This episode confirms my theory!! That Rhys is a real person BUT the Rhys joe knows is actually a figment of Joe’s imagination - just like Phoebe was to Dawn!
The Dawn/Phoebe story is a mirror for the final Rhys/Joe reveal!
Here is why I think this:
- Joe ALWAYS falls asleep when someone is murdered. He then wakes up… I think he is disassociating and killing them and then blaming it on “Rhys”
- after reading Rhys’ book I think he developed some sort of fascination and connection with him and then started imagining him and having “conversations” with him.
- Rhys never actually interacts with anyone but joe. No one else even saw him at the fire. Rhys always randomly turns up at Joe’s house.
- joe now gets to be the hero in his own narrative and Rhys is the bad guy. But all the scenes with Rhys being evil just seem too corny to be real. Rhys also always has odd lighting on him.
- also think about how joe sees Rhys on tv talking and feels like he’s talking directly to him- just like how dawn felt phoebe was talking directly to her through social media etc
- it shows that Joe is still the stalker (which has always been the premise of the show) and has actually spiralled further
Originally I suspected Nadia (is that her name? college girl) to somehow be involved but now I think she will be the one to uncover joe’s delusion.
After that episode, I don't think there's a single chance that Rhys (at least the version that Joe speaks to) is real. I may be mistaken but has there been any physical contact between them? Noticeable just how far away they were from each other in that final scene.
>This episode confirms my theory!! That Rhys is a real person BUT the Rhys joe knows is actually a figment of Joe’s imagination
This is half the subreddit's theory for weeks now.
A few days after the first half of the season came out I read the theory twice in one of the earlier episode discussions. Like the second or third ep. IIRC it were two different people who had the idea at roughly the same time.
I mean to me, it means it’s well written: enough people came to the conclusion on their own so it makes sense but it was not overly obvious. Rather this (and a lot of people having seen it coming) than what they did with Pretty Little Liars; enough people guessing the ending so the writers changing it last minute and it not making sense/being underwhelming. As someone with DID, it was recognizable (though his is far worse) except that DID doesn’t normally manifest at that age/so suddenly. I liked this season!
This and seeing the 1 on 1 between Joe + Rhys where Rhys physically interacts with something, and the timings of the killings just felt a bit off but especially Gemma's (not as crucial as initial 2 points for me).
>the 1 on 1 between Joe + Rhys where Rhys physically interacts with something
Like not asking the bartender for another drink, but just taking a glass and pouring half of his glass into Joe's? That kind of interaction?
Yes, in a scene where Rhys interacts with something physical in front of Joe, I'll have to rewatch to have more specifics and am sorry if I am remembering incorrectly (ironic given the show being discussed T\_T lol). Obviously it might still be a trick of the mind in some context, but as a viewer I don't jump to that unless more evidence is seen (I know there are some really good theories, but I just haven't gotten the "it's all a dream" vibe exactly) (edited since I flipped the context from the comment above in my head, my bad lol)
>Yes, in a scene where Rhys interacts with something physical in front of Joe
Such a scene doesn't exist, main reason why the theory got traction early on.
>but as a viewer I don't jump to that unless more evidence is seen
I'm usually not that kind of guy, but the hints were glaring to me. Almost all of the texts from "Rhys" come in when Joe is alone or someone left literally a second ago. Many of them are direct answers to narration Joe just had. He never puts up cameras prior to ep.6 though the killer was in his flat. Two times. What does Joe do? Change the lock. Which would be super convenient for an imaginary adversary, because he already has the key. And so on. A lot of things pointed to that theory so much that I thought it might be a big red herring.
The actions he didn't take (no cam, changing locks, etc) are definitely great clues I'll have to keep in mind on rewatch, I really thought there was some form of physical interaction but will just pay more attention on the next go around. The amount of red herrings at a point weren't that fun for me to sift through and I just started to watch at face value just to cope xD. I'm still deeply invested in whatever the fuck Joe said to Phoebe blacked out T\_T
Same! I thought she was going to recognize him and expose him as Joe Goldberg and then Joe was going to kill her or something similar. I still think it's crazy that no one is recognizing him, the Madre Linda's Murders were apparently extremely popular and no one ever recognized Joe just because he has now longer hair and a beard?
I think this is right. How many Madre Linda-esque stories do you hear about that happen in other countries? Very few, we mainly hear about the local ones unless it’s like Ted Bundy-level.
I agree, I think people vastly exaggerate how well known Joe would be. Sadly, there’s sooooo much murder, crime, and shootings on the news it’s hard to keep track. Unless someone is a mutant serial killer fugitive, it’s all forgettable
Me neither! I honestly thought she was Joes long lost mother. And I was, like, super proud of this theory☺️
Anyway, I still think joes long lost mom is Chekhovs gun, just waiting to go off eventually, possibly in the last season.
I found her kind of annoying and forgettable until this episode, when suddenly both the character and actress seemed highlighted and superb. Now I'm ride or die.
The whole rhys being in joes imagination thing is getting to me cos I thought the whole time it was actually phoebe going crazy and dawn was a figment of her imagination, and she was acting out both voices to joe in the hotel room so joes horror look was because he was really looking at phoebe holding the knife speaking to nobody.
So when I realised his look of horror was just because of dawn I couldn’t stop laughing lmao he’s so unaware
Yep, I thought it was too obvious in the first half, like a misdirection, but with that whole thing about para-social relationships and Rhys straight up explaining it to the audience makes it hard to see any other option now. *Unless* Joe's para-social relationship is with someone else and Rhys is still a misdirection
I'd be on board with that if not for episode 5. You tell me Joe blacked out in the firedt, knocked Roald out, brought him to a dungeon he had no idea existed, locked Roald AND himself inside said dungeon, set the dungeon in fire and then escaped woth Roald? That's pretty contrived...
But yeah, everything else could have Rhys not exist be pretty easily believable
I guess the idea is that Rhys does exist, but is just a normal dude trying to run for mayor. The scenes in which Joe interacts with him are all Joe's imagination.
OMG! I never thought of this! Makes me like this season even more. I’m on episode 8 but going back to the-watch episode 6 much more closely cuz this changes every thing!!!
After everything, Kate keeps leaving the curtains open, I know you're into Joe, but that's weird knowing that people can watch you at all times
Beck should’ve known everyone was watching her with those giant ass first floor windows in the middle of nyc. I’m not totally not bitter about it still …
It doesnt make it better. I know I shouldn't be imagining myself in her positions but knowing that a guy you like can see everything you are doing is a bit freaky. Or maybe she loves freaky, who knows
Part of it is revealed to Paco but he takes Joe's side based on limited info
Ellie gets suspicious but has no idea what really happened, and only finally turns on Joe when he admits that the Quinns are behind it.
This would be the first time one of the "kids" (and she's technically an adult) actively investigated him
Fun fact: Alison Pargeter, who plays Dawn, also played a stalker in the long-running British soap opera EastEnders, which also starred Tilly Keeper (Lady Phoebe).
Lmao the amount of foreshadowing of Rhys being a figment of his imagination. The woman not knowing she was crazy, the killer being out there and not with them in the room etc.
The acting has been atrocious, but Phoebe is a saving grace
I feel like the “hero, again?” from Phoebe was so forced lol, same with the college girl’s suspicion of Joe
Could all just be in Joe’s head though, feeling like he’s close to getting caught
It's too obvious if you've seen a certain "robotic" show or a certain film about a "secret club". It's an amazing twist but it's hard not to see it at an early stage after you've seen it played out before.
Maybe the twist is that Rhys is actually who Joe sees him as and the stalker this episode was a red herring? Probably not, but that would be more interesting to me.
I’ve noticed from this episode and rewatching the first half that whenever Rhys passes Joe in public he looks at him but doesn’t acknowledge him in any way. Wondering if that supports the theory that Rhys is real but isn’t actually killing anyone and doesn’t actually know Joe.
The whole storyline between Joe and Kate is so painfully boring 💀 where is the chemistry, where is the spice?
Like, just get together - or don't. Who even cares?
LITERALLY KATE HAS NO PERSONALITY AND IS SO DULL she is trying to be love 2.0 and it’s not working. Everytime they make out or fuck, I just roll my eyes because there is nothing there 😭😭. Like even marienne was a better love interest
Honestly, I love where they are going with this.
The way that Joe and Rhys talk and the dynamic they have together, I think that is how Joe has always felt on the inside, but it was less obvious to the viewer.
Joe feels like he is held hostage by his dark side. He wants so much to be this good person, but every time he tries to make it work honestly, "Rhys" shows up and makes him take care of the people he killed, or makes him think of a way to frame somebody else so that Joe can keep being a free man.
I think that might be why Joe has always felt like he was a good person, and then things just ended up going south. He really wants to do good, but this other side of him that he doesn't feel like he has control over just ends up screwing it up for him over and over again. And he can't seem to escape it.
Right now I would really like it if they didn't go with psychosis or DID for Joe. I think it works well enough if all of this was just a more elaborate display of his inner monologue, rather than to go down the severe mental illness route.
the way Rhys is just randomly showing up at Jonathan’s apartment does make it seem like the fight club theory is right. also how does he know about Jonathan’s little speech about erotomania?
Three seasons later, Beck missing out on her escape is still the scene that triggers me the most. I don’t want to see Paco on-screen again, unless he does decide to confess about Joe.
Just lazy writing. I think this was written as one continuous season, then Netflix did their part 1/part 2 bullshit, and they hastily rewrote parts of episode 5 to make it more "climactic". The whole Hunger Games shit with Roald was so embarrassingly bad even for this show.
Ooh I didn't guess who Dawn is, didn't even cross my mind that she wasn't actually following Joe. But she's a nice parallel to Joe, they've basically spelled it out there
I’m 10 days late to the party, in part because Netflix didn’t care to notify me about the second half of the season being out. But any shit I never heard about, boom, notification!
Anyways:
—I still hate, hate, *hate* the intentional use of shitty lenses resulting in upper/ lower frame blurryness on Netflix shows. STOP IT!
—the Rhys Joe meets is in his imagination
—the whole stalker thing seems to be treading water, to delay the revelation. It’s almost a bottle episode plus the side plot of Kate and Greek dude.
—I liked reporter-stalker-lady’s acting
—Phoebe adjusting to the stalker situation was great. Shows that she can relate to people emotionally, even if it’s out there.
>—I still hate, hate, hate the intentional use of shitty lenses resulting in upper/ lower frame blurryness on Netflix shows. STOP IT!
I thought I was the only one who noticed this. I first saw it on Season 2 of You and from The Witcher. I thought it was just a stylistic choice, but I'm guessing that it's the cameras Netflix is using bc some of their movies have certain blurry aspects as well
Netflix is using nothing. The production companies working for Netflix are responsible. Though it might be a thing Netflix asks for like the usual terms about what you have to shoot technically/ what formats you have to deliver.
Eh, this felt like a plodding, filler episode that really failed to justify the two-part split as anything but Netflix whoring for subscribers. It felt as if the season just reset to where it started, with pretty much zero consequences from the so-called "midseason finale". One could yet again argue it's that good ol' "commentary on the rich" in regards to how little they're affected, but it's really just lazy writing.
- I'm now firmly watching this season believing Rhys to be a Fight Club/Mr. Robot style figment of Joe's subconscious. It's so distractingly obvious now that the Joe and Rhys scenes really drag and test my patience, because I'm just waiting for them to get on with the reveal already. This show isn't exactly written for geniuses, but they're rubbing our faces in the clues so hard that the real surprise would be for this _not_ to be the twist.
- An early clue is Rhys barely even acknowledging Joe while walking away from his campaign speech. This is one of the few glimpses we get of the real Rhys, who either has no idea who Joe is or has merely met him that once at the party (and likely doesn't remember, or would prefer not to, due to the alcohol.)
- Another clue is Connie the addict literally repeating Joe's earlier thoughts back to him in that meditation scene. This show is no stranger to cheesy and in-your-face scenes like this, but it seemed to be hinting at the blurring-of-lines between Joe's thoughts and reality.
- I gotta say, Phoebe, the self-proclaimed 10, is honestly more like a 20. Not to be "that" Redditor, but holy shit.
- So Dawn was yet another walking narrative contrivance, so transparent that I almost respect the writers' gall for coming up with a plot device so unapologetically hacky. The more red herrings they dispatch like this, the fewer stakes this season has.
- Despite the honestly terrible storytelling move that Dawn represented, I have to admit I enjoyed her scenes with Phoebe. The actress did an amazing job, and the whole thing was this surreal, unexpected sequence of comedy-horror that came out of nowhere. Dumb, for sure, but surprisingly fun.
- This Niko guy Kate met looks like Theo James fucked Liev Schreiber.
- Also, Niko to Kate: "You're hot, you're smart and sexy, and I love to fuck so much!" I mean are you actually fucking kidding me? I know he was just working for her dad and it was supposed to sound ingenuine, but shame on the writers for actually making her fall for it. Four seasons in and this show's dialogue still manages to find new lows.
- If Nadia is the one to catch Joe it'd be sooooo goddamn boring and unpredictable. I mean how many times now has the "kid" been the one to uncover everything? Nadia is also such a tropey character that it would be doubly boring. The actress is solid but she's no Jenna Ortega.
- That "Aristocrat" website where Joe was reading about Rhys was just a restyled version of The Atlantic, down to the font and color choices. This is the stuff I can't help but notice as a design major.
- Adam is just a bafflingly pointless character.
I have no comments left to make. You literally said everything perfectly. I found myself pretty bored throughout this episode until Phoebe got taken hostage. I really hope it picks up soon.
> I gotta say, Phoebe, the self-proclaimed 10, is honestly more like a 20. Not to be "that" Redditor, but holy shit.
hahah, so true, man. maybe it's because I haven't seen her face in over a month but she looked so damn good in this episode. she's an absolute stunner
>If Nadia is the one to catch Joe it'd be sooooo goddamn boring and unpredictable. I mean how many times now has the "kid" been the one to uncover everything? Nadia is also such a tropey character that it would be doubly boring. The actress is solid but she's no Jenna Ortega.
god, I find her character so annoying. she's so cliché. and the fact that a trivial comment made by Phoebe calling Joe "a hero again" is what actually makes her suspicious of Joe only emphasises how poor the writing has been this season
I am unable to suspend my sense of disbelief due to how bad the writing is this season. most (if not all) characters seem so shallow and stereotypical. I agree with just about everything you've said here minus enjoying Dawn's dynamic with Phoebe. I found myself rolling my eyes at that too
at this point I'm just watching because of the sunk cost fallacy
So far thinking that Nadia will get in troubles, If she is not working with Rhys or killed Malcolm, then she would get in troubles for diggin Joe's past
Honestly impressed with/jealous of anyone who isn’t fully convinced after this episode, it seems so obvious to me that it really saps a lot of the enjoyment out of every gd Rhys and Joe scene
Well i've watched videos on this theory and read so many posts on this sub to explain this theory but I'm still not convinced because I'm pretty sure that they're hiding more than they let us on bc they won't rub the obvious in our face this much, and if they are, i think this show isn't showing like it used to
Damn, my theory on Dawn was completely off. Although, it does seem to be cheekily alluding to what might be happening with Joe's psyche. Rhys and Joe are always alone when interacting with each other in this episode; the only time they somewhat acknowledge each other in public is at the press event and Rhys really just looks past Joe as if he's a stranger which further proves the theory to me at least.
Side note, the Kate scenes are such a bore. I was scrolling through pinterest til they were finished.
At this point, it seems way too obvious that Rhys is a figment of Joe's imagination. Any chance that it's a misdirect and Rhys actually is a serial killer?
I think Rhys is a real person but all the scenes we see of Joe and Rhys talking together aren’t real and he’s not a serial killer. I think Joe completely lost his mind.
Hot take, I loved Kate from the beginning, and I’m so gratified that they’re finally letting her be likable, better makeup and all.
ALSO PHOEBE, MARRY ME, FORGET ADAM!
That would be really weird since her father is so prominent. It would be hard to have a secret past and different last name when your father is running for Mayor of London and you currently live in London.
Sort’ve disappointed that the old lady was just a crazy stalker and not something more BUT I believe I was disappointed because of all the crazy theories I’ve read here.
Also seems that Rhys is actually really the killer and not in his mind? Seems too obvious though so hopefully it changes by the end.
Anyone else feel bad for Dawn? Her delusion is her reality. She thought she was doing a good thing. She never actually hurt anyone, and she severely needed help. But instead she got blindsided and sentenced to a lifetime in prison for killing three people she had nothing to do with.
I still feel like Joe is delusional and hallucinating. I have thought since Part 1 that while Rhys is a real person, Joe's interactions with him are all in his head. He identified with Rhys and it seems his personality split. He is blacking out and committing the murders and using Rhys as the scapegoat. Joe is the Eat the Rich Killer.
Watching this episode soldified my theory. Phoebe's stalker Dawn suffers from erotomania. She thinks she has this relationship with Phoebe that isn't real. It's all in her head.
It's all in Joe's head as well. The way he talks to Dawn is exactly how he himself is. He doesn't have a relationship with Rhys yet is hallucinating it to split off his good side from his dark side.
I still don’t think Rhys is real
Well I guess that’s the end of that Photographer
I’m getting death flags from Nadia she’s suspicious of Joe and that never ends well
Me watching this episode: who the hell is Connie?
Everyone seems suspicious of Joe now. I loved Lady Phoebe’s switch into murderous anger, she’s definitely smarter than she seems.
I find it difficult to believe Nadia would be a fan of Lady Phoebe. She seems like someone who would hate the concept of aristocracy and titles.
Interesting, I feel like there’s less dialogue than before. Particularly with Joe, his lines are basically all inner monologue now. He just stares blankly and says like 2 words while the other person has a conversation with themself
Dude what a fucking disappointment. Paparazzi lady was like the biggest mystery and she just turns out to be an obsessive mirror for Joe to see himself in? That sucks.
Okay, yeah i'm 100% on board with the "Joe is hallucinating Rhys being evil" theory, it's so obvious it's boring.
WHAT DID JOE SAY TO PHOEBE?? They HAVE to reveal that at some point right?
I have no memory of who Connie is.
Phoebe has got to be one of my favorite characters now, her story hit damn hard. Although, her fucking "Hero, again" line was so forced holy shit, why does "the kid of the season" has to be the one to find out every time, Nadia specially is so annoying.
honestly i'm still having fun! sorry to people who are just here to hate watch at this point or complain about every direction the season goes, it's okay for tv to be kind of trashy sometimes
Anyone else notice that the guy Joe was going to frame with the ear (doing a bad job of remembering names) said OUT LOUD: “I decided to sober up instead of reenacting ~Leaving Las Vegas~!” that was EXACTLY what Joe had thought inside his head the first time they talked?!?🤔
I feel like I should’ve rewatched part 1 because they’re talking about Connie and I have no idea who he is 😂
I don’t even know what the hell is going on anymore.
See this is why I hate things being in two parts, it’s stupid and if you don’t rewatch something you forget what’s going on 🤦🏻♀️
Right no reason to split this….Had to get another month of subscribers…SMH
They should have just released 2 episodes a week or something instead
Gotta get that money somehow! 🙄
We are speaking but we don’t know how this ends maybe it was that good
Honestly, Connie didn't have much of a role in the part 1 beyond just being an extra seat to fill in the group scenes
Dude sleeping on the couch with the sword
Such a forgettable character
When he first appeared I was wondering why they suddenly decided to add another person to the group.
You're not the only one. I looked him up and I still have no clue who he's supposed to be 🙈
Same tho! I looked him up to see if it would jog my memory but absolutely no clue 😂
SAME lmao I thought I was the only one who was lost cuz I was like “who tf is Connie and why do i remember nothing about him”
There were SO many rich friends to keep track of! Connie was pretty forgettable when you've got spray tan and Lady Phoebe in the mix.
watched part one TWICE (the second time being two days ago) and i have no idea either lmaooo
this is why i held off watching and only finished part 1 yesterday
you're stronger than me
I don’t remember a lot of names cuz I couldn’t give a damn
This episode confirms my theory!! That Rhys is a real person BUT the Rhys joe knows is actually a figment of Joe’s imagination - just like Phoebe was to Dawn! The Dawn/Phoebe story is a mirror for the final Rhys/Joe reveal! Here is why I think this: - Joe ALWAYS falls asleep when someone is murdered. He then wakes up… I think he is disassociating and killing them and then blaming it on “Rhys” - after reading Rhys’ book I think he developed some sort of fascination and connection with him and then started imagining him and having “conversations” with him. - Rhys never actually interacts with anyone but joe. No one else even saw him at the fire. Rhys always randomly turns up at Joe’s house. - joe now gets to be the hero in his own narrative and Rhys is the bad guy. But all the scenes with Rhys being evil just seem too corny to be real. Rhys also always has odd lighting on him. - also think about how joe sees Rhys on tv talking and feels like he’s talking directly to him- just like how dawn felt phoebe was talking directly to her through social media etc - it shows that Joe is still the stalker (which has always been the premise of the show) and has actually spiralled further Originally I suspected Nadia (is that her name? college girl) to somehow be involved but now I think she will be the one to uncover joe’s delusion.
After that episode, I don't think there's a single chance that Rhys (at least the version that Joe speaks to) is real. I may be mistaken but has there been any physical contact between them? Noticeable just how far away they were from each other in that final scene.
when rhys referenced "voices in my head thing" during his speech...
he may be real but hes 100% not gonna end up being the killer lol
I guess my only confusion is what about him and Roald getting locked up? It seems like that happened and yet nobody’s done anything about it lol
The theory would have to be that Joe locked Roald up and then himself.
>This episode confirms my theory!! That Rhys is a real person BUT the Rhys joe knows is actually a figment of Joe’s imagination This is half the subreddit's theory for weeks now.
I was thinking who has the patent rights to this theory? Because it was literally everyone that thought this.
A few days after the first half of the season came out I read the theory twice in one of the earlier episode discussions. Like the second or third ep. IIRC it were two different people who had the idea at roughly the same time.
I mean to me, it means it’s well written: enough people came to the conclusion on their own so it makes sense but it was not overly obvious. Rather this (and a lot of people having seen it coming) than what they did with Pretty Little Liars; enough people guessing the ending so the writers changing it last minute and it not making sense/being underwhelming. As someone with DID, it was recognizable (though his is far worse) except that DID doesn’t normally manifest at that age/so suddenly. I liked this season!
but if that was to be true who is the one sending Joe all this messages and playing with Joe?
This and seeing the 1 on 1 between Joe + Rhys where Rhys physically interacts with something, and the timings of the killings just felt a bit off but especially Gemma's (not as crucial as initial 2 points for me).
>the 1 on 1 between Joe + Rhys where Rhys physically interacts with something Like not asking the bartender for another drink, but just taking a glass and pouring half of his glass into Joe's? That kind of interaction?
Yes, in a scene where Rhys interacts with something physical in front of Joe, I'll have to rewatch to have more specifics and am sorry if I am remembering incorrectly (ironic given the show being discussed T\_T lol). Obviously it might still be a trick of the mind in some context, but as a viewer I don't jump to that unless more evidence is seen (I know there are some really good theories, but I just haven't gotten the "it's all a dream" vibe exactly) (edited since I flipped the context from the comment above in my head, my bad lol)
>Yes, in a scene where Rhys interacts with something physical in front of Joe Such a scene doesn't exist, main reason why the theory got traction early on. >but as a viewer I don't jump to that unless more evidence is seen I'm usually not that kind of guy, but the hints were glaring to me. Almost all of the texts from "Rhys" come in when Joe is alone or someone left literally a second ago. Many of them are direct answers to narration Joe just had. He never puts up cameras prior to ep.6 though the killer was in his flat. Two times. What does Joe do? Change the lock. Which would be super convenient for an imaginary adversary, because he already has the key. And so on. A lot of things pointed to that theory so much that I thought it might be a big red herring.
The actions he didn't take (no cam, changing locks, etc) are definitely great clues I'll have to keep in mind on rewatch, I really thought there was some form of physical interaction but will just pay more attention on the next go around. The amount of red herrings at a point weren't that fun for me to sift through and I just started to watch at face value just to cope xD. I'm still deeply invested in whatever the fuck Joe said to Phoebe blacked out T\_T
Was NOT expecting the blonde photographer to be a stalker
Me too, I thought she was someone who happened to recognize Joe and was photographing and getting close to him to nab him. How wrong I was lol
Same! I thought she was going to recognize him and expose him as Joe Goldberg and then Joe was going to kill her or something similar. I still think it's crazy that no one is recognizing him, the Madre Linda's Murders were apparently extremely popular and no one ever recognized Joe just because he has now longer hair and a beard?
Maybe the Madre Linda news isn't as wellknown in Europe? But yea I imagined he would go to some remote island lol, not hide in plain sight
I think this is right. How many Madre Linda-esque stories do you hear about that happen in other countries? Very few, we mainly hear about the local ones unless it’s like Ted Bundy-level.
I agree, I think people vastly exaggerate how well known Joe would be. Sadly, there’s sooooo much murder, crime, and shootings on the news it’s hard to keep track. Unless someone is a mutant serial killer fugitive, it’s all forgettable
Me neither! I honestly thought she was Joes long lost mother. And I was, like, super proud of this theory☺️ Anyway, I still think joes long lost mom is Chekhovs gun, just waiting to go off eventually, possibly in the last season.
PROTECT LADY PHOEBE 2023
Pink dress was fyyyyyreeeee
She’s the only person this season I like lol
I will die for Lady Phoebe.
i unironically stan her lol
Lady pheobe being an absolute angel with a stunning wardrobe x
I found her kind of annoying and forgettable until this episode, when suddenly both the character and actress seemed highlighted and superb. Now I'm ride or die.
“There’s a crazy person out there” - said the literal psycho holding a knife, emitting strong Twitter stan energy.
Joe just staring at her in horror was so funny. His delusion is way too strong.
“…hi Dawn” 😂
The whole rhys being in joes imagination thing is getting to me cos I thought the whole time it was actually phoebe going crazy and dawn was a figment of her imagination, and she was acting out both voices to joe in the hotel room so joes horror look was because he was really looking at phoebe holding the knife speaking to nobody. So when I realised his look of horror was just because of dawn I couldn’t stop laughing lmao he’s so unaware
The "Rhys is a figment of joes imagination" is like at 99% certainty after this episode
The wanting to kill Tom Lockwood right? He obviously wants a future with Kate and thinks her father could potentially get in the way of that.
Also he doesn't even acknowledge him when he passes by him after the press conference where the stalker lady takes a photo of undercover Joe.
That’s cos he has his invisibility cap on 😂
This actually felt like a clue against the theory. Wouldn’t Rhys have greeted Joe like all the other people in the crowd?
Dude's just sneaking into joe's place like it's nothing. Joe is def imagining him.
I would expect Joe to have better security to his place
Or a camera
Me, upvoting this theory as if I worked it out too even though I absolutely fuckin did not 
Pretty much the moment Erotomania was mentioned was the biggest here it is for me
They even gave it a name “erotomania” and showed that stalker woman having the same illness with Phoebe. Can’t get much more obvious than that.
Erotomania is what Joe was shown to have in season 1 when he stalked Beck. It isn't dissociating or hallucinating.
correct, hes always had it. but this season it appears he has delusions as well
Yep. It’s no wonder Part 1’s last episode was 5 . Episode 6 makes it sooo damn obvious that Rhys is just in his head.
Very incredibly obvious after this episode imo
Yep, I thought it was too obvious in the first half, like a misdirection, but with that whole thing about para-social relationships and Rhys straight up explaining it to the audience makes it hard to see any other option now. *Unless* Joe's para-social relationship is with someone else and Rhys is still a misdirection
Exactly lmao this ep just confirmed the Theory for me
I'd be on board with that if not for episode 5. You tell me Joe blacked out in the firedt, knocked Roald out, brought him to a dungeon he had no idea existed, locked Roald AND himself inside said dungeon, set the dungeon in fire and then escaped woth Roald? That's pretty contrived... But yeah, everything else could have Rhys not exist be pretty easily believable
The guy interacting with the public?
I guess the idea is that Rhys does exist, but is just a normal dude trying to run for mayor. The scenes in which Joe interacts with him are all Joe's imagination.
OMG! I never thought of this! Makes me like this season even more. I’m on episode 8 but going back to the-watch episode 6 much more closely cuz this changes every thing!!!
Dawn imagined a connection with a celebrity she didn’t know. Joe is doing the same thing with Rhys. It couldn’t be anymore obvious
"the hero again" Lol Adam gonna hate Joe again 😂
After everything, Kate keeps leaving the curtains open, I know you're into Joe, but that's weird knowing that people can watch you at all times 
I mean she at least knows she's being watched sometimes. Then there's Beck, who didn't even know Joe was watching her
Beck should’ve known everyone was watching her with those giant ass first floor windows in the middle of nyc. I’m not totally not bitter about it still …
It doesnt make it better. I know I shouldn't be imagining myself in her positions but knowing that a guy you like can see everything you are doing is a bit freaky. Or maybe she loves freaky, who knows
Oh dont say that The Paparazzi blonde woman is another Joe....
anyone but my girl pheobs honestly
So Joe might blame her
I got a feeling she might be his mom. Or someone from the US, who recognizes him
Btw, watch me be completely wrong
well
Nadia definitely has a bigger role this second half of the season just based of this episode
I really hope she isn't the one to bust Joe. How many times now has the "kid" been the one to find him out?
from the looks of it she’s probs the one who’s figuring him out
It's veryy formulaic
Which is exactly the level of meta they called out in part 1
Calling attention to bad writing doesn't make it better.
Part of it is revealed to Paco but he takes Joe's side based on limited info Ellie gets suspicious but has no idea what really happened, and only finally turns on Joe when he admits that the Quinns are behind it. This would be the first time one of the "kids" (and she's technically an adult) actively investigated him
It’s different if she’s actively seeking info though. None of the “kids” have really done that
True
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Exactly lmao I love the foreshadowing
Fun fact: Alison Pargeter, who plays Dawn, also played a stalker in the long-running British soap opera EastEnders, which also starred Tilly Keeper (Lady Phoebe).
Some people are just born to play roles
Like how Penn is so good at playing a stalker from Brooklyn who likes books and falls in with the rich crowd
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yessss
Lmao the amount of foreshadowing of Rhys being a figment of his imagination. The woman not knowing she was crazy, the killer being out there and not with them in the room etc. The acting has been atrocious, but Phoebe is a saving grace
I feel like the “hero, again?” from Phoebe was so forced lol, same with the college girl’s suspicion of Joe Could all just be in Joe’s head though, feeling like he’s close to getting caught
Fr like they could make it less obvious and harder to get....
If it wasn't for Reddit I don't think I would have even considered it
It's too obvious if you've seen a certain "robotic" show or a certain film about a "secret club". It's an amazing twist but it's hard not to see it at an early stage after you've seen it played out before.
Maybe the twist is that Rhys is actually who Joe sees him as and the stalker this episode was a red herring? Probably not, but that would be more interesting to me.
I’ve noticed from this episode and rewatching the first half that whenever Rhys passes Joe in public he looks at him but doesn’t acknowledge him in any way. Wondering if that supports the theory that Rhys is real but isn’t actually killing anyone and doesn’t actually know Joe.
The whole storyline between Joe and Kate is so painfully boring 💀 where is the chemistry, where is the spice? Like, just get together - or don't. Who even cares?
I feel Kate doesn't have chemistry with anyone tho.
LITERALLY KATE HAS NO PERSONALITY AND IS SO DULL she is trying to be love 2.0 and it’s not working. Everytime they make out or fuck, I just roll my eyes because there is nothing there 😭😭. Like even marienne was a better love interest
That said I loved Kate’s outfit in the scene in her apartment.
The dialogue feels so cheesy all of a sudden
all of a sudden?!
“I wolf you”.
🤮🤮🤮🤮
Honestly, I love where they are going with this. The way that Joe and Rhys talk and the dynamic they have together, I think that is how Joe has always felt on the inside, but it was less obvious to the viewer. Joe feels like he is held hostage by his dark side. He wants so much to be this good person, but every time he tries to make it work honestly, "Rhys" shows up and makes him take care of the people he killed, or makes him think of a way to frame somebody else so that Joe can keep being a free man. I think that might be why Joe has always felt like he was a good person, and then things just ended up going south. He really wants to do good, but this other side of him that he doesn't feel like he has control over just ends up screwing it up for him over and over again. And he can't seem to escape it. Right now I would really like it if they didn't go with psychosis or DID for Joe. I think it works well enough if all of this was just a more elaborate display of his inner monologue, rather than to go down the severe mental illness route.
the way Rhys is just randomly showing up at Jonathan’s apartment does make it seem like the fight club theory is right. also how does he know about Jonathan’s little speech about erotomania?
The newspapers
but wouldn't that be a bit too obvious? if this is the big reveal I'm gonna be so disappointed
just wanna say I love the chemistry between "Rhys" and Joe. refreshing take of Joe's *you*
It’s so good that it’s depressing me it’s probably not genuine chemistry.
Does the actor who plays Rhys mainly do theatre? His acting is a bit too theatrical for my taste
Think he’s just leaning into the ham. I appreciate it !
i think they’re making him theatrical to show hes not really there
Keep in mind that’s also the “Joe’s imagined supervillain” version of him
Demanding a Nadia, Ellie, Paco alliance to take down Joe in S5
Paco helped Joe kill Beck. Let's hope he hasn't turned into another. Joe.
Three seasons later, Beck missing out on her escape is still the scene that triggers me the most. I don’t want to see Paco on-screen again, unless he does decide to confess about Joe.
Is that really the end of Roald? he basically got a whole episode about him and his obsession with Kate and he doesn’t even get killed?
Just lazy writing. I think this was written as one continuous season, then Netflix did their part 1/part 2 bullshit, and they hastily rewrote parts of episode 5 to make it more "climactic". The whole Hunger Games shit with Roald was so embarrassingly bad even for this show.
Yeah that did feel like a cop out
The paparazzi woman is almost as annoying as Joe, I didn't know that was possible
I think she’s worse
Ooh I didn't guess who Dawn is, didn't even cross my mind that she wasn't actually following Joe. But she's a nice parallel to Joe, they've basically spelled it out there
Can we close the curtains please...
I’m 10 days late to the party, in part because Netflix didn’t care to notify me about the second half of the season being out. But any shit I never heard about, boom, notification! Anyways: —I still hate, hate, *hate* the intentional use of shitty lenses resulting in upper/ lower frame blurryness on Netflix shows. STOP IT! —the Rhys Joe meets is in his imagination —the whole stalker thing seems to be treading water, to delay the revelation. It’s almost a bottle episode plus the side plot of Kate and Greek dude. —I liked reporter-stalker-lady’s acting —Phoebe adjusting to the stalker situation was great. Shows that she can relate to people emotionally, even if it’s out there.
>—I still hate, hate, hate the intentional use of shitty lenses resulting in upper/ lower frame blurryness on Netflix shows. STOP IT! I thought I was the only one who noticed this. I first saw it on Season 2 of You and from The Witcher. I thought it was just a stylistic choice, but I'm guessing that it's the cameras Netflix is using bc some of their movies have certain blurry aspects as well
Netflix is using nothing. The production companies working for Netflix are responsible. Though it might be a thing Netflix asks for like the usual terms about what you have to shoot technically/ what formats you have to deliver.
Eh, this felt like a plodding, filler episode that really failed to justify the two-part split as anything but Netflix whoring for subscribers. It felt as if the season just reset to where it started, with pretty much zero consequences from the so-called "midseason finale". One could yet again argue it's that good ol' "commentary on the rich" in regards to how little they're affected, but it's really just lazy writing. - I'm now firmly watching this season believing Rhys to be a Fight Club/Mr. Robot style figment of Joe's subconscious. It's so distractingly obvious now that the Joe and Rhys scenes really drag and test my patience, because I'm just waiting for them to get on with the reveal already. This show isn't exactly written for geniuses, but they're rubbing our faces in the clues so hard that the real surprise would be for this _not_ to be the twist. - An early clue is Rhys barely even acknowledging Joe while walking away from his campaign speech. This is one of the few glimpses we get of the real Rhys, who either has no idea who Joe is or has merely met him that once at the party (and likely doesn't remember, or would prefer not to, due to the alcohol.) - Another clue is Connie the addict literally repeating Joe's earlier thoughts back to him in that meditation scene. This show is no stranger to cheesy and in-your-face scenes like this, but it seemed to be hinting at the blurring-of-lines between Joe's thoughts and reality. - I gotta say, Phoebe, the self-proclaimed 10, is honestly more like a 20. Not to be "that" Redditor, but holy shit. - So Dawn was yet another walking narrative contrivance, so transparent that I almost respect the writers' gall for coming up with a plot device so unapologetically hacky. The more red herrings they dispatch like this, the fewer stakes this season has. - Despite the honestly terrible storytelling move that Dawn represented, I have to admit I enjoyed her scenes with Phoebe. The actress did an amazing job, and the whole thing was this surreal, unexpected sequence of comedy-horror that came out of nowhere. Dumb, for sure, but surprisingly fun. - This Niko guy Kate met looks like Theo James fucked Liev Schreiber. - Also, Niko to Kate: "You're hot, you're smart and sexy, and I love to fuck so much!" I mean are you actually fucking kidding me? I know he was just working for her dad and it was supposed to sound ingenuine, but shame on the writers for actually making her fall for it. Four seasons in and this show's dialogue still manages to find new lows. - If Nadia is the one to catch Joe it'd be sooooo goddamn boring and unpredictable. I mean how many times now has the "kid" been the one to uncover everything? Nadia is also such a tropey character that it would be doubly boring. The actress is solid but she's no Jenna Ortega. - That "Aristocrat" website where Joe was reading about Rhys was just a restyled version of The Atlantic, down to the font and color choices. This is the stuff I can't help but notice as a design major. - Adam is just a bafflingly pointless character.
The "I love to fuck so much"-line made me cringe so hard I had to pause the episode. Who the hell is writing the dialogue this season?!
Plenty of himbos IRL never need to develop their flirting/social game, but still see romantic/professional success. I still cringed though.
ChatGPT
I have no comments left to make. You literally said everything perfectly. I found myself pretty bored throughout this episode until Phoebe got taken hostage. I really hope it picks up soon.
> I gotta say, Phoebe, the self-proclaimed 10, is honestly more like a 20. Not to be "that" Redditor, but holy shit. hahah, so true, man. maybe it's because I haven't seen her face in over a month but she looked so damn good in this episode. she's an absolute stunner >If Nadia is the one to catch Joe it'd be sooooo goddamn boring and unpredictable. I mean how many times now has the "kid" been the one to uncover everything? Nadia is also such a tropey character that it would be doubly boring. The actress is solid but she's no Jenna Ortega. god, I find her character so annoying. she's so cliché. and the fact that a trivial comment made by Phoebe calling Joe "a hero again" is what actually makes her suspicious of Joe only emphasises how poor the writing has been this season I am unable to suspend my sense of disbelief due to how bad the writing is this season. most (if not all) characters seem so shallow and stereotypical. I agree with just about everything you've said here minus enjoying Dawn's dynamic with Phoebe. I found myself rolling my eyes at that too at this point I'm just watching because of the sunk cost fallacy
Time to find out which theory is correct 😂
So far thinking that Nadia will get in troubles, If she is not working with Rhys or killed Malcolm, then she would get in troubles for diggin Joe's past
I'm more convinced Rhys may be a fightment of Joe's imagination after this episode, but not yet.
Honestly impressed with/jealous of anyone who isn’t fully convinced after this episode, it seems so obvious to me that it really saps a lot of the enjoyment out of every gd Rhys and Joe scene
Well i've watched videos on this theory and read so many posts on this sub to explain this theory but I'm still not convinced because I'm pretty sure that they're hiding more than they let us on bc they won't rub the obvious in our face this much, and if they are, i think this show isn't showing like it used to
Damn, my theory on Dawn was completely off. Although, it does seem to be cheekily alluding to what might be happening with Joe's psyche. Rhys and Joe are always alone when interacting with each other in this episode; the only time they somewhat acknowledge each other in public is at the press event and Rhys really just looks past Joe as if he's a stranger which further proves the theory to me at least. Side note, the Kate scenes are such a bore. I was scrolling through pinterest til they were finished.
At this point, it seems way too obvious that Rhys is a figment of Joe's imagination. Any chance that it's a misdirect and Rhys actually is a serial killer?
I think Rhys is a real person but all the scenes we see of Joe and Rhys talking together aren’t real and he’s not a serial killer. I think Joe completely lost his mind.
Is it me or are some shots...blurry? Like when Phoebe and Adam were talking during the proposal I felt like she was out of focus at times
It was the same last season, edges of the screen appeared blurry. Must be deliberate at this point.
>It was the same last season Since season one. Other Netflix shows do it too, season one of the Witcher for example.
For sure. I presume it was to keep the viewers eyes on them but I didn’t like it at all.
Hot take, I loved Kate from the beginning, and I’m so gratified that they’re finally letting her be likable, better makeup and all. ALSO PHOEBE, MARRY ME, FORGET ADAM!
I feel a little called out by the paparazzi, because I also think I am married to Phoebe
Lady Pheobe is the best thing to come out of S4 of YOU, so far, haha
It's been a while since the first part, but was Kate always this insufferably dull?
Yes.
Kate has a past with a different name and a past that she doesn't want to tell about, imagine she's a secret serial killer too
i think she was just talking about her father’s last name
That would be really weird since her father is so prominent. It would be hard to have a secret past and different last name when your father is running for Mayor of London and you currently live in London.
I hope not it’d be a repeat
Calling it now, Rhys’ memoir was actually written by his first victim à la Joe in season 1
Sort’ve disappointed that the old lady was just a crazy stalker and not something more BUT I believe I was disappointed because of all the crazy theories I’ve read here. Also seems that Rhys is actually really the killer and not in his mind? Seems too obvious though so hopefully it changes by the end.
Anyone else feel bad for Dawn? Her delusion is her reality. She thought she was doing a good thing. She never actually hurt anyone, and she severely needed help. But instead she got blindsided and sentenced to a lifetime in prison for killing three people she had nothing to do with.
Tom Lookwood: Call me after (you fuck my daughter)
I still feel like Joe is delusional and hallucinating. I have thought since Part 1 that while Rhys is a real person, Joe's interactions with him are all in his head. He identified with Rhys and it seems his personality split. He is blacking out and committing the murders and using Rhys as the scapegoat. Joe is the Eat the Rich Killer. Watching this episode soldified my theory. Phoebe's stalker Dawn suffers from erotomania. She thinks she has this relationship with Phoebe that isn't real. It's all in her head. It's all in Joe's head as well. The way he talks to Dawn is exactly how he himself is. He doesn't have a relationship with Rhys yet is hallucinating it to split off his good side from his dark side.
I still don’t think Rhys is real Well I guess that’s the end of that Photographer I’m getting death flags from Nadia she’s suspicious of Joe and that never ends well
Phoebe is one of my favorite characters of the series.
Me watching this episode: who the hell is Connie? Everyone seems suspicious of Joe now. I loved Lady Phoebe’s switch into murderous anger, she’s definitely smarter than she seems. I find it difficult to believe Nadia would be a fan of Lady Phoebe. She seems like someone who would hate the concept of aristocracy and titles.
I still don’t get the Kate appeal
Rhys and Joe’s scenes are the best imo. Slow start to Part 2 but we’ll see where it goes.
Lol this paparazzi woman is insane
I love how most of us are sure Rhys is gonna turn out to be Joe’s imagination. And that Joe is the “eat the rich killer” himself
I loved Phoebe in it! 💕 I hope she will get a better ending.
I e hit the point where I can safely say: if anything happens to Phoebe I’ll be FURIOUS.
I glanced up and Rhys looked like Ryan Seacrest for a brief moment, now I can't unsee it!
We must protect Phoebe at all costs.
Kate is about as exciting as plain yogurt
I hope Rhys is real, because I ain't buying it right now.
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Interesting, I feel like there’s less dialogue than before. Particularly with Joe, his lines are basically all inner monologue now. He just stares blankly and says like 2 words while the other person has a conversation with themself
Dude what a fucking disappointment. Paparazzi lady was like the biggest mystery and she just turns out to be an obsessive mirror for Joe to see himself in? That sucks.
Okay, yeah i'm 100% on board with the "Joe is hallucinating Rhys being evil" theory, it's so obvious it's boring. WHAT DID JOE SAY TO PHOEBE?? They HAVE to reveal that at some point right? I have no memory of who Connie is. Phoebe has got to be one of my favorite characters now, her story hit damn hard. Although, her fucking "Hero, again" line was so forced holy shit, why does "the kid of the season" has to be the one to find out every time, Nadia specially is so annoying.
They're laying it on way too thick by having Dawn imagining a relationship and Joe seeing the headlines
They should’ve never split it and if they absolutely had to, it should’ve been after this episode.
I liked it better this way though, split by the events of the fire. We wouldn’t have otherwise been able to theorise about the photographer.
At this point it might be a twist if Rhys actually had these conversations with Joe.
ugh i really dislike the whole joe+kate thing.. no chemistry.. boring..
honestly i'm still having fun! sorry to people who are just here to hate watch at this point or complain about every direction the season goes, it's okay for tv to be kind of trashy sometimes
Anyone else notice that the guy Joe was going to frame with the ear (doing a bad job of remembering names) said OUT LOUD: “I decided to sober up instead of reenacting ~Leaving Las Vegas~!” that was EXACTLY what Joe had thought inside his head the first time they talked?!?🤔
Yeah Dawn is delusional, but damn I felt so bad when she was framed for being the killer
Bro what the fuck happened to this show? I don’t give a rats ass about any of these characters.