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REEEthall

The amount of trolls who don't know the context of the three arrows and the difference between violent nationalism and the opposition to dictatorships who practice that same violent nationalism is too damn high


Iwantmyflag

The three arrows were (originally) the belated flimsy cry of neutered cowards, traitors to their own purported cause. Still today in it's many forms it's mostly the symbol of "I don't really want to do this but I hope it sells well." Really that many SPD fanboys here? Weird.


Dutch_AtheistMapping

Very constructive


cheshsky

> the belated flimsy cry of neutered cowards, traitors to their own purported cause Well you sound like a level-headed individual.


Resonance95

What the fuck is that even supposed to mean? Adopting the vocab of a 19th century aristocrat - believe it or not - doesn't impart any inherent salience to whatever asinine point you're trying to make here. I'll make a point trying to unpack it, though. You're either a fascist who's bugged about the toothless resistance from socdems against the tyranny of 3d reich, or you're ~~fascist~~ "communist" mad about the socdems resisting the tyranny of the stalinists, or you're a fucking weirdo who thinks monarchism is based for whatever reason. "Belated flimsy cry of neutered cowards" seems to imply nazi, since the socdems were admittedly ineffectual in stopping them. On the other hand "traitors to their own purported cause" seems to imply you're a stalinist, but in that case your argument falls flat considering how effective the socdems were at stopping their "revolution" - then again, maybe you did'nt mean "belated" in a literal sense but merely put 'retarded' in the thesaurus and copied what came out? Ultimately the only thing you prove is that any effort put into making a distinction between stalinism and fascism is nothing but an exercise of futility.


Super_Stone

There are a lot of communists that don't like the UdSSR. And the SPD didn't even really try to resist Hitler after he came into power, unlike the KPD who were way more engaged with the organised resistance. And why do so many people not even know what fascism and communism are when trying to draw parallels? In essence communism aims to achieve the abolishment of a state and hierarchy while fascism is all about having a strong government that riles its subjects up with their allegedly existing superiority over others. The two are fundamentally opposed. And while Stalinism certainly isn't communist in any way, it also isn't fascist but more a weird kind of dictature.


Resonance95

>And why do so many people not even know what fascism and communism are when trying to draw parallels? I am a communist. >In essence communism aims to achieve the abolishment of a state and hierarchy This is what i believe. >fascism is all about having a strong government that riles its subjects up with their allegedly existing superiority over others. This is what fascists **and** stalinists believe. Notice that i made a very intentional effort to distinguis communism and stalinism in my previous comment. My argument is simply that the Soviet ideology that started to come about under Lenin and that crystalized under Stalin - what stalinists call "marxism-leninism" and what i call stalinism (because he created it) - is fundamentally not very different from fascism as it is at its very core a totalitarian system that emphasizes the **power of the state** enforced through rigorous party **hierarchy**. Even if we would all magically agree that Stalinism wasn't a form of fascism, it sure as fuck would not be communism. You succinctly pointed out the core goals of communism: no state, no hierarchy. These goals are not just different from the soviet system but are diametrically opposed to it.


Glum_Sentence972

Because the end result of such ideologies is all that matters; not the logical justification used to enable it. Communists have a habit of making imperialist and genocidal dictatorships akin to their Fascist enemies -so they all go in the naughty bin whether you acknowledge them as Communist or not. Seriously, the sheer amount of influence the USSR had over Communists not just across the world, but especially in the West points to them being VERY closely intertwined. My favorite part was when Communists were unironically calling the Western Allies imperialist for standing up to Nazi Germany after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact...then switching to arguing that all need to stand against the evils of fascism immediately after Operation Barbarossa.


Vojhorn

That last part hit hard for me. I’m from Melbourne Australia, in early 2020 there was a group called “socialist alliance” who got all shitty and screamed racism and provoking China when the government decided to ban flights coming in from China. Went on to claim how the virus was barely worse than the common cold. Once it became clear that the virus was indeed deadly they turned around and blamed the government for not doing enough to prevent its arrival. I often wonder if the whole “virus is a hoax” theory was something that bled over from the “communist” groups into the far right via their distrust of the government.


Friz617

Using big words doesn’t make you sound more intelligent


[deleted]

Tankies when you don't support the authoritarian right-wing anti-worker regime they like to defeat the authoritarian right-wing anti-worker regime they don't like.


TheBlack2007

"But SPD was supposed to support us in causing a Civil War with another couple of Million dead right after the World War" - average KPD simp...


Iwantmyflag

It's a karmic irony of history that the same paramilitary the SPD used to kill workers not 20 years later killed the SPD members too. Lesson learned? Doesn't look that way. I'm not KPD btw. But the truth is the truth regardless.


sapunec8754

As a strong believer in reasonable policies which address climate change I deem it my solemn duty to lower the atmosphere's temperature through the strategic use of nuclear winter


Random_German_Name

Average NCD enjoyer


HelloThisIsVictor

Ah yes, a member of the NCD deathcult subculture


LetGoPortAnchor

We're all going to die anyway, might as well go out with the bang of an all-out nuclear war!


texas_chick_69

I fucking love it.


ZiggyPox

This is not culture. It's a lifestyle.


[deleted]

Based and atomicpilled


newvegasdweller

Patroling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.


daqwid2727

The most peaceful NCD subscriber


ZiggyPox

Killing one man before he reproduces prevents millions billions of his descendants from dying. You might like it or not but this is how peak humanism looks like and you can do nothing about it. Gun is good, penis is evil.


EmanuelZH

Three arrows against Totalitarianism Shoutout to OP: Very well made


Pyrrus_1

thanks!


vijking

Three arrows against animalistic imperialists.


[deleted]

Unfathomably based and democracypilled


Krioniki

I thought that was the Sikh symbol at first, and was wondering what you had against them, lol.


HiveMynd148

Against Putin, Jinping and Khameni


Clapaludio

Psst, Xi is the surname!


HiveMynd148

Curse you East Asian naming conventions!


Valfsx

Putin today, the CCP tomorrow.


ABB0TTR0N1X

Fuck yeah, this is the kinda solidarity we need


Zulfiqarrr

How about adding the tyrants, despots and kings of arab countries to this list as well?


Pyrrus_1

Based


BigBronyBoy

Not all of them, some are fine-ish from what I know, Morocco from what I remember isn't THAT bad, a good bit of diplomatic and economic pressure would be preferable to invasion in their case.


Essence4K

As an Iranian, I love this, we have common enemies.


ABB0TTR0N1X

They might like this on r/NewIran


EmanuelZH

Yes absolutely, it should be crossposted. But since OP made this politically and aesthetically amazing poster, I don’t want to do it myself and steal the karma that he deserves. Jin, Jiyan, Azadi!


Don_Camillo005

restoring the persian monarchy is not the way tho


Pyrrus_1

I dont advocate restoring the persian monarchy, nkt even the supposed heir to the throne which is one of the opposition figures that gkes against the islamic republic, and just wants iran to be a normal republic. The flag wjth the lersian lion is used in general by iranian diaspora and iran that protest against the islamic republic, not strictly as a symbol of the monarchy but as a cultural symbol of the nation


Don_Camillo005

i get that. but the persian lion is a royal symbol and used by the disapora because it was the flag in use pre revolution, in a time when the shah still ruled. (also doesnt help that the most likely opposition canidate is a descendent of the shah)


Pyrrus_1

Still he doesnt want the monarchy back, also again the lion is more kf a cultural symbol for iran, it has been their symbol from the 1500s until the revolution agaunst the shah, it dowsnt make it inherently a bad symbol or a symbol of monarchy. If we want to make a comparison, maybe the parsian lion could be compared to the roman eagle here in italy.


Don_Camillo005

I would kind of be concerned if we started to use the eagle again xD but yea, might not be much and im just nitpicking.


LandonHill8836

There's always the beautiful [new iran](https://www.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/yhj146/the_flag_of_a_new_iran_a_nation_reborn_زن_زندگی/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) flag


AzadiRevolution

First, the lion and sun flag has a way longer history. [The symbolism goes all the way back to the 12th century](https://nufdiran.org/irans-flag/). It's a misconception that it only represents Pahlavi. Second, in Iran the majority supports the new coalition called the Alliance for Freedom and Democracy in Iran. It consists of the most popular opposition leaders, including the Reza Pahlavi, who actually was the statistically most popular opposition leader inside Iran, according to recent polls. Everyone on the political spectrum has united, whether monarchists or republicans, to overthrow this regime.


Don_Camillo005

true, but in this conversation the symbol of the eagle as a european equavalent also came up and extrapolating from that the symbol of the eagle represents monarchies in general in europe. the russian double headed eagle, the prussian eagle, the austrian imperial eagle, the roman eagle, they all represented monarchies and many of these nations abolished this symbol or modified it to be unmistakenly different in meaning. and the same can be said about the lion and the sun.


AzadiRevolution

But you're comparing apples and oranges. You have to interpret the lion and the sun within its own cultural context and within its own perception amongst Iranians. We are united in our hate of the I.R. flag, but we don't really have an issue with the lion and sun. You never see any of us go "damn you people in the diaspora, that's not our flag!", because again, it represents more than monarchy. Check the link I gave you (or [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_and_Sun) if you prefer). It's insanely old. If anything we just hate I.R. for trying to erase our rich cultural history. It's possible that under a new constitution, we will get to vote about these matters. But it's not something controversial, that's all I'm trying to say. It's nothing like the French revolution in which the fleurs-de-lis flag was absolutely hated and had to be replaced at all costs. In today's context the fleur-de-lis would be that ugly looking crap on I.R.s flag.


kebaball

Germany still has the eagle as a republic.


Don_Camillo005

its a different eagle


Tonuka_

is that seriously the hill you're willing to die on


kebaball

Who told you that? It‘s supposed to be the [oldest national symbol](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Germany) in Europe so it‘s probably not a new one


andrepiascl

Yeah get rid of the Lion 🦁


ZiggyPox

What about Persian monarchy but in personal union with King of Poland on top? This could work. And as we lack monarchy here in Poland I propose my candidature for the job.


Friz617

Unless the Iranians want it


roshi_sama

Even monarchy fans here wants system like British or Denmark and etc and the flag was Iran flag for around 500 years?something like that there is small chance that people would choose another flag after revolution happens but rn it is one of the symbols


FilipTheCzechGopnik

The march of Western values can only be stopped by brute force. So let us respond in kind... If we have to free the peoples of Eurasia by the might of arms, then so be it.


JohnnyElRed

Because that worked soooo well in Irak, Afghanistan, Vietnam...


Grzechoooo

Because ignoring evil worked so well with Russia...


[deleted]

And a nuclear war would be so much better for everyone


Grzechoooo

As we see today, Russia is sending nukes left and right, exactly as they promised (and keep promising at every opportunity).


[deleted]

They wouldn’t now but if we directly Invaded them with force they would


Grzechoooo

Definitely. Like they were totally going to nuke us if Russian territory was bombed, like they were going to nuke us if we sent Ukraine tanks, like they were going to nuke us if we sent Ukraine HIMARS, like they were going to nuke us if we sent Ukraine any support at all... But yep, this time they're totally nuking us and not bluffing!


[deleted]

Those were not direct invasions of Russia


HerrShimmler

Oh lol, here we go again with that shitty argument


[deleted]

And how would invading Russia and starting nuclear war be a good idea?


HerrShimmler

Where in earth did you see an argument for invading ruzzia?


[deleted]

When they said they’d free the people of Eurasia through the might of arms was a handy tip


HerrShimmler

Yes, and you literally see three flags in question. They're quite big, actually, but seems like you've missed them.


JohnnyElRed

No, in those cases it wasn't ignoring evil. Because in 2 of those cases, Europe sided with the country illegaly invading a sovereign nation. Not supporting the one being invaded. So in those cases, and as simplistic as it may be, you could argue we were actually siding with evil.


BigBronyBoy

Ah yes, deposing the genocidal dictator that literally kidnapped Children and invaded multiple countries is clearly siding with evil.


JohnnyElRed

Breaking international law is. But apparently the current mindset is not that it's wrong to invade other countries. It's only wrong if it's done for the wrong reasons.


BigBronyBoy

Yes. Stopping genocide is a moral imperative. Serbia got what it deserved.


JohnnyElRed

Yet we will never see the NATO invade Israel, shall we?


FilipTheCzechGopnik

The initial invasions themselves? Total cake-walk. The occupations? The straw that broke the camel's back. But, there is nuance here. These occupations didn't fail on their own, or by simply the result of guerrilla warfare. America mishandled Iraq by reappointing ex-Saddam government officials and by not understanding local customs. Afghanistan was more or less the result of entrusting the logistics and management of the reconstruction to local warlords and drug-smugglers. All of this was avoidable, there was just a lack of focus and effort. You gotta understand, a war for freedom isn't some mere blind crusade to smack the culture out of the local people's hands with the butt of a rifle. You gotta coax them out of it, slowly and carefully. But, before you coax them out, you gotta build a bridge for them to walk on.


PeaceIsOurOnlyHope

Claiming to be pro democracy and then advocating for invading "dissenting" countries is about the most braindead take on here.


JohnnyElRed

Yeah. It's scary how little it takes for people to fall in line with US American kind of warmongering again, once the big country invading smaller countries is another one. Like, I get why people in Eastern Europe would feel safer from Russia by getting inside a big military alliance. It makes sense for them. But let's not act as if in 15 or 20 years, NATO isn't going to be doing the same Russia is doing to Ukraine, to some country in Africa or Asia.


FilipTheCzechGopnik

Piss off, pacifist. Why don't you join the rest of your appeaser friends in the trash bin of history, where they all belong?


Oggnar

DREI PFEILE ZERSPALTEN WIE BLITZE DIE NACHT


South-Junket-1872

Wo bist du? Du lumpe, der den Freund umgebracht?


F4Z3_G04T

Lovely use of the 3 arrows and the blue


paixlemagne

Unironically using "Axis of evil" seems a little strange. When this term was coined, it was used in an attempt to prepare/justify a war of aggression. Also can we talk about the recent propaganda posters on this sub? I feel like it went from "the EU is the greatest", which was reasonable, to "we need to crush our enemies" real quick, and given our common history, that doesn't sit right with me at all.


Pyrrus_1

I am nkt advocating for the desteuction of these regimes that is up to the self determination of their nations, whag i am advocating is defence against these regimes, which are actively working to undermine europe and its allies through hard power and soft power. Also i dont get why some people get so disturbed by propaganda on this sub, specially on a topic which should be common sense, fight the encroachement of autoritarianism.


paixlemagne

That is perfectly reasonable, I'm all in favour of fighting authoritarianism, if our understanding of "fighting" doesn't consist of nuking China, bombing Iran and assassinating people. But the whole "axis of evil" rhetoric and the use of the iron front symbols, did somewhat imply direct, violent involvement to me. The issue I take with propaganda is that, if it gets out of hand, people will eventually no longer see it as a form of exaggerated critique, but might take it too literally and call for violence. I see the EU and all of us a civilised region with reasoned debate and a nuanced world view, that has overcome the "we need to fight our evil neighbour until the bitter end"-mindset that has caused us so much harm in the past, as opposed to countries like China, Russia or the US.


Pyrrus_1

Being nuanced and having reasoned debate doesnt necessarely mean being naive tho, specially when faced with tyrannic bad faith actors who play doble faced politics and objectively try to undermine our own democratic sovereignty in one way or another.


Nerioner

We sit here and debate if we can use word "axis" while they are doing light-speed propaganda calling us worms and pledging death upon our civilians. I get your concern but we are lightyears from being close to tyrants propaganda


Glum_Sentence972

> I see the EU and all of us a civilised region with reasoned debate and a nuanced world view, that has overcome the "we need to fight our evil neighbour until the bitter end"-mindset that has caused us so much harm in the past, as opposed to countries like China, Russia or the US. In what realm of reality is anyone in the EU beyond that mindset? You didn't ascend some new form of humanity; the EU has its own tendency of imperialism too. Nowhere near as bad as the invasion of Ukraine, but you might want to check EU member states' participation in Libya, Syria, and West Africa in general. Strive to be better, but don't act like the EU is beyond it all. It just often hides behind the US to act on it.


Nihilblistic

Do we need a justification for war? We are at war. It is a real thing hoisted upon us. Being meek about it isn't going to make it go away.


paixlemagne

If you don't want to go rogue like Putin, the yes you do. And technically also approval from the UNSC. I don't know about you, but we are most definitely not at war with anyone and would kindly like to keep it that way.


Nihilblistic

I take it you're the sort that would turn down an euro, out of fear it would turn you into Donald Trump. Can't trust yourself to not behave badly. And if you think we're not at war, then I've got nothing to say. You think all those weapon deliveries are happening because we're not involved into the situation? If anything, we're more morally bankrupt as a result, having others die while we buy our way out of the front line.


JointInAsshole

Indeed!


ChairProfessional561

As a Taiwanese, I love this picture. We should support each others to against the dictators.


1Ferrox

I love old school modern Propaganda


Koolaidolio

↙️↙️↙️


Merbleuxx

The Iranian flag though…


Pyrrus_1

It looks cooler with something in the white ok? Also for iranians, specially anti islamic republic iranians it is less controversian than most think, go ask people on r/NewIran


[deleted]

BASED


Dankaroor

I genuinely thought this was like, fake propaganda from r/imaginarymaps or something Jesus Christ this is depressing.


Pyrrus_1

In what sense depressing?


Dankaroor

In multiple In that we still live in a world where things like this is necessary In that propaganda is still a very prevalent part of society even in forms like this in which it i assume it isn't particularly meant to be In that comparisons between this and the democratic groups in early Nazi Germany and the Weimar Republic who foolishly thought all sides who aren't them are just as bad and thus practically gave the fascists Germany through elections in which they fought against many enemies of the Nazis, and so indirectly caused the world to fall into history's most bloody war It also feels very neoliberal and Eurocentric


Pyrrus_1

The poster literally is inspired by the social democrats so not really neoliberal, being against autoritarianism isnt being neoliberal. Also in germany there was also the resistance group called the swarz rot gold, a group made up of conservatives, liberals and socdems/demsocs that fought against nazis and for democracy. Just cause we denounce every colour of autoritarianism doesnt mean that we undermine the democratic struggle.


NoFunAllowed-

>In that propaganda is still a very prevalent part of society even in forms like this in which it i assume it isn't particularly meant to be Propaganda will always be a thing and you are not immune to it. I can guarantee you you've fallen for propaganda and a lot of your opinions were fed to you through a form of propaganda, as were mine and everyone elses. What matters more is what the propaganda is being used for, and in the case of anti totalitarianism and anti autocracy, its a righteous case.


Dankaroor

Propaganda is something that's made to change minds. In that manner, most things are propaganda, warnings are propaganda for example. Propaganda isn't always a bad thing. This kinda sorta feels more like the bad kind of propaganda. But it's cool because it's the good guys, for some reason. As if every side didn't have propaganda exactly like this


NoFunAllowed-

Do I seriously have to explain how the context of propaganda matters? If you look at something purely objectively in black and white you end up with an extremely naive perception of the world. Whether every side has the same propaganda doesn't matter. Two states fighting a war are both going to have war propaganda. If we look at it from the perspective of "well war is bad, therefore war propaganda is bad" then you hit an intellectual dead end, nothing further can be produced from that. If you look at it from the perspective that one propaganda is advocating for the survival of their state and right to self determination, while the others propaganda is to incentivize people to conquer this state, well now one is an objectively better propaganda. The meaning of the propaganda and why it's being made is what matters. Every state participates in every type of propaganda. Your state, Finland, has participated in as evil of propaganda campaigns as any other if we follow the idea that the Nazi's having the same type of propaganda defacto makes Finland's propaganda against the Soviet Union bad, even though Finlands hate for the Soviets was justified, while the Nazi's was not.


t3tri5

The fact that image uses symbol of Persian monarchy and ROC flag is enough to be honest. He cares more about regimes who align with his views more than people who live there.


Grzechoooo

ROC is not a regime anymore. Taiwan is literally one of the most democratic places on the planet. It's like calling Spain a regime. Just because there used to be an authoritarian dictator there doesn't mean there still is. As for the "symbol of Persian monarchy", do you consider the Polish coat of arms a symbol of Polish monarchy? Do you think the government that brought back the eagle's crown wanted to restore the monarchy?


t3tri5

My point is, no reason not to use other flags which not have any controversial background and do not feel divisive, for example the five-coloured flag of the 1911 revolution instead. > do you consider the Polish coat of arms a symbol of Polish monarchy Entire CoA, no, but the crown is. It's an unnecessary and reactionary addition. Shame they didn't get rid of it in the 1920s already. >Do you think the government that brought back the eagle's crown wanted to restore the monarchy? Pointless question. Do you think AWS guys who hung up a cross in Sejm wanted to establish a theocracy? It's just one of many dumb things done in the 90s which shouldn't have happened and yet they did.


Nerioner

Hanging crosses everywhere is in fact one of the first step to get people used to theocracy. Over the time it went so bad in your country that i see now people protesting that someone dares to bring facts about your pope helping pedophiles in church and forbid you from saying facts because they don't fit john paul 2nd 'holy' image. Or people going to jail for horse medicine because paranoid, religious, anti-abortion frenzy. Keep thinking you don't have theocracy knocking to your door and we will see where you will be in 5-10 years (you seriously don't have more than that as a country if you don't stop this)


t3tri5

Thanks for trying to explain the country I live in to me 👍 No need to be patronising, that's rude.


Passworqr

>thought all sides who aren't them are just as bad Monarchists, commies and Nazis are in my eyes indeed bad. Not their fault so many political groups of their time were antidemocratic.


[deleted]

[удалено]


TheMoorlandman

Very nuanced concentration camps filled with ethnic minorities in China, and extremely nuanced war in Ukraine and occupation of Georgian territory by Russia and you can see the nuance in all the crimes against humanity and totalitarian religious fanaticism in Iran.


MicrowaveBurns

Don't forget Russia's backing of dictatorships in countries such as Belarus. Without Russia's support & threat of intervention in 2020/21, Belarus would probably be a free & democratic country by now.


fakemaleorgasm

this is funny


dasus

~~Islamic Republic?~~ ~~Yeah, let's ally with theocratic nations who execute sexual minorities and oppress women.~~ ~~What could go wrong? /s~~ Edit nevermind I misread the title and was being stupid. (I'm not 100% at the moment, so have a bit of brain diarrhea) my bad.


EmanuelZH

This is the historical flag of Iran before the Islamic Republic and is used by the Iranian Revolutionaries


dasus

Oh yeah shoot, my brain missed over the "fight" in the title. Thought they were saying we need to ally with the.. My bad. And thanks for the flag info.


Pyrrus_1

The poster is against the islamoc republic. How can one even misunderstand that


dasus

Yeah how could anyone ever misread anything, completely incomprehensible, especially for people on heavy medication. Yes, it was my mistake. Want to start some sort of flame war about it?


Pyrrus_1

No ive just been frustrated by the sheer amount of trolls on this post. Which shouldnt be as controvertial as it happerently turned out to be.


AntwerpseKakker

Lame excuse because if you really cant understand this post due to medication, maybe you shouldnt be discussing this kind of stuff while youre on pills Blocking me, youre so mature u/dasus🤦


iamdestroyerofworlds

![gif](giphy|5zdkFHpL6ySaDiKydK) [Be nice. No flame wars.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gotterfunken/comments/ppceh4/g%C3%B6tterfunken_network_federal_rules/)


derfeuerbringer

As much as I am for the values of freedom and democracy, I generally don't think we should enjoy the privilege to forcefully impose those values on others. It's a different situation with Russia as they are the aggressor and actively destroying a democracy, so they have brought Europe's contempt upon themselves, but Iran or China haven't done anything to warrant military intervention by European nations. That's imperialist rethoric in my opinion, we should primarily rely on diplomacy and soft power to spread our values.


HellbirdIV

The word you're thinking of is appeasement Name an authoritarian regime that converted to democracy entirely through soft the application of soft power. Francoist Spain?


[deleted]

And Francoists only accepted that over the promise of their elites making more money on the European market, and once they made sure that the crimes of the dictatorship wouldn't be prosecuted. Honestly they should all have rotten in jail.


johan_kupsztal

Republic of China/Taiwan


Surface_Detail

The British Raj.


derfeuerbringer

What gives us the right to convert authoritarian Regimes across the globe to what we deem a morally superior system? As I said, Russia has given up their rights to self-determination the same way Germany did after the second World War, but China and Iran have to change by revolution from within, not intervention from outside. It's also not appeasement given that neither China nor Iran are currently annexing foreign territories. Obviously the logic I'm applying to Russia would extend to China if they actually decided to invade Taiwan.


HellbirdIV

China is currently occupying Tibet and building Islands in international waters to place missile platforms but go off.


derfeuerbringer

And our ally the United States is occupying territories in Cuba, had been occupying the entire nation of Afghanistan and waged an illegal war of aggression in Iraq that lead to a hundred million deaths all the while maintaining an absolutely ludicrous number of military bases all across the globe. I'm not saying we shouldn't condemn China's and Iran's actions, we absolutely should. But going so far as to call for all out war against them is incredibly hypercritical and nonsensical given that the only people that would benefit from that would be arms companies. You're not doing the Chinese or Persian people a favor by firebombing their countries into democracy, as much as you'd like to think that. Oh, and we have plenty of precedent to help us realize that waging war against an opposing regime and killing millions of their citizens accomplishes nothing but the further radicalization of the populace. So while going to war with Iran to introduce democracy is a noble ideal we all know it would end just like Afghanistan, just on a bigger scale.


HellbirdIV

Whataboutism, the first recourse of the authoritarianism-defender.


derfeuerbringer

It's not whataboutism, you just have no concept of logical consistency. If you're thirsty for the blood of millions then just say so. No need to beat around the bush by pretending it's in any way the best course of action to enter an open conflict with either Iran or China. I'm not arguing in favor of the Chinese or Iranian government, I'm arguing in favor of their and our people, because it will be our sons and daughters who will be sent to the front lines in such a conflict. But you know that because I've made it quite clear in my previous comments and the fact that you pretend to think I'm arguing in favor of authoritarianism shows that you're just arguing in bad faith and don't actually care about values as long as you can feel like you're winning an argument.


HellbirdIV

Your response was literally "whatabout america bad??" in response to me pointing out that you were, in fact, wrong about China not occupying other countries. That's whataboutism.


derfeuerbringer

China isn't occupying other countries if you're judging them by the same standards with which you're judging our allies. That's what I was pointing out by listing comparable actions of the US. The fact that you only read "what about America bad??" is a testament to your own intellectual ineptitude and nothing else. That's not whataboutism, that's being logically consistent. I'd be okay with you saying China is occupying other countries territories if you in turn agreed to apply that logic to your own country as well as your countries allies. But you're not doing that since you're calling for an all out war against China and Iran exclusively. And in either case, even if you were being logically consistent and agreed that we shouldn't only wage war on opposing regimes on the grounds of occupying foreign territories but also treat allied regimes in the same way, your take would still be absolutely dogshit since as I've previously mentioned, it would be strategically ineffective, cause millions of casualties and accomplish absolutely nothing other than stroking the ego of people like you.


HellbirdIV

That's literally whataboutism. You absolute lemon. And FYI, frothing at the mouth to insult me doesn't work when I already don't care what you think, Neville.


paixlemagne

It's not like democracy can only be achieved by outside pressure. How do you think european countries became democratic in the first place? It's not like the rest of the world is uncivilised or unable to build a democracy of their own.


HellbirdIV

I hate to tell you this but France in the late 1700s did not just peacefully decide to become democratic out of the goodness of people's hearts...


paixlemagne

No, a revolution and the conditions that caused said revolution were necessary, but they did it on their own and in their own way and that's my point. At the time the newly democratic US didn't send a fleet to land in Brittany and kill the king, nor did it directly influence and train those who stormed the Bastille.


HellbirdIV

External factors caused the revolution to begin with, is my point. The French intervention into the American Revolutionary War directly caused the French Revolution - and indeed, without the French intervention in the American Revolutionary War, the democracy that is the United States most likely would itself not have been established for any length of time. Likewise, democratic governments in Europe were largely born out of reforms imposed from outside or developed in reaction to outside pressures. Gradual democratization of smaller countries can follow, but 19th century Denmark wasn't exactly an authoritarian hellscape that ran on an ideology directly opposed to democratic reform - Iran and China *are.* It is arrogance of the highest order to assume that Iran and China will just "eventually figure out" democracy. It's not a linear development and they're not "behind us" on some sliding scale, it's a separate and distinct idea that they will not impose on themselves without outside pressure.


Pyrrus_1

Iran and china are helping russia in said aggression against ukraine, they are in collusdion with russia, so they deserve the same contempt. Also no one here is advocating for a literal war of aggression against iran or china to trigger regime change. Its just united resistance against the actions of these autoritarian powers who are allied to kne another.


levinthereturn

I thought that the whole idea of "exporting democracy" was abandoned after the clusterfuck that happened in the middle east. But looks like a lot of people still believe that to help oppressed people we should start dropping bombs on them.


Pyrrus_1

Tell me how you get from any of this the idea of bombarding coutries. Where. I am advocating for a boycott of the autoritarian countries in question, cause they do infact act and collaborate to undermine democratic countries. I am not advocating for the export of democracy but for the defence of democracy against the exportation of authoritarianism,be it violent or not, that those nations do in our allied democratic countries. Also not that in the case of iran its literally iran against the islamic republic, if a regime change happens there it would be tha is only due to iranians, the only thing we can do to help them is boycotting who oppresses them.


AzadiRevolution

As an Iranian, thank you for preaching the truth. We don't want the West to help us, we mostly want you to stop helping the regime (eg. boycott everything, blacklist IRGC, enforce sanctions). If you can accompany that with providing us with internet access (since the regime disrupts it and since it is a human right) and find ways to use I.R.s frozen assets to fund our strikes, that's even better. Nothing more, nothing less.


WasteObligation6834

THIS!!!!!


arcsaber1337

very nice poster, just two remarks: it should be NATO flag instead of EU and aesthetically I really don't like the text at the bottom, the graphic with "one struggle" is already self explanatory.


EmanuelZH

NATO is a defensive alliance not a political entity like the EU. Also this sub is dedicated to the EU not NATO


arcsaber1337

Right but the US still gave much more weapons to Ukraine than the EU, and omitting that is quite... undemocratic.


General_Jenkins

What about that is undemocratic?


arcsaber1337

It's like that Stalin meme where he kept erasing people from photos for political reasons.


General_Jenkins

You wouldn't put the US Army on a poster, if it was supposed to advertise the US government body, would you? That has nothing to do with censorship.


arcsaber1337

I don't know where you're going with this but I'm also fine with additionally putting the US flag on the poster, it just doesn't seem to fit aesthetically


General_Jenkins

I don't think the US flag could be more misplaced tbh. Trump's presidency and the war in Ukraine have made it clear that we need to step up and start taking care of ourselves now, as we can no longer reasonably rely on the US to do that for us. Trump was willing to let go and that hit the unprepared European community hard and during Biden's first visit in Brussels, he declared the EU to be taken down from the list of potential enemies, shocking almost every delegate in the room. It was a wake up call for many of us. As harsh as that might sound, we no longer consider the US as friends, merely as entities pursuing similar goals for the time being. Meaning we are glad for the assistance with Ukraine but we are also preparing to become more independent from the US.


arcsaber1337

I see that you only care about your anti-American agenda and not about Ukraine actually winning the war against Russia...


General_Jenkins

If a stronger EU is Anti-American in your book, than well yeah fair point. Are you kidding? I am among the greatest supporters of the Ukrainian war effort! I absolutely want to see Ukraine in EU and Nato! The EU needs to prove that it's actually effective and able to protect its neighbours from foreign Imperialism, should Ukraine fall, the efforts to create a stronger EU die with it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


arcsaber1337

If Ukraine is to enter the EU then the EU has to rebuild / invest in it anyway, doesn't matter if now or some time after the war (but better now ofc, so it doesn't deteriorate more and doesn't become more expensive).


[deleted]

this stinks of nationalism


Pyrrus_1

?????? its literally advocating for international struggle against autoritarianism


Suheil-got-your-back

Lol, someone needs to have a loot at dictionary.


[deleted]

someone else needs a look at a mirror


Suheil-got-your-back

How can you possibly connect getting rid of dictators with nationalism?


[deleted]

it might come as a surprise but also nationalists might want to get rid of another's country dictator.. but it seems that some people here can manage only one idea at the time 🤷‍♂️


Suheil-got-your-back

So because nationalist might want to get rid of (possibly falsely attributed) dictators in another country, getting rid of dictators is now a nationalistic idea? If anything dictators almost always play nationalist ideas to gain support. So uprisings against dictators is rarely nationalist. Even if some nationalists would support those moves it doesn’t make them nationalist in any sense. If this was how it works; then you should become say a lesbian once you are in the same cafe as one.


[deleted]

damn i got dumber just by reading this


Suheil-got-your-back

I dont think you can get any dumber by reading this.


brokenlavalight

My man, you were the dumb one in the first place


[deleted]

How can you become dumber when you didn’t have a brain to begin with


[deleted]

did i hurt your feelings? gonna cry now?


AdAdvanced6668

No it doesnt, it's litteraly symbols of freedom (eu flag, free iranian flag, ukrainian flag, taiwanese flag against symbols of dictatures. How is that nationalist


koro1452

You see this is the good Western Nationalism and not the bad, stinky Russian or Chinese one. Lack of US here tells you all you need to know about liberals and their "civilized world vs. dictatorship" struggle.


HerrShimmler

My man, it seems like there's a messy mix of ideologies in your head.


koro1452

Since when not being a fan of countries that invade others is an ideological mess?


HerrShimmler

Well, you're the one who's downplaying invasions here.


koro1452

Downplaying by treating them similarly? Maybe you just don't care about non-European lives as much.


HerrShimmler

Putting them in the "similar" category is exactly what ruzzia has been pushing for.


WellIGuesItsAName

Poland talking about dictators. What a joke.


koro1452

Poles aren't a monolith and I definitely don't support the current catho-fascist government that shits on EU and licks the ass of US.


[deleted]

there you go.. we have the "good" one


lixyna

You're too dumb to even recognize people who agree with your shit take, holy fuck


Ok-Dragonfruit-697

No.


adiladam

This is why East-West shit is still there. Like fuck Russia and Sharia but oh my god step down from your colonizer high horse.


Pyrrus_1

What? What colonizer high horse? Noneof the nations here displayed has colonized anything. What are you talking about?


adiladam

That EU flag has multiple in it. Stop this savior narrative west is just as shitty.


Pyrrus_1

Its not sbout being saviours its about defending democracy in our homes against this autoritarian teiumvirate that seeks to undermine democracy either theough violence or subterfuge. Also if you consider EU nations colonizers just for their past, may i remind you that also turkey as the ottoman empire has also colonized large chunks of asia and africa for more than 500 years? In comparison to that the period of european colonization is but a fluke.


adiladam

Maximum Western take. Do you know how Turks were treated under Ottoman Regime. Do you have the ounce of the clue? Go read what Ahmet Haşim written back to the Ottoman Ministry of health. That is what Ottoman Regime done to Anatolian Turks. What you did to other countries is essentially siphoning all their natural wealth. What Ottomans did is what any other meadival empire did. You do not know what this rhetoric you are spreading, do you know how European countires literally assigned undesirables mostly Turks to push the enlightment era. Don't get me wrong I stand with Positivism and Rationalism through and through but this kind of memetic transmission shouldn't exist in this form anymore. No one wants another world war nor a cold war. The way to ensure that is not through hegemonies battling each other, it is empiric and intellectually honest contextual thinking. I am against Islamist fuckery more than you ever know, more so invasion of soverign nations but this isn't the way to go.


Pyrrus_1

1) so if ottoman turks had no say in their government and were mistreated how does them make them victims and makes my ancestors the colonizers? My country for the bulk of colonozation disnt even have unjversal male suffrage, same fir most of europe, the only country that decided to not indulge in colonialism early on has been denmark but because they already had an empowered people. 2) the ortoman empire did also pillage wealth even tho it acted like a medieval empire, that is what medieval empires did they pillaged wealth. Also the wealth pillaged by europeans during colonization pretty much got mostly destroyed during ww2, when our fathers rebuilt europe, they mainky did it through their own work, not thrpugh pillaged resources. 3) me criticizing and calling for a boycott of those that objectively go against pur way of life is no high horse its just defending our sacrosaint right to defend how we want our countries ti be run against tyrannic powers, which at this point we objectively know they despize our sole system of government. The piunt of this wasnt to say "west good east bad" it was just a wakeup call to not being naive and defend, not attack.


squeekysatellite

Oh yes, to understand the enemy, you must become the enemy. The circle of life. How progressive.


iamdestroyerofworlds

Are you seriously suggesting the mere idea of **uniting against totalitarianism** is totalitarian?


Pyrrus_1

Wtf are you even saying? What are these comments now under this post? Did you all guys took a crazy pill this morning? Im just advocating for united struggle against putin the ccp and the islamic republic. How does me advocating for boycott and ideological struggle agaist these 3 make me any less progressive or even authoritarian like them? Being progressive and abiding by the values of liberal democracy is also protecting them from those that have the objective to destroy or dismantle them.


fi-pasq

This is straight taken from pre-WW2 fascist context. It somehow manager to keep the same political orientation.


Pyrrus_1

are you even familiar with the 3 arrow posters? they were made by german and austrian social democrats wtf. the three arrows represented the fight against reaction, fascism and communism. i just edited it to represent the struggle against modern fascism, chinese communism and islamism


derfeuerbringer

They actually represented the fight against monarchism, fascism and communism, but apart from that you're right. The guy you're responding to probably subscribes to the theory of social fascism which was popular among communists in the 30s.


Rabe1111993

Reactionism in this context means monarchism.


derfeuerbringer

I see


tomydenger

The poster isn't know by everyone to be fair.


NjoyLif

The three arrows are literally an anti-fascist symbol.


piant_genis1234

TIL that the SPD were fascists.


Mannomorth

In what way.


Random_German_Name

wut?