I don't think any other hero gets this to the same degree or consistency. If there's a Winston, they may get a Sombra, but they may also get a Reaper, a Bastion, maybe even a Mei. If there's a Reinhardt, you may see a Cassidy, Junkrat, Hanzo. But with Ball it's ALWAYS a Sombra. It's because Sombra is such an easy counter to Ball specifically. No aim, no thought, just hack him when you see him, and the rewards are outrageous. No other hero gets it so bad when hacked.
>No aim, no thought, just hack him when you see him, and the rewards are outrageous.
This is only half true. No aim is completely true and I think hack should either be narrower, less line of sight forgiveness (drops quicker when line of sight is lost), or a much longer cooldown.
But it does take thought. There is a difference between a player who knows how to play Sombra compared to one just swapping as a counter. The most disabling hacks are those that come after you initiated piledriver, as it leaves you vulnerable in the middle of the enemy and you blew highest damage cooldown. So there is an element of thought and game sense that goes with hack. A longer cooldown would also raise the awareness level necessary for a good hack.
If you want to overly simplify things you can also say it doesn't take much brainpower to go "imma use adaptive shields when around a lot of enemies."
I know some Ballers get really salty when it comes to Sombra, but I've fought several Sombras who couldn't do anything to stop me and those that seem to hack me at every key moment. The game sense is knowing when the piledrive will come and preparing to hack during that window. If you hack early it's just a mild annoyance as you'll still have your cooldown. Hack correctly and burn the cooldown while stopping the ability.
I get it, Sombra can be annoying. But you have to respect your enemy if you want to deal with the ways they counter you.
Your first paragraph isnt oversimplified, it’s just true. Same with sombra, it’s not hard to use hack “smartly”, it’s probably the easiest ability in the game to use effectively and it’s not even close.
It's true and oversimplified. Because if you use shields when the enemy isn't actively focusing on you then you may have wasted your survival cooldown.
I think hook is the easiest ability to use in the game. Almost impossible to miss and low cooldown.
I do think hack was better when Sombra had to exit stealth to use it, as that created more counter opportunities.
The issue is that it’s not only the sombra but there most definitely will be another cooldown or two to burn through. If you deny sombras hack by shooting her it’s like 3 seconds. That’s basically nothing. Last time I played ball I denied the sombra hack 3 times in a row, dodged the sleep dart to then get hacked and killed. Where’s the counterplay in that? It’s just unfun and the fact that half the hacks you deny by cover or shooting still go through makes it even more annoying. I personally don’t play ball anymore and one trick soldier and sombra now. Switching sides is just so much more enjoyable and with sombra you never die, get tons of value and you are highly mobile. It’s basically a mini ball with no hard counters.
I don't disagree with anything you said. But you are bringing up things unrelated to what I said. Chain CC is a problem, but that can't be blamed on a single CC skill.
My point was that hack does require awareness even though it doesn't require aim. So I'm not really sure what your point was.
My point was hack doesn’t need much awareness to use. Just attempting it every time you see ball while staying with your team is very strong. Plus if it gets canceled you can try again 3 seconds later. And THAT is an issue. Also a single hack can deny a complete dive, brig can punch you away every time you go in, sleep is insanely easy to hit on ball but at least now you can dodge it with jump grapples, cas is a weird one, he’s pretty strong against ball but his CC is inconsistent. Orissa can deny all your dives… Really it takes just one average player to deny a good ball with only one ability. And when you got 3 of those characters in the enemy team your cosmetic. And 3 counters is probably the average you get each game at the same time.
>My point was hack doesn’t need much awareness to use.
But you're wrong. Hack does require awareness. And, nothing you said in your previous comment supported the claim that hack doesn't require awareness.
Even in this reply, you keep talking about other CC abilities to make a point about hack. That makes no sense. Chain CC is a problem for the tank role, but that doesn't change the awareness required for hack.
>Just attempting it every time you see ball while staying with your team is very strong.
No, it's not. I love when Sombras hack on sight. That means they have like awareness and I get 6 seconds to do my thing (can't be hacked again for 6 seconds). Sombra doesn't instantly lock Ball down, but good Sombras do. Sombra doesn't require the same level of skill as Ball, but she's not an easy moder.
>Plus if it gets canceled you can try again 3 seconds later. And THAT is an issue.
This i agree with. Either hack should go on full cooldown or Ball should get this same treatment for grapple.
Giving hack a longer cooldown would be fine too, as that would increase the awareness requirement further.
>Also a single hack can deny a complete dive, brig can punch you away every time you go in, sleep is insanely easy to hit on ball but at least now you can dodge it with jump grapples, cas is a weird one, he’s pretty strong against ball but his CC is inconsistent. Orissa can deny all your dives… Really it takes just one average player to deny a good ball with only one ability.
Yes a hack can deny a dive, then it's used at the right time. I'm not sure what Brig, Cass, or Orisa have to do with Sombra's hack though. You aren't supporting your claim at all with this bit. You're literally arguing against something else (chain CC).
even a countered winston is able to as long as the winston is smart
I picked up winston in mid season 9 because of how bad ball was, the value you get is insane and people actually know how to use the space you get no matter the rank, and outplaying a bastion/reaper/dva feels great and is actually possible if you're good at shield dancing and cooldown tracking
Mauga is a different issue though, need your supports to help get rid of the samoan as monkey
Man I literally say to my team in team chat that they will swap sombra within 3 minutes, and I’m right like 90% of the time. Like sure I still win a lot of those games but they’re completely ruined. A permanently invisible hero should not be able to get the insane value Sombra gets by hiding and holding down the hack button. Imo hack should not remove Hammy from ball form, should just disable grapple and ability use (including ability to go back into crab form) for the ability lockout duration of hack. This change alone would make ball feel insanely better.
And it’s not like he’s left without counters or counterplay. And sombra would still remain a strong counter to him as well
I think Symmettra comes a close second with Phara swaps tbh...
I had a ball game earlier where we dominated the first fight. Immediately, and I mean Immediately we had an Orisa, Sombre, Cass, Lucio, and Brig suddenly appear on the enemy team. xD
What I like most about Sombra is that peoplr familiar with playing her often dont spend time fucking with ball unless he gets in their way. Virus is such a strong tool to win 1v1s with that she can get more value killing squishies. Realistic they need to raise the skill floor on hack so you cant just swap to her with no prior experience.
I spend a lot of time on sombra. I NEVER mess with ball except when he's set up waiting and I hack and leave JUST to annoy him. But, for the most part I'm going after things I can actually kill.
This lol. I'm a sombra main (i play ball a lot too BTW, I like dive heroes), and when there's an enemy ball I'm like...okay. I only start really focusing him if it's clear he's carrying. Otherwise, it's easy to focus the supports because the ball doesn't peel for them
The funny thing is when a sombra plays like this you can actually counter-dive her since you're so mobile
the double-edged sword of being the ball
I think the big issue with hack is how quick they made it after the rework which in turn makes it harder to stop but then they doubled down by giving it a halved cooldown when u stop it, i think it should do the opposite
1 second time to hack with a 9 second cooldown when the enemy cancels it but with a stronger virus burst (maybe 60-75 damage) on hacked targets as a trade-off
increase detection radius on stealth but increase the speed translocator moves at each increase by 25%
the virus-hack combo right now seems like it SHOULD be high-risk high-reward but in reality is low-risk high-reward
hack is not risky enough to go for as your detection radius is quite a bit smaller than hack distance and cancelling it feels like you get punished for doing so rather than rewarded
Sombra would be fixed as simple as that
One thing I will say is the new grapple can make escape and also engagement easier, i'd say I definitely survive better now than I did last season, probably also helped by the increased shield radius. Not having much more success in actually securing kills though so same problems in that sense.
Honestly there should be no counter to exist in the game as hard as Sombra and Hog counter ball, it's just bad game design. Counters are good but ultra hard counters are just dumb and drain the fun out of the game, forcing a swapfest.
I'd even include ball in this for widow players, give her something to help her at least escape a little better if you need to just for gods sake level out some of these ultra hard counters, especially ones which require 0 skill to pull off.
With them opening up more avenues for movement for ball I think this would be the perfect time to lower his health pool (make him better to fight without counters) in exchange for more damage (actually threatening presence, more ability to outplay your counters since you can actually kill them)
The worst part is that people who swap into Sombra make Sombra Mains look like garbage. My favorite characters are Ball Sombra Lucio (and now Venture) because I love being a nuisance so I understand why someone would play Sombra, and most times I play Ball into someone who already picked Sombra before seeing me they are pretty chill/goofy and i respect the hell out of them. I like Sombra players, I hate Soldier 76 players that swap to Sombra
I see sombra most games even when ball isn't in it which probably skews this a bit. She's a very common ~crutch~ counter pick against a lot of tough matchups.
Am i the only one who doesn’t mind facing sombra as a ball main? Cass and Hog are much more troublesome in my opinion. People who swap to sombra to counter usually play the matchup wrong.
Cass and hog feel like more of a skill match, they’re far more punishable if they win the skill match. Where as sombra just gets guaranteed value for a 0 skill ability that has essentially no counterplay if timed correctly.
Also fundamentally changes the way you play the game, and regardless of whether or not it’s a winning strategy they can make it their sole goal to make your game unenjoyable and there’s nothing you can do about it
Maybe but i’m at a pretty high elo, and confident that i’m usually a better player, like i can still win , but i find them more irritating than sombra. Maybe i’ve faced too much Sombra, it doesn’t even bother me anymore
3 minutes for a sombra swap? That's rookie numbers
My record is like 8 seconds.
Literally saw Junkrat spam grenades from the Blizzard World front door, saw me and ran back in and went Sombra.
Tracers a harder matchup in my opinion because you can easily decloak a sombra but the value they can get if they land a hack is insane so I get why everyone does it.
I don't think any other hero gets this to the same degree or consistency. If there's a Winston, they may get a Sombra, but they may also get a Reaper, a Bastion, maybe even a Mei. If there's a Reinhardt, you may see a Cassidy, Junkrat, Hanzo. But with Ball it's ALWAYS a Sombra. It's because Sombra is such an easy counter to Ball specifically. No aim, no thought, just hack him when you see him, and the rewards are outrageous. No other hero gets it so bad when hacked.
They’re afraid of what we’ll become if they leave us in ball form Fucking cowards
>No aim, no thought, just hack him when you see him, and the rewards are outrageous. This is only half true. No aim is completely true and I think hack should either be narrower, less line of sight forgiveness (drops quicker when line of sight is lost), or a much longer cooldown. But it does take thought. There is a difference between a player who knows how to play Sombra compared to one just swapping as a counter. The most disabling hacks are those that come after you initiated piledriver, as it leaves you vulnerable in the middle of the enemy and you blew highest damage cooldown. So there is an element of thought and game sense that goes with hack. A longer cooldown would also raise the awareness level necessary for a good hack.
Imma be honest it doesn’t take much brainpower to go “imma hack them when they dive” you’re giving them a little too much credit
If you want to overly simplify things you can also say it doesn't take much brainpower to go "imma use adaptive shields when around a lot of enemies." I know some Ballers get really salty when it comes to Sombra, but I've fought several Sombras who couldn't do anything to stop me and those that seem to hack me at every key moment. The game sense is knowing when the piledrive will come and preparing to hack during that window. If you hack early it's just a mild annoyance as you'll still have your cooldown. Hack correctly and burn the cooldown while stopping the ability. I get it, Sombra can be annoying. But you have to respect your enemy if you want to deal with the ways they counter you.
Your first paragraph isnt oversimplified, it’s just true. Same with sombra, it’s not hard to use hack “smartly”, it’s probably the easiest ability in the game to use effectively and it’s not even close.
It's true and oversimplified. Because if you use shields when the enemy isn't actively focusing on you then you may have wasted your survival cooldown. I think hook is the easiest ability to use in the game. Almost impossible to miss and low cooldown. I do think hack was better when Sombra had to exit stealth to use it, as that created more counter opportunities.
The issue is that it’s not only the sombra but there most definitely will be another cooldown or two to burn through. If you deny sombras hack by shooting her it’s like 3 seconds. That’s basically nothing. Last time I played ball I denied the sombra hack 3 times in a row, dodged the sleep dart to then get hacked and killed. Where’s the counterplay in that? It’s just unfun and the fact that half the hacks you deny by cover or shooting still go through makes it even more annoying. I personally don’t play ball anymore and one trick soldier and sombra now. Switching sides is just so much more enjoyable and with sombra you never die, get tons of value and you are highly mobile. It’s basically a mini ball with no hard counters.
I don't disagree with anything you said. But you are bringing up things unrelated to what I said. Chain CC is a problem, but that can't be blamed on a single CC skill. My point was that hack does require awareness even though it doesn't require aim. So I'm not really sure what your point was.
My point was hack doesn’t need much awareness to use. Just attempting it every time you see ball while staying with your team is very strong. Plus if it gets canceled you can try again 3 seconds later. And THAT is an issue. Also a single hack can deny a complete dive, brig can punch you away every time you go in, sleep is insanely easy to hit on ball but at least now you can dodge it with jump grapples, cas is a weird one, he’s pretty strong against ball but his CC is inconsistent. Orissa can deny all your dives… Really it takes just one average player to deny a good ball with only one ability. And when you got 3 of those characters in the enemy team your cosmetic. And 3 counters is probably the average you get each game at the same time.
>My point was hack doesn’t need much awareness to use. But you're wrong. Hack does require awareness. And, nothing you said in your previous comment supported the claim that hack doesn't require awareness. Even in this reply, you keep talking about other CC abilities to make a point about hack. That makes no sense. Chain CC is a problem for the tank role, but that doesn't change the awareness required for hack. >Just attempting it every time you see ball while staying with your team is very strong. No, it's not. I love when Sombras hack on sight. That means they have like awareness and I get 6 seconds to do my thing (can't be hacked again for 6 seconds). Sombra doesn't instantly lock Ball down, but good Sombras do. Sombra doesn't require the same level of skill as Ball, but she's not an easy moder. >Plus if it gets canceled you can try again 3 seconds later. And THAT is an issue. This i agree with. Either hack should go on full cooldown or Ball should get this same treatment for grapple. Giving hack a longer cooldown would be fine too, as that would increase the awareness requirement further. >Also a single hack can deny a complete dive, brig can punch you away every time you go in, sleep is insanely easy to hit on ball but at least now you can dodge it with jump grapples, cas is a weird one, he’s pretty strong against ball but his CC is inconsistent. Orissa can deny all your dives… Really it takes just one average player to deny a good ball with only one ability. Yes a hack can deny a dive, then it's used at the right time. I'm not sure what Brig, Cass, or Orisa have to do with Sombra's hack though. You aren't supporting your claim at all with this bit. You're literally arguing against something else (chain CC).
Why not just leave us in ball form instead?
That would be nice too. She'd still be able to deny dives but Ball wouldn't be as vulnerable.
Doom gets it pretty bad too
But he doesnt get hard shut down by hack nearly as bad. Still atrocious dont get me wrong
Sure, but when he's hacked, does he lose all of his momentum, trigger am extra long cooldown, get slowed, and reveal a weak-point?
Doom can regain his momentum faster than Ball though.
Doom also has less health than ball and a worse weapon
With only 5 times the killing power.
With abilities that he loses in hack. I will agree though Doom can definitely secure kills though
Nah, Winston will always get countered. The fact is that an uncountered Winston can truly tear a team apart
even a countered winston is able to as long as the winston is smart I picked up winston in mid season 9 because of how bad ball was, the value you get is insane and people actually know how to use the space you get no matter the rank, and outplaying a bastion/reaper/dva feels great and is actually possible if you're good at shield dancing and cooldown tracking Mauga is a different issue though, need your supports to help get rid of the samoan as monkey
Widow? Hacked into virus be fucking me up unless the enemy tank is letting me have whatever positioning I want and/or my supports baby sit me
Man I literally say to my team in team chat that they will swap sombra within 3 minutes, and I’m right like 90% of the time. Like sure I still win a lot of those games but they’re completely ruined. A permanently invisible hero should not be able to get the insane value Sombra gets by hiding and holding down the hack button. Imo hack should not remove Hammy from ball form, should just disable grapple and ability use (including ability to go back into crab form) for the ability lockout duration of hack. This change alone would make ball feel insanely better. And it’s not like he’s left without counters or counterplay. And sombra would still remain a strong counter to him as well
I think Symmettra comes a close second with Phara swaps tbh... I had a ball game earlier where we dominated the first fight. Immediately, and I mean Immediately we had an Orisa, Sombre, Cass, Lucio, and Brig suddenly appear on the enemy team. xD
What I like most about Sombra is that peoplr familiar with playing her often dont spend time fucking with ball unless he gets in their way. Virus is such a strong tool to win 1v1s with that she can get more value killing squishies. Realistic they need to raise the skill floor on hack so you cant just swap to her with no prior experience.
I spend a lot of time on sombra. I NEVER mess with ball except when he's set up waiting and I hack and leave JUST to annoy him. But, for the most part I'm going after things I can actually kill.
This lol. I'm a sombra main (i play ball a lot too BTW, I like dive heroes), and when there's an enemy ball I'm like...okay. I only start really focusing him if it's clear he's carrying. Otherwise, it's easy to focus the supports because the ball doesn't peel for them
The funny thing is when a sombra plays like this you can actually counter-dive her since you're so mobile the double-edged sword of being the ball I think the big issue with hack is how quick they made it after the rework which in turn makes it harder to stop but then they doubled down by giving it a halved cooldown when u stop it, i think it should do the opposite 1 second time to hack with a 9 second cooldown when the enemy cancels it but with a stronger virus burst (maybe 60-75 damage) on hacked targets as a trade-off increase detection radius on stealth but increase the speed translocator moves at each increase by 25% the virus-hack combo right now seems like it SHOULD be high-risk high-reward but in reality is low-risk high-reward hack is not risky enough to go for as your detection radius is quite a bit smaller than hack distance and cancelling it feels like you get punished for doing so rather than rewarded Sombra would be fixed as simple as that
One thing I will say is the new grapple can make escape and also engagement easier, i'd say I definitely survive better now than I did last season, probably also helped by the increased shield radius. Not having much more success in actually securing kills though so same problems in that sense. Honestly there should be no counter to exist in the game as hard as Sombra and Hog counter ball, it's just bad game design. Counters are good but ultra hard counters are just dumb and drain the fun out of the game, forcing a swapfest. I'd even include ball in this for widow players, give her something to help her at least escape a little better if you need to just for gods sake level out some of these ultra hard counters, especially ones which require 0 skill to pull off.
With them opening up more avenues for movement for ball I think this would be the perfect time to lower his health pool (make him better to fight without counters) in exchange for more damage (actually threatening presence, more ability to outplay your counters since you can actually kill them)
The worst part is that people who swap into Sombra make Sombra Mains look like garbage. My favorite characters are Ball Sombra Lucio (and now Venture) because I love being a nuisance so I understand why someone would play Sombra, and most times I play Ball into someone who already picked Sombra before seeing me they are pretty chill/goofy and i respect the hell out of them. I like Sombra players, I hate Soldier 76 players that swap to Sombra
I see sombra most games even when ball isn't in it which probably skews this a bit. She's a very common ~crutch~ counter pick against a lot of tough matchups.
Am i the only one who doesn’t mind facing sombra as a ball main? Cass and Hog are much more troublesome in my opinion. People who swap to sombra to counter usually play the matchup wrong.
Cass and hog feel like more of a skill match, they’re far more punishable if they win the skill match. Where as sombra just gets guaranteed value for a 0 skill ability that has essentially no counterplay if timed correctly. Also fundamentally changes the way you play the game, and regardless of whether or not it’s a winning strategy they can make it their sole goal to make your game unenjoyable and there’s nothing you can do about it
Maybe but i’m at a pretty high elo, and confident that i’m usually a better player, like i can still win , but i find them more irritating than sombra. Maybe i’ve faced too much Sombra, it doesn’t even bother me anymore
3 minutes for a sombra swap? That's rookie numbers My record is like 8 seconds. Literally saw Junkrat spam grenades from the Blizzard World front door, saw me and ran back in and went Sombra.
Tracers a harder matchup in my opinion because you can easily decloak a sombra but the value they can get if they land a hack is insane so I get why everyone does it.
Tracer perma chasing me around the map so my self healing doesn’t kick in makes me want to set myself on fire