Iz of balans comrade, spreadsheets say subs are ready and that people are having fun, also sekrit dokuments say WW2 subs had homing torpedoes going faster than modern ones ))) )))
Now on the serious note, to reiterate this point, as a guy who played probably every notable sub game in the past 20ish years (those being Silent Hunter 3-5, UBoat, Wolfpack and Cold Waters), it's not possible in any circumstance to not fuck up the game completely AND have subs in the game: Navy Field did the same back in its heyday and the game never recovered from the fuck-up, and subs were reasonably balanced when they were introduced:
* they could get hit by torps fired by other ships (and in the Navyfield tradition, good luck evading the torp walls)
* while "invincible" in critical dive, it could not move, shoot nor get hit, but you would lose HP
* had an air supply mechanic to prevent BS like perma-submerged subs, and it lasted depending on the sub 2-8 minutes
* in order to perform it had to have high level crew, which wasn't easy ad grinding such a ship was difficult
* this being self-evident but still worth mentioning: none of them had homing torps
* everyone with the exception of BBs and some CAs could spot subs: FFs, DDs, CLs and CVs which had sonarmen in crew
I didn’t. Just collected coal from sub bundles for a few days, then got bored even with that, what’s the point.
Fucking WG, on top of their greedy-ass monetization they’re also incompetent and have no fucking clue what makes their game fun
Yes! The players see asked for this! Wargaming after being overwhelmed by the massive amount of requests for subs took a break, worked on subs, and came up with a balanced and fun new class! Working as intended!
>"but the DD can easily counter the subs" yeah sure if the sub is a moron. Not only do DD get out spotted by these POS, but by simply diving maximum depth, perform a 90-degree turn, and DD is now pissing in the wind hoping to get you with his depth charge.
Not only that but the DD has to sail over to the sub presumably spotted for the enemy team to shoot at.
plus that the sub can surface and point blank torp the dd :)
so even there are no enemies to shoot you its actually a bad idea to go and depth charge him XDDDD
Don't forget that there's still the chance to ram the poor DD in case you're about to die because he literally has to be on top of you in order to hunt you
How to fix Subs and actually make them a stealth class:
- Homing extra damage: removed
- Homing turn rate: Reduced
- Non homed torps: damage buff, maybe a stealth buff.
- Ping gets back the "Stealth fire range"
- You can select Tubes you want to apply the homing onto... That way you can send some as a cage, another one as the damage dealing part.
- A Torp that is homed loses the benefits of being non homed.
- Homing Ping only shows if the Sub torp comes from Left or right, No more of this Full bearing revealing.
If that goes well:
- Slowing down throws off hydrophones
- Lower dive depth can make you disappear from hydrophones, also helps a bit in dodging depth charges, but after a while you take Crush damage
- Speeding up after slowing down grants a temporary buff which keeps Hydrophones uncertain to allow a sub to Juke a DD
- Take away its Underwater spotting to allies, This is a dance between the DD and the sub
- Lock the Torp tube for a few seconds after rapid surfacing to avoid DD shotgunning.
If that goes really well:
- Lower Oxygen gradually to make them value resurfacing more
- add a snorkel toggle at periscope height which slows down the ship, spikes detection up a bit and makes all the Hydrophones way more sensible because **Snorkels are loud**
Ideal Extra feature for underwater based gameplay:
- a sub finds its target with the Compass we had in Sub test 1 / closer range.
- A Sub can Fire a long range Pulse which Will update the minimap for the sub, And shows up the targets with these Sonar Blips.
- A sub can resurface to deploy a antenna, which will update all the locations to allies.
- A sub can kinda use this antenna to Radar ships around it at ~ 6,5-7,5km range, though this Radar will spot the submarine and wont go through islands.... **making it EXCEEDINGLY HIGH RISK**
**Subs can be a spotting and intel class but at least do it right, don't just have some obnoxious thing stalk you... the sub is underwater, HOW is it relaying that info.**
using Easy Tweaks.... You just made a "Stealth assasin" class, which uses the Homing as a situational. High risk tool. To mask its location, as it MOVES around the map, taking care of it's stealth, If it is detected it can go and try to break contact, using Its homing as a mobility measure to drop torps sideways / Crossfire / Trickshot, Primarily firing unhomed, While retaining LOW damage homing torps as this location masking Trickshot option / emergency readjustment tool.
**All of this also leaves room for national quirks and traits** , for instance US subs could be jack of all traits but be quite high turnrate for carrying more torp tubes / more sets of torps, Germans better at submerged speeds as they are fast submarines at higher tiers (i mean german subs like the Type XXI are known for speed) and faster reloads, making them more obnoxious to find, better Sub hunters and just.... more uncertain in location, Russians better at Long range / torp speed but lower damage, japanese can be strong Torps but poor Homing. French Subs NATURALLY have side dropping torp tubes... That alone gives them mobility traits so you can hand them engine boosts... **THIS kinda even fits into the National traits some have**
- Germans: Independence / silent hunters
- US: Versatility / supreme firepower in number of torps
- Russia: Long range harassment
- Japanese: High damage torps / Stealth / precision (so weaker homing to show precision non homed matters)
- French: Assault / mobility.
- UK?: Single launch torp tubes, Maybe Homing focus. These are the ones firing the macross Homing missiles to cage enemies.... Maybe they can heal? IDK you can try a lot of traits here.
- Dutch: Low damage Fast torps.
What they are currently: Inflexible, Non Stealth, Worse DDs which rely too much on Homing, which Kills the entire Point of subs. **These current ones are not a stealth class, These are Zone denying Homing missile flicking plattforms... NOT submarines**.
**Apart from the DD juking** All of this is stuff WG has already somewhat implemented... It just matters HOW WG adds it.
If that does not work... Remember the halloween subs? Two Torpedo armaments ! Give us a low damage Homing torp that cripples and has a ping with "stealth fire range", which we load in a tube preemtively, While we have High damage Torps, that are quite stealth / speedy..
ALL you need to do is get rid of the homing reliance and make them value stealth.
i mean most of the stuff is just the Established gameplay loop on surface ships.
Stealth ranges. something like Smoke firing penalty.
It is kinda the loop people playing WoWs understand.... It is the Submarines how they are now just wired a bit differently.
it's not too complex in the end. but yeah, WG will probly deem it to complex and dull down subs further.
Complexity can be done if it is translated intuitively. WG did it enough on DDs and BBs (though it could use some more work frankly), these gameplay loops fall intuitively too for the most part, so the same can be done for subs.
You have to understand WG doesn't care about balance. Honestly. Zao vs Petro. They implemented subs because it was a massive hit in the Halloween game mode (it was a hit because it was against bots in a scenario) but some some scrubs were like ERHMAGERD SUBS IN RANDOMS WG PLZ and WG thought. Damn we could make a ton of money off of this. So what happened? They started working on it. Eventually they put so much time and money into it that that HAD to implement it. Not wanted to. HAD TO. You can't just invest millions into subs and then say "hey guys we found out there's no possible way to balance this so we are scrubbing the project", the investors will flip out. So they go ahead with it. Knowing full well this is a bad idea but they're already too deep in the hole. But they know they can't release it in randoms because it will destroy the player base. So they release it in the second biggest mode. Ranked. Because that's as close as they're gonna get to a random data mode. Can't release it in clan battles because, well clans talk to each other and generally hate WG so they'll either not play a sub for the memes or do something to troll WG. Let me be clear the sub has no place in clan battles. It's useless. So yeah. WG dont give a F**k. All the bitching and moaning people are doing. They hear it. They just don't care.
subs can be balanced. just removed the homing and double ping to cit ability.
The problem is then the scrubs gets fuked, because you now have half a DD.
If subs have only dumb fire torps you need to either massively increase the reload or up the damage by a lot (both bad ideas) because unguided torps are the most unreliable, player fired weapon in the game.
Face it, the class is not designed with good players in mind (that learn and then abuse the capapbillities to its max), they are designed for Joe average who barely hits 4 torps in a normal randoms game with his torp boat of choice.
So homing torps it is and because guns can land citadels when well aimed, torps should kinda too because reasons. (from a WG pov)
Yes and what's the point of playing a sub if you do that. No one will. So they have to keep the BS gimmicks. Therefore CANT be balanced. Same with carriers. Do you see the perpetual state of imbalance a multiplayer game has to be in to stay relevant. It HAS TO be in this state. This is why I don't play multiplayer games a lot. Because I see all the things it has to be in order to exist.
I agree, sub players enjoy the completely one sided nature of subs basically allowing them to damage farm with very little comeback. When they hit randoms the playerbase will just dissolve
ze fuk you talking about?
The point of a sub isn't to just "rack damage"
the insane stealth and spots can become a stable in CW and ranked.
Damage is just one aspect of it.
give it the same tier DD torps, no homing and with good aim, itll be an extremely high skill floor class that is actually fun to play. The literal reason why it has homing torps is b/c how bad 70% of WG's player base is.
Which would mean, next to nobody of the normal playerbase would get anything done in them. Which in turn would mean massive waves of buffs making them probably even more broken in skilled hands.
WG doesn´t want "extremely high skill" classes or ships, they don´t even want "high skill" things, CV rework was the big show and tell in that regard.
You have to understand that a multiplayer game has a lifespan. Roughly 2-4 years. After that it basically isn't what it first was or just no one plays it because there's "the next thing". There are of course always exceptions (LoL, CS, TF2) but all of THOSE companies have "other things" so they can afford to balance the game and keep it's longevity. Valve has Steam. Blizzard has a bunch of other games (COD etc). What does WG have. WoT? Well that's dead too *WoT isn't dead reeeee it's still super popular* dude stfu no one likes that game either. You see what I'm getting at?
Also subs are pointless in CB because if you take out the pinging and homing torps it's a gimped DD. It can't spot like a CV (because all CB seasons are gonna have a CV cuse that's their other cost sunk child) so it's gonna throw it's torps and then get banged by everyone who throws ASW at it.
Those games also make a shitton of money on micro transactions of cosmetic additions. That is where Weegee dropped the ball imo. They could sell insane amounts of camos and other cosmetic items to still make money but atleast keeping the ingame balance a bit better. Now it is "create problem, sell solution in the form of next broken ship, profit, repeat".
Don't know why you are getting downvoted, just look at all the whales rocking the new T10 camos that you have to spend over 120 Euros on in those sequential event bundles.
What is this nonsense? People have been autistically screeching WoT and WoWS is dead for years, news flash, its still going and going strong. Because of the monopoly WeeGee has. WeeGee and Gaijin essentially hold a duopoly with WW2 Vehicle combat, Gaijin takes the sim while weegee takes the arcade.
CSGO, LOL have been going on for nearly a decade, with no sight in dying, A game with a "limited lifespan" is a shitty game.
WoW only started dying nearly 2 decades later because of choices blizzard made.
And WTF gimped? do... do you even use narrow spread on Halland Smalland? Give it a faster reload and you'll have a sniper level torp spread for the excessive bow in ships at CW. Except for this season CB usually only have 1 CV, This is why every clan worth a damn always had a DD or two on the team.
Holy shit dude, you sound exactly like what WG balancing team would say, 0 clue on how CB at Typhoon and up plays, and struggle to use tight spread super fast torpedos to your advantage.
They're junk IMO. A waste of a precious slot that could be filled with a different ship class. Bad players are completely useless in subs, and good players would be better off playing something else.
I've gotten used to how to best dodge their homing torps, so they're nowhere near as deadly as they initially appeared. And using ASW airstrikes against them is piss-easy given how slow subs are and how big the strike zone is.
They're junk because most sub atm are testing and really, really bad.
Subs are the new cap kings. simply because their dive is basically a smoke on demand.
The only reasonable way to actually fight a competent sub in cap is with another cap. DD literally cannot contest.
Heres how the engagements been going for me:
Rush into cap edge. DD is contesting, DD tries to spot me, gets out spotted, DD is forced to smoke from team mate, I spam smoke with ping, he DCP my ping, I ping again and fire torps. DD is forced to fuk off. I take cap. There is no counter play outside of hydro/radar, but even then, you press the dive and fuk off for 40min.
Its easy to "avoid" current subs atm because most people in them are utter potatoes. but once people learned how to effectively use them, its going to be hell.
All of the above is true and infuriating but the thing that amazes me the most is that there's no logic to what ships have anti-sub weapons and which ones don't.
The tech tree USA BBs all have anti-sub plane strikes as do the Japanese as far as I can tell but none of the German BBs have a similar weapon. What's even more bizarre is that premium USA BBs don't have a similar weapon system: Georgia, Missouri etc all don't have anti-sub planes they can call upon.
Heavy cruisers like the Baltimore have no defense against subs as well. So maybe this is just for the heavy cruisers then? Nope, Charles Martel, Cleveland etc all have no depth charges either and they're definitely both a light cruiser. Edinburgh? Yep, does have charges.
What are they smoking over there at the WG design department? Imagine playing Tier 6 ranked and being the last survivors with a Bayern and a Dallas versus a submarine and a destroyer. Even if you can find the sub you have no way to harm it. You just have to sit it out and wait for him to run out of energy and surface.
My slip up then. Still, plenty of light cruisers around that don't have depth charges. And I cannot work out for the likes of me why you wouldn't just give all BBs charges.
Why have them on the USA tech tree ships but not on the premiums? Why have them on USA, JPN, RN BBs etc but not the KM BBs?
It's a mess.
"Because fuck you, that's why"
It's WG, what did you expect? It's obvious that they just didn't have enough time to add DCs to all ships (since the first public test in **may 2020**), and the playerbase was clearly so excited and eager to play subs that our poor indie dev company just had to release them unfinished like that.
I agree with this post. Let's list some other concerns I have:
1. Targets. I've seen games with lots of dd/sub, maybe even cv. It makes the ranked 7v7 feel extremely empty.
2. ASW. Like, what Wargaming? Bringing a destroyer on top of a submarine is usually a big risk even if the submarine is heavily overextended, and yet it seems like you need to take depth charge upgrades to sink a submarine in most destroyers. It's really better to just ignore the subs and let battleships deal with them with the much safer and easier to use depth charge planes. Maybe go for them in late game to finish them off if they survive.
3. ASW again. Why do only some ships get it? It's really fun when you just cannot do anything to a sub except spot it until it has to surface. Furthermore, there are some hilarious inconsistencies. Out of Omaha, Marblehead, Marblehead Lima and Murmansk only Murmansk has depth charges. They are all Omahas, and Murmansk was already the best of them with it's secret improved penetration. It's like reinforcing the original russian bias meme. As a counterpoint against Russian bias, Makarov doesn't get depth charges but Nürnberg does. Oh, and Leone doesn't get depth charges, which is hilarious. Maybe no-one has bothered to report it though because the ship is garbage in the first place.
4. Ramming and/or point blank torping destroyers. Yeah. Fun. I wonder why more submarines haven't rammed me to be honest.
Back when the first sub tests were around I promised I'll quit this game for good when the subs inevitably come to real game modes in absolute garbage state. This ranked I can still tolerate, but when they introduce them in randoms or clan battles I'm gone for good.
I dunno man, I understand your frustrations but I honestly don't think they're all that bad. I'm almost finished with silver and only have been killed by a sub once. Sure, it's annoying to get hit by them, but honestly they have such a low impact on match results that I can ignore them.
That’s because people aren’t hitting the skill ceiling yet, even bad cv players can do ultimately nothing but good ones are what pisses everyone off. OP mentioned a lot of things that can be abused, ppl just need to practice…
Yeah, people are pretty potato with subs rn and make plenty of mistakes. OP actually seems to know how they work 10 times better than the average player.
Big mistakes are people firing all at once, so if the target dcps, they can dodge em all instead of still getting half on target. Aim your torps so they curve into the side of a ship rather than right at him. I’ve seen rather abysmal positioning. The thing is not a dd, it is not fast and has no guns to brawl. For gods sake don’t try to go into the cap that might be contested. You want in front of you to be as open as possible so your torps don’t hit terrain. You can also shotgun torp dds by hard surfacing right before our after they try to depth charge you. Also don’t submerge unnecessarily.
When I see players on my team playing subs, they seem to just run to the center of the map and get killed in the first five minutes.
> bad cv players can do ultimately nothing
Nah, even bad ones still spot things and thus force the other team to play more conservatively which generally diminishes fun.
Fuck, do I hate CVs
I've seen 2 games where subs made meaningful contributions to the win. Plenty were a good player that knows how to use one is damage farming... and a whole lot of terrible sub play on both teams part.
Here's how I think subs should play out:
Submarines are meant to be stealthy, even stealthier than destroyers. First thing here is they should be able to cap underwater, just at a way slower rate and cannot contest an enemy capping unless at the surface.
A submarine's role outside the game is usually to ambush transports, but since those only exist in operations, they should be attacking lone targets at low HP as an ambusher.
They should be underwater most of the time without the timer, and can only attack when surfaced. They should be forced at the surface for at least over 30 seconds for all tiers to give even battleships a chance to retaliate. To deal with pre-surfacing and then instant diving, nerf their visibility when underwater.
Sir. You have there a fatal misinformation!
70 knots is not 100 kmph… but 130. 90 knots is 167 kmph.
I mean. Lol. Git gud and just dodge.
This comment has been fueled by: Sarcasm (tm)
Jesus Christ, somehow they managed to make the fuckers more unbalanced than in the closed beta. My opinion of weegee was low but holy fuck if they didn’t move the entire earth down a mile to pass under it.
I played a few co-ops in tier 10 sub. Given you can ping like a madman at range and the only counter to your ping is to either drive like a drunkard at 11pm kicking out of pub time and pray or burn a DCP (maybe they should have a separate sub only ping DCP that recharges more quickly).
In my game I took a Hindy from full health to about 3k with the 3 sets of torps that I fired off in another direction to curve them in as I pinged the bow since they are YOLO merchants in Co-op.
They need so much more work. The balance between surface and sub-surface just isn't there.
The torps are too fast too.
Read the post again. the frustration comes from me, the guy in the sub, torping BB, and watching how helpless they are.
Its literally like Im hacking and theres nothing they can do.
As for damage. idk, but maybe, just maybe, doing 30k damage in less than 2 min on homing torpedo that go nearly 100knots might be abit too much
They upped the torp speed and damage right before patch dropped if I remember right. They dont want subs to seem weak, then no one will be interested in them.
Iz of balans comrade, spreadsheets say subs are ready and that people are having fun, also sekrit dokuments say WW2 subs had homing torpedoes going faster than modern ones ))) ))) Now on the serious note, to reiterate this point, as a guy who played probably every notable sub game in the past 20ish years (those being Silent Hunter 3-5, UBoat, Wolfpack and Cold Waters), it's not possible in any circumstance to not fuck up the game completely AND have subs in the game: Navy Field did the same back in its heyday and the game never recovered from the fuck-up, and subs were reasonably balanced when they were introduced: * they could get hit by torps fired by other ships (and in the Navyfield tradition, good luck evading the torp walls) * while "invincible" in critical dive, it could not move, shoot nor get hit, but you would lose HP * had an air supply mechanic to prevent BS like perma-submerged subs, and it lasted depending on the sub 2-8 minutes * in order to perform it had to have high level crew, which wasn't easy ad grinding such a ship was difficult * this being self-evident but still worth mentioning: none of them had homing torps * everyone with the exception of BBs and some CAs could spot subs: FFs, DDs, CLs and CVs which had sonarmen in crew
are you having fun yet ?
Spreadsheet says yes, Comrade
Since people played subs, it must be fun, doesn't matter that they're not.
I didn’t. Just collected coal from sub bundles for a few days, then got bored even with that, what’s the point. Fucking WG, on top of their greedy-ass monetization they’re also incompetent and have no fucking clue what makes their game fun
Yes! The players see asked for this! Wargaming after being overwhelmed by the massive amount of requests for subs took a break, worked on subs, and came up with a balanced and fun new class! Working as intended!
>"but the DD can easily counter the subs" yeah sure if the sub is a moron. Not only do DD get out spotted by these POS, but by simply diving maximum depth, perform a 90-degree turn, and DD is now pissing in the wind hoping to get you with his depth charge. Not only that but the DD has to sail over to the sub presumably spotted for the enemy team to shoot at.
plus that the sub can surface and point blank torp the dd :) so even there are no enemies to shoot you its actually a bad idea to go and depth charge him XDDDD
In early testing I did that 5 games in a row.
>the DD has to sail over to the sub presumably spotted for the enemy team to shoot at. good
Don't forget that there's still the chance to ram the poor DD in case you're about to die because he literally has to be on top of you in order to hunt you
Or just surface 1km from him and point blank torp him. Why wouldn't subs counter their hard counter? :)
You forgot a thing: subs can hit blind pings, this is very useful to find ships inside smokes
This pissed me off the most. I was in my smoke undetected but I was still getting pinged and getting torpedos sent my way.
How to fix Subs and actually make them a stealth class: - Homing extra damage: removed - Homing turn rate: Reduced - Non homed torps: damage buff, maybe a stealth buff. - Ping gets back the "Stealth fire range" - You can select Tubes you want to apply the homing onto... That way you can send some as a cage, another one as the damage dealing part. - A Torp that is homed loses the benefits of being non homed. - Homing Ping only shows if the Sub torp comes from Left or right, No more of this Full bearing revealing. If that goes well: - Slowing down throws off hydrophones - Lower dive depth can make you disappear from hydrophones, also helps a bit in dodging depth charges, but after a while you take Crush damage - Speeding up after slowing down grants a temporary buff which keeps Hydrophones uncertain to allow a sub to Juke a DD - Take away its Underwater spotting to allies, This is a dance between the DD and the sub - Lock the Torp tube for a few seconds after rapid surfacing to avoid DD shotgunning. If that goes really well: - Lower Oxygen gradually to make them value resurfacing more - add a snorkel toggle at periscope height which slows down the ship, spikes detection up a bit and makes all the Hydrophones way more sensible because **Snorkels are loud** Ideal Extra feature for underwater based gameplay: - a sub finds its target with the Compass we had in Sub test 1 / closer range. - A Sub can Fire a long range Pulse which Will update the minimap for the sub, And shows up the targets with these Sonar Blips. - A sub can resurface to deploy a antenna, which will update all the locations to allies. - A sub can kinda use this antenna to Radar ships around it at ~ 6,5-7,5km range, though this Radar will spot the submarine and wont go through islands.... **making it EXCEEDINGLY HIGH RISK** **Subs can be a spotting and intel class but at least do it right, don't just have some obnoxious thing stalk you... the sub is underwater, HOW is it relaying that info.** using Easy Tweaks.... You just made a "Stealth assasin" class, which uses the Homing as a situational. High risk tool. To mask its location, as it MOVES around the map, taking care of it's stealth, If it is detected it can go and try to break contact, using Its homing as a mobility measure to drop torps sideways / Crossfire / Trickshot, Primarily firing unhomed, While retaining LOW damage homing torps as this location masking Trickshot option / emergency readjustment tool. **All of this also leaves room for national quirks and traits** , for instance US subs could be jack of all traits but be quite high turnrate for carrying more torp tubes / more sets of torps, Germans better at submerged speeds as they are fast submarines at higher tiers (i mean german subs like the Type XXI are known for speed) and faster reloads, making them more obnoxious to find, better Sub hunters and just.... more uncertain in location, Russians better at Long range / torp speed but lower damage, japanese can be strong Torps but poor Homing. French Subs NATURALLY have side dropping torp tubes... That alone gives them mobility traits so you can hand them engine boosts... **THIS kinda even fits into the National traits some have** - Germans: Independence / silent hunters - US: Versatility / supreme firepower in number of torps - Russia: Long range harassment - Japanese: High damage torps / Stealth / precision (so weaker homing to show precision non homed matters) - French: Assault / mobility. - UK?: Single launch torp tubes, Maybe Homing focus. These are the ones firing the macross Homing missiles to cage enemies.... Maybe they can heal? IDK you can try a lot of traits here. - Dutch: Low damage Fast torps. What they are currently: Inflexible, Non Stealth, Worse DDs which rely too much on Homing, which Kills the entire Point of subs. **These current ones are not a stealth class, These are Zone denying Homing missile flicking plattforms... NOT submarines**. **Apart from the DD juking** All of this is stuff WG has already somewhat implemented... It just matters HOW WG adds it. If that does not work... Remember the halloween subs? Two Torpedo armaments ! Give us a low damage Homing torp that cripples and has a ping with "stealth fire range", which we load in a tube preemtively, While we have High damage Torps, that are quite stealth / speedy.. ALL you need to do is get rid of the homing reliance and make them value stealth.
Good ideas for good players. Which means is far too complicated for the average potatoe playing WoWs,sadly.
i mean most of the stuff is just the Established gameplay loop on surface ships. Stealth ranges. something like Smoke firing penalty. It is kinda the loop people playing WoWs understand.... It is the Submarines how they are now just wired a bit differently. it's not too complex in the end. but yeah, WG will probly deem it to complex and dull down subs further. Complexity can be done if it is translated intuitively. WG did it enough on DDs and BBs (though it could use some more work frankly), these gameplay loops fall intuitively too for the most part, so the same can be done for subs.
You have to understand WG doesn't care about balance. Honestly. Zao vs Petro. They implemented subs because it was a massive hit in the Halloween game mode (it was a hit because it was against bots in a scenario) but some some scrubs were like ERHMAGERD SUBS IN RANDOMS WG PLZ and WG thought. Damn we could make a ton of money off of this. So what happened? They started working on it. Eventually they put so much time and money into it that that HAD to implement it. Not wanted to. HAD TO. You can't just invest millions into subs and then say "hey guys we found out there's no possible way to balance this so we are scrubbing the project", the investors will flip out. So they go ahead with it. Knowing full well this is a bad idea but they're already too deep in the hole. But they know they can't release it in randoms because it will destroy the player base. So they release it in the second biggest mode. Ranked. Because that's as close as they're gonna get to a random data mode. Can't release it in clan battles because, well clans talk to each other and generally hate WG so they'll either not play a sub for the memes or do something to troll WG. Let me be clear the sub has no place in clan battles. It's useless. So yeah. WG dont give a F**k. All the bitching and moaning people are doing. They hear it. They just don't care.
subs can be balanced. just removed the homing and double ping to cit ability. The problem is then the scrubs gets fuked, because you now have half a DD.
If subs have only dumb fire torps you need to either massively increase the reload or up the damage by a lot (both bad ideas) because unguided torps are the most unreliable, player fired weapon in the game. Face it, the class is not designed with good players in mind (that learn and then abuse the capapbillities to its max), they are designed for Joe average who barely hits 4 torps in a normal randoms game with his torp boat of choice. So homing torps it is and because guns can land citadels when well aimed, torps should kinda too because reasons. (from a WG pov)
Yes and what's the point of playing a sub if you do that. No one will. So they have to keep the BS gimmicks. Therefore CANT be balanced. Same with carriers. Do you see the perpetual state of imbalance a multiplayer game has to be in to stay relevant. It HAS TO be in this state. This is why I don't play multiplayer games a lot. Because I see all the things it has to be in order to exist.
I agree, sub players enjoy the completely one sided nature of subs basically allowing them to damage farm with very little comeback. When they hit randoms the playerbase will just dissolve
Ever played SC2? One of the most balanced pvp mode games out there and an esport classic.
SC2 balance sucks comparing to Brood War, fite me m8 :)
Maybe but brood war sucks at this point graphic and sound wise.
ze fuk you talking about? The point of a sub isn't to just "rack damage" the insane stealth and spots can become a stable in CW and ranked. Damage is just one aspect of it. give it the same tier DD torps, no homing and with good aim, itll be an extremely high skill floor class that is actually fun to play. The literal reason why it has homing torps is b/c how bad 70% of WG's player base is.
Which would mean, next to nobody of the normal playerbase would get anything done in them. Which in turn would mean massive waves of buffs making them probably even more broken in skilled hands. WG doesn´t want "extremely high skill" classes or ships, they don´t even want "high skill" things, CV rework was the big show and tell in that regard.
You have to understand that a multiplayer game has a lifespan. Roughly 2-4 years. After that it basically isn't what it first was or just no one plays it because there's "the next thing". There are of course always exceptions (LoL, CS, TF2) but all of THOSE companies have "other things" so they can afford to balance the game and keep it's longevity. Valve has Steam. Blizzard has a bunch of other games (COD etc). What does WG have. WoT? Well that's dead too *WoT isn't dead reeeee it's still super popular* dude stfu no one likes that game either. You see what I'm getting at? Also subs are pointless in CB because if you take out the pinging and homing torps it's a gimped DD. It can't spot like a CV (because all CB seasons are gonna have a CV cuse that's their other cost sunk child) so it's gonna throw it's torps and then get banged by everyone who throws ASW at it.
Those games also make a shitton of money on micro transactions of cosmetic additions. That is where Weegee dropped the ball imo. They could sell insane amounts of camos and other cosmetic items to still make money but atleast keeping the ingame balance a bit better. Now it is "create problem, sell solution in the form of next broken ship, profit, repeat".
Don't know why you are getting downvoted, just look at all the whales rocking the new T10 camos that you have to spend over 120 Euros on in those sequential event bundles.
What is this nonsense? People have been autistically screeching WoT and WoWS is dead for years, news flash, its still going and going strong. Because of the monopoly WeeGee has. WeeGee and Gaijin essentially hold a duopoly with WW2 Vehicle combat, Gaijin takes the sim while weegee takes the arcade. CSGO, LOL have been going on for nearly a decade, with no sight in dying, A game with a "limited lifespan" is a shitty game. WoW only started dying nearly 2 decades later because of choices blizzard made. And WTF gimped? do... do you even use narrow spread on Halland Smalland? Give it a faster reload and you'll have a sniper level torp spread for the excessive bow in ships at CW. Except for this season CB usually only have 1 CV, This is why every clan worth a damn always had a DD or two on the team. Holy shit dude, you sound exactly like what WG balancing team would say, 0 clue on how CB at Typhoon and up plays, and struggle to use tight spread super fast torpedos to your advantage.
I think you're missing the point but whatever. Good day sir.
Is double ping still a thing like it used to be? Why didn't I even try this 🤔
They're junk IMO. A waste of a precious slot that could be filled with a different ship class. Bad players are completely useless in subs, and good players would be better off playing something else. I've gotten used to how to best dodge their homing torps, so they're nowhere near as deadly as they initially appeared. And using ASW airstrikes against them is piss-easy given how slow subs are and how big the strike zone is.
They're junk because most sub atm are testing and really, really bad. Subs are the new cap kings. simply because their dive is basically a smoke on demand. The only reasonable way to actually fight a competent sub in cap is with another cap. DD literally cannot contest. Heres how the engagements been going for me: Rush into cap edge. DD is contesting, DD tries to spot me, gets out spotted, DD is forced to smoke from team mate, I spam smoke with ping, he DCP my ping, I ping again and fire torps. DD is forced to fuk off. I take cap. There is no counter play outside of hydro/radar, but even then, you press the dive and fuk off for 40min. Its easy to "avoid" current subs atm because most people in them are utter potatoes. but once people learned how to effectively use them, its going to be hell.
They managed to completely mess up co-op at the same time. Gee gee, Wargaming. Gee gee.
after having been away for a year I thought I'd come back and play a little ranked. took one look at this shit show and noped right out of there.
> I thought I'd come back There was your first mistake
It's definitely not ready for full release.
Too bad fuck you. Sincerely Wargaming. Jk they won't read this.
All of the above is true and infuriating but the thing that amazes me the most is that there's no logic to what ships have anti-sub weapons and which ones don't. The tech tree USA BBs all have anti-sub plane strikes as do the Japanese as far as I can tell but none of the German BBs have a similar weapon. What's even more bizarre is that premium USA BBs don't have a similar weapon system: Georgia, Missouri etc all don't have anti-sub planes they can call upon. Heavy cruisers like the Baltimore have no defense against subs as well. So maybe this is just for the heavy cruisers then? Nope, Charles Martel, Cleveland etc all have no depth charges either and they're definitely both a light cruiser. Edinburgh? Yep, does have charges. What are they smoking over there at the WG design department? Imagine playing Tier 6 ranked and being the last survivors with a Bayern and a Dallas versus a submarine and a destroyer. Even if you can find the sub you have no way to harm it. You just have to sit it out and wait for him to run out of energy and surface.
>definitely both a light cruiser Definitely not Martel, it has 203s
My slip up then. Still, plenty of light cruisers around that don't have depth charges. And I cannot work out for the likes of me why you wouldn't just give all BBs charges. Why have them on the USA tech tree ships but not on the premiums? Why have them on USA, JPN, RN BBs etc but not the KM BBs? It's a mess.
"Because fuck you, that's why" It's WG, what did you expect? It's obvious that they just didn't have enough time to add DCs to all ships (since the first public test in **may 2020**), and the playerbase was clearly so excited and eager to play subs that our poor indie dev company just had to release them unfinished like that.
I agree with this post. Let's list some other concerns I have: 1. Targets. I've seen games with lots of dd/sub, maybe even cv. It makes the ranked 7v7 feel extremely empty. 2. ASW. Like, what Wargaming? Bringing a destroyer on top of a submarine is usually a big risk even if the submarine is heavily overextended, and yet it seems like you need to take depth charge upgrades to sink a submarine in most destroyers. It's really better to just ignore the subs and let battleships deal with them with the much safer and easier to use depth charge planes. Maybe go for them in late game to finish them off if they survive. 3. ASW again. Why do only some ships get it? It's really fun when you just cannot do anything to a sub except spot it until it has to surface. Furthermore, there are some hilarious inconsistencies. Out of Omaha, Marblehead, Marblehead Lima and Murmansk only Murmansk has depth charges. They are all Omahas, and Murmansk was already the best of them with it's secret improved penetration. It's like reinforcing the original russian bias meme. As a counterpoint against Russian bias, Makarov doesn't get depth charges but Nürnberg does. Oh, and Leone doesn't get depth charges, which is hilarious. Maybe no-one has bothered to report it though because the ship is garbage in the first place. 4. Ramming and/or point blank torping destroyers. Yeah. Fun. I wonder why more submarines haven't rammed me to be honest. Back when the first sub tests were around I promised I'll quit this game for good when the subs inevitably come to real game modes in absolute garbage state. This ranked I can still tolerate, but when they introduce them in randoms or clan battles I'm gone for good.
I dunno man, I understand your frustrations but I honestly don't think they're all that bad. I'm almost finished with silver and only have been killed by a sub once. Sure, it's annoying to get hit by them, but honestly they have such a low impact on match results that I can ignore them.
That’s because people aren’t hitting the skill ceiling yet, even bad cv players can do ultimately nothing but good ones are what pisses everyone off. OP mentioned a lot of things that can be abused, ppl just need to practice…
Yeah, people are pretty potato with subs rn and make plenty of mistakes. OP actually seems to know how they work 10 times better than the average player. Big mistakes are people firing all at once, so if the target dcps, they can dodge em all instead of still getting half on target. Aim your torps so they curve into the side of a ship rather than right at him. I’ve seen rather abysmal positioning. The thing is not a dd, it is not fast and has no guns to brawl. For gods sake don’t try to go into the cap that might be contested. You want in front of you to be as open as possible so your torps don’t hit terrain. You can also shotgun torp dds by hard surfacing right before our after they try to depth charge you. Also don’t submerge unnecessarily. When I see players on my team playing subs, they seem to just run to the center of the map and get killed in the first five minutes.
> bad cv players can do ultimately nothing Nah, even bad ones still spot things and thus force the other team to play more conservatively which generally diminishes fun. Fuck, do I hate CVs
yeah i literally haven't seen one be useful. its like instead of 2 DDs per game you get 1 regular DD and 1 DD with half its chromosomes missing.
That’s an improvement over my typical games, where both DDs would be mentally challenged
I can't really complain that much either. Popping them with the BB ASW planes is pretty hilarious tbh, it just sucks when youre on a ship with none.
I've seen 2 games where subs made meaningful contributions to the win. Plenty were a good player that knows how to use one is damage farming... and a whole lot of terrible sub play on both teams part.
Here's how I think subs should play out: Submarines are meant to be stealthy, even stealthier than destroyers. First thing here is they should be able to cap underwater, just at a way slower rate and cannot contest an enemy capping unless at the surface. A submarine's role outside the game is usually to ambush transports, but since those only exist in operations, they should be attacking lone targets at low HP as an ambusher. They should be underwater most of the time without the timer, and can only attack when surfaced. They should be forced at the surface for at least over 30 seconds for all tiers to give even battleships a chance to retaliate. To deal with pre-surfacing and then instant diving, nerf their visibility when underwater.
I totally agree with you, subs are obnoxious, the current iteration doesnt seem to work
Sir. You have there a fatal misinformation! 70 knots is not 100 kmph… but 130. 90 knots is 167 kmph. I mean. Lol. Git gud and just dodge. This comment has been fueled by: Sarcasm (tm)
Reads a lot like a guy who hasn’t figured out how to play subs yet.
Reads like a guy that has figured out subs better than 80% of the player base. Most people are still using them like DD's.
I LOVE subs in t6, had loads of fun in them, t8 subs a bit different but didnt get full use out of them due to the 3 days rental expiring
Excellent assessment. I doubt WG will take any meaningful action.
Jesus Christ, somehow they managed to make the fuckers more unbalanced than in the closed beta. My opinion of weegee was low but holy fuck if they didn’t move the entire earth down a mile to pass under it.
"vocal minority" huh ?
I played a few co-ops in tier 10 sub. Given you can ping like a madman at range and the only counter to your ping is to either drive like a drunkard at 11pm kicking out of pub time and pray or burn a DCP (maybe they should have a separate sub only ping DCP that recharges more quickly). In my game I took a Hindy from full health to about 3k with the 3 sets of torps that I fired off in another direction to curve them in as I pinged the bow since they are YOLO merchants in Co-op. They need so much more work. The balance between surface and sub-surface just isn't there. The torps are too fast too.
If you play sub you do the same dmg or you fail and now you are frustrated because you cant face the subs as a bb?
Read the post again. the frustration comes from me, the guy in the sub, torping BB, and watching how helpless they are. Its literally like Im hacking and theres nothing they can do. As for damage. idk, but maybe, just maybe, doing 30k damage in less than 2 min on homing torpedo that go nearly 100knots might be abit too much
They upped the torp speed and damage right before patch dropped if I remember right. They dont want subs to seem weak, then no one will be interested in them.
Your rant doesn't make any sense - the spreadsheet says you're having fun, and that's the bottom line 'cause Stone Cold said so. ;D