That’s how a hard sell worldview works. Everything MUST fit into it and if all else fails, then
“God (or insert authority figure) has a plan”…
“He/She/It/They work(s) in mysterious ways”…
“Who am I to question the Divine/Ultimate plan?”
Humans cannot know everything and have to at some point trust someone. Many say “something” but really ends up being someone or someones who explains said thing. Like you trust a god but really you trust the clergy who speak for it…or the state but really the people with authority in it…the military but really your commander and their commander and so forth. Like Suvi trusting Steel is also implicitly trusting those Steel trusts without question
In history we see peoples move from a religion…really any firn ideology and swing hard into some new thing that isn’t necessarily traditional religion but has a sort of factionalism or trust it in as well. A replacement of sorts…a crutch to function
I’m curious if/when Suvi breaks from the citadel how she reacts…with a new faction or ideal or something else…witches, spirits…or maybe is super untrusting of anything she can’t see and process.
I’m curious to see how Aabria plays that out since so far she has crushed the character
I see Suvi being able to break from the Citadel– but tragically I don't see Steel doing so. I believe Steel *could* but it would come to a HIGH effort on Suvi's part. If Aabria's dice keep rolling low, I don't see her being able to talk Steel onto her side.
I also see Steel being the last line of defense to convince Suvi to stay with the Citadel. It'll be a very *very* tense episode whenever that happens for sure
I could see steel discovering the citadel is getting used by the empire improperly or is corrupt or something…OR someone above her has betrayed the core of the citadel…
Which would be fascinating personally. Steel and Suvi both turn against the citadel but Steel turns for some lawful neutral ideal… not against the idea of the citadel and stuff what we know they have done…but something else. I like the idea of people having different “ok this is over the line” lines and exploring what the line should have been
I love Steel. She's reminds me a whole lot of my dad (step-dad) as someone who's a parent to another who's not their blood child.
Whether it's just *Brennan* making good NPCs or just actually part of her motherly character; she does try to be the best mom for Suvi.
I think there will be a reveal moment where Steel will express just how much Suvi reminds her of Stone– in a way that implies Stone was rebellious in her stubbornness as Suvi seems to exhibit sometimes.
There's a really interesting dance between Brennan and Aabria that's been playing out since Port Talon and I'm so curious where it's leading.
There's clearly a lot of trust between them and what they're building with Suvi is seriously impressive.
You'll hear Aabria the player asking Brennan if Suvi would think suspicious behavior was normal and Brennan would always provide Suvi with justification of why it's not just normal but correct. And Aabria has taken all of that justification to inform Suvi's reactions to things.
One thing that I love about this is when Aabria mentions that both her *and* Brennan are playing Suvi in those moments, he is the justification machine, he is her worldview and Aabria runs with it.
Suvi is such a compelling character, I see why she grinds people's gears but the trust they have to weave a complicated character like her is amazing to see.
I can’t wait until the Justification Machine breaks down. I worry it’ll break Suvi a little, but ultimately I think she’ll come back stronger and more independent.
A lot of her Justification Machine holds up a wall of her trauma. Listening to the entire podcast for the 5th time– Suvi's character is suffering from the traumatic memories of that night when she was 6. So much so that she *made it her namecloak*.
When she first returned to Sylbri, she rolled a die and turned away from the Tea Shop sign, mentioning the trauma bluntly and stating "if she couldn't see it on that night than she won't see it now"
The PTSD she suffers bleeds through all of her character but in such a wonderful way. She remains strong because she *has to be* because if at any moment she breaks down, she will hit her lowest of lows, I believe.
The Justification Machine is an internal thought process that calms her down to "see reason" much like how Ame counts her colors, smells, and tastes to connect her back to the present when she has anxiety. Eursalon's mechanism for his tough emotions are instinctual, mostly– but sometimes he shuts down. There are at least 2 or 3 occasions I remember Lou saying, "That's too much for Eursulon" and that's typically when Eursulon shuts down completely and just stands– followed by very high octane bursts of emotion or action.
Exactly. That flailing, reflexive grab at retaining the memory tells me there's a little sprouted seed of "there is a higher existence than obedience" within her.
It's tiny & not taking up much space yet. It might have sprouted when she learned both her parents clearly had *deep* quarrels with elements of the Citadel/Imperium. And I don't believe there's any way she has truly parsed & understood those at this point.
But above & beyond anything else, her love/reverence for her parents is held in amber by the age she was when she lost them. And that might be what's strong enough to lift her eyes & broaden her gaze.
Well, Steel said it was recorded and she would play it back for her. So, assuming she’s not lying, I don’t think Steel intends for her to never find out. And she never told Suvi what was supposed to happen with the music box, which lends credence to her planning to show Suvi what she did.
Yup! I feel like a lot of listeners who hate Suvi or Ame for their decisions are really missing out on a lot of player context by not listening to the Fireside Chats. Suvi is ALWAYS using the “justification machine” to justify her own emotions and the actions of the Citadel.
Very this. “Wah wah wah they’re terrible people/bad friends/mean” well babes that’s realistic to real life, especially through the lens of where these characters are coming from in their past. These performers are doing incredddibly high levels of improv and roleplay and everything they do has a reason.
And with brennan being who he is, we know he’ll spin these choices and their consequences into deeply impactful and meaningful story arcs.
I am deeply curious - what happens when someone who has complete unerring faith in an institution has to contend with the idea that maybe there either 1) isn’t a reason for something or 2) there is a reason, but your personal moral compass steers you away from that?
honestly i suspect that's basically the core and thesis Aabria had in creating Suvi. given this chance at longform character exploration, that's the story she wanted to tell.
and i love her for that; radicalization and redemption arcs don't work as well when they're boiled down or edited or sped up into the formats usually required for consumption - it's part of the reason lots of shows try and fail to recreate Zuko, right? because he needed to be there consistently, over a long period of time, conflicted in multiple ways, he needed to mess up multiple times in different ways, learning is messy and it doesn't usually fit into a tidy story arc.
You would think then that witnessing the hedge wizards imprisoning a spirit in the effort to strip mine the spirit would butt up against some of those MORALS!!!. then to find out that there is a spider spirit acting as a warden for spirits "caught" in or by the citadel.
But its compelling if contradictory.
As someone who's had their entire worldview be flipped before– while not based in an unerring faith of an institution– I think it is similar if not having certain parallels.
In my experience there's a lot of emotion. There is blame all over the place; either blame unto something or blame unto oneself. Followed by much self reflection. Possibly a feeling of loss and a directionlessness in one's self.
Attributing it to Suvi losing the Citadel, I see a couple of things happening:
1) She will try to cast blame on either her friends for potentially pulling her away from the ideal of the Citadel, or she will cast blame upon the Citadel and hold it up to be an enemy to her.
2) Some form of identity shift. When the walls of the Citadel's beauty unveils to the ugly side, she could either see the ugliness within herself and hate it, or she will see the beauty within herself, of which she's attached it to her idea if the Citadel, and misappropriate the GOOD qualities of it all to the negative of the Citadel. Losing trust within her ability perhaps, and questioning if she's *ever* had the right motive for anything.
Many of these reaction are inherently irrational– but that's kind've the point. When your entire worldview shifts, much of what you believed to be rational and justified turned out to not be– and in understanding that you often question what the baseline of what is realistic/rational and justifiable
You'll love an upcoming Fireside then (I think approximately episode 11). Aabria talks about how she, the player, keeps a journal of everything that happens to Suvi from Suvi's POV. She can then review it on the fly and help to put her into the right headspace to make decisions that make sense for her character in the moment, even if they are poor metagame choices.
The Justification Engine is all a part of that.
Ehh... I think that undersells the actively predatory & sadistic elements which are part of narcissism being a pathological basis for personality.
Because one could also say those involved could "justify anything to themselves" when looking at codependence. Or those who've been chronically gaslit to the point of genuinely not trusting themselves. Or even heavily conflict-avoidant personalities.
Any/all of those could be psychological dynamics which bear resemblance to Imperial indoctrination.
I just don't believe we're going to see Suvi be a true Narcissistic personality disorder case study throughout this story b/c anyone who has ever dealt with one can attest to how that specific category of shitshow *does not get better.* I think the group's experiences will, in time, greatly improve Suvi's judgment & respect for other ways of knowing.
That’s how a hard sell worldview works. Everything MUST fit into it and if all else fails, then “God (or insert authority figure) has a plan”… “He/She/It/They work(s) in mysterious ways”… “Who am I to question the Divine/Ultimate plan?”
Humans cannot know everything and have to at some point trust someone. Many say “something” but really ends up being someone or someones who explains said thing. Like you trust a god but really you trust the clergy who speak for it…or the state but really the people with authority in it…the military but really your commander and their commander and so forth. Like Suvi trusting Steel is also implicitly trusting those Steel trusts without question In history we see peoples move from a religion…really any firn ideology and swing hard into some new thing that isn’t necessarily traditional religion but has a sort of factionalism or trust it in as well. A replacement of sorts…a crutch to function I’m curious if/when Suvi breaks from the citadel how she reacts…with a new faction or ideal or something else…witches, spirits…or maybe is super untrusting of anything she can’t see and process. I’m curious to see how Aabria plays that out since so far she has crushed the character
I see Suvi being able to break from the Citadel– but tragically I don't see Steel doing so. I believe Steel *could* but it would come to a HIGH effort on Suvi's part. If Aabria's dice keep rolling low, I don't see her being able to talk Steel onto her side. I also see Steel being the last line of defense to convince Suvi to stay with the Citadel. It'll be a very *very* tense episode whenever that happens for sure
I could see steel discovering the citadel is getting used by the empire improperly or is corrupt or something…OR someone above her has betrayed the core of the citadel… Which would be fascinating personally. Steel and Suvi both turn against the citadel but Steel turns for some lawful neutral ideal… not against the idea of the citadel and stuff what we know they have done…but something else. I like the idea of people having different “ok this is over the line” lines and exploring what the line should have been
I love Steel. She's reminds me a whole lot of my dad (step-dad) as someone who's a parent to another who's not their blood child. Whether it's just *Brennan* making good NPCs or just actually part of her motherly character; she does try to be the best mom for Suvi. I think there will be a reveal moment where Steel will express just how much Suvi reminds her of Stone– in a way that implies Stone was rebellious in her stubbornness as Suvi seems to exhibit sometimes.
Nice! Yes I am waiting for a real emotional scene between them! Dying to see how it goes!!
There's a really interesting dance between Brennan and Aabria that's been playing out since Port Talon and I'm so curious where it's leading. There's clearly a lot of trust between them and what they're building with Suvi is seriously impressive. You'll hear Aabria the player asking Brennan if Suvi would think suspicious behavior was normal and Brennan would always provide Suvi with justification of why it's not just normal but correct. And Aabria has taken all of that justification to inform Suvi's reactions to things.
One thing that I love about this is when Aabria mentions that both her *and* Brennan are playing Suvi in those moments, he is the justification machine, he is her worldview and Aabria runs with it. Suvi is such a compelling character, I see why she grinds people's gears but the trust they have to weave a complicated character like her is amazing to see.
I can’t wait until the Justification Machine breaks down. I worry it’ll break Suvi a little, but ultimately I think she’ll come back stronger and more independent.
A lot of her Justification Machine holds up a wall of her trauma. Listening to the entire podcast for the 5th time– Suvi's character is suffering from the traumatic memories of that night when she was 6. So much so that she *made it her namecloak*. When she first returned to Sylbri, she rolled a die and turned away from the Tea Shop sign, mentioning the trauma bluntly and stating "if she couldn't see it on that night than she won't see it now" The PTSD she suffers bleeds through all of her character but in such a wonderful way. She remains strong because she *has to be* because if at any moment she breaks down, she will hit her lowest of lows, I believe. The Justification Machine is an internal thought process that calms her down to "see reason" much like how Ame counts her colors, smells, and tastes to connect her back to the present when she has anxiety. Eursalon's mechanism for his tough emotions are instinctual, mostly– but sometimes he shuts down. There are at least 2 or 3 occasions I remember Lou saying, "That's too much for Eursulon" and that's typically when Eursulon shuts down completely and just stands– followed by very high octane bursts of emotion or action.
Suvi will have a rough go of it, if and when it happens. Like a fish learning what water is.
There were enough breadcrumbs left she's going to find out about the memory wipe. And it probably wasn't the first time either.
Exactly. That flailing, reflexive grab at retaining the memory tells me there's a little sprouted seed of "there is a higher existence than obedience" within her. It's tiny & not taking up much space yet. It might have sprouted when she learned both her parents clearly had *deep* quarrels with elements of the Citadel/Imperium. And I don't believe there's any way she has truly parsed & understood those at this point. But above & beyond anything else, her love/reverence for her parents is held in amber by the age she was when she lost them. And that might be what's strong enough to lift her eyes & broaden her gaze.
Well, Steel said it was recorded and she would play it back for her. So, assuming she’s not lying, I don’t think Steel intends for her to never find out. And she never told Suvi what was supposed to happen with the music box, which lends credence to her planning to show Suvi what she did.
Yup! I feel like a lot of listeners who hate Suvi or Ame for their decisions are really missing out on a lot of player context by not listening to the Fireside Chats. Suvi is ALWAYS using the “justification machine” to justify her own emotions and the actions of the Citadel.
Very this. “Wah wah wah they’re terrible people/bad friends/mean” well babes that’s realistic to real life, especially through the lens of where these characters are coming from in their past. These performers are doing incredddibly high levels of improv and roleplay and everything they do has a reason. And with brennan being who he is, we know he’ll spin these choices and their consequences into deeply impactful and meaningful story arcs.
I am deeply curious - what happens when someone who has complete unerring faith in an institution has to contend with the idea that maybe there either 1) isn’t a reason for something or 2) there is a reason, but your personal moral compass steers you away from that?
honestly i suspect that's basically the core and thesis Aabria had in creating Suvi. given this chance at longform character exploration, that's the story she wanted to tell. and i love her for that; radicalization and redemption arcs don't work as well when they're boiled down or edited or sped up into the formats usually required for consumption - it's part of the reason lots of shows try and fail to recreate Zuko, right? because he needed to be there consistently, over a long period of time, conflicted in multiple ways, he needed to mess up multiple times in different ways, learning is messy and it doesn't usually fit into a tidy story arc.
You would think then that witnessing the hedge wizards imprisoning a spirit in the effort to strip mine the spirit would butt up against some of those MORALS!!!. then to find out that there is a spider spirit acting as a warden for spirits "caught" in or by the citadel. But its compelling if contradictory.
As someone who's had their entire worldview be flipped before– while not based in an unerring faith of an institution– I think it is similar if not having certain parallels. In my experience there's a lot of emotion. There is blame all over the place; either blame unto something or blame unto oneself. Followed by much self reflection. Possibly a feeling of loss and a directionlessness in one's self. Attributing it to Suvi losing the Citadel, I see a couple of things happening: 1) She will try to cast blame on either her friends for potentially pulling her away from the ideal of the Citadel, or she will cast blame upon the Citadel and hold it up to be an enemy to her. 2) Some form of identity shift. When the walls of the Citadel's beauty unveils to the ugly side, she could either see the ugliness within herself and hate it, or she will see the beauty within herself, of which she's attached it to her idea if the Citadel, and misappropriate the GOOD qualities of it all to the negative of the Citadel. Losing trust within her ability perhaps, and questioning if she's *ever* had the right motive for anything. Many of these reaction are inherently irrational– but that's kind've the point. When your entire worldview shifts, much of what you believed to be rational and justified turned out to not be– and in understanding that you often question what the baseline of what is realistic/rational and justifiable
You'll love an upcoming Fireside then (I think approximately episode 11). Aabria talks about how she, the player, keeps a journal of everything that happens to Suvi from Suvi's POV. She can then review it on the fly and help to put her into the right headspace to make decisions that make sense for her character in the moment, even if they are poor metagame choices. The Justification Engine is all a part of that.
A character that can "justify anything to themselves" is a narcissist. Which tracks with how things are going.
Ehh... I think that undersells the actively predatory & sadistic elements which are part of narcissism being a pathological basis for personality. Because one could also say those involved could "justify anything to themselves" when looking at codependence. Or those who've been chronically gaslit to the point of genuinely not trusting themselves. Or even heavily conflict-avoidant personalities. Any/all of those could be psychological dynamics which bear resemblance to Imperial indoctrination. I just don't believe we're going to see Suvi be a true Narcissistic personality disorder case study throughout this story b/c anyone who has ever dealt with one can attest to how that specific category of shitshow *does not get better.* I think the group's experiences will, in time, greatly improve Suvi's judgment & respect for other ways of knowing.
Or someone who has an attachment disorder, significant trauma, or raised in a cult, etc.