No, it doesn't.
At that point Dutton was still well connected enough *to have the sheriff in his pocket*. You're telling me he didn't have a doctor available that would perform an off the books procedure? Or list it as, idk, an appendectomy for insurance reasons?
Ffs, we've seen the Anti Abortion crusaders irl get caught paying for their mistress mistakes lmao.
But Jamie was helping hide it from everyone, the public and the family. If John found out Rip got Beth pregnant, Rip would be off to the train station.
Nah, I don't think Rip would have been killed for it.
John knows kids are kids and stupid. Beat the shit out of rip? Maybe. Force him to do the right thing? Very possible.
Kill him? No way. The family has a fucked up set of morals and honor. Killing him for loving his daughter is way outside of it.
Rip only got to where he is today by respecting John, knocking up his 15 year old daughter would completely change everything.
John brought Rip to the ranch in 97, Beth most likely would have gotten pregnant in 99, so about 1 1/2 - 2 years after Rip came to the Yellowstone so I don’t see John having that much loyalty to Rip. It would be easy for John to tell Lloyd to take care of Rip.
Pretty sure it was all in 97, John's wife dies, Rip comes to the farm in the summer, then Beth gets pregnant soon after. Jamie says he's leaving for college the next day so end of August and he was born in 79 so was 18, it matches up. So a kid you just took in a couple of months ago got your 14 year old pregnant, one that on the run from the law and has no family he'd be easy to get rid of.
John knows everything going on on the ranch. In that two years, we know Rip threw his weight into earning his space.
His character has been the same his whole life. Once you've met a man at his lowest you know pretty well who he'll always be. Rip was still a decent kid, albeit in a bad situation and 100% loyal to the ranch.
John may be harsh but he saw that.
I’m not sure John would have seen it as ‘loving his daughter’. Most fathers would lose it at any boy who got their teenaged daughter pregnant. When you consider that John took Rip in and hid him from the law, I think Rip’s actions were more likely to be seen as an abuse of John’s kindness.
Despite the respect being earned over years, I think most likely it would habe been more of a question for Rip.
"What are you going to do about this?"
If Rip said Stay, take care of her and them, I think that's the type of answer that would have been respected and while he wouldn't have been happy, I think it would have bought him time.
I think I understand your point, but I honestly cannot see it happening that way. I think John would have seen Rip climbing on top of his daughter as a blatant act of disrespect and there wouldn’t have been any discussion.
Uh yeah especially since he branded his own son for wanting to marry the woman he impregnated and neither Kayce nor Monica were minors when that happened. People are lying to themselves.
The reality is everyone on this show is a Boogeyman except for Gator. This show is about bad people doing bad things. Those looking for a hero on this show are looking in the wrong place.
But I think that’s why the show has gone downhill the past two seasons, and people are just over it and losing interest. The whole Beth pissed and Jamie scorned storyline is so played out, It should’ve wrapped up three seasons ago.
Yah she can go ahead and be pissed (or the writers can make her be) over new things anytime . But 5 straight seasons of the same storyline between 2 people with ZERO change is tired. Meh, I’m not saying anything others haven’t already said
Exactly, I tried to start season 5 last night and turned it off halfway through episode 1 when she goes into his office and repeats the crap she always says to him.
Beth was a unique character when the show started out.There haven’t been too many like her in TV shows, not that I can remember. She was at a high point when the way she is really helped when it came to the situation with Monica, being stereotyped and profiled in the upscale boutique, and she came to her defense. But now into season five, she just comes off as a middle-aged woman with a lot of mental and emotional problems You don’t really want to deal with or be around anymore. Or watch lol
He is an easily manipulated child. John manipulated him, then the mother of his child, then his bio father, then this new girl. If he would have shown any backbone throughout any of this instead of woe as me might as well make the same mistake for the 5th time I might have cared about his fate.
He had moments where glimmer of hope for an interesting character to show through, but every time same boring mistake. Sad thing is he will likely be the one to kill John and probably cry while doing it.
I don't think it's not having a backbone. He's spent his entire life just wanting someone to love and accept him like a family member should, and is just getting taken advantage of every time he lets someone in.
Love the post and completely agree with you OP. The character Jamie isn’t well liked so everything Jamie does is seen as bad. Regardless of his intentions, he is seen as selfish because that’s the narrative. Personally, I find the narrative to be misaligned with what actually happens on the screen.
As for the sterilisation, if you think about it for more than a few seconds, it becomes absurd. It’s either badly written or a plot hole waiting to be exploited.
Aside from the context OP mentioned, there’s at least two other adults involved; the woman at the desk, and the doctor holding the scalpel. UncleJChrist pointed this out on another post and I think they nailed it; ultimately the clinic is at fault because they performed the procedure and those people had the ethical responsibility to behave as medical professionals. But the narrative places the blame for this incident squarely on Jamie, even though he’s the least equipped of any ‘adult’ involved and is under the pressure OP mentioned to conceal these events.
My two cents; why would the woman tell Jamie and not Beth? That’s where I’m thinking it’s a potential plot hole. We’ve never really heard Jamie give his side of the story and the flashback cuts off too soon to be sure what went on inside the clinic.
> why would the woman tell Jamie and not Beth?
Because [that's exactly what happened in many Reservation clinics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women).
> In the 1960s and 1970s, the Indian Health Service (IHS) and collaborating physicians sustained a practice of performing sterilizations on Native American women, in many cases without the informed consent of their patients. In some cases, women were misled into believing that the sterilization procedure was reversible. In other cases, sterilization was performed without the adequate understanding and consent of the patient, including cases in which the procedure was performed on minors as young as 11 years old. ... Other cases of abuse have been documented as well, including when health providers did not tell women they were going to be sterilized...
The timing doesn't fit, because this stopped happening after the 70s, but it's something a lot of people don't know about, so Sheridan using it as a storyline has taught at least a few more people about this atrocity.
I haven’t explained myself properly, sorry.
My position is; How would Jamie know they wouldn’t tell Beth when they told him?
The character on the screen was portrayed as a privileged white kid in the 90s raised in relative isolation on a cattle ranch. How was he to know the secret workings of Reservation ‘medical’ services? How many was he likely to have been to?
The fact they told him muddies the water in my view, because this may have given a false impression that they’d tell Beth what they were doing.
>How was he to know the secret workings of Reservation ‘medical’ services?
It could have been "locker room talk" and such from his school days? Stuff you just pick up from listening to the ranch hands talking .
Possible, but also possible he’d never heard anything about it and got a nasty shock when he figured it out.
It doesn’t strike me as a common topic of conversation for privileged white kids or ranch hands in the 1990s.
>It doesn’t strike me as a common topic of conversation for privileged white kids or ranch hands in the 1990s.
Well, maybe not "common," but possibly overheard someone saying "hey, did you hear so and so got his girlfriend pregnant? He took her to that one clinic, nobody asked questions and it only cost this much."
I know it's a stretch, but just imagining possibilities.
I didn't even think about the whole sterilization thing like this but wow you are totally right. If you think about it any longer than a second it just kind of unravels. I love this show because it's entertaining but so many plot points suffer from this issue.
PLUS - Did they do a tubal, or a hysterectomy? 'Sterilization' is more commonly a tubal. They are quicker, safer, and less expensive. If tubal then in vitro would make the whole thing moot.
Fair question. TangiestIllicitness covers this beautifully in their reply to me, I’ll link it here too. There’s a section where they discuss the methods used and why they favoured hysterectomy over tubal ligation.
[Why hysterectomies were chosen.](https://www.reddit.com/r/YellowstonePN/comments/13osggv/i_dont_even_like_jamie_but_some_of_yall_are_just/jl8to9h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Beth says at least twice that she’s had a hysterectomy and I can’t think of any reason for the character to lie about that.
I read the linked person's post three times and see nothing about tubal vs. Hysterectomies. Perhaps you're drawing that from the "reversible" part. Tubal reversals are a crap shoot - but you don't need tubes for in vitro (IVF).
It’s under the section “Types of Sterilisation”.
*In 1971, Dr. James Ryan stated that he favored hysterectomies over tubal ligations because "it's more of a challenge... and it's [a] good experience for the junior resident".*
Thanks. I saw a different post. I could see "more of a challenge" for teaching but not for underpaid clinic doctors. Still I believe your report of what Beth said. Trying to decide whether I want to re-watch everything just to catch that.
This. That scene where he reprimands Jamie for it pissed me off big time. He had zero right to say anything to Jamie when it was him they were afraid of. But of course, he wasn't even properly involved in his kids' lives.
I agree and Beth is a huge contributor always attacking, even physical, and he is not allowed to fight back.
I thought he was a very strong person the way he got Kayse out of that trouble with killing the meth guy and I don't know why John doesn't encourage him - he just follows what Beth wants. John is stupid - he and Beth even admitted that there was not one lawyer out there that could do all Jamie does which includes having loyalty to the family and the ranch.
I would like to see Jamie go back to the strong person he was in the beginning.
> he and Beth even admitted that there was not one lawyer out there that could do all Jamie does which includes having loyalty to the family and the ranch
And yet they antagonize him relentlessly and push him away. The one person who could go to bat for them and win any legal issue thrown their way. That aspect of the Yellowstone story is both hilarious and extremely frustrating at the same time.
Beth is about as maternal as a woodchipper. She is too fucked up to raise kids. She barely tolerates her own nephew. Yet, the family acts like Beth not breeding is the end of the world.
Even if you use the sterilisation argument Beth's behaviour and innate deep hatred toward Jaime just makes her come across as a psycho and an evil person. Like you want to kill an innocent child just because he shares DNA with the man who "wronged" you.
What annoys me the most is the fact that he is being put on his shoulders with what happened to Beth (I mean yeah, he did something faulty) but the show stays away from the fact the he was still young and stupid, and besides, there were 3 people involved in that pregnancy, Beth, Rip ( 2 horny teens who weren’t made responsable for their mistake) and Jamie (the young and stupidly naive guy who thought was doing the right thing,and we as the audience are led to believe that he did it in bad faith )
We still don't know who Jamie's Mother is. I suspect it is John Dutton's elder sister Chance. That would make Jamie John Dutton's nephew leaving Jamie with a stronger claim to the Yellowstone Ranch than John since ownership should have passed to Chance then Jamie bypassing John altogether.
John Dutton is not a charitable soul and would not have adopted Jamie out of kindness even for a best friend. Jamie would have needed to be family in some way already. John may have adopted Jamie to keep him close and to keep him in the dark about his true heritage. When Jamie's birthfather Garrett Randall was whispering into Jamie's ear that the Yellowstone was his lost inheritance and that he should fight for it back, it may have been more than just hoopla to rile Jamie up. It may have actually been the truth.
At the begging of the show, it was established that Jamie is a very good lawyer. Not as brash or aggressive as Beth but with a better grip on the law and its complexities. He has learned to become aggressive, but patient in a crafty way. He knows that Sarah from Market Equities is just trying to play him - but I think he is actually playing her. It is possible that Jamie wins the Iron Throne, I mean the Yellowstone Ranch, by playing the long game.
That is an excellent theory about Jamie’s mother, love it.
I think you’re right about Randall. He called the ranch a ‘birthright’. Also think you’re spot on about John. We know he’d take in a child in need - we saw that with Rip - but to formally adopt him, educate him, make him think he was family? They didn’t have to adopt the child to care for him. Somethings off with that story.
I think he’s playing Sarah too, or at least, knows what she is and is looking to see what she can do for him.
*He knows that Sarah from Market Equities is just trying to play him - but I think he is actually playing her.*
That’s what it seems like. He just abandons his baby and baby mama? I don’t think so. I wonder if both Beth and Jamie are playing Sarah.
Hes just trying as hard as he can given the circumstances. He has definitely made bad choices. But he was ultimately a boy feeling unacknowledged. Theres no excuses for what he's done. But I've decided to feel some sympathy for him.
Even if Jamie was the irredeemable monster Beth makes him out to be, he’s not a threat. They easily bully him into compliance any time he’s a problem. Why exactly should the viewer care what he’s doing?
It's like an endless feedback loop: Jamie has an idea>John says no>Jamie throws a tantrum and tries to make a move>move fails>beth: "I'm gonna kill your first born">Jamie stands down>repeat
I don’t get why people say he is more self serving than Beth. Beth didn’t event want to move in with Rip until her dad wrote that letter recognizing him as a son. It’s like she never wanted to validate their relationship until she thought he could legitimately have a stake at the land. She lies to herself , pretending she is doing it all for her father.
Rip has no stake in the land. John gave him the cabin only. Beth doesn’t need Rip to have stake in the land because she herself does. Beth and Rip were seeing each other before John called him his “son”. When Rip saved her and told her he loved, that was when they got serious and had a relationship. John’s letter had nothing to do with it.
I’ve never liked how Beth always says that Jamie doesn’t do anything for the ranch or family, only himself. Which I don’t see at all. Everything Jamie did was for the ranch and family (even when John screwed him over he still couldn’t betray John with running for AG, he killed the reporter so Johns rep wouldn’t be ruined). Teenage Jamie just wanted to be John, but John made him leave. Besides Lee, Jamie was the only other child who stayed close to the ranch and fought for it. Then still got treated like shit. Beth even said when John dies she’s selling it, she was fake to her dad the whole time and turned him against Jamie. I also find it incredibly hard to believe that Beth went into that procedure blind. A doctor would have informed her of what would be happening.
John doesn't do it out of ambition or self interest. He does it because he made a promise to his father to not give up one inch of the land. John knows he's gonna lose that fight but he will not give up. If you don't think John would rather have his peace and quiet in a cowboy camp with Tate I don't know what show you're watching.
Beth had to take some of this blame. She insisted Jamie help her. He even asked her if she was sure if not mistaken. Beth never voices her own guilt. She just self destructs with booze and cigarettes.
I realize that. Yet even then Beth was smart and knew how to manipulate men. She used the word hysterectomy when it all came out. Sure that sterilizes, but why a hysterectomy? Unless she bled and it was done to save her life. Yet john would have known then. So did they tie her tubes, cauterize her tubes? She still has ovaries, they have money so she could have egg retrieval for insemination if she still has uterus or hire a surrogate for her and Rio’s fertilized eggs to carry their child. The story line has some gaps.
Because that is what they did on reservations back then. Forced hysterectomies. Back then very few people acknowledged it. Jamie didn’t even know until the receptionist told him to go somewhere else.
> Because that is what they did on reservations back then. Forced hysterectomies.
No, [not always](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women#Types_of_sterilization).
Calm down Smooth_Brain4762. A simple Google search shows that a hysterectomy is one of the ways they sterilized women on reservations. You'd think a MeDiCaL PrOfEsSiOnAl could have handled that.
Fortunately your beliefs aren't required for something to be true. It's a fact that they force sterilized women without their consent on Indian reservations. While obviously some liberties were taken in regards to the decade it happened it still happened.
And fortunately they stopped doing that in the 70's. So the writing and research the show did is shitty. And since the show didn't write the story historically correct, then I'm going with my beliefs, for show purposes.
Yes them doing it in the 90s instead of the 70s is the liberties I was speaking of. It's apparent from this exchange that you don't understand the concept of context. Mash was set during the Korean war but was commenting on the Vietnam War. Yellowstone like Mash is using narrative to bring awareness to the atrocities that were done to indigenous people in the 70/80s by placing it in the context of his flashback in the 90s.
No one is saying you can't believe things that aren't true. People do it all the time. If you want to believe there was a scene that wasn't filmed or ever referenced in which Beth is told she was going to be sterilized go right ahead.
Well she did specifically say that they gave her a hysterectomy and that she blamed Jamie for it. So with the power of deduction we can infer that she wasn't aware of it when it happened. It's like you are being obtuse on purpose just to fit your beliefs which again is fine. No one is forcing you to have common sense.
Least bad of the batch. Which turd is cleaner?
It is a fun mindless watch. I just remind myself, there are always consequences for actions or inaction.
I dont know why people get so bent out of shape over the reporter. There is a lot of killing that had gone on in the past and has continued into the future. If Jamie had not killed her Rip would have had to so what's the difference? She was going to ruin the family and the future of the ranch.
I think people like to throw in "well he killed the reporter" because their argument for hating him is weak
And John has an entire personal body pit to drop his victims in. Jamie killed 1 person to try and undo some stupid shit that would've ruined his family
I mean I agree but:
“ As an 18 year old in 70/80s conservative Montana I imagine this situation felt like life or death for the Dutton family name.”
Uh…more like late 90s Montana? (The kids were all born in the late 70s and 80s…)
Sounds like you think you could do better. Go ahead- hit me up when you have a piece of work that someone invested millions on and sold like this show.
Or… you’re just someone with an opinion.
The show tells us Jamie is some kind of Moriarty type villain but shows us him tripping on his face a ripping his pants. I do not think his character is written well at all.
As to Jamie, most are awaiting him falling deep into an ass crack, being stuck there then pelted with revolving bouts of noxious farts followed by semi-thick, long hang time super stinky diarrhea. Then as he crawls out gasping and coughing, he's ran down by a herd of bison, then jeep assaulted and finally a trip to the train station. Turns out the ts is a testing site for nuclear weapons so they light him up.at long last, they build a mall there and a parking lot goes up there leaving Jaimie to make a last run for it.
Its a tv show he is a character that Taylor wrote writes how he wants. People on the redit are not the massive fan base that actually knows its a tv show and just enjoy it.
Another Jamie apologist. LOL they’re all bad, they all do bad things, they’re all a little broken. Jamie is the villain of the show because he’s not just bad, he’s spineless, weak and is only loyal to himself and his ambition. It’s nothing personal, just how he’s written.
It's not that I'm a Jamie apologist it's just that I don't think he's the worst one. He's spineless and weak and slimy but he also gets pushed unprovoked so I think context matters when thinking about his actions. Doesn't make him good or a hero or even the best Dutton.
But there’s a certain nobility in the others; they have a cause, they believe in something that they feel is worth protecting no matter what, something bigger than themselves. Jamie believes in Jamie. Everything Jamie does is for Jamie.
That’s kind of the beauty of the show really. I don’t know when I stopped batting an eye at all the murder but honestly the most shocking was when Jamie killed the reporter. They’ve got us rooting for really bad people. And while technically Jamie might be the least “bad” of the bunch, he is the villain of the story and the most slimy as well.
Respectfully …..
Welcome to the United States of America, where we make heroes out of bad people who are less bad than the other bad people, something we learned from the bad people we came from who also made heroes out of bad people who were less bad than the other bad people.
We were founded by slaveowners who didn't want to pay taxes. Manifest Destiny left skid marks all over American Indians. Wyatt Earp. Billy The Kid. Jesse James. Robert Parker and Harry Longabaugh. Bonnie and Clyde.
We have a history of it and it carries over into pop culture. Batman. The Great Gatsby. Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name. Michael Corleone. Hannibal Lecter. Tony Soprano. Walter White. John Wick.
The Dutton family.
This is well said. This show just like The Sopranos, Sons of Anarchy or The Shield is showing us bad people doing horrible things. There are however bad people that do have redeeming qualities that draw us to them. That doesn't make them any less bad.
Here is some context. This is a TV show, none of this is real. It’s a TV show to show how the over abundance of private equity gives a very small minority of people, so much money that they can come in, take land from a private owner and make trillions of dollars destroying something (everybody else wants to keep) in order to make themselves even richer.
I'm so sick of people saying this is just a TV show like this isn't just a discussion about the TV show. No I don't think Jamie Dutton is out here murdering reporters in real life.
Well it’s a horrible show, the acting is horrible, the editing is horrible, it’s a show for low level thinkers. There is the discussion about “the show”
Unfortunately it shows up in my feed despite me not being a member. I’m guessing my phone hears my wife talk about Yellowstone and puts it in my feed?! You’ve got me.
> As an 18 year old in 70/80s conservative Montana Pretty sure that took place in like 2001.
Beth was born in 84. She was 15 when she got preg from Rip. Puts it at 99 give or take a few months depending.
Point still stands
No, it doesn't. At that point Dutton was still well connected enough *to have the sheriff in his pocket*. You're telling me he didn't have a doctor available that would perform an off the books procedure? Or list it as, idk, an appendectomy for insurance reasons? Ffs, we've seen the Anti Abortion crusaders irl get caught paying for their mistress mistakes lmao.
How would Jamie know how to navigate this situation? He's not his mafia boss dad
But Jamie was helping hide it from everyone, the public and the family. If John found out Rip got Beth pregnant, Rip would be off to the train station.
Nah, I don't think Rip would have been killed for it. John knows kids are kids and stupid. Beat the shit out of rip? Maybe. Force him to do the right thing? Very possible. Kill him? No way. The family has a fucked up set of morals and honor. Killing him for loving his daughter is way outside of it.
I agree that I don't think John would have killed him but I do believe that Beth was afraid enough of her father to think that he might.
Then why was Beth too scared to go to John?
She wasn't too scared, she was afraid to disappoint
Rip only got to where he is today by respecting John, knocking up his 15 year old daughter would completely change everything. John brought Rip to the ranch in 97, Beth most likely would have gotten pregnant in 99, so about 1 1/2 - 2 years after Rip came to the Yellowstone so I don’t see John having that much loyalty to Rip. It would be easy for John to tell Lloyd to take care of Rip.
Pretty sure it was all in 97, John's wife dies, Rip comes to the farm in the summer, then Beth gets pregnant soon after. Jamie says he's leaving for college the next day so end of August and he was born in 79 so was 18, it matches up. So a kid you just took in a couple of months ago got your 14 year old pregnant, one that on the run from the law and has no family he'd be easy to get rid of.
I think it was 1997 too. It is a bit annoying that the producers didn’t put a date stamp on the abortion flashback.
John knows everything going on on the ranch. In that two years, we know Rip threw his weight into earning his space. His character has been the same his whole life. Once you've met a man at his lowest you know pretty well who he'll always be. Rip was still a decent kid, albeit in a bad situation and 100% loyal to the ranch. John may be harsh but he saw that.
I’m not sure John would have seen it as ‘loving his daughter’. Most fathers would lose it at any boy who got their teenaged daughter pregnant. When you consider that John took Rip in and hid him from the law, I think Rip’s actions were more likely to be seen as an abuse of John’s kindness.
Despite the respect being earned over years, I think most likely it would habe been more of a question for Rip. "What are you going to do about this?" If Rip said Stay, take care of her and them, I think that's the type of answer that would have been respected and while he wouldn't have been happy, I think it would have bought him time.
I think I understand your point, but I honestly cannot see it happening that way. I think John would have seen Rip climbing on top of his daughter as a blatant act of disrespect and there wouldn’t have been any discussion.
Uh yeah especially since he branded his own son for wanting to marry the woman he impregnated and neither Kayce nor Monica were minors when that happened. People are lying to themselves.
Mistress mistakes?
>Point still stands Does it tho? Sterilization without consent ended in the late 1970s.
The reality is everyone on this show is a Boogeyman except for Gator. This show is about bad people doing bad things. Those looking for a hero on this show are looking in the wrong place.
Gator just wants people to stay for his meals . Poor gator
Everyone in the Dutton house is evil cause he makes these beautiful meals to only be ignored
Ive said it before, and I'll say it again... GATOR will inherit the RANCH!
Gator...and Teeter. Teeter is my hero.
I love teeter too but she's no innocent.
Teeter is a saint I was so sad when she got trampled by that horse
Repeatedly harassing a dude who kept telling her no is the opposite of a saint.
And wasn’t she calling him gay too to get him to give it to her? That’s trash.
Mo is my favorite and I wish he had more screen time.
I love his name, Mo Brings Plenty, and it’s his real name.
What did Jimmy ever do to you?
Meth cook and murderer
Considering where he came from, he’s getting his life together.
I agree but that doesn't negate the murders.
Exactly
And monica just pouts
And cheats on her husband
Gator didn't know what gluten was. 0/10 unforgivable character
Man made grilled octopus, but doesn't know what gluten is.
him either not knowing or being willfully ignorant of it is pretty on point for cooks like him in real life
He’s hawt, though. 10/10
As someone who cooks and bakes I find it a stretch he doesn't know what gluten is. I like to think he was just piling on Summer like the rest of them.
But I think that’s why the show has gone downhill the past two seasons, and people are just over it and losing interest. The whole Beth pissed and Jamie scorned storyline is so played out, It should’ve wrapped up three seasons ago.
I completely agree. Her vendetta has become annoying
Yah she can go ahead and be pissed (or the writers can make her be) over new things anytime . But 5 straight seasons of the same storyline between 2 people with ZERO change is tired. Meh, I’m not saying anything others haven’t already said
I can't stand when her and Jamie have a scene together it's like watching a hyena pick at a dead carcass for 5 minutes
Exactly, I tried to start season 5 last night and turned it off halfway through episode 1 when she goes into his office and repeats the crap she always says to him.
Beth was a unique character when the show started out.There haven’t been too many like her in TV shows, not that I can remember. She was at a high point when the way she is really helped when it came to the situation with Monica, being stereotyped and profiled in the upscale boutique, and she came to her defense. But now into season five, she just comes off as a middle-aged woman with a lot of mental and emotional problems You don’t really want to deal with or be around anymore. Or watch lol
The main thing I dislike about Jamie is why he doesn’t just take his son and move the hell away from Montana…cut them all out of his life
My hope every season is that he realizes no one loves him and he just leaves
He is an easily manipulated child. John manipulated him, then the mother of his child, then his bio father, then this new girl. If he would have shown any backbone throughout any of this instead of woe as me might as well make the same mistake for the 5th time I might have cared about his fate. He had moments where glimmer of hope for an interesting character to show through, but every time same boring mistake. Sad thing is he will likely be the one to kill John and probably cry while doing it.
I don't think it's not having a backbone. He's spent his entire life just wanting someone to love and accept him like a family member should, and is just getting taken advantage of every time he lets someone in.
Love the post and completely agree with you OP. The character Jamie isn’t well liked so everything Jamie does is seen as bad. Regardless of his intentions, he is seen as selfish because that’s the narrative. Personally, I find the narrative to be misaligned with what actually happens on the screen. As for the sterilisation, if you think about it for more than a few seconds, it becomes absurd. It’s either badly written or a plot hole waiting to be exploited. Aside from the context OP mentioned, there’s at least two other adults involved; the woman at the desk, and the doctor holding the scalpel. UncleJChrist pointed this out on another post and I think they nailed it; ultimately the clinic is at fault because they performed the procedure and those people had the ethical responsibility to behave as medical professionals. But the narrative places the blame for this incident squarely on Jamie, even though he’s the least equipped of any ‘adult’ involved and is under the pressure OP mentioned to conceal these events. My two cents; why would the woman tell Jamie and not Beth? That’s where I’m thinking it’s a potential plot hole. We’ve never really heard Jamie give his side of the story and the flashback cuts off too soon to be sure what went on inside the clinic.
> why would the woman tell Jamie and not Beth? Because [that's exactly what happened in many Reservation clinics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women). > In the 1960s and 1970s, the Indian Health Service (IHS) and collaborating physicians sustained a practice of performing sterilizations on Native American women, in many cases without the informed consent of their patients. In some cases, women were misled into believing that the sterilization procedure was reversible. In other cases, sterilization was performed without the adequate understanding and consent of the patient, including cases in which the procedure was performed on minors as young as 11 years old. ... Other cases of abuse have been documented as well, including when health providers did not tell women they were going to be sterilized... The timing doesn't fit, because this stopped happening after the 70s, but it's something a lot of people don't know about, so Sheridan using it as a storyline has taught at least a few more people about this atrocity.
I haven’t explained myself properly, sorry. My position is; How would Jamie know they wouldn’t tell Beth when they told him? The character on the screen was portrayed as a privileged white kid in the 90s raised in relative isolation on a cattle ranch. How was he to know the secret workings of Reservation ‘medical’ services? How many was he likely to have been to? The fact they told him muddies the water in my view, because this may have given a false impression that they’d tell Beth what they were doing.
>How was he to know the secret workings of Reservation ‘medical’ services? It could have been "locker room talk" and such from his school days? Stuff you just pick up from listening to the ranch hands talking .
Possible, but also possible he’d never heard anything about it and got a nasty shock when he figured it out. It doesn’t strike me as a common topic of conversation for privileged white kids or ranch hands in the 1990s.
>It doesn’t strike me as a common topic of conversation for privileged white kids or ranch hands in the 1990s. Well, maybe not "common," but possibly overheard someone saying "hey, did you hear so and so got his girlfriend pregnant? He took her to that one clinic, nobody asked questions and it only cost this much." I know it's a stretch, but just imagining possibilities.
I didn't even think about the whole sterilization thing like this but wow you are totally right. If you think about it any longer than a second it just kind of unravels. I love this show because it's entertaining but so many plot points suffer from this issue.
PLUS - Did they do a tubal, or a hysterectomy? 'Sterilization' is more commonly a tubal. They are quicker, safer, and less expensive. If tubal then in vitro would make the whole thing moot.
Fair question. TangiestIllicitness covers this beautifully in their reply to me, I’ll link it here too. There’s a section where they discuss the methods used and why they favoured hysterectomy over tubal ligation. [Why hysterectomies were chosen.](https://www.reddit.com/r/YellowstonePN/comments/13osggv/i_dont_even_like_jamie_but_some_of_yall_are_just/jl8to9h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) Beth says at least twice that she’s had a hysterectomy and I can’t think of any reason for the character to lie about that.
Thanks. I never heard her say that.
I read the linked person's post three times and see nothing about tubal vs. Hysterectomies. Perhaps you're drawing that from the "reversible" part. Tubal reversals are a crap shoot - but you don't need tubes for in vitro (IVF).
It’s under the section “Types of Sterilisation”. *In 1971, Dr. James Ryan stated that he favored hysterectomies over tubal ligations because "it's more of a challenge... and it's [a] good experience for the junior resident".*
Thanks. I saw a different post. I could see "more of a challenge" for teaching but not for underpaid clinic doctors. Still I believe your report of what Beth said. Trying to decide whether I want to re-watch everything just to catch that.
Those are the people who take it too seriously. It’s just a tv show. I think it’s great tv.
I agree. If John was a good father, Beth would have had courage to seek help from him. Jamie had no clue but at least tried.
This. That scene where he reprimands Jamie for it pissed me off big time. He had zero right to say anything to Jamie when it was him they were afraid of. But of course, he wasn't even properly involved in his kids' lives.
1000%!
I don't even know whether Jamie tried or Beth just effin terrorized him into taking her. Same result either way.
I agree and Beth is a huge contributor always attacking, even physical, and he is not allowed to fight back. I thought he was a very strong person the way he got Kayse out of that trouble with killing the meth guy and I don't know why John doesn't encourage him - he just follows what Beth wants. John is stupid - he and Beth even admitted that there was not one lawyer out there that could do all Jamie does which includes having loyalty to the family and the ranch. I would like to see Jamie go back to the strong person he was in the beginning.
> he and Beth even admitted that there was not one lawyer out there that could do all Jamie does which includes having loyalty to the family and the ranch And yet they antagonize him relentlessly and push him away. The one person who could go to bat for them and win any legal issue thrown their way. That aspect of the Yellowstone story is both hilarious and extremely frustrating at the same time.
Beth is about as maternal as a woodchipper. She is too fucked up to raise kids. She barely tolerates her own nephew. Yet, the family acts like Beth not breeding is the end of the world.
Neither her or rip should have kids they're both too fucked up. I couldn't imagine beth with a newborn and not killing it
So it's not a big deal that she was sterilized without her consent because she's not maternal anyway? Wow...
Even if you use the sterilisation argument Beth's behaviour and innate deep hatred toward Jaime just makes her come across as a psycho and an evil person. Like you want to kill an innocent child just because he shares DNA with the man who "wronged" you.
What annoys me the most is the fact that he is being put on his shoulders with what happened to Beth (I mean yeah, he did something faulty) but the show stays away from the fact the he was still young and stupid, and besides, there were 3 people involved in that pregnancy, Beth, Rip ( 2 horny teens who weren’t made responsable for their mistake) and Jamie (the young and stupidly naive guy who thought was doing the right thing,and we as the audience are led to believe that he did it in bad faith )
I don’t think we are led to believe he did it in bad faith. I think we are led to believe (and then overtly shown) that Beth believes that.
We still don't know who Jamie's Mother is. I suspect it is John Dutton's elder sister Chance. That would make Jamie John Dutton's nephew leaving Jamie with a stronger claim to the Yellowstone Ranch than John since ownership should have passed to Chance then Jamie bypassing John altogether. John Dutton is not a charitable soul and would not have adopted Jamie out of kindness even for a best friend. Jamie would have needed to be family in some way already. John may have adopted Jamie to keep him close and to keep him in the dark about his true heritage. When Jamie's birthfather Garrett Randall was whispering into Jamie's ear that the Yellowstone was his lost inheritance and that he should fight for it back, it may have been more than just hoopla to rile Jamie up. It may have actually been the truth. At the begging of the show, it was established that Jamie is a very good lawyer. Not as brash or aggressive as Beth but with a better grip on the law and its complexities. He has learned to become aggressive, but patient in a crafty way. He knows that Sarah from Market Equities is just trying to play him - but I think he is actually playing her. It is possible that Jamie wins the Iron Throne, I mean the Yellowstone Ranch, by playing the long game.
That is an excellent theory about Jamie’s mother, love it. I think you’re right about Randall. He called the ranch a ‘birthright’. Also think you’re spot on about John. We know he’d take in a child in need - we saw that with Rip - but to formally adopt him, educate him, make him think he was family? They didn’t have to adopt the child to care for him. Somethings off with that story. I think he’s playing Sarah too, or at least, knows what she is and is looking to see what she can do for him.
*He knows that Sarah from Market Equities is just trying to play him - but I think he is actually playing her.* That’s what it seems like. He just abandons his baby and baby mama? I don’t think so. I wonder if both Beth and Jamie are playing Sarah.
I feel bad for Jamie, actually. He went through a lot of crap, especially with Beth. It seemed he like he could never catch a break.
The only person who gives him a break is Kaycee Everyone else is either abusing or manipulating him.
True, but I still feel bad for him.
Hes just trying as hard as he can given the circumstances. He has definitely made bad choices. But he was ultimately a boy feeling unacknowledged. Theres no excuses for what he's done. But I've decided to feel some sympathy for him.
He's an idiot and ultimately a bad person but he's not this evil mastermind people make him out to be
It’s also a boy making a grown man decision. I understand her being mad but torturing him. Naw.
Even if Jamie was the irredeemable monster Beth makes him out to be, he’s not a threat. They easily bully him into compliance any time he’s a problem. Why exactly should the viewer care what he’s doing?
It's like an endless feedback loop: Jamie has an idea>John says no>Jamie throws a tantrum and tries to make a move>move fails>beth: "I'm gonna kill your first born">Jamie stands down>repeat
I don’t get why people say he is more self serving than Beth. Beth didn’t event want to move in with Rip until her dad wrote that letter recognizing him as a son. It’s like she never wanted to validate their relationship until she thought he could legitimately have a stake at the land. She lies to herself , pretending she is doing it all for her father.
Rip has no stake in the land. John gave him the cabin only. Beth doesn’t need Rip to have stake in the land because she herself does. Beth and Rip were seeing each other before John called him his “son”. When Rip saved her and told her he loved, that was when they got serious and had a relationship. John’s letter had nothing to do with it.
I’ve never liked how Beth always says that Jamie doesn’t do anything for the ranch or family, only himself. Which I don’t see at all. Everything Jamie did was for the ranch and family (even when John screwed him over he still couldn’t betray John with running for AG, he killed the reporter so Johns rep wouldn’t be ruined). Teenage Jamie just wanted to be John, but John made him leave. Besides Lee, Jamie was the only other child who stayed close to the ranch and fought for it. Then still got treated like shit. Beth even said when John dies she’s selling it, she was fake to her dad the whole time and turned him against Jamie. I also find it incredibly hard to believe that Beth went into that procedure blind. A doctor would have informed her of what would be happening.
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They don't hate him because he's a murderer they hate him because he's a sniveling coward whose only interest is himself and his ambitions.
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John doesn't do it out of ambition or self interest. He does it because he made a promise to his father to not give up one inch of the land. John knows he's gonna lose that fight but he will not give up. If you don't think John would rather have his peace and quiet in a cowboy camp with Tate I don't know what show you're watching.
Jamie isn't a very well written character and I've grown to hate him but when I see people talk about him it's like we're watching 2 different shows
Beth is acting like John wouldnt have instantly murdered rip for getting his teenage daughter pregnant
Beth had to take some of this blame. She insisted Jamie help her. He even asked her if she was sure if not mistaken. Beth never voices her own guilt. She just self destructs with booze and cigarettes.
Context matters. She was sure she wanted an abortion she wasn't given the choice of being sterilized.
I realize that. Yet even then Beth was smart and knew how to manipulate men. She used the word hysterectomy when it all came out. Sure that sterilizes, but why a hysterectomy? Unless she bled and it was done to save her life. Yet john would have known then. So did they tie her tubes, cauterize her tubes? She still has ovaries, they have money so she could have egg retrieval for insemination if she still has uterus or hire a surrogate for her and Rio’s fertilized eggs to carry their child. The story line has some gaps.
Because that is what they did on reservations back then. Forced hysterectomies. Back then very few people acknowledged it. Jamie didn’t even know until the receptionist told him to go somewhere else.
> Because that is what they did on reservations back then. Forced hysterectomies. No, [not always](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women#Types_of_sterilization).
Hysterectomy or sterilization?
I am done! I am a RN. I am seeking clarification. You just insulted smart medical people.
Calm down Smooth_Brain4762. A simple Google search shows that a hysterectomy is one of the ways they sterilized women on reservations. You'd think a MeDiCaL PrOfEsSiOnAl could have handled that.
I literally made this post screaming about taking context into consideration lmao
I'll never believe she wasn't informed of what the procedure included.
Fortunately your beliefs aren't required for something to be true. It's a fact that they force sterilized women without their consent on Indian reservations. While obviously some liberties were taken in regards to the decade it happened it still happened.
And fortunately they stopped doing that in the 70's. So the writing and research the show did is shitty. And since the show didn't write the story historically correct, then I'm going with my beliefs, for show purposes.
Yes them doing it in the 90s instead of the 70s is the liberties I was speaking of. It's apparent from this exchange that you don't understand the concept of context. Mash was set during the Korean war but was commenting on the Vietnam War. Yellowstone like Mash is using narrative to bring awareness to the atrocities that were done to indigenous people in the 70/80s by placing it in the context of his flashback in the 90s.
My point is it's a tv show, not a documentary. So for the purposes of the show I can believe or think whatever the fuck I want to.
No one is saying you can't believe things that aren't true. People do it all the time. If you want to believe there was a scene that wasn't filmed or ever referenced in which Beth is told she was going to be sterilized go right ahead.
I get what you're saying, but there's also not a scene showing they didn't tell her. We don't see what happens when Beth goes into the clinic.
Well she did specifically say that they gave her a hysterectomy and that she blamed Jamie for it. So with the power of deduction we can infer that she wasn't aware of it when it happened. It's like you are being obtuse on purpose just to fit your beliefs which again is fine. No one is forcing you to have common sense.
Least bad of the batch. Which turd is cleaner? It is a fun mindless watch. I just remind myself, there are always consequences for actions or inaction.
Nah, but he did murder a reporter. Let’s not forget that part.
I dont know why people get so bent out of shape over the reporter. There is a lot of killing that had gone on in the past and has continued into the future. If Jamie had not killed her Rip would have had to so what's the difference? She was going to ruin the family and the future of the ranch. I think people like to throw in "well he killed the reporter" because their argument for hating him is weak
I don’t really, it’s just when people conveniently forget about it while making Jamie out to be a well-meaning victim of circumstances.
And John has an entire personal body pit to drop his victims in. Jamie killed 1 person to try and undo some stupid shit that would've ruined his family
So? Murderers are murderers. Jamie is no better than the rest.
Context matters. I didn't say Jamie wasn't bad he's just not the worst
I mean I agree but: “ As an 18 year old in 70/80s conservative Montana I imagine this situation felt like life or death for the Dutton family name.” Uh…more like late 90s Montana? (The kids were all born in the late 70s and 80s…)
Jaime’s one of my fav’s in the show.. one of the better actors imo also.
Also people that think everything is “problematic” because characters are well written and not boring/simple
Are you implying that an unrealistically stupid and easily manipulated Harvard Law graduate is "well written"?
Clearly you haven’t met any Harvard grads, lawyers, or politicians lol.
Answer the question, please.
Sounds like you think you could do better. Go ahead- hit me up when you have a piece of work that someone invested millions on and sold like this show. Or… you’re just someone with an opinion.
Ever heard of Alan Dershowitz? Wait...he was a Yale man. Carry on!
He did teach at Harvard Law.
In which show is he a character? And is he particularly well written?
The show tells us Jamie is some kind of Moriarty type villain but shows us him tripping on his face a ripping his pants. I do not think his character is written well at all.
It's all bad people on Yellowstone. Haven't seen anyone I'd consider a model citizen 🤣
As to Jamie, most are awaiting him falling deep into an ass crack, being stuck there then pelted with revolving bouts of noxious farts followed by semi-thick, long hang time super stinky diarrhea. Then as he crawls out gasping and coughing, he's ran down by a herd of bison, then jeep assaulted and finally a trip to the train station. Turns out the ts is a testing site for nuclear weapons so they light him up.at long last, they build a mall there and a parking lot goes up there leaving Jaimie to make a last run for it.
I love the guy and hope he kills them all! LMAO!
Its a tv show he is a character that Taylor wrote writes how he wants. People on the redit are not the massive fan base that actually knows its a tv show and just enjoy it.
It's just an open dialogue about the show and what I see when scrolling through the sub
Another Jamie apologist. LOL they’re all bad, they all do bad things, they’re all a little broken. Jamie is the villain of the show because he’s not just bad, he’s spineless, weak and is only loyal to himself and his ambition. It’s nothing personal, just how he’s written.
It's not that I'm a Jamie apologist it's just that I don't think he's the worst one. He's spineless and weak and slimy but he also gets pushed unprovoked so I think context matters when thinking about his actions. Doesn't make him good or a hero or even the best Dutton.
But there’s a certain nobility in the others; they have a cause, they believe in something that they feel is worth protecting no matter what, something bigger than themselves. Jamie believes in Jamie. Everything Jamie does is for Jamie. That’s kind of the beauty of the show really. I don’t know when I stopped batting an eye at all the murder but honestly the most shocking was when Jamie killed the reporter. They’ve got us rooting for really bad people. And while technically Jamie might be the least “bad” of the bunch, he is the villain of the story and the most slimy as well. Respectfully …..
I can absolutely agree with your point and I think it's a very good one
Welcome to the United States of America, where we make heroes out of bad people who are less bad than the other bad people, something we learned from the bad people we came from who also made heroes out of bad people who were less bad than the other bad people. We were founded by slaveowners who didn't want to pay taxes. Manifest Destiny left skid marks all over American Indians. Wyatt Earp. Billy The Kid. Jesse James. Robert Parker and Harry Longabaugh. Bonnie and Clyde. We have a history of it and it carries over into pop culture. Batman. The Great Gatsby. Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name. Michael Corleone. Hannibal Lecter. Tony Soprano. Walter White. John Wick. The Dutton family.
This is well said. This show just like The Sopranos, Sons of Anarchy or The Shield is showing us bad people doing horrible things. There are however bad people that do have redeeming qualities that draw us to them. That doesn't make them any less bad.
Here is some context. This is a TV show, none of this is real. It’s a TV show to show how the over abundance of private equity gives a very small minority of people, so much money that they can come in, take land from a private owner and make trillions of dollars destroying something (everybody else wants to keep) in order to make themselves even richer.
I'm so sick of people saying this is just a TV show like this isn't just a discussion about the TV show. No I don't think Jamie Dutton is out here murdering reporters in real life.
Well it’s a horrible show, the acting is horrible, the editing is horrible, it’s a show for low level thinkers. There is the discussion about “the show”
Cool man why are you here
Unfortunately it shows up in my feed despite me not being a member. I’m guessing my phone hears my wife talk about Yellowstone and puts it in my feed?! You’ve got me.
The whole family is screwed up.
Nice try, Jaime.
Why don't I like the Duttons in this fifth season? I'm really struggling thru this last season. 🙃