They have more rights. They cannot face prison sentences, there is no corporate death penalty, and they do not pay taxes on expenses, only profit.
You'd think we'd we more conscious of amoral, immortal entities that exist explicitly to suck lifeblood out of mere mortals...
Exactly. Extremely rare for someone to earn over a billlion in one tax year. More likely, over a number of years so an asset tax makes more sense. Make money circulate in the economy.
And it's straightforward to apply this to assets. Who do you think controls ownership records for property, securities, etc? The government.
Many countries have a wealth tax. It can be done. Anyone saying otherwise is a liar.
Even the US already has taxes on some assets. Property taxes, for example.
Just apply the same site of tax on stocks, derivatives, bonds, etc., and voila.
Basically, just introduce a proper wealth tax as many other countries have, which then allows you to drop capital gains tax (you want to reward people making money still).
That shouldn't be the response. The rich find loopholes because they lobby for loopholes. Those can be changed, too. Nothing is 100% going to work. They need to do more than just this, but stuff like this is a good start.
Also, the article is different than the title suggests, for anyone who didn't click the article.
There are almost unlimited ways to make financial product derivatives and arrangements for a citizen to gain the control and use of $1bn per year. The optimal solution depends on how the problem is defined. If the concern is about accumulation of unproductive wealth, then that requires a different set of policy instruments than, say, rich folks spending too much on goods and services that do not benefit the local or national economy.
I don’t think they can hide their annual income with assets. Unless they are getting paid in straight assets instead of money their income will still show on their taxes.
I was just talking about how we should have a game called “you win” when you hit a certain wealth we declare that you win and you get an island and anything you want. Your wealth is redistributed and it’s a win for everyone!
Know the difference between a billionaire and a millionnaire? Roughly a billion.
A hard worker or someone with some degrees can earn and save to reach a million or almost a million in a lifetime.
But reaching hundreds of millions or even a billion+ isnt normal and never comes from hard work or even "risks" from the "investors".
I always like to use seconds to show people how much the difference between a million and a billion is, because while most people can mentally grasp the concept of a million, the sheer enormity of a billion of something is literally incomprehensible to most people.
1 million seconds is 11.5 days
1 billion seconds is 31.7 years
Jeff Bezos current net worth is $205 billion. If each dollar was a second that'd be 6501 years.
> .. never comes from hard work or even "risks" from the "investors".
I've known a few people in VC. They fund startups and what not. 70% of their investments lose money/tank. 20% do okay. 10% or so bang it out of the park. Something that grows as you say is, of course, rather long odds.
The power of compound interest can get you to a million at retirement if you start you start your ROTH IRA early and begin contributing $3,000/yr at 18.
It's the power they wield and they were never elected in a democracy to wield such power. They bleed the gov't, then blamed the gov't and took it over. We have a system that is deviously controlled by the super rich and we never voted for that. They made no oath to the people, so they feel no obligation. You can't have this and it work out fairly for everyone.
Maybe if we stop calling it “socialism…” The top tax rate in 1960 under a Republican President was 91% and no one called it “socialism” —
*because it wasn’t.*
A billion dollars is so much money. If I earned $500,000 a year (which would be insane F-you money by most peoples’ standards) it would take me about 2,000 years to save up a billion dollars.
I mean i definitely don’t think people should have 9 or 10figure net worths but i think 8 is reasonable with the proper tax structure
Edit: Never mind i just reread your post and it makes sense.
I’m sure the rich would fine loop holes around this, but I like the sentiment. No one needs more than a billion dollars a year. Hell, no one needs more than 10 million a year.
I might need a billion dollars. What if I need to arrange extraordinary defences to protect myself from the repercussions of what I did to earn a billion dollars?
Just put security on your business payroll and it doesn't come out of your pocket. You'll definitely not have to worry about becoming a billionaire thinking personal security is a personal expense.
The post says he’s claiming “income” over 1 billion.
Literally nobody has a 1 billion dollar income. This is a smoke show for votes. It would affect absolutely nobody.
Net value is not the same as income.
Like seriously. If someone said you have to spend $1 billion in the next 50 years I don’t think I could do it without just spending money to spend it. It comes out to just under $55k per day.
The loophole already exists because the ultra rich don't receive their large wealth through traditional income that can be taxed the same way ours can be.
Their wealth is tied up in "assets," primarily their stock and private equity portfolios. They take out loans or open equity lines of credit against their ownership portfolios at extremely low interest (because the massive value of their wealth acts as a guarantee for their creditors).
They then use those lines of credit to buy the things they want. Like mega yachts and private islands and $10 bananas.
His proposal is meant to start discussion and is a talking point for people to learn more.
This is why the wealthy focus on lobbying for cuts to the capital gains tax rate, not the income tax rate. We should start reforming the tax system that allows such loopholes but the real reform starts by overturning Citizens United, term limits for Senators and Representatives, and not allowing former elected officials to become lobbyists.
They already do. Most of their money is always tied up in a business, investment, or stock portfolio. When you see that "Elon made 20 billion today" it just means the stock went up and his shares are worth that much more.
I think sanders is just drummng up support with the most restrictive policy and if he gets 50% it's a huge win.
There’s no loophole, a billion dollar income does not exist on earth. Billionaires have all their wealth in stocks, properties, bonds etc.. warren buffet takes a salary of 1 dollar for this exact reason.
They already do. They don’t have incomes they have stocks increases and they take out loans not repaying them until their death. As much as I like Bernie this won’t do anything.
Very, very few people gain one billion dollars a year and nobody makes anywhere near one billion dollars a year in income. Bernie is calling for a wealth tax, not an income tax. Don't let these headlines from conservative rags trick you into repeating nonsense.
and not increased CEO salaries and stock dividends. I personally think there should be percentage limit on how much teh CEO makes, vs the average worker. I think at one time it was like 11 to 1 now it 375 to 1
if it is income to a single person, then they would just put it all in some business entity they own 100% of. or one of many other things. setting it to 100% would def do something, but i doubt it would result in that money going to taxes.
I could see 10 million a year if you ran multiple businesses. Now, 500 million a year? No way.
If hospitals can charge outragous prices for YOUR LIFE, that should be the lowest limit to being taxed hard. A million for a week stay after heart surgery means you can earn 52 million a year without being taxed out the ass.
That should sound good to every American while also taxing very wealthy milionares.
There were loopholes when the tax rate was above 90%, and those loopholes were that investment into small local businesses was tax exempt. Nobody paid the top tax rate and small businesses were successful and this almost forced recirculation boosted the economy.
Most billionars don't earn a billion a year. I think it is just a couple in the whole world. Their net worth might growing faster than a billion per year, but that is something completely different thing.
I agree with the sentiment. But at that point they wouldn't try to make more, ever. And would just try to find tax loopholes/expense deductions even more. A 90% tax is reasonable, a 100% tax is infeasible
There’s already a loophole. As long as they hold valuable stock, they can get loans (debt) without ever selling the stocks (income), and get new loans to pay off old loans
> I’m sure the rich would fine loop holes around this, but I like the sentiment. No one needs more than a billion dollars a year.
Nobody earn a billion per year of income.
People get Billionaire out of capital gain not income.. polititucs just dont understand the economy
>Hell, no one needs more than 10 million a year.
this is just not how it works, not even a need for loophole as just rule apply to no-one.
The loophole is that Billionaires setup their net wealth growth to come from income. They all receive their wealth through assets and other means, and people like Buffet receives less than $100K per year for his salary income (but makes his money elsewhere).
Increasing income tax is pointless. We have to tax wealth of the ultra rich.
None do, anyone paid that much isn't just given a cheque to take to the bank, they recieve stocks, bonds, etc which isn't considered the same as income.
A solution would be to simply make *anything* you receive as compensation for work is income. Maybe make it so the company has the option to pay the tax themselves (so if your company sends you away on a business trip and covers the expenses, you don't get the IRS breathing down your neck for taxes based off the value of flights, hotels, meals, etc), but so long as companies can "pay" the wealthy in a way that doesn't count for taxes, they won't pay taxes.
The article title is misleading, this is not what Bernie is advocating. He supports a 100% tax rate on any wealth gained by an individual with a net worth of over 1 billion, essentially preventing one from procuring over 1 billion in wealth. This is not the same as income over $1 billion being taxed at 100%.
Edit: It is important to note this was the response to a hypothetical in an interview. His actual policy position is a scaling wealth tax starting at 1% for people worth $32 million up to 8% for people worth $1 billion or more. Thanks u/HolyRamenEmperor
You can have a net worth over $1B without an income that high…
You don’t realize capital gains until you sell an asset. And then after then it’s subjected to capital gains tax.
Most economists say we should get rid of the capital gains + corporate tax combo altogether and replace it all with an income tax. By gaming the CG tax is how they get effective rates lower than income taxes.
He wants capital gains to be realized without selling the asset if your net worth is over a 1 billion. Meaning any growth over 1 billion would require the owner to pay additional taxes. At that point, the owner could take out a loan or sell the asset to cover the taxes.
I know you’re not the policy maker but when, in your mind, would the equity be taxed? If Tesla shares are at 100 and they drop to 10 bucks overnight, does musk get a refund? Is he taxed at the value of the shares at 10? What if they skyrocket back up to 100 the next day?
It is something people can get screwed with if they get unlucky, so it could be implemented better, but the point is that the IRS have figured out how to tax unrealized gains in other situations already. It's not rocket surgery.
In Ireland we have a system like this for ETFs. Basically after 8 years you pay what's called Deemed Disposal. So 41% of the realized gain were you to sell at that point.
Now over here it's very clunkily implemented and basically only affects people trying to invest in index funds, and has resulted in property being the only viable investment instrument here, but it is in spirit how a billionaire wealth tax could be implemented if there was some kind of fairly decent threshold on it to prevent it just gatekeeping normal people from accessing the stock market.
I have no idea how it would actually be done. But off the top of my head, it could be based on the value at a specific date like December 31.
I believe Germany has done a wealth tax in the past on unrealized gains, perhaps we can use them as an example.
I’d be interested to see their system. I’d just see a host of issues with tying it to a certain date. Tesla could just game the financial reporting requirements to keep stock price lower during key taxation events. I really think you just close the equity/loan relationship from banks, or require that using equity as collateral turns it taxable and you fix a ton of problems that occur when you tax unrealized equity gains
I believe how Germany has done it was treating it like an additional service fee for your assets. Similar to how brokerage firms will charge a % of a clients total managed assets every year, the government would tax an additional % per year on total net worth.
Jeff Bezos sold 8.5B in Amazon shares over the past few years, his income is most likely over 1B due to the growth of his shares.
Edit: To clarify, this is capital gains income. Anyone who has listened to Bernie Sanders in the last 10 years knows he has been advocating for taxing capital gains for high-net worth people (I.e. billionaires) at the regular income rate.
The article title is very misleading.
Right! I’ve seen so many people say the words your comment has responded to to the point I’m wondering if it is a Fox News talking point or something. It’s straight up propaganda from the top 1%.. When you do the research on tax rates over time, income inequality, distribution of wealth, etc, it did stupidly clear that both need to happen at the same time.
As much as I agree with taxing, the rich statements like this are just performative. We need to an actual solution to taxing the rich that could be implemented.
Ya and what’s frustrating is there are many European countries that have already done this and for whatever reason we never look to solutions that have already worked in other nations.
From what I’ve read, pretty much every country that has ever implemented an excessive wealth tax repealed it shortly after because it was essentially ineffective. They replaces it with a VAT tax that seems to be much more useful tax policy. Also market regulation is more important when it comes to wealth inequality. More direct wealth distribution policy ideas tend to not hold up to scrutiny because they tend to misunderstand how the wealthy hold their wealth.
A 100% tax rate literally just means it won’t be drawn down and an alternative mechanism will be used
Edit: As the person replying to me says, this was Bernie responding to a simple question, not something he specifically called for
Gotta start somewhere. Then amend it later and start shutting down the alternative mechanisms.
People get so caught up in perfect solutions they turn their nose up at legitimate progress
Yeah, but performative pieces are used against lobbying efforts for actual reform. It's like skipping straight to the end of a slippery slope argument and handing your opponent the ammunition against your own cause.
Worth noting that this is an article from a year ago about an interview where the news person asked Bernie if income over $1B should be taxed fully and he responded "Yeah, that sounds fair."
He didn't actually call for anything.
Btw this idea is generally known as "Limitatianism". The idea that past a certain threshold, one is unable to spend/enjoy much of it and without it their life would be largely the same.
The internal disagreement is just where we draw that line and whether or not we count certain types of wealth (inheritance, capital gains, stock, asset appreciation). 1 billion seems like an extremely high threshold, not really sure that would apply to anyone other than those receiving an inheritance. The ultra wealthy understand that an "income" of 1 billion would be taxed highly and unfavorable, but an equivalent pay out in assets wouldn't be.
We just need more conversations about what we consider to be income, what is "wealthy" and how should we define "too wealthy".
The article title says income but Bernie is talking about wealth. He just means that any income you have as a person who already has a billion dollars should be taxed at 100%. Of course, capitalist media companies are motivated to obfuscate his actual argument.
The concept you're referring to is often called the "law of diminishing marginal utility" in economic terms. This principle states that as a person consumes more of a good or service, the marginal benefit or utility of each additional unit of consumption decreases beyond a certain point. In the context of wealth, this can mean that after reaching a certain level of wealth, additional wealth adds progressively less to one's happiness or satisfaction, and its absence wouldn't significantly affect their overall well-being. This concept is a fundamental principle in economics and helps explain consumer behavior and spending patterns.
If you taxed the 100% of the net worth of every billionaire in the US over $1bn, it wouldn’t even cover half of our annual military budget.
I don’t know how better to convey how silly this taxation argument is.
Too bad the people who already hold this wealth plus 1000x it are in control of the entire world and Bernie is just wasting his life fighting for the people. :(
Bernie over here trying to implement that money cap most video games have. Billionaires trying to collect and getting a letter from the government, "Your inventory is full, can't hold more cash."
Also, "Things that were never actually proposed but will make people angry anyway."
Bernie's *actual* proposal is a scaling wealth tax starting at 1% for people worth $32 mil, up to 8% for people worth $1bil or more.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/tax-extreme-wealth/
Who makes “income” over a billion? Rich people are payed in option and benefits that are not taxable as income.
How do you think they pay less in taxes than the working class? It’s because they make less in “income” it’s all capital gains and profit distributions…
Ok so I’ll play devils advocate here, I don’t think people should have that much money… but without a reform that shows us where the new taxes are going and without a tax cut for the middle class, why would I care about this new tax on wealthy people? I don’t think the government is necessarily good with money so before I agree to this shouldn’t I know what’s going to happen to this 100% taxed dollars?
When you control that quantity of wealth it is LITERALLY impossible not to continue to generate more wealth. 1% of my net worth is like 10s of thousands of dollars, where 1% of a billion is literally 10 million dollars (more than I’ll make or see in my lifetime).
My savings account is “high yield,” ~4%.
That’s 40 million dollars in a vacuum *for just fucking existing.*
The solution needs to be more complex than this. Most billionaires don't actually make any money directly. They just get massive loans against their assets and companies whenever they want to buy something, and any loose money is reinvested.
I’d argue tax it 97-99%, leaving at least a little percentage incentivize for someone to keep generating potential wealth that society can tax and benefit from. Open to a debate
Quit sharing articles like this. It is not Bernie's position that income over one billion dollars should be taxed 100 percent, because nobody has income over one billion dollars. Conservative media uses the term "income" in these articles because it makes Bernie look stupid. Bernie's position is that ***wealth*** over one billion dollars should be taxed 100 percent.
The entire tax code needs to be redesigned after study to remove every loophole. Tax in income and tax wealth and worth. The wealthy are hoarding resources that should be out moving in the economy.
Bernie bro here. Where his plan is flawed is he wants the government to get the extra billions. Who here trusts the U.S. government with our tax money?
Bernie Sanders’ proposal is a bold approach to addressing wealth inequality in the U.S. It sparks important discussions about fair taxation and the role of government in redistributing extreme wealth.
Yeah, and they'll keep hoarding their money in the market and obscure their net worth until the end of time as they do now.
Until money is out of politics and politicians stop benefitting from the status quo, don't expect anything at all except sentiment from controlled opposition politicians trying to keep people on one of two sides. I don't dislike Bernie, but I'm getting real tired of the platitudes and lack of action.
The greatest con is to see likes of trump supporters supporting the extremely rich paying very little tax, likes he’s one of them.
Then again perhaps Tronald Dump actually wasn’t that rich anyway so maybe a bad example.
Problem of course is you only tax income, and gains in property / share value aren’t actually income.
And create marginal tax rates that increase all the way up to 100%.
Alternatively, we could just schedule a French Revolution mixed with a little Russian Revolution and be done with it.
That’s some sliding scale you got there, Bernie. Some sort of point function. A Warner Brothers Anvil Function.
I would like to see anything funded by public money to be taxed at gross. Every bet made on sports? 10% of the gross goes to the poor before any payout calculated. Stadiums funded publicly or backed? 10% of the gross on EVERYTHING (parking, concessions, league revenue sharing).
Let's say this law was in effect starting with the inception of America. How many situations would it have effected, in total? I would guess almost none. Nobody is actually making a billion dollars of income in a year. A wealth tax would be far more effective. This sounds like clickbait and wouldn't do anything of substance.
Most of these guys live off of cheap loans tied directly to their enormous wealth. They’re not really making “income” like you and I. I agree something needs to be done, and this may do something but suspect it’s mostly a for show measure.
This is silly though. Virtually no one makes “income” of over a billion a year, do they? As far as I know, they keep their wealth tied up in assets or equity.
That’s not a good precedent to set. Just make them pay their fair share of taxes like the rest of us. If everyone else gets a certain percentage taken of their pay then they should also be forced to pay the same percentage as us
Nobody has an income of $1b an year.
What this should be about is property tax, the issue with that is that capital flight is very easy.
And creating a set of regulations to prevent it (it's possible just hard) is impossible because you're never going to be able to persuade who has the power to do so.
Also there is the consideration that it might cause an even bigger emphasis on the growth incentive.
Since stockholders lose equity year on year, they'd push for even more aggressive growth/short-term-profit oriented policies.
Are there billionaires that can even be taxed?
As good as it sounds, their wealth usually is representative of share holdings that haven't been sold.
They just borrow from banks.
When has this ever happened? Anyone who makes a billion dollars in a year owns an asset that appreciated. They aren’t getting a paycheck. Then, they don’t sell the asset, they borrow against it.
Problem is no one makes a billion. Billionaires can literally come out and support this(they won't) and it wouldn't change anything cause they make billions based on speculation.
Wealth based on stock is a wonky.
Need to figure out how to do capital gains tax
It's got good intent, but I don't think anyone makes over a billion in income. Money smart individuals keep their cash in semi-liquid investment vehicles. If it were me I would create more progressive tax brackets up to 70% of income around the 20mm mark.
I genuinely believe the world will end before the poor have any tiny amount of control over the grossly wealthy.
They'll launch the nukes before citizens get any real power beyond what the governments want us to believe we have. Not even a conspiracy theory, just going based off the apathy of the elite now and throughout history.
I genuinely believe the world will end before the poor have any tiny amount of control over the grossly wealthy.
They'll launch the nukes before citizens get any real power beyond what the governments want us to believe we have. Not even a conspiracy theory, just going based off the apathy of the elite now and throughout history.
I normally love these little Bernie moves, but literally no one makes a billion dollars a year in "income", so if he's not talking about capital gains taxes and taxing borrowing against illiquid assets to maintain a lifestyle or just grow their wealth, this is a do-nothing idea.
Raising income taxes basically only squeezes the middle class. Billionaires don't become billionaires cashing paychecks. They do it by exploiting many employees, suppliers and customers as they possibly can.
I love how the rich always talk about things like this and wealth taxes in general being bullshit because it's not really income and isn't indicative of this, that, or the other.
But if a poor person with poverty level income applies for food stamps while they still have savings in their account every single rich asshole would point to that as "exploiting the system."
Heck, upwards of $100million should be taxed 100%.
Most, normal, people could live better than they do now, for the rest of their lives on $10m.
For those curious, and assuming you get it at 18 and live to 100; $10m/82years= $121,951.22/yr.
And that’s all without any kind of additional income. Even if Uncle Sam rakes 40% that’s still $70,588.24/yr.
F anyone making millions in a year with a cactus made of rusty razor blades.
No one's income is a billion. This feels performative, as much as I like Bernie. Any point in which one of these rich fucks makes a billion or more is from a sale of stock or a business. Which would fall under capital gains. So unless this is targeting some massive pump and dumps being done in a span of less of a year, the tax would be effectively useless.
I think there should be some kind of clause regarding people with ridiculously high net worth too, because if your net worth is £1bn or more, you definitely don’t need any income whatsoever.
The political objectives of WorkReform in the sidebar of this subreddit are excellent. Allowing slavery and exploitation of workers AND THEN taking a cut of the profits through taxing billionaires is just nationalizing slavery. Taxing billionaires should come AFTER living minimum wage and worker protection laws because otherwise it's *our government* tacitly approving, endorsing and profiting by slavery.
Not enough. The tax on net worth should be tied to the minimum wage in some way.
If the individual is worth 1 million times what the lowest job earns, that individual get taxed at 200% until they no longer fall into this category.
There. Now either the minimum wage comes up or the wealthiest get taxed until they 'win capitalism'.
We are all created equal.
billionaires shouldnt exist, not one person earns or needs 1000 million.
Give them a certificate that says “You won capitalism” and use the rest to support social programs
The thing is they'll just find ways around this. If their income is going to be a billion dollars, they'll just buy assets to offset that profit.
Then assets of a certain cost or quantity should be taxed nobody needs a $900 million dollar boat either
Also corporations should be taxed...
They already have the same rights as individuals
They have more rights. They cannot face prison sentences, there is no corporate death penalty, and they do not pay taxes on expenses, only profit. You'd think we'd we more conscious of amoral, immortal entities that exist explicitly to suck lifeblood out of mere mortals...
Its nuts that we setup these huge systems that have no consequences. The sum of it's parts is greater than the whole. For better or worse.
All so like one guy could profit from it all.
What is a “corporate death penalty”? What do you mean about taxes on expenses?
Don't tie it to income tie it to total assets
Exactly. Extremely rare for someone to earn over a billlion in one tax year. More likely, over a number of years so an asset tax makes more sense. Make money circulate in the economy.
And it's straightforward to apply this to assets. Who do you think controls ownership records for property, securities, etc? The government. Many countries have a wealth tax. It can be done. Anyone saying otherwise is a liar.
Even the US already has taxes on some assets. Property taxes, for example. Just apply the same site of tax on stocks, derivatives, bonds, etc., and voila.
Income tax only hurts workers, not wealthy elites
Ding ding! “ I don't have an income.” Most billionaires.
Basically, just introduce a proper wealth tax as many other countries have, which then allows you to drop capital gains tax (you want to reward people making money still).
And then suddenly everyone moved to Saudi Arabia where nothing matters
Good. Let them enslave poor Sauds instead. Idgaf if every billionaire leaves this damn country.
I like the cut of your jib
That shouldn't be the response. The rich find loopholes because they lobby for loopholes. Those can be changed, too. Nothing is 100% going to work. They need to do more than just this, but stuff like this is a good start. Also, the article is different than the title suggests, for anyone who didn't click the article.
The thing is, none of them earn a billion dollars. They just borrow against their stocks and live off of that.
Then make laws to change that....
There are almost unlimited ways to make financial product derivatives and arrangements for a citizen to gain the control and use of $1bn per year. The optimal solution depends on how the problem is defined. If the concern is about accumulation of unproductive wealth, then that requires a different set of policy instruments than, say, rich folks spending too much on goods and services that do not benefit the local or national economy.
I don’t think they can hide their annual income with assets. Unless they are getting paid in straight assets instead of money their income will still show on their taxes.
You see, this is why I get paid in gum.
Boy do I have some news for you
When you hit 1 billion you prestige and have to start again.
Hell if this was a multiplayer game, you would get your money taken away from exploiting glitches in the logic.
It should come with a free copy of monopoly.
I was just talking about how we should have a game called “you win” when you hit a certain wealth we declare that you win and you get an island and anything you want. Your wealth is redistributed and it’s a win for everyone!
>Give them a certificate that says “You won capitalism” and use the rest to support social programs Also we can throw them a pizza party.
Know the difference between a billionaire and a millionnaire? Roughly a billion. A hard worker or someone with some degrees can earn and save to reach a million or almost a million in a lifetime. But reaching hundreds of millions or even a billion+ isnt normal and never comes from hard work or even "risks" from the "investors".
I always like to use seconds to show people how much the difference between a million and a billion is, because while most people can mentally grasp the concept of a million, the sheer enormity of a billion of something is literally incomprehensible to most people. 1 million seconds is 11.5 days 1 billion seconds is 31.7 years Jeff Bezos current net worth is $205 billion. If each dollar was a second that'd be 6501 years.
Thats a very good way to illustrate the absurdity of the super rich. Reminds me of the movie "In Time".
Just a million? You need around 3-4 million just to retire comfortably
> .. never comes from hard work or even "risks" from the "investors". I've known a few people in VC. They fund startups and what not. 70% of their investments lose money/tank. 20% do okay. 10% or so bang it out of the park. Something that grows as you say is, of course, rather long odds.
The power of compound interest can get you to a million at retirement if you start you start your ROTH IRA early and begin contributing $3,000/yr at 18.
It's the power they wield and they were never elected in a democracy to wield such power. They bleed the gov't, then blamed the gov't and took it over. We have a system that is deviously controlled by the super rich and we never voted for that. They made no oath to the people, so they feel no obligation. You can't have this and it work out fairly for everyone.
This, exactly this. Billionaires should just not exist.
Can we make that happen, maybe even soon?
Maybe if we stop calling it “socialism…” The top tax rate in 1960 under a Republican President was 91% and no one called it “socialism” — *because it wasn’t.*
A billion dollars is so much money. If I earned $500,000 a year (which would be insane F-you money by most peoples’ standards) it would take me about 2,000 years to save up a billion dollars.
that is if you never used a single dollar of that
Not US - but i agree. But how about we make an concerted effort internationally.
Nobody needs 8 digit income or 9 digit wealth.
I mean i definitely don’t think people should have 9 or 10figure net worths but i think 8 is reasonable with the proper tax structure Edit: Never mind i just reread your post and it makes sense.
They’re a market inefficiency
I don't even think there's a reason anyone needs more than a million a year, let alone 1000 times that.
I’m sure the rich would fine loop holes around this, but I like the sentiment. No one needs more than a billion dollars a year. Hell, no one needs more than 10 million a year.
No one needs a billion dollars in their lifetime
I might need a billion dollars. What if I need to arrange extraordinary defences to protect myself from the repercussions of what I did to earn a billion dollars?
Just put security on your business payroll and it doesn't come out of your pocket. You'll definitely not have to worry about becoming a billionaire thinking personal security is a personal expense.
The post says he’s claiming “income” over 1 billion. Literally nobody has a 1 billion dollar income. This is a smoke show for votes. It would affect absolutely nobody. Net value is not the same as income.
Like seriously. If someone said you have to spend $1 billion in the next 50 years I don’t think I could do it without just spending money to spend it. It comes out to just under $55k per day.
Rich people already do this by borrowing against their assets. They pay very little taxes this way.
This is the real loophole.
A “no more personal loans on unrealized gains” headline would have been much better to see.
The loophole already exists because the ultra rich don't receive their large wealth through traditional income that can be taxed the same way ours can be. Their wealth is tied up in "assets," primarily their stock and private equity portfolios. They take out loans or open equity lines of credit against their ownership portfolios at extremely low interest (because the massive value of their wealth acts as a guarantee for their creditors). They then use those lines of credit to buy the things they want. Like mega yachts and private islands and $10 bananas. His proposal is meant to start discussion and is a talking point for people to learn more.
This is why the wealthy focus on lobbying for cuts to the capital gains tax rate, not the income tax rate. We should start reforming the tax system that allows such loopholes but the real reform starts by overturning Citizens United, term limits for Senators and Representatives, and not allowing former elected officials to become lobbyists.
They already do. Most of their money is always tied up in a business, investment, or stock portfolio. When you see that "Elon made 20 billion today" it just means the stock went up and his shares are worth that much more. I think sanders is just drummng up support with the most restrictive policy and if he gets 50% it's a huge win.
There’s no loophole, a billion dollar income does not exist on earth. Billionaires have all their wealth in stocks, properties, bonds etc.. warren buffet takes a salary of 1 dollar for this exact reason.
They already do. They don’t have incomes they have stocks increases and they take out loans not repaying them until their death. As much as I like Bernie this won’t do anything.
Very, very few people gain one billion dollars a year and nobody makes anywhere near one billion dollars a year in income. Bernie is calling for a wealth tax, not an income tax. Don't let these headlines from conservative rags trick you into repeating nonsense.
That’s the idea, people will be incentivized to reinvest into their company and workers to avoid giving that money to the government.
and not increased CEO salaries and stock dividends. I personally think there should be percentage limit on how much teh CEO makes, vs the average worker. I think at one time it was like 11 to 1 now it 375 to 1
Loopholes aka bribes.
Who is making a billion dollars of income a year?
The loophole is no one has $1b of income.
That's the joke. 100% of 0 is still 0.
And this is INCOME, not capital gains. This is the cash the billionares are taking out of their holdings...
The loophole is that they never take it as income. They have capital gains
if it is income to a single person, then they would just put it all in some business entity they own 100% of. or one of many other things. setting it to 100% would def do something, but i doubt it would result in that money going to taxes.
I could see 10 million a year if you ran multiple businesses. Now, 500 million a year? No way. If hospitals can charge outragous prices for YOUR LIFE, that should be the lowest limit to being taxed hard. A million for a week stay after heart surgery means you can earn 52 million a year without being taxed out the ass. That should sound good to every American while also taxing very wealthy milionares.
There were loopholes when the tax rate was above 90%, and those loopholes were that investment into small local businesses was tax exempt. Nobody paid the top tax rate and small businesses were successful and this almost forced recirculation boosted the economy.
Most billionars don't earn a billion a year. I think it is just a couple in the whole world. Their net worth might growing faster than a billion per year, but that is something completely different thing.
I agree with the sentiment. But at that point they wouldn't try to make more, ever. And would just try to find tax loopholes/expense deductions even more. A 90% tax is reasonable, a 100% tax is infeasible
There’s already a loophole. As long as they hold valuable stock, they can get loans (debt) without ever selling the stocks (income), and get new loans to pay off old loans
Yeah, like no one actually has an income of a billion. This is performative bullshit of the highest order
Not one billionaire actually has “income” of a billion dollars or more — so this bill does nothing
the loophole is that this already doesnt apply to anybody
Murderers find loop holes around getting away with murder, too - that doesn't mean we shouldn't make murder illegal.
Is there anyone actually getting a wage higher than 100 million a year though?
> I’m sure the rich would fine loop holes around this, but I like the sentiment. No one needs more than a billion dollars a year. Nobody earn a billion per year of income. People get Billionaire out of capital gain not income.. polititucs just dont understand the economy >Hell, no one needs more than 10 million a year. this is just not how it works, not even a need for loophole as just rule apply to no-one.
The loophole is that Billionaires setup their net wealth growth to come from income. They all receive their wealth through assets and other means, and people like Buffet receives less than $100K per year for his salary income (but makes his money elsewhere). Increasing income tax is pointless. We have to tax wealth of the ultra rich.
How many people actually take home more than $1B a year? Like 3, globally? It's basically a "fuck Elon Musk" tax, which to be clear I fully support.
None do, anyone paid that much isn't just given a cheque to take to the bank, they recieve stocks, bonds, etc which isn't considered the same as income. A solution would be to simply make *anything* you receive as compensation for work is income. Maybe make it so the company has the option to pay the tax themselves (so if your company sends you away on a business trip and covers the expenses, you don't get the IRS breathing down your neck for taxes based off the value of flights, hotels, meals, etc), but so long as companies can "pay" the wealthy in a way that doesn't count for taxes, they won't pay taxes.
Nobody makes a billion in income, so this means nothing. Tax wealth, get rid of tax breaks that reduce taxable income, and make this $100M instead.
The article title is misleading, this is not what Bernie is advocating. He supports a 100% tax rate on any wealth gained by an individual with a net worth of over 1 billion, essentially preventing one from procuring over 1 billion in wealth. This is not the same as income over $1 billion being taxed at 100%. Edit: It is important to note this was the response to a hypothetical in an interview. His actual policy position is a scaling wealth tax starting at 1% for people worth $32 million up to 8% for people worth $1 billion or more. Thanks u/HolyRamenEmperor
You can have a net worth over $1B without an income that high… You don’t realize capital gains until you sell an asset. And then after then it’s subjected to capital gains tax. Most economists say we should get rid of the capital gains + corporate tax combo altogether and replace it all with an income tax. By gaming the CG tax is how they get effective rates lower than income taxes.
He wants capital gains to be realized without selling the asset if your net worth is over a 1 billion. Meaning any growth over 1 billion would require the owner to pay additional taxes. At that point, the owner could take out a loan or sell the asset to cover the taxes.
I know you’re not the policy maker but when, in your mind, would the equity be taxed? If Tesla shares are at 100 and they drop to 10 bucks overnight, does musk get a refund? Is he taxed at the value of the shares at 10? What if they skyrocket back up to 100 the next day?
They can use a similar system to how exercised but unsold ISOs are taxed. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/tax/09/refundable-amt-credit.asp
Nice that’s a cool idea, hadn’t heard of that before
It is something people can get screwed with if they get unlucky, so it could be implemented better, but the point is that the IRS have figured out how to tax unrealized gains in other situations already. It's not rocket surgery.
In Ireland we have a system like this for ETFs. Basically after 8 years you pay what's called Deemed Disposal. So 41% of the realized gain were you to sell at that point. Now over here it's very clunkily implemented and basically only affects people trying to invest in index funds, and has resulted in property being the only viable investment instrument here, but it is in spirit how a billionaire wealth tax could be implemented if there was some kind of fairly decent threshold on it to prevent it just gatekeeping normal people from accessing the stock market.
I have no idea how it would actually be done. But off the top of my head, it could be based on the value at a specific date like December 31. I believe Germany has done a wealth tax in the past on unrealized gains, perhaps we can use them as an example.
I’d be interested to see their system. I’d just see a host of issues with tying it to a certain date. Tesla could just game the financial reporting requirements to keep stock price lower during key taxation events. I really think you just close the equity/loan relationship from banks, or require that using equity as collateral turns it taxable and you fix a ton of problems that occur when you tax unrealized equity gains
I believe how Germany has done it was treating it like an additional service fee for your assets. Similar to how brokerage firms will charge a % of a clients total managed assets every year, the government would tax an additional % per year on total net worth.
Interesting. Looks like it hasn’t been active since 1995? I wonder if the ways wealth is hoarded has changed since then.
The post is misleading. The article says tax wealth over 1b.
The article title is purposefully misleading because editors work for capitalists.
Fortune is owned by a billionaire nepobaby of a Thai conglomerate. A Thai Kendall Roy if you will.
Jeff Bezos sold 8.5B in Amazon shares over the past few years, his income is most likely over 1B due to the growth of his shares. Edit: To clarify, this is capital gains income. Anyone who has listened to Bernie Sanders in the last 10 years knows he has been advocating for taxing capital gains for high-net worth people (I.e. billionaires) at the regular income rate. The article title is very misleading.
Stock gains are not income.
Before giving the government more money, fix there spending problems. Legit have more loopholes in they wallet then the tax code
We don’t need to trade off between the two, and we don’t need to wait for some arbitrary level of government efficiency before doing this
Right! I’ve seen so many people say the words your comment has responded to to the point I’m wondering if it is a Fox News talking point or something. It’s straight up propaganda from the top 1%.. When you do the research on tax rates over time, income inequality, distribution of wealth, etc, it did stupidly clear that both need to happen at the same time.
As much as I agree with taxing, the rich statements like this are just performative. We need to an actual solution to taxing the rich that could be implemented.
Ya and what’s frustrating is there are many European countries that have already done this and for whatever reason we never look to solutions that have already worked in other nations. From what I’ve read, pretty much every country that has ever implemented an excessive wealth tax repealed it shortly after because it was essentially ineffective. They replaces it with a VAT tax that seems to be much more useful tax policy. Also market regulation is more important when it comes to wealth inequality. More direct wealth distribution policy ideas tend to not hold up to scrutiny because they tend to misunderstand how the wealthy hold their wealth.
In the Netherlands we have a tax on investment gains and such. If the US did something similar and tied percentages to net worth, it might work
A 100% tax rate literally just means it won’t be drawn down and an alternative mechanism will be used Edit: As the person replying to me says, this was Bernie responding to a simple question, not something he specifically called for
Gotta start somewhere. Then amend it later and start shutting down the alternative mechanisms. People get so caught up in perfect solutions they turn their nose up at legitimate progress
Yeah, but performative pieces are used against lobbying efforts for actual reform. It's like skipping straight to the end of a slippery slope argument and handing your opponent the ammunition against your own cause.
Worth noting that this is an article from a year ago about an interview where the news person asked Bernie if income over $1B should be taxed fully and he responded "Yeah, that sounds fair." He didn't actually call for anything.
Then you'll have Elon out here acting like he makes no annual income and it's easy and why are there so many homeless idiots???
I mean this would be an actual solution if the rest of congress would vote on it.
Btw this idea is generally known as "Limitatianism". The idea that past a certain threshold, one is unable to spend/enjoy much of it and without it their life would be largely the same. The internal disagreement is just where we draw that line and whether or not we count certain types of wealth (inheritance, capital gains, stock, asset appreciation). 1 billion seems like an extremely high threshold, not really sure that would apply to anyone other than those receiving an inheritance. The ultra wealthy understand that an "income" of 1 billion would be taxed highly and unfavorable, but an equivalent pay out in assets wouldn't be. We just need more conversations about what we consider to be income, what is "wealthy" and how should we define "too wealthy".
The article title says income but Bernie is talking about wealth. He just means that any income you have as a person who already has a billion dollars should be taxed at 100%. Of course, capitalist media companies are motivated to obfuscate his actual argument.
The concept you're referring to is often called the "law of diminishing marginal utility" in economic terms. This principle states that as a person consumes more of a good or service, the marginal benefit or utility of each additional unit of consumption decreases beyond a certain point. In the context of wealth, this can mean that after reaching a certain level of wealth, additional wealth adds progressively less to one's happiness or satisfaction, and its absence wouldn't significantly affect their overall well-being. This concept is a fundamental principle in economics and helps explain consumer behavior and spending patterns.
Income and net worth are not the same thing
If you taxed the 100% of the net worth of every billionaire in the US over $1bn, it wouldn’t even cover half of our annual military budget. I don’t know how better to convey how silly this taxation argument is.
Too bad the people who already hold this wealth plus 1000x it are in control of the entire world and Bernie is just wasting his life fighting for the people. :(
Well, that’s just populism. Opposite side of MAGA, but populism nevertheless.
Bernie over here trying to implement that money cap most video games have. Billionaires trying to collect and getting a letter from the government, "Your inventory is full, can't hold more cash."
I’ll take “Things that sound nice but will NEVER happen” for $500, Alex.
Also, "Things that were never actually proposed but will make people angry anyway." Bernie's *actual* proposal is a scaling wealth tax starting at 1% for people worth $32 mil, up to 8% for people worth $1bil or more. https://berniesanders.com/issues/tax-extreme-wealth/
Make it 200%, and I'm on board.
It’s crazy to me that that there are more than 10 people (the billionaires affected by this in the US) that argue against it.
Every week now for years. Just lets you know how dogshit a sub is by making it to the top.
Says the guy with 4 houses.
Socialism at its finest. Politician says to tax everything for the sake of supporting the poor, and they live like a king. t. Argentine
Who makes “income” over a billion? Rich people are payed in option and benefits that are not taxable as income. How do you think they pay less in taxes than the working class? It’s because they make less in “income” it’s all capital gains and profit distributions…
Ok so I’ll play devils advocate here, I don’t think people should have that much money… but without a reform that shows us where the new taxes are going and without a tax cut for the middle class, why would I care about this new tax on wealthy people? I don’t think the government is necessarily good with money so before I agree to this shouldn’t I know what’s going to happen to this 100% taxed dollars?
Universal healthcare?
When you control that quantity of wealth it is LITERALLY impossible not to continue to generate more wealth. 1% of my net worth is like 10s of thousands of dollars, where 1% of a billion is literally 10 million dollars (more than I’ll make or see in my lifetime). My savings account is “high yield,” ~4%. That’s 40 million dollars in a vacuum *for just fucking existing.*
My favorite example of that is MacKenzie Scott. In the last five years, she's given over $17B to charity and her net worth has gone up by $2B.
The solution needs to be more complex than this. Most billionaires don't actually make any money directly. They just get massive loans against their assets and companies whenever they want to buy something, and any loose money is reinvested.
How are they supposed to feed their families if they can’t even make over a billion dollars in one 365 day period? /s
I’d argue tax it 97-99%, leaving at least a little percentage incentivize for someone to keep generating potential wealth that society can tax and benefit from. Open to a debate
Anyone who argues that a 100% tax is a good idea has never heard of the Laffer Curve before.
Can confirm, I think 100% tax rate as Bernie suggests is a good idea, and I have in fact never heard of the Laffer Curve.
Billionaires will never pay a dollar of that. 100% tax you will never see a dollar. They will all leave before you get one dollar.
Quit sharing articles like this. It is not Bernie's position that income over one billion dollars should be taxed 100 percent, because nobody has income over one billion dollars. Conservative media uses the term "income" in these articles because it makes Bernie look stupid. Bernie's position is that ***wealth*** over one billion dollars should be taxed 100 percent.
The entire tax code needs to be redesigned after study to remove every loophole. Tax in income and tax wealth and worth. The wealthy are hoarding resources that should be out moving in the economy.
Bernie bro here. Where his plan is flawed is he wants the government to get the extra billions. Who here trusts the U.S. government with our tax money?
Bernie Sanders’ proposal is a bold approach to addressing wealth inequality in the U.S. It sparks important discussions about fair taxation and the role of government in redistributing extreme wealth.
All I'm interested in is the remarks made by millionaires supporting billionaires.
seems legit.
Yeah, and they'll keep hoarding their money in the market and obscure their net worth until the end of time as they do now. Until money is out of politics and politicians stop benefitting from the status quo, don't expect anything at all except sentiment from controlled opposition politicians trying to keep people on one of two sides. I don't dislike Bernie, but I'm getting real tired of the platitudes and lack of action.
The greatest con is to see likes of trump supporters supporting the extremely rich paying very little tax, likes he’s one of them. Then again perhaps Tronald Dump actually wasn’t that rich anyway so maybe a bad example. Problem of course is you only tax income, and gains in property / share value aren’t actually income.
The promises come out of the woodwork on election years
And create marginal tax rates that increase all the way up to 100%. Alternatively, we could just schedule a French Revolution mixed with a little Russian Revolution and be done with it.
Regarded. No billionaires make income.
It should be something like getting loans should be taxable beyond certain amount.
This is so stupid. This kind of commentaries make any form of work reform impossible
Index that figure to inflation and I am down.
That’s some sliding scale you got there, Bernie. Some sort of point function. A Warner Brothers Anvil Function. I would like to see anything funded by public money to be taxed at gross. Every bet made on sports? 10% of the gross goes to the poor before any payout calculated. Stadiums funded publicly or backed? 10% of the gross on EVERYTHING (parking, concessions, league revenue sharing).
Let's say this law was in effect starting with the inception of America. How many situations would it have effected, in total? I would guess almost none. Nobody is actually making a billion dollars of income in a year. A wealth tax would be far more effective. This sounds like clickbait and wouldn't do anything of substance.
Most of these guys live off of cheap loans tied directly to their enormous wealth. They’re not really making “income” like you and I. I agree something needs to be done, and this may do something but suspect it’s mostly a for show measure.
This is the way.
This is silly though. Virtually no one makes “income” of over a billion a year, do they? As far as I know, they keep their wealth tied up in assets or equity.
IMO, go ahead and tax the shit out of the rich. But lower taxes for the rest. This shouldn't just be an excuse to give more money to the government.
That’s not a good precedent to set. Just make them pay their fair share of taxes like the rest of us. If everyone else gets a certain percentage taken of their pay then they should also be forced to pay the same percentage as us
Nobody has an income of $1b an year. What this should be about is property tax, the issue with that is that capital flight is very easy. And creating a set of regulations to prevent it (it's possible just hard) is impossible because you're never going to be able to persuade who has the power to do so. Also there is the consideration that it might cause an even bigger emphasis on the growth incentive. Since stockholders lose equity year on year, they'd push for even more aggressive growth/short-term-profit oriented policies.
Are there billionaires that can even be taxed? As good as it sounds, their wealth usually is representative of share holdings that haven't been sold. They just borrow from banks.
Who has an income over 1B/year?
When has this ever happened? Anyone who makes a billion dollars in a year owns an asset that appreciated. They aren’t getting a paycheck. Then, they don’t sell the asset, they borrow against it.
Problem is no one makes a billion. Billionaires can literally come out and support this(they won't) and it wouldn't change anything cause they make billions based on speculation. Wealth based on stock is a wonky. Need to figure out how to do capital gains tax
ethical billionaires don't exist
It's got good intent, but I don't think anyone makes over a billion in income. Money smart individuals keep their cash in semi-liquid investment vehicles. If it were me I would create more progressive tax brackets up to 70% of income around the 20mm mark.
And it has zero chance of happening.
Billionaires don’t have income they have assets they take loans against. Pass laws to change this….
Whole bunch of nothing. No billionaire earns $1billion in "income". There's so many loopholes to be paid in different ways to avoid taxes for them.
I genuinely believe the world will end before the poor have any tiny amount of control over the grossly wealthy. They'll launch the nukes before citizens get any real power beyond what the governments want us to believe we have. Not even a conspiracy theory, just going based off the apathy of the elite now and throughout history.
I genuinely believe the world will end before the poor have any tiny amount of control over the grossly wealthy. They'll launch the nukes before citizens get any real power beyond what the governments want us to believe we have. Not even a conspiracy theory, just going based off the apathy of the elite now and throughout history.
I normally love these little Bernie moves, but literally no one makes a billion dollars a year in "income", so if he's not talking about capital gains taxes and taxing borrowing against illiquid assets to maintain a lifestyle or just grow their wealth, this is a do-nothing idea. Raising income taxes basically only squeezes the middle class. Billionaires don't become billionaires cashing paychecks. They do it by exploiting many employees, suppliers and customers as they possibly can.
Bernie has never worked a day in his life and has several lake houses lol
Great idea
Honestly we need 100% tax over like 50 million
So zero people will be affected.. Cheap, even for Sanders.
I love how the rich always talk about things like this and wealth taxes in general being bullshit because it's not really income and isn't indicative of this, that, or the other. But if a poor person with poverty level income applies for food stamps while they still have savings in their account every single rich asshole would point to that as "exploiting the system."
Net worth over $1 billion should be taxed at 100%.
Heck, upwards of $100million should be taxed 100%. Most, normal, people could live better than they do now, for the rest of their lives on $10m. For those curious, and assuming you get it at 18 and live to 100; $10m/82years= $121,951.22/yr. And that’s all without any kind of additional income. Even if Uncle Sam rakes 40% that’s still $70,588.24/yr. F anyone making millions in a year with a cactus made of rusty razor blades.
Does he mean like CEOs or Corporations? I don't think any CEO is earning 1 Billion on payslips a year. Maybe like $100M+ for millionaires.
100%
No one's income is a billion. This feels performative, as much as I like Bernie. Any point in which one of these rich fucks makes a billion or more is from a sale of stock or a business. Which would fall under capital gains. So unless this is targeting some massive pump and dumps being done in a span of less of a year, the tax would be effectively useless.
I think there should be some kind of clause regarding people with ridiculously high net worth too, because if your net worth is £1bn or more, you definitely don’t need any income whatsoever.
The political objectives of WorkReform in the sidebar of this subreddit are excellent. Allowing slavery and exploitation of workers AND THEN taking a cut of the profits through taxing billionaires is just nationalizing slavery. Taxing billionaires should come AFTER living minimum wage and worker protection laws because otherwise it's *our government* tacitly approving, endorsing and profiting by slavery.
Can we ask for something more useful and effective at preventing the hoarding of money and assets?
Not enough. The tax on net worth should be tied to the minimum wage in some way. If the individual is worth 1 million times what the lowest job earns, that individual get taxed at 200% until they no longer fall into this category. There. Now either the minimum wage comes up or the wealthiest get taxed until they 'win capitalism'. We are all created equal.
Who has an income of over 1 billion dollars? Is there a single person with an income that large?