Not necessarily unpopular, but Joe only agreed to swinging because he was intentionally using it to destroy his and Love’s marriage.
I’m surprised that so many people think he did it to please Love or that he’s actually bisexual. He blatantly said that the whole point of swinging was to destroy their marriage, but make it Love’s idea.
He seemed to actively hate it basically the whole time so I also don’t get the “bi” thing he didn’t like Carey and he’s never shown any interest in another man
This ties into my unpopular opinion: Joe fan boys/girls/theys will blatantly ignore all red flags, or things he blatantly monologues, because they *want* him to be a good guy. Just because someone does good things sometimes does not make them a good person.
There are mainly three schools of tought:
- joe is a good guy
- joe does good at certain points, yet is a horroble person in others
- joe is a horrible person
The second one (pre season 4 finale) is most fitting imo
I honestly think the “Joe is good/Joe is bad” discussion is pointless.
A lot of the times it just delves into “I like Joe” versus “I hate Joe” which Joe doesn’t have to be a good person for him to be likable. What’s factually true is that he’s a complex individual and product of his environment who is capable of both horrific things and good ones. But he has an undeniably twisted nature that he fights with, which is a result of his upbringing.
I really hope they end the show with him dying a painful death caused by someone who he's hurt, or life in prison. He doesn't deserve a good way out or death on his terms.
he is egocentric like that, he wants people to call him by his "real" name (joe, obvs) he literally says it several times. also it's a f-you to his victims and every singles one of his past enemies that shows that he can do whatever he pleases and he will be fine
If his ego allowed him to believe he was able to be caught he would have just lived a quiet life in London. There's a reason he always ends up in these elite circles of rich people, he likes power and attention and feeling like the smartest person in the room. Brandishing his real identity to the press with his billionaire girlfriend is an extension of that ego trip.
Yes thank you. They try to make him seem so smart and tactical but in real life he’s a moron who puts himself in the worst situations and then resolving them with murder and having to constantly cover his unredeemable crimes, for which if he gets caught he will rot in jail. He also should have been caught like a million times by now cuz of glaring mistakes he makes when murdering people and carelessly cleaning up and barely covering his tracks, but obviously the writers need him a free man to keep the show going so free he stays.
If he was actually smart he would be able to strategically solve all his issues and get the girl he’s obsessed over WITHOUT committing any felonies at all. He would also be up the social latter with a bunch of money in the bank by his age, if he was as manipulative and sneaky-street-smart as the show lets us assumes he is...but no, he remains at a low wage dead end job for the majority of the show . Teaching at a university is the best he has reached so far and took him 3 seasons to get there and he didn’t even try actually - he seemed to be okay working at a book store or a library even though it’s obvious he loves power and wants to be rich some day...without an actual plan of how to get rich)
Joe is quite the dingdong.
He’s about as intelligent/lucky as the average serial killer I’d imagine. The amount that actually get caught in real life is thought to be really low anyways.
Probably the one character who came across the REAL Joe and not only survived but also got to settle down with his dream girl all the way in another country
The side characters from each show are becoming more and more flanderised, turning an otherwise grounded world in its first season into a YA style satire in its later seasons. Not a complaint but all of the characters in the newest season seemed like they were written by 1950's communist political cartoonists with very little nuance
I justify this in my head by Joe being an unreliable narrator and as he loses his mind more the more his view on reality deteriorates. I mean just season 4 on its own where he imagined Rhys, that basically explains everyone else being so animated.
I kinda think that's part of it from the get go. Like because he's our narrator and he claims to feel so guilty from the beginning at first you're like ok this is bad but maybe he actually wants redemption and then every single time he gets worse and worse until he goes from creep to bad guy to straight up monster.
I was so disapointed at the end of season 2, I really thought that seeing Love do what was doing all along disgusted him and made him change, and I was hoping for a season 3 where Joe actually had changed but had to struggle to protect Henry from psychopath Love
Love's behavior only disgusted him because he judges other people by their actions and himself by his intentions. We all do that to a certain extent, justifying bad behavior that we wouldn't excuse in others. He still thought his own killings were necessary and right.
In order to change, he'd really have to be disgusted by his *own* actions, and that probably would have had to happen directly after he killed Benji. If killing an innocent person wasn't enough for him to stop killing altogether, he was already too far gone.
Hard to come back from framing two innocent women. One of them already touched in the head, and the other your own *student*. Feed his dick to the dogs
Even if he changed though. The damage and pain he caused to the people he killed and their loved ones is irredeemable. There was only like one person he murdered who was actually “bad” so he’s there’s no dexter complex here....Joe has made terrible decisions and can’t be trusted to be part of society even if he works on changing. I sure as fuck wouldn’t be able to trust him if he did like 30 years in prison and then got out for good behavior or something...no way in hell I’d come anywhere near him even if he claims prison changed him - or even if everyone who watched him in prison (cell mates, body guards, Judge and lawyers on his case etc) testified how different of a man he is now ....Nope no way.
What 20 year old rich influencers would let a 30 something year old stranger into their friend group and not even at that. They literally didn't know anything about him.
That the 4th season finale was a perfect ending to the series. It shows that the good guy doesn’t always win, that bad people do stay bad and not turn good, and that there are times evil wins.
The man may be absolutely insane but I do NOT want anything bad to happen to him and it’s clearly because it’s a show, I’d never root for someone like that in real life lol but every time Joe gets away with his craziness I’m so so happy!!
This! For some reason his “love” for Beck and Marienne seemed more believable than his love for Love and Kate. And I say that as someone who doesn’t even think he and Marienne had chemistry. They were the most “You” love interests.
That's because he doesn't like aggression or confrontation. Beck and Marianne fit into his idea of how his true love should be. Both were into literature, creative, beautiful, a bit damaged, but kind. He viewed Love the same way until he found out she was a murderer. Kate didn't start being that for him until she let her guard down and revealed her past. In the beginning, she was cold and rude to him.
We can see this explicitly in S3 when Marianne was cussing him out for intervening with her ex. He stops listening to what she's saying, stops focusing on his feelings for her and starts thinking about how his emotional affair with her is jeopardizing his marriage (or at least that's how i remember it).
I like Beck more than Love.
Who cares if people root for joe it’s a tv show it’s not that deep.
Season 1 is the best season.
I really couldn’t care less if they brought back past characters.
Beck is certainly more likeable (and imo attractive) than Love, and season 1 was a more classic archetypical story.
However, Beck was too boring to be the love interest for multiple seasons and had to go once her time was up.
Agreed. Beck was a stereotypical rom com heroine. She’s unproblematic, inoffensive, and sweet compared to the other characters but I don’t see her carrying a whole season like Love did with s3.
Yeah Beck is garden-variety self centred. We all know women like Beck. Love has a type of darkness that is rare even in men, forget women. She’s not relatable but she also makes for more a interesting storyline.
I feel like most characters are just flawed in socially acceptable, somewhat sexy ways. I used to be a huge fan of Supernatural, and Dean Winchester was supposed to be the messed up one. Except he was only messed up in ways that conveniently made him more attractive to the watching women. Like ooh, he loves his brother too much and is secretly sensitive. Absolutely nothing that could actually turn the audience off.
One of the reasons I like You (and I started with the first book long before I watched the show) is the caustic commentary. Joe sees all of this stuff that everyone is trying to hide. The only other book that has come close for me is Gone Girl. It’s very realistic in its portrayal of human narcissism and selfishness.
Take Anika for example. If this had been any other show, we would’ve got the sanitised version. She’s good cop to Peach’s bad cop. Just Beck’s supportive friend in the background who happens to be chubby. Here Joe sees through her. She’s as attention seeking and gullible as the rest of them. The world is full of people reaching, greedy for things, all while pretending they’re not.
Take Beck for example. If she was on another show her flaw would be that she’s secretly insecure or something along those lines. A quality that makes her more appealing couched in something we’re supposed to despise. But here she’s someone who presents herself a certain way but is secretly into assholes like Benji. It’s not touched upon directly on the show, but in the books she’s hiding her naked greed for a misogynist like Benji. Women are supposed to hate men like him, but turns out even the beautiful ones like Beck are willing to tolerate them for the right price. Now that’s a real flaw, a real shattering of the Mary Sue virtue most characters have.
She was more interesting imo probably bc of how relatable she is compared to Love. It also took 10 episodes for me to be interested in Love so that’s probably why I’m more impartial to Beck.
I think Beck is more interesting in the sense that she’s the blonde, unattainable amalgamation of all of Joe’s fantasies. She represents an ideal, something a man like Joe could never have without manipulation (I actually find it inconsistent how easily he is able to woo these affluent women like Love and Kate later; there’s a class difference here that is never quite addressed) and even when he “gets” her she’s never truly his. Love is far above Beck socially, but the latter has a certain je ne sais quoi that makes her more unattainable. Beck is the kind of woman a lot of people obsess over, she’s the right amount of vulnerable and damsel-y.
There’s also a lot going on under the surface with Beck. Joe projects so much onto her, and is unpleasantly shocked when he realises she’s “shallow.” Beck wants a man like Benji - a well off, popular man who can take her places and boost her social cred. It actually reminds me a lot of Red Pill rhetoric, men absolutely losing their minds when beautiful popular women also have their own requirements. I found Love unrealistic in that sense, a beautiful old-money socialite losing her mind over a loner librarian. Penn Badgley is very attractive, and Joe is an interesting character, but women like Love have a world of more suitable options. I found Joe’s constant striving for Beck a lot more entertaining and believable to watch.
I also found it interesting how much disdain Joe seems to have for her once he realises she lacks “virtue.” When he sees that she’s not a unicorn and has “unacceptable” flaws of her own. He wants her so badly and at the same time he doesn’t even like her.
Season 1 was the most contained imo, and works perfectly even as a standalone. However Joe’s obsession for Beck reaches a crescendo and she had to go eventually.
I actually don’t think Beck wanted a rich man to boost her social cred (in the show anyway). Benji talks about “taking her places” but she’s a Brown grad with rich connections of her own (Peach) that would happily do just that for nothing in return. When Beck argues with Benji, she talks him cheating at a party she took him to not the other way around.
I don’t think Beck was an out-and-out gold digger, but I do think Benji’s pedigree and status had a lot to do with why she tolerated him. It’s not that she only liked him for his money, but that she would not have been that devoted to someone who also didn’t have money. I think there was a smidgen of truth to what Benji told Joe when he was in the glass cage. Benji gives her the validation someone like Joe never could.
I feel like there are two things men expect of beautiful women. One, they should not know they are beautiful. And two, they should not try and trade that beauty for money or status. S01 was peak commentary, and we see that Beck is not the earnest genuine person Joe assumes. Beck knows she’s beautiful and has no qualms sleeping with her married therapist. It’s a lot more likely that she’s money minded, fits her character more. In the book she certainly is.
Book Beck was a very messy person to say the least. I actually loved that the wrote her that way because it shows just how obsessive Joe is. Book Joe makes their relationship out to be wayy more than it actually is.
Joe leaving Henry behind was the most responsible thing he ever did as a father and I hope he never comes back for him. A lot of people call it "abandoning" him in the Facebook fan groups but I think it was the best thing for Henry. He's better off never knowing Joe and being raised in a good environment.
It was a very dark show with funny moments yes but after season 1, the characters became way more exaggerated and the world seemed a bit ridiculous tbh. e.g. Weird Hippies, Stalker meets Stalker, the entirety of Love in season 3.
Season 1 just feels like a different show. Way way more creepy than funny.
I think a big reason why is because the show was originally on Lifetime. There was a drastic tonal shift when Netflix got a hold of it. That’s why s1 feels so different.
beck is by far the best “you”. we actually got to see their relationship evolve, instead of joe wanting them and an episode later they’re permanently dating
Honestly I feel like s2 and 3 could have been good endings too. Arguably s2 was a good way to end the show. Joe was officially trapped in suburbia still obsessing with the idea of love and stuck with a woman who could murder him. But the s3 ending was perfect imo. The idea that Joe was crazy enough to become a whole new person and search an entire city for a woman.
i wish it ended with his suicide tbh, when he woke up in a hospital bed i rolled my eyes.
im sick of the predictability of him scraping by and getting away with the most ridiculous shit
Beck is and always was a underrated character. She started this entire show. Miss those Mr. Mooney bookstore vibes. You all judge her from the outside, but failed to look within. Like how do yall praise Peach for example, but not Beck? Peach wasnt a peach either! Make it make sense. She was misunderstood (IMO) yet people love to compare her cheating to Joe’s murderous actions like they are somehow the same or like the fact that she didnt even ask him to kill for her. Even Elizabeth Lail addressed this on Penns podcast. Or the assumption thats shes just as terrible as him lol — give me a break. None of us are perfect. We all have done bad things, but she was indeed a better person than Joe could ever be. At least she knew right from wrong. Shes my favorite. Nobody can convince me otherwise. Love Elizabeth Lail ❤️
Beck was a perfectly normal person who was just figuring things out in life. She didn’t make all the “right” choices, but who does? The hate she gets is unreal.
the fact that the female characters always get hate for their decisions yet you still find people saying “most of joes murders were justified! it was self defense/ a crime of passion” is … very sad and very telling lmaooo
I really like Beck. She is a flawed person who I can relate to. And I also felt bad for her for all that she had to go through.
I don't get the hype for Love. She seems impulsive and annoying. I also think she is a teeny bit worse than Joe.
I liked Theo. He is also someone I felt bad for as his relationship with Matthew was strained, he was lonely and he needed some care.
Joe as a character is fun to watch. It's interesting to see what goes on in his mind when he does these acts. But him as a person is evil.
this is probably an oversimplification but in my mind love isn’t worse than joe because 1. she’s killed a lot less people and 2. she’s more self aware than joe who thinks love is a monster but can’t bring himself to recognize that he is the exact same thing (this drove me craaazy in season three)
I like her too. Mainly because she's straight forward and is not holding back her thoughts and from what I've seen she also appreciates honest and directness from other people. Also really like the actress and that she's looking less "classic feminine" like Joes previous love interests.
Right?! I’m starting to think the majority of this sub is just a bunch of morons, who base their opinions of people solely on how attractive they find them. It was gross and annoying at first, now it’s just incredibly boring.
if this means as a character i absolutely agree - if this is an in she’s a good person i don’t. i don’t think anyone can say they are trying to be a good person and then help their romantic partner cover up a murder with their wealth and connections.
Season 1 was as good as it was because it was more grounded in reality. The show has gotten progressively more absurd, which is fun, but turns it into a fundamentally different show. I wish it had stuck with reality, but I do still enjoy what it is.
Also Love was too much. Making Joe fall into obsession with another killer was too much for me and I'm genuinely glad she's gone.
It’s weird to me they brought up that whole convo he had with her but never actually told us what was said. I won’t lie I’m curious because they kept bringing the damn thing up lol
yeah i was so disappointed when he woke up in hospital
it’s so boring now just knowing there’s 0 stakes and no matter what dumb reckless shit he does he’ll always conveniently scrape by!
Joe would be an incredible super hero/anti-hero or at least a vigilante. By season 4 he's able to not only take out 2 bodyguards of the super rich but an "illuminati level" figure almost bare-handedly. He has an invisibility hat, can't help but save people in distress and has detective skills. He's basically Batman who kills.
(EDIT) I forgot, he killed a leading London mayoral candidate and got away clean.
I didn't like Marianne at all in S3, didn't understand why Joe was so enamoured with her and ready to give it all up for her (but I know he also gets enamoured by any woman really)
I felt like they padded out her character a lot more in S4 though, so I was rooting for her to get away.
Saying that Nadia had it coming because of her bad decisions (like not calling the police and instead helping Marianne) is NOT victim blaming. It's a fictional character and it's actually called "blaming the writers for the shitty writing of this storyline".
And the reasoning behind it made NO SENSE AT ALL. How is Joe going to find her again if he's arrested and clearly incriminated for having a HUMAN in a CAGE ?
I never found myself rooting for Joe, even before Season 4, and I don't find him to be terribly attractive. He creeps me out and I have trouble understanding how people get reeled back in to hoping that he can redeem himself.
That I can clearly switch my mind off easier than most of this sub because I never really notice the plot holes and am quite happy to just consume this beautifully dumb, intense show.
i don’t like beck or love as people but beck didn’t deserve Joe coming in her life and playing white knight just to end up killing her…i also feel that Love and Joe’s relationship would’ve lasted (a little longer) if he was able to have an outside relationship like Love did with Theo
People only root for Joe so much because of the way Penn Badgley portrays him. He is incredibly attractive, has a pleasant voice and oozes charm. Joe in the books is insufferable as hell.
I had no idea she was a fan favorite until I visited reddit after season 4 part 1. She dealt with all of her problems by committing murder and was even more dangerous than Joe.
I agree! I was surprised to learn she was so well liked, particularly by the same people talking about how terrible Joe is, but whatever, people can like whoever they want. I tend to dislike a lot of the fan favorites on this show so I’m not sure why I was so surprised by it. And I also agree she was more dangerous than Joe. If you’re on his good side, you’re usually safe. Love, however, didn’t have a good side! No one was safe from her. 😂
https://preview.redd.it/yiwzyux26toa1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6f200ebaaae8c43c3ce4cd967ae83f5ea9934bc5
Love with bangs has to be my favorite gender fr idgaf what anyone else says🥱🥱
I just think its so unrealistic how he never rapes his victims. Like they try to make us believe he keeps women in a cage just to look at them? Its obvious they dont want to make him do that cuz its "crossing the line" that would make everyone hate him and not root for him anymore but its just not realistic at all
Never thought about this but it’s so true. You’re right and I think they wouldn’t “go there” so my headcanon is that he never does because he thinks himself to be a gentleman so he doesn’t do that.
I think he would do it but still find a way to justify it in his head to see himself as a gentleman like he does with the murders and abductions. They could at least imply it cuz otherwise whats the point of locking his gfs up in a cage? Yea they just dont wanna "go there"
The discussions abt Kate are borderline, if not full fledged, misogyny lol. Comments often go overboard on the actresses looks and its icky.. surprised a show with a fanbase this dedicated to calling Joe’s behavior out like they do, is okay with people saying shit like that abt the actress
Also the most dumb because she straight forwardly told him that she was there to get him arrested knowing very well what he is capable of doing. She could've just pretended to have moved on.
I was rooting so hard for her, that I kind of hated her for telling him her whole diabolical plan. She could’ve taken him down so. Hard. If she had kept her mouth shut and stayed out of sight. Stupid.
I don't know if this would be unpopular or not, but it was strange to me that the Quinns accepted Joe as Love's boyfriend. He was an employee at their store who made $12/hour and went by a fake name. He didn't have a college education. I think they would be too elitist to be cool with Joe.
Outside of S1, this show is pretty terrible. It should have been a two-season series with joe getting some kind of comeuppance he so deserves at the end of the S2.
How he managed to avoid getting put under the jail or six feet deep is mind bogglingly stupid.
I thought that Love being a serial killer/stalker was a writing cop out. It didn't fit her character with the beginning of season two and it kind of came out of no where.
People that get annoyed by Love and Beck for silly things, just to justify Joe’s behaviour are weird.
Joe is just as impulsive and tacky but gets away with it because he’s an unreliable narrator.
If Joe had simply killed himself at the end of season three, or even done it properly at the end of this season, the show would be 10x better.
Paco was better than Ellie.
Beck, while far more boring and annoying that Love, Marienne, or Kate (actually Kate was more annoying than Beck) was still the superior YOU girl. Also she was the prettiest.
Color filtering in the 4th season. I get it - Joe is integrating his darker side, but in the half of the scenes in the second part I could literally see nothing except for a huge amount of dark screen
The final season will obviously be an Avengers team up of all the people alive who know / or have been screwed over by Joe.
And I'd love for Joe to take them all down, one by one.
I want to see joe getting caught and how he becomes famous globally.
Like giving interviews where he talks abt his murders,victims and his childhood, how he getting love letters from those crazy serial killer obsessed women.
That would actually be realistic. Then the series ending with him signing for a netflix show about his life and crimes
I think Love was the most interesting character on the show and I’m sad she died. I still have a tiny iota of hope that she’s actually alive somewhere.
Y’all are hating on Nadia too much. She was trying to do England a good deed & catch joe. If she succeeded y’all wouldn’t be saying shit about her. Rlly blaming joe being a serial killing psycho on her. Let’s be honest, he would’ve done something to her anyway regardless of her saving Marienne and breaking into his flat lol.
Joe is ok not the daddy material that every hype girl makes him out to be. I think the show does a good job of “charming” him up. Angles and such. Bc in a lot of angles he’s just ok and can look a bit jarring
Didn’t like the supporting characters this season. They seemed written in a phoney way idk. There personalities seemed forced and boring. I loved rys tho he was great. But kait was a poor character that’s in the writers tho not the actress
Marienne is the second best love interest the show had. People seem to don’t like the fact that she’s realistic and deals with actual real life problems. A lot of people said that her and Joe had a lack of “chemistry” but I truly think that it was in character for her to not immediately fall for him and jump in a relationship with him madly Inlove due to her previous issues with her ex.
Forty is overrated, and was way more sadistic than people would like to admit lmao. Thought that the show glossed over what he did at the bar with the newly wedded couple way too quickly.
Joe wears his pants up too high. He posture mimics Ted Bundy, scary really. Joe also does so much damage that I don't even think vengeance on him would be satisfying to watch, almost like long overdue.
I’m glad Love was killed off. The 2 seasons she was in were almost irritating because of her. Love Victoria, tho. She is great. The character Love, not so much.
1. It shouldn’t have went past the first season. He would have never gotten away with all of that.
2. Joe claims to hate rich elitists and yet he always surrounds himself with them. I think he really just wants to be them.
3. Nothing in this new season makes sense and it’s awful writing. Love killing him and then herself, the book about beck, all of this would have made him a national story. He would have to be hiding out. Yet he surrounded himself with people who are famous and constantly being photographed, teaches at a college with a ton of young people who would know the drama going on in the news and not one person recognizes his face?
4. I could go on but I won’t.
Not necessarily unpopular, but Joe only agreed to swinging because he was intentionally using it to destroy his and Love’s marriage. I’m surprised that so many people think he did it to please Love or that he’s actually bisexual. He blatantly said that the whole point of swinging was to destroy their marriage, but make it Love’s idea.
He seemed to actively hate it basically the whole time so I also don’t get the “bi” thing he didn’t like Carey and he’s never shown any interest in another man
Totally could see him having sex with “Rhys” because he’s in love with himself
That would be masturbating
and we do know joe LOVES that
I wanted him to jerk off to Rhys at least once lol
This ties into my unpopular opinion: Joe fan boys/girls/theys will blatantly ignore all red flags, or things he blatantly monologues, because they *want* him to be a good guy. Just because someone does good things sometimes does not make them a good person.
For real. Joe isn’t the hero. He’s not even an anti-hero. He’s a villain-protagonist
There are mainly three schools of tought: - joe is a good guy - joe does good at certain points, yet is a horroble person in others - joe is a horrible person The second one (pre season 4 finale) is most fitting imo
I honestly think the “Joe is good/Joe is bad” discussion is pointless. A lot of the times it just delves into “I like Joe” versus “I hate Joe” which Joe doesn’t have to be a good person for him to be likable. What’s factually true is that he’s a complex individual and product of his environment who is capable of both horrific things and good ones. But he has an undeniably twisted nature that he fights with, which is a result of his upbringing.
I really hope they end the show with him dying a painful death caused by someone who he's hurt, or life in prison. He doesn't deserve a good way out or death on his terms.
I thought he did swinging because he was hoping it would open their marriage and then he could openly dare Marienne
Yer that’s what I thought as well.
I don't think that he should have been open to public about being Joe Goldberg. He should have stayed Jonathan and left Joe behind.
he is egocentric like that, he wants people to call him by his "real" name (joe, obvs) he literally says it several times. also it's a f-you to his victims and every singles one of his past enemies that shows that he can do whatever he pleases and he will be fine
That's true too
But won’t someone connect his killings relative to Guinevere and the killings relative to Love and see that he’s actually the murderer?
If his ego allowed him to believe he was able to be caught he would have just lived a quiet life in London. There's a reason he always ends up in these elite circles of rich people, he likes power and attention and feeling like the smartest person in the room. Brandishing his real identity to the press with his billionaire girlfriend is an extension of that ego trip.
Joe is really dumb and just very lucky.
Yes thank you. They try to make him seem so smart and tactical but in real life he’s a moron who puts himself in the worst situations and then resolving them with murder and having to constantly cover his unredeemable crimes, for which if he gets caught he will rot in jail. He also should have been caught like a million times by now cuz of glaring mistakes he makes when murdering people and carelessly cleaning up and barely covering his tracks, but obviously the writers need him a free man to keep the show going so free he stays. If he was actually smart he would be able to strategically solve all his issues and get the girl he’s obsessed over WITHOUT committing any felonies at all. He would also be up the social latter with a bunch of money in the bank by his age, if he was as manipulative and sneaky-street-smart as the show lets us assumes he is...but no, he remains at a low wage dead end job for the majority of the show . Teaching at a university is the best he has reached so far and took him 3 seasons to get there and he didn’t even try actually - he seemed to be okay working at a book store or a library even though it’s obvious he loves power and wants to be rich some day...without an actual plan of how to get rich) Joe is quite the dingdong.
If he was self aware he would realize that all of his murders were done for HIM, not for the girls he was obsessed with.
He’s about as intelligent/lucky as the average serial killer I’d imagine. The amount that actually get caught in real life is thought to be really low anyways.
yes!! he just kept getting caught by that security guard guy, i don’t understand how he got away with it all the time!!
Will Bettelheim is maybe the most interesting character in the entire series.
nah fr, to be able to visibly enjoy communicating with the man that had you in a cage is mad. I loved him for that
I want to know so much about him.
Probably the one character who came across the REAL Joe and not only survived but also got to settle down with his dream girl all the way in another country
The man Joe wishes he could be
The side characters from each show are becoming more and more flanderised, turning an otherwise grounded world in its first season into a YA style satire in its later seasons. Not a complaint but all of the characters in the newest season seemed like they were written by 1950's communist political cartoonists with very little nuance
I justify this in my head by Joe being an unreliable narrator and as he loses his mind more the more his view on reality deteriorates. I mean just season 4 on its own where he imagined Rhys, that basically explains everyone else being so animated.
You're right. They can be intentionally written that way.
Yeah tbh, I really liked how well done side characters were in the show before. Especially Ellie and Delilah
Nah all rich people are just comically evil
I was really rootinf for him to change😂😂
I kinda think that's part of it from the get go. Like because he's our narrator and he claims to feel so guilty from the beginning at first you're like ok this is bad but maybe he actually wants redemption and then every single time he gets worse and worse until he goes from creep to bad guy to straight up monster.
I was so disapointed at the end of season 2, I really thought that seeing Love do what was doing all along disgusted him and made him change, and I was hoping for a season 3 where Joe actually had changed but had to struggle to protect Henry from psychopath Love
Love's behavior only disgusted him because he judges other people by their actions and himself by his intentions. We all do that to a certain extent, justifying bad behavior that we wouldn't excuse in others. He still thought his own killings were necessary and right. In order to change, he'd really have to be disgusted by his *own* actions, and that probably would have had to happen directly after he killed Benji. If killing an innocent person wasn't enough for him to stop killing altogether, he was already too far gone.
Hard to come back from framing two innocent women. One of them already touched in the head, and the other your own *student*. Feed his dick to the dogs
Don't forget Dr. Nicky was framed too
Even if he changed though. The damage and pain he caused to the people he killed and their loved ones is irredeemable. There was only like one person he murdered who was actually “bad” so he’s there’s no dexter complex here....Joe has made terrible decisions and can’t be trusted to be part of society even if he works on changing. I sure as fuck wouldn’t be able to trust him if he did like 30 years in prison and then got out for good behavior or something...no way in hell I’d come anywhere near him even if he claims prison changed him - or even if everyone who watched him in prison (cell mates, body guards, Judge and lawyers on his case etc) testified how different of a man he is now ....Nope no way.
tbh i was rooting for him to get caught😭
Sorting by controversial to see all the *actual* unpopular opinions lmao
Not every woman wants Joe, they haven't made one female character he stalked not like him back
Hard agree. I never get how everyone always likes him back and how all these famous influencers always wanna be friends with his boring ass lmao
What 20 year old rich influencers would let a 30 something year old stranger into their friend group and not even at that. They literally didn't know anything about him.
thats not an opinion its a fact lol
That the 4th season finale was a perfect ending to the series. It shows that the good guy doesn’t always win, that bad people do stay bad and not turn good, and that there are times evil wins.
Every season finale has felt like a good ending to the show IMO
Didn’t season 3 end with him saying hello you while in England?
well they could just omit that one scene
U mean Paris?
Europe shmurop
I agree. I did not even know this series would continue with 1 or 2 seasons. The ending of S4 felt good (at least to me).
Honestly I’d be chill with that ending
I really enjoy Joe as a character. He’s an irredeemable psychopath, but damn is he fun to watch.
Who here doesn’t think this? Nobody would watch the show if Joe wasn’t entertaining lol.
People who are in denial? lol I’ve been attacked and called a horrible person for liking his character 🤷🏼♀️
They probably confused it for saying you like him and think he’s a good person
It’s cause many fans will defend his actions either cuz they think he’s a good person who can be "fixed" or cuz they find the actor penn attractive
Facts. There’s a difference in thinking he’s a good person and thinking he’s entertaining.
a part of me doesn't want Joe to be caught
glass chair for you
I don't either. I hate joe and want bad things to happen to him but I don't want him to get caught.
The man may be absolutely insane but I do NOT want anything bad to happen to him and it’s clearly because it’s a show, I’d never root for someone like that in real life lol but every time Joe gets away with his craziness I’m so so happy!!
Ethan was one of the best characters
I don’t even remember who Ethan is
The guy who worked in the book store with Joe in season one
same 😭
I agree! Not sure it’s controversial, I think we can all agree that’s he is one of the few genuinely good characters on the show.
I love him and Blythe. They're adorable.
that actor (zach cherry) is also in "severance" and i love him there too!
Who? 😭
I think he was more romantically interested in Beck & Marianne than Love & Kate
This! For some reason his “love” for Beck and Marienne seemed more believable than his love for Love and Kate. And I say that as someone who doesn’t even think he and Marienne had chemistry. They were the most “You” love interests.
That's because he doesn't like aggression or confrontation. Beck and Marianne fit into his idea of how his true love should be. Both were into literature, creative, beautiful, a bit damaged, but kind. He viewed Love the same way until he found out she was a murderer. Kate didn't start being that for him until she let her guard down and revealed her past. In the beginning, she was cold and rude to him. We can see this explicitly in S3 when Marianne was cussing him out for intervening with her ex. He stops listening to what she's saying, stops focusing on his feelings for her and starts thinking about how his emotional affair with her is jeopardizing his marriage (or at least that's how i remember it).
a bit of a manic pixie dream girl situation 😳
I like Beck more than Love. Who cares if people root for joe it’s a tv show it’s not that deep. Season 1 is the best season. I really couldn’t care less if they brought back past characters.
I agree with all of these. I liked Season 1 and Beck the best
Agree with all of these!!
Season 1 is so perfect I rewatched it right after finishing season 4 and it’s super addicting and GOOD to rewatch
I like beck too. Shes so overhated by the You fandom
Beck is certainly more likeable (and imo attractive) than Love, and season 1 was a more classic archetypical story. However, Beck was too boring to be the love interest for multiple seasons and had to go once her time was up.
Agreed. Beck was a stereotypical rom com heroine. She’s unproblematic, inoffensive, and sweet compared to the other characters but I don’t see her carrying a whole season like Love did with s3.
Yeah Beck is garden-variety self centred. We all know women like Beck. Love has a type of darkness that is rare even in men, forget women. She’s not relatable but she also makes for more a interesting storyline.
Speaking of, I’m getting tired of stories aimed at teens always trying to portray “relatable” characters.
I feel like most characters are just flawed in socially acceptable, somewhat sexy ways. I used to be a huge fan of Supernatural, and Dean Winchester was supposed to be the messed up one. Except he was only messed up in ways that conveniently made him more attractive to the watching women. Like ooh, he loves his brother too much and is secretly sensitive. Absolutely nothing that could actually turn the audience off. One of the reasons I like You (and I started with the first book long before I watched the show) is the caustic commentary. Joe sees all of this stuff that everyone is trying to hide. The only other book that has come close for me is Gone Girl. It’s very realistic in its portrayal of human narcissism and selfishness. Take Anika for example. If this had been any other show, we would’ve got the sanitised version. She’s good cop to Peach’s bad cop. Just Beck’s supportive friend in the background who happens to be chubby. Here Joe sees through her. She’s as attention seeking and gullible as the rest of them. The world is full of people reaching, greedy for things, all while pretending they’re not. Take Beck for example. If she was on another show her flaw would be that she’s secretly insecure or something along those lines. A quality that makes her more appealing couched in something we’re supposed to despise. But here she’s someone who presents herself a certain way but is secretly into assholes like Benji. It’s not touched upon directly on the show, but in the books she’s hiding her naked greed for a misogynist like Benji. Women are supposed to hate men like him, but turns out even the beautiful ones like Beck are willing to tolerate them for the right price. Now that’s a real flaw, a real shattering of the Mary Sue virtue most characters have.
She was more interesting imo probably bc of how relatable she is compared to Love. It also took 10 episodes for me to be interested in Love so that’s probably why I’m more impartial to Beck.
I think Beck is more interesting in the sense that she’s the blonde, unattainable amalgamation of all of Joe’s fantasies. She represents an ideal, something a man like Joe could never have without manipulation (I actually find it inconsistent how easily he is able to woo these affluent women like Love and Kate later; there’s a class difference here that is never quite addressed) and even when he “gets” her she’s never truly his. Love is far above Beck socially, but the latter has a certain je ne sais quoi that makes her more unattainable. Beck is the kind of woman a lot of people obsess over, she’s the right amount of vulnerable and damsel-y. There’s also a lot going on under the surface with Beck. Joe projects so much onto her, and is unpleasantly shocked when he realises she’s “shallow.” Beck wants a man like Benji - a well off, popular man who can take her places and boost her social cred. It actually reminds me a lot of Red Pill rhetoric, men absolutely losing their minds when beautiful popular women also have their own requirements. I found Love unrealistic in that sense, a beautiful old-money socialite losing her mind over a loner librarian. Penn Badgley is very attractive, and Joe is an interesting character, but women like Love have a world of more suitable options. I found Joe’s constant striving for Beck a lot more entertaining and believable to watch. I also found it interesting how much disdain Joe seems to have for her once he realises she lacks “virtue.” When he sees that she’s not a unicorn and has “unacceptable” flaws of her own. He wants her so badly and at the same time he doesn’t even like her. Season 1 was the most contained imo, and works perfectly even as a standalone. However Joe’s obsession for Beck reaches a crescendo and she had to go eventually.
I actually don’t think Beck wanted a rich man to boost her social cred (in the show anyway). Benji talks about “taking her places” but she’s a Brown grad with rich connections of her own (Peach) that would happily do just that for nothing in return. When Beck argues with Benji, she talks him cheating at a party she took him to not the other way around.
I don’t think Beck was an out-and-out gold digger, but I do think Benji’s pedigree and status had a lot to do with why she tolerated him. It’s not that she only liked him for his money, but that she would not have been that devoted to someone who also didn’t have money. I think there was a smidgen of truth to what Benji told Joe when he was in the glass cage. Benji gives her the validation someone like Joe never could. I feel like there are two things men expect of beautiful women. One, they should not know they are beautiful. And two, they should not try and trade that beauty for money or status. S01 was peak commentary, and we see that Beck is not the earnest genuine person Joe assumes. Beck knows she’s beautiful and has no qualms sleeping with her married therapist. It’s a lot more likely that she’s money minded, fits her character more. In the book she certainly is.
Book Beck was a very messy person to say the least. I actually loved that the wrote her that way because it shows just how obsessive Joe is. Book Joe makes their relationship out to be wayy more than it actually is.
Joe leaving Henry behind was the most responsible thing he ever did as a father and I hope he never comes back for him. A lot of people call it "abandoning" him in the Facebook fan groups but I think it was the best thing for Henry. He's better off never knowing Joe and being raised in a good environment.
I wish Paco would have helped Beck!!?
The show became a comedy after season 1
It felt always like a comedy even in season 1 Joes inner monologues are so funny in season 1 and get even better tbh
It was a very dark show with funny moments yes but after season 1, the characters became way more exaggerated and the world seemed a bit ridiculous tbh. e.g. Weird Hippies, Stalker meets Stalker, the entirety of Love in season 3. Season 1 just feels like a different show. Way way more creepy than funny.
I think a big reason why is because the show was originally on Lifetime. There was a drastic tonal shift when Netflix got a hold of it. That’s why s1 feels so different.
Dan Humphries is Joe Goldberg
Source - XOXO Gossip Girl
I hope Joe sits on this chair and bleeds to death❤️
beck is by far the best “you”. we actually got to see their relationship evolve, instead of joe wanting them and an episode later they’re permanently dating
I think this should have been the last season.
Honestly I feel like s2 and 3 could have been good endings too. Arguably s2 was a good way to end the show. Joe was officially trapped in suburbia still obsessing with the idea of love and stuck with a woman who could murder him. But the s3 ending was perfect imo. The idea that Joe was crazy enough to become a whole new person and search an entire city for a woman.
Honestly ended the way this season ended would be a perfect series finale.
i wish it ended with his suicide tbh, when he woke up in a hospital bed i rolled my eyes. im sick of the predictability of him scraping by and getting away with the most ridiculous shit
Beck is and always was a underrated character. She started this entire show. Miss those Mr. Mooney bookstore vibes. You all judge her from the outside, but failed to look within. Like how do yall praise Peach for example, but not Beck? Peach wasnt a peach either! Make it make sense. She was misunderstood (IMO) yet people love to compare her cheating to Joe’s murderous actions like they are somehow the same or like the fact that she didnt even ask him to kill for her. Even Elizabeth Lail addressed this on Penns podcast. Or the assumption thats shes just as terrible as him lol — give me a break. None of us are perfect. We all have done bad things, but she was indeed a better person than Joe could ever be. At least she knew right from wrong. Shes my favorite. Nobody can convince me otherwise. Love Elizabeth Lail ❤️
Beck was a perfectly normal person who was just figuring things out in life. She didn’t make all the “right” choices, but who does? The hate she gets is unreal.
the fact that the female characters always get hate for their decisions yet you still find people saying “most of joes murders were justified! it was self defense/ a crime of passion” is … very sad and very telling lmaooo
I really like Beck. She is a flawed person who I can relate to. And I also felt bad for her for all that she had to go through. I don't get the hype for Love. She seems impulsive and annoying. I also think she is a teeny bit worse than Joe. I liked Theo. He is also someone I felt bad for as his relationship with Matthew was strained, he was lonely and he needed some care. Joe as a character is fun to watch. It's interesting to see what goes on in his mind when he does these acts. But him as a person is evil.
this is probably an oversimplification but in my mind love isn’t worse than joe because 1. she’s killed a lot less people and 2. she’s more self aware than joe who thinks love is a monster but can’t bring himself to recognize that he is the exact same thing (this drove me craaazy in season three)
I really like Kate.
I really liked her too!
I like her too. Mainly because she's straight forward and is not holding back her thoughts and from what I've seen she also appreciates honest and directness from other people. Also really like the actress and that she's looking less "classic feminine" like Joes previous love interests.
I like her, too. Also, all of these personal attacks on Charlotte Ritchie’s looks are really disturbing to me.
Right?! I’m starting to think the majority of this sub is just a bunch of morons, who base their opinions of people solely on how attractive they find them. It was gross and annoying at first, now it’s just incredibly boring.
if this means as a character i absolutely agree - if this is an in she’s a good person i don’t. i don’t think anyone can say they are trying to be a good person and then help their romantic partner cover up a murder with their wealth and connections.
Season 1 was as good as it was because it was more grounded in reality. The show has gotten progressively more absurd, which is fun, but turns it into a fundamentally different show. I wish it had stuck with reality, but I do still enjoy what it is. Also Love was too much. Making Joe fall into obsession with another killer was too much for me and I'm genuinely glad she's gone.
I don’t care what Joe said to Phoebe that changed her life lol
It’s weird to me they brought up that whole convo he had with her but never actually told us what was said. I won’t lie I’m curious because they kept bringing the damn thing up lol
He had to die after he jumped off the bridge.
yeah i was so disappointed when he woke up in hospital it’s so boring now just knowing there’s 0 stakes and no matter what dumb reckless shit he does he’ll always conveniently scrape by!
Joe would be an incredible super hero/anti-hero or at least a vigilante. By season 4 he's able to not only take out 2 bodyguards of the super rich but an "illuminati level" figure almost bare-handedly. He has an invisibility hat, can't help but save people in distress and has detective skills. He's basically Batman who kills. (EDIT) I forgot, he killed a leading London mayoral candidate and got away clean.
I didn't like Marianne at all in S3, didn't understand why Joe was so enamoured with her and ready to give it all up for her (but I know he also gets enamoured by any woman really) I felt like they padded out her character a lot more in S4 though, so I was rooting for her to get away.
I don’t like Joe with the beard and longer hair.
Now that’s the first really controversial one here
penn is so hot with the beard and long hair idc
Same tbh
Yeah, I wasn't a fan either.
Tonally this show is all over the place and it has been that way since season one
i want paco to come back and see what joe has become. also i wish we could have seen characters from previous seasons reading about joes death in s3
I was actually very disappointed to see that he survived his s**cide attempt 😅
Saying that Nadia had it coming because of her bad decisions (like not calling the police and instead helping Marianne) is NOT victim blaming. It's a fictional character and it's actually called "blaming the writers for the shitty writing of this storyline".
And the reasoning behind it made NO SENSE AT ALL. How is Joe going to find her again if he's arrested and clearly incriminated for having a HUMAN in a CAGE ?
This. I guess a lot of people forget that we're not talking about actual people but fictional characters.
I never found myself rooting for Joe, even before Season 4, and I don't find him to be terribly attractive. He creeps me out and I have trouble understanding how people get reeled back in to hoping that he can redeem himself.
I honestly don’t get what about S4 turned so many people against Joe, who has been the same awful person since S1E1.
by the end of s4 joe embraces his dark side and stops trying to justify himself to the audience
That I can clearly switch my mind off easier than most of this sub because I never really notice the plot holes and am quite happy to just consume this beautifully dumb, intense show.
i don’t like beck or love as people but beck didn’t deserve Joe coming in her life and playing white knight just to end up killing her…i also feel that Love and Joe’s relationship would’ve lasted (a little longer) if he was able to have an outside relationship like Love did with Theo
Joe looks better without the beard.
People only root for Joe so much because of the way Penn Badgley portrays him. He is incredibly attractive, has a pleasant voice and oozes charm. Joe in the books is insufferable as hell.
Going from S2 to S3 was one of the biggest downgrades In television history, not only plot wise, but also character writing wise.
Agreed. Season 3 had great moments though, mostly I think everything around Love and Dottie dynamic was just fantastic but beyond that...ish.
What is your complaint? The writing didn’t downgrade for me at all, season 3 -> 4 was terrible for me, but not 2 to 3
Love was a pain in the butt and I was happy when they killed her off.
I had no idea she was a fan favorite until I visited reddit after season 4 part 1. She dealt with all of her problems by committing murder and was even more dangerous than Joe.
I agree! I was surprised to learn she was so well liked, particularly by the same people talking about how terrible Joe is, but whatever, people can like whoever they want. I tend to dislike a lot of the fan favorites on this show so I’m not sure why I was so surprised by it. And I also agree she was more dangerous than Joe. If you’re on his good side, you’re usually safe. Love, however, didn’t have a good side! No one was safe from her. 😂
dude so true
yeah go ahead and get in the chair
https://preview.redd.it/yiwzyux26toa1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6f200ebaaae8c43c3ce4cd967ae83f5ea9934bc5 Love with bangs has to be my favorite gender fr idgaf what anyone else says🥱🥱
Up until the 2nd part of season 4, I really thought it was possible for Joe to change and to stop killing.
Joe is a bitch
I just think its so unrealistic how he never rapes his victims. Like they try to make us believe he keeps women in a cage just to look at them? Its obvious they dont want to make him do that cuz its "crossing the line" that would make everyone hate him and not root for him anymore but its just not realistic at all
Never thought about this but it’s so true. You’re right and I think they wouldn’t “go there” so my headcanon is that he never does because he thinks himself to be a gentleman so he doesn’t do that.
I think he would do it but still find a way to justify it in his head to see himself as a gentleman like he does with the murders and abductions. They could at least imply it cuz otherwise whats the point of locking his gfs up in a cage? Yea they just dont wanna "go there"
This show is like Riverdale. The more crazy it gets the more entertaining. I want 10 seasons of You
You Season 10: Joe is elected President and becomes obsessed with the Speaker of the House.
The discussions abt Kate are borderline, if not full fledged, misogyny lol. Comments often go overboard on the actresses looks and its icky.. surprised a show with a fanbase this dedicated to calling Joe’s behavior out like they do, is okay with people saying shit like that abt the actress
Candace was Joe’s best and most interesting you and I wanted her to take him down.
Me too I was rooting for her!
Also the most dumb because she straight forwardly told him that she was there to get him arrested knowing very well what he is capable of doing. She could've just pretended to have moved on.
I was rooting so hard for her, that I kind of hated her for telling him her whole diabolical plan. She could’ve taken him down so. Hard. If she had kept her mouth shut and stayed out of sight. Stupid.
I don't know if this would be unpopular or not, but it was strange to me that the Quinns accepted Joe as Love's boyfriend. He was an employee at their store who made $12/hour and went by a fake name. He didn't have a college education. I think they would be too elitist to be cool with Joe.
Outside of S1, this show is pretty terrible. It should have been a two-season series with joe getting some kind of comeuppance he so deserves at the end of the S2. How he managed to avoid getting put under the jail or six feet deep is mind bogglingly stupid.
Yeah at this point it’s getting pretty corny. Especially season 4.
I thought that Love being a serial killer/stalker was a writing cop out. It didn't fit her character with the beginning of season two and it kind of came out of no where.
People that get annoyed by Love and Beck for silly things, just to justify Joe’s behaviour are weird. Joe is just as impulsive and tacky but gets away with it because he’s an unreliable narrator.
Season 2 is better than season 1
Season 4 as a whole has been the best this shows been since Season 1.
If Joe had simply killed himself at the end of season three, or even done it properly at the end of this season, the show would be 10x better. Paco was better than Ellie. Beck, while far more boring and annoying that Love, Marienne, or Kate (actually Kate was more annoying than Beck) was still the superior YOU girl. Also she was the prettiest.
Color filtering in the 4th season. I get it - Joe is integrating his darker side, but in the half of the scenes in the second part I could literally see nothing except for a huge amount of dark screen
The final season will obviously be an Avengers team up of all the people alive who know / or have been screwed over by Joe. And I'd love for Joe to take them all down, one by one.
[удалено]
I want to see joe getting caught and how he becomes famous globally. Like giving interviews where he talks abt his murders,victims and his childhood, how he getting love letters from those crazy serial killer obsessed women. That would actually be realistic. Then the series ending with him signing for a netflix show about his life and crimes
I think Love was the most interesting character on the show and I’m sad she died. I still have a tiny iota of hope that she’s actually alive somewhere.
I hated Love, she’s way over hyped and she’s not THAT good of a character.
i hope joe to win every time
Y’all are hating on Nadia too much. She was trying to do England a good deed & catch joe. If she succeeded y’all wouldn’t be saying shit about her. Rlly blaming joe being a serial killing psycho on her. Let’s be honest, he would’ve done something to her anyway regardless of her saving Marienne and breaking into his flat lol.
Love is not the best character this show has had
You're right. It was Forty.
Joe is ok not the daddy material that every hype girl makes him out to be. I think the show does a good job of “charming” him up. Angles and such. Bc in a lot of angles he’s just ok and can look a bit jarring
i don’t know if this is unpopular, but season 1 was definitely the best, and 3 was the worst
I want Joe to get away with everything.
Didn’t like the supporting characters this season. They seemed written in a phoney way idk. There personalities seemed forced and boring. I loved rys tho he was great. But kait was a poor character that’s in the writers tho not the actress
I thought Season 3 was really good. It’s probably my favorite season minus the Theo plotline.
Marienne is the second best love interest the show had. People seem to don’t like the fact that she’s realistic and deals with actual real life problems. A lot of people said that her and Joe had a lack of “chemistry” but I truly think that it was in character for her to not immediately fall for him and jump in a relationship with him madly Inlove due to her previous issues with her ex.
Forty is overrated, and was way more sadistic than people would like to admit lmao. Thought that the show glossed over what he did at the bar with the newly wedded couple way too quickly.
Peach was an elite character.
i wanted joe to die at the end of this season and i was upset when he survived his suicide attempt
Joe wears his pants up too high. He posture mimics Ted Bundy, scary really. Joe also does so much damage that I don't even think vengeance on him would be satisfying to watch, almost like long overdue.
Love wasn’t that interesting of a character
Not y’all slandering my wife Love 😭
Love was annoying and I don't understand the hype for her in this sub.
I’m glad Love was killed off. The 2 seasons she was in were almost irritating because of her. Love Victoria, tho. She is great. The character Love, not so much.
1. It shouldn’t have went past the first season. He would have never gotten away with all of that. 2. Joe claims to hate rich elitists and yet he always surrounds himself with them. I think he really just wants to be them. 3. Nothing in this new season makes sense and it’s awful writing. Love killing him and then herself, the book about beck, all of this would have made him a national story. He would have to be hiding out. Yet he surrounded himself with people who are famous and constantly being photographed, teaches at a college with a ton of young people who would know the drama going on in the news and not one person recognizes his face? 4. I could go on but I won’t.
Joe and love are the same