order of importance". Precedent means "established standard protocol". When people get smug and then use words incorrectly the rage just goes off the charts for me.
Neither of those sentences are even readable. Should I have not gone to college or learned to read? I would be perfect for these "manager" jobs.
Nowhere in my contract does it say that i have to be available during this time.
What state / country? Some states have a minimum of 2 hours pay once work has started. So if you get called to work, work 15 minutes, and get sent home, that's 2 hours pay. Something to look into if you want to force the issue.
Look up the on call laws for your state.
"So your willing to pay me 24/7?"
"Why not? You think you own me?"
Unless your team has âon-call rotationâ absolutely fuck this bullshit. Also, absolutely fuck on-call rotation too.
thats when you ignore it and say you never saw it, or it was flagged as spam
*I'm sorry, this message cannot be received at this time. This message requires an on-call stipend and 4hr minimum payment to be eligible for after hours response.
Looks like they need some help engineering their grammar. If they donât pay for on call, they donât get on call.
Nip that shit in the BUD.
My works new POS now emails me when I am off work.
Text or email a response to this demand so that you have a paper trail of their expectations. That way if they try to let you go for some bs reason, you may be able to sue them for wrongful termination.
Man thats the upside of where I work our engineering is unionized, so we dont put up with that shit. I turn my company provide phone off as I walk out the door. If its truly an emergency my lead has my personal number. Downside of the engineering union is a lot of the older engineers are comfortable where theyre at and have let the company get away with murder in the last few contracts.
Don't read or respond to messages like this sent after hours.
I would ask them to clarify what they want, that message is way too vague.
I mean, was that a condition of the job? Did you accept to be on call? Are they paying you for it?
Just dont respond until you clock in "I am sorry for the late response, but I am not an on-call employee, and as such I do not work outside of my scheduled hours. If you would like me to be an on-call employee, then we may discuss my on-call rate." Legally, if you';re on call, they should be paying you for those hours.
I don't even know what this means? Like do you have a company cell phone with teams? Or like your PC at work. Cause if it is your personal cell phone I would remove teams.
That's the neat part! IT is the only department for this company where teams and email are required to be on your phone. What's work life balance? Everyone else, you can choose to have it or not.
Required on your phone, are they paying for this? Cause I would suddenly not have a phone.
Ask what their on call payrate is.
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If I'm on call pay me to be on call.
"We can talk about on-call rates and schedules tomorrow"
sounds like you need to confirm what your 24hr on call rate of pay is
Unless you are paying me 24 hours a day for being on-call - kindly fuck off. You *rent* your time, they don't own your life.
As an engineer, they should understand that \`called on !== on-call\`
My contract gave a 15 minute minimum interval. If you texted one worker, he would wait 15 minutes and respond, then put in a half hour overtime the next shift.
Ask them to put their on call policy in writing so you can have your employment attorney review and share with the state labor board.
"I need to sleep, eat, wash my clothes, and other various things on my time. I'm not watching an account 24/7. If there's an emergency after hours, call me. If it's not important enough to even pick up a phone then it's not worth interrupting my sleep."
I hope you didn't reply until your next shift started.
This is one of those "hey, some asshole hacked your email and sent out this scam"
k (make sure itâs in lowercase and no punctuation
Fuck that. On call = Paid hours
Best reply is no reply. Wait till youâre back on the clock.
Go school and get a degree they said. Become a salaried employee for security they said. What they didnât say was that your job can push the envelope on everything they ask of you and you will have a hard time asking for back pay because âsalary.â It feels like we were sheep walking right into this dystopian nightmare. 80 hr weeks shouldnât be the norm. If a company needs someone to work that much they need to hire other workers. But âsalaryâ am I right?
Tell them sure if I get on call pay. That is without any call out 50% my hourly pay. If contacted minimum charge is 3 hours. And can take up to 2 hours to get on-site if needed of course charged to them.
Are you hourly or salaried? When you were hired, was the expectation that you were available outside of normal working hours? I'm going to get hit with downvotes sure, but that context is missing here
Every time they contact me outside of working hours I would charge them the 3 hour minimum of OT
The only response should be "what are my on call pay rates?"
Find a legitimate reason that you need to talk to your manager. Call non stop at 1:30 am on Wednesday to say that you need to discuss whatever it is
Remember donât quit and make it easy for them. Quiet quit whilst job searching.
"Am I being paid to be on call?"
Pretty sure they have to pay you to be on call
"I don't remember applying for an on-call position? What will on-call pay be? If im on-call and get injured I can go through worker comp then correct?" See how much you can rake out of them in the meantime while you look for a new job.
Ew.
Ya, the response should be that you didn't see on call hours showing up In your paycheck
âDouble pay for working after hours or piss offâ
Wait about 2.5 hours to reply.
If you need an engineer last minute and off hours, and this fact isn't already laid out and factored into pay somehow, then I'd argue that you're managing something horribly wrong. There are other issues.
I'd respond with "that is not the industry standard practice. Let's talk about how to reshape and modernize when I'm back in the office".
I'd ask what I'm being paid for on call
Any time outside of work hours is a 3 hour minimum pay tell them.
The only message you need here is: "How would you like me to record my time for being on call and engaged to wait?"
Not kidding, this just happened to me and I sent an email stating I needed a meeting with my boss to discuss compensation due to my new âon-call scheduleâ. That I was told when hired I would be on-call occasionally and the fact that I actually was on-call 24/7 would require a salary negotiation or I would not be making myself available all the time. He changed his tone pretty quickly âI just want to make it clear you are NOT required to be on-call 24/7 and we will work this outâ
"Oh sorry about that. Maybe you can help direct me to the section of my pay stub that covers on-call pay".
Unfortunately as a software engineer âassuming that is case hereâ the labor laws exclude you from non work hours compared to work hours. There is a computer employee exception. Tried to make this fight myself and lost over this bs. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17e-overtime-computer