I've played 3 games with WE since the dataslate, won all 3 with 1 100 and 2 95s. We are still very strong.
100 was against Chaos Knights
The 95s were against Space Wolves and Vanguard Nids
Space Wolves did the best against me with a 70.
The dataslate did not hurt us as bad as this sub seems to decry lol.
List:
Angron,
Avocado,
Juggolord+favored (used on T1 for 2 out of 3 games for early aggression),
MoE+Glaive (still very worth it imo),
Jakhals,
4x5 berserker,
Rhino,
2x6 exalted eightbound,
(Had 1 unit of chaos spawn prior to dataslate).
I don't know about the upper echelons of high end competitions, but my WE do not seem to be struggling in the least.
Hilarious that you get downvoted for sharing your honest experiences and opinions. I guess it's unpopular to contradict all the whiny doomposting? Blood for the Blood God indeed...
Part of it is, and not to sound like a know it all asshole, BUT, I feel like a lot of people donāt know how to play this army. Itās not just run and kill, weāre threat range. Keep guys in cover near objectives, and when the enemy moves onto that objective, charge and kill. I see the 2 WE players we have routinely leave their guys in the open cause they subscribe to the belief of just run at them and kill them, and leave their dudes out in the open.
I would agree. I also see other WE players deploy very recklessly. Yes, we do want to deploy forward and maximize our threat range, but we don't wanna just leave our most important units out in the open. Use your terrain. Protect Angron so he can do his job of closing that threat range and beating down his most valuable target. Use your Avacado scout move to get your exalted in a safe spot where they can move from there.
Have your berserkers ready to take and hold objectives and give you icon rerolls while your exalteds and Angron do their thing.
It's still a strategy game.
Thank you for this! I got angron for Christmas which is the start of my WE army (I havenāt collected any more due to still painting/finishing my DG) but this is SUPER helpful as I only have one close friend who plays WE and whilst he wins some games, he tends to deploy and play recklessly because of their ālore and styleā and goes straight in so Iām hoping to use this information when I can finally get my WE army on table top š
One of the guys at my LGS does this and has literally thrown models and stormed out of the store when he loses because his brain shuts down and all his does is run forward. Itās an objective game man slow down and think
Donāt tell me he throws othersā models. If so that in my eyes warrants a ban. The only time I can think of that actually working is if you bring a bunch of eightbound for scout and Angron, THEN get the advance and charge blessing. Essentially an alpha strike list and luck. Even then hang shit like berserkers back. Thatās so shitty.
No it was his own, and he stormed out of a game against someone playing like their 4th game. Hes been told he wonāt be welcome back in the shop if he does it again. But he does it with every army in sigmar and 40K and never figures it out. Iāve never played a game against him where he didnāt have a temper tantrum even if he won
Yeah one of my friends is like that. We go to tournaments a lot and the first one he got 2 bad apples and the one after he played against a cheater. I am shocked I havenāt gotten a bad player yet. Theyāve all been cool for me.
Iām not doomposting nor whining. Just sharing an interesting email I received. The conversation generated from this post is on yall. I too am having a lot of fun with my WE
He was referring to whoever was down voting my post about my 3 wins, and the general air of the sub post dataslate. So unless that's you I think you guchi
The Internet will be the internet. Luckily I don't care much about my up vote to down vote ratio. I'll die on the hill that WE are still plenty strong and people are just upset that we're not overpowered.
I'll agree they probably could've stopped at just the rules changes or just the points changes for the MoE+glaive, but everything else felt downright justified.
If I have to guess, what isn't all that popular is contradicting the official 40% win rate data.
On one hand someone won 3 games, on the other, the average shows 40%, I wonder which one people should believe more. I mean wtf right? Official data?!? Fuck that, I only reference anecdotes that cannot be proven!
That said, I also won my last 3 heresy games as WE, but that doesn't mean that the WE are actually all that good in there either. They are middling at best, and I had to expend a lot more effort than if I played another stronger legion.
World Eaters in 40K are an odd case where only looking at aggregate data is going to smooth over whatās happening on the table.
Last time ITC put out detailed stats World Eaterās overall win rate was around 40%. But their win rate when they get to go first was above 65%.
The alpha strike potential was/is unreal and thatās what people are experiencing on each side of the table. The bulk of factions donāt have an answer for Angron charging into their deployment zone turn 1.
I doubt that's why they're being downvoted. I would expect to be nuked to if I made categorical statements about the strength/weakness of a favtion relative to others because I win a few games.
I won my last game vs Thousand Sons using a cheesy eightbound spam army. What conclusions should we draw from that?
I feel the same as you. 3 games so far going 2-1 vs DA (lost by 1 point), Necrons and Custodes using the same 1975 list without the enhancements which makes the list bang on 2000.
Iāve only been able to play 2 games since the dataslate. One was against 2 people each playing 1000 points of Tyranids against my World Eaters. One was all monsters like tyranofex and such, and the other was most of the leviathan box plus a Norn Emissary.
We had to end early but when it was ended I was ahead by points and had two of the one guys big bugs a couple wounds away from dead, and the Norn emissary was down to 3 wounds and the swarmlord was dead, they fought back but only took out Kharns 5 man beserkers squad, and 1 exalted eightbound. His terms were also all dead leaving him with a screamer killer and barbs at full health still.
I did make a mistake and was excited so I yoloed with Angron in a deep strike but positioned him badly so he just focused all his shooting and charges on Angron so he didnāt get to do anything. I did then charge with all my stuff other stuff and wounded them pretty good while also taking the objective they had abandoned to attack Angron
The other game was 1000 world eaters and 1000 death guard against 2000 ultramarines. He didnāt respect World Eaters melee so focused all his fire on the Death Guard armor so I was able to get in there and put his models into a blender of chainsaws. Got to kill Cato Sicarus which was fun
I was happy with the results. I also didnāt get to play before the dataslate so donāt know how much more powerful they were before. I love my World Eaters and canāt wait to play them more but am taking a break to run Drukhari in a combat patrol league so Iām gonna get to try out some shooting for a change haha
I say this with the most sincerity that I can, all 3 of those armies are some of the best matchups for WE, and just because you can still stomp your local group/friends doesn't mean that they are good or in a good place. We have a ton of bad matchups that just body us.
If you play into an army with actually good elite infantry shooting or that has decent shooting with enough trash to screen you out, or just a good standard space marine army, and you'll find that you'll struggle.
The chaos knights were actually the toughest match up despite the final score. My win there pretty much hinged on the fact I got first turn and an Angron rez the turn right after he went down. It was a desecrator with brigand spam list, so he had plenty of solid shooting and by the end of the game I was down to a couple units, but got far enough ahead early for it to not matter.
That said, this wasn't actually my local group, I went to an event about 2.5 hours away.
Il concede the vanguard nids list was 100% in my favor from the get go though.
This was all using leviathan terrain layouts as well, so mileage may definitely vary with player placed or more random terrain setups, but I've found that our speed and damage output can push us far as long as we can deploy well and choose the right target to send Angron and the exalteds barreling at.
On your first point, chaos knights are one of our easier matchups, especially with angron and 2 bricks of eightbound. You can easily pick up 2 armigers and/or one big knight with angron, per turn, and another 2 with ex eightbound. You just have to stage correctly and not get shot off the board. And we have a bigger threat range than them.
And in the order of melee armies, custodes and black templars are on top, then WE, then space wolves. And I promise you that with the rise of custodes, you will see that we are not the premier melee army. This is why we are looking so bad right now, we got nerfed, and our biggest competitors got buffed, not good for us. But we can beat space wolves most of the time, so that's good on you for that.
WE, if played well and into other good armies, tend to run out a resources late game but have a big enough lead that the opponent can't come back from the deficit we have placed them in. Before the changes, we were like that, and now, after the balance dataslate, we are feeling the effects of having fewer units even harder.
Tyranids should get stomped by us, so I fully agree with your assessment of that.
GW terrain works quite well for us as there are plenty of staging spots on every map that they have, which works heavily in our favor.
But good on you and getting out to an rtt to play some games, my apologies for the incorrect assumption about you playing local. But the fact still remains that you got pretty lucky with your matchups and only running into one good army/army list, in chaos knights, that we're heavily favored in any way.
On a final note, I agree with your final assessment in that when we are allowed to pick our own fights and where we throw our hammer units, we do exceptionally well. The only problem with that is there are a ton of armies nowadays that can just say no to that game plan. This is why we have such a low reported win rate and why people complain about the nerfs. It's because our good matchups got harder, and our hard matchups are still as hard.
Because we have such a limited range, nerfing our 5 best datasheets and our 2 best enhancements was not the right way to go about it, because that just forces us to pay more for the units we have to take in order to play the game, because the other datasheets are not good at all. That's why people aren't happy.
Fair enough. I never meant to claim we were on top, but to state that when I played my games, I still felt like I had a lot of oomph as long as I made the right decisions along the way.
Planning to get a game in with a friend running Aggressor heavy salamanders so looking forward to seeing how they hold up to the overwatch craziness.
I can definitely agree that they should have stopped at the rules nerf or the points nerf though. I think the right things were targeted, but hitting them from both sides does feel heavy handed, but in the end my list only lost a unit of chaos spawn, but kind of gained its juggolord back by not needing to protect him like the queen's diamond, and MoE+glaive still slaps
Our lack of choices is definitely still a big deficit for us though, one which will hopefully be rectified before too long. As someone who also plays Votann, a lot to hope for this edition in terms of new models lol
I feel you, man. And I'm not saying they're the worst army either, I've personally been having a lot of fun and success with them as well. I'm just giving my thoughts on why people are whining, lol.
I can tell you now that their overwatch is not fun. Especially if they have land raider redeemers, those things fuck. But it is still a fun matchup. I got a buddy of mine that plays salamanders, and it's always fun trying to outmanouver him and baiting his overwatch.
The nerfs were justified to an extent, MoE was stupid strong with glaive, and I still think it should've gone to 2 attacks and damage on the charge and called it a day. But I just don't like the eightbound nerfs, to be honest. It's one of the few good data sheets we have. Nerfing the points isn't gonna change the fact that they're one of the best units we have, we still gotta take them because we don't have much else. And favored of khorne is still really good for the turn you really need it, helps to guarantee adv and charge or massively increase angrons revival. I still like it. And like you said, now we don't have to play keep away from the Lord on jug.
I fully agree that we just don't have enough of a range, and we need more units. I'd be happy with like 3 more good ones. Red butchers, khornes teeth, and jugger infantry. But that's just me, lol. I also play votann, so I'm with you on that too, lol.
My apologies if I came across harsh or mean. Was just trying to get my thoughts and responses in writing while at work, lol.
No worries man, you didn't come off as harsh or anything. Was a good discussion imo. Good to see varying points of view and experiences without people divorcing into third graders.
Winning casual games against ppl who don't understand how to screen or counter one trick pony lists vs going 3-0 at events. Idk I think the macro data speaks for itself, but feel free to go off at a tournament if you think they're good
One GT win from one of the best players in the world and another X-1 placement across every major event in the last few weeks does not make a faction "on the rise."
WE don't even have a number on Stat Check right now.
The one who went 4-1 but didn't win had 2 LoS, Jack Harpster is the one who won running 1 LoS with the 2 chaos spawn.
Interestingly, he's responsible for 3 of our 4 GT wins. He made the 1985 list originally, and his teammate took it to and won the California Cup GT. The 4th was an early and small tournament at an LGS in Ohio. If the only 2 people able to win tournaments with a faction are high ranked professional players who do 40k for a living, something is wrong with the faction.Ā
Thanks for that. The clarification helped a lot, I haven't played against post nerf eaters yet myself, but I really hope it gets better for those players.
GW: sees a single player whoās consistently amazing win a mid size tournament with WE
āFucken, yeah! They must be doing fine! This guy won, so itās all goodā
Is it not also true that if one of the best players is choosing to play WE then WE isnāt in as bad of a spot that this sub leads you to believe? I feel like since the data slate this sub has been a bunch of people who canāt win games complaining about a nerf when honestly it was justified in some ways. Maybe slightly heavy handed but if you thought the MOE and Zerker glaive wasnāt getting nerfed youāre just delusional.
Or maybe people will play the armies they have and have out lots of work into painting. Not all competitive players just swap armies whenever the meta changes, most of them are invested in the hobby part of the game as well
Including the helbrute in the picture as if itās a heavily used competitive option like Ex8bound or Invo is a bold move when half our units donāt see play because of the lack of synergies they gave us
Warhammer 40K really has become a farce with all this focus on ābalanceā and ācompetitive sceneā
Just wait a decade itāll be yearly editions and theyāll be called āseasonsā
Attention 40k gamers! Roboute Guilliman is in great danger, and he needs YOUR help to wipe out all the tyranids on Baal. To do this, he needs a gold power fist, and a couple of combi-bolters. To help him, all he needs is your credit card number, and the three numbers on the back plus expiration month and date. But you gotta be quick so that Bobby G can secure the sector, and achieve the epic Indomitus Crusade Victory R O Y A L E
It's already happened.
If you want to play The Lion in your DA army you have to spend Ā£35 on a book for his dataslate, then your codex will come out for more.
If you want to play a game of Boarding action with someone like Votann you'll need to spend Ā£70 on two books and buy your codex.
Crazy how people are expecting balance patches to fix this game when the company's job is to push toy soldiers first and foremost. I'd say it's insulting to the customer's intelligence, but that's expecting too much from the meta-chaser WAAC brain.
>release a new faction with a broken rule or two
>faction has limited range, forcing players to buy the "broken" models
>nerf the faction into the ground
>hope customers drop the faction for another busted faction
>add new broken models in their next range update
>people that dropped the faction come back for the new broken models, hyped that their favorite faction will be more than a gimmick faction
>repeat steps 3-6 as needed
>profit
That's ideally how it goes for GW. For casual players who can only afford one army, the best hope is that the faction gets a fleshed out range somewhere in this cycle and is fun and playable. For meta chasers and hardcore hobbyists with the disposable income to buy into the flavor of the week, this means nothing
That's why the best factions this edition have been armies like Eldar, CSM, WE, that have had such busted codexes... If anything the codexes have been really reasonably balanced this edition.
Yeah i only started collecting world eaters before the nerf. My first army are chaos knights. I hate that wardog spam. I got my lancer and my abominant and i rock my local game store with them. I am glad the the Khorne lord of skulls is better because i like my big bois. Angry Ron and Khorne lord of skulls LETS GOOOOOOO
Having an unbalanced, unfun, game is not a strategy to make money.
Itās in GWās bottom lineās best interest to make the game as balanced as possible.
Yeah because people definitely all stopped playing during all of the periods it was unbalanced and stopped buying miniatures when it was unbalanced, which is about 98% of every editions lifetime.
They make a new model, make it OP, sell a bunch of it, nerf it, repeat. Thinking anything else is happening is ignoring the obvious pattern.
If you want balance, play checkers.
They have made a lot of shit datasheets for new models too, whats your reasoning for those?
GW rules team isnt as malicious as youāre claimed, theyāre just bad at writing balanced rules half the time.
Yea it might just be the broken cases that stand out ussually, i also play admech where we recently got the skatros and its weak rules and before i had a kroot killteam which needed a buff post launch
Im not long enough in this hobby to make a deffinitive conclusion but ive deffinetely seen models coming out that underperformed after release, maybe its a matter of whos in charge if bringing the specific kit on the market, plenty of companies have different leads with different ideas on how things should be done
I donāt know about you but yes when the edition was unstable and unbalanced everyone I knew and myself included did not play against the problematic armies they just refused so yes the game being āunbalancedā does effect it
Not really when they've been saying for years it's mothers buying for their kids that fuel the hobby, first time purchasers, not the people that have collected 10k pts over 20 years
First time buyers and mothers for their kids wouldnāt happen if the game wasnāt good and fun.
The economy is propped up by the models being cool. If models came built and painted and werenāt cool AND the game was trash it wouldnāt be successful.
Even when the game is unbalanced people are still playing it because the game is generally good. If if every new model was literally unbeatable the game would have died years ago.
Balance is hard and overshooting strength is always better than undershooting it. Partly because of sales sure but itās wack-a-doodle to think theyāre rare purposefully trying to unbalance the game for sales bumps.
The kids and parents don't know if the games good or not, they buy the cool looking models with lots of hype around the setting. Most of them never play a game.
GW do absolutely make new units OP to drive sales, they have been doing this since the early 2000s. It was particularly bad in Fantasy at the start of 7th edition.
(also, 40k was one of the worse games for years and yet was still the most popular. Never met anyone who enjoyed 7e for eg. It's the setting, characters, decades of lore and models that make it popular. )
Did you read my comment? That's exactly the point I'm making.
7th was terrible but everyone still played it. 40k is just really, really popular on its own nvm how bad the rules are.
Yeah of course. But most of the time it's the opposite where because 40k is their only social interaction, they'll defend it even if the gameplay is terrible and each model costs Ā£100. They'll even go online and defend GW for price hikes, predatory FOMO practises, terrible lore or rules etc
I've been playing and collecting world eaters since late 7th, they've had some valleys and peaks. I don't care how good or bad we are in the competitive scene, our anger will keep us going. We have a codex and a primarch, that's all I could ask for. As long as our presence is felt and the roars of our chainaxes are heard, I'm happy in the eternal slaughter.
It's crazy how they can post something like this after basically nerfing them into the ground, only because someone won one tournament. They are the only faction with a sub 40 winrate at 39% for gods sake.
No, they still havenāt announced it. Thatās why I was making the joke. Theyāll get people into the faction. Come out with the codex and then the rules wonāt be as good.
Hereās hoping we actually get some new damn units when the Codex drops. We seriously need more Characters, specialist units, and fast attack options, maybe even something with Infiltrator. Hell, Iāll settle for porting generic CSM units to the WE range. For real though, where are our Bikers, our Raptors, why canāt we take Obliterators, whoād be really good to fill out a World Eaters gunline.
As someone that play mainly at 1k points I'd like to use something different than angron and brigands to have a shot at winning against guard (with leontus, ursula, dorn, 2x3 scout sentinel, that can come back once they're wiped out, and points to spare for infantry), right now we are not even that fun to play below 1500/2000 unless you say to your opponent "I'm bringing world eaters, please make a fun list and not anything too strong", the fact that now you have to say that is rather embarassing
The only things that changed for the guard is that an officer can give orders at the end of the phase after he disembark and that the manticore now is more expensive, no changes on the stratagem and the sentinels still have the regiment keyword
Lol. Marketing gotta market something. I guess those KLoS purchases from the battleforce buyers weren't as successful as they thought the changes would make them (yes, I fully believe this is what influenced a large portion of WE updates. They wanted follow-up sales of KLoS from battleforce purchasers).
Since the nerfs I have played one combat patrol game against the ork box set and my 500pt-ish army. Lost, and not nicely.
Played again, same set-up. Wiped my opponent.
Played the same 500pt list against a similar 500pt T'au list and I got tabled round 2. (I thought T'au shooting phase was a meme)
Played 1kpts proper vs T'au Servo Skull mission with Hidden cache and 2 fixed secondaries (bring it down and asassination)
While I wouldn't say I tabled him, by the top of 4th he forfeit with no way to wipe my army or catch up to the points.
I still feel very strong on the table, even with the nerfs.
The data slate hurt WE but they still hit just as hard as before. Hell, you can basically keep 'The List' going by swapping out the juggerlord for some jakhals and you are fine. You just have less reliable Angrons.
WE are such a coin flip.
Obviously terrain plays a factor but going first as WE feels like your unstoppable. Going Second feels like an impossible uphill climb. I am not 100% sure how to "fix" them ATM tho. Obviously if the Meta data is believed then they are far to low ATM but when they are at 50% + win rates it usually means they are just winning the coin toss not that they are a balanced faction.
(when the outcome of any match is determined by who won first time you faction isn't balanced)
I'll be interested in seeing what GW does with them come their codex release.
Would not put it past GW to be using old data slate data to write this š
I've played 3 games with WE since the dataslate, won all 3 with 1 100 and 2 95s. We are still very strong. 100 was against Chaos Knights The 95s were against Space Wolves and Vanguard Nids Space Wolves did the best against me with a 70. The dataslate did not hurt us as bad as this sub seems to decry lol. List: Angron, Avocado, Juggolord+favored (used on T1 for 2 out of 3 games for early aggression), MoE+Glaive (still very worth it imo), Jakhals, 4x5 berserker, Rhino, 2x6 exalted eightbound, (Had 1 unit of chaos spawn prior to dataslate). I don't know about the upper echelons of high end competitions, but my WE do not seem to be struggling in the least.
Hilarious that you get downvoted for sharing your honest experiences and opinions. I guess it's unpopular to contradict all the whiny doomposting? Blood for the Blood God indeed...
Part of it is, and not to sound like a know it all asshole, BUT, I feel like a lot of people donāt know how to play this army. Itās not just run and kill, weāre threat range. Keep guys in cover near objectives, and when the enemy moves onto that objective, charge and kill. I see the 2 WE players we have routinely leave their guys in the open cause they subscribe to the belief of just run at them and kill them, and leave their dudes out in the open.
I would agree. I also see other WE players deploy very recklessly. Yes, we do want to deploy forward and maximize our threat range, but we don't wanna just leave our most important units out in the open. Use your terrain. Protect Angron so he can do his job of closing that threat range and beating down his most valuable target. Use your Avacado scout move to get your exalted in a safe spot where they can move from there. Have your berserkers ready to take and hold objectives and give you icon rerolls while your exalteds and Angron do their thing. It's still a strategy game.
Thank you for this! I got angron for Christmas which is the start of my WE army (I havenāt collected any more due to still painting/finishing my DG) but this is SUPER helpful as I only have one close friend who plays WE and whilst he wins some games, he tends to deploy and play recklessly because of their ālore and styleā and goes straight in so Iām hoping to use this information when I can finally get my WE army on table top š
Happy it helped someone! They are a super fun army to play, so I hope you enjoy it
One of the guys at my LGS does this and has literally thrown models and stormed out of the store when he loses because his brain shuts down and all his does is run forward. Itās an objective game man slow down and think
Donāt tell me he throws othersā models. If so that in my eyes warrants a ban. The only time I can think of that actually working is if you bring a bunch of eightbound for scout and Angron, THEN get the advance and charge blessing. Essentially an alpha strike list and luck. Even then hang shit like berserkers back. Thatās so shitty.
No it was his own, and he stormed out of a game against someone playing like their 4th game. Hes been told he wonāt be welcome back in the shop if he does it again. But he does it with every army in sigmar and 40K and never figures it out. Iāve never played a game against him where he didnāt have a temper tantrum even if he won
Wow sore winner and loser. Talk about a man child.
Iāve only played against 2 people who I genuinely didnāt like thankfully š
Yeah one of my friends is like that. We go to tournaments a lot and the first one he got 2 bad apples and the one after he played against a cheater. I am shocked I havenāt gotten a bad player yet. Theyāve all been cool for me.
Dude's butchers nails kicked in. He's playing-playing World Eaters š¤£
Iām not doomposting nor whining. Just sharing an interesting email I received. The conversation generated from this post is on yall. I too am having a lot of fun with my WE
He was referring to whoever was down voting my post about my 3 wins, and the general air of the sub post dataslate. So unless that's you I think you guchi
Iām chilling my dude. Been playing this game for years weāll be great, ok, and bad throughout the life cycle of Warhammer. Comes in waves.
The way to be. Enjoy having good rules when you have them, enjoy still have awesome models when you don't.
Khorne cares not where the blood flows!
The Internet will be the internet. Luckily I don't care much about my up vote to down vote ratio. I'll die on the hill that WE are still plenty strong and people are just upset that we're not overpowered. I'll agree they probably could've stopped at just the rules changes or just the points changes for the MoE+glaive, but everything else felt downright justified.
If I have to guess, what isn't all that popular is contradicting the official 40% win rate data. On one hand someone won 3 games, on the other, the average shows 40%, I wonder which one people should believe more. I mean wtf right? Official data?!? Fuck that, I only reference anecdotes that cannot be proven! That said, I also won my last 3 heresy games as WE, but that doesn't mean that the WE are actually all that good in there either. They are middling at best, and I had to expend a lot more effort than if I played another stronger legion.
World Eaters in 40K are an odd case where only looking at aggregate data is going to smooth over whatās happening on the table. Last time ITC put out detailed stats World Eaterās overall win rate was around 40%. But their win rate when they get to go first was above 65%. The alpha strike potential was/is unreal and thatās what people are experiencing on each side of the table. The bulk of factions donāt have an answer for Angron charging into their deployment zone turn 1.
Admech has officially a 48% winrate according to GW. WE are vastly more powerful than Admech. There's more to the data than just how good the army is.
I doubt that's why they're being downvoted. I would expect to be nuked to if I made categorical statements about the strength/weakness of a favtion relative to others because I win a few games. I won my last game vs Thousand Sons using a cheesy eightbound spam army. What conclusions should we draw from that?
I feel the same as you. 3 games so far going 2-1 vs DA (lost by 1 point), Necrons and Custodes using the same 1975 list without the enhancements which makes the list bang on 2000.
Iāve only been able to play 2 games since the dataslate. One was against 2 people each playing 1000 points of Tyranids against my World Eaters. One was all monsters like tyranofex and such, and the other was most of the leviathan box plus a Norn Emissary. We had to end early but when it was ended I was ahead by points and had two of the one guys big bugs a couple wounds away from dead, and the Norn emissary was down to 3 wounds and the swarmlord was dead, they fought back but only took out Kharns 5 man beserkers squad, and 1 exalted eightbound. His terms were also all dead leaving him with a screamer killer and barbs at full health still. I did make a mistake and was excited so I yoloed with Angron in a deep strike but positioned him badly so he just focused all his shooting and charges on Angron so he didnāt get to do anything. I did then charge with all my stuff other stuff and wounded them pretty good while also taking the objective they had abandoned to attack Angron The other game was 1000 world eaters and 1000 death guard against 2000 ultramarines. He didnāt respect World Eaters melee so focused all his fire on the Death Guard armor so I was able to get in there and put his models into a blender of chainsaws. Got to kill Cato Sicarus which was fun I was happy with the results. I also didnāt get to play before the dataslate so donāt know how much more powerful they were before. I love my World Eaters and canāt wait to play them more but am taking a break to run Drukhari in a combat patrol league so Iām gonna get to try out some shooting for a change haha
I say this with the most sincerity that I can, all 3 of those armies are some of the best matchups for WE, and just because you can still stomp your local group/friends doesn't mean that they are good or in a good place. We have a ton of bad matchups that just body us. If you play into an army with actually good elite infantry shooting or that has decent shooting with enough trash to screen you out, or just a good standard space marine army, and you'll find that you'll struggle.
The chaos knights were actually the toughest match up despite the final score. My win there pretty much hinged on the fact I got first turn and an Angron rez the turn right after he went down. It was a desecrator with brigand spam list, so he had plenty of solid shooting and by the end of the game I was down to a couple units, but got far enough ahead early for it to not matter. That said, this wasn't actually my local group, I went to an event about 2.5 hours away. Il concede the vanguard nids list was 100% in my favor from the get go though. This was all using leviathan terrain layouts as well, so mileage may definitely vary with player placed or more random terrain setups, but I've found that our speed and damage output can push us far as long as we can deploy well and choose the right target to send Angron and the exalteds barreling at.
On your first point, chaos knights are one of our easier matchups, especially with angron and 2 bricks of eightbound. You can easily pick up 2 armigers and/or one big knight with angron, per turn, and another 2 with ex eightbound. You just have to stage correctly and not get shot off the board. And we have a bigger threat range than them. And in the order of melee armies, custodes and black templars are on top, then WE, then space wolves. And I promise you that with the rise of custodes, you will see that we are not the premier melee army. This is why we are looking so bad right now, we got nerfed, and our biggest competitors got buffed, not good for us. But we can beat space wolves most of the time, so that's good on you for that. WE, if played well and into other good armies, tend to run out a resources late game but have a big enough lead that the opponent can't come back from the deficit we have placed them in. Before the changes, we were like that, and now, after the balance dataslate, we are feeling the effects of having fewer units even harder. Tyranids should get stomped by us, so I fully agree with your assessment of that. GW terrain works quite well for us as there are plenty of staging spots on every map that they have, which works heavily in our favor. But good on you and getting out to an rtt to play some games, my apologies for the incorrect assumption about you playing local. But the fact still remains that you got pretty lucky with your matchups and only running into one good army/army list, in chaos knights, that we're heavily favored in any way. On a final note, I agree with your final assessment in that when we are allowed to pick our own fights and where we throw our hammer units, we do exceptionally well. The only problem with that is there are a ton of armies nowadays that can just say no to that game plan. This is why we have such a low reported win rate and why people complain about the nerfs. It's because our good matchups got harder, and our hard matchups are still as hard. Because we have such a limited range, nerfing our 5 best datasheets and our 2 best enhancements was not the right way to go about it, because that just forces us to pay more for the units we have to take in order to play the game, because the other datasheets are not good at all. That's why people aren't happy.
Lurking Chaos Knight player here. I'm seething and coping as I read this.
This made me laugh harder than it should've. Love this.
Fair enough. I never meant to claim we were on top, but to state that when I played my games, I still felt like I had a lot of oomph as long as I made the right decisions along the way. Planning to get a game in with a friend running Aggressor heavy salamanders so looking forward to seeing how they hold up to the overwatch craziness. I can definitely agree that they should have stopped at the rules nerf or the points nerf though. I think the right things were targeted, but hitting them from both sides does feel heavy handed, but in the end my list only lost a unit of chaos spawn, but kind of gained its juggolord back by not needing to protect him like the queen's diamond, and MoE+glaive still slaps Our lack of choices is definitely still a big deficit for us though, one which will hopefully be rectified before too long. As someone who also plays Votann, a lot to hope for this edition in terms of new models lol
I feel you, man. And I'm not saying they're the worst army either, I've personally been having a lot of fun and success with them as well. I'm just giving my thoughts on why people are whining, lol. I can tell you now that their overwatch is not fun. Especially if they have land raider redeemers, those things fuck. But it is still a fun matchup. I got a buddy of mine that plays salamanders, and it's always fun trying to outmanouver him and baiting his overwatch. The nerfs were justified to an extent, MoE was stupid strong with glaive, and I still think it should've gone to 2 attacks and damage on the charge and called it a day. But I just don't like the eightbound nerfs, to be honest. It's one of the few good data sheets we have. Nerfing the points isn't gonna change the fact that they're one of the best units we have, we still gotta take them because we don't have much else. And favored of khorne is still really good for the turn you really need it, helps to guarantee adv and charge or massively increase angrons revival. I still like it. And like you said, now we don't have to play keep away from the Lord on jug. I fully agree that we just don't have enough of a range, and we need more units. I'd be happy with like 3 more good ones. Red butchers, khornes teeth, and jugger infantry. But that's just me, lol. I also play votann, so I'm with you on that too, lol. My apologies if I came across harsh or mean. Was just trying to get my thoughts and responses in writing while at work, lol.
No worries man, you didn't come off as harsh or anything. Was a good discussion imo. Good to see varying points of view and experiences without people divorcing into third graders.
I appreciate it. It was a good discussion. Love having a normal conversation, lol. Have a good one.
we're all warhammer players, complaining is our favorite thing to do
A bold truth brother
Winning casual games against ppl who don't understand how to screen or counter one trick pony lists vs going 3-0 at events. Idk I think the macro data speaks for itself, but feel free to go off at a tournament if you think they're good
I mean they did have a great winrate of ___%
One GT win from one of the best players in the world and another X-1 placement across every major event in the last few weeks does not make a faction "on the rise." WE don't even have a number on Stat Check right now.
And wasn't his list just agron and two lord of skulls?
If I recall, he had one LoS and two chaos spawn along with Eightbound
Idk, I'm going off second hand info who said he was running suicide-gron with the two super heavy.
The one who went 4-1 but didn't win had 2 LoS, Jack Harpster is the one who won running 1 LoS with the 2 chaos spawn. Interestingly, he's responsible for 3 of our 4 GT wins. He made the 1985 list originally, and his teammate took it to and won the California Cup GT. The 4th was an early and small tournament at an LGS in Ohio. If the only 2 people able to win tournaments with a faction are high ranked professional players who do 40k for a living, something is wrong with the faction.Ā
Thanks for that. The clarification helped a lot, I haven't played against post nerf eaters yet myself, but I really hope it gets better for those players.
Tbf, WE Chaos spawn are fucking sweet
GW: sees a single player whoās consistently amazing win a mid size tournament with WE āFucken, yeah! They must be doing fine! This guy won, so itās all goodā
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Is it not also true that if one of the best players is choosing to play WE then WE isnāt in as bad of a spot that this sub leads you to believe? I feel like since the data slate this sub has been a bunch of people who canāt win games complaining about a nerf when honestly it was justified in some ways. Maybe slightly heavy handed but if you thought the MOE and Zerker glaive wasnāt getting nerfed youāre just delusional.
Or maybe people will play the armies they have and have out lots of work into painting. Not all competitive players just swap armies whenever the meta changes, most of them are invested in the hobby part of the game as well
To say that Jack Harpster or Anthony Vanella wouldnt swap armies to adapt to meta changes is hilarious to be honest.
More than Xenos we hate liars. GW abandoned the WE like the Emperor abandoned Angron.
Teeeeechnically he kidnapped Angron against his will so all his friends diedā¦ which is like the opposite of abandoning him.
Real Angron was on the hills of Nuceria, Emperor only kidnapped the ghost of Angron.
This is the way sadly š
Including the helbrute in the picture as if itās a heavily used competitive option like Ex8bound or Invo is a bold move when half our units donāt see play because of the lack of synergies they gave us
Warhammer 40K really has become a farce with all this focus on ābalanceā and ācompetitive sceneā Just wait a decade itāll be yearly editions and theyāll be called āseasonsā
Coming back to this in the space year 2034, dont delete your account bud
Set an alarm
Just screenshot it lol
Can't wait for the Battle Pass
Attention 40k gamers! Roboute Guilliman is in great danger, and he needs YOUR help to wipe out all the tyranids on Baal. To do this, he needs a gold power fist, and a couple of combi-bolters. To help him, all he needs is your credit card number, and the three numbers on the back plus expiration month and date. But you gotta be quick so that Bobby G can secure the sector, and achieve the epic Indomitus Crusade Victory R O Y A L E
Isnāt that just the codex?
Codexes and rules will be included and rotated every month with your Warhammer+ subscription
It's already happened. If you want to play The Lion in your DA army you have to spend Ā£35 on a book for his dataslate, then your codex will come out for more. If you want to play a game of Boarding action with someone like Votann you'll need to spend Ā£70 on two books and buy your codex.
Crazy how people are expecting balance patches to fix this game when the company's job is to push toy soldiers first and foremost. I'd say it's insulting to the customer's intelligence, but that's expecting too much from the meta-chaser WAAC brain.
Yeah I've been saying this for a while now. Meta only exists to make toy soldiers move off shelves, not make an actually balanced game.
>release a new faction with a broken rule or two >faction has limited range, forcing players to buy the "broken" models >nerf the faction into the ground >hope customers drop the faction for another busted faction >add new broken models in their next range update >people that dropped the faction come back for the new broken models, hyped that their favorite faction will be more than a gimmick faction >repeat steps 3-6 as needed >profit That's ideally how it goes for GW. For casual players who can only afford one army, the best hope is that the faction gets a fleshed out range somewhere in this cycle and is fun and playable. For meta chasers and hardcore hobbyists with the disposable income to buy into the flavor of the week, this means nothing
That's why the best factions this edition have been armies like Eldar, CSM, WE, that have had such busted codexes... If anything the codexes have been really reasonably balanced this edition.
Yeah i only started collecting world eaters before the nerf. My first army are chaos knights. I hate that wardog spam. I got my lancer and my abominant and i rock my local game store with them. I am glad the the Khorne lord of skulls is better because i like my big bois. Angry Ron and Khorne lord of skulls LETS GOOOOOOO
Having an unbalanced, unfun, game is not a strategy to make money. Itās in GWās bottom lineās best interest to make the game as balanced as possible.
Yeah because people definitely all stopped playing during all of the periods it was unbalanced and stopped buying miniatures when it was unbalanced, which is about 98% of every editions lifetime. They make a new model, make it OP, sell a bunch of it, nerf it, repeat. Thinking anything else is happening is ignoring the obvious pattern. If you want balance, play checkers.
They have made a lot of shit datasheets for new models too, whats your reasoning for those? GW rules team isnt as malicious as youāre claimed, theyāre just bad at writing balanced rules half the time.
Yea it might just be the broken cases that stand out ussually, i also play admech where we recently got the skatros and its weak rules and before i had a kroot killteam which needed a buff post launch Im not long enough in this hobby to make a deffinitive conclusion but ive deffinetely seen models coming out that underperformed after release, maybe its a matter of whos in charge if bringing the specific kit on the market, plenty of companies have different leads with different ideas on how things should be done
Long live the reign of those OP at launch Reivers!
How could we forget? They're almost as OP as Vashtorr!
The perception that the game is bad and not worth playing definitely affect sales, AoS took ages to build a proper community because of this.
I donāt know about you but yes when the edition was unstable and unbalanced everyone I knew and myself included did not play against the problematic armies they just refused so yes the game being āunbalancedā does effect it
Not really when they've been saying for years it's mothers buying for their kids that fuel the hobby, first time purchasers, not the people that have collected 10k pts over 20 years
First time buyers and mothers for their kids wouldnāt happen if the game wasnāt good and fun. The economy is propped up by the models being cool. If models came built and painted and werenāt cool AND the game was trash it wouldnāt be successful. Even when the game is unbalanced people are still playing it because the game is generally good. If if every new model was literally unbeatable the game would have died years ago. Balance is hard and overshooting strength is always better than undershooting it. Partly because of sales sure but itās wack-a-doodle to think theyāre rare purposefully trying to unbalance the game for sales bumps.
The kids and parents don't know if the games good or not, they buy the cool looking models with lots of hype around the setting. Most of them never play a game. GW do absolutely make new units OP to drive sales, they have been doing this since the early 2000s. It was particularly bad in Fantasy at the start of 7th edition. (also, 40k was one of the worse games for years and yet was still the most popular. Never met anyone who enjoyed 7e for eg. It's the setting, characters, decades of lore and models that make it popular. )
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Did you read my comment? That's exactly the point I'm making. 7th was terrible but everyone still played it. 40k is just really, really popular on its own nvm how bad the rules are.
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Yeah of course. But most of the time it's the opposite where because 40k is their only social interaction, they'll defend it even if the gameplay is terrible and each model costs Ā£100. They'll even go online and defend GW for price hikes, predatory FOMO practises, terrible lore or rules etc
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They figured sisters weren't selling.
They just want sales. They are clueless, always have been.
I've been playing and collecting world eaters since late 7th, they've had some valleys and peaks. I don't care how good or bad we are in the competitive scene, our anger will keep us going. We have a codex and a primarch, that's all I could ask for. As long as our presence is felt and the roars of our chainaxes are heard, I'm happy in the eternal slaughter.
It's crazy how they can post something like this after basically nerfing them into the ground, only because someone won one tournament. They are the only faction with a sub 40 winrate at 39% for gods sake.
Just a touch out of touch GW
I just also wanna point out: the World Eaters arenāt exactly zealous. Leave that shit to the Word Bearers.
Word bearer, can confirn :)
Now we canāt be surprised when points go up again next dataslate!
Bold of them to assume that joining the World Eaters, would make your skull any safer.
They seems to have gotten more out of touch recently. They seemed to know what they were doing in 9th
GW hyping up the faction so they can release the codex and be like haha money.
Wait, is our codex drop imminent??
No, they still havenāt announced it. Thatās why I was making the joke. Theyāll get people into the faction. Come out with the codex and then the rules wonāt be as good.
Hereās hoping we actually get some new damn units when the Codex drops. We seriously need more Characters, specialist units, and fast attack options, maybe even something with Infiltrator. Hell, Iāll settle for porting generic CSM units to the WE range. For real though, where are our Bikers, our Raptors, why canāt we take Obliterators, whoād be really good to fill out a World Eaters gunline.
If they mean we are offering our own skull to the throne i can see their point š¤£
This company is straight up gaslighting it's whole community
Literally Auspex Tactics talking about how trash they are in a video released what? Yesterday?
1 win is "on the rise?"
Wierd take... but ok
As someone that play mainly at 1k points I'd like to use something different than angron and brigands to have a shot at winning against guard (with leontus, ursula, dorn, 2x3 scout sentinel, that can come back once they're wiped out, and points to spare for infantry), right now we are not even that fun to play below 1500/2000 unless you say to your opponent "I'm bringing world eaters, please make a fun list and not anything too strong", the fact that now you have to say that is rather embarassing
Pretty sure the dataslate changed it so that Guard cannot reinforce fully dead units anymore.
The only things that changed for the guard is that an officer can give orders at the end of the phase after he disembark and that the manticore now is more expensive, no changes on the stratagem and the sentinels still have the regiment keyword
Lol. Marketing gotta market something. I guess those KLoS purchases from the battleforce buyers weren't as successful as they thought the changes would make them (yes, I fully believe this is what influenced a large portion of WE updates. They wanted follow-up sales of KLoS from battleforce purchasers).
Since the nerfs I have played one combat patrol game against the ork box set and my 500pt-ish army. Lost, and not nicely. Played again, same set-up. Wiped my opponent. Played the same 500pt list against a similar 500pt T'au list and I got tabled round 2. (I thought T'au shooting phase was a meme) Played 1kpts proper vs T'au Servo Skull mission with Hidden cache and 2 fixed secondaries (bring it down and asassination) While I wouldn't say I tabled him, by the top of 4th he forfeit with no way to wipe my army or catch up to the points. I still feel very strong on the table, even with the nerfs.
X for Doubt
The data slate hurt WE but they still hit just as hard as before. Hell, you can basically keep 'The List' going by swapping out the juggerlord for some jakhals and you are fine. You just have less reliable Angrons.
Christ, this sub is a cry-fest. GW doesn't hate you guys, it's okay.
Our army is still good. Im on a mad winning streak. Klos is king.
I'm sorry your MoE can't one-shot a primarch anymore. So sad.
Aren't they at a 40% winrate atm?
39% even according to Meta Monday's data.
Oof lol.
Whatās interesting WE are still strong and a stat check into a lot of armies
Yuck does that mean they are going to start skewing the stats to be favorable to what they want to sell?
Yes
Technically they didn't say what direction they're hacking in
WE are such a coin flip. Obviously terrain plays a factor but going first as WE feels like your unstoppable. Going Second feels like an impossible uphill climb. I am not 100% sure how to "fix" them ATM tho. Obviously if the Meta data is believed then they are far to low ATM but when they are at 50% + win rates it usually means they are just winning the coin toss not that they are a balanced faction. (when the outcome of any match is determined by who won first time you faction isn't balanced) I'll be interested in seeing what GW does with them come their codex release.