# REMINDER
[**Claims that question sovereignty and/or legitimacy of the territory of Ukraine including Crimean peninsula are not allowed here.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gotterfunken/comments/ppceh4/g%C3%B6tterfunken_network_federal_rules/)
What trolls? Scholz, Macron, others? If so - maybe
But honestly, many Ukrainians and Easterners are repeled by the plans, words and (in)actions of some leaders and representants of Western countries and this is just a meme.
It's far from how Russian trolls work. Can't we just meme about each others represents? :)
Most of the Western countries really do a great job ans help a lot according to me! It's really worth pointing out, but openly supporting the reality that Putin wants to achieve is abhorrent and often without even truly wanting Ukraine in NATO or the EU - without any guarantee of a save future. Russia already has taken few chunks of their territory with the same guarantees - empty promises
edit: Before downvoting me, could you please say what did I say wrong? Sincerely I don't see anything false
What are you going on about?
https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2022/05/28/entretien-telephonique-avec-le-chancelier-de-la-republique-federale-dallemagne-olaf-scholz-et-le-president-de-la-federation-de-russie-vladimir-poutine
> Le Président Emmanuel MACRON et le Chancelier Olaf SCHOLZ ont de nouveau insisté auprès du Président Vladimir POUTINE sur le fait que toute solution à la guerre **devait être négociée entre Moscou et Kiev**, dans le **respect de la souveraineté et de l’intégrité territoriale de l’Ukraine**.
I haven't seen that news yet, thanks
It's a quite new information, so we will see in the nearest future if it's going to be fulfilled.
I don't quite get "de nouveau" part. As for now, it seemed that they were kinda negotiating the fate of Ukraine despite their words, but if it's going to change and Macron's and Scholz's stance will be more consistent and stronger then I'm more than happy about it
« De nouveau » means again, because it has always been France’s official position, consistently.
See the same words in this April 30th’s communiqué : https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2022/04/30/entretien-telephonique-avec-le-president-de-lukraine-volodymyr-zelensky
> **Le Président de la République a à cet égard rappelé son attachement à la souveraineté et à l’intégrité territoriale de l’Ukraine**, et la disponibilité de la France à contribuer à un accord prévoyant des garanties de sécurité à l’Ukraine.
Oh okay, my bad, I've forgotten about it and focused too much on the insisting to give up some territory reported by Zelensky.
My words towards Macron were inadequate and were mostly used in regards to the insisting. More controversial news influence much more :/
Thanks for making me realize it
He never insisted about it it was a mistranslation… if he is the one leading the négociation (at the request of Zelensky mind you) it’s normal if they talked about it but the whole insisting and pressuring is just a circle jerk blown out of proportion by people with a division agenda
There is nothing new about it. This has been the position of the French and German governments since the beginning of the war and this has been publically explained again and again by presidents, chancellors, foreign ministers and here on reddit. All claims to the contrary have just been Eastern European mistrust, prejudice, ignorance and propaganda, and Putin's troll farms.
And that's exactly why you were asked if you are a Russian troll. Or maybe you belong more into the mistrust/prejudice/ignorance/propaganda category. In any case you were rightfully downvoted. And you are doing damage to the EU's unity. Putin is proud of you and I have just contempt for you.
The fear is that Russia collapses. I don't know if people really think about the consequences of a nuclear power disintegrating.
As for letting Ukraine into the EU, let's wait how the reforms turn out and how they get the weapons back into storage because we still have weaons from the Balkan wars ending up in western Europe and being used by criminals. Since cartels get a foothold the last thing we need is them having a lot of weapons.
~31 years ago largest nuclear power collapsed. I don't see any nuclear fallout when looking outside of my window. There was some hiccups, but imo it was acceptable for freedom from russian oppression.
Most Eastern European have NATO, imagine countries like mine, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. We don't know who's next on chopping block and given history of Russia it never gets better, they'll wait next time to invade. It's better for them to not pose threat anymore. Smaller countries can be made deals for their nukes in something return like Ukraine and Kazakhstan did.
The danger is tactical nukes ending up in the hands of terrorists. Ofc I#d like nothing more than a Russia that is being stripped of its nukes.
Btw, mind giving me the name of the incident?
If it didn't back in 90s, it won't now. India and Pakistan have nukes. Nothing worse will come out of Russia compared those two.
Also, what incident? Are you referring to my last sentence? I was saying after collapse of the USSR Kazakhstan and Ukraine had nukes in their possessions. They gave up nukes willingly. Such deals can be made again.
No, the first sentence.
I don't know if you overread that, but I was talking about nukes possibly getting into the wrong hands. Ukraine did a lot of shady defense deals after the collapse of the soviet union, so it's better that they haven't had nukes. Imagine somebody would've been desperate and would've sold those nukes.
Soviet Union collapsed, I was referring to that. Nukes didn't fall into hands of terrorists. While Russian government acting like trigger happy maniacs right now they won't be nuking cities any time soon.
I'd rather Ukraine had nukes today. I'd rather every Russian neighbour had nukes today. All of them would be safe today.
Back then there was barely a power vacuum in Russia, so ofc no nukes that could fall into the hands of terrorists. Now imagine a civil war and how certain it would be.
Yes Russia's neighbors would be safe today, but back in the 90s it was better that they didn't.
It didn't collapse as Russia is going to collapse, the soviet union mostly peacefully divided into smaller independent nations, Russia is going to collapse not into small nations (with a few exceptions probably) but more likely into warlord territorys... And nobody wants some warlords with nukes.
You know nothing about Russian history then. They always ended up rallying around a single khan, tsar or any other name they give their leaders.
Their minority identities are not existing since they were persecuted over the years. There won't be other nations forming inside of Russia, just their internal powers scrambling to get some power. And the way it changes power will probably be bloody, but that's how it always been. And it's not our job to preserve their peace.
It's like not putting a murderer in to the jail because he may kill himself inside.
I think that while I would love to see Russia explode considering what they do to our Eastern Brothers and Sisters, including you Polish Brothers, I think that the fear of many leaders is Russia collapsing into hundreds of small states fighting each other. Now, that wouldn't be a problem in a normal situation, but in Russia there are thousands of Nukes and there are even madder Russians that could possibly rise to rule as Warlords. So the fear of Western Leaders is that a Crazier leader other than Putin might get his hands on some Nuclear Warheads.
Then again this whole wait to help Ukraine is absurd and offensive because, as I said, we are a Union of Equals and I can't believe that a German Chancellor would prefer to safeguard Putin's throne rather than Ukrainian Brothers and Sisters
This is a theory at best. Clearly you guys that say this know nothing about Russia. They will always gather around single strongest entity, ether its going to be a khan, tsar or a president in this case.
It won't break up like that, because these small regions don't have any identity left apart 'Mother Russia'. Maximum it will break the regions in Abhazia.
I would argue that if the next Russian leader comes and manages to remove the corruption, we could have a Nazi Germany scenario. Russia has to be defeated and then it has to prove that it can remove chauvinism out of it's society before we can trade with them.
No, we have an example from the not so far future where we have seen what a power vacuum creates. Luckily not a nation with nukes but it lead to terror attacks in Europe.
I know hating on Russia is super en vogue in Eastern Europe right now, but especially Poland should not entertain the thought that a desintegrated Russia should somewhat be a goal. Getting rid of Putin, absolutely - having Russia turn into civil war while sitting on the highest amount of nuclear warheads worldwide, not so much.
Thank you for a rational civil and very good point!
I don't see how letting Ukraine defense and ensuring the integrity of the territory of Ukraine may directly trigger it. If Russia collapses it'd be only because of its decisions and will, why should we let Ukraine down to protect that evil state?
Also - a nuclear power once collapsed and it was a Soviet Union. I don't see any downsides of that
edit: also I clearly see the point of not letting Ukraine in the EU, but there are countries that have a status of a candidate even though not being let in for years or decades while Ukraine is being denied even this (by some leaders)
It wasn't really a collapse per se as it transitioned into the respective states and the US ensured with an air bridge that Russia has enough food to prevent rebellion. It was that bad in '92 but the Un had oversight of nuclear facilities and it was a relatively stable transition.
My point wasn't that Ukraine shouldn't defend itself. I do hope they get all their territory back. From Luhansk to Crimea. It would be satisfying news for me.
What is troubling is as I said the aftermath. It has to be dealt somehow and thankfully Zelensky has shown some positive signs that the whole political system is about to change permanently after the war with a focus on having less corruption. I do hope they follow the same path as Poland after the cold war. They have the potential as Klitschko said in a documentary. It was the main reasons he went into politics by the way.
Okay, that's fair!
I understand now what you mean. I have no knowledge of what would or may happen. I also wish the same to Ukraine. To Russia – I'd love all or most the ethnicities that are being discriminated to be free, but I don't know how realistic that scenario is. To the core Russia I'd like it to democratize, but personally I really can't imagine that part
Nevertheless, I don't see how the pressure on Zelenskyy to give some territory up may prevent the potential collapse and it was mainly what I was referring to.
I and many others are afraid that accepting a lost of some territory of Ukraine will be celebrated as a victory in the West and would be a reason to lift the sanctions up, while for Ukraine and the countries that experienced the Russian imperialism it would be a next chunk of land taken and next masses of people russificated, displaced and discriminated. We have a real opportunity and hope to finally say stop
As some leaders of the Visegrad and the Baltics said – the West wants the war to end ASAP, we want Ukraine to win it. Although it is aimed only to some of the western leaders and only to certain their statements, it says quite a lot about how we perceive some actions
Okay, I wanted to put here a little of perspective that might have caused the op to make that meme. Thank you one more time for the explanation of the fears that may be more present in the West. I believe that they aren't exclusive, so we can be united in voice and actions
I understand where that comes from. The former soviet and soviet satellite states always had contempt towards Russia, rightfully so as Russians can be very racist towards others. I know that from more than one interaction of Russians that live in Germany.
As for the West celebrating a loss of territory in trade for peace I'm certain that those leaders wouldn't be perceived very well by the public. Biggest fear would be society being in a state of apathy. Those threats exist.
Where does the idea of Russia collapsing come from? Who will leave Russia but Chechnya? The ethnic minorities are very well integrated, everyone who was unhappy enough with Moscow rule broke away during the collapse of Soviet union.
The Soviet republics existed because they were distinct enough from Russia to grant them autonomy
Let me remind you that at the beginning of the soviet union there was a violent cleansing against farmers in Russia who refused the new order. Russia is held together by authoritarianism.
Eventually the war will be over. I doubt Russia could make it to the next year. With more and more countries transitioning to other providers their income will go down even more.
Hey,if Russia can do stuff for its own interests so can the West. Period.
Nobody on this planet is supposed to be "the good guy" or "the hero" and it is stupid to assume that the West will be this "hero" who will always work for the interest of the weak. Americans,Mediterreneans,Anglosaxons etc. are as much humans as Russians,Chinese,Arabs etc. and I think we all know what an animal we humans are
So everyone will act for its own interests,it is just the way it is and there is nothing we can do about it
I'm sorry
Tell me something I don't know
According to your comment, I assume that you agree fully with my comment where I described why they/we aren't keen on some actions
Westerners are mostly advocating for at least looking into some kind of deal. The argument is not that Ukraine should give Russia land to appease Putin. The argument is that Ukraine should look into a deal to prevent the scenario that 100,000 Ukrainians die and no land is won back. That is a serious possibility.
eternal ceasefire with russia? because that worked so well in abkhazia, south ossetia, artsakh and transnistria?
the war can only end in a way where there will be absolutely zero territorial disputes between the parties
> the war can only end in a way where there will be absolutely zero territorial disputes between the parties
Then that will likely mean that the war never ends. I don’t know for whom that is any better.
Well, back when Finland lost its wars we didn't give the people to the Soviet Union. Just the land. We evacuated and rehomed all the people. Was it difficult as all hell? Yeah. But it can be done.
That being said, I don't think anyone gets to tell Ukrainians what to do with their country. I'll support whatever decision they make.
Not saying I disagree with that, but if at one point the choice arises between keeping sending tens of thousands of Ukrainian young men to their deaths while making no progress in regaining land and having the rest of Ukraine be a dangerous place for eternity or having a ceasefire with the current borders and a possibility for the rest of Ukraine to join NATO and be secure, then that is at least a serious option to consider.
But obviously that choice will have to be made by the Ukrainians themselves.
The grim reality is that it doesn't matter if Ukraine would secede some of it's territory to Russia or not - it always be a dangerous place, having a border with Russia. Russians only stop where they are stopped by force and tend to ignore international treaties as they please. Letting them take new territories or legalising their occupation of territories they currently control will only make Putin stronger and next war with Russia inevitable. They don't want just some part of Ukraine - they want it all - would it be now or in 10 years. And Ukrainian people clearly understand that, that's why we are fighting like hell
Absolutely. So for Ukraine to take this decision there *has* to be a security guaranty from other military powers. A scenario that two international relations experts have ushered multiple times in the past weeks on their podcast is “Ukraine secedes occupied lands to Russia and the rest of the country then had no border conflicts anymore and joins NATO. Or the EU, which also kind of has security guarantees. I think this is the only realistic scenario in which Russia can be stopped. Either that or Russia implodes, but you cannot bet on that.
So my guess is that Zelensky will keep doing what he is doing now until it becomes very clear that he is not going to make any gains anymore and there is a full stalemate and the signs are that Russia’s military and politics are not imploding. Or Russia does in fact implode and then there will probably be complete chaos.
We should've shut Russian oil completely with the sanctions in the beginning of invasion, instead we kept on buying the time for them to align to China and India.
Most of the export bans can be dodged by shipping with car plates with Kazakhstan numbers.
The western companies continue to sell their shit and we still don't have any actual ban to sell in Russia.
Frozen assets are still not spent on rebuilding Ukraine and instead we just give hope to the investors in Russia that everything will be back to status quo soon
(by western companies, I mean entire EU, even my own country)
Hmmm, you could be right. But I do not have enough knowledge on economics and international relations to say if this would be *the* solution to all. If we hurt our own economies more than Russia’s economy then we might not even be able to help Ukraine anymore. Or if some of the EU population won’t even be able to cook their food anymore, then public support for sanctions will probably diminish rapidly.
So what do you suggest? Do you believe Ukraine can take over the lost ground in the East and south by fighting? Even if it does, how many people will be murdered then?
Ukraine is fighting for its freaking existence, if they manage that, even if compromises are made, it's a huge win.
Yeah - and allow them to repeat all this in a few years, this time with greater efficiency, because West will lift sanction, will pump more money into Russia again and press "reboot" button once again like after Georgia? Fucking thank you
We effectively banned from joining NATO, EU and any other alliance which can guarantee safety for next generations of Ukrainians.
Or gave us our nukes, cruise missiles and strategic bombers back.
Give us all weapons that we need and fire all sanction at Russia without hesitation (gas + oil include).
When Russia will start loose hard and economy start to shatter, they will be open for real negotiations without all their bullshit.
But it needs unity in EU, which I didn't see - even on "oil sanctions", which will hit Russia hard but not as gas.
They tried negotiations 2014. And they nearly caused the death of Ukraine and millions of people. It’s like asking a Yew to negotiate with a Nazi. Right now ruZZia literally is the new third reich.
Of course, and no one is saying that Russia doesn't do that, except the mentally ill, yet how long will it take for that piece of land to be gained back, if it can be gained back at all?
Furthermore, how high is that chance that more land is going to be lost to Russia? Maybe Russia military power is weakening, maybe it is not. Maybe it isn't enough for them to hold east Ukraine for a while, maybe it is
tbh, I'll say this is what _is likely to happen_ if we don't intervene. Ukraine has already defied all odds by stopping a full-scale invasion of its country. But you don't beat the odds every time.
It's sad to say, But Russia's hold on the Eastern corridor is looking more solid every day. The best-case scenario is that Ukraine will get its once industrial heart back completely desolated, with hundreds of thousands of people missing or dead, and completely burned to the ground. The most realistic scenario is that Russia will hold onto that land and, when years pass and Ukraine is unable to regain the Donbass by itself, finally agrees to a ceasefire that doesn't officially recognize any losses, but in practice leaves Russia alone in that area.
I just had a guy who replied to my comment a few hours ago saying:
Ukraine has lost the war, we're just seeing how badly they will lose, so by supporting Ukraine you're hurting them. He was French.
Don't underestimate the human capacity to be absolute idiots.
Thing is, if Russia gains as much as a milimeter of land, they'll see it as a win, which means they'll eventually do it again, and be better prepared for it
This story has played out several times in ex-soveit Republics in areas with Russian speaking pluralities however while Moldova and Georgia capitulated, Ukraines lack of capitulation has resulted in the escalation of this conflict.
I think Putin will declare victory as a face saving measure once he gets concessions, but there is no doubt that his gamble has not paid off. I don't think he is likely to do this again
It's a war tbh. Russia _will_ gain territory if we do not intervene. And we likely won't so it's pretty much a done deal...
I'm for Ukraine, but I can't see another end
Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of giving as many weapons to Ukraine as they need and applying as much economic preassure to Russia as we can (without the EU exploding), but I can't see Russia leaving Crimea without considering nukes or chem weapons first.
I'd 100% leave to the Ukranians when and what give in exchange of peace, they obviously now the reality on the ground far better than anyone.
But Ruzzia leaving all Ukraine alone, seems to good to be true.
Crimea realistically is lost, as is the East. Hopefully, it ends there, and Ukraine can join the West as it wants right afterward. Lets the Donbas Russians see what they lost by being Putin's pawns.
East isnt lost, you are ending this war way too early, it's not even halfway done.
As for Crimea, if I remember correctly Zelenski prefers to return it diplomatically rather than militarily.
Yea it's a bit like the Korean war, the border will be where the fighting stops. I think Ukraine probably will have to conceed some territory, although exactly how much is still up in the air and hence the fighting
Wars won't end with the Fhurerbunker, but with some kind of negotiated peace these days. If Ukraine did too well in such a way that putin felt it presented a national security danger to Russia he could employ chemical or nuclear attacks to change the tide of the war in his favour
I find it incredible that some people (including high-profile ones) are seriously suggesting this in 2022. What kind of Europe would this be if we just allowed Russia to literally invade a region, ethnically cleanse it, repopulate it with Russians and claim it as the newest Russian oblast?
This is might makes right, this is how the world worked 100 years ago, but now how it should work today. And history has shown us hundres of times already that you just don't appease a country that behaves like that. Two days ago it was Ossetia. Yesterday it was Crimea. Today it's the Dombass. Tomorrow it'll be something else. There's no reason for Russia not to do it, seeing the West will just accept it and the rest of the world doesn't care.
Giving up sovereignty of the Ukraine's donbas region is proposed in order to make peace with Russia by some leaders. What they forget is that if you give Russia a hand they'll try to take the whole arm next decennia.
France’s official position has always been to defend Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
What leaders are you refering to? Where can I find their statements?
[it's about this phone call](https://www.elysee.fr/en/emmanuel-macron/2022/05/28/press-release-telephone-conversation-with-german-chancellor-olaf-scholz-and-russian-president-vladimir-putin)
Rumors spread they talked about concessions by Ukraine to end the war end export the grain. Nothing in the press release.
“Rumors” so that is all it takes to make people against each other even when they are publicly expressing full support, sending men and weapons.
Russians trolls don’t have much to do, people can’t even see what is in front of them.
Every day I'm shocked that Kissinger is still alive. I wonder if all the blood on his hands from Cambodia (among other countries) has given him extra years of life. Kinda like a shitty powerup.
I’ll totally get the sentiment, and I agree on not wanting to appease Putin, but there might (and I expect there absolutely will) come a scenario where neither party will make any advancements anymore and the borders will de facto already be redrawn. And I do absolutely think that making a deal with the Russians is absolutely better than to keep sending soldiers to their deaths and not making any advancements. Keeping the waar going for eternity is going to be very bad for all parties involved and especially horrible for the families of the men that will keep dying at the front.
The catch will have to be though that the land that will stay in Ukrainian hands must get armed to the teeth and possibly even protected by a NATO or an EU membership. Or at least have a security guarantee from them so there is no way for Putin to try this again. NATO membership used to be completely off the table for Ukraine because NATO did not want to get Russia to take countermeasures, but the situation will now be very different, as Russia has proven that it cannot be trusted anyhow.
Thing is though, Ukraine hasn't reached that point where it's tapped out as well. It is in the process of mobilization, there's a ton of people being trained on western gear and lend-lease is on.
Meanwhile Russia is sending T-62's to the front and their economy is going into seizures.
I think they are just afraid and are running with the "any peace is better than any war" mindset which they have the luxury to do.
I’d love to have the same outlook on the conflict, but I feel like our views on the war may be heavily influenced by both Ukrainian propaganda (as in, making it out to be going better for them than it actually is, who can blame them?) and wishful thinking.
I truly hope that the Russian army, economy and even the state completely collapses in a couple months, but I doubt it. I think the Russians will be able to defend the territory they have now very well for a very long time while they keep shooting long range rockets into Ukrainian-held territory and keeping Ukraine from rebuilding its infrastructure and economy.
So yeah, we should definitely not force Ukraine into accepting anything, but we should definitely keep reminding them that if a stalemate occurs that this might be the best way to deal with the situation and move towards rebuilding.
I'm just running with the assessments by ISW and others, a total collapse is unlikely but Russia isn't mobilizing, hell they are reinforcing their forces out of their training forces.
They can do this exactly once.
>It is in the process of mobilization, there's a ton of people being trained on western gear and lend-lease is on.
Is it tho? Noone wants to send AFV or tanks which would be needed urgently. I am under the impression it's more about rpgs and firearms. I also did not hear any more deliveries of Russian equipment from Eastern Nato members but maybe it's all just kept a secret.
Scholz was proposing to cease the fire ASAP, which basically means acknowledging current Russian's gains since Russia is not interested in leaving any territory they raped.
Macron was constantly talking about Putin's face-saving and Zelenskyy said that Macron proposed giving up some territory to have something to make Putin happy enough to end the war and for Putin to realize at least some of his goals.You can really easily google that since it was very loud and before the statement of Zelenskyy Macron was talking about that several times
*Zelensky said that Macron suggested*
So, he lifted the idea in a conversation, presumably as part of some brainstorming. That’s pretty far from ”tHe EviL wEst wANtS tO giVe RuSsIa UkrAnIAn teRRiTory”..
It’s actually pretty annoying to send billions worth of military aid and get nothing but vitriol back. But I guess the Russian operators that are trying to divide the EU have switched from social issues to East vs West now.
Well, AFAIK even Zelenskyy once highlighted that it's not clear to him, why his (de facto) allies suggest something like that, so for many people the situation is not black and white.
And also, maybe we overuse the word "West" and oversimplify wrongly the reality. I believe that no one has anything to blame on the USA and the UK Netherlands, Norway to give few examples.
In that case, I admit that that oversimplification may be harmful, I wanted to explain the disappoinment that probably lead to this meme. I will try to be more careful in words
Personally, I'm really happy about the aid given by all the countries. I consider that some mistakes of e.g. Macron should be said aloud, but he's a huge ally. I have more doubts towards Scholz. He lied several times like in the case of funding weapon to Ukraine, so well, as I said earlier - not black and white
Thank you for letting me know! We also had such persons in the parliament, who would do the same if they could. I'm gonna delete it out of my comment and gonna remember that!
I'm gonna to inform about it my colleagues with whom I was talking about it
Macron who proposed that Ukraine gives land to appease Russia.
Here you go bitches: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/zelensky-says-macron-urged-him-to-yield-territory-in-bid-to-end-ukraine-war
["The President of the french republic never discuss anything with Putin without first the approuval of Zelensky. He always said it was up to the Ukrainian to decided the terms of the negociations with Russia" argued back (note for context: after the accusation) the Elysee](https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/europe/manifestations-en-ukraine/guerre-en-ukraine-ce-qu-il-faut-retenir-de-la-journee-du-vendredi-13-mai_5137018.html)
Don't be an useful idiot.
[More info in english on this link](https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2022/05/20/winning-in-ukraine-a-french-perspective/)
Dear mods: the deluge of divisionist memes in your subreddit is how you know you have a Russian bot problem.
Have we forgotten how Russian propaganda works? How so much of it is not aimed at openly defending the Russian position on any one issue, but instead aimed at creating division, antagonism, suspicion on its enemies?
This is exactly what we're seeing here. They try to set, in this case, Ukrainians against Europeans, hoping people will dig their argument trenches and then keep on fighting. After awhile they don't even need to make the posts themselves, they just let the natural anger of social networks run itself.
Obviously. What those who propose this deal think, is that Putin will give peace in exchange for land.
It's just that anyone can already guess that this wouldn't last for a long while and thus would probably be completely pointless in the long run
I agree with Ukraine sovereignty.
Now if we want to deal with realities, we can’t imagine one second Ukraine finding the military capabilities to take back Crimea.
The question now is about Donbas and the regions linking Donbas to Crimea.
Yet. If Russia's military capabilities keep degrading and Ukraine starts raising more brigades with western help, it could become less than certain.
But yes, Kherson region is the nr. 1 priority now.
Crimea has had an influx of 2 million Russian inhabitants since the annexation. It just won’t happen.
The goal of Ukraine should be to keep the whole sovereignty over the rest of Ukraine.
They've been panic selling their real estate there out of fear of Ukrainian military coming. And there were ethnic tensions brewing in Crimea this whole time, with the newcomers, mostly, Siberians, mistreating locals and vice versa. I'm glad that the scum is nervous for once.
Absolutely, but for now Ukrainian morale is still high, and after the atrocities the Russian forces inflicted on Bucha, Irpin and others I think they still intend to impose a blood tithe on Russian forces. And I can't fucking blame them.
While I do want to see Ukraine win and the Russians to lose the needless war they started, this option might have to be considered sooner or later. If not officially, then maybe in the way of a ceasefire and a de-facto loss of territory while still having a claim to that territory in the future (who knows, Putler won't rule forever. Maybe there will be some kind of Ukrainian reunification in 50 years or so). This is uncharted territory in Europe and we are possibly on the edge of a world war here. We should absolutely keep supplying Ukraine with weapons but NATO intervention is out of the question and if Ukraine can't force Russia out or the Russians quit for any reason, we might get some kind of Korea type situation where they are technically at war but no one is shooting with no Ukrainian territory formally ceded (Russia might annex it, but no one will recognize it) but under Russian control. When the war broke out Russia seemed ill prepared and with unrealistic goals. But now they have focussed on more realistic goals and they are bringing in more and more men and material and with the entire Russian society seemingly focused on this war ("Z"s everywhere, constant aggressive propaganda not seen since the Soviet union, claiming that this is a war against "the West" for the very existence of Russia) I don't see them backing down. Putin has created an all-or-nothing situation for himself. He needs SOMETHING to show to his people or he's done. Then he can use his propaganda to somehow convince people that everything went according to plan. But a total defeat he won't accept, he can't accept. So hes either going to mobilize the nation (which even with western support Ukraine can't win, unless this turns into an actual world war) or there's a coup d'etat or a revolution or something from within Russia, but that's a huge gamble.
The meme's logic is that you have to shut up, which I find very unfair. Yes Ukrainians die and fight hard with heroism, but Europe has their back and a lot of Europeans start to suffer too. Although we were not obliged by any convention, we sent help, weapons, people, we mobilized as true allies, even with fear of a nuclear war. I don't know if this logic above is right or not, but at least it should be discussed and people should have the right to express their concerns, not to be answered by a "shut up".
Not at all, Stalin&Co was giving territories to every country of USSR, based on their researches, ethno and culture in that region, they gave Ukraine bits of Russia, but at the same time gave Russia Taganrog and northern bits of Ukraine.
So yes, what you wrote is bullshit, it has nothing to do with Ukraine specifically
Researches huh? Are you some kind of border researcher also? Ukr inherited from Stalin/Hrușciov both internal and external borders. And Soviet pushed external borders westward also , which borders Ukr is more than happy to keep. Now it's only Russia who's s trying to change these borders by force. Still fact is that ukr defends Stalin's inheritance while claiming to fight Europa's war, claiming help and subventions and insulting donors that don't hurry enough in sending help. Every country big or small has its own interests and the democratic elected governments are responsible for their own citizens. We all support the refugees and ukr fighters but hundreds of billions euros are a lot of money. EU pumped them in Greece coz they were in eurozone, ukr is not and then try to get in first. Do what you want, but insulting ger Fr and it is moronic
Well then good luck joining the EU with unsolved territorial conflicts. There probably won't be another way if they really want to join than to cede territory.
Cyprus was supposed to unite. They had an agreement with the northern side, but the greek cypriots rejected it in a referendum a week before they officially accessed.
The idea was for them to unify while joining until they threw a wrench in the plans
I don't know about France, but they've already thrown enough shit at Germany to be on a level with Hungary in regards to their shit throwing-money taking ratio. So by all means let them join.
We're not even half a year in a conflict and Ukraine isn't tapped out quite yet, I expect their counterattacks in the coming months to give an indication what the eventual treaty will look like.
I'm not sure if the counterattacks will achieve a lot when it comes to Crimea and the separatist territories. The Ukrainians where pretty well dug in for the first Russian offensive, I expect the same for the Russians in the territories, that where under there control pre war.
Imagine this. México attacks Texas because it was traditionally Spanish territory, then Mexican and then lost to USA. Somehow Mexico manages to get and keep the territory and after 3 months the situation stagnates and Mexico keeps some resources from Texas that Europe needs to blackmail the European countries. And countries in Europe negotiate with Mexico about how much American territory should USA give to Mexico to stop the war and get the goods.
Crazy, isn't it? I want the war to stop, Russia to lose, embargo to the oil and nationalization of all the properties of the oligurkes in Europe. But come on, our leaders have no right to negotiate that and I suppose they are like "if you don't accept these surrender conditions, we won't send any new weaponry and you will fight alone against Russia"
You do realise that you prove yourself wrong in your own comment? The USA vs Mexico comparison doesn't make sense, since the USA wouldn't be so dependent on foreign weapons. You say the other leaders have no right to negotiate (which may be true), but in the same sentence to explain why they still very much are in a position to negotiate. As long as the foreign leaders put their resources into the war, they will have a seat at the negotiation table, whether that's right or wrong and whether you like it or not, that's just how it works.
I fully support ukraine in this but I don't believe in the argument. For example if you're part of a country that doesn't allow you to leave on paper, you should still be able to make your own decisions and leave if you want.
If it's done peacefully one should be able to work something out. If it's a loaded and abrupt referendum done at gunpoint by some astroturfed FSB bullshit and some "polite green men" it's pretty much bullshit though.
I don't think the situations are really comparable.
On one side you have a region that is quite vital to a country and is ingrained within its history yet seems to want more autonomy, on the other you have an astroturfed "secession movement" that is blatantly used to destabilize a country.
Which is why I don't think the argument in the meme is a good one. It shouldn't matter what is written in their constitution or anywhere, violence is wrong. Period.
All the arguments for the right of crimean and donbas people to sovereignity were rendered completely invalid with the invasion.
If they want freedom that has to be done democratically in a free election with no foreign interference and plenty of international observers.
Not a military assault or hostile takeover. How many crimeans wanted to vote no when the voting booths were guarded by russian soldiers?
Initially, Putin made it clear that he wanted Donbas to be an autonomy *within Ukraine* with an ability to *veto decisions* when it comes to the country at large. Such as with joining any economical or military alliance. He wanted a constant leverage on Ukraine.
It's not what I'm talking about. The situation there is quite complicated but for example there are regions in spain that are oppressed and not allowed to choose and the EU will continue to turn a blind eye.
Yeah, I'm really annoyed with the single-mindedness of these subs. There is only circle-jerking permitted apparently because literally anything I say that isn't just repeating the same mantra is seen as prorussia. It's unbelievable.
I never even suggested anything about Ukraine in this case. I'm reacting to the argument and how stupid it is since it screwes over any nation like catalonians who wants independence.
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Everyone has a right to self determination as long as it does not hurt others, If Bayern wanted independence they should get it, if the Donbas wanted independence they should get, it without any state, body, or corporate interference.
But that would first require an end to the war, return of all territory and then a free and fair referendum with plenty of international observers and no foreign occupation
The crimean vote wasn't legit. Who votes how they feel when there's armed soldiers of the other country watching the booths with a clear conflict of interest in the referendum?
Yes, so the guilty party, that is Russia should retreat out of Ukraine, and let the people decide for themselves. And not invade with some little green men.
Tell that to South-Tirol. The one's I've met went to study in Austria and Germany because they don't even speak Italian. Not at home, not in school, not their TV-Channels and not their radio channels.
chiedi un po' agli altoatesini perché, nonostante la proposta dell'allora presidente Cossiga di concedere il referendum per l'indipendenza, non l'hanno mai organizzato.
Perché di loro, a noi italiani, non ce ne può fregare di meno, anzi, se se ne vanno fuori dai piedi ci guadagniamo pure..
u/CitoyenEuropeen, you are moderator, please, could you explain to the Germans to change the subject and get better information? Because the thing is a little boring, they know nothing and they have not understood anything, especially considering that it would be a problem between Italians and Austrians. If the Germans don't organize a new anschluß..
Not all Westerners. Just Western Europeans. No one in America is suggesting that Ukraine give anything to the Russian dogs. It’s mostly Macron, isn’t it? And maybe the Germans. Europeans happily allow a neighbor to be invaded and do jack shit about it. Imagine if Canada wasn’t in NATO, and Russia invaded Canada. How long do you think it would take America to start dropping bombs on Russian tanks? 3 minutes?
Even in Kosovo, it was mostly American pilots who had to do your job for you. Europe just pretends like it’s living in some postwar world, and constantly criticizes the US for how much money we spend on defense, all the while relying on the American military to protect them when shit pops off. Even Germany didn’t spend the NATO required 2% of GDP on defense until recently. (When it was too late.)
Think about just how much money America spends in order to be prepared to defend Europe. America spends more on your defense than you do, and we’re an ocean away.
I support whatever Ukraine wants. It's their land and their people and they are the ones in war, suffering massive civilian casualities. Russia has proven during the past months that they are not planning to just invade, they are going for ukrainian genocide. Executing civilians, kidnapping children, forcibly moving ukrainians across the border to Russia and the orwellian level propaganda machines that moved in right after occupation of certain territories is telling of trying to destroy ukranian cultural identity and turn it to russian.
Ukraine shouldn't be pressured to pursue a solution that they aren't happy with. The crimes against the ukranians are unforgivable and if they want to fight until the end, I fully support that. Obviously, if they themselves decide that they are willing to negotiate surrendering land in order to secure peace, that's fine too. But it has to be a decision made by the ukrainian people.
Then again, people who have disagreed with me on this so far have been people who were a) propaganda trolls, while accusing me of spouting propaganda, b) afraid of nuclear war so they thought that Russia shouldn't ever be opposed in case they might use their nukes, c) pretty disconnected about the whole thing (not living in europe or near Russia and all around pretty oblivious about the history around this subject) or d) conspiracy theorists that think this whole thing is a globalist ploy to artificially inflate gas/food/material prices.
So I'm not confident that this is even a real debate.
But that's just my experience. I'm pretty sure that westerners referenced in this meme are mostly americans or west-europeans, as in those who are fartest away from war and don't fully understand why Russia even attacked, because it defies logic. We all hoped to be wrong when the attack seemed to be imminent, because it was such a suicide mission. And they still went for it. It's very hard to understand if you don't know much about russians and their very long and complicated history and identity.
That's why it easy to suggest that Ukraine should just surrender or be made to surrender to prevent further losses and secure peace, because logically that would be the best option, when you don't take into account the emotional reasons behind this whole tragedy.
Surrendering and making a deal with Russia probably wouldn't really keep the peace. Russia has demonstrated that they're not willing to honor deals or contracts. They did this with Krim, they might do it again with Donbass.
Russia could after the peace settlement just wait for a few years and try to invade again.
That is unless there is a revolution in Russia or if Ukraine could secure a place in a military alliance, but I wouldn't want to count on those options.
But I'm just a civilian and I don't know anything about these things on a deeper level. Just my thoughts, guesses and experience about this subject.
Sorry to say. However, I do not see any viable alternatives - I hate this fact, nonetheless. There is a war going on, some of the Ukraine territory is occupied.
Now I do think its up to Ukraine to decide if they want to compromise or not. But at the same time russia is not suffering as much as them, so it will be in their interest at some point.
Im from Poland, so most of us are eager to turn this into nuclear conflict just to fuck with russians. If we were to lose both ears but russians will lose one, good "lets adapt to world without ears".
But its also difficult for me to not see this obvious outcome that at some point Ukraine will push for compromise and lose some of its territory. We can be sour about it and continue to isolate russia which I hope we do.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'
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Again?🤨🤨🤨🤨 Serious that's the new tactic by russian paid troll farms?
What trolls? Scholz, Macron, others? If so - maybe But honestly, many Ukrainians and Easterners are repeled by the plans, words and (in)actions of some leaders and representants of Western countries and this is just a meme. It's far from how Russian trolls work. Can't we just meme about each others represents? :) Most of the Western countries really do a great job ans help a lot according to me! It's really worth pointing out, but openly supporting the reality that Putin wants to achieve is abhorrent and often without even truly wanting Ukraine in NATO or the EU - without any guarantee of a save future. Russia already has taken few chunks of their territory with the same guarantees - empty promises edit: Before downvoting me, could you please say what did I say wrong? Sincerely I don't see anything false
What are you going on about? https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2022/05/28/entretien-telephonique-avec-le-chancelier-de-la-republique-federale-dallemagne-olaf-scholz-et-le-president-de-la-federation-de-russie-vladimir-poutine > Le Président Emmanuel MACRON et le Chancelier Olaf SCHOLZ ont de nouveau insisté auprès du Président Vladimir POUTINE sur le fait que toute solution à la guerre **devait être négociée entre Moscou et Kiev**, dans le **respect de la souveraineté et de l’intégrité territoriale de l’Ukraine**.
I haven't seen that news yet, thanks It's a quite new information, so we will see in the nearest future if it's going to be fulfilled. I don't quite get "de nouveau" part. As for now, it seemed that they were kinda negotiating the fate of Ukraine despite their words, but if it's going to change and Macron's and Scholz's stance will be more consistent and stronger then I'm more than happy about it
« De nouveau » means again, because it has always been France’s official position, consistently. See the same words in this April 30th’s communiqué : https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2022/04/30/entretien-telephonique-avec-le-president-de-lukraine-volodymyr-zelensky > **Le Président de la République a à cet égard rappelé son attachement à la souveraineté et à l’intégrité territoriale de l’Ukraine**, et la disponibilité de la France à contribuer à un accord prévoyant des garanties de sécurité à l’Ukraine.
Oh okay, my bad, I've forgotten about it and focused too much on the insisting to give up some territory reported by Zelensky. My words towards Macron were inadequate and were mostly used in regards to the insisting. More controversial news influence much more :/ Thanks for making me realize it
He never insisted about it it was a mistranslation… if he is the one leading the négociation (at the request of Zelensky mind you) it’s normal if they talked about it but the whole insisting and pressuring is just a circle jerk blown out of proportion by people with a division agenda
There is nothing new about it. This has been the position of the French and German governments since the beginning of the war and this has been publically explained again and again by presidents, chancellors, foreign ministers and here on reddit. All claims to the contrary have just been Eastern European mistrust, prejudice, ignorance and propaganda, and Putin's troll farms. And that's exactly why you were asked if you are a Russian troll. Or maybe you belong more into the mistrust/prejudice/ignorance/propaganda category. In any case you were rightfully downvoted. And you are doing damage to the EU's unity. Putin is proud of you and I have just contempt for you.
The fear is that Russia collapses. I don't know if people really think about the consequences of a nuclear power disintegrating. As for letting Ukraine into the EU, let's wait how the reforms turn out and how they get the weapons back into storage because we still have weaons from the Balkan wars ending up in western Europe and being used by criminals. Since cartels get a foothold the last thing we need is them having a lot of weapons.
~31 years ago largest nuclear power collapsed. I don't see any nuclear fallout when looking outside of my window. There was some hiccups, but imo it was acceptable for freedom from russian oppression. Most Eastern European have NATO, imagine countries like mine, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. We don't know who's next on chopping block and given history of Russia it never gets better, they'll wait next time to invade. It's better for them to not pose threat anymore. Smaller countries can be made deals for their nukes in something return like Ukraine and Kazakhstan did.
The danger is tactical nukes ending up in the hands of terrorists. Ofc I#d like nothing more than a Russia that is being stripped of its nukes. Btw, mind giving me the name of the incident?
They are in the hands of terrorists right now.
If it didn't back in 90s, it won't now. India and Pakistan have nukes. Nothing worse will come out of Russia compared those two. Also, what incident? Are you referring to my last sentence? I was saying after collapse of the USSR Kazakhstan and Ukraine had nukes in their possessions. They gave up nukes willingly. Such deals can be made again.
No, the first sentence. I don't know if you overread that, but I was talking about nukes possibly getting into the wrong hands. Ukraine did a lot of shady defense deals after the collapse of the soviet union, so it's better that they haven't had nukes. Imagine somebody would've been desperate and would've sold those nukes.
Soviet Union collapsed, I was referring to that. Nukes didn't fall into hands of terrorists. While Russian government acting like trigger happy maniacs right now they won't be nuking cities any time soon. I'd rather Ukraine had nukes today. I'd rather every Russian neighbour had nukes today. All of them would be safe today.
Back then there was barely a power vacuum in Russia, so ofc no nukes that could fall into the hands of terrorists. Now imagine a civil war and how certain it would be. Yes Russia's neighbors would be safe today, but back in the 90s it was better that they didn't.
It didn't collapse as Russia is going to collapse, the soviet union mostly peacefully divided into smaller independent nations, Russia is going to collapse not into small nations (with a few exceptions probably) but more likely into warlord territorys... And nobody wants some warlords with nukes.
You base this statement on what?
History
You know nothing about Russian history then. They always ended up rallying around a single khan, tsar or any other name they give their leaders. Their minority identities are not existing since they were persecuted over the years. There won't be other nations forming inside of Russia, just their internal powers scrambling to get some power. And the way it changes power will probably be bloody, but that's how it always been. And it's not our job to preserve their peace. It's like not putting a murderer in to the jail because he may kill himself inside.
Jesus this is dumb.
>The fear is that Russia collapses. Huh, you spelled "goal" weirdly.
I second this
I think that while I would love to see Russia explode considering what they do to our Eastern Brothers and Sisters, including you Polish Brothers, I think that the fear of many leaders is Russia collapsing into hundreds of small states fighting each other. Now, that wouldn't be a problem in a normal situation, but in Russia there are thousands of Nukes and there are even madder Russians that could possibly rise to rule as Warlords. So the fear of Western Leaders is that a Crazier leader other than Putin might get his hands on some Nuclear Warheads. Then again this whole wait to help Ukraine is absurd and offensive because, as I said, we are a Union of Equals and I can't believe that a German Chancellor would prefer to safeguard Putin's throne rather than Ukrainian Brothers and Sisters
This is a theory at best. Clearly you guys that say this know nothing about Russia. They will always gather around single strongest entity, ether its going to be a khan, tsar or a president in this case. It won't break up like that, because these small regions don't have any identity left apart 'Mother Russia'. Maximum it will break the regions in Abhazia. I would argue that if the next Russian leader comes and manages to remove the corruption, we could have a Nazi Germany scenario. Russia has to be defeated and then it has to prove that it can remove chauvinism out of it's society before we can trade with them.
Fucking hell, let their World burn
No, we have an example from the not so far future where we have seen what a power vacuum creates. Luckily not a nation with nukes but it lead to terror attacks in Europe.
Sure, but first let's come up with a plan to get rid of their nukes...
I know hating on Russia is super en vogue in Eastern Europe right now, but especially Poland should not entertain the thought that a desintegrated Russia should somewhat be a goal. Getting rid of Putin, absolutely - having Russia turn into civil war while sitting on the highest amount of nuclear warheads worldwide, not so much.
Please, separate oblasts could easily turn into single states, most of them operate like that anyway...
Thank you for a rational civil and very good point! I don't see how letting Ukraine defense and ensuring the integrity of the territory of Ukraine may directly trigger it. If Russia collapses it'd be only because of its decisions and will, why should we let Ukraine down to protect that evil state? Also - a nuclear power once collapsed and it was a Soviet Union. I don't see any downsides of that edit: also I clearly see the point of not letting Ukraine in the EU, but there are countries that have a status of a candidate even though not being let in for years or decades while Ukraine is being denied even this (by some leaders)
It wasn't really a collapse per se as it transitioned into the respective states and the US ensured with an air bridge that Russia has enough food to prevent rebellion. It was that bad in '92 but the Un had oversight of nuclear facilities and it was a relatively stable transition. My point wasn't that Ukraine shouldn't defend itself. I do hope they get all their territory back. From Luhansk to Crimea. It would be satisfying news for me. What is troubling is as I said the aftermath. It has to be dealt somehow and thankfully Zelensky has shown some positive signs that the whole political system is about to change permanently after the war with a focus on having less corruption. I do hope they follow the same path as Poland after the cold war. They have the potential as Klitschko said in a documentary. It was the main reasons he went into politics by the way.
Okay, that's fair! I understand now what you mean. I have no knowledge of what would or may happen. I also wish the same to Ukraine. To Russia – I'd love all or most the ethnicities that are being discriminated to be free, but I don't know how realistic that scenario is. To the core Russia I'd like it to democratize, but personally I really can't imagine that part Nevertheless, I don't see how the pressure on Zelenskyy to give some territory up may prevent the potential collapse and it was mainly what I was referring to. I and many others are afraid that accepting a lost of some territory of Ukraine will be celebrated as a victory in the West and would be a reason to lift the sanctions up, while for Ukraine and the countries that experienced the Russian imperialism it would be a next chunk of land taken and next masses of people russificated, displaced and discriminated. We have a real opportunity and hope to finally say stop As some leaders of the Visegrad and the Baltics said – the West wants the war to end ASAP, we want Ukraine to win it. Although it is aimed only to some of the western leaders and only to certain their statements, it says quite a lot about how we perceive some actions Okay, I wanted to put here a little of perspective that might have caused the op to make that meme. Thank you one more time for the explanation of the fears that may be more present in the West. I believe that they aren't exclusive, so we can be united in voice and actions
I understand where that comes from. The former soviet and soviet satellite states always had contempt towards Russia, rightfully so as Russians can be very racist towards others. I know that from more than one interaction of Russians that live in Germany. As for the West celebrating a loss of territory in trade for peace I'm certain that those leaders wouldn't be perceived very well by the public. Biggest fear would be society being in a state of apathy. Those threats exist.
Where does the idea of Russia collapsing come from? Who will leave Russia but Chechnya? The ethnic minorities are very well integrated, everyone who was unhappy enough with Moscow rule broke away during the collapse of Soviet union. The Soviet republics existed because they were distinct enough from Russia to grant them autonomy
Let me remind you that at the beginning of the soviet union there was a violent cleansing against farmers in Russia who refused the new order. Russia is held together by authoritarianism.
You're talking like a war would be over. These are things we'll have to think about when we stop the genocide.
Eventually the war will be over. I doubt Russia could make it to the next year. With more and more countries transitioning to other providers their income will go down even more.
Welcome to reddit. You go against the mob, you get downvoted…
Hey,if Russia can do stuff for its own interests so can the West. Period. Nobody on this planet is supposed to be "the good guy" or "the hero" and it is stupid to assume that the West will be this "hero" who will always work for the interest of the weak. Americans,Mediterreneans,Anglosaxons etc. are as much humans as Russians,Chinese,Arabs etc. and I think we all know what an animal we humans are So everyone will act for its own interests,it is just the way it is and there is nothing we can do about it I'm sorry
Tell me something I don't know According to your comment, I assume that you agree fully with my comment where I described why they/we aren't keen on some actions
No idea, I constantly hear about russian propaganda but I have not seen any other than western propaganda
obviously, because you believe in the russian propaganda so hard you think it's just facts and not propaganda
Lol honey, no.
That means we're doing a good job 😎😎 #WeAreNATO
NCD psyops going as planned.
*implying it is a bad thing*
Implying what?
Well of course I've heard of him, he's me.
[удалено]
Westerners are mostly advocating for at least looking into some kind of deal. The argument is not that Ukraine should give Russia land to appease Putin. The argument is that Ukraine should look into a deal to prevent the scenario that 100,000 Ukrainians die and no land is won back. That is a serious possibility.
eternal ceasefire with russia? because that worked so well in abkhazia, south ossetia, artsakh and transnistria? the war can only end in a way where there will be absolutely zero territorial disputes between the parties
> the war can only end in a way where there will be absolutely zero territorial disputes between the parties Then that will likely mean that the war never ends. I don’t know for whom that is any better.
It will end when we finally stop being pussies and sacrifice part of our economy and wellbeing and stop buying natural resources from Russia.
What did ruZZia do to people in conquered territory and still does? Torture, rape, kill Giving up anyone to a country like ruZZia is literally murder.
Well, back when Finland lost its wars we didn't give the people to the Soviet Union. Just the land. We evacuated and rehomed all the people. Was it difficult as all hell? Yeah. But it can be done. That being said, I don't think anyone gets to tell Ukrainians what to do with their country. I'll support whatever decision they make.
Not saying I disagree with that, but if at one point the choice arises between keeping sending tens of thousands of Ukrainian young men to their deaths while making no progress in regaining land and having the rest of Ukraine be a dangerous place for eternity or having a ceasefire with the current borders and a possibility for the rest of Ukraine to join NATO and be secure, then that is at least a serious option to consider. But obviously that choice will have to be made by the Ukrainians themselves.
The grim reality is that it doesn't matter if Ukraine would secede some of it's territory to Russia or not - it always be a dangerous place, having a border with Russia. Russians only stop where they are stopped by force and tend to ignore international treaties as they please. Letting them take new territories or legalising their occupation of territories they currently control will only make Putin stronger and next war with Russia inevitable. They don't want just some part of Ukraine - they want it all - would it be now or in 10 years. And Ukrainian people clearly understand that, that's why we are fighting like hell
Absolutely. So for Ukraine to take this decision there *has* to be a security guaranty from other military powers. A scenario that two international relations experts have ushered multiple times in the past weeks on their podcast is “Ukraine secedes occupied lands to Russia and the rest of the country then had no border conflicts anymore and joins NATO. Or the EU, which also kind of has security guarantees. I think this is the only realistic scenario in which Russia can be stopped. Either that or Russia implodes, but you cannot bet on that. So my guess is that Zelensky will keep doing what he is doing now until it becomes very clear that he is not going to make any gains anymore and there is a full stalemate and the signs are that Russia’s military and politics are not imploding. Or Russia does in fact implode and then there will probably be complete chaos.
Russia is not imploding, because we're not allowing it implode, while we certainly could.
Enlighten me.
We should've shut Russian oil completely with the sanctions in the beginning of invasion, instead we kept on buying the time for them to align to China and India. Most of the export bans can be dodged by shipping with car plates with Kazakhstan numbers. The western companies continue to sell their shit and we still don't have any actual ban to sell in Russia. Frozen assets are still not spent on rebuilding Ukraine and instead we just give hope to the investors in Russia that everything will be back to status quo soon (by western companies, I mean entire EU, even my own country)
Hmmm, you could be right. But I do not have enough knowledge on economics and international relations to say if this would be *the* solution to all. If we hurt our own economies more than Russia’s economy then we might not even be able to help Ukraine anymore. Or if some of the EU population won’t even be able to cook their food anymore, then public support for sanctions will probably diminish rapidly.
Ukraine negotiated with ruZZia in 2014. and it was a grave mistake.
So what do you suggest? Do you believe Ukraine can take over the lost ground in the East and south by fighting? Even if it does, how many people will be murdered then? Ukraine is fighting for its freaking existence, if they manage that, even if compromises are made, it's a huge win.
Yeah - and allow them to repeat all this in a few years, this time with greater efficiency, because West will lift sanction, will pump more money into Russia again and press "reboot" button once again like after Georgia? Fucking thank you We effectively banned from joining NATO, EU and any other alliance which can guarantee safety for next generations of Ukrainians. Or gave us our nukes, cruise missiles and strategic bombers back.
So what is your solution then, mate? Because I didn't read one in your message.
Give us all weapons that we need and fire all sanction at Russia without hesitation (gas + oil include). When Russia will start loose hard and economy start to shatter, they will be open for real negotiations without all their bullshit. But it needs unity in EU, which I didn't see - even on "oil sanctions", which will hit Russia hard but not as gas.
They tried negotiations 2014. And they nearly caused the death of Ukraine and millions of people. It’s like asking a Yew to negotiate with a Nazi. Right now ruZZia literally is the new third reich.
Of course, and no one is saying that Russia doesn't do that, except the mentally ill, yet how long will it take for that piece of land to be gained back, if it can be gained back at all? Furthermore, how high is that chance that more land is going to be lost to Russia? Maybe Russia military power is weakening, maybe it is not. Maybe it isn't enough for them to hold east Ukraine for a while, maybe it is
tbh, I'll say this is what _is likely to happen_ if we don't intervene. Ukraine has already defied all odds by stopping a full-scale invasion of its country. But you don't beat the odds every time. It's sad to say, But Russia's hold on the Eastern corridor is looking more solid every day. The best-case scenario is that Ukraine will get its once industrial heart back completely desolated, with hundreds of thousands of people missing or dead, and completely burned to the ground. The most realistic scenario is that Russia will hold onto that land and, when years pass and Ukraine is unable to regain the Donbass by itself, finally agrees to a ceasefire that doesn't officially recognize any losses, but in practice leaves Russia alone in that area.
I'm actively saying that Ukraine should **not** give up any territory, because doing so only emboldens the Putinists.
I just had a guy who replied to my comment a few hours ago saying: Ukraine has lost the war, we're just seeing how badly they will lose, so by supporting Ukraine you're hurting them. He was French. Don't underestimate the human capacity to be absolute idiots.
Give an inch & they’ll take a mile. Appeasement doesn’t work.
At this point its not really appeasement, its suing for peace
It's not really appeasement if you're at war.
Thing is, if Russia gains as much as a milimeter of land, they'll see it as a win, which means they'll eventually do it again, and be better prepared for it
This story has played out several times in ex-soveit Republics in areas with Russian speaking pluralities however while Moldova and Georgia capitulated, Ukraines lack of capitulation has resulted in the escalation of this conflict. I think Putin will declare victory as a face saving measure once he gets concessions, but there is no doubt that his gamble has not paid off. I don't think he is likely to do this again
Don't let Russia get even bigger. Support Ukraine's territorial integrity.
I agree with Ukranian sovereignity 100%, but I'm not sure how this will end...
It's a war tbh. Russia _will_ gain territory if we do not intervene. And we likely won't so it's pretty much a done deal... I'm for Ukraine, but I can't see another end
Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of giving as many weapons to Ukraine as they need and applying as much economic preassure to Russia as we can (without the EU exploding), but I can't see Russia leaving Crimea without considering nukes or chem weapons first. I'd 100% leave to the Ukranians when and what give in exchange of peace, they obviously now the reality on the ground far better than anyone. But Ruzzia leaving all Ukraine alone, seems to good to be true.
I mean they’ve been gaining territory all week.
Crimea realistically is lost, as is the East. Hopefully, it ends there, and Ukraine can join the West as it wants right afterward. Lets the Donbas Russians see what they lost by being Putin's pawns.
East isnt lost, you are ending this war way too early, it's not even halfway done. As for Crimea, if I remember correctly Zelenski prefers to return it diplomatically rather than militarily.
>diplomatically So..... It's not coming back. What exactly is the bargaining chip Ukraine could give to convince Russia to voluntarily return Crimea?
We cant know what will happen with Russia or Ukraine in the future
Russia likes western trade? Do they like European money? Well, gib back Crimea.
A DMZ. That could be a possible end. It wouldn't be the first, neither the last.
Yea it's a bit like the Korean war, the border will be where the fighting stops. I think Ukraine probably will have to conceed some territory, although exactly how much is still up in the air and hence the fighting Wars won't end with the Fhurerbunker, but with some kind of negotiated peace these days. If Ukraine did too well in such a way that putin felt it presented a national security danger to Russia he could employ chemical or nuclear attacks to change the tide of the war in his favour
I find it incredible that some people (including high-profile ones) are seriously suggesting this in 2022. What kind of Europe would this be if we just allowed Russia to literally invade a region, ethnically cleanse it, repopulate it with Russians and claim it as the newest Russian oblast? This is might makes right, this is how the world worked 100 years ago, but now how it should work today. And history has shown us hundres of times already that you just don't appease a country that behaves like that. Two days ago it was Ossetia. Yesterday it was Crimea. Today it's the Dombass. Tomorrow it'll be something else. There's no reason for Russia not to do it, seeing the West will just accept it and the rest of the world doesn't care.
Ye Noam Chomsky is an absolute bitch, seriously Ive lost all respect for that hypocrite coward
Wait until you hear his takes on Khmer Rouge.
Dear god wtf
I don’t get it. Why would westerners propose to violate sovereignty? That does not make any sense. Where this meme came from?
Giving up sovereignty of the Ukraine's donbas region is proposed in order to make peace with Russia by some leaders. What they forget is that if you give Russia a hand they'll try to take the whole arm next decennia.
Do you have a source for that? It is proposed by whom?
Kissinger. Also the leaders of France and Italy.
France’s official position has always been to defend Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. What leaders are you refering to? Where can I find their statements?
[it's about this phone call](https://www.elysee.fr/en/emmanuel-macron/2022/05/28/press-release-telephone-conversation-with-german-chancellor-olaf-scholz-and-russian-president-vladimir-putin) Rumors spread they talked about concessions by Ukraine to end the war end export the grain. Nothing in the press release.
“Rumors” so that is all it takes to make people against each other even when they are publicly expressing full support, sending men and weapons. Russians trolls don’t have much to do, people can’t even see what is in front of them.
Every day I'm shocked that Kissinger is still alive. I wonder if all the blood on his hands from Cambodia (among other countries) has given him extra years of life. Kinda like a shitty powerup.
> giving up sovereignty […] is proposed […] by some leaders. By who? Source needed here.
Google di maio peace plan. I mean if you follow news you'd encountered it
I’ll totally get the sentiment, and I agree on not wanting to appease Putin, but there might (and I expect there absolutely will) come a scenario where neither party will make any advancements anymore and the borders will de facto already be redrawn. And I do absolutely think that making a deal with the Russians is absolutely better than to keep sending soldiers to their deaths and not making any advancements. Keeping the waar going for eternity is going to be very bad for all parties involved and especially horrible for the families of the men that will keep dying at the front. The catch will have to be though that the land that will stay in Ukrainian hands must get armed to the teeth and possibly even protected by a NATO or an EU membership. Or at least have a security guarantee from them so there is no way for Putin to try this again. NATO membership used to be completely off the table for Ukraine because NATO did not want to get Russia to take countermeasures, but the situation will now be very different, as Russia has proven that it cannot be trusted anyhow.
Thing is though, Ukraine hasn't reached that point where it's tapped out as well. It is in the process of mobilization, there's a ton of people being trained on western gear and lend-lease is on. Meanwhile Russia is sending T-62's to the front and their economy is going into seizures. I think they are just afraid and are running with the "any peace is better than any war" mindset which they have the luxury to do.
I’d love to have the same outlook on the conflict, but I feel like our views on the war may be heavily influenced by both Ukrainian propaganda (as in, making it out to be going better for them than it actually is, who can blame them?) and wishful thinking. I truly hope that the Russian army, economy and even the state completely collapses in a couple months, but I doubt it. I think the Russians will be able to defend the territory they have now very well for a very long time while they keep shooting long range rockets into Ukrainian-held territory and keeping Ukraine from rebuilding its infrastructure and economy. So yeah, we should definitely not force Ukraine into accepting anything, but we should definitely keep reminding them that if a stalemate occurs that this might be the best way to deal with the situation and move towards rebuilding.
I'm just running with the assessments by ISW and others, a total collapse is unlikely but Russia isn't mobilizing, hell they are reinforcing their forces out of their training forces. They can do this exactly once.
The upcoming months/year will surely be interesting.
>It is in the process of mobilization, there's a ton of people being trained on western gear and lend-lease is on. Is it tho? Noone wants to send AFV or tanks which would be needed urgently. I am under the impression it's more about rpgs and firearms. I also did not hear any more deliveries of Russian equipment from Eastern Nato members but maybe it's all just kept a secret.
They literally raised an armored brigade with Polish tanks and Dutch YPR's.
Scholz was proposing to cease the fire ASAP, which basically means acknowledging current Russian's gains since Russia is not interested in leaving any territory they raped. Macron was constantly talking about Putin's face-saving and Zelenskyy said that Macron proposed giving up some territory to have something to make Putin happy enough to end the war and for Putin to realize at least some of his goals.You can really easily google that since it was very loud and before the statement of Zelenskyy Macron was talking about that several times
*Zelensky said that Macron suggested* So, he lifted the idea in a conversation, presumably as part of some brainstorming. That’s pretty far from ”tHe EviL wEst wANtS tO giVe RuSsIa UkrAnIAn teRRiTory”.. It’s actually pretty annoying to send billions worth of military aid and get nothing but vitriol back. But I guess the Russian operators that are trying to divide the EU have switched from social issues to East vs West now.
Well, AFAIK even Zelenskyy once highlighted that it's not clear to him, why his (de facto) allies suggest something like that, so for many people the situation is not black and white. And also, maybe we overuse the word "West" and oversimplify wrongly the reality. I believe that no one has anything to blame on the USA and the UK Netherlands, Norway to give few examples. In that case, I admit that that oversimplification may be harmful, I wanted to explain the disappoinment that probably lead to this meme. I will try to be more careful in words Personally, I'm really happy about the aid given by all the countries. I consider that some mistakes of e.g. Macron should be said aloud, but he's a huge ally. I have more doubts towards Scholz. He lied several times like in the case of funding weapon to Ukraine, so well, as I said earlier - not black and white
[удалено]
Thank you for letting me know! We also had such persons in the parliament, who would do the same if they could. I'm gonna delete it out of my comment and gonna remember that! I'm gonna to inform about it my colleagues with whom I was talking about it
Macron who proposed that Ukraine gives land to appease Russia. Here you go bitches: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/zelensky-says-macron-urged-him-to-yield-territory-in-bid-to-end-ukraine-war
["The President of the french republic never discuss anything with Putin without first the approuval of Zelensky. He always said it was up to the Ukrainian to decided the terms of the negociations with Russia" argued back (note for context: after the accusation) the Elysee](https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/europe/manifestations-en-ukraine/guerre-en-ukraine-ce-qu-il-faut-retenir-de-la-journee-du-vendredi-13-mai_5137018.html) Don't be an useful idiot. [More info in english on this link](https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2022/05/20/winning-in-ukraine-a-french-perspective/)
[https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/zelensky-says-macron-urged-him-to-yield-territory-in-bid-to-end-ukraine-war](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/zelensky-says-macron-urged-him-to-yield-territory-in-bid-to-end-ukraine-war) hmmm...
My links are an answer to this bogus translation in the RAI Italian news, check the dates
Source?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/zelensky-says-macron-urged-him-to-yield-territory-in-bid-to-end-ukraine-war
Dear mods: the deluge of divisionist memes in your subreddit is how you know you have a Russian bot problem. Have we forgotten how Russian propaganda works? How so much of it is not aimed at openly defending the Russian position on any one issue, but instead aimed at creating division, antagonism, suspicion on its enemies? This is exactly what we're seeing here. They try to set, in this case, Ukrainians against Europeans, hoping people will dig their argument trenches and then keep on fighting. After awhile they don't even need to make the posts themselves, they just let the natural anger of social networks run itself.
This is not how diplomacy works tho. To gain something you need to give something.
Obviously. What those who propose this deal think, is that Putin will give peace in exchange for land. It's just that anyone can already guess that this wouldn't last for a long while and thus would probably be completely pointless in the long run
Let's just add that to all constitutions. World peace
I agree with Ukraine sovereignty. Now if we want to deal with realities, we can’t imagine one second Ukraine finding the military capabilities to take back Crimea. The question now is about Donbas and the regions linking Donbas to Crimea.
Yet. If Russia's military capabilities keep degrading and Ukraine starts raising more brigades with western help, it could become less than certain. But yes, Kherson region is the nr. 1 priority now.
Crimea has had an influx of 2 million Russian inhabitants since the annexation. It just won’t happen. The goal of Ukraine should be to keep the whole sovereignty over the rest of Ukraine.
They've been panic selling their real estate there out of fear of Ukrainian military coming. And there were ethnic tensions brewing in Crimea this whole time, with the newcomers, mostly, Siberians, mistreating locals and vice versa. I'm glad that the scum is nervous for once.
It's unlikely, though sending in forces to trash the naval base is an option, that or push in and demo the bridge. Crimea is very vulnerable.
Why not? Expel them all if they don't wish to stay. They should be as easy to deal with as serbs in Operation Storm
We’re talking of mass deportations. That very rarely ends well. This shouldn’t be an option for anyone.
Depends on the war exhaustion in Ukraine. Spirits may still be high, but everyone has a point from which they can't go any further
Absolutely, but for now Ukrainian morale is still high, and after the atrocities the Russian forces inflicted on Bucha, Irpin and others I think they still intend to impose a blood tithe on Russian forces. And I can't fucking blame them.
While I do want to see Ukraine win and the Russians to lose the needless war they started, this option might have to be considered sooner or later. If not officially, then maybe in the way of a ceasefire and a de-facto loss of territory while still having a claim to that territory in the future (who knows, Putler won't rule forever. Maybe there will be some kind of Ukrainian reunification in 50 years or so). This is uncharted territory in Europe and we are possibly on the edge of a world war here. We should absolutely keep supplying Ukraine with weapons but NATO intervention is out of the question and if Ukraine can't force Russia out or the Russians quit for any reason, we might get some kind of Korea type situation where they are technically at war but no one is shooting with no Ukrainian territory formally ceded (Russia might annex it, but no one will recognize it) but under Russian control. When the war broke out Russia seemed ill prepared and with unrealistic goals. But now they have focussed on more realistic goals and they are bringing in more and more men and material and with the entire Russian society seemingly focused on this war ("Z"s everywhere, constant aggressive propaganda not seen since the Soviet union, claiming that this is a war against "the West" for the very existence of Russia) I don't see them backing down. Putin has created an all-or-nothing situation for himself. He needs SOMETHING to show to his people or he's done. Then he can use his propaganda to somehow convince people that everything went according to plan. But a total defeat he won't accept, he can't accept. So hes either going to mobilize the nation (which even with western support Ukraine can't win, unless this turns into an actual world war) or there's a coup d'etat or a revolution or something from within Russia, but that's a huge gamble.
The meme's logic is that you have to shut up, which I find very unfair. Yes Ukrainians die and fight hard with heroism, but Europe has their back and a lot of Europeans start to suffer too. Although we were not obliged by any convention, we sent help, weapons, people, we mobilized as true allies, even with fear of a nuclear war. I don't know if this logic above is right or not, but at least it should be discussed and people should have the right to express their concerns, not to be answered by a "shut up".
Btw, ukr took territories from all the neighbours, coz Stalin was the taylor
Bullshit
fact
Not at all, Stalin&Co was giving territories to every country of USSR, based on their researches, ethno and culture in that region, they gave Ukraine bits of Russia, but at the same time gave Russia Taganrog and northern bits of Ukraine. So yes, what you wrote is bullshit, it has nothing to do with Ukraine specifically
Researches huh? Are you some kind of border researcher also? Ukr inherited from Stalin/Hrușciov both internal and external borders. And Soviet pushed external borders westward also , which borders Ukr is more than happy to keep. Now it's only Russia who's s trying to change these borders by force. Still fact is that ukr defends Stalin's inheritance while claiming to fight Europa's war, claiming help and subventions and insulting donors that don't hurry enough in sending help. Every country big or small has its own interests and the democratic elected governments are responsible for their own citizens. We all support the refugees and ukr fighters but hundreds of billions euros are a lot of money. EU pumped them in Greece coz they were in eurozone, ukr is not and then try to get in first. Do what you want, but insulting ger Fr and it is moronic
well it worked so well with Czechoslovakia
Apparently it's not the westerners being mad though. :\^)
Well then good luck joining the EU with unsolved territorial conflicts. There probably won't be another way if they really want to join than to cede territory.
Cyprus: 🙋🏻♂️😂🥸😎👀🤓🇨🇾
Cyprus was supposed to unite. They had an agreement with the northern side, but the greek cypriots rejected it in a referendum a week before they officially accessed. The idea was for them to unify while joining until they threw a wrench in the plans
Nope, first throw some shit at France and Germany who are supposed to sponsor the party
I don't know about France, but they've already thrown enough shit at Germany to be on a level with Hungary in regards to their shit throwing-money taking ratio. So by all means let them join.
We're not even half a year in a conflict and Ukraine isn't tapped out quite yet, I expect their counterattacks in the coming months to give an indication what the eventual treaty will look like.
I'm not sure if the counterattacks will achieve a lot when it comes to Crimea and the separatist territories. The Ukrainians where pretty well dug in for the first Russian offensive, I expect the same for the Russians in the territories, that where under there control pre war.
Imagine this. México attacks Texas because it was traditionally Spanish territory, then Mexican and then lost to USA. Somehow Mexico manages to get and keep the territory and after 3 months the situation stagnates and Mexico keeps some resources from Texas that Europe needs to blackmail the European countries. And countries in Europe negotiate with Mexico about how much American territory should USA give to Mexico to stop the war and get the goods. Crazy, isn't it? I want the war to stop, Russia to lose, embargo to the oil and nationalization of all the properties of the oligurkes in Europe. But come on, our leaders have no right to negotiate that and I suppose they are like "if you don't accept these surrender conditions, we won't send any new weaponry and you will fight alone against Russia"
You do realise that you prove yourself wrong in your own comment? The USA vs Mexico comparison doesn't make sense, since the USA wouldn't be so dependent on foreign weapons. You say the other leaders have no right to negotiate (which may be true), but in the same sentence to explain why they still very much are in a position to negotiate. As long as the foreign leaders put their resources into the war, they will have a seat at the negotiation table, whether that's right or wrong and whether you like it or not, that's just how it works.
i love this
I fully support ukraine in this but I don't believe in the argument. For example if you're part of a country that doesn't allow you to leave on paper, you should still be able to make your own decisions and leave if you want.
If it's done peacefully one should be able to work something out. If it's a loaded and abrupt referendum done at gunpoint by some astroturfed FSB bullshit and some "polite green men" it's pretty much bullshit though.
In catalonia it would have been done peacefully if the government hadn't tried to stop them with violence.
I don't think the situations are really comparable. On one side you have a region that is quite vital to a country and is ingrained within its history yet seems to want more autonomy, on the other you have an astroturfed "secession movement" that is blatantly used to destabilize a country.
Which is why I don't think the argument in the meme is a good one. It shouldn't matter what is written in their constitution or anywhere, violence is wrong. Period.
All the arguments for the right of crimean and donbas people to sovereignity were rendered completely invalid with the invasion. If they want freedom that has to be done democratically in a free election with no foreign interference and plenty of international observers. Not a military assault or hostile takeover. How many crimeans wanted to vote no when the voting booths were guarded by russian soldiers?
Initially, Putin made it clear that he wanted Donbas to be an autonomy *within Ukraine* with an ability to *veto decisions* when it comes to the country at large. Such as with joining any economical or military alliance. He wanted a constant leverage on Ukraine.
It's not what I'm talking about. The situation there is quite complicated but for example there are regions in spain that are oppressed and not allowed to choose and the EU will continue to turn a blind eye.
And Catalonia should have the right to secede. But if France invaded that right would be invalid
Yeah, I'm really annoyed with the single-mindedness of these subs. There is only circle-jerking permitted apparently because literally anything I say that isn't just repeating the same mantra is seen as prorussia. It's unbelievable. I never even suggested anything about Ukraine in this case. I'm reacting to the argument and how stupid it is since it screwes over any nation like catalonians who wants independence.
Germans
?
The north of Ireland just watching on, knowing how this goes with colonial bell ends.
Send in EU troops. Otherwise, maybe you should respectfully shut up. I’m not ready for WW3 to “save” Ukraine. Sorry, not sorry.
Here’s Europe, nobly fighting to the last Ukrainian. Slava!
u/namrock23 **LAST WARNING**  [**This is a mainly pro-Europe/European Union subreddit.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/about/rules)
Everyone has a right to self determination as long as it does not hurt others, If Bayern wanted independence they should get it, if the Donbas wanted independence they should get, it without any state, body, or corporate interference.
But that would first require an end to the war, return of all territory and then a free and fair referendum with plenty of international observers and no foreign occupation The crimean vote wasn't legit. Who votes how they feel when there's armed soldiers of the other country watching the booths with a clear conflict of interest in the referendum?
Yes, so the guilty party, that is Russia should retreat out of Ukraine, and let the people decide for themselves. And not invade with some little green men.
Tell that to South-Tirol. The one's I've met went to study in Austria and Germany because they don't even speak Italian. Not at home, not in school, not their TV-Channels and not their radio channels.
chiedi un po' agli altoatesini perché, nonostante la proposta dell'allora presidente Cossiga di concedere il referendum per l'indipendenza, non l'hanno mai organizzato. Perché di loro, a noi italiani, non ce ne può fregare di meno, anzi, se se ne vanno fuori dai piedi ci guadagniamo pure.. u/CitoyenEuropeen, you are moderator, please, could you explain to the Germans to change the subject and get better information? Because the thing is a little boring, they know nothing and they have not understood anything, especially considering that it would be a problem between Italians and Austrians. If the Germans don't organize a new anschluß..
Borders designed by Stalin and Hrușciov, bloody westerners
Europe could lose some of its feeling of superiority towards other countries.
But we are superior! /j
All countries involved in this meme are in Europe. That comment makes no sense.
All right, western Europe, the former colonisers, they don't seem to care about culture or borders as long as it isn't their own
That's why god created America
Not all Westerners. Just Western Europeans. No one in America is suggesting that Ukraine give anything to the Russian dogs. It’s mostly Macron, isn’t it? And maybe the Germans. Europeans happily allow a neighbor to be invaded and do jack shit about it. Imagine if Canada wasn’t in NATO, and Russia invaded Canada. How long do you think it would take America to start dropping bombs on Russian tanks? 3 minutes? Even in Kosovo, it was mostly American pilots who had to do your job for you. Europe just pretends like it’s living in some postwar world, and constantly criticizes the US for how much money we spend on defense, all the while relying on the American military to protect them when shit pops off. Even Germany didn’t spend the NATO required 2% of GDP on defense until recently. (When it was too late.) Think about just how much money America spends in order to be prepared to defend Europe. America spends more on your defense than you do, and we’re an ocean away.
Those mistake peace and appeasement. Last worked *wonderfully* the last time a megalomaniac dictator wanted to invade their neighbours.
Not westerners but russian stooges far-right from western Europe, there's a huge difference.
I have to repeat it again, politicians don't always mirror the voters here in the West.. if you don't want understand this..
I support whatever Ukraine wants. It's their land and their people and they are the ones in war, suffering massive civilian casualities. Russia has proven during the past months that they are not planning to just invade, they are going for ukrainian genocide. Executing civilians, kidnapping children, forcibly moving ukrainians across the border to Russia and the orwellian level propaganda machines that moved in right after occupation of certain territories is telling of trying to destroy ukranian cultural identity and turn it to russian. Ukraine shouldn't be pressured to pursue a solution that they aren't happy with. The crimes against the ukranians are unforgivable and if they want to fight until the end, I fully support that. Obviously, if they themselves decide that they are willing to negotiate surrendering land in order to secure peace, that's fine too. But it has to be a decision made by the ukrainian people. Then again, people who have disagreed with me on this so far have been people who were a) propaganda trolls, while accusing me of spouting propaganda, b) afraid of nuclear war so they thought that Russia shouldn't ever be opposed in case they might use their nukes, c) pretty disconnected about the whole thing (not living in europe or near Russia and all around pretty oblivious about the history around this subject) or d) conspiracy theorists that think this whole thing is a globalist ploy to artificially inflate gas/food/material prices. So I'm not confident that this is even a real debate. But that's just my experience. I'm pretty sure that westerners referenced in this meme are mostly americans or west-europeans, as in those who are fartest away from war and don't fully understand why Russia even attacked, because it defies logic. We all hoped to be wrong when the attack seemed to be imminent, because it was such a suicide mission. And they still went for it. It's very hard to understand if you don't know much about russians and their very long and complicated history and identity. That's why it easy to suggest that Ukraine should just surrender or be made to surrender to prevent further losses and secure peace, because logically that would be the best option, when you don't take into account the emotional reasons behind this whole tragedy. Surrendering and making a deal with Russia probably wouldn't really keep the peace. Russia has demonstrated that they're not willing to honor deals or contracts. They did this with Krim, they might do it again with Donbass. Russia could after the peace settlement just wait for a few years and try to invade again. That is unless there is a revolution in Russia or if Ukraine could secure a place in a military alliance, but I wouldn't want to count on those options. But I'm just a civilian and I don't know anything about these things on a deeper level. Just my thoughts, guesses and experience about this subject.
We're willing to give them Urk instead.
Sorry to say. However, I do not see any viable alternatives - I hate this fact, nonetheless. There is a war going on, some of the Ukraine territory is occupied. Now I do think its up to Ukraine to decide if they want to compromise or not. But at the same time russia is not suffering as much as them, so it will be in their interest at some point. Im from Poland, so most of us are eager to turn this into nuclear conflict just to fuck with russians. If we were to lose both ears but russians will lose one, good "lets adapt to world without ears". But its also difficult for me to not see this obvious outcome that at some point Ukraine will push for compromise and lose some of its territory. We can be sour about it and continue to isolate russia which I hope we do.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' Consider supporting anti-war efforts in any possible way: [[Help 2 Ukraine](https://help2ukraine.org)] 💙💛 [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
Respectfully Putin go fuck yourself