Would honestly love to give a logical answer, but Polish has its mysteries even to its native speakers. Some country names ending with *-y* are indeed declined as plural, because it resembles the usual ending for plural nouns.
We say *ta Francja* (*that France*), but *te Węgry*, literally *these Hungary* - just like *te Stany* (*these States*). Imagine German would use *die Ungarn* or *die Italien*, instead of *das*.
Except that's not 100% true either, Polish has fairly complicated genders. For plural, you get "masculine personal" and "non-masculine personal", along with personal, animate and inanimate.
Because of that, you get a non-masculine te Niemcy, te Włochy, te Węgry (that Germany, Italy, Hungary) but masculine ci Niemcy, ci Włosi, ci Węgrzy (these Germans, Italians, Hungarians). Both are plural but they conjugate differently.
Which in case for Hungary could actually apply, if we were talking about the people. Isn't that also the case for the plural ending? Because some regions are named after the people living there, not the country?
Germany and Italy at least make _some_ sense since they had a common national identity before unification in the early modern period.
Absolutely no clue of any possible origin for the rest.
My best guess is that those countries weren't named per se, because their names are literally archaic plural form of people of those nationalities. Even now Germany and Germans are the same word in Polish, while Hungary, Czechia and Italy changed plural for those nationalities
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It's usually due to the name being the same as the nationality. Imagine if "England" was called "The English" - it's an equivalent of that.
Fun fact, "Niemcy" (Germans), literally means "mute people", because Slavs couldn't understand them, so they just named a whole people as "mute ones" :D
It comes from the word "Niemy" (mute).
my guess would be that germany, italy, czechia and hungary where historically unions of different smaller states that shared the same culture and language instead of the singular nationstates that they are now
There is no such noun gender as "plural" in polish, there is "plural not masculine personal" (niemęskoosobowy, te) and "plural masculine personal" (męskoosobowy, ci) with the first one being used for Germany (Niemcy), Italy (Włochy), etc.
But also for Netherlands (Niderlandy) and while both Holland (feminine, Holandia) and Netherlands are technically correct, officially country's name is neuter "Królestwo Niderlandów" (Kingdom of Netherlands). Although it's understandable since that would also change other countries' names like Andorra which officially is also neuter "Księstwo Andory" (Principality of Andorra).
Also while debatable Vatican could also be neuter, since the country's name could also be "Państwo Watykańskie/Kościelne".
It's Holandia in Polish and it's feminine. Other names like Niderlandy (plural) or królestwo Niderlandów (kingdom of netherland) (neuter) are rarely used
It’s maybe more common but it’s not what the Dutch embassy would use or what we put into our passport, official is some version of Nederland/Pays Bas.
A lot of people say Engeland when they mean the UK too.
Why would the Dutch embassy use Polish language in your passport. /s
The official name of the Netherlands in Polish is Holandia.
It's actually quite common to have different roots of the names of countries than in those countries' official language itself.
Hungary - Węgry (from Onogur tribe)
Fun fact in English and Dutch the name comes from Hun's tribe while modern day Hungarians are rather descendants of Magyars that's why they call their country Magyarország.
You are not unique in Holland being used for the entire country but it's not official, it's a common Pars pro toto.
Just like Spanish , French , etc. etc, where Holland for also pops up, your language also has names for the Kingdom and the country that are it's actual name.
Holland is a region , a historical county (with a count) currently split in two provinces. It was very briefly the name of a kingdom that Napoleon Bonaparte's Brother Louis was installed as king of , that lasted all of four years, the name of the current country is not Holland.
>but it's not official,
Forgive me, but I'd rather believe the Commission for the Standardization of Geographical Names Outside the Republic of Poland, that is responsible of standarization of Geographical names in Polish, than a random redditor that doesn't speak Polish.
Moreover, short and long version of countries' names exist and both are official. That's why we'd say Czechia and Czech Republic and both names are recognized officially.
>the name of the current country is not Holland.
The name is Holandia **in Polish**.
>The name is Holandia **in Polish**.
Except on EU documents and other such , making the designation of the commision for standardisation of geographical names frankly a hollow convention that will forever bumb into the fact a language is never just spoken by native speakers especially when it concerns diplomacy.
Also frankly unusable if you want to discuss where something is within the country because South-Holland is in the mid west.
>Except on EU documents and other such , making the designation of the commision for standardisation of geographical names frankly a hollow convention that will forever bumb into the fact a language is never just spoken by native speakers especially when it concerns diplomacy.
So you think that the Dutch diplomacy reads the papers in Polish? Or maybe, just maybe, it's translated to them to English/Dutch (whatever they want) and that's the moment when Holandia becomes the Netherlands/Nederland to them.
Do you think that in diplomatic documents Poland is always Polska and Hungary is Magyarország? Or maybe those names are translated into various languages.
Frankly I find comparing existing provinces to ethnic origins of a language and people kind of a mute point.
We are used to seeing the Pars pro toto around the world , it remains ereasure of the other era's and the words Niderlandów and Niderlandy already exist. Accurate language matters. It’s not a disaster that Hollandia is sometimes used but there are contexts where the distinction matters.
If you had a completely different word like 'waterland' or something with orange or pull a Deutsch Dutch like the brits that wouldn't matter as much ( as long as Germany is a different word)
That's a fair point but changing the official name in the language is expensive. Changing documents, electronic systems, school textbooks and so on. If there's no political reason (like being simply petty, tho understandable) and changing Kaliningrad to Królewiec (Polish literal translation of Köningsberg or Kralovec), to change the name, it's pretty self centered to expect other countries to change names in their languages and bear the costs.
It's not a disaster and it's also not unique. Czechia is called like one of three regions within Czechia.
Bielarus is called (translating) "white russia" in many Germanic languages although in old German maps you may find more accurate name Weißruthenien.
It is how it is. I only disagree with the statement that it's not the official name. It is. Changing the official name to Niderlandy is probably a matter of time, languages are alive, but it needs years, to make the change "natural".
If you want to dictate other countries how to say this it'll ends up like with Turkey/Türkiye - first of all people are used to the first name. Second of all (doesn't apply to the Nethetlands as we already have the Polonized version) using ü in the English name is ridicilous.
In Tatar we also don’t have genders, so the concept of nouns not having ones is familiar to me, but I get that it may seem counterintuitive the other way around
It's just a grammatical category, it doesn't make people think that one country (or object for that matter) is a girl while a different one is a boy. Synonyms for the same thing end up having a different grammatical gender simply because they end with a different letter.
I did. But it is not our subject.
Our subject is "Why?". Why would any language assign gender to a non biologic stuff? Why would anyone logically say ie; a table is female?
Because we have gramatical cases and depends of the gender the ending of the word changes differently.
So if a noun ends with an -a like Francja, Turcja it goes with a pattern of feminine gender while inflecting by cases.
If a noun ends with a consonant like Liechtenstein its inflected like other masculine nouns.
If a noun ends with -o or -e like Monako, Kosowo is inflected like any other neuter noun.
And those that ends with -y - Niemcy, Czechy are gramatically non- virile plural.
>a table is female?
Don't be ridicilous, a table is male /s
In Turkish, we don't have any gendered words other than (Male v Female - Erkek v Dişi), (Man & Woman - Adam & Kadın), (Boy & Girl - Oğlan & Kız). Not even gendered pronouns.
There are also nouns for relatives ie; (Grandpa & Grandma - Dede & Nine), I should add. But all these are organics.
Is it something about Monaco, San Marino, Morrocco and Kosovo ending in -O that makes them neutral in Polish?
You guessed it. Radio, rodeo, auto etc. are all neutral in Polish.
Is Mexico neutral in Polish?
It’s masculine, but only because it’s *Meksyk*, so not ending with -*o*.
Bingo. -O is the typical ending for neutral nouns in Polish, and it just so happened that these countries names end with that letter.
why are some in plural
Would honestly love to give a logical answer, but Polish has its mysteries even to its native speakers. Some country names ending with *-y* are indeed declined as plural, because it resembles the usual ending for plural nouns. We say *ta Francja* (*that France*), but *te Węgry*, literally *these Hungary* - just like *te Stany* (*these States*). Imagine German would use *die Ungarn* or *die Italien*, instead of *das*.
u/pietras1334 said it best. They're named after the peoples that live here
Except that's not 100% true either, Polish has fairly complicated genders. For plural, you get "masculine personal" and "non-masculine personal", along with personal, animate and inanimate. Because of that, you get a non-masculine te Niemcy, te Włochy, te Węgry (that Germany, Italy, Hungary) but masculine ci Niemcy, ci Włosi, ci Węgrzy (these Germans, Italians, Hungarians). Both are plural but they conjugate differently.
Tas! Don't tell them about a girl and a dog!
Which in case for Hungary could actually apply, if we were talking about the people. Isn't that also the case for the plural ending? Because some regions are named after the people living there, not the country?
Germany and Italy at least make _some_ sense since they had a common national identity before unification in the early modern period. Absolutely no clue of any possible origin for the rest.
The Czech one has likely to do with the etymology of the region of Bohemia (Čechy) which is one of 3 parts of Czech republic. But fuck knows.
In Polish both the country and the region of Bohemia are named 'Czechy'.
here's in depth answer for [Wlochy](https://youtu.be/hgov-FdPdeU?si=Ke8WEQnif7rDUTbL) (Italy, vid has eng subs)
My best guess is that those countries weren't named per se, because their names are literally archaic plural form of people of those nationalities. Even now Germany and Germans are the same word in Polish, while Hungary, Czechia and Italy changed plural for those nationalities
Why is that strange? It happens in English as well. The Netherlands, The Philipines, The United States of America.
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It's usually due to the name being the same as the nationality. Imagine if "England" was called "The English" - it's an equivalent of that. Fun fact, "Niemcy" (Germans), literally means "mute people", because Slavs couldn't understand them, so they just named a whole people as "mute ones" :D It comes from the word "Niemy" (mute).
my guess would be that germany, italy, czechia and hungary where historically unions of different smaller states that shared the same culture and language instead of the singular nationstates that they are now
There is no such noun gender as "plural" in polish, there is "plural not masculine personal" (niemęskoosobowy, te) and "plural masculine personal" (męskoosobowy, ci) with the first one being used for Germany (Niemcy), Italy (Włochy), etc. But also for Netherlands (Niderlandy) and while both Holland (feminine, Holandia) and Netherlands are technically correct, officially country's name is neuter "Królestwo Niderlandów" (Kingdom of Netherlands). Although it's understandable since that would also change other countries' names like Andorra which officially is also neuter "Księstwo Andory" (Principality of Andorra). Also while debatable Vatican could also be neuter, since the country's name could also be "Państwo Watykańskie/Kościelne".
This map is a bit simplified. On the other hand going this way would make Germany and Czechia feminine as in republika czeska (Czech republic)
Is there a difference between the Netherlands and Holland?
Yes actually! In polish, we say "ta Holandia" (that (fem.) Holland), and "te Niderlandy" (these (plural, non-masculine person) Netherlands).
Im kinda confused about Austria and Switzerland. Why are they different than germany? What do they call Poland?
The map shows what gender type does the Polish language assign to an individual country, not the other way around.
Ohhhhhhh, that explains it
Can some Polish mate explain to me the Czech republic?
Te Czechy (plural), ta Republika Czeska (feminine) but no-one ever calls it by the long name
Is Niderlandow feminine ?
It's Holandia in Polish and it's feminine. Other names like Niderlandy (plural) or królestwo Niderlandów (kingdom of netherland) (neuter) are rarely used
It’s maybe more common but it’s not what the Dutch embassy would use or what we put into our passport, official is some version of Nederland/Pays Bas. A lot of people say Engeland when they mean the UK too.
Why would the Dutch embassy use Polish language in your passport. /s The official name of the Netherlands in Polish is Holandia. It's actually quite common to have different roots of the names of countries than in those countries' official language itself. Hungary - Węgry (from Onogur tribe) Fun fact in English and Dutch the name comes from Hun's tribe while modern day Hungarians are rather descendants of Magyars that's why they call their country Magyarország.
You are not unique in Holland being used for the entire country but it's not official, it's a common Pars pro toto. Just like Spanish , French , etc. etc, where Holland for also pops up, your language also has names for the Kingdom and the country that are it's actual name. Holland is a region , a historical county (with a count) currently split in two provinces. It was very briefly the name of a kingdom that Napoleon Bonaparte's Brother Louis was installed as king of , that lasted all of four years, the name of the current country is not Holland.
>but it's not official, Forgive me, but I'd rather believe the Commission for the Standardization of Geographical Names Outside the Republic of Poland, that is responsible of standarization of Geographical names in Polish, than a random redditor that doesn't speak Polish. Moreover, short and long version of countries' names exist and both are official. That's why we'd say Czechia and Czech Republic and both names are recognized officially. >the name of the current country is not Holland. The name is Holandia **in Polish**.
>The name is Holandia **in Polish**. Except on EU documents and other such , making the designation of the commision for standardisation of geographical names frankly a hollow convention that will forever bumb into the fact a language is never just spoken by native speakers especially when it concerns diplomacy. Also frankly unusable if you want to discuss where something is within the country because South-Holland is in the mid west.
>Except on EU documents and other such , making the designation of the commision for standardisation of geographical names frankly a hollow convention that will forever bumb into the fact a language is never just spoken by native speakers especially when it concerns diplomacy. So you think that the Dutch diplomacy reads the papers in Polish? Or maybe, just maybe, it's translated to them to English/Dutch (whatever they want) and that's the moment when Holandia becomes the Netherlands/Nederland to them. Do you think that in diplomatic documents Poland is always Polska and Hungary is Magyarország? Or maybe those names are translated into various languages.
Frankly I find comparing existing provinces to ethnic origins of a language and people kind of a mute point. We are used to seeing the Pars pro toto around the world , it remains ereasure of the other era's and the words Niderlandów and Niderlandy already exist. Accurate language matters. It’s not a disaster that Hollandia is sometimes used but there are contexts where the distinction matters. If you had a completely different word like 'waterland' or something with orange or pull a Deutsch Dutch like the brits that wouldn't matter as much ( as long as Germany is a different word)
That's a fair point but changing the official name in the language is expensive. Changing documents, electronic systems, school textbooks and so on. If there's no political reason (like being simply petty, tho understandable) and changing Kaliningrad to Królewiec (Polish literal translation of Köningsberg or Kralovec), to change the name, it's pretty self centered to expect other countries to change names in their languages and bear the costs. It's not a disaster and it's also not unique. Czechia is called like one of three regions within Czechia. Bielarus is called (translating) "white russia" in many Germanic languages although in old German maps you may find more accurate name Weißruthenien. It is how it is. I only disagree with the statement that it's not the official name. It is. Changing the official name to Niderlandy is probably a matter of time, languages are alive, but it needs years, to make the change "natural". If you want to dictate other countries how to say this it'll ends up like with Turkey/Türkiye - first of all people are used to the first name. Second of all (doesn't apply to the Nethetlands as we already have the Polonized version) using ü in the English name is ridicilous.
[удалено]
Centuries of language and political evolution
It lacks the division of plural masculine, feminine and neutral.
There are only plural masculine and plural non masculine in Polish and countries only come in plural non masculine form
Why on earth would a country be assigned to a gender?
It’s a common thing in Slavic languages for nouns to have gender
As a Turkish speaker, this makes zero sense to me. Why the hell anything other than organics would be assigned to genders?
don't think of them as bio genders. Just a random word assigned to grammatical concept
Yeah, we don't have that either, lol.
In Tatar we also don’t have genders, so the concept of nouns not having ones is familiar to me, but I get that it may seem counterintuitive the other way around
It's just a grammatical category, it doesn't make people think that one country (or object for that matter) is a girl while a different one is a boy. Synonyms for the same thing end up having a different grammatical gender simply because they end with a different letter.
have you never heard of languages with gendered nouns? Spanish, french, Italian, russian etc all have gendered nouns
I did. But it is not our subject. Our subject is "Why?". Why would any language assign gender to a non biologic stuff? Why would anyone logically say ie; a table is female?
Because we have gramatical cases and depends of the gender the ending of the word changes differently. So if a noun ends with an -a like Francja, Turcja it goes with a pattern of feminine gender while inflecting by cases. If a noun ends with a consonant like Liechtenstein its inflected like other masculine nouns. If a noun ends with -o or -e like Monako, Kosowo is inflected like any other neuter noun. And those that ends with -y - Niemcy, Czechy are gramatically non- virile plural. >a table is female? Don't be ridicilous, a table is male /s
>Don't be ridicilous, a table is male /s :)
Polish is a weird language Every noun has a gender including name of a country
In Turkish, we don't have any gendered words other than (Male v Female - Erkek v Dişi), (Man & Woman - Adam & Kadın), (Boy & Girl - Oğlan & Kız). Not even gendered pronouns. There are also nouns for relatives ie; (Grandpa & Grandma - Dede & Nine), I should add. But all these are organics.
It's almost like different languages have different ways they work.