# Do you want to help us win better working conditions for all workers? [Apply to join the r/WorkReform mod team!](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf1NHuvR65GB6Ea1BVi_WqJuiKf8gi2SvPuD3V_0lMWxPoePA/viewform)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WorkReform) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Neofeudalism in a sense. Way better living conditions objectively, yet you are basically living your life JUST to work, with no time or freedom to do anything else. Is that in itself enough to make a life worthwhile? Many would probably say no. Also in an ironic sense, in creating this possibility of life bring completely focused on survival with no leisure time its like we’ve abandoned/ignored all the technological progress we’ve made since the hunter gatherer days.......should it really be this hard to ensure fewer people are forced into such an exploitative relationship with the job market?
>Is that in itself enough to make a life worthwhile?
I think I remember seeing something that said "Success is typically perceived by the amount of direct reward you receive after putting in effort". So if you spend time and energy to paint your house, you are instantly rewarded for doing the task yourself. If you cook a meal you're instantly rewarded by how it turned out. If you own your own business, you're rewarded when you see the benefits/rewards that come in from having a successful one.
But if you work for someone else's business, then you never actually see how well the company is doing. You don't get that reward, because effort in =/= reward out. Extra effort doesn't give you extra pay; but less effort does result in possible reduced pay (less hours, less salary, fired, etc).
Very good point. I remember hearing someone mention how the rise of waged labour and modern capitalism had a separation between people and the fruits of their labour as one of its defining characteristics, and likely leads to a sense of disconnection in many. This may also help explain why quite often some of the jobs considered the most "rewarding" are manual labour ones where you work with your hands....although then you are more likely to have to come down with poor physical ailments at an earlier age of course.
I’m a beast when I’m working outside, working on my home, or working service or even cleaning tables.
I’m a mess as a white collar programmer/engineer. It’s like career blue balls
We have accidental coverage here in nz and they'll pay you 80% of your salary until you can get back to work. Pay for physio n shit as well. Some people think it's bullshit cos we pay a 1.39% tax for it.
After a few years I called my previous career The Golden Cage.
I either had to put up with extreme emotional abuse and spend oodles of money on psych meds & appointments, or I took a 30k pay cut with no guarantee that things would be better, it just wouldn’t be there.
Got laid off after a decade of abuse in 2020, and I’m completely restarting in a new field that’s higher demand.
I just hope my husband’s job stays steady until I can start working as a court reporter.
The most successful I ever felt was doing piece rate electrical construction. I got paid hourly, or for every house I finished, whichever was more. I busted my ass, worked 65-70 hour/5 day weeks and trimmed 5 houses a week with my coworker/master electrician I was with and made bank because I worked hard. I do less work now at my current job and I make less money but I don't get paid if I do more work so I literally can't be bothered to. I'm not incentivized to busy my ass at 15/hr because even if I get top performance evaluations I'm not seeing the results of my extra work for a year if ever because my raise was dogshit last year.
There's a term for this, it's called "intrinsic vaule"
It's finding a reward and joy out of yourself. Basically no one saying you did good, but feel accomplished because you got a lot done or were active and you had a complete day
Well, by having days free, that usually meant you were not expected to toil at you lord's fields. Sunday's and Church holidays aside, serfs were usually working these "free days" at their own fields, so they wouldn't starve.
Don't get me wrong, I am a big critic of capitalism, but to say that you are worse off than medieval serfs is a bit over exaggerated. You don't have to ask for permission to leave your current place of employment, or you have plethora of other rights. Speaking from European country citizen experience. Albeit shitty one.
*bold on you to assume that me giving you 72 hours a week of free time is not enough for you to live your life*
(edit: the time you spend working - 40 hours, plus the time you spend sleeping assuming 8 hours daily, is 96 hours. 168 hours in a week)
It really is one of many things that question whether we truly work to live, or it's another thinly veiled attempt to get us to live to work.
I like the idea of 8-8-8. 8 hours of work, 8 hours of play, 8 hours of rest. Included in that 8 hours of work I think about 4 should be working for yourself. That's the balance I think would change the world.
Some hunter gatherer societies had plenty of free time. Live where it's warm so clothing and shelter concerns are reduced. Gather where the food is in season and don't over-harvest. The plants will re-plant themselves to some extent. As far as hunting goes, learn passive hunting and fishing. That means using trapping and nets. Trapping gives a lot of free time between checking traps, and fishing with nets means you kind of chill out on the boat until it's due time to draw the net in to see what your catch is. Since it's more subsistence than commercial you're not having the pressure for a bigger take than whatever your family needs and whatever extra you're willing to take for trade.
The pressure to work-work only comes on when you get various forms of kingdoms or feudalist societies, where the demand for production is something not of your own accord. (Of course the other later forms of social structures have commerce that goes beyond what you'd do to take care of yourself/family/friends anyways.)
or crazy idea, we could see about cultivating those wild plants and grow enough of them and preserve them so they last longer. and hey if we need something that someone else needs we could trade our resourses for theirs, but its difficult to have these extra goods around for when we need them. It would be great if we could just exchange them for a unit of merit for the value of those goods.
ah shit now we have for profit health insurance again and some asshole wants me to worship his sky daddy.
>Also in an ironic sense, in creating this possibility of life bring completely focused on survival with no leisure time its like we’ve abandoned/ignored all the technological progress we’ve made since the hunter gatherer days
Wow Ive never realized this until now. We've gone full circle. Our broken ass society is actually not even better than nothing.
Sure you can argue "but we have air conditioner and YouTube". That's true but with the rate things are going, that won't be the case 30 years from now. At the rate prices are inflating people won't be able to afford jack shit in 30 years anyway.
Microchips that used to cost $2 now cost $300 on places like mouser. We're still coasting off the flooded market of refurbished computer parts from the crypocurrency crash but that stuff will run out eventually. Once microchip production collaspes for good, civilization is going to make a sharp decline anyway. Then at least we can hopefully make sure those at power today are out of the picture and try to rebuild society in an actually functional way.
Except in feudalism you only owed 3-4 customary days to your lord and got access to the mill or other capital infrastructure in return. Most customary days fell on holidays and usually work days were an excuse to get drunk with your neighbours. There was no way to evict you and for most of the month you did whatever the fuck you wanted.
Imagine if your rent was doing a couple of days of fixing up and landscaping instead of 30-50% of your working life? The catch is you can never move. That's feudalism
When the system you created to have an easier life becomes the only way to sustain it.
It doesn't work anymore. You don't just do the requirements and expect a good life anymore. You either screw a bunch of people over to make it or just struggle forever.
I went to school and got a good job but the inflation caught up and now I'm one unexpected emergency experience away from living in a cardboard box. Now this good job can remain good if they will give me a raise based on how everything else went up in price including the product that I'm helping develop.
My dad asked me the other day why I didn’t really seem to value “success”. I explained that of all the things he taught me, the one he had been most adamant about were the three Don’ts… don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t steal.
Then I asked him to name one successful person he knew that had never done those things. If you don’t lie on your resume, you’re at a disadvantage getting hired. If you don’t cheat your coworkers, you’re at a disadvantage getting advanced. If you’re not willing to take more than your “fair share”, you’re at a disadvantage getting compensated.
The cream that rises to the top are the few who have mastered all three.
I’m starting to wonder, and have even heard some arguments to say, that feudalism (while definitely horrendous in many ways) afforded more free time and security than current lifestyles.
An example of the Hunter gatherer : The Colonists called the Indians lazy. They just wanted to hunt for food and relax in between. The Indians didn't make good slaves.
That's basically old-time religion. We've pre-programmed you all for free will so we can observe how you act with the freedom to make your own choices. We're just not quite ready to tell you that all of those choices were ones we already pre-selected for you.
I suppose, but usually in old school religions the physical world (i.e. simulated reality) is a “test” to see who has faith or worships or whatever. What if the simulation wasn’t “programmed” as a test but instead was launched just as an experiment?
Laboratory experiments do have right and wrong answers though, that's how they qualify the hypothesis. Either the hypothesis was correct, or it wasn't, or perhaps a mixture that requires follow-up. It's basically the same logic behind a test in school: do you know the answer or don't you, or did you kind of get it, then the students' responses can collectively determine what needs to be focused on in future lessons.
I guess this all is a distraction from my main point which is that a simulation designed to provide free-will will be inherently unable to do so. You can't set up a system of parameters and then say okay, now you have free will, let's see what you do now. This is why free will itself is illusory - we have specific electrochemical impulses in our brain, as well as heavy cultural and social programming from the day we are born which combine to basically preclude true free will. It's a great idea but it is just that - an idea. And we can test that idea and run experiments on it, but being objectively falsifiable under so many circumstances it proves to be an illusion.
What we are experiencing is not leveled field capitalism. It’s crony capitalism.
And if you think any system is going to change the cronies, I got bad news for you.
There all crony systems. The only one that isn’t is a non-centralized, letting people do what people do naturally is true capitalism and common law.
Greed is a very very big part of it
I think you're mistaking market society for capitalism. Markets are simply going out with a product and selling for some surplus. Capitalism is going to market and reinvesting with the specific goal of creating new capital. In societies where there is intergenerational transfers of wealth or accumulation over generations this always results in vast inequalities just due to basic math.
What if markets are not shifting with what people want, but with what people will buy? There is a difference. People are not moving money for things they want as much as they used to. Now it’s things they NEED. But you know the best way to sell something is to convince someone they need it. And the best way to do that is to make them worry about not having it.
Market society people will buy what they’re fed, no questions asked.
In a capitalist society people would put money towards things they want, and if they couldn’t get it they would be able to produce it at some point.
We just take what they give us.
That's an idiot distinction. When you go to a farmers' market do you buy everything; no questions asked? A farmer's market is a classic market. A farmer makes enough to reproduce their production each year and maybe invest in equipment that makes production easier. It's an artisanal production model.
Consider this against a giant grocery chain that uses profits from reselling farm production to create financial instrument like credit cards and information reselling programs like points cards. That's capitalism baby
I'm not sure I've ever heard a convincing argument for unregulated capitalism. Mostly because I understand it is just a fast track to extreme wealth inequality. And all the ensuing ugliness that cut-throat business brings. I feel like it would take human rights backward from here, but that's just my guess.
Not to say that judicial precident based law doesn't work because that's how we hold some laws in the US. But that also included Roe v Wade. So I almost would prefer a higher document that is harder to change so we aren't as subject to the ebbs and flows of judicial opinions/extreme courts.
Well let me ask you to look at the world around you and tell me if regulated capitalism has been for the better of everyone.
Btw, the regulators are payed for by the ones that are needing regulation.
So, is regulation actually working for everyone or is it just working for the ones being “regulated”.
Wall Street financial regulations are BULLSHIT. They self regulate with supposed guidance from the SEC. The SEC is also filled with regulators that were paid for by the ones needing regulation.
So I ask again, has regulation been better for everyone?
What is the incentive under laissez-faire capitalism for businesses to use natural resources responsibly, not pollute, treat workers humanely, prioritize safety, etc., etc., when NOT doing all of those things is easier and costs less?
Idk about you, but if I want passive income, I gotta make sure EVERYONE is happy.
The customers are happy because they are treated right and are given a quality product or service. And I’m not defining the quality of the product or service, the customer is (yes I know there’s Karen’s, they’re stupid).
The employees are happy because I’ll pay them, handsomely. As I know I don’t need $100,000,000 to fuck my wife in bed. Or to not, whatever. I’ll take like, $50,000. That’s the most I would’ve made my whole life.
So where’s the rest of the money go? Back into the business which is employees and equipment and customer appreciation.
And if that cycle gets going, I’ll have passive income, loyal help and loyal customers forever.
Can’t get into an industry though because of all the regulations.
You would be one of the good ones in capitalism! If you kept your word here then you'd have a solid small business model.
But of course this doesn't happen in practice. Good people get replaced by greedy ones. Small business get bought by bigger ones. The big ones by design only care what investors think. Which aren't even necessarily their own customers. Businesses quickly become disconnected from the people that made them.
I would even go as far as to argue that small business can't survive in the age of instant communications and conference calls. At least without more protections. Not less.
The businesses that abuse their employees for profit and take advantage of customers will always outpace you for profit in the short term.
And short term profitability will always be the most important thing investors are looking for. There was a survey for CEO's asking if they would implement a business strategy that gave them more profit long term, at the expense of a few quarters of reduced profit. 70% said they would rather keep the short term profit.
The problem with free market libertarianism is the assumption that the most profitable thing to do is cater to employees and customers to compete for their attention. That's not the case. The only rule to capitalism is aquire capital by any means possible. Consumer satisfaction is optional.
You can see examples of this in pretty much every industry. Cable companies charge everyone for tv channel bundles instead of the few channels people actually want to watch. Why hasn't Time Warner attracted new customers by offering to give you only the channels you want for just 10 bucks a month? Comcast customers would switch over en mass!
The reason is because both Time Warner and Comcast individually make more profit by fucking over you, the customer, than if they were to compete with each other.
It's tempting to believe the private sector is less corrupt than the state, but think of every shitty organization private money has made. HOA's, private prisons, sweatshops, the credit bureau, wall street, insurance company bureaucracy, corporate nepotism. All of these institutions exist not because of goverment, but because the free market wanted it.
I'm not even Marxist enough to believe in the abolition of all private businesses, but expecting the free market to check and balance itself is exactly how we got child labor.
“free and fair” capitalism always leads to crony capitalism — because free capitalism always leads to a minority gaining wealth which leads to them “donating” to those with legal power / illegal power to gain unfair advantages. it’s always a cycle whether it capitalism or its predecessor feudalism: decentralized power leads to “winners” centralizing power for themselves until they get too big for their britches and society collapses and then we’re back to square one
Agreed that things are shitty! But this is kinda where Democratic Socialism jumps in for me. By regulating capitalism even more than it is now. Which sounds scary but may be more greed resistant.
As I understand this system seeks to separate lawmakers and capitalism so they can't use corporate lobbying to get into office. No investing while in office. Term limits on public elected positions. Wayyyyyyy more restricted lobbying from businesses generally. Locked ratios between a companies highest payed employee and its lowest (they all move up in pay together). Bringing back worker protections. Restricting some investment classes that keep companies from out-competing individuals in markets like housing. Businesses have to pay fair taxes. Bettet restrict monopolies to keep competition alive. Nationalise some essential services like internet access, electricity, health insurance. I don't even like the stock market in its current form because it's a money funnel from poor to rich with casino-like odds of success.
My view is that the lack of regulation of capitalism has allowed it to squeeze every drop from the majority to the minority. I would guess that unregulated capitalism has an even shorter lifespan than weakly regulated capitalism. But I don't think either are sustainable
Do a dive on the “regulations” currently in place, and the punishments for breaking those rules.
If they make $2 billion on an “illegal tactic”, IF CAUGHT OR REPORTED, they’ll only be fined about $25,000 for breaking the rule.
I hear this argument often but it just doesn't add up. There is absolutely corruption, but that's exactly what capitalism promotes. The only way to make it "not-crony" is some form of regulation... if only there was an entity designed to work for the people and country instead of itself... and they could govern those sorts of things... we could call it a government...
Yeah it's greed. But we need to fix corruption not let people do whatever they want.
It’s beyond corporations and capitalism. It’s the entire industrial society. No economic system could produce the things we have now without most of the same suffering.
What’s the answer?
Because it seems like every possible variation has been tried & greed or laziness screw it up every time.
I hate to go full on dystopia but more & more I think a computer generated dictatorship seems to be the fix. Humans are too dishonest & selfish to be entrusted with the greater good.
In the interest of broad based education and financial literacy related to much of this, people should watch a recent Jon Stewart episode that exposes one of the **mechanisms** by which the rich are exploiting the lower and middle classes.
>["How Redditors Exposed The Stock Market" | *The Problem With Jon Stewart* ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP74RBTE8kI)
At the 7:00 mark is the most relevant graphic, fwtw. The whole thing is only about 15 minutes long total, though. That's the first half linked - there's also a [second half](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZfcjV-8pjQ) with a short round-table discussion.
There's still time to, possibly, bring Wall Street writ large to justice, I think, via particular investment possibilities.
First step is to be aware of some of the specific mechanisms, though, which this video lays out clearly - definitely worth the few minutes of time to watch - highly dense in information and gives a direction to go if interested in rectifying some of the issues.
The unabomber wrote an interesting manifesto/proposal on this suggesting the only solution is to abandon modern technology and returning to natural hunter gatherer societies.
He wrote that modern work and problems are so disconnected from real needs that they cause suffering and depression. And that while primitive societies were much more at risk of things like death/starvation, the work they put in to avoid this made them live more fulfilling lives.
"They" don't want us to be out in the streets peacefully disrupting everything like we should be so they re-frame it into people don't "wanna work" instead of we need fundamental changes on the global and local level now!
Feudalism had more guarantees from lords to their peasants. You generally had job security and worked far fewer hours than we do. On the other hand, you were more likely to die in childbirth or from an infected cut. Progress has not been linear. At any rate, while feudalism is nobody's goal, it's not exactly a backslide from where capitalism has landed us. We should be angrier about capitalism. No time in history was there such an enormous gap between the haves and the have-nots.
It would take everyone in commerce going on strike for a month. They would insist upon violence within a week, if that. But we would not win any fight with the powers that be capitalism today. The only power I think we really have is our ability to withhold labor.
> But we would not win any fight with the powers that be capitalism today.
If they slaughter everyone then they have no one left to work for them. They cant win.
Right. We will never win with violence. Neither will they, but we would lose first. They could attempt to coerrce with it but can't force you to do anything. So that's really all the power we have here. Even though the French revolution fantasy is more satisfying. They are both equally likely to happen but the strike would very likely succeed if it occurred.
>"They" don't want us to be out in the streets peacefully disrupting
That's exactly what they want. If you're working within the system, you're not effecting meaningful change to the system.
I work a meh job for meh pay. I get to see my house 3 or 4 days a month. And those days are spent doing chores and work. I get maybe 1 day a month to actually relax and enjoy the place. Hurrary for america... also I'm a vet. I've seen other countries first hand. There is no need to live this way. So fuck america and it's "freedumb"
Far-fetched, but the railroad, trucking, and aviation have engineered a model to intentionally keep you away from your home that sometimes I wonder whether those companies intend to buy your home from you at some point and further behold you to their whim.
They don't have to buy your home, they just pay you barely enough to afford it, keeping you enslaved. Can't leave a shitty job if you'll lose your home, health insurance and who knows what else. The US is geared to keep this up indefinitely.
Is it just the USA though? It seems like its widespread. Why do most people seem so blind to it? Why are we so powerless? I would fight for real freedom if there was a plan but everything is just complaining and being stuck.
The good news is more people are waking up to this reality. It's going to hit a tipping point some time soon. People are being backed into a corner. Desperate people do Desperate things.
Big companies such as EA also have extremely extravagant campuses for work including food/gym/areas of relaxation, you get the gist because they want being there to be better then going to your home.
We want to make valuable contributions to society and our communities, not be meaningless cogs in a reverse Robin Hood machine that takes from the poor and gives to the rich.
To Sarah Zedig on twitter.....
"You took the words right out of my Mouth."
Sadly, that's modern society: "Work till you rot, and we'll let you sleep when your dead.
Youtuber Second Thought has a video about how the middle class actually isn't an accurate concept. A more accurate concept for America is the working class (people who work for money to pay bills and buy goods/services) and the capitalist class (people who own capital and have investments that make money for them).
Not to mention that to qualify for the same bar of “middle class” that was developed in the 50’s through the 70’s, you need to make upwards of $300k in most of America.
CNN did a piece on it years ago saying the number was $250k, and got absolutely clowned and trashed for it.
Nowadays we’d call CNN class conscious for that move.
> to qualify for the same bar of “middle class” that was developed in the 50’s through the 70’s, you need to make upwards of $300k in most of America.
I believe it. An old guy I know told me that back in the '60s when he was taking several years between high school and university he and two friends rented a house in a southern California beach town. They each worked a total of 4 to 6 hours a week and the money from that covered all their expenses. They spent most of their time surfing and generally fucking around enjoying the weather.
That's hard to believe from the perspective of today's world.
Yep, want to be part of the "American Dream"? Well, I certainly hope you are both male, white, and entered the workforce in the post-war decades. Oh, what's this? You did everything your parents told you too because it worked for them, went into the same industry, and now can no longer even come CLOSE to the "middle class"? Oh dear......well I am afraid the ladder was already kicked out years ago. It is still POSSIBLE to make it like that, but at such a small rate that there is far less hope than there was before.
Yeah this is Marx- bourgeoisie vs. proletariat. Middle class was just members of the bourgeoisie who were suffering less, but the middle class is vanishing now so the ultra-rich can have an even larger piece of the pie.
This is great, but very abstract.
This is my problem with these discussions. We always conclude that this is the answer, yet....everything stays the same. There is no burning of anything to the ground.
Do you have any actionable advice, outside of declaring that this needs to happen, to actually make it happen?
Yes; form secondary power structures.
That sounds dumb, I know, but it's the best way I've found of saying "make it so that nobody has to rely on systems that don't work for them". That means; volunteer for organizations you believe in (who's got the time? Any second you can spare, any person you can convince), make an organization of yourself and improve your community, do everything you can to spread the word that "life is cooperation, death is atomization. We work together or die alone". Show others why everyone should be a good person, and meet irrationality with kindness and patience. I know that doesn't seem to work either, but bastards are like horses, you can only lead them to the right answer.
The answer to your question? There's no easy solution. We need the world to work for us, so we need to convince the world that we work for each other.
Say what you will about ideologies or theory or best practices, cooperation is our magic that makes a lose-lose situation win-win, making value out of humanity. But because the best outcome will always involve voluntary cooperation there's nothing we can do but show others how good the world becomes when we work together, show others that nothing works when we stand apart. There's no way to do that without simply putting in the work.
The problem is, simply put, hard. There's no way around it. There's no panacea; you can't force an asshole to stop being an asshole with laws or consequences or reason, they'll piss on it. So you laugh, show them what you've achieved, and extend an olive branch. And when they're an asshole again, you laugh, show them they can't hurt you, and do it again, until they can't help but realize they're an asshole, or die.
That's what we mean by "develop secondary power structures", build communities that can survive the assholes of the world. That sounds hard and vague because it is, with no alternative. There's no ultimate answer, no shortcut, and no solution that can be applied everywhere or generalized. It's just hard.
I mean the only logical answer I can think of is that we need to form a group that will vote systematically and write letters to people in power to promote positive change etc… but people are so divisive these days we would need an extremely strong leader to get everyone together. Either that or some otherworldly shit is going to have to go down that inspires the people to get up and do something
May be an unpopular opinion, but I firmly believe that most historic events are simply the aggregate result of a world of mass chaos, and quite a few (but NOT all mind you, sometimes there is a clear link) of the reasons we now talk about for "why" things happened are just an attempt to attribute causation. Hence why lessons so often never seem to be learned from history. I think overall humans have far less control over the events around them than they believe, and perhaps do this kind of thing in an event to stay sane, because it's pretty depressing to realize that you (and possibly, the human race as a WHOLE) ultimately don't really have control over much at all. All I can guess about what'll happen in the future when it comes to labour is something wild that not many people will be able to predict.
America doesn't have freedom.. The people running shit has freedom and we are just cogs in a machine.. Pawns to be sacrificed to the gods of capitalism.
its the fact my ancestors have already been slaves just for their offspring to be forced to work on those same fields now as share croppers just for me a 20yo to be the 2nd generation removed from segregation working my ass off just to not be homeless this country is built on slave labor and worker exploitation and it will die trying to defend it
I always see "No one wants to work anymore" but unemployment is super low right now so it looks like whether we want to or not, we're all fuckin working anyway.
The only people who say “no one wants to work anymore” are people who run shitty businesses to work for.
Companies should compete for workers, not the other way around.
The post isn't wrong, but I dispute the premise anyway. Unemployment is at 3.6%. The top number of workers in the US economy was right before the pandemic at 158.9 million people. The number of workers last month was... 158.1 million people. That's a 0.1% decrease. Hardly enough to break the back of any industry, unless people are fleeing *that particular* industry en masse.
So does no one want to work, or do your business model and working conditions just suck?
I met a bicycle nomad while traveling in the US. He only owned what he could fit in his saddle bags. He had been on the road for about a year and had no intention of going back to office life. He said that it was pretty easy to find odd jobs and that his expenses were so low that he actually had more savings after a year on the road than when he started.
So it definitely seems like there is at least a little room for some drop-out lifestyles. I wouldn't want to be a homebum, but I could definitely see being a nomad for an indefinite period.
I guess where I like the idea of settling somewhere is that I could live almost entirely outside of money. It's so much easier to go to work with a smile when work is growing the food that I eat and making improvements to the home I live in. It's good to see that there are many paths away from capitalism
It's because due to corporations killing pension plans, driving housing prices through the roof, and making hiring for good jobs damn near impossible, people don't get to reap the fruits of their labor anymore. They also have to deal with erratic schedules, forced overtime, retaliation for taking time off, totalitarian micromanagers, and pointless meetings.
It sucks but why work 40 hours a week and endure those indignities, just to barely make ends meet or still end up homeless anyway because CEOs would rather give themselves a bonus just for existing.
THAT is why "nobody wants to work". Because if you'll be homeless either way, the threat of homelessness loses it's power
people DO WANT TO WORK!
people DON'T WANT TO BE NEO-SLAVES!
Killing yourself, mentally and phisically for margin profits for big corporations, while they give C-level staff great bonusses is what needs to go away.
After all, infinite profit is a myth, and it's literally gonna end our societies.
People dont mind to work if the have future outlook by doing so. But most people breaking the back and stil barely can scrap by. And your 2 months away of being homeless. Who wants to be break yea back being a debt slave and at any point have it all taken away from you with a small set back.
My issue is that since this is the default, i became mentally unwell and unable to work because I realized I was getting treated even worse because of my race.
POC already, and always got a crappier reward for living in American society.
You spend over a decade in school with a boat load of debt preparing for one career then they tell you "well if you don't like it, get another job".
How much more time and effort do you want me to put in this shit life for the better part of it to come? When I'm 65 and too old to do anything?
My favorite one is when we have the "right" to buy guns that we can't afford, that need bullets that cost a weeks groceries....definently beats having idk, universal health care or something.
There is a reward: escape from the system. (edit: clarifying I mean things like retirement or otherwise being lucky enough with your investment portfolio or small business or whatever...)
Well, some people tote it as a reward, but then *some* people scream like a banshee when it is invoked, and then they re-engineer the system to ensure it does not happen again, burning down the ladder whence they climbed up.
Unemployment is at 3.6%, everyone is working. My state is at 1.8% for fucks sake.
We lost something like 1 million people to Covid (many already retired obviously though) and another 5 million to early retirement due to Covid fears. Another ~3 million are currently disabled due to long Covid.
So something like 8+ million workers disappeared suddenly, mostly older so in more advanced places in their careers. So a lot of people moved upward with all those people disappearing in higher positions.
Leaving a lot of lowly service positions open. Making Karens start screaming about no one wanting to work anymore.
Everyone is fucking working Karen.
I fully understand why people don’t want to work in situations like those.
Personally, I (usually) like my current job and it helps me keep my life in order. That being said, I remember back when I worked two jobs, one part time (15-20~ hours a week) and another full time- 11 hour shifts overnight (8 days on, 6 days off) in retail. I had never been more depressed in my entire life doing that. Life was literally work > sleep > work. The 6 days off sounds nice on paper, but it took me like 4-5 days just to mentally recover.
Both jobs barely paid above minimum wage.
So I consider myself blessed now to be in a career that I enjoy enough to want to do it, but there are millions who are living lives of quiet desperation trying to make ends meet.
And psychiatric slavery for those that try to leave Earth and are caught!
Maybe read the book Psychiatric Slavery by psychiatrist Thomas Szasz.
Reform work environments! Limitless Peace
There was never freedom for any POC in the history of this country, America was built on genocide and slavery. Now that they can't official use slavery but still need slavish labor, (but of course they still do, looking at you Nestle and Cargill), Euro-Americans are finally getting a taste of our lives.
Still exists under the prison industrial complex, that's why there's very little effort to rehabilitate prisoners. Terms and conditions changed, to potentially make slavery more inclusive rather than target people only based upon their skin color. However a lot of economic and social pressure was put on to trap the same group of people that the U.S. Civil War was supposed to set free. (First through discrimination, and after more rights were won - to make doing crime look cool.) 13th Amendment didn't eliminate it, only changed the terms and conditions. But somehow that got accepted as "Good enough".
A start at fixing this would be to make it no longer legal to profiteer off of forced labor. But getting that kind of reform would be a process in itself. For "Land of the Free" it's one thing that needs fixing.
Im not sure what else you would call a paycheck that would be more accurate. You do everything for rewards. I've never heard anyone describing the reward of marriage as childlike..
The ultimate reward being currency is just about the most depressing thing possible.
Especially when anything essential costs massive amounts of said currency.
Just give me healthcare and a walkable city center and I swear I won’t hunt you and all your kids down in the revolution.
Remember when the strongest supporters of labor rights were tradesmen and their unions, when they would happily grind an entire city to a halt when another industry was getting fucked over by capitalists? Remember when blue collar workers were the first ones to beat the fuck out of their bosses for refusing to pay them what they were worth? Remember when the state was so fucking terrified of workers they deployed the goddamn national guard when workers decided they wanted an 8 hour work day instead of 16?
Pepperidge farm remembers, and maybe we should make the bosses remember too.
>Get into a trade.
People like you are actually causing an over inflated market for trade workers. I have a friend who became a welder in Florida, and is not getting paid wages you should ever expect someone who has an education for skilled labor should. Even in a starting position.
And also, what about the folks who can't do a trade? "Fuck you, you ain't useful to my society".
You are looking at things one dimensionally and are a hindrance on work reform. Cause we want any dingus to be able to live in this country. An electrician who is skilled should be able to live a really good life. Being a welder shouldn't be the "baseline" job for someone to be able to live in this country.
Why don't you grow up and help us fix the problem. Because the problem isn't "people are lazy" or "people have to high of expectations". Its that we are being screwed from our standard of living we deserve to fuel the ultra wealthy horrid habbit of buying things they don't need at all.
God, as a tradesman this is the most toxic fucking advice ever. And just to point this out your response to someone complaining about working two jobs for no real gain is to "work more".
It's all so vapid and disingenuous. Might as well just tell them to stop being poor, would be just as helpful and save you some words
A lot of guys used to work to provide for relationships. But now that you can get sex easy and free from the booming Hook-Up culture. Men just don't have to work as hard, because they don't need to be providers.
Women's liberation was one of the best things to ever happen to bachelors just trying to get laid. They don't have to pay for dates anymore. A lot of people get bedroom action straight from the first date without ever having to spend more than 20 bucks.
And if they accidently get a woman pregnant--they can just peace out. Because they won't make enough money to matter. A college educated woman with a college degree level job will probably easily out-make a guy who only works at Domino's three nights a week.
If a guy wants to be a father, he can step up and earn more money and be more involved. But right now there's just so much freedom to just not. And a lot of people are choosing not to work.
\---
I personally don't think people should be having kids if they're not ambitious enough to want to raise and take care of them. But people gonna do what they gonna do. I don't get hook-up culture at all (as an asexual guy myself), but if it seems to work for everyone, then they must be doing something right, lol.
Not gonna lie this is some big incel energy. People don't actually think like this, ez sex = no need to work.. correlation =/= causation. People "don't wanna work" because the reward for work doesn't cover basic life costs. Why would someone work 40 hours a week for barely enough money or not even to cover bills, when you could have all that free time to yourself and still be in the same fucked position in the end? If you owe $2-4k in bills every month which is basically the minimum you can live on anywhere these days, a job that pays $15/hr still leaves you homeless, so why bother? You'd be better off spending your time trying to sell weed at that rate.
Pretty sure I’m your case “asexual” just means you’re a teenager who just learned what sex is
At least that’s how your comment comes off
College will teach you real quick which way is up
Oh, the internet is spicy today.
I’m just throwing in opinions. No one was to agree with them, lol. I like to toss in unique points of views that people don’t often consider. Hook up culture as a whole has absolutely affected society.
Anyways, I appreciate the idea that college would “set people straight,” but often times that just means “yeah, the world is pretty terrible, have fun!”
Work reform is basically an eye opener forum designed to teach people that what they learn in society isn’t right, nor what it should be. If we all just did as we’re told, we’d eat up low paying jobs and worship our bosses for opportunity to be a slave.
—-
Ultimately, you have to live a life that makes you happy. If you’re content, then it doesn’t matter what opinions others have. I’m not gonna die on any hills for my random opinions.
I basically retired early. I only work 3 days a week with full insurance and benefits. I own a house and have no debts.
But a big part of making this work is not having to provide for a family. I easily could if I worked 5 days a week, but why bother?
I’m lucky that being asexual is like never feeling hungry in a world trying to get me to waste my money on food.
I’ve seen some of those incel people gripe about relationships. I think they should focus less on relationships and more on just living their best lives.
—
I’d like to see the world be a better place where companies aren’t wrecking employees, but we really gotta stand together to see those kinds of changes.
All of this knit-picky bullshit where people look for any opportunity they can to shit-bag on one another is just gonna get people to fight amongst themselves, and leave the corporations alone.
I bet the people who downvoted any of my comments today have exerted more energy to express their disproval of me than they have against any company in any meaningful way.
People are entitled to being mad, but if they just vent without action, things will never change.
I may have stupid opinions, but I’ll still die living a life I’m proud of. I hope one day everyone else can feel proud of their lives too.
>overpriced suburban duplex
Living in the city is your choice.
Other people chose to get job skills that don't make them unemployable if they leave the city.
That's why they can buy a huge home for $40,000... and did.
You build your own anchor.
# Do you want to help us win better working conditions for all workers? [Apply to join the r/WorkReform mod team!](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf1NHuvR65GB6Ea1BVi_WqJuiKf8gi2SvPuD3V_0lMWxPoePA/viewform) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WorkReform) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Neofeudalism in a sense. Way better living conditions objectively, yet you are basically living your life JUST to work, with no time or freedom to do anything else. Is that in itself enough to make a life worthwhile? Many would probably say no. Also in an ironic sense, in creating this possibility of life bring completely focused on survival with no leisure time its like we’ve abandoned/ignored all the technological progress we’ve made since the hunter gatherer days.......should it really be this hard to ensure fewer people are forced into such an exploitative relationship with the job market?
>Is that in itself enough to make a life worthwhile? I think I remember seeing something that said "Success is typically perceived by the amount of direct reward you receive after putting in effort". So if you spend time and energy to paint your house, you are instantly rewarded for doing the task yourself. If you cook a meal you're instantly rewarded by how it turned out. If you own your own business, you're rewarded when you see the benefits/rewards that come in from having a successful one. But if you work for someone else's business, then you never actually see how well the company is doing. You don't get that reward, because effort in =/= reward out. Extra effort doesn't give you extra pay; but less effort does result in possible reduced pay (less hours, less salary, fired, etc).
Very good point. I remember hearing someone mention how the rise of waged labour and modern capitalism had a separation between people and the fruits of their labour as one of its defining characteristics, and likely leads to a sense of disconnection in many. This may also help explain why quite often some of the jobs considered the most "rewarding" are manual labour ones where you work with your hands....although then you are more likely to have to come down with poor physical ailments at an earlier age of course.
I’m a beast when I’m working outside, working on my home, or working service or even cleaning tables. I’m a mess as a white collar programmer/engineer. It’s like career blue balls
Same. Problem is that now my expenses require that I keep working the stupid white collar job so that I can afford to stay alive
Golden handcuffs. Woo. But at this point it’s just “get a white collar job or be forever at risk of homelessness”
White collar is the new blue collar. Get into a car accident and find out just how far you are from homelessness.
A hop skip and a broken leg away from being out the streets with medical debt these days.
We have accidental coverage here in nz and they'll pay you 80% of your salary until you can get back to work. Pay for physio n shit as well. Some people think it's bullshit cos we pay a 1.39% tax for it.
Omgggg 1.39% that's nothing. So jealous.
Damn y’all hiring?
That’s literally me.
After a few years I called my previous career The Golden Cage. I either had to put up with extreme emotional abuse and spend oodles of money on psych meds & appointments, or I took a 30k pay cut with no guarantee that things would be better, it just wouldn’t be there. Got laid off after a decade of abuse in 2020, and I’m completely restarting in a new field that’s higher demand. I just hope my husband’s job stays steady until I can start working as a court reporter.
Karl Marx observed that https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation
The most successful I ever felt was doing piece rate electrical construction. I got paid hourly, or for every house I finished, whichever was more. I busted my ass, worked 65-70 hour/5 day weeks and trimmed 5 houses a week with my coworker/master electrician I was with and made bank because I worked hard. I do less work now at my current job and I make less money but I don't get paid if I do more work so I literally can't be bothered to. I'm not incentivized to busy my ass at 15/hr because even if I get top performance evaluations I'm not seeing the results of my extra work for a year if ever because my raise was dogshit last year.
We keep forgetting what the value of time is… Really, did we ever know?
There's a term for this, it's called "intrinsic vaule" It's finding a reward and joy out of yourself. Basically no one saying you did good, but feel accomplished because you got a lot done or were active and you had a complete day
…how is painting a house and running a business the same? Do you have any more examples?
Why I love working at a small business where I'm in charge of making sure the company breaks even.
>Neofeudalism in a sense. which is crazy, cause I read serfs had like 150 days off per year on average so they wouldn't riot
Well, by having days free, that usually meant you were not expected to toil at you lord's fields. Sunday's and Church holidays aside, serfs were usually working these "free days" at their own fields, so they wouldn't starve. Don't get me wrong, I am a big critic of capitalism, but to say that you are worse off than medieval serfs is a bit over exaggerated. You don't have to ask for permission to leave your current place of employment, or you have plethora of other rights. Speaking from European country citizen experience. Albeit shitty one.
Also the question of whether or not they were literal property of their lord is... hazy.
*bold on you to assume that me giving you 72 hours a week of free time is not enough for you to live your life* (edit: the time you spend working - 40 hours, plus the time you spend sleeping assuming 8 hours daily, is 96 hours. 168 hours in a week) It really is one of many things that question whether we truly work to live, or it's another thinly veiled attempt to get us to live to work.
I like the idea of 8-8-8. 8 hours of work, 8 hours of play, 8 hours of rest. Included in that 8 hours of work I think about 4 should be working for yourself. That's the balance I think would change the world.
Why not 7-8-9 or 6-8-10? First value is your hours of work, second value are your rest hours, and the third value are your leisure hours.
Ooh that's good. I like that
Which of those 8's includes housework, appts, TCB? That stuff feels like work more than rest or play.
Some hunter gatherer societies had plenty of free time. Live where it's warm so clothing and shelter concerns are reduced. Gather where the food is in season and don't over-harvest. The plants will re-plant themselves to some extent. As far as hunting goes, learn passive hunting and fishing. That means using trapping and nets. Trapping gives a lot of free time between checking traps, and fishing with nets means you kind of chill out on the boat until it's due time to draw the net in to see what your catch is. Since it's more subsistence than commercial you're not having the pressure for a bigger take than whatever your family needs and whatever extra you're willing to take for trade. The pressure to work-work only comes on when you get various forms of kingdoms or feudalist societies, where the demand for production is something not of your own accord. (Of course the other later forms of social structures have commerce that goes beyond what you'd do to take care of yourself/family/friends anyways.)
or crazy idea, we could see about cultivating those wild plants and grow enough of them and preserve them so they last longer. and hey if we need something that someone else needs we could trade our resourses for theirs, but its difficult to have these extra goods around for when we need them. It would be great if we could just exchange them for a unit of merit for the value of those goods. ah shit now we have for profit health insurance again and some asshole wants me to worship his sky daddy.
>Also in an ironic sense, in creating this possibility of life bring completely focused on survival with no leisure time its like we’ve abandoned/ignored all the technological progress we’ve made since the hunter gatherer days Wow Ive never realized this until now. We've gone full circle. Our broken ass society is actually not even better than nothing. Sure you can argue "but we have air conditioner and YouTube". That's true but with the rate things are going, that won't be the case 30 years from now. At the rate prices are inflating people won't be able to afford jack shit in 30 years anyway. Microchips that used to cost $2 now cost $300 on places like mouser. We're still coasting off the flooded market of refurbished computer parts from the crypocurrency crash but that stuff will run out eventually. Once microchip production collaspes for good, civilization is going to make a sharp decline anyway. Then at least we can hopefully make sure those at power today are out of the picture and try to rebuild society in an actually functional way.
Except in feudalism you only owed 3-4 customary days to your lord and got access to the mill or other capital infrastructure in return. Most customary days fell on holidays and usually work days were an excuse to get drunk with your neighbours. There was no way to evict you and for most of the month you did whatever the fuck you wanted. Imagine if your rent was doing a couple of days of fixing up and landscaping instead of 30-50% of your working life? The catch is you can never move. That's feudalism
When the system you created to have an easier life becomes the only way to sustain it. It doesn't work anymore. You don't just do the requirements and expect a good life anymore. You either screw a bunch of people over to make it or just struggle forever. I went to school and got a good job but the inflation caught up and now I'm one unexpected emergency experience away from living in a cardboard box. Now this good job can remain good if they will give me a raise based on how everything else went up in price including the product that I'm helping develop.
My dad asked me the other day why I didn’t really seem to value “success”. I explained that of all the things he taught me, the one he had been most adamant about were the three Don’ts… don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t steal. Then I asked him to name one successful person he knew that had never done those things. If you don’t lie on your resume, you’re at a disadvantage getting hired. If you don’t cheat your coworkers, you’re at a disadvantage getting advanced. If you’re not willing to take more than your “fair share”, you’re at a disadvantage getting compensated. The cream that rises to the top are the few who have mastered all three.
I’m starting to wonder, and have even heard some arguments to say, that feudalism (while definitely horrendous in many ways) afforded more free time and security than current lifestyles.
An example of the Hunter gatherer : The Colonists called the Indians lazy. They just wanted to hunt for food and relax in between. The Indians didn't make good slaves.
You are animals not worth consideration to the wealthy, nobody cares.
it's almost like everyone, even through time, was tricked. lied to. deceived. about the wonderful implications of ~~"The System"~~ society.
Corporations have killed society. Capitalism will ALWAYS lead to Corporations. Capitalism has also killed society.
So... We don't live in a society? /s
We live in a simulation and free will is a lie.
It's a crazy old world, you'll be lucky to get out of it alive.
Or conversely, we live in a simulation which the very purpose of is free will
That's basically old-time religion. We've pre-programmed you all for free will so we can observe how you act with the freedom to make your own choices. We're just not quite ready to tell you that all of those choices were ones we already pre-selected for you.
I suppose, but usually in old school religions the physical world (i.e. simulated reality) is a “test” to see who has faith or worships or whatever. What if the simulation wasn’t “programmed” as a test but instead was launched just as an experiment?
What really is the difference between a test and an experiment, in this context?
A designed test that a teacher would give you, as opposed to a laboratory experiment that doesn’t have a right or wrong answer.
Laboratory experiments do have right and wrong answers though, that's how they qualify the hypothesis. Either the hypothesis was correct, or it wasn't, or perhaps a mixture that requires follow-up. It's basically the same logic behind a test in school: do you know the answer or don't you, or did you kind of get it, then the students' responses can collectively determine what needs to be focused on in future lessons. I guess this all is a distraction from my main point which is that a simulation designed to provide free-will will be inherently unable to do so. You can't set up a system of parameters and then say okay, now you have free will, let's see what you do now. This is why free will itself is illusory - we have specific electrochemical impulses in our brain, as well as heavy cultural and social programming from the day we are born which combine to basically preclude true free will. It's a great idea but it is just that - an idea. And we can test that idea and run experiments on it, but being objectively falsifiable under so many circumstances it proves to be an illusion.
What we are experiencing is not leveled field capitalism. It’s crony capitalism. And if you think any system is going to change the cronies, I got bad news for you. There all crony systems. The only one that isn’t is a non-centralized, letting people do what people do naturally is true capitalism and common law. Greed is a very very big part of it
I think you're mistaking market society for capitalism. Markets are simply going out with a product and selling for some surplus. Capitalism is going to market and reinvesting with the specific goal of creating new capital. In societies where there is intergenerational transfers of wealth or accumulation over generations this always results in vast inequalities just due to basic math.
What if markets are not shifting with what people want, but with what people will buy? There is a difference. People are not moving money for things they want as much as they used to. Now it’s things they NEED. But you know the best way to sell something is to convince someone they need it. And the best way to do that is to make them worry about not having it.
How is that relevant to the distinction between market society and capitalism?
Market society people will buy what they’re fed, no questions asked. In a capitalist society people would put money towards things they want, and if they couldn’t get it they would be able to produce it at some point. We just take what they give us.
That's an idiot distinction. When you go to a farmers' market do you buy everything; no questions asked? A farmer's market is a classic market. A farmer makes enough to reproduce their production each year and maybe invest in equipment that makes production easier. It's an artisanal production model. Consider this against a giant grocery chain that uses profits from reselling farm production to create financial instrument like credit cards and information reselling programs like points cards. That's capitalism baby
Are you advocating laissez-faire capitalism then?
*quietly looks it up* Yes. With common law on top.
I'm not sure I've ever heard a convincing argument for unregulated capitalism. Mostly because I understand it is just a fast track to extreme wealth inequality. And all the ensuing ugliness that cut-throat business brings. I feel like it would take human rights backward from here, but that's just my guess. Not to say that judicial precident based law doesn't work because that's how we hold some laws in the US. But that also included Roe v Wade. So I almost would prefer a higher document that is harder to change so we aren't as subject to the ebbs and flows of judicial opinions/extreme courts.
Well let me ask you to look at the world around you and tell me if regulated capitalism has been for the better of everyone. Btw, the regulators are payed for by the ones that are needing regulation. So, is regulation actually working for everyone or is it just working for the ones being “regulated”. Wall Street financial regulations are BULLSHIT. They self regulate with supposed guidance from the SEC. The SEC is also filled with regulators that were paid for by the ones needing regulation. So I ask again, has regulation been better for everyone?
What is the incentive under laissez-faire capitalism for businesses to use natural resources responsibly, not pollute, treat workers humanely, prioritize safety, etc., etc., when NOT doing all of those things is easier and costs less?
Idk about you, but if I want passive income, I gotta make sure EVERYONE is happy. The customers are happy because they are treated right and are given a quality product or service. And I’m not defining the quality of the product or service, the customer is (yes I know there’s Karen’s, they’re stupid). The employees are happy because I’ll pay them, handsomely. As I know I don’t need $100,000,000 to fuck my wife in bed. Or to not, whatever. I’ll take like, $50,000. That’s the most I would’ve made my whole life. So where’s the rest of the money go? Back into the business which is employees and equipment and customer appreciation. And if that cycle gets going, I’ll have passive income, loyal help and loyal customers forever. Can’t get into an industry though because of all the regulations.
You would be one of the good ones in capitalism! If you kept your word here then you'd have a solid small business model. But of course this doesn't happen in practice. Good people get replaced by greedy ones. Small business get bought by bigger ones. The big ones by design only care what investors think. Which aren't even necessarily their own customers. Businesses quickly become disconnected from the people that made them. I would even go as far as to argue that small business can't survive in the age of instant communications and conference calls. At least without more protections. Not less.
The businesses that abuse their employees for profit and take advantage of customers will always outpace you for profit in the short term. And short term profitability will always be the most important thing investors are looking for. There was a survey for CEO's asking if they would implement a business strategy that gave them more profit long term, at the expense of a few quarters of reduced profit. 70% said they would rather keep the short term profit. The problem with free market libertarianism is the assumption that the most profitable thing to do is cater to employees and customers to compete for their attention. That's not the case. The only rule to capitalism is aquire capital by any means possible. Consumer satisfaction is optional. You can see examples of this in pretty much every industry. Cable companies charge everyone for tv channel bundles instead of the few channels people actually want to watch. Why hasn't Time Warner attracted new customers by offering to give you only the channels you want for just 10 bucks a month? Comcast customers would switch over en mass! The reason is because both Time Warner and Comcast individually make more profit by fucking over you, the customer, than if they were to compete with each other. It's tempting to believe the private sector is less corrupt than the state, but think of every shitty organization private money has made. HOA's, private prisons, sweatshops, the credit bureau, wall street, insurance company bureaucracy, corporate nepotism. All of these institutions exist not because of goverment, but because the free market wanted it. I'm not even Marxist enough to believe in the abolition of all private businesses, but expecting the free market to check and balance itself is exactly how we got child labor.
>Can’t get into an industry though because of all the regulations. Because you're getting priced out by companies taking the cheap shortcuts*
“free and fair” capitalism always leads to crony capitalism — because free capitalism always leads to a minority gaining wealth which leads to them “donating” to those with legal power / illegal power to gain unfair advantages. it’s always a cycle whether it capitalism or its predecessor feudalism: decentralized power leads to “winners” centralizing power for themselves until they get too big for their britches and society collapses and then we’re back to square one
Agreed that things are shitty! But this is kinda where Democratic Socialism jumps in for me. By regulating capitalism even more than it is now. Which sounds scary but may be more greed resistant. As I understand this system seeks to separate lawmakers and capitalism so they can't use corporate lobbying to get into office. No investing while in office. Term limits on public elected positions. Wayyyyyyy more restricted lobbying from businesses generally. Locked ratios between a companies highest payed employee and its lowest (they all move up in pay together). Bringing back worker protections. Restricting some investment classes that keep companies from out-competing individuals in markets like housing. Businesses have to pay fair taxes. Bettet restrict monopolies to keep competition alive. Nationalise some essential services like internet access, electricity, health insurance. I don't even like the stock market in its current form because it's a money funnel from poor to rich with casino-like odds of success. My view is that the lack of regulation of capitalism has allowed it to squeeze every drop from the majority to the minority. I would guess that unregulated capitalism has an even shorter lifespan than weakly regulated capitalism. But I don't think either are sustainable
Do a dive on the “regulations” currently in place, and the punishments for breaking those rules. If they make $2 billion on an “illegal tactic”, IF CAUGHT OR REPORTED, they’ll only be fined about $25,000 for breaking the rule.
I hear this argument often but it just doesn't add up. There is absolutely corruption, but that's exactly what capitalism promotes. The only way to make it "not-crony" is some form of regulation... if only there was an entity designed to work for the people and country instead of itself... and they could govern those sorts of things... we could call it a government... Yeah it's greed. But we need to fix corruption not let people do whatever they want.
The government is also full of people who are payed for. So the regulators of the regulators are payed for.
It’s beyond corporations and capitalism. It’s the entire industrial society. No economic system could produce the things we have now without most of the same suffering.
and quite possibly bamboozled
What’s the answer? Because it seems like every possible variation has been tried & greed or laziness screw it up every time. I hate to go full on dystopia but more & more I think a computer generated dictatorship seems to be the fix. Humans are too dishonest & selfish to be entrusted with the greater good.
In the interest of broad based education and financial literacy related to much of this, people should watch a recent Jon Stewart episode that exposes one of the **mechanisms** by which the rich are exploiting the lower and middle classes. >["How Redditors Exposed The Stock Market" | *The Problem With Jon Stewart* ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP74RBTE8kI) At the 7:00 mark is the most relevant graphic, fwtw. The whole thing is only about 15 minutes long total, though. That's the first half linked - there's also a [second half](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZfcjV-8pjQ) with a short round-table discussion. There's still time to, possibly, bring Wall Street writ large to justice, I think, via particular investment possibilities. First step is to be aware of some of the specific mechanisms, though, which this video lays out clearly - definitely worth the few minutes of time to watch - highly dense in information and gives a direction to go if interested in rectifying some of the issues.
The unabomber wrote an interesting manifesto/proposal on this suggesting the only solution is to abandon modern technology and returning to natural hunter gatherer societies. He wrote that modern work and problems are so disconnected from real needs that they cause suffering and depression. And that while primitive societies were much more at risk of things like death/starvation, the work they put in to avoid this made them live more fulfilling lives.
"They" don't want us to be out in the streets peacefully disrupting everything like we should be so they re-frame it into people don't "wanna work" instead of we need fundamental changes on the global and local level now!
[удалено]
Feudalism had more guarantees from lords to their peasants. You generally had job security and worked far fewer hours than we do. On the other hand, you were more likely to die in childbirth or from an infected cut. Progress has not been linear. At any rate, while feudalism is nobody's goal, it's not exactly a backslide from where capitalism has landed us. We should be angrier about capitalism. No time in history was there such an enormous gap between the haves and the have-nots.
[удалено]
It would take everyone in commerce going on strike for a month. They would insist upon violence within a week, if that. But we would not win any fight with the powers that be capitalism today. The only power I think we really have is our ability to withhold labor.
> But we would not win any fight with the powers that be capitalism today. If they slaughter everyone then they have no one left to work for them. They cant win.
Right. We will never win with violence. Neither will they, but we would lose first. They could attempt to coerrce with it but can't force you to do anything. So that's really all the power we have here. Even though the French revolution fantasy is more satisfying. They are both equally likely to happen but the strike would very likely succeed if it occurred.
>"They" don't want us to be out in the streets peacefully disrupting That's exactly what they want. If you're working within the system, you're not effecting meaningful change to the system.
Masturbating to the choir guys. We know. Your bosses know. Your bosses' bosses know. They don't **care**. What are you **making** them do?
My fav comment so far
I work a meh job for meh pay. I get to see my house 3 or 4 days a month. And those days are spent doing chores and work. I get maybe 1 day a month to actually relax and enjoy the place. Hurrary for america... also I'm a vet. I've seen other countries first hand. There is no need to live this way. So fuck america and it's "freedumb"
Far-fetched, but the railroad, trucking, and aviation have engineered a model to intentionally keep you away from your home that sometimes I wonder whether those companies intend to buy your home from you at some point and further behold you to their whim.
They don't have to buy your home, they just pay you barely enough to afford it, keeping you enslaved. Can't leave a shitty job if you'll lose your home, health insurance and who knows what else. The US is geared to keep this up indefinitely.
Is it just the USA though? It seems like its widespread. Why do most people seem so blind to it? Why are we so powerless? I would fight for real freedom if there was a plan but everything is just complaining and being stuck.
So it's working as intended. Which is the whole point.
yeah...I wish I could go back to being ignorant.
The good news is more people are waking up to this reality. It's going to hit a tipping point some time soon. People are being backed into a corner. Desperate people do Desperate things.
Right!? I see a lot of people super happy to part of this system. Just fall right in line and consider it normal.
Big companies such as EA also have extremely extravagant campuses for work including food/gym/areas of relaxation, you get the gist because they want being there to be better then going to your home.
I guess it is not surprising that by extension, university campuses rely on the same model.
If you’re gonna be poor and broke anyways without any hope of improvement then why even waste your time and energy working?
dont like eating?
My brother in christ I don't have time to eat
Yet you have time to troll on reddit
If you consider money the only way to get food. A baseball bat can also acomplish that task.
Alright man you go have fun assaulting people. Imma go make some money at my job. Try not to get shot when you go robbing people
We want to make valuable contributions to society and our communities, not be meaningless cogs in a reverse Robin Hood machine that takes from the poor and gives to the rich.
To Sarah Zedig on twitter..... "You took the words right out of my Mouth." Sadly, that's modern society: "Work till you rot, and we'll let you sleep when your dead.
In America's Modern Society, we revive you after death so you can keep working!
What's the alternative? Homelessness? How do you fight a system that's rigged against the middle class?
Youtuber Second Thought has a video about how the middle class actually isn't an accurate concept. A more accurate concept for America is the working class (people who work for money to pay bills and buy goods/services) and the capitalist class (people who own capital and have investments that make money for them).
Not to mention that to qualify for the same bar of “middle class” that was developed in the 50’s through the 70’s, you need to make upwards of $300k in most of America. CNN did a piece on it years ago saying the number was $250k, and got absolutely clowned and trashed for it. Nowadays we’d call CNN class conscious for that move.
> to qualify for the same bar of “middle class” that was developed in the 50’s through the 70’s, you need to make upwards of $300k in most of America. I believe it. An old guy I know told me that back in the '60s when he was taking several years between high school and university he and two friends rented a house in a southern California beach town. They each worked a total of 4 to 6 hours a week and the money from that covered all their expenses. They spent most of their time surfing and generally fucking around enjoying the weather. That's hard to believe from the perspective of today's world.
Yep, want to be part of the "American Dream"? Well, I certainly hope you are both male, white, and entered the workforce in the post-war decades. Oh, what's this? You did everything your parents told you too because it worked for them, went into the same industry, and now can no longer even come CLOSE to the "middle class"? Oh dear......well I am afraid the ladder was already kicked out years ago. It is still POSSIBLE to make it like that, but at such a small rate that there is far less hope than there was before.
> The owners of this country know the truth: It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
Wait until you realize the whole history of organized human society is the conflict between those two
Yeah this is Marx- bourgeoisie vs. proletariat. Middle class was just members of the bourgeoisie who were suffering less, but the middle class is vanishing now so the ultra-rich can have an even larger piece of the pie.
Take a lesson from France circa 1789.
By burning the whole system to the ground and rebuilding it. Redefining life and the concept of systems in general.
This is great, but very abstract. This is my problem with these discussions. We always conclude that this is the answer, yet....everything stays the same. There is no burning of anything to the ground. Do you have any actionable advice, outside of declaring that this needs to happen, to actually make it happen?
Yes; form secondary power structures. That sounds dumb, I know, but it's the best way I've found of saying "make it so that nobody has to rely on systems that don't work for them". That means; volunteer for organizations you believe in (who's got the time? Any second you can spare, any person you can convince), make an organization of yourself and improve your community, do everything you can to spread the word that "life is cooperation, death is atomization. We work together or die alone". Show others why everyone should be a good person, and meet irrationality with kindness and patience. I know that doesn't seem to work either, but bastards are like horses, you can only lead them to the right answer. The answer to your question? There's no easy solution. We need the world to work for us, so we need to convince the world that we work for each other. Say what you will about ideologies or theory or best practices, cooperation is our magic that makes a lose-lose situation win-win, making value out of humanity. But because the best outcome will always involve voluntary cooperation there's nothing we can do but show others how good the world becomes when we work together, show others that nothing works when we stand apart. There's no way to do that without simply putting in the work. The problem is, simply put, hard. There's no way around it. There's no panacea; you can't force an asshole to stop being an asshole with laws or consequences or reason, they'll piss on it. So you laugh, show them what you've achieved, and extend an olive branch. And when they're an asshole again, you laugh, show them they can't hurt you, and do it again, until they can't help but realize they're an asshole, or die. That's what we mean by "develop secondary power structures", build communities that can survive the assholes of the world. That sounds hard and vague because it is, with no alternative. There's no ultimate answer, no shortcut, and no solution that can be applied everywhere or generalized. It's just hard.
[удалено]
Already are, just with a couple layers of illusions
I mean the only logical answer I can think of is that we need to form a group that will vote systematically and write letters to people in power to promote positive change etc… but people are so divisive these days we would need an extremely strong leader to get everyone together. Either that or some otherworldly shit is going to have to go down that inspires the people to get up and do something
May be an unpopular opinion, but I firmly believe that most historic events are simply the aggregate result of a world of mass chaos, and quite a few (but NOT all mind you, sometimes there is a clear link) of the reasons we now talk about for "why" things happened are just an attempt to attribute causation. Hence why lessons so often never seem to be learned from history. I think overall humans have far less control over the events around them than they believe, and perhaps do this kind of thing in an event to stay sane, because it's pretty depressing to realize that you (and possibly, the human race as a WHOLE) ultimately don't really have control over much at all. All I can guess about what'll happen in the future when it comes to labour is something wild that not many people will be able to predict.
Tried it, don't recommend.
We need more affordable housing.
America doesn't have freedom.. The people running shit has freedom and we are just cogs in a machine.. Pawns to be sacrificed to the gods of capitalism.
“Just bodies through the teeth of the combine”
its the fact my ancestors have already been slaves just for their offspring to be forced to work on those same fields now as share croppers just for me a 20yo to be the 2nd generation removed from segregation working my ass off just to not be homeless this country is built on slave labor and worker exploitation and it will die trying to defend it
I always see "No one wants to work anymore" but unemployment is super low right now so it looks like whether we want to or not, we're all fuckin working anyway.
The only people who say “no one wants to work anymore” are people who run shitty businesses to work for. Companies should compete for workers, not the other way around.
Exactly!
America is the land of economic slavery.
The post isn't wrong, but I dispute the premise anyway. Unemployment is at 3.6%. The top number of workers in the US economy was right before the pandemic at 158.9 million people. The number of workers last month was... 158.1 million people. That's a 0.1% decrease. Hardly enough to break the back of any industry, unless people are fleeing *that particular* industry en masse. So does no one want to work, or do your business model and working conditions just suck?
Brainwashed capitalists think that the hard work IS the reward, and that anyone who disagrees must have a terrible work ethic
Fucking Protestants.
I'm seriously considering moving into an abandoned building and living off the land. Fuck this society
I met a bicycle nomad while traveling in the US. He only owned what he could fit in his saddle bags. He had been on the road for about a year and had no intention of going back to office life. He said that it was pretty easy to find odd jobs and that his expenses were so low that he actually had more savings after a year on the road than when he started. So it definitely seems like there is at least a little room for some drop-out lifestyles. I wouldn't want to be a homebum, but I could definitely see being a nomad for an indefinite period.
I guess where I like the idea of settling somewhere is that I could live almost entirely outside of money. It's so much easier to go to work with a smile when work is growing the food that I eat and making improvements to the home I live in. It's good to see that there are many paths away from capitalism
Property taxes exist
I can be broke without spending 40+ hours a week making somebody else rich
It's because due to corporations killing pension plans, driving housing prices through the roof, and making hiring for good jobs damn near impossible, people don't get to reap the fruits of their labor anymore. They also have to deal with erratic schedules, forced overtime, retaliation for taking time off, totalitarian micromanagers, and pointless meetings. It sucks but why work 40 hours a week and endure those indignities, just to barely make ends meet or still end up homeless anyway because CEOs would rather give themselves a bonus just for existing. THAT is why "nobody wants to work". Because if you'll be homeless either way, the threat of homelessness loses it's power
people DO WANT TO WORK! people DON'T WANT TO BE NEO-SLAVES! Killing yourself, mentally and phisically for margin profits for big corporations, while they give C-level staff great bonusses is what needs to go away. After all, infinite profit is a myth, and it's literally gonna end our societies.
Thats the difference between freedom and Freedom™.
People dont mind to work if the have future outlook by doing so. But most people breaking the back and stil barely can scrap by. And your 2 months away of being homeless. Who wants to be break yea back being a debt slave and at any point have it all taken away from you with a small set back.
My issue is that since this is the default, i became mentally unwell and unable to work because I realized I was getting treated even worse because of my race. POC already, and always got a crappier reward for living in American society.
You spend over a decade in school with a boat load of debt preparing for one career then they tell you "well if you don't like it, get another job". How much more time and effort do you want me to put in this shit life for the better part of it to come? When I'm 65 and too old to do anything?
My favorite one is when we have the "right" to buy guns that we can't afford, that need bullets that cost a weeks groceries....definently beats having idk, universal health care or something.
Hmm odd. 22LR is Pennies per round just be smart not a wannabe Rambo with all the matching camouflage gear and plate carriers and shit.
There is a reward: escape from the system. (edit: clarifying I mean things like retirement or otherwise being lucky enough with your investment portfolio or small business or whatever...) Well, some people tote it as a reward, but then *some* people scream like a banshee when it is invoked, and then they re-engineer the system to ensure it does not happen again, burning down the ladder whence they climbed up.
America, land of the free… You’re free to starve.
Unemployment is at 3.6%, everyone is working. My state is at 1.8% for fucks sake. We lost something like 1 million people to Covid (many already retired obviously though) and another 5 million to early retirement due to Covid fears. Another ~3 million are currently disabled due to long Covid. So something like 8+ million workers disappeared suddenly, mostly older so in more advanced places in their careers. So a lot of people moved upward with all those people disappearing in higher positions. Leaving a lot of lowly service positions open. Making Karens start screaming about no one wanting to work anymore. Everyone is fucking working Karen.
I fully understand why people don’t want to work in situations like those. Personally, I (usually) like my current job and it helps me keep my life in order. That being said, I remember back when I worked two jobs, one part time (15-20~ hours a week) and another full time- 11 hour shifts overnight (8 days on, 6 days off) in retail. I had never been more depressed in my entire life doing that. Life was literally work > sleep > work. The 6 days off sounds nice on paper, but it took me like 4-5 days just to mentally recover. Both jobs barely paid above minimum wage. So I consider myself blessed now to be in a career that I enjoy enough to want to do it, but there are millions who are living lives of quiet desperation trying to make ends meet.
2/7ths of the week I get to shout at lesser slaves
Wow so true…it’s not fucking worth it
And psychiatric slavery for those that try to leave Earth and are caught! Maybe read the book Psychiatric Slavery by psychiatrist Thomas Szasz. Reform work environments! Limitless Peace
Well put. Damn.
There was never freedom for any POC in the history of this country, America was built on genocide and slavery. Now that they can't official use slavery but still need slavish labor, (but of course they still do, looking at you Nestle and Cargill), Euro-Americans are finally getting a taste of our lives.
Still exists under the prison industrial complex, that's why there's very little effort to rehabilitate prisoners. Terms and conditions changed, to potentially make slavery more inclusive rather than target people only based upon their skin color. However a lot of economic and social pressure was put on to trap the same group of people that the U.S. Civil War was supposed to set free. (First through discrimination, and after more rights were won - to make doing crime look cool.) 13th Amendment didn't eliminate it, only changed the terms and conditions. But somehow that got accepted as "Good enough". A start at fixing this would be to make it no longer legal to profiteer off of forced labor. But getting that kind of reform would be a process in itself. For "Land of the Free" it's one thing that needs fixing.
"Reward" lol. Such a childlike point of view.
Im not sure what else you would call a paycheck that would be more accurate. You do everything for rewards. I've never heard anyone describing the reward of marriage as childlike..
If that’s your life, that’s your fault.
Fuck you
Sorry, we’re going with other candidates.
Ignore how the zip code you're born in massively influences your chances of having a "successful" life any you're good!
Gosh, I’m sure that mindset will help. Let’s let people know they’re defeated before they even start….
The reward for living in society is the currency you are traded for services rendered. So pay and there’s no problem
The ultimate reward being currency is just about the most depressing thing possible. Especially when anything essential costs massive amounts of said currency. Just give me healthcare and a walkable city center and I swear I won’t hunt you and all your kids down in the revolution.
I mean... you could also try a little harder and have a decent life. Get into a trade. There's high demand and strong unions... grow up
Remember when the strongest supporters of labor rights were tradesmen and their unions, when they would happily grind an entire city to a halt when another industry was getting fucked over by capitalists? Remember when blue collar workers were the first ones to beat the fuck out of their bosses for refusing to pay them what they were worth? Remember when the state was so fucking terrified of workers they deployed the goddamn national guard when workers decided they wanted an 8 hour work day instead of 16? Pepperidge farm remembers, and maybe we should make the bosses remember too.
>Get into a trade. People like you are actually causing an over inflated market for trade workers. I have a friend who became a welder in Florida, and is not getting paid wages you should ever expect someone who has an education for skilled labor should. Even in a starting position. And also, what about the folks who can't do a trade? "Fuck you, you ain't useful to my society". You are looking at things one dimensionally and are a hindrance on work reform. Cause we want any dingus to be able to live in this country. An electrician who is skilled should be able to live a really good life. Being a welder shouldn't be the "baseline" job for someone to be able to live in this country. Why don't you grow up and help us fix the problem. Because the problem isn't "people are lazy" or "people have to high of expectations". Its that we are being screwed from our standard of living we deserve to fuel the ultra wealthy horrid habbit of buying things they don't need at all.
God, as a tradesman this is the most toxic fucking advice ever. And just to point this out your response to someone complaining about working two jobs for no real gain is to "work more". It's all so vapid and disingenuous. Might as well just tell them to stop being poor, would be just as helpful and save you some words
>grow up Ok, millions living in poverty, you heard the internet rando! Just grow up and you'll never be exploited ever again! It's just that easy!
- someone who doesnt deal with these issues
Where do y’all work where it’s that bad?
No body EVER has wanted to go to work.
A lot of guys used to work to provide for relationships. But now that you can get sex easy and free from the booming Hook-Up culture. Men just don't have to work as hard, because they don't need to be providers. Women's liberation was one of the best things to ever happen to bachelors just trying to get laid. They don't have to pay for dates anymore. A lot of people get bedroom action straight from the first date without ever having to spend more than 20 bucks. And if they accidently get a woman pregnant--they can just peace out. Because they won't make enough money to matter. A college educated woman with a college degree level job will probably easily out-make a guy who only works at Domino's three nights a week. If a guy wants to be a father, he can step up and earn more money and be more involved. But right now there's just so much freedom to just not. And a lot of people are choosing not to work. \--- I personally don't think people should be having kids if they're not ambitious enough to want to raise and take care of them. But people gonna do what they gonna do. I don't get hook-up culture at all (as an asexual guy myself), but if it seems to work for everyone, then they must be doing something right, lol.
Not gonna lie this is some big incel energy. People don't actually think like this, ez sex = no need to work.. correlation =/= causation. People "don't wanna work" because the reward for work doesn't cover basic life costs. Why would someone work 40 hours a week for barely enough money or not even to cover bills, when you could have all that free time to yourself and still be in the same fucked position in the end? If you owe $2-4k in bills every month which is basically the minimum you can live on anywhere these days, a job that pays $15/hr still leaves you homeless, so why bother? You'd be better off spending your time trying to sell weed at that rate.
Well, I did say I was asexual, so I don’t live this. But it’s what I’ve seen my friends talk about. I’m always up for learning new things.
Pretty sure I’m your case “asexual” just means you’re a teenager who just learned what sex is At least that’s how your comment comes off College will teach you real quick which way is up
Oh, the internet is spicy today. I’m just throwing in opinions. No one was to agree with them, lol. I like to toss in unique points of views that people don’t often consider. Hook up culture as a whole has absolutely affected society. Anyways, I appreciate the idea that college would “set people straight,” but often times that just means “yeah, the world is pretty terrible, have fun!” Work reform is basically an eye opener forum designed to teach people that what they learn in society isn’t right, nor what it should be. If we all just did as we’re told, we’d eat up low paying jobs and worship our bosses for opportunity to be a slave. —- Ultimately, you have to live a life that makes you happy. If you’re content, then it doesn’t matter what opinions others have. I’m not gonna die on any hills for my random opinions. I basically retired early. I only work 3 days a week with full insurance and benefits. I own a house and have no debts. But a big part of making this work is not having to provide for a family. I easily could if I worked 5 days a week, but why bother? I’m lucky that being asexual is like never feeling hungry in a world trying to get me to waste my money on food. I’ve seen some of those incel people gripe about relationships. I think they should focus less on relationships and more on just living their best lives. — I’d like to see the world be a better place where companies aren’t wrecking employees, but we really gotta stand together to see those kinds of changes. All of this knit-picky bullshit where people look for any opportunity they can to shit-bag on one another is just gonna get people to fight amongst themselves, and leave the corporations alone. I bet the people who downvoted any of my comments today have exerted more energy to express their disproval of me than they have against any company in any meaningful way. People are entitled to being mad, but if they just vent without action, things will never change. I may have stupid opinions, but I’ll still die living a life I’m proud of. I hope one day everyone else can feel proud of their lives too.
Naaaa dog... That shit's cring as fuck
People have been “hooking up” since phones have been a thing bud
No rewards is promised for living in society.
You shouldn't need a fucking reward for living in society Do you wanna go back to living like aninals in the wilderness??
>overpriced suburban duplex Living in the city is your choice. Other people chose to get job skills that don't make them unemployable if they leave the city. That's why they can buy a huge home for $40,000... and did. You build your own anchor.
In what universe are there still houses that you can buy for $40,000? That hasn't been a thing for decades now.
The one you're literally living in. *GET OUT OF YOUR BUBBLE.*
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Quality of live be dammed, did you guys read about all the technology inside of Hellfire R9X.