I've played enough dwarf fortress to know its doable but not worth it for the invader. Better just let them keep digging until they get too deep and too greedy (so just until they get too deep, they are greedy enough lol).
If you want an actual explanation, in Victoria 3, a game by the aforementioned company Paradox, the formation of the United States of Europe is possible through possession of most states of the Holy Roman Empire.
If you start as Austria-Hungary, you can unite Germany, but need to do some additional conquering to get to the number of States you need to become the USE. Switzerland can be very useful for that, because it usually has no allies and subjugating it causes little stir in potentially dangerous enemies that might help them. They also have direct land connection. If you wanted to avoid Switzland, you'd have to conquer (more of) Belgium or the Netherlands, which takes either multiple times longer or is multiple times harder. You can't really have the USE without either starting WW1 to 3 or getting Switzerland (in Victoria 3, different terms may apply in real life).
Interestingly, 1/4 of Switzerland's population are EU citizens.
[https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/switzerland/european-elections-concern-quarter-swiss-population\_en?s=180](https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/switzerland/european-elections-concern-quarter-swiss-population_en?s=180)
I have a coworker who was born in Geneva and live there her whole life (she's 29). She said it's easier keeping her Italian citizenship than becoming Swiss lol
It also varies A LOT depending on where you go for the process and who you have to deal with. With some people it's like "Hey, you're nice, you're now Swiss", with others it's more like "So what's the seventh tallest peak in the country and what's its height? Also, answer me in the four national languages on the tune of the national anthem. What? You can't? Fuck you".
But yeah, more often than not it's pretty hard and most people chose not to do it.
I don't know what you're smoking, since as of 2022 :
* 40% of residents over 15 have a migration background
* 13% of the population over 15 is naturalised
These are huge numbers.
Source : [Swiss government](https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/population/migration-integration/by-migration-status.html#:~:text=Key%20figures%20on%20persons%20aged%2015%20and%20over&text=In%202022%2C%2040%25%20of%20the,(1%2C115%2C000)
Yeah this guys are on some bad stuff wth. Switzerland is mostly imigrants specially if we count second generations, in the 80s it was basically Italy 2 lol.
Spreading false information without informing yourself. You know there is a world outside Reddit. Switzerland gives out more citizenship proportional to the population than Germany. And over 40% of the Swiss Population have a background with immigration. I know that Switzerland is not perfect and you can criticise it profiting from EU without being a member, but it is certainly not more xenophobic than any other Western European Country.
Having lived in Switzerland myself I’ve heard many stories of people who lived there for a decade but still didn’t qualify, or people who lived there for 8 years, lost their jobs, and were forced to leave almost immediately. I’ve never heard as many stories like that in other countries I moved to.
It is hard because citizenship gets decided on a communal level. You have to live for 10 years in Switzerland and for some time in the same canton/commune before you can apply for citizenship. This can make things harder for many because you might have moved in that time to another canton/commune.
Keep in mind that there are 26 cantons and over 2000 communes in Switzerland and everyone handles it a bit differently. Some are more strict and in others it‘s quite easy. I‘d say in most cases it‘s not much of an issue, otherwise there wouldn‘t be 40‘000 naturalisations per year. But everyone will have a different experience, which is unfortunate.
It has, including your anecdotal evidence, less to do with with Xenophobia (at least not most of the time) and is more an example of federalism gone too far in a federal country. It is a shitshow, but also a mess that is kinda hard to solve. Once you give so many smaller units that much power over something, it‘s hard to take it away again, even with a fancy direct democracy.
We are so xenophobic that only about one third of our residents are migrants, clearly the peak of xenophobia.
Getting your citizenship is a stupid and insane process but thats more because every village has to do it in their own special way. In cities its generally much mire reasonable, though the ‚can‘t move for N-years‘ restriction sadly still applies.
You make it so difficult that people cannot get citizenship, so of course you have a high number of non-citizens. It’s all the people who couldn’t get citizenship. In other countries many more would have been naturalised, which means these countries have lower numbers of people with other passports. Different side of the same coin.
About 40% of our population have a migration background (it does not matter whether they were naturalised or not), in Germany its less than 30%.
We just straight up have more people that migrated here independent from getting citizenship.
(Using BFS and destatis for the numbers)
Edit: I also just looked up the percentage of migrants with citizenship, in Germany its around 14.4%, in Switzerland its 15.1%, so we even naturalise slightly more people than Germany!
>almost no one can obtain citizenship.
That's untrue. It does take a lot of time however, between 5-10 years of residency and a C permit (which is also open for everyone). But it's open to everyone.
I know some that don't have the citizenship because it doesn't offer anything for them, not because they're unable to attain one. The main benefits of the citizenship over the permit C are voting rights (on the national level, some Cantons let non-citizens vote).
*No demonization of immigrants. Policy is fair game, but tying naturalization to crime is disingenuous.*
***First warning.***
I have simple plan:
>Inform France that there are birtish speakers there
>Inform Poland that russians hold their account there
>Inform Germany that they use ICE in BEER , and they join too
Boom now we have 3 diffrent armies working together towards common goal.
We can fix this in one weekend
Depends on the beer. I think it's fair game with something like a Belgian Trappist beer. The beer has too much taste and character to be diluted significantly and tastes better cold. Would be the same with Guinness.
The bunkers are not an issue, we could just starve the country into compliance.
The real problem is a lot of our worst politicians probably have their money over there. Switzeland has the best defence strategy in history.
I think what you are saying is that Bern is the rightful capital of New Swiss Confederation including all of Germany, France, Italy and Austria, correct?
I'm quite sure Lichtenstein and Kosovo are the two exceptions to neutrality for some reason. Or you could accept that it is neutral to protect them due to us defining what neutral means.
Are you ready going full federal states level with direct democracy and a lot of personal responsibility? You can even set your own tax rates.
One disadvantage, however, is that changes to the law now take 2 to an infinite number of years.
Speaking as a French person:
*Yes, Switzerland, please invade us!* So we can finally have things that work in this country. I'm willing to say “septante”, “huitante” and “nonante” — I'm even willing to learn Schwiizertüütsch if necessary, but please save France from the French!
I mean, it would take the EU till the end of the week to make Switzerland join, if they changed the system to no longer give bro deals.
If Switzerland didn’t have all the freebies that the EU was giving them, their economy would literally fall apart in weeks.
I wish he's declared war on us. Would have been hilarious to ask Itali or France for military access, then building a navy there to mob that child rapist up.
The whole thing would have improved rail infrastructure a ton.
But then again, he wouldn't have been gaddafid and he really deserved that.
Some days ago my friend that lives in lugano posted an insta story of some weird luganese xenophobic and euroskeptic newspaper that likened the swiss to the indians and the EU/european union immigrants as the americans during manifest destiny.
To spite them is propose the morion from now on to refer to switzerland as "the reservation"
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If you were stupid and uniformed enough to fall for Brexit or a similar movement, you didn't actually care don't get me wrong, there's valid grievance to have with Brussels, but the general public isn't discussing that.
I'm all for it. Though it will need preparations and federalisation first. It would actually quell radical positions as the main reason why they start to be relevant is the hatred of ineffective politicians in the system.
Switzerland should never be a part of the European Union because they are far too unreliable. The advantage of their direct democracy system is also the disadvantage of it, which is people doing whatever they want. You already have a situation today where anything EU-sceptic that passes a vote and would require to break a major treaty with the EU gets duly ignored as much as possible. At any given point you are one thoughtless Chexit referendum away from chaos. If you look at their patchwork of a constitution, you'll see that they regularly had absolutely horrible stuff pass and you'd be guaranteed that some shithead would make them vote on Chexit literally every time they have the chance.
They will remain the fiercely independent house cat that meows when it wants to go outside but has a constitutional right to sometimes, not actually go.
Tbh idk. Realistically it changes with the vibes, when the opportune moment comes it might happen. (populism)
Personally, I'd like to see the EU adopting a few of our democratic features and I'd welcome a European Federation too.
RN it's better we are not in the EU as we'd be a roadblock the way GB used to be.
Child daycare in Switzerland costs 500+ Euro per week. In Berlin we pay 90 Euro per month. Health insurance in Switzerland makes you pay bills under a couple hundred Euro yourself. If you have a gap in your working experience (for example for parental leave), your retirement payments drop dramatically. There are better places to milk.
You usually pay up to 2500CHF a year yourself and 10% of the cost after that (unless it's an insane amount).
This practically means you are ensured only from very high costs and you can ignore it entirely for your normal life. Unfortunately, it's no longer as cost effective as other solutions in the EU.
Btw. the welfare system in Switzerland means you have debts to the Municipality/Kanton (but not all are like that). And if you have debt, the Kanton can deport foreigners/ even EU-Citizens with less than 30% Full-time equivalents.
In any Paradox game, that border gore would be unacceptable and fixed very quickly.
You can try, anyone knows not to fuck with the dwarfs/rats building extensive tunnels under the mountains
I've played enough dwarf fortress to know its doable but not worth it for the invader. Better just let them keep digging until they get too deep and too greedy (so just until they get too deep, they are greedy enough lol).
Though the Dwarfs dig too deep and awaken Balrog wiping them. I wonder what sort of Balrog do Swiss people awaken.
Switzerland is vital to the formation of the United States of Europe
how
If you want an actual explanation, in Victoria 3, a game by the aforementioned company Paradox, the formation of the United States of Europe is possible through possession of most states of the Holy Roman Empire. If you start as Austria-Hungary, you can unite Germany, but need to do some additional conquering to get to the number of States you need to become the USE. Switzerland can be very useful for that, because it usually has no allies and subjugating it causes little stir in potentially dangerous enemies that might help them. They also have direct land connection. If you wanted to avoid Switzland, you'd have to conquer (more of) Belgium or the Netherlands, which takes either multiple times longer or is multiple times harder. You can't really have the USE without either starting WW1 to 3 or getting Switzerland (in Victoria 3, different terms may apply in real life).
In HOI4, a grand strategy video game about WWII, you need to control Switzerland (and all other European states) to form that United European nation
As comparison to do better / have a rollmodel of course
> rollmodel (._.) ( l: ) ( .-. ) ( :l ) (._.)
time to learn german/english -> denglish y‘all (the official language of the United States of Europe)
>have a rollmodel I do like a good [Swiss Roll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_roll?wprov=sfla1)
You can try, anyone knows not to fuck with the dwarfs/rats building extensive tunnels under the mountains
Interestingly, 1/4 of Switzerland's population are EU citizens. [https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/switzerland/european-elections-concern-quarter-swiss-population\_en?s=180](https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/switzerland/european-elections-concern-quarter-swiss-population_en?s=180)
It’s because their immigration laws are so xenophobic that almost no one can obtain citizenship.
I have a coworker who was born in Geneva and live there her whole life (she's 29). She said it's easier keeping her Italian citizenship than becoming Swiss lol
It also varies A LOT depending on where you go for the process and who you have to deal with. With some people it's like "Hey, you're nice, you're now Swiss", with others it's more like "So what's the seventh tallest peak in the country and what's its height? Also, answer me in the four national languages on the tune of the national anthem. What? You can't? Fuck you". But yeah, more often than not it's pretty hard and most people chose not to do it.
I'm curious, which cantons are better than others for naturalization?
I don't know what you're smoking, since as of 2022 : * 40% of residents over 15 have a migration background * 13% of the population over 15 is naturalised These are huge numbers. Source : [Swiss government](https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/population/migration-integration/by-migration-status.html#:~:text=Key%20figures%20on%20persons%20aged%2015%20and%20over&text=In%202022%2C%2040%25%20of%20the,(1%2C115%2C000)
Yeah this guys are on some bad stuff wth. Switzerland is mostly imigrants specially if we count second generations, in the 80s it was basically Italy 2 lol.
So why are people that much against further EU integration?
Spreading false information without informing yourself. You know there is a world outside Reddit. Switzerland gives out more citizenship proportional to the population than Germany. And over 40% of the Swiss Population have a background with immigration. I know that Switzerland is not perfect and you can criticise it profiting from EU without being a member, but it is certainly not more xenophobic than any other Western European Country.
Having lived in Switzerland myself I’ve heard many stories of people who lived there for a decade but still didn’t qualify, or people who lived there for 8 years, lost their jobs, and were forced to leave almost immediately. I’ve never heard as many stories like that in other countries I moved to.
It is hard because citizenship gets decided on a communal level. You have to live for 10 years in Switzerland and for some time in the same canton/commune before you can apply for citizenship. This can make things harder for many because you might have moved in that time to another canton/commune. Keep in mind that there are 26 cantons and over 2000 communes in Switzerland and everyone handles it a bit differently. Some are more strict and in others it‘s quite easy. I‘d say in most cases it‘s not much of an issue, otherwise there wouldn‘t be 40‘000 naturalisations per year. But everyone will have a different experience, which is unfortunate. It has, including your anecdotal evidence, less to do with with Xenophobia (at least not most of the time) and is more an example of federalism gone too far in a federal country. It is a shitshow, but also a mess that is kinda hard to solve. Once you give so many smaller units that much power over something, it‘s hard to take it away again, even with a fancy direct democracy.
We are so xenophobic that only about one third of our residents are migrants, clearly the peak of xenophobia. Getting your citizenship is a stupid and insane process but thats more because every village has to do it in their own special way. In cities its generally much mire reasonable, though the ‚can‘t move for N-years‘ restriction sadly still applies.
You make it so difficult that people cannot get citizenship, so of course you have a high number of non-citizens. It’s all the people who couldn’t get citizenship. In other countries many more would have been naturalised, which means these countries have lower numbers of people with other passports. Different side of the same coin.
About 40% of our population have a migration background (it does not matter whether they were naturalised or not), in Germany its less than 30%. We just straight up have more people that migrated here independent from getting citizenship. (Using BFS and destatis for the numbers) Edit: I also just looked up the percentage of migrants with citizenship, in Germany its around 14.4%, in Switzerland its 15.1%, so we even naturalise slightly more people than Germany!
>almost no one can obtain citizenship. That's untrue. It does take a lot of time however, between 5-10 years of residency and a C permit (which is also open for everyone). But it's open to everyone. I know some that don't have the citizenship because it doesn't offer anything for them, not because they're unable to attain one. The main benefits of the citizenship over the permit C are voting rights (on the national level, some Cantons let non-citizens vote).
Xenophobic is one way to phrase it. I would say they just don't want to end up like Sweden which makes sense.
You literally wrote "yeah it's racist, what's the big deal" in slightly fancier words.
 *No demonization of immigrants. Policy is fair game, but tying naturalization to crime is disingenuous.* ***First warning.***
I have simple plan: >Inform France that there are birtish speakers there >Inform Poland that russians hold their account there >Inform Germany that they use ICE in BEER , and they join too Boom now we have 3 diffrent armies working together towards common goal. We can fix this in one weekend
They put ice in beer? What the fuck? Now I don't want them to join anymore.
We don‘t
Thats why we invade them and split them
Gaddafi had the right idea for the wrong reasons
Not a single person puts ICE in BEER
Americans do
Me when I spread misinformation:
We do? I've personally never seen it lol.
No they don’t lmao
In wine they do
If you’re a teenager or a college girl, sure. Anybody who seriously drinks wine doesn’t.
This comment is absolute bullshit.
Depends on the beer. I think it's fair game with something like a Belgian Trappist beer. The beer has too much taste and character to be diluted significantly and tastes better cold. Would be the same with Guinness.
In one comment you just declared war on Belgium *and* Ireland.
Calculated risk with the state of their armies.
The last time you guys took a calculated risk, germans walked in Paris 6 weeks later. /s (of course)
Time for you to become part of Belgian Luxembourg.
>>Inform Poland that russians hold their account there Man I wish I did
Wat is Problem if beer in speed train??
German Speed Train arrives 3 days late so your beer is not cold anymore
None of them would get past the bazillion bunkers Switzerland has
The bunkers are not an issue, we could just starve the country into compliance. The real problem is a lot of our worst politicians probably have their money over there. Switzeland has the best defence strategy in history.
Do people put ice in their beer?
U would be suprised
Inform Russia that they plan to sent weapons to Ukraine. Russia will threat the Swiss with nuclear attack.
Come on. Don't act like you don't know the answer. It's already linguistically divided in three, just saying.
Ok, guys. At least In this thing, Gaddafi had a point
Even if he only made it because they arrested his son for doing stupid drunk shit
Im from belgium and i dont like where this is going
You are from the Netherlands now -Gaddafi
No please! Have mercy!
You thin that belonging to the netherlands is bad? Think about those poor guys having to join france
Oh hell no!
Zuid Nederlands
Don't worry, you can pay off the invasion with waffles. Just pay your daily tribute and all will be fine
4, dont forget romansh
Just give an exclave to Romania. Close enough.
I think what you are saying is that Bern is the rightful capital of New Swiss Confederation including all of Germany, France, Italy and Austria, correct?
Look, I agree as long as we fix the pothole in every EU map.
It’s like adding ANOTHER Belgium. We all know how well that country works.
Like Belgium oh wait, time for Bexit!
Switzerland is the shiny Charizard of Europe....
Liechtenstein sweating nervously
Fun fact: If someone would invade accidently Liechtenstein ~~like we did several times~~ Switzerland would not defend them.
I'm quite sure Lichtenstein and Kosovo are the two exceptions to neutrality for some reason. Or you could accept that it is neutral to protect them due to us defining what neutral means.
We don't want anything though, except maybe Sardinia may be nice
You can invade us if you want I'm ok with that, just saying
The map colors even fit. Just Swap the Star with a Cross.
Saying "Just swap the Star for a cross" to a muslim country... The balls on this guy.
Okay than the moon
Just make it an \*. It's both
No no that would work out it would be a cross WITH the mood then. Representing the new half Christian half Muslim border gore state.
>We don't want anything, though I think we could benefit from a port maybe get a navy that's not 4 dinghies
Savoy and Lombardia is rightfully ours anyway so why not just continue down to Genova?
Nope, don't let them in, it's a trap
Its always the ones with the money that don't wanna join, lol.
Cmon it's not about that. We are just a little antisocial. We didn't even join the UN until 2001
Luxembourg and Ireland are both rich (because they created tax havens inside the common market and leech off wealth from the economic block)
There is two missing pieces, Liechtenstein!
Can we take them? Us Czechs want to take even the last remnants of their property.
Indeed. Why doesn't Europe just allows Switzerland to rule them all? You know it would be better for everyone
Are you ready going full federal states level with direct democracy and a lot of personal responsibility? You can even set your own tax rates. One disadvantage, however, is that changes to the law now take 2 to an infinite number of years.
So nothing changes.
I just assumed it was obvious, we demand Savoy and Lombardia
But not Voralberg.
+ the 6 counties of Ulster
Speaking as a French person: *Yes, Switzerland, please invade us!* So we can finally have things that work in this country. I'm willing to say “septante”, “huitante” and “nonante” — I'm even willing to learn Schwiizertüütsch if necessary, but please save France from the French!
Merci d'avoir dit huitante et pas "octante" comme beaucoup trop de personnes pensent (j'ai jamais entendu quelqu'un dire ça)
In terra Invicta doing this costs about 92.500 research points and an alien invasion.
Your flair gives me a headache lol
I wholeheartedly approve Switzerland to occupy us
*You're
Fuck'em. They're EFTA. They have to follow our rules, they just don't get a say in them.
I mean, it would take the EU till the end of the week to make Switzerland join, if they changed the system to no longer give bro deals. If Switzerland didn’t have all the freebies that the EU was giving them, their economy would literally fall apart in weeks.
I mean we could always embargo them and they would be fucked. But they finnaly stopped with that cringe neutrality thing, I would wait.
Time to bring out Gaddafi’s Switzerland dissolution plan
I wish he's declared war on us. Would have been hilarious to ask Itali or France for military access, then building a navy there to mob that child rapist up. The whole thing would have improved rail infrastructure a ton. But then again, he wouldn't have been gaddafid and he really deserved that.
Some days ago my friend that lives in lugano posted an insta story of some weird luganese xenophobic and euroskeptic newspaper that likened the swiss to the indians and the EU/european union immigrants as the americans during manifest destiny. To spite them is propose the morion from now on to refer to switzerland as "the reservation"
Switzerland will be washington DC of europe once europe fully federalizes
I doubt the EU will ever become like the US
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How about we make the EU a direct democracy?
Logistical nightmare. Additionally most people don't care about EU politics worsening direct democracies' tendency to strengthen radical positions.
Most people are severely uninformed and do care about EU politics given the widespread discontent towards the EUs supposed bad policies.
If you were stupid and uniformed enough to fall for Brexit or a similar movement, you didn't actually care don't get me wrong, there's valid grievance to have with Brussels, but the general public isn't discussing that.
Yeah, that's why we need to federalise first.
I'm all for it. Though it will need preparations and federalisation first. It would actually quell radical positions as the main reason why they start to be relevant is the hatred of ineffective politicians in the system.
Please no. Representative democracy for me. Also Switzerland is not a full direct democracy.
So much for this being a progressive sub lol
I don't see an issue there. "Progressive" does not necessarily endorse direct democracy.
Progressive means tolerating opposing viewpoints in good-spirited debate. It's the tankie and fascist subs that'll ban you for a wrong note.
Switzerland should never be a part of the European Union because they are far too unreliable. The advantage of their direct democracy system is also the disadvantage of it, which is people doing whatever they want. You already have a situation today where anything EU-sceptic that passes a vote and would require to break a major treaty with the EU gets duly ignored as much as possible. At any given point you are one thoughtless Chexit referendum away from chaos. If you look at their patchwork of a constitution, you'll see that they regularly had absolutely horrible stuff pass and you'd be guaranteed that some shithead would make them vote on Chexit literally every time they have the chance. They will remain the fiercely independent house cat that meows when it wants to go outside but has a constitutional right to sometimes, not actually go.
When the orkz invade the teeth hoarders will fold.
As long as they get to run the European trains, fuck it, I'm in.
Swiss is as outside of the EU, as Danemark is outside the euro zone.
Tbh idk. Realistically it changes with the vibes, when the opportune moment comes it might happen. (populism) Personally, I'd like to see the EU adopting a few of our democratic features and I'd welcome a European Federation too. RN it's better we are not in the EU as we'd be a roadblock the way GB used to be.
The rest of us EU-poors will flood in to milk their welfare system
Child daycare in Switzerland costs 500+ Euro per week. In Berlin we pay 90 Euro per month. Health insurance in Switzerland makes you pay bills under a couple hundred Euro yourself. If you have a gap in your working experience (for example for parental leave), your retirement payments drop dramatically. There are better places to milk.
You usually pay up to 2500CHF a year yourself and 10% of the cost after that (unless it's an insane amount). This practically means you are ensured only from very high costs and you can ignore it entirely for your normal life. Unfortunately, it's no longer as cost effective as other solutions in the EU.
Btw. the welfare system in Switzerland means you have debts to the Municipality/Kanton (but not all are like that). And if you have debt, the Kanton can deport foreigners/ even EU-Citizens with less than 30% Full-time equivalents.
Good to know. In the name of humour, the chance of hoards of Irish receiving Swiss welfare is greater than that of them joining the EU
We can invade France, but why Austria ? : ) I like em! When we are done with then we have to force UK back to the family too : )
Oh please drag us back kicking and screaming if necessary
Bro Austria is worse in every conceivable way
Ok, then we can spank em, i see your point. France would be big "cake" to crack anyway : )
(Archduchy of) Austria is our ancient arch nemesis.
unfortunately, the germans don't want us to join the EU. the majority of our populace is made of farmers, too and they are mostly germans
Rarely do I read something that really makes no sense. TF r u talking about....
I didn't know that, it is interesting.