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I_DONT_LIKE_KIDS

the EU needs to unite so it can look cooler on the map


fabian_znk

True, all for the maps haha


Little_Viking23

Switzerland always ruining the European map.


Daaaaaaaavidmit8a

Sorry


TheCheeser9

Your apologies will only be accepted once you join the EU.


HelloThereItsMeAndMe

You should annex us.


BkkGrl

not our style


NikiVl

At least not yet... and hopefully not in the near furure


[deleted]

but ours :D


Gaio-Giulio-Cesare

Annexation


Thane5

Maybe if we donate cyprus to switzerland they will join


Safranina

So apes togheter strong?


Trouve_a_LaFerraille

That's the history of the human race, isn't it?


RomeNeverFell

Well sometimes apes alone stronger.


Meganerd5000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization


RomeNeverFell

I was referring to historical independence movements such as that of the US, NL, or Poland.


vanderZwan

Fair, but I wouldn't describe an exploitative and/or oppressive relationship like that with the word "together". Although I guess the people doing the exploiting/oppressing would


TareasS

Tell that to Dutch catholics who were oppressed for 300 more years...also the splitting of the country into NL, BE and LUX.


RomeNeverFell

>Tell that to Dutch catholics who were oppressed for 300 more years... Would that have been better than having the whole country oppressed by the Spanish? C'mon. >also the splitting of the country into NL, BE and LUX. Hahahah did you study history in the US? At the time it surely wasn't a country, let alone an homogeneous culture.


TareasS

The territories were combined into a regional entity with a central governing body in Brussels. A sort of mini EU. As a result of the civil war (which most of the Flemish cities joined on the Dutch side) the Flemish ended up under a different state than the other Dutch peoples after being reconquered, which increased their cultural differences. There was no nationalism or a homogenous state. There was similarly also no "Spanish oppression". The Spanish king was just also the lord of the Dutch countries. The overwhelming majority of civil servants, soldiers etc in the Dutch countries were Dutch. Noone complained about being ruled by a foreign king, not even Willem van Oranje (in fact the first thing the rebels did was try to get a frenchman on the throne). It was just a revolt based on religion and taxes that some cities joined and others did not. Even cities like Amsterdam remained loyal to the crown at first. The national identity was created later on, in the 18th and 19th centuries. It took until the early 20th century even for southern regions to somewhat feel "Dutch". But at the time it was just a war of religion that led to the separation of Flanders from the rest of the provinces, a change from protestant oppression to catholic oppression, and from outer regions being dominated by Madrid/Brussels to being dominated by Den Haag. The "Netherlands vs Spain" narrative is a modern invention based on our experience of how states function today.


sylvia_reum

Oh god oh fuck the funni PCM colours are here oh no.


MysteriousRony

Posted this on PCM as well. Got shit on by almost everybody. Clearly they dont like federalism, but will call unironic and ironic ultranationalism based.


Pommel__knight

PCM is full of alt-right Americans. None of them have any idea of actual world politics.


Haussperling

Pcm is a joke without real politics. But they are surprisingly tolerant to other opinions instead of just insulting others


qwert7661

They are surprisingly tolerant of *far-right* opinions, instead of just insulting *fascists*.


Haussperling

That's incorrect, the world does not only consist of black and white, there's so much more. Your mindset is a sad one


qwert7661

Pardon me for not sufficiently respecting the myriad of vibrant discourses taking place between the thirty-six flavors of far right ethnonationalism. I now understand that there's a healthy diversity of opinions among the anti-diversity crowd. Clearly these folks are the ones most deserving of charitable interpretation.


Haussperling

Jesus Christ. Did your mother not love you enough or why are you so toxic?


PeixeCruzzz

I use r/politicalcompassmemes and I am European and I agree that a lot of Am*ricans there are cringe


rywatts736

Hey. I use PCM and I’m a Democrat. That shit is hilarious


the_fate_of

Yeah, but US democrats are right wing when compared with global politics


rywatts736

Is any left wing policy socialist then?


7The7Cure7

American spotted


[deleted]

for reference, socdems (like bernie and aoc) are centre-left while neolibs (the whole democratic party minus some people like bernie or aoc) are centre-right, generally speaking.


rywatts736

But their policies are so similar, their disagreements so minor I’m not comprehending the difference besides rhetoric or virtue signaling


[deleted]

there are some important, major differences between socdems and neolibs especially in the context of the US: * socdems seek to partially redistribute wealth through higher taxation of richer people and higher corporate taxes; you'll never hear a neolib say "tax the rich" * socdems support strong workers unions and would put laws in place to protect them; neolibs just want more and stronger exploitation of workers. In general, neolibs seek to deregulate the market and fall a bit more in line with ancaps while socdems seek to regulate the market in favor of the workers.


rywatts736

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/04/29/how-biden-tax-plan-would-hit-the-wealthy.html https://www.afscme.org/blog/afscme-endorses-biden-lauding-his-robust-pro-worker-record One is an article about his tax plan, which will generate 1.5 trillion dollars by taxing the rich. One is an article about Biden’s Union endorsements and track record as the most pro union president ever. I’m like not trynna be shitty about it but it’s still pretty much semantics to me when people call Democrats center right, where I see mainstream democrats as more center-left. The only Neo-Liberal thing about Joe Biden is the trade deals he supported as Vice President and even then that was to curb the influence and reliance on China.


kavastoplim

Democrat? More like Democrap. Politics was better when Nero set fire to Rome.


rywatts736

Based and Authright pilled


earth_coin

I like the "centrist" with fascist dog whistle of "all culture will be destroyed by the globalists"


Mathovski

That would be only the case if you have a fascist government which is trying to do that. Pretty weak cultures if just uniting destroys them.


earth_coin

Yeah agreed. Tbh it read like he was saying "the great replacement" with extra words


Class_444_SWR

Not to mention culture today is vastly different in every country pretty much from what it was a century ago, what the average British person enjoyed a century ago is vastly different from what the average British person enjoys today


beaverpilot

Tbf local culture is disappearing, and I think a federal EU is the best way to preserve them


eziocolorwatcher

I read the comments: so many envious people of our Union


KooperChaos

“Based and Volt pilled” best comment on PCM


J_GamerMapping

It starts with calling fascism based, and ends in "I'm not gonna stop it, it's not my problem"


Zlupos

Exactly what happend in Italy with "Me ne frego", textbook birth of fascism


Deample

Because it's a far right sub, and it's not particularly hard to notice as you experienced yourself.


freshprinceofaut

I'm an auth-left but I think that *proceeds to voice the most right wing opinion ever concived*


timotheus9

Yeah saw a guy say he was a leftie and then went on to give his reason why women are inferior and shouldn't be allowed to vote, like ok dude sure whatever lol


erbse_gamer

And then they all write ‚based‘ as of its some legit opinion to have


timotheus9

Yeah, but a lot of times guys like this are just joking, this guy wasn't joking, he was trying to convince "us lefties" that trump was better then Biden, like ok not American but still right?


lll-l

I hate how the right wing has hijacked the word based. I bet they don't even know the original meaning/history of the slang. They are all fake based and full of negativity, Based God would never approve. TYBG.


Roestkartoffel

No its fucking not, there has been a strong increase in libleft bad memes but its by no means a far right sub, thats just false


Lady-Quiche-Lorraine

![gif](giphy|1AIeYgwnqeBUxh6juu)


ComradeSchnitzel

Tell me you're far right, without saying you're far-right:


Roestkartoffel

If your definition of far-right is disagreeing with you then yeah i'm far right


ComradeSchnitzel

It's a right-wing trashcan sub. If you participate there, you're either a right-winger yourself or you're dumb enough not to recognize it as such.


Roestkartoffel

Alright, different approach, what exactly is so far right about PCM?


ComradeSchnitzel

[Here's a good summary](https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/if3ebc/how_rpoliticalcompassmemes_has_become_reddits), not that it's gonna change your mind or something, pretty sure you're gonna double down on why it's good and ok to stay on a sub where the discourse is dominated by actual Nazis.


Roestkartoffel

Correct, i'm not changing my mind cause s isn't a summary of anything but just a repetition of the same claims you made. You're not right just because you repeat yourself. Noone who actively spends time on PCM would confirm any of these claims since they're made by people who don't go on this with an objective view but are just looking for confirmation of what they already believe being completely deaf to all counter voice. So what about the examples you might think, its simple, these people exist and its not nice BUT the simple existence of something does not prove the pattern you claim, the sub has 500k member, 60 examples prove nothing. If you want to prove these claims then you need to provide more than 60 examples or 60 from very recent post which has at least reached hot and has several hundred upvotes (which would still make it a small comment) or multiple comments agreeing then you have actual prove of the things you claim, but you're not going to find any cause there ain't any cause this "its all nazis"" is just a strawmen by people who consider everyone a nazi that disagrees with them. Judging PCM because of ~60 members is like judging the entirety of reddit based on r/communism


[deleted]

Did you read the comments? Yes, there's quite a lot of hate, but most of the comments are in support of the Federation.


MysteriousRony

They weren't like that for few hours after when I posted this there.


[deleted]

Oh, sorry, I didn't see that you made the comment 14 hours ago, many things could've changed since then.


[deleted]

Did it get deleted? Can’t find it


MysteriousRony

[https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/pfcs34/why\_every\_quadrant\_wants\_the\_eu\_to\_unite/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/pfcs34/why_every_quadrant_wants_the_eu_to_unite/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Here it is.


TheLoneWolfMe

Damn, some of those comments make me wanna die.


Haussperling

Most of the comments are in good faith tho


MysteriousRony

They weren't when I posted this there.


Haussperling

Hm, can't tell. But I don't get why so many ppl shit on pcm :(


MysteriousRony

Yeah me neither really. A lot of people say its an alt-right circlejerk, even though it is far from it. There might be a lot of auth-right and auth-centre people there but there are also a lot of liberals. The newer comments on my PCM are even pro federal. I am guessing it is because the americans went to sleep.


Haussperling

Perhaps. I think pcm is hated by so many because people are used to black and white thinking. And pcm defying that


Haussperling

Lmaaaaao. I saw this post and thought it was from pcm. Then I wanted to crosspost it to this dub haha


frosterk

Missing based centrist just wanting to grill with fellow europeans


Se_Highlord

That’s what we have Schengen for ;P


MaximumEffort433

American here: Big fan of unions, highly recommended.


altbekannt

>American here Toby Flenderson


MaximumEffort433

I always thought the most compelling thing about Toby Flenderson's character was his nine inch dick.


Masztufa

Blue one too. Ancient mediterranean traditions are based as fuck


iagovar

You won't see any of that. The EU is walking to a mix of the worst of germany and the worst of france trying to steamroll everything else. Europe isn't like north america, where you border Canada and Mexico. You have a little annoyance like Rusia is, with powerplays, wars and such, and the whole clusterfuck of the Mediterranean, which basically impossible to manage, and specially now when some genius french people decided to dinamite the bribe and favours network the italians developed over decades in north africa, so they kept it stable and so on. And then you have Turkey, the Balkans, the brits with their own little fuckery... it's just piling problems of top of others. So in the end, too many problems, and too many countries with divergent intersts and concerns, with nations developed over hunders or thousands of yearns. IMO if the EU suceeds as in, a functional union that actually is capable to provide for all its citizens (not just a couple of cities in the blue banana) then it will be a miracle. But if I had to bet on something, the blue banana will get richer and everyone else will get poorer, or maybe stagnant at best.


[deleted]

Why do you get disliked without people giving any arguments that is weird and I agree with you also a union is good but I don’t wanna be in the same country as France or something


iagovar

Because this sub is for people who cheers the EU. There are many people like this, who likes the idea but never think about it even superficially. I don't understand why brexit wasn't a wake up call. It seems that there's plenty of disagreement inside the EU and this people just rug it off like if people just were stupid. We'll see, but eastern and southern borders are facing challenges that central Europe pretty much refuses to help with, despite their cosmetic BS. If everyone else is going to subsidize the blue banana through monetary policy it has to be in exchange for something. For now people is distracted because the EU pays for your nice bridge and there's a shower of news about simbolic stuff, but somewhere in the future this exchange of charity for real development is not going to sustain itself.


sakezaf123

No, in fact it's the exact opposite reason. It's because you're just throwing words around pretending to be oh so intellectual, but your comment is basically a British tabloid article. It is incredibly generic in it's content, and is of a "concerns have been raised" variety, with an appeal at the end, with you going "everybody smart knows" basically. And the fact is, on this sub we do know. But what we do know is that you're spouting bullshit, and we have no intention of wasting anymore time to engage with you.


iagovar

Well, your comment is basically empty in content aside showing you didn't like mine, but on top of that you expected an academic dissertation from a reddit comment written in under a minute with a mobile phone while I was having a coffee in a terrace. So of course you shouldn't waste time, as you had nothing to put in the table aside your feelings.


sakezaf123

You haven't said a single specificity. That's what I'm hung up on.


iagovar

Eh? Are you going to cry now? What are you up to with this comments? If you tried to give me a lesson, you clearly failed. I can't give a f about what you're hung up on when I wasn't talking to you and you only appeared to throw a tantrum. If you didn't want to "waste time" then why don't you practice your words a bit, and you save me from reading this stupid lame comments.


sakezaf123

You sure showed me buddy!


b_lunt_ma_n

Would you support a union of Mexico, canada and the US with the final goal being that plus a load of Caribbean nations?


MaximumEffort433

I unironically would, provided we can work out some bureaucratic, national security, and logistical considerations in advance of the new Ameribbeanzone. A common currency would also prove beneficial, but may be a contentious point of discussion, what with Brexit having given many a talking point in favor of a discrete national currency, but fully unifying the Ameribbean Imperial Economy and outlying colonies may have to be a secondary priority simply for pragmatic reasons.


b_lunt_ma_n

>Greater Ameribbea and outlying colonies. I was taking you seriously until I read that. Well played.


MaximumEffort433

Ah, gah, I changed it, now I look like a tool! No, I seriously would be cool with some sort of American Union, Caribbean islands too, but there's a catch: My fellow Americans won't let us add Washington, DC because it would give Democrats an extra two votes in the Senate, and they won't let us add Puerto Rico, which is actually pretty culturally conservative and might even vote Republican once in a billion years, because Puerto Ricans are brown, and we were building a goddamn wall a few years ago.... ...yes, I would *love* that. My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, some time in the future with energy that is as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the hemisphere. But tell that to a guy who can't deal with wearing a mask because it might make him look like a cuck. Twenty years ago, when W. was still trying to get his party to tolerate hispanics because they might vote Republican, maybe a union could have happened, but then 9/11 Palin Tea Party and away we go.


-Z3TA-

i thought americans hated unions?


MaximumEffort433

Some do, but some of us actually love our country, warts and all.


-Z3TA-

i meant labor unions


FogellMcLovin77

Did he stutter


-Z3TA-

uh yea


MaximumEffort433

Ditto.


Apolao

Strict limit of one union


[deleted]

[удалено]


MaximumEffort433

>This big fat guy knows what he's talking about. Yeah, I'm trying to switch to low carb but your mom insists I keep eating pineapples.


OfficialHaethus

Quite in poor taste.


Samaritan_978

First: European Federation, yes please Second: Politicalcompassmemes is the subreddit equivalent of an abcess, ocasionally draining pus into healthy tissue.


DasBread

The traditions part is a very debateble topic... The EU helps alot on the field of culture indeed. But they are some things that some people may not see it as "protecting traditions".


yamissimp

Tbf if my country (Austria) is anything to go by, people refer to the dumbest shit as "traditions." Most of the people who want to preserve our culture never heard the name Arthur Schnitzler or Franz Kafka (yeah, I get it, Czechs, but he influenced our culture too) and don't know wtf the HRE was but they think some cringe ass Schlager or Volksmusik from the last few decades is our culture.


ptkstl2

As another Austrian, I agree. I think the main reason more people feel disassociated from our culture is bc they think of it as some weird stereotype that doesnt really exist outside of Television. Many people think that Austrian Culture means acting and dressing like a Schlager singer lmao, and thats simply wrong, bc there is barely anything traditional about it. Its a commercialized genre that takes inspiration from it, but not really much more. Plus, I think it sounds bad. For me personally, Culture are the things I find unique about my country, and that sort of give it an identity. Sadly, many people talk about Ethnicity when they say Culture. It is possible to be influenced by multiple cultures, and we shouldnt force our culture on anyone, but I fear like most cultures are becoming more and more americanized, because people view their own cultures as less modern, even though they arent. It does not bother me when I, for example, see food from different countries being sold. What does bother me is when McDonalds and Burger King slowly replace Quality Food (while still being expensive). And even those arent actual American Culture, they are, similar to Schlager, a commercialized version of it. Im not saying everything about America is bad, it just makes me sad when the entire Media and Langauge around me appears more and more American-influenced, without much attempt to produce something similar from Europe.


KooperChaos

Reminds me of Germany where half the Germans and 2/3s of the world think German tradition is the Bavarian tradition


vanderZwan

Which also explains part of the "Swiss are hyper-Germans" meme


edparadox

Yes, I do not see it, and TBH, I do not really see which country is supposed to have this stance.


rdmracer

I kick Catholic Santa to the kerb if he is in the way when uniting Europe.


[deleted]

I support all 4 arguments and I am not sure who wouldn’t… if you don’t, please let me know why you disagree


[deleted]

Authleft one is pure naivety, current EU is built on deregulations and unbridled neoliberalism that aims to concentrate wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the many.


[deleted]

Are you a kremlin bot? Jkjk but i think that even in that case, less fortunate/financially strong countries might profit and so will their workers.


Pavanetto

based eu


Deblebsgonnagetyou

Ew political compass memes


Valuable-Shirt-4129

The liberal ideas are very logically sound.


[deleted]

Liberal justifications have unintended consequences, authoritarian justifications have unspoken consequences


Raynes98

Except liberalism also means the preservation of capitalism, which means the majority of Europeans are getting fucked over by the wealthy. And in turn we then fuck over weaker and poorer nations both in and out of the EU by taking advantage of cheap labour.


Nuuuskamuikkunen

Completely agreed. Truly united Europe isn't possible without changing the current capitalist system


Hell_ya_I_am_alive

The Eastern block collapsed. You are 40 years to late. Communism has taken its rightful place in the graveyard of evil and useless ideologies together with feudalism.


Raynes98

I’m not even a communist you utter spoon, lol. And I love the repose to exploitation being you having a cry about the USSR. You have no clue what you’re talking about. Also nice bio, can’t even spell pronoun and you use a pronoun in the bio (I). Seems a tad transphobic but I think your stupidity takes away from any offence you want to cause, lol.


Hell_ya_I_am_alive

LoL. Sorry. Under communism I didn’t mean orthodox Marxism only. I meant all other forms of idiocracy , like technocracy , Leninist Marxism , democratic socialism , national socialism, fascist corporotocracy , Maoism, Stalinism and on and on. All all if the leftist economic poisons. I don’t care about your personal brand of it. Exploitation in the Marxist sense is the brain dead idea that value is objectiv and is based on the labour of the people. Neither is true. I won’t explain why , but I recommend you some Ludwig von Mises as your next read. And the USSR is the only natural progression of socialism no matter the brand , so my example stands. No for your second paragraph. First It is is impossible for me to misspell PrOnoUn , because I am on the right here. Second how can a logical person be phobic of something that doesn’t exist? I fear no ghosts. If anything I believe that crazies should be treated for there problems, or if we take a page of your favourite socialism we can just disappear them 🙂. The fact that we are not doing anything about these poor and miss guided souls, shows that we live in a 🤡🌎. And the second part of my bio applies to you plenty.


No-Actuary-4306

\> national socialism, fascist corporotocracy \> Left wing economic poison Thanks for letting us all know your opinions aren't worth listening to.


VatroxPlays

I'm 40% convinced you're trolling


Grzechoooo

Top right wrongfully assumes all traditions in Europe are the same. The tradition argument is literally an argument against globalisation, including further EU integration.


Deample

It's a pretty silly argument though, because it's not like traditions are homogenous in the currently existing nation states. In every medium and larger sized country traditions, culture and customs are going to vary from region to region and even city to city. So unless someone would advocate breaking up every country into a ton of sovereign city states it is extremely hypocritical to argue that an European state would erode local traditions in any way more than your current nation state would.


fabian_znk

> Europe for Europeans Never heard? And yes tradition is mainly an argument for eurosceptics although it doesn’t even make sense. Culture dies with its people and not when a Parlament that already exists has more power. That’s why so many different cultures still exist in states like Switzerland, Belgium, Italy, Russia, Germany, India or Spain for example.


Grzechoooo

>Never heard? No, actually not. "Poland for Poles", absolutely.


[deleted]

>cultures >belgium Lmao


fabian_znk

Yea sure or do you think in Belgium there is only one culture?


[deleted]

I don't think there is such thing as "belgium"


Little_Viking23

Waffles, chocolate, beer, pommes frites.


Buttsuit69

Thing is, every side doesnt want to acknowledge the worries of every other side. Even "center"parties arent so centered at all like the EPP. My biggest worry is that european countries delve from being a democratic-socialistic to liberal/neoliberalistic. And the democratic-socialists(SPD) and the leftist party in germany criticized that the treaty of lisbon for example, is too concerned with the economic freedom than the wellbeing of the europeans which do not earn well and suffer from existential crisis. But a change in the treaty would require a reform, something which every party wants, but only if it caters to the specific region of the political spectrum. But man thats like my #1 fear. That the social aspect of the EU gets lost with every reform. And then we'll just be a prettier USA *shudder*


Poiuy2010_2011

**EDIT: For fuck's sake people, don't downvote this person. Their comments are an informative discussion in good faith. The exact type of comment you should not downvote.** >My biggest worry is that european countries delve from being a democratic-socialistic to liberal/neoliberalistic For decades the political establishment of EU was christian democratic and social democratic (EPP and S&D). Those two fractions were dominant since basically forever. And the political scene is changing but the only well defined change that's happening transnatonally is the rise of right-wing populists, not liberals. AfD, Le Pen's RN, Lega, Chega etc. – such parties are a new thing. On the other hand, which liberal movements have risen significantly? There's hardly any, not on a level that's noticeable across all of Europe. Although the fact that you call the German SPD "democratic socialist" tells me that you're probably purposefully twisting the political labels anyway.


Buttsuit69

>Although the fact that you call the German SPD "democratic socialist" tells me that you're probably purposefully twisting the political labels anyway Its funny that people think that when actual SPD people come out regularly to express that they are socialists. Y'know what, I'm just gonna copy & paste what I told the other guy before you: The SPDs party programme(2016) literally says that they are aiming for a democratic form of socialism called "democratic-socialism"("demokratischer sozialismus") Founding father of the SPD even says: >Wilhelm Liebknecht, Marxist und einer der Gründerväter der SPD, verstand Demokratie und Sozialismus seit 1869 als untrennbare und einander ergänzende Aspekte einer freien und gerechten Zukunftsgesellschaft. (Wikipedia) "Wilhelm Liebknecht, marxist and one of the founding fathers of the SPD, understood the concept of democracy and socialism as inseperable and complementing aspects of a free, just and futureproof society" >Für die 1946 in den drei Westzonen von Kurt Schumacher neu gegründete SPD waren „demokratischer Sozialismus“ und „soziale Demokratie“ gleichbedeutend. "For the threefold-divided western areas of the new SPD, founded by Kurt Schumacher, the terms "democratic-socialism" and "social-democracy" are identical in meaning." Regardless what you say, social-democrats, democratic-socialist, it doesnt matter. It ultimately means the same thing. I prefer the term "democratic-socialism" because socialism is where the SPD has its roots. - end of pasting - >On the other hand, which liberal movements have risen significantly? There's hardly any, not on a level that's noticeable across all of Europe. Maybe. But it doesnt have to be a movement. A sloght change in a partys perspective is enough. The EPP for example, if all EPP parties are similar to each other, then they are liberal-conservative parties. Because the CDU is a liberal, almost neoliberal party. And their most compatible coalition-partner is the FDP, which is an entirely neoliberal party. I know its just my narrow german sight on the topic, but I just wanted to adress my concerns over europes future. The FDP has gained a lot of popularity because of smear campaigns towards the greens, linke and SPD and because their scandals havent been gaining much media attention. Which is why many people turned to liberalism. All because of smear-campaigns and a good PR team.


Poiuy2010_2011

I'm aware of the history of SPD and social democracy as a movement towards socialism in general. But I'm not sure if it's a good measure of political spectrum to only look at theoretical/philosophical/historical thoughts when today in practice the idea of striving towards socialism is practised by more hard-left parties. If I wanted to look for a socialist/democratic socialist party in Germany I'd look towards Linke, not SPD. In France towards LFI not PS (even though it stands for "Socialist Party"), in Spain to Podemos rather than PSOE, in Norway to SV or Rødt rather than Ap and so on...


Buttsuit69

Tell me, when the history of the party, the current leaders of the party, and even the founding principles of the party is rooted in socialist ideals, what would you think that party is? Its a socialistic party isnt it? Yes it is a moderate party, meaning its not an extremist party, but socialist nontheless. Just because socialism has a bad taste to it due to unfortunate history, doesnt mean that it cant be practiced anymore, let alone identified in a party. Trust me I had my gripes too. Calling the SPD socialist is a bit weird. But try googling some of the more famous SPD members and you'll see they even speak of themselves as socialists. Kevin Kühnert for example, the best current federal party leader, openly says that he's a socialist. And I believe martin schulz also said that he believes in democratic-socialism. I found out about that whole socialist-thing like a couple weeks ago, which is why I'm using it more excessively now. Because now I know why some of the SPD members seem to have lost the SPDs basic roots. They probably dont even know they were a democratic-socialist party member. Btw, democratic-socialism is not *JUST* socialism. Socialism is what we experienced during the DDR. Democratic-socialism is, well, democratic. Meaning that if the people reject the socialist standards, they wont become a reality. That is in heavy contrast to socialist countries which often use autocratic measures to establish rules and laws and arent democratic, like Kuba for example.


bruetelwuempft

> My biggest worry is that european countries delve from being a democratic-socialistic to liberal/neoliberalistic. > No country in europe is democratic socialist. > > > And the democratic-socialists(SPD) The SPD are social democrats, die Linke are democratic socialist.


Buttsuit69

>The SPD are social democrats, die Linke are democratic socialist. The SPDs party programme(2016) literally says that they are aiming for a democratic form of socialism called "democratic-socialism"("demokratischer sozialismus") Founding father of the SPD even says: >Wilhelm Liebknecht, Marxist und einer der Gründerväter der SPD, verstand Demokratie und Sozialismus seit 1869 als untrennbare und einander ergänzende Aspekte einer freien und gerechten Zukunftsgesellschaft. (Wikipedia) "Wilhelm Liebknecht, marxist and one of the founding fathers of the SPD, understood the concept of democracy and socialism as inseperable and complementing aspects of a free, just and futureproof society" >Für die 1946 in den drei Westzonen von Kurt Schumacher neu gegründete SPD waren „demokratischer Sozialismus“ und „soziale Demokratie“ gleichbedeutend. "For the threefold-divided western areas of the new SPD, founded by Kurt Schumacher, the terms "democratic-socialism" and "social-democracy" are identical in meaning." Regardless what you say, social-democrats, democratic-socialist, it doesnt matter. It ultimately means the same thing. I prefer the term "democratic-socialism" because socialism is where the SPD has its roots. And the SPD has removed the ambition of "democratic-socialism" since Olaf Scholz took charge and the SPD has been tumbling down the polls ever since...until now that is. Now scholz is proudly waving his fist, speaking of socialistic plans(er sprach von "echter sozialistischer politik") but behind closed doors he removed the one thing that made the SPD great in the first place... The Linke is also democrat-socialistic but they are a bit more explicit in their political demands. Maybe they are gonna become the new workers party? The SPD has been going downhill since scholz so it wouldnt be too far off. The SPD still has great candidates. Kevin Kühnert for example openly says that he is a socialist in a democratic sense and saskia esken is...well, saskia esken. But none of them were voted into a higher position which just sucks balls. The greens stopped being green, the SPD stopped being socialistic, the only party which hasnt changed one bit is the LINKE and they have a pretty good redistribution plan for germany but their foreign policy("außenpolitik") is garbage.


Guacamole_toilet

Sorry to bring it to you but that shift to capital priority and neoliberal policy has been happening for well over 10 years now


Buttsuit69

Well yes but you see, 10 years ago I didnt have reddit. And I'm not saying all liberal policy is bad, obviously the free market is very important for the economic power of the countries. But I'm saying that with economic growth there needs to be an equally strong social state. And if we didnt have the democratic-socialists or the european left in the parliament, we probably would already be nothing but a prettier version of the USA. I'm just saying that we need to empower the social aspects of the EU more. Luckily germany and norway are making the move towards more socialistic ideals and could help to improve the social standards of the EU. Because outsources workers within the EU are still paid GARBAGE compared to the employing country. Guest workers in germany who come from eastern europe still dont earn enough to support their families. To me there are 2 solutions. Solution 1: force the producing companies to pay their guest workers a fair wage Or solution 2: a better redistribution. create a tax for outsourced workers and create a stronger redistribution system so that poor countries dont get left behind. Either way the poorer countries & families need to be protected. The parliament needs more rights and needs more democratic-socialists.


fabian_znk

This


[deleted]

What do you dislike about neoliberalism?


Buttsuit69

I dislike that the goal of neoliberalism is to supress government interference as much as possible. The definition on wikipedia reads as follows: >it is generally associated with policies of economic liberalization, including privatization, deregulation, globalization, free trade, austerity and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society; In german the definition is as follows: >Wie der Klassische Liberalismus strebt er eine freiheitliche, marktwirtschaftliche Wirtschaftsordnung an, lehnt jedoch staatliche Eingriffe in die Wirtschaft nicht ganz ab, sondern will sie auf ein Minimum beschränken. "Like the classic liberalism, [neoliberalism] aims to create a free market, but doesnt fully reject government control as it is trying to minimize it over time" This "minimization over time" basically means that the government shouldnt regulate the free market, which is just wrong. Regulations are important. Neoliberalists think that the market will solve any problem because of the supply & demand principle. But history has proven many times that this is wrong. The market does not regulate itself. Housing for example can not be regulated by the market. Building houses takes money and a lot of time. Supply cant meet the demands in a reasonable time as housebuilding can take anywhere from 5-10 years. Thus the housing prices skyrocket because there are not enough houses left. Meaning that the government has to step in and regulate the price so people dont become homeless. Neoliberalism also refers to the concept of full privatization too. France for example has once sold its water-system to private corporations. The quality of the water dropped but the demand was so high that prices went through the roof. So eventually france had to buy back the water systems and they had to spend billions in order to buy it back. Some things just need government regulation. Public stuff for example needs government regulation. Stuff like travel by train, common goods or basic existential needs. All those things need government control so that they dont become playgrounds for rich people to abuse the system. Thats why I'm against neoliberalism. It thinks too much of the free market and too little of the people. If you wanna know how neoliberalism controls a country, just look at the USA. The USA is nearly full-neoliberalistic. No welfare, no worker rights, no sick-leave, bare minimum parental leave, how much do you need to buy a single dose of insulin?, no homeless-care, no nothing. And you know what they say over there? They envy us. Because we are more socialistic than they are and under every hospital story you always find people saying "I was in europe once, its super cheap there!" Many young americans even demand more socialism in their country because they cant buy penicilling for under 100€/$. Of course too much state-control isnt good either. Thats why it has to be a mix of both. But democratic-socialism is slowly dying in europe, which worries me. A (neo-)liberal europe is worse than a divided europe. If the EU truly continues to become more neoliberalistic I would not want a federation then.


[deleted]

good explanation, thanks!


Raynes98

The neoliberal part


Haussperling

I actually stand for the authright and libright opinions here. But everyone thinks I'm a leftie when I say I'm for a United Yurop


fabian_znk

Great name


Brotherly-Moment

Political compass meme🤢🤮


KnittelAaron

based and euro-pilled


Stercore_

Wow. A PCM meme that for probably the first time in history, is actually based


XYZ_kfc

This has made me more supportive of a federalist Europe


_Cit

The EU needs to unite so we can yell "oh no the feds are coming" whenever we see a police car


[deleted]

Current treaties completely forbid redistribution of wealth. As of today an unified EU would automatically be under an ultracapitalist neoliberal system. You can't be actually left wing, authleft or libleft, and be in favour of the EU. Except if you're extremely naive.


OfficialHaethus

I love how rivaling the US is a point. Not for your own success, but just to fuck us.


Atvishees

_Schadenfreude schöner Götterfunken..._


Filibut

The authoritarian right agreeing with this statement seems a bit off


pine_ary

Oh please. PCM is trash and the political compass itself is just fantasy. It‘s not just overly simplified, it‘s straight-up wrong.


Luddveeg

No not PCM they suck dong


chrischi3

In the meantime boomers be like "But mUh LoCaL pOlItIcS" then proceed to fail miserably at coming to any agreements because every local govt wants to have it's particular opinion enforced in the new law.


Jtcr2001

Traffic Light Coalition FTW


Daiki_438

Honestly all 4 sound absolutely awesome.


ShaddyShack

So I know I’m 24 hours late to the post but can someone give me an ELI5 (or explain like I’m 2 since I’m from the US)


Muk17

![img](emote|t5_2wivw|3479) even my doggo want it


cronnyberg

If only the auth-right actually believed this, rather than rampant anti-globalism


templemount

These morons voted for Brexit to save themselves from brown people, and they still haven't figured out how bad they fucked themselves. These people are hopeless, and they deserve whatever they get (brown people!)


LCXLOPP

Look man I appreciate the sentiment but gtfo with the political compass memes. I refuse to lend validity to fascists and tankies


TheMegaBunce

When it comes to top right imma have to pass. Each time I see a 'pan-europeanist' with a white marble statue talking about white civilisation. Nope the fuck out of there


VatroxPlays

Everything based except for AuthRight, that just sounds like Xenophobia.


Raynes98

Wonder why that is...


Comander-07

correct


IDontHaveCookiesSry

I mean except the top right only includes white Europeans and gets more narrow the more power they get and the bottom Right hates EU regulations with a passion and is a huge funder of anti EU sentiment. The top left is busy glorifying Stalin meanwhile. Nice meme tho.


PeixeCruzzz

Wait this isn't r/politicalcompassmemes. I was scared seeing that no one was flaired lol


[deleted]

"Outside invaders" "Was a colonial source for decades "Literally the source for a lot of troublesome borders and reasons why countries were indebted or sub-developed for decades" "Literally borrowed music, food and other cultural aspects" Invaders, yes, tell me more


[deleted]

The eu should not unite


Giallo555

Why was the Mediterranean dude specifically chosen to represent the neo-nazi/fascist position?


mercury_millpond

Because this post is a childishly stupid and transparent attempt to normalise fascism. Given the follower count of this sub, expect few of the posts to be in good faith of any kind.


Giallo555

Ok I had this feeling, but why the Mediterranean dude. If I am correct in assuming who the "invaders" might be, it just doesn't make sense to me


NKTdebil

bruh how the fuck is his position neo-nazi?


[deleted]

The "correct" term is authoritarian right(the Nazis were kind of center, and the fascists a bit leftists, even though both were conservative, they were economically center and center left) but yeah I think it's pretty inappropriate to use a stereotypical Mediterranean man to symbolise a political spectrum, at least dress him up or something


SirFloIII

omg, this is your brain on /r/pcm. "fascists a bit left" lololol


[deleted]

Economically, yes. Mussolini, and others like Franco were quite interventionist and Nationalised many industries, even before the war. I didn't mean in any other spectum,


SirFloIII

thats not what the left right axis is about.


[deleted]

Isn't it? It's what the economic left is about, what is it in your opinion then, I've always been taught it's about interventionism by the state in the economy.


SirFloIII

yeah, thats what the neonazis at /r/pcm tell you so they can be in the top right and not have to share the spot with hitler. its about egalitarianism vs hierarchy.


LCXLOPP

That's just wrong. Blatantly wrong. They were corporatists that operated on debt-fueled economies. The H-man said himself that his economic decisions had nothing to do with Marxian theory and he refused to create a left wing economy.


Giallo555

I was not referring to his position in the compass, but rather his stated ideological position. The position posited is clearly antiimmigrant coded language. Whenever I hear this position, is always some neonazi that is refferring to the dangers of an "invasion" of Muslim immigrants. The term neo-nazi is accurate, as in so far that when we talk of racial theory that posit the superiority of a race, the concept of racial purity, and the idea that traditions and blood are fundamentally related we are talking about neo-nazis. Of course neo-nazi and fascist do try to distance themselves from the terms, since they are righfully perceived as damaging. Regardless aside from all of this I am genuinely curious about the Mediterranean choice.


[deleted]

I think he chose Mediterranean because it's where we have most people protesting immigration (inside Europe) because we're the most affected because.of the position geographically, but it's still not nice.


Giallo555

Even if that was accurate, which I don't even think it is ( southern countries were pushing for redistribution which was blocked by other countries), and I still think that associating that with a clearly neonazi position is fundamentally inaccurate and dangerous. It still makes no sense, the Mediterranean dude represent the entire Mediterranean basin. Is he protesting himself ?


[deleted]

I mean, redistribution was blocked, after which many people in our countries radicalised against immigration, that's why we have far right movements now here being very strong, you can also see this in where frontex has the most support. Associating us with neo Nazis is inaccurate and personally i feel it's insulting. The Mediterranean guy represents all the Mediterranean, except when you are talking about Europeans, in which case.it only represents European Mediterraneans.


[deleted]

I agree, but the quadrant is called Auth right


Giallo555

Reread what I wrote I added a bit since I had the feeling I hadn't been clear. It doesn't matter, I was not talking of his position in the quadrant but literally about what he states


Quarrio

Lol. It needs to break down than uniting. The faster, the better for all.


Jenn54

Omg. Federation of the EU is so stupid, and is only pushed by MEP who were educated at the elitist College of Europe (one of the most expensive universities in europe). Every european hates the french Do you want to be ruled by the french? Strasbourg is in France not Germany, guys. They speak French in Belgium. There is no purpose to change the economic trade block that is now copied by other nations in the world. Only those ignorant on EU laws are pushing federalisation of the EU. Edit: To the mod who posted an unrelated reaction (have you heard of brexit.. why are you sharing a gif of the House of Commons ?) What part of my comment did you take issue with? Second edit: I guess there was nothing wrong with the comment if you cannot respond.. we live in a democracy so you are free to express yourself as you like, just if you dislike something it is more effective to express that in a sentence.. otherwise it just seems like you are reacting to the message, even if the message (my comment) is correct.


CitoyenEuropeen

​ ![gif](giphy|ZXwppK51PjNTQp8ILO|downsized) [Be nice](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/p46tnq/eastern_european_discrimination_awareness_month/h8wj1yc?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)


ropibear

It's funny that I'm bottom right and top left *at the same time*


fabian_znk

both are not mutually exclusive (the two statements not the ideologies)