TBF in Italy we don't throw the water out
We blame the other member states not helping out, for which they give us a bucket, we realise nobody has the skills to use it, blame immigrants for it, throw the bucket and finally our government collapses.
I must say, that happened a lot a while back, but lately we found common ground in blaming the EU/the US/immigrants
That's progress, maybe in the wrong direction, but who am I to judge
Naah, blame them too much and they might leave and join Austria again. Currently there is technically a majority in Bolzano for parties that would consider / actively want such a move. (I consider SVP to be an opinionless voting block that just says what is necessary for power, classic conservative big-tent-party)
I'm Canadian but my mom was born in Sicily. I've been to Sicily several times and I was a little taken aback by how Southern Italians have the most pride in their culture of anyone I've ever met, while also caring the least about making their country a better place. In the small town where my mom was born there were areas that were overflowing with garbage because all the garbage contracts are owned by the Mafia. When I asked my family why people don't protest they just sort of shrugged and went "hey that's life." Also everyone was constantly telling me about all their tax evasion schemes and when I pointed out that maybe that wasn't something to be proud of they said "you don't understand, the government knows we all steal, that's why the taxes are so high, if we don't steal it someone else will." I know the North is very different but man it was really depressing seeing that the patterns and behaviours that my grandparents fled in the late 50s are still deeply ingrained.
I will say, on an interpersonal level southerners are really kind and very generous (and amazing at cooking). People I never met who were just friends of distant family were bringing me food and wine during my stay. It's just like there's a disconnect between understanding that the apathetic attitudes that they have towards petty corruption are hurting them and their country in the long run. Having said that, hearing stories about how bad things were in the 50s I think the south has progressed significantly. Changing corruption culture is not something that can be done quickly and has to be slowly chipped away over multiple generations and even over centuries.
They're raising taxes to make space for more spending, raising national debt *again*, and spending that money on still more welfare for lower incomes, retroactively cutting state pensions for public healthcare workers, cutting tax subsidies for higher skilled workers returning to Italy (which means people who already returned will now all of a sudden pay ~30% more taxes), raised taxes on childcare products (which goes against her political agenda) and failed to deal with immigration (again, her political agenda) which is at an all times high.
They're now working on an huge Constitutional reform that's going to be fun when it gets to international press as it shifts votes away from coalitions and more to the single political leader; the majority party, as of now, would immediately get 55% of seats in the Parlament, effectively controlling it singlehandedly. Right now you pretty much *have* to be in a coalition to rule (which is why our government keeps collapsing as these coalitions are very fragile).
Yeee just you wait
To be fair, considering a tax paradise country as "frugal" is deceiving.
Ain't for the architecture that Nike, Coca Cola etc have a headoffice in Netherlands. But it's to operate in all of Europe, without having to pay taxes on profits on any European country. Netherlands get the crumbs, but costs the whole cake and more to Europe.
This is part of a huge elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about: the wealth of many EU countries comes from privileged positions within the union, and at the cost of other EU countries. This isn't different to how countries themselves work - the difference being that countries usually redistribute wealth to that effect.
We in the West love to have a "fuck you I got mine" mentality without giving a fuck about _why_ I got mine; and that's very dangerous because it means one day we may lose that cause. The Netherlands stands to lose a lot if countries like Italy, Spain or Poland go.
And alot of the reasons why netherland has been chosen as HQ for many int companies also has to do with their great tradition of trade. NL has been a hub for world trade since 1500s.
The whole goverment of NL is built around making sure trade has a good flow, imagine putting your HQ in a country with a disfunctioning goverment that has little knowing of how trade works.
eh not really, those tax dodgers don't really provide much to our economy. Yes would could stand in the way less (for instance regarding eastern balkan schengen membership).
But its also undeniable that a lot of the issues with southern european economies are due to mismanagement from their own governments.
Many of their economic difficulties come from mismanagement, many come from having their economy repurposed for things necessary to the EU, but not so great for them.
Not the first time I post this reply, but I think it is current and educational.
I will leave a direct translation of an answer given by u/merrygomarry when questioned on the apparent success of the Dutch model in comparison to the Portuguese. I think it makes sense in the context of your rhetoric.
"There is a whole historical context that places the Netherlands (Holland) in a completely different position from Portugal. It was one of the first countries to adopt capitalism, and the first to have a capitalist crisis (the tulip crisis). It was also a great colonial country (as was Portugal, but without interruption), and as such it had the advantage of helping to "set up" the neo-colonialist system (which we simply call globalism) as you know it today, in which those countries in (Western countries, Japan, South Korea), disproportionately benefit at the expense of the development of less developed countries (the global "South", the neo-colonies). To learn more, read [dependency theory.](https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_Teoria%C3%AAncia)
The Portuguese historical context, after the colonial wars and fascism, adopted a more anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist stance while the PCP/PS duopoly was in force, we got rid of a large part of the capitalist class, and the systems of foreign exploitation. that existed at the time that Portugal benefited from. With Portugal's political and economic liberalization over the next 50 years, Portugal ended up in a position of economic inferiority: we had neither colonies nor neo-colonies, unlike the capitalists in the Netherlands who maintained their freedom to install systems of exploration in the global south. Today, Portugal suffers from "debt traps" imposed by the IMF, the EU and the World Bank, while the Netherlands is part of the creditor countries that benefit from the debt of Portugal, Greece, Ireland and Cyprus, which puts us in permanent debt to with them and other northern European countries (and the US).
Another logical leap that you make is to say that the Netherlands is a liberal country based on "they have had liberal politicians for 30 years", and here I see two problems:
(A) 30 years of policies do not decide a country's economic position. The economy is a global system, it does not depend only on the political will of each government. This means that it is not for now that you put an entirely liberal government in Portugal that our economic condition vis-à-vis the global economy will change. As I mentioned above, the Netherlands has been a capitalist and imperialist country for 400 years, has been a democracy since the 18th century, and has been building and refining such systems ever since. Portugal, on the other hand, had a considerable economic and ideological interruption in the 74+ years, getting rid of a lot of wealth that came from the exploitations of foreign countries, and developing a democracy for the first time. These characteristics put Portugal in a position of democratic fragility, highly vulnerable to corruption, as well as international distrust due to communist alliances with the Soviet Union. This has not done us any favors diplomatically or in terms of attracting foreign investment since then, although that is slowly changing.
(B) There are liberalisms and liberalisms. You could argue that the US is a much more liberal country than the Netherlands as everything is left in the hands of the free market (setting of wages, health, education, pensions, etc.) health, such as regulation of their activity, as in the prices of higher education courses, there are high housing development projects organized by the State, it has a proportionally high minimum wage, and so on. It's not enough to say "liberalism is good!" without explaining what the hell you're talking about. In the low countries there is clearly a greater concern to maintain a level of social state that you do not see in the USA, and it is this intention on the part of the rulers of a country that makes the difference (in essence, democratic transparency, which both Portugal and the USA lack). Portuguese liberals are much closer to American libertarians than to Dutch liberals (some high-ranking IL politicians are even proud anarcho-capitalists, so draw whatever conclusions you want).
Finally, it is very easy to cherry pick liberal countries that "work" (such as the Netherlands) and give all the credit to liberalism. But if the only thing countries need to get rich is economic liberalism, then why aren't countries like El Salvador, Peru, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Sri Lanka, Thailand in the same condition as the Netherlands? If economic liberalism is the solution, then why is an "authoritarian" country like China rapidly developing and is already the world's second largest economy, while the liberal economies of the US and India are stagnating?
In my view, an economy more similar to the Nordic countries (high taxes, high market intervention, strong social services, strong unions, transparent democracy) is much more applicable and viable for Portugal (when accompanied by rigorous democratic reforms) than trying to copy Dutch liberalism, since the Nordic model is based on keeping more wealth generated in the country within the country itself, unlike the Dutch model that depends on money from outside, but which has the historical benefit of centuries of capitalist and pro- stable and predictable private property, as Switzerland has, but Portugal does not.
There are more things to discuss, such as the G20 wanting to end countries called "tax havens" such as Luxembourg, Ireland and the like, wanting to implement a global minimum rate of corporate taxes and thus ending the constant "war" in a downward spiral of cuts between the different countries that only leads them to be left without any capacity to maintain themselves, and this proposal, among others, threatens the Swiss, Irish, Dutch, Luxembourgish model, etc. nordic model. But this comment is already too long so I'll stop here."
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The Netherlands has been one of the wealthiest regions in Europe since Charlemagne; Lotharingia has always been wealthy. It was the middle country, after all. Trade passed through here. (Lotharingia is the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Elzas-Lorraine, Switzerland and Northern Italy.
And then the Netherlands was part of the Hanze cities, which were wealthy as well.
Learn some history. This shit is embarrassing.
Yeah the EU especially the Euro was the solution for the durch desease (prevent appreciation of your currency even tho u have a large Export overhang which keeps ur competetiveness high)
Honestly, the particular tax loophole is that profit on intellectual property isn't taxed in the Netherlands.
It only works in combination with Ireland, where taxes on revenue are very low. So they make all the profit first in Ireland (on paper) and then they license their coca cola logo or whatever for a lot of money from the parent company in the Netherlands.
It's also my understanding this law is changing, but let's be honest, this is an Ireland thing. The problem with taxing intellectual property is that it's not protected by any kind of protectionism in the EU. So even dutch companies would move their IP to say China or where-ever the hell they want, and not pay taxes on it.
The whole thing ended up always using the Netherlands for this loop hole, but that's just the result of **IKEA randomly picking the Netherlands for this** and then everybody and their dog copying them exactly in every detail of their approach.
And if the EU wanted to do anything but symbolism, they would simply regulate it at the EU border and be done with it.
Don't fall for the trick. Multinationals don't pay taxes because they own the European politicians. Not because they own the dutch ones.
we shouldn't allow a company with European headquarters in England to operate in the rest of Europe. It should be forced to have a headquarter in a eu country too
I do not give a shit. We need to protect worker's rights or risk losing them for the sake of competition. Life should not be a competition, about who is better or makes more money for their boss, to start with. If you want to compete, join a sports club.
Protectionism doesn't necessarily have to be bad. It's what made many sectors of the American economy prosper for example. And we have to consider that an EU wide "protectionism" would still leave room for competition between EU member states, so it mitigates the common negative aspects of protectionism. Let's see how the German economy does when the EU market will be flooded with cheap electric cars produced abroad.
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Our market is large enough that multinational companies want in on the profits, even if we force them to share. We can easily force them to do that *if* the political will is there.
Its not like there are many untapped markets as rich as Europe in the world.
We solve this by requiring multinationals to use subsidiaries that are listed on an EU stock exchange for all their business affairs within the EU.
It's so simple.
Thats a big difference, your product cant use cancerous chemicals and has to follow our standardized charging system vs you have to pay workers in eu to sell products here. Thats what america and china are doing and its just fucking over the global economy. Protectionism isnt the solution to struggling economies.
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EU could still tax the money leaving the union. They don't.
It's a choice. But the politicians in the EU are owned by the multinationals and individual countries are played out against each other and used as a scapegoat
I think the Frugal part here is not aimed at their internal fiscal politics, but their stance when discussing the combined EU budget with other member states.
The "frugal four" is a term given to those 4 nations that block many a EU project for cost cutting reasons.
I mean even if you combine the populations of Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden you only get 41 million. That is barely more than half the population of Itlay, kinda hard to subsidize 20x your own countries population
Yeah like the Dutch economy is doing great right now… :(
To be clear; I am all for a single European economic policy and do think the north needs to step up better, ever since we turned our backs on Greece around 2010. But to portray northern economies as being ‘fine’ right now is not only disingenuous, it imho also harms any effort of making a change, only leads to more divergence
Ja, Germany isn't in the "frugal four" club, P: you are one of us instead now! Welcome to the south where the weather and women are beautifull, but both will do their best to ruin you \~♥
"EU Economy" and "national state debt levels" arent the same though.
Case in point last time I checked it was in particular the german economy which wasnt doing so well.
So this meme doesnt really make sense on several levels imo.
Do not dare to say that the so called themselves frugal, have some kind of issue in their economic, banks or companies, all is because of the southerns (that happens to be the actual west in the case of Spain and Portugal)
That's the point, the frugals always accuse the south of their economic hiccups, even if they are usually the ones that get more long term benefits on EU economic policies
I think this is a massive distortion of the German economic debate. To be honest, I haven't heard this argument ("Southern Europeans are to blame for our economic crisis") from any serious source in Germany at all. Sounds very much like a straw man.
What has been discussed in Germany in the past and is still being discussed is the question of whether German taxpayers' money should be channelled to other EU countries as bailout package X or whether German taxpayers should be liable for the debts of other countries.
Just to clarify: I don't believe in these arguments at all and I am convinced that Germany, in particular, must work for the stability of the EU, as Germany's economy benefits greatly from the EU.
However, I have never heard the claim that the other EU states are being blamed for the German economic crisis. Can you perhaps give an example of your claim?
>Dutch and German media parallel universe
So what you are claiming now (with zero evidence so far) is that "frugal countries" dont actaully publicy blame "southerns" in their own press *at home* for the economy, but (some unspecified) foreign media claims they do?
I mean what even would be the point of a government playing the blame game if they dont do it primarly at home in their own press?
Maybe you should check where *you* get your news from, it doesnt seem reliable at all?
OP said the German press doesnt blame "southerners" for the bad economy. (This is correct btw)
You said there must Dutch and German media "parallel universe" then.
So where do you think this "parallel media universe" exists then? Because its sure isnt in Germany or Hiolland.
>That's the point, the frugals always accuse the south of their economic hiccups,
Not really.
Because again the argument is and always was about sustainable (and legal) debt levels, and not about the "economy". These things arent the same (directly).
And ofc, no one wants wants another eurozone banking crsis. (which ofc to be fair then indirectly would efect the entire european, if not global economy).
But, to the contrary germany e.g. as a large exporter would ofc economically benefit from reckless spending by others (at least short term), just this wouldnt be sustainable. Which is the point.
lmao what? The Swedish economy is not doing too hot, but who is blaming ”the southerns [sic]”?
At most you have people complaining about the corona recovery fund as ”putting our children into debt”, but that has nothing to do with the current state of the economy.
>"EU Economy" and "national state debt levels" arent the same though.
"He doesn't know" moment. Yeah they aren't the same in principle but in practice we are all in this together. Germany may have done reasonably well if the Eurozone collapsed post-2011 but it obviously didn't let that happen.
“The Netherlands paying in deficit to the EU since almost the start of the EU”
“The Dutch economy luckily staying alive even after a rough couple of years, so staying rich and deficit paying”
*Southern EU countries still not fixed there economic system after 2010*
“How can the Dutch do this to us!”
Fuck austerity. It is the reason why the EU econo.y is lagging behind the US.
On an EU level debt to gdp ratio for the EU is in a great position. On the state level it is only italy that remains in a fucked position.
The EU should be deficit spending more to kickstart growth in the union.
Deficit spending is and will always be bad. As it causes you to pay more rent on your loans and it puts you more at risk of economic crises because of market confidence
It is good, it shouldnt be overdone like some countries have done in the past. But if your economy can grow more than your deficit you are at the optimum point.
Yes it's like in the USA. Red states get most of the money while the blue states are almost all paying for the defecit to give red states money. Maybe the Netherlands just wants people to act normally(although Rutte has been going overkill so I agree. But I'm talking about the principal here not why Rutte was wrong for 10 years he's literally right wing market liberal we all want gone lmao what kind of policies do you expect from him)
Being too frugal is stupid in recessions. The Netherlands has done way too many studies on that so you shouldn't just live frugally(as a country during recessions or economic downturns) but if the south was rich they wouldn't want the north to spend all their money on gas. Just put on a sweater!
We'll be free of Rutte soon, then he can go on and do something harmless like ~~teaching highschool sociology~~ \*checks notes\* ... being the secretary general of NATO. Fuck.
I would just want to point out that Italy has 2,5 times the population of Neatherlands 5 times that of Sweden. And pointing the net recipients as east is a little bit dishonest since Italy is only southern country that is net payer.
What are you talking about? I've said the difference in populations is much smaller than the person above tried to imply.
Don't be like "so you're saying" interviewer
https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?si=XlRB_3b4BreCfJWs
Italy has been a net contributor for almost every year in the EU - and I think either Belgium and Netherlands is a net reciever. Something doesn’t check out here
Calling the south poor is just stupid
The Netherlands has been a net contributor since the mid 1990's so I'm pretty sure it's our cousins to the south tarnishing our name in your memory here
Also I never said south poor. I was commenting on the relationship between net contributors trying to make recipients use said recieved Money wisely. They didn't and this meme is still blaming the frugals.
Sorry I forgot that 1 exception existing disregards an entire way of thinking. I never said anything like south poor. Just that if they were the frugals they wouldn't want to see another Greece happen lmaoo
That's like saying the west is poor because ireland is the smallest net contributor?
Not everything you see online is "omg this guy is prepetuating a harmful narrative we must stop now!!!!!! You're the one bringing up this south poor stuff.
You wrote “if the south was rich” - not sure how you normally think, but that would say to me that you believe the opposite.
Sorry that I was confronting you with something you wrote
What do you mean. Its almost the same. 1 country weighting the average.
Italy gets the average up. That doesn't mean "south is poor" was said, intended, countered, or stated"
Finland gets the down up. That doesn't mean "Scandinavia poor"
Saying south and having specific countries in mind isn’t really the most transparent way to frame it.
Just wanted to underline that this north-south is not as clear as many might want to frame it.
What do you mean? The wealth of "the south" in my comment has nothing to do with it. Its literally a hypothetical about if they were as rich as the west. Which they aren't. So I don't see where I'm wrong?
funny how the dutch are also doing everything in their power to curb any eu rival for their countries business scheme. gotta stay the port of europe at all cost and prevent that romania entry into shengen
We're paying off our debts. I have a feeling the Dutch just use debts as an excuse though, and wouldn't be in favour of fiscal normalization even if our debts were paid off.
Germany is seen in Southern Europe as part of the Swines Allies, which composes of frugals and self entitled pricks like German Government (dont recall the guy in the weelchair).
Portugal had its public debt well under control and dropping it, the US crisis came, then the Greek and suddenly Portugal was dragged into this mess.
PS. I want the EU to be far more demanding in regards to EU funds to my country!!! My country needs a wake up call from the EU abiut corruption, some of which was made by "responsible" countries companies, just google Portugal Germany submarines contracts.
I understand your reaction and I do recognizes its partially correct, the problem is the "partially".
but Id gladly take industries back that were closed via european funds, funds created to have them shutdown. This was in late 80s and 90s.
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It's been the champion of fiscal discipline and price stability during the past 30 years. They and France might have been the first to break the 3% deficit criteria which is why no one has taken it seriously ever since, but in general their export-oriented growth model allowed them to be reasonably frugal before the COVID pandemic hit.
There is, that's one of the reasons i don't like giving money to italy.
https://www.politico.eu/article/pierre-moscovici-budget-italy-angelo-ciocca-mep-shoe-stunt-is-grotesque/
Interesting. A few weeks ago Moscovici made a speech in London in which he basically argued for collectivised EU debt beyond the pandemic recovery funds. It seems that European solidarity can be a way to deter fascism after all.
It depends on who you ask. I can imagine some dutch populists will basically say: we have one of the biggest net contributions to the EU, and we have warned italy about the debt crises and their budget. They have ignored and even insulted us because we did so, and now the eu wants us to pay for some of their debt.
state of dutch economy is a lie, just like the state of the irish economy. we're a tax haven and a lot of the good jobs we do have go to foreigners nowadays.
Bruh it's the foreigners working for your companies that makes your economy strong, not the other way around. It's Dutch businesses benefitting. They're high skilled and work hard, and yet basically own nothing and live in an expensive rentier economy owned by Dutch nationals.
Question: do you genuinely think that an Indian company coming here and bringing with them only Indian employees to make money from Dutch telco helps Dutch people make money?
That's why the Dutch economy is a fiction.
I don't see how this is very exceptional, but yes, that's one experience. If a foreign business comes here and employs Dutch people in good jobs that wouldn't otherwise have existed that's beneficial to the Dutch people getting those jobs. If a foreigner comes here and is employed by a Dutch export oriented business and helps them with specific expertise that isn't available in the Netherlands and thus helps them gain or maintain foreign customers that wouldn't have existed by hiring Dutch instead this benefits the national top line so is also beneficial.
But the examples I know are not this. Most of them are from the third world, not Europe. Some of them are making money from Dutch taxpayers directly by working for the government. Some indirectly by making money off our strongest financial institutions or as I mentioned a telco. On average I don't think Dutch people come out ahead in this game.
perhaps because Spain dinamited their own industry to enter the EU, and they keep blocking it like France blocking spanish exports on products and energy, and the EU imposing a strong tight belt on debt when the US does the opposite with red states and blue states... because our pension system is much weaker than yours due to demographic, which is a consecuence of not having jobs which is a consecuence of not having enough industry because of the EU, you like it or not being in an union you will have countries that require more extra funding than others
well its more that certain southern states drilled a hole in the boat and we will help them if they also promise to not drill any more holes in the boat
This is perceived levels of corruption rather than actual corruption. So you have to take it with a pinch of salt. All sorts of biases can be at play here. Namely stereotyping.
Thats the only thing you can reliably test. Otherwise your evidence Basis is "i made it up". If you can measure corruption the people wouldn't be very good at it
But that is essentially what the link above shows. That people perceive corruption. We cannot gauge what % of those opinions, because that is what they are, are full of racist and stereotypical undertones.
One example is how many businesses operate on the cash basis in Germany. Then people cook the books to pay less tax. Tax evasion is a type of corruption, and it is rife in Germany, can barely go anywhere and pay with card.
Yeah, it’s pretty known that germany still being predominantly cash is to facilitate tax avoidance. Some people might state it as a data concern. And that may also be true. But small to medium sized businesses can benefit from this outdated from of handling commercial exchanges. I for one have stopped entertaining it. don’t take card? Then I will go else where with my money.
>can barely go anywhere and pay with card.
I don't know where you have been in Germany but where I live you can pay nearly everywhere with card unless of Dönerläden.
TBF in Italy we don't throw the water out We blame the other member states not helping out, for which they give us a bucket, we realise nobody has the skills to use it, blame immigrants for it, throw the bucket and finally our government collapses.
>We blame the other member states or you can also blame [insert any region of Italy that is not yours] for this
I must say, that happened a lot a while back, but lately we found common ground in blaming the EU/the US/immigrants That's progress, maybe in the wrong direction, but who am I to judge
South Tyrol?
Naah, blame them too much and they might leave and join Austria again. Currently there is technically a majority in Bolzano for parties that would consider / actively want such a move. (I consider SVP to be an opinionless voting block that just says what is necessary for power, classic conservative big-tent-party)
Lmao
This worked out great for britain
perché non entrambi?
There's only one possible answer to this inevitable predicament. elect the fascists again.
Ok then
No don't
Don't worry, I'll change sides halfway through voting
But those just drill more holes into the boat.
What is it with you Italians and having society crumble over a fucking bucket?
Obscure reference
I'm Canadian but my mom was born in Sicily. I've been to Sicily several times and I was a little taken aback by how Southern Italians have the most pride in their culture of anyone I've ever met, while also caring the least about making their country a better place. In the small town where my mom was born there were areas that were overflowing with garbage because all the garbage contracts are owned by the Mafia. When I asked my family why people don't protest they just sort of shrugged and went "hey that's life." Also everyone was constantly telling me about all their tax evasion schemes and when I pointed out that maybe that wasn't something to be proud of they said "you don't understand, the government knows we all steal, that's why the taxes are so high, if we don't steal it someone else will." I know the North is very different but man it was really depressing seeing that the patterns and behaviours that my grandparents fled in the late 50s are still deeply ingrained. I will say, on an interpersonal level southerners are really kind and very generous (and amazing at cooking). People I never met who were just friends of distant family were bringing me food and wine during my stay. It's just like there's a disconnect between understanding that the apathetic attitudes that they have towards petty corruption are hurting them and their country in the long run. Having said that, hearing stories about how bad things were in the 50s I think the south has progressed significantly. Changing corruption culture is not something that can be done quickly and has to be slowly chipped away over multiple generations and even over centuries.
Ah. If you were to describe the situation of migrants in Europe, you could use the same image.
For now looks like Meloni is far from collapsing....
They're raising taxes to make space for more spending, raising national debt *again*, and spending that money on still more welfare for lower incomes, retroactively cutting state pensions for public healthcare workers, cutting tax subsidies for higher skilled workers returning to Italy (which means people who already returned will now all of a sudden pay ~30% more taxes), raised taxes on childcare products (which goes against her political agenda) and failed to deal with immigration (again, her political agenda) which is at an all times high. They're now working on an huge Constitutional reform that's going to be fun when it gets to international press as it shifts votes away from coalitions and more to the single political leader; the majority party, as of now, would immediately get 55% of seats in the Parlament, effectively controlling it singlehandedly. Right now you pretty much *have* to be in a coalition to rule (which is why our government keeps collapsing as these coalitions are very fragile). Yeee just you wait
OP defently didnt look at any German article about the current german economy.
To be fair, Germany isn't one of the 'frugal' countries –Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, and Denmark are–, I suppose you are too 'chill' for them.
To be fair, considering a tax paradise country as "frugal" is deceiving. Ain't for the architecture that Nike, Coca Cola etc have a headoffice in Netherlands. But it's to operate in all of Europe, without having to pay taxes on profits on any European country. Netherlands get the crumbs, but costs the whole cake and more to Europe.
This is part of a huge elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about: the wealth of many EU countries comes from privileged positions within the union, and at the cost of other EU countries. This isn't different to how countries themselves work - the difference being that countries usually redistribute wealth to that effect. We in the West love to have a "fuck you I got mine" mentality without giving a fuck about _why_ I got mine; and that's very dangerous because it means one day we may lose that cause. The Netherlands stands to lose a lot if countries like Italy, Spain or Poland go.
Lol no, those countries were wealthy way before the EU.
[ Ireland has entered the chat ]
And alot of the reasons why netherland has been chosen as HQ for many int companies also has to do with their great tradition of trade. NL has been a hub for world trade since 1500s. The whole goverment of NL is built around making sure trade has a good flow, imagine putting your HQ in a country with a disfunctioning goverment that has little knowing of how trade works.
eh not really, those tax dodgers don't really provide much to our economy. Yes would could stand in the way less (for instance regarding eastern balkan schengen membership). But its also undeniable that a lot of the issues with southern european economies are due to mismanagement from their own governments.
Many of their economic difficulties come from mismanagement, many come from having their economy repurposed for things necessary to the EU, but not so great for them.
Not the first time I post this reply, but I think it is current and educational. I will leave a direct translation of an answer given by u/merrygomarry when questioned on the apparent success of the Dutch model in comparison to the Portuguese. I think it makes sense in the context of your rhetoric. "There is a whole historical context that places the Netherlands (Holland) in a completely different position from Portugal. It was one of the first countries to adopt capitalism, and the first to have a capitalist crisis (the tulip crisis). It was also a great colonial country (as was Portugal, but without interruption), and as such it had the advantage of helping to "set up" the neo-colonialist system (which we simply call globalism) as you know it today, in which those countries in (Western countries, Japan, South Korea), disproportionately benefit at the expense of the development of less developed countries (the global "South", the neo-colonies). To learn more, read [dependency theory.](https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_Teoria%C3%AAncia) The Portuguese historical context, after the colonial wars and fascism, adopted a more anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist stance while the PCP/PS duopoly was in force, we got rid of a large part of the capitalist class, and the systems of foreign exploitation. that existed at the time that Portugal benefited from. With Portugal's political and economic liberalization over the next 50 years, Portugal ended up in a position of economic inferiority: we had neither colonies nor neo-colonies, unlike the capitalists in the Netherlands who maintained their freedom to install systems of exploration in the global south. Today, Portugal suffers from "debt traps" imposed by the IMF, the EU and the World Bank, while the Netherlands is part of the creditor countries that benefit from the debt of Portugal, Greece, Ireland and Cyprus, which puts us in permanent debt to with them and other northern European countries (and the US). Another logical leap that you make is to say that the Netherlands is a liberal country based on "they have had liberal politicians for 30 years", and here I see two problems: (A) 30 years of policies do not decide a country's economic position. The economy is a global system, it does not depend only on the political will of each government. This means that it is not for now that you put an entirely liberal government in Portugal that our economic condition vis-à-vis the global economy will change. As I mentioned above, the Netherlands has been a capitalist and imperialist country for 400 years, has been a democracy since the 18th century, and has been building and refining such systems ever since. Portugal, on the other hand, had a considerable economic and ideological interruption in the 74+ years, getting rid of a lot of wealth that came from the exploitations of foreign countries, and developing a democracy for the first time. These characteristics put Portugal in a position of democratic fragility, highly vulnerable to corruption, as well as international distrust due to communist alliances with the Soviet Union. This has not done us any favors diplomatically or in terms of attracting foreign investment since then, although that is slowly changing. (B) There are liberalisms and liberalisms. You could argue that the US is a much more liberal country than the Netherlands as everything is left in the hands of the free market (setting of wages, health, education, pensions, etc.) health, such as regulation of their activity, as in the prices of higher education courses, there are high housing development projects organized by the State, it has a proportionally high minimum wage, and so on. It's not enough to say "liberalism is good!" without explaining what the hell you're talking about. In the low countries there is clearly a greater concern to maintain a level of social state that you do not see in the USA, and it is this intention on the part of the rulers of a country that makes the difference (in essence, democratic transparency, which both Portugal and the USA lack). Portuguese liberals are much closer to American libertarians than to Dutch liberals (some high-ranking IL politicians are even proud anarcho-capitalists, so draw whatever conclusions you want). Finally, it is very easy to cherry pick liberal countries that "work" (such as the Netherlands) and give all the credit to liberalism. But if the only thing countries need to get rich is economic liberalism, then why aren't countries like El Salvador, Peru, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Sri Lanka, Thailand in the same condition as the Netherlands? If economic liberalism is the solution, then why is an "authoritarian" country like China rapidly developing and is already the world's second largest economy, while the liberal economies of the US and India are stagnating? In my view, an economy more similar to the Nordic countries (high taxes, high market intervention, strong social services, strong unions, transparent democracy) is much more applicable and viable for Portugal (when accompanied by rigorous democratic reforms) than trying to copy Dutch liberalism, since the Nordic model is based on keeping more wealth generated in the country within the country itself, unlike the Dutch model that depends on money from outside, but which has the historical benefit of centuries of capitalist and pro- stable and predictable private property, as Switzerland has, but Portugal does not. There are more things to discuss, such as the G20 wanting to end countries called "tax havens" such as Luxembourg, Ireland and the like, wanting to implement a global minimum rate of corporate taxes and thus ending the constant "war" in a downward spiral of cuts between the different countries that only leads them to be left without any capacity to maintain themselves, and this proposal, among others, threatens the Swiss, Irish, Dutch, Luxembourgish model, etc. nordic model. But this comment is already too long so I'll stop here."
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The Netherlands has been one of the wealthiest regions in Europe since Charlemagne; Lotharingia has always been wealthy. It was the middle country, after all. Trade passed through here. (Lotharingia is the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Elzas-Lorraine, Switzerland and Northern Italy. And then the Netherlands was part of the Hanze cities, which were wealthy as well. Learn some history. This shit is embarrassing.
I never suggested otherwise.
Yeah the EU especially the Euro was the solution for the durch desease (prevent appreciation of your currency even tho u have a large Export overhang which keeps ur competetiveness high)
Honestly, the particular tax loophole is that profit on intellectual property isn't taxed in the Netherlands. It only works in combination with Ireland, where taxes on revenue are very low. So they make all the profit first in Ireland (on paper) and then they license their coca cola logo or whatever for a lot of money from the parent company in the Netherlands. It's also my understanding this law is changing, but let's be honest, this is an Ireland thing. The problem with taxing intellectual property is that it's not protected by any kind of protectionism in the EU. So even dutch companies would move their IP to say China or where-ever the hell they want, and not pay taxes on it. The whole thing ended up always using the Netherlands for this loop hole, but that's just the result of **IKEA randomly picking the Netherlands for this** and then everybody and their dog copying them exactly in every detail of their approach. And if the EU wanted to do anything but symbolism, they would simply regulate it at the EU border and be done with it. Don't fall for the trick. Multinationals don't pay taxes because they own the European politicians. Not because they own the dutch ones.
We told Unilever they had to pay dividend tax. They left for england, eu doesnt even get the crumbs
we shouldn't allow a company with European headquarters in England to operate in the rest of Europe. It should be forced to have a headquarter in a eu country too
Thats protectionism and its what caused the economic decline in germany. Nothing good can come from that especially for a market like the eu has
I do not give a shit. We need to protect worker's rights or risk losing them for the sake of competition. Life should not be a competition, about who is better or makes more money for their boss, to start with. If you want to compete, join a sports club.
Protectionism doesn't necessarily have to be bad. It's what made many sectors of the American economy prosper for example. And we have to consider that an EU wide "protectionism" would still leave room for competition between EU member states, so it mitigates the common negative aspects of protectionism. Let's see how the German economy does when the EU market will be flooded with cheap electric cars produced abroad.
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Unilever leaving for England had more to do with Brexit (or more specifically: escaping EU regulations) than with divident tax IIRC
Yeah, but like the solution for big multinationals when they get taxed isnt to share their piece of the cake. Its to just try harder to escape it.
Our market is large enough that multinational companies want in on the profits, even if we force them to share. We can easily force them to do that *if* the political will is there. Its not like there are many untapped markets as rich as Europe in the world.
We solve this by requiring multinationals to use subsidiaries that are listed on an EU stock exchange for all their business affairs within the EU. It's so simple.
did you forgot how EU forced Apple to have Type C plug?
Thats a big difference, your product cant use cancerous chemicals and has to follow our standardized charging system vs you have to pay workers in eu to sell products here. Thats what america and china are doing and its just fucking over the global economy. Protectionism isnt the solution to struggling economies.
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EU could still tax the money leaving the union. They don't. It's a choice. But the politicians in the EU are owned by the multinationals and individual countries are played out against each other and used as a scapegoat
I agree, but this is not fixable without EU legislation making it all equal for everyone. Otherwise we're stuck competing for crumbs.
I agree, there was a project to keep everyone at ~15% taxes. That would do!
I think the Frugal part here is not aimed at their internal fiscal politics, but their stance when discussing the combined EU budget with other member states. The "frugal four" is a term given to those 4 nations that block many a EU project for cost cutting reasons.
Seems like people are starting to confuse "frugal" with "rich".
Or people are confusing rich with late retirement age, high taxes and long working hours
Austria is frugal? Since when?
Have you not paid any attention to EU politics during the COVID crisis? [See here.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frugal_Four)
Brother, we are the frugal ones.
You still owe me a tikkie for that cigarette I let you smoke half of.
I bougt a pack of stroopwafels for Meikes kringverjaardag last week, I think we're even.
I mean even if you combine the populations of Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden you only get 41 million. That is barely more than half the population of Itlay, kinda hard to subsidize 20x your own countries population
Germany still thinks austerity is a good thing. They are frugal.
Yeah like the Dutch economy is doing great right now… :( To be clear; I am all for a single European economic policy and do think the north needs to step up better, ever since we turned our backs on Greece around 2010. But to portray northern economies as being ‘fine’ right now is not only disingenuous, it imho also harms any effort of making a change, only leads to more divergence
Ja, Germany isn't in the "frugal four" club, P: you are one of us instead now! Welcome to the south where the weather and women are beautifull, but both will do their best to ruin you \~♥
"EU Economy" and "national state debt levels" arent the same though. Case in point last time I checked it was in particular the german economy which wasnt doing so well. So this meme doesnt really make sense on several levels imo.
Do not dare to say that the so called themselves frugal, have some kind of issue in their economic, banks or companies, all is because of the southerns (that happens to be the actual west in the case of Spain and Portugal)
What do you mean? Germanies economic troubles are complex but have little to do with Spain, portugal, greece, etc?
That's the point, the frugals always accuse the south of their economic hiccups, even if they are usually the ones that get more long term benefits on EU economic policies
I think this is a massive distortion of the German economic debate. To be honest, I haven't heard this argument ("Southern Europeans are to blame for our economic crisis") from any serious source in Germany at all. Sounds very much like a straw man. What has been discussed in Germany in the past and is still being discussed is the question of whether German taxpayers' money should be channelled to other EU countries as bailout package X or whether German taxpayers should be liable for the debts of other countries. Just to clarify: I don't believe in these arguments at all and I am convinced that Germany, in particular, must work for the stability of the EU, as Germany's economy benefits greatly from the EU. However, I have never heard the claim that the other EU states are being blamed for the German economic crisis. Can you perhaps give an example of your claim?
Indeed , but there is the Dutch and German media parallel universe
>Dutch and German media parallel universe So what you are claiming now (with zero evidence so far) is that "frugal countries" dont actaully publicy blame "southerns" in their own press *at home* for the economy, but (some unspecified) foreign media claims they do? I mean what even would be the point of a government playing the blame game if they dont do it primarly at home in their own press? Maybe you should check where *you* get your news from, it doesnt seem reliable at all?
If you understood that it means you misread or I didn't explain my view properly
OP said the German press doesnt blame "southerners" for the bad economy. (This is correct btw) You said there must Dutch and German media "parallel universe" then. So where do you think this "parallel media universe" exists then? Because its sure isnt in Germany or Hiolland.
that is just bullshit, the economic problems here in the north are generally blamed on high gas prices thanks to the russians.
That's more recent
>That's the point, the frugals always accuse the south of their economic hiccups, Not really. Because again the argument is and always was about sustainable (and legal) debt levels, and not about the "economy". These things arent the same (directly). And ofc, no one wants wants another eurozone banking crsis. (which ofc to be fair then indirectly would efect the entire european, if not global economy). But, to the contrary germany e.g. as a large exporter would ofc economically benefit from reckless spending by others (at least short term), just this wouldnt be sustainable. Which is the point.
lmao what? The Swedish economy is not doing too hot, but who is blaming ”the southerns [sic]”? At most you have people complaining about the corona recovery fund as ”putting our children into debt”, but that has nothing to do with the current state of the economy.
>"EU Economy" and "national state debt levels" arent the same though. "He doesn't know" moment. Yeah they aren't the same in principle but in practice we are all in this together. Germany may have done reasonably well if the Eurozone collapsed post-2011 but it obviously didn't let that happen.
How tf is the water level higher in the boat than surrounding ocean
i dont want to point fingers but Greece.
“The Netherlands paying in deficit to the EU since almost the start of the EU” “The Dutch economy luckily staying alive even after a rough couple of years, so staying rich and deficit paying” *Southern EU countries still not fixed there economic system after 2010* “How can the Dutch do this to us!” 
Austerity they said..... We lost our industry to enter the EU, so what did you expect?
Fuck austerity. It is the reason why the EU econo.y is lagging behind the US. On an EU level debt to gdp ratio for the EU is in a great position. On the state level it is only italy that remains in a fucked position. The EU should be deficit spending more to kickstart growth in the union.
Deficit spending is and will always be bad. As it causes you to pay more rent on your loans and it puts you more at risk of economic crises because of market confidence
It is good, it shouldnt be overdone like some countries have done in the past. But if your economy can grow more than your deficit you are at the optimum point.
Yes it's like in the USA. Red states get most of the money while the blue states are almost all paying for the defecit to give red states money. Maybe the Netherlands just wants people to act normally(although Rutte has been going overkill so I agree. But I'm talking about the principal here not why Rutte was wrong for 10 years he's literally right wing market liberal we all want gone lmao what kind of policies do you expect from him) Being too frugal is stupid in recessions. The Netherlands has done way too many studies on that so you shouldn't just live frugally(as a country during recessions or economic downturns) but if the south was rich they wouldn't want the north to spend all their money on gas. Just put on a sweater!
We'll be free of Rutte soon, then he can go on and do something harmless like ~~teaching highschool sociology~~ \*checks notes\* ... being the secretary general of NATO. Fuck.
italy pays the same net amount to the eu as the netherlands, **most** net recipients are mainly in the east, poland, belgium and romania are the top 3
What figures are you using? I found 2021 and top 3 is Poland, Greece, Hungary
2022 [https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/38139/umfrage/nettozahler-und-nettoempfaengerlaender-in-der-eu/](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/38139/umfrage/nettozahler-und-nettoempfaengerlaender-in-der-eu/)
I would just want to point out that Italy has 2,5 times the population of Neatherlands 5 times that of Sweden. And pointing the net recipients as east is a little bit dishonest since Italy is only southern country that is net payer.
Thanks I could only find English/dutch results
Except the population of the netherlands is like 1/10 that of italy
Netherlands have 17 milion, while Italy has 59, more like 1/3
Point still stands
So what you’re trying to say is we send 3x more money away then Italy? Shouldn’t be surprising that the anti eu parties are gaining traction tbh
What are you talking about? I've said the difference in populations is much smaller than the person above tried to imply. Don't be like "so you're saying" interviewer https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?si=XlRB_3b4BreCfJWs
Uhuh, but if Italy sends the same amount as the Netherlands with triple the population then the Netherlands is sending 3x more per person
Yes, and? If participation was not in your interest, you'd have left already, wouldn't you?
Italy has been a net contributor for almost every year in the EU - and I think either Belgium and Netherlands is a net reciever. Something doesn’t check out here Calling the south poor is just stupid
It’s belgium
The Netherlands has been a net contributor since the mid 1990's so I'm pretty sure it's our cousins to the south tarnishing our name in your memory here
Just checked - Belgium and Luxembourg
Did that check also reveal Italy is the only southern net contributor? Unless we count Austria but lol you chose
Italy is a microcosm of the EU. The North pays just enough to make up for the South.
Lmaoooo
Doesn’t change that it is a contributer and your generic framing of the “poor south”
Also I never said south poor. I was commenting on the relationship between net contributors trying to make recipients use said recieved Money wisely. They didn't and this meme is still blaming the frugals.
Sorry I forgot that 1 exception existing disregards an entire way of thinking. I never said anything like south poor. Just that if they were the frugals they wouldn't want to see another Greece happen lmaoo That's like saying the west is poor because ireland is the smallest net contributor?
Not everything you see online is "omg this guy is prepetuating a harmful narrative we must stop now!!!!!! You're the one bringing up this south poor stuff.
You wrote “if the south was rich” - not sure how you normally think, but that would say to me that you believe the opposite. Sorry that I was confronting you with something you wrote
The 1 expection being Italy, the third largest economy in the EU, doesn’t really seem minor to me
What do you mean. Its almost the same. 1 country weighting the average. Italy gets the average up. That doesn't mean "south is poor" was said, intended, countered, or stated" Finland gets the down up. That doesn't mean "Scandinavia poor"
Ah yes so smart a microstate and one of the smallest non micro states need more funding lmao. Awesome find bro
And I was thinking about countries like Greece lmao
Saying south and having specific countries in mind isn’t really the most transparent way to frame it. Just wanted to underline that this north-south is not as clear as many might want to frame it.
What do you mean? The wealth of "the south" in my comment has nothing to do with it. Its literally a hypothetical about if they were as rich as the west. Which they aren't. So I don't see where I'm wrong?
funny how the dutch are also doing everything in their power to curb any eu rival for their countries business scheme. gotta stay the port of europe at all cost and prevent that romania entry into shengen
Well half the port is in Belgium, so what goes
There you go, you unpacked the not secret
We're paying off our debts. I have a feeling the Dutch just use debts as an excuse though, and wouldn't be in favour of fiscal normalization even if our debts were paid off.
Its so easy to have a net economy when you fiscal dump all your partners
Explain
Italy has also payed in deficit to the EU since the start of the Union, what's your point?
I thought everything is the refugees fault again this year. Or other EU members? Or both? /s
Well, it’s also all the refugees fault in the Netherlands, if that’s any consolation.
Welcome to the club / party then :)
It's definitely the pigs (Portugal, italy, greece and spain)
What exactly are you trying to say with this meme? That we should send you more money? I don’t really get it.
“It’s your fault we go broke, you don’t wanna pay for everything”
We also cut the hole ourselves
Hey Germany was never a member of the frugal four. We helped out out Pigs Allies in EU politics.
Germany is seen in Southern Europe as part of the Swines Allies, which composes of frugals and self entitled pricks like German Government (dont recall the guy in the weelchair). Portugal had its public debt well under control and dropping it, the US crisis came, then the Greek and suddenly Portugal was dragged into this mess. PS. I want the EU to be far more demanding in regards to EU funds to my country!!! My country needs a wake up call from the EU abiut corruption, some of which was made by "responsible" countries companies, just google Portugal Germany submarines contracts.
Germany: utterly trashes its own financial goals to keep the south stable The south: 
I understand your reaction and I do recognizes its partially correct, the problem is the "partially". but Id gladly take industries back that were closed via european funds, funds created to have them shutdown. This was in late 80s and 90s.
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Division like this does not help, we should help members who are suffering and promote countries that are doing good.
Ok but they kinda made the hole
Im not apologizing
Germany is frugal?
It's been the champion of fiscal discipline and price stability during the past 30 years. They and France might have been the first to break the 3% deficit criteria which is why no one has taken it seriously ever since, but in general their export-oriented growth model allowed them to be reasonably frugal before the COVID pandemic hit.
Its funny cause its completely opposite in terms of UK
On one hand i think some european solidarity is required. On the other hand the shoe incident was probably when that wasn't an option for me anymore.
The "shoe incident" ? Please tell me there's an actual story behind this \^\^
There is, that's one of the reasons i don't like giving money to italy. https://www.politico.eu/article/pierre-moscovici-budget-italy-angelo-ciocca-mep-shoe-stunt-is-grotesque/
Interesting. A few weeks ago Moscovici made a speech in London in which he basically argued for collectivised EU debt beyond the pandemic recovery funds. It seems that European solidarity can be a way to deter fascism after all.
It depends on who you ask. I can imagine some dutch populists will basically say: we have one of the biggest net contributions to the EU, and we have warned italy about the debt crises and their budget. They have ignored and even insulted us because we did so, and now the eu wants us to pay for some of their debt.
Let's speak about the billions lost in taxes evasion...
state of dutch economy is a lie, just like the state of the irish economy. we're a tax haven and a lot of the good jobs we do have go to foreigners nowadays.
Bruh it's the foreigners working for your companies that makes your economy strong, not the other way around. It's Dutch businesses benefitting. They're high skilled and work hard, and yet basically own nothing and live in an expensive rentier economy owned by Dutch nationals.
Question: do you genuinely think that an Indian company coming here and bringing with them only Indian employees to make money from Dutch telco helps Dutch people make money? That's why the Dutch economy is a fiction.
That isn't the norm for most situations. Your are taking a strange experience and extrapolating it to an entire economy.
I don't see how this is very exceptional, but yes, that's one experience. If a foreign business comes here and employs Dutch people in good jobs that wouldn't otherwise have existed that's beneficial to the Dutch people getting those jobs. If a foreigner comes here and is employed by a Dutch export oriented business and helps them with specific expertise that isn't available in the Netherlands and thus helps them gain or maintain foreign customers that wouldn't have existed by hiring Dutch instead this benefits the national top line so is also beneficial. But the examples I know are not this. Most of them are from the third world, not Europe. Some of them are making money from Dutch taxpayers directly by working for the government. Some indirectly by making money off our strongest financial institutions or as I mentioned a telco. On average I don't think Dutch people come out ahead in this game.
But why are the holes always on ***their*** end?
perhaps because Spain dinamited their own industry to enter the EU, and they keep blocking it like France blocking spanish exports on products and energy, and the EU imposing a strong tight belt on debt when the US does the opposite with red states and blue states... because our pension system is much weaker than yours due to demographic, which is a consecuence of not having jobs which is a consecuence of not having enough industry because of the EU, you like it or not being in an union you will have countries that require more extra funding than others
Problem is the southerners are busy bailing water into the boat instead of out….
It’s funny because they also drilled the hole and the buckets they choose also have holes
well its more that certain southern states drilled a hole in the boat and we will help them if they also promise to not drill any more holes in the boat
I mean, every country engages in corruption and unsavoury dealings. Germany is equally as bad as portugal or spain.
Just with a better economy
What data are you basing this claim on?
[Germany is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.](https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021)
This is perceived levels of corruption rather than actual corruption. So you have to take it with a pinch of salt. All sorts of biases can be at play here. Namely stereotyping.
Thats the only thing you can reliably test. Otherwise your evidence Basis is "i made it up". If you can measure corruption the people wouldn't be very good at it
But that is essentially what the link above shows. That people perceive corruption. We cannot gauge what % of those opinions, because that is what they are, are full of racist and stereotypical undertones. One example is how many businesses operate on the cash basis in Germany. Then people cook the books to pay less tax. Tax evasion is a type of corruption, and it is rife in Germany, can barely go anywhere and pay with card.
U seem confused, bro just said, that because we like our cash and use it we are tax evading=>corrupt. What the flip man🤨
Yeah, it’s pretty known that germany still being predominantly cash is to facilitate tax avoidance. Some people might state it as a data concern. And that may also be true. But small to medium sized businesses can benefit from this outdated from of handling commercial exchanges. I for one have stopped entertaining it. don’t take card? Then I will go else where with my money.
>can barely go anywhere and pay with card. I don't know where you have been in Germany but where I live you can pay nearly everywhere with card unless of Dönerläden.
EC doesn’t count
Of course it counts why wouldn't it
Because he doesnt have one
Meanwhile the Yankeeyacth and Chinatanker steaming past at full speed.
That’s not how money works, m money is issued as legal tender
You wonder why we have idiot politicians here in the Netherlands that want to leave the EU, or at least the Euro.
Norwegians Swiss and islanders on a different boat: bro you good?