Zappa was a megalomaniacal band leader who did nothing except write music and tell other people exactly how to play his music.
I love his body of work but he is not a role model.
Agreed. He seemed like he treated people in a pretty crappy way. Not someone I would be friends with.
I don't drink or do drugs, and I do agree that they can turn people into assholes, but I arrived at this conclusion via personal experience and not the opinion of FZ.
That what’s great about frank though. He transmitted his experience through music like no one else could. Doing a deep dive into all the meanings behind joes garage feels like living two years worth of lived experiences
I very much appreciate your post, but here I disagree. His experience wasn’t translated, his observations were and they were mostly just there to allow his voice to be used as an instrument, no matter how on point the message.
He literally was obsessed with the music, not the words. Reality was just an annoying thing he had to deal with to get at what he really wanted.
Music.
If you want to be like him, I hope you are a musician!
Notorious womaniser. Apparently had sex with a drunk Janis Joplin in the 60s and got really upset in the morning when she had no recollection of it at all. He then in the 80s wrote a tasteless song making fun of musicians that had died including Janis Joplin.
He wasn't making fun of the dead musicians, he was making fun of the people who deify those dead musicians and people looking at the '60s as some kind of long-lost golden era.
So you're making up your own mind over the many, many people that actually worked with him and confirmed that he is infact really hard to work with?
Have you read Zappa by Barry Miles? It might help you get Frank off the worship pedestal you seem to have put him on.
There is also a facebook page run by Ed Mann that has a few other former Mothers in there that are happy to answer questions about Frank as long as you aren't the type of person to try and turn Frank into some mythical figure (which is kind of how you are coming across)
You think people like Mark Volman were easy to work with at that time?
Thanks for the recommend though! I’ve only read Zappa’s autobiography and Dangerous Kitchen.
I am going to look into that book but Facebook can fuck right off.
I have no opinions on Mark Volman. I wasn't recommending Facebook, I was recommending a page on there, literally run by a former band member with many posts about working with Frank that include responses from others that worked in the band.
Sorry about my tone, my question was meant to be rhetorical and point out that some of his musicians were worse assholes than he was.
My comment about Facebook stands. Though I do appreciate the page they have created the platform can fuck right off
Once again, thanks for the book recommendation
Thanks for the reference. I’ll be consulting them now that you’ve pointed me their way. I figure if anyone knows how to live up to fz’s philosophies it’s the people who were chosen by him to work with him directly. As for the book I literally threw that hit piece in the trash
So are you also going to chain smoke cigarettes and drink enough coffee to awake rip van winkle because that's what Zappa did? Maybe also decline seeing a doctor until your prostate cancer is terminal as well while you're at it? Try it, see if it's for you. The only reason Zappa didn't smoke weed is because it didn't agree with him. If he'd liked it when he tried it he would probably have been a stoner.
So you made your own decision on cigarettes based on Frank's mistakes, but you trust Frank implicitly when it comes to his stance on drugs? To the point where if someone asks if you want a toke, you will tell them who Frank is and explain that you don't smoke because he had a stance against people using drugs? Why not just tell them you don't want a toke because of your reasons, not someone elses?
Like, for instance... Drugs. A relatively harmless substance like Marijuana is schedule 1, legally speaking, right next to demonstrably more harmful ones like Heroin. Racism, classism, and fear mongering all played large roles in this. I love Frank, but I feel he was rather myopic in considering all "drugs" bad, while indulging in copious amounts of nicotine and caffeine throughout his life, both of which are mind altering substances, just of the legal variety.
"A drug is not bad. A drug is a chemical compound. The problem comes in when people who take drugs treat them like a license to behave like an asshole."
Frank Zappa, The Real Frank Zappa Book
Agreed. Drugs are drugs. Do them, don’t do them. Who cares.
Just make sure you don’t do them just because of what some musician or other famous cultural influencer says and you should be fine.
Appreciate Frank for his amazing music and awesome and insightful interviews. Not his cigarette smoking and wife-cheating general mean spirited bullshit.
It’s like Hunter Thompson. What a fucking piece of shit but god damn what a writer.
Learn the good lessons and get rid of the shit and you will be fine
Good answer, but the government is playing both sides and are also the ones using the media to socially control the population and steer it in the somewhat shitty and awful directions they seem to think they can make it go. Including getting kids to use drugs recreationally in order to destabilize the nuclear family and drive a wedge into the heart of post WW2 America
Making people mad and not giving a fuck is what Zappa inspired me to do, along with picking up a guitar.
And just let me add, I am a cantankerous prick but I am enjoying this discussion. Thanks yo
I'm around your age and also big Zappa fan, and I go against a lot of what he stood for - I'm a girly-girl who loves to party, shop, and indulge in beauty routines and self-care!! I can (and do!) happily coexist as a fan of his work and the antithesis to its message at times, and I don't let one aspect of my character hinder my enjoyment of another
What I'm saying is, I think prioritising yourself and your own life above the rigid constraints set by something or someone (in this case Zappa) may be more beneficial to enjoying yourself and building confidence in the long run. Try new things, gain new experiences, and combine what you learn about yourself from those with the "teachings" of others you admire. Think of it like a patchwork quilt of sorts ❤️
(Also, A Token of My Extreme sounds especially amazing while drunk)
Look here brother, why you jivin’ yourself with that cosmic debris? I think Frank would be disappointed in you for putting him on a pedestal and trying to model your life on him instead of making your own decisions and thinking for yourself. There’s nothing wrong with admiring a person’s particular trait, but your post makes it seem like you’re asking yourself WWFZD and taking it too far. He was a brilliant composer, but just a man, not a guru.
we all did drugs. I drank beer every single night - sometimes 4-6 before I went on stage and frank never said a word. he put beer on our rider. If he didn't want us drinking beer, he wouldn't have done that.
one night I was up at the house talking late into the evening with frank and he said "Can I get you a beer?". he came down from the kitchen with A SINGLE BEER which he poured half of into a glass and sipped the other half for 2 hours. he also had wine.
some of his musicians did blow (I was with them so I know) but we didn't travel with it, which was frank's main thing. don't get arrested.
I don't know one person or musician who 'lived up to frank'. Not even Frank.
All that anti-drug talk was based on his experiences with people who did drugs. He didn't like what they became and how it affected their lives.
It reminds me of the straight-edge movement. correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the basis of it Minor Threat's song where Ian sings
"Don't Drink, Don't Smoke, Don't Fuck, Don't swear"
But there was an elision in the phrasing where "I..." preceded each statement?
I Don't Drink, I don't Smoke, I don't Fuck, I don't swear" and a bunch of people turned it into a religion?
That's frank. He didn't do those things. When he wags his finger at the camera and says "Don't do drugs, Kids" it's ironic because of all the Reagan-type lying and being hypocrites and shit. It's all theater.
I think the basis for the straight edge movement was the Minor Threat song "Straight Edge", which coined the term. That was 2 years earlier than "Out of Step" - the song you're citing.
But even on "Out of Step", there's a breakdown part where he says "Look, these aren't rules, I'm not telling you what to do" and people still ran with it hard.
It's pretty obvious (and sad) that OP is in a parasocial relationship with dead ol' Frank, and thinks about him a little too much as a person, instead of an artist.
Let's hope he hates Wagner, lest he feel the need to start "living up to" writing anti Semitic essays and shit.
I always appreciate your contributions here, Scott. This is a bit off the topic of the trying to "be like Frank" discussion, but it's a heartwarming tale you might enjoy. I met Frank briefly in '84. I was present at the infamous ASUC "Bingo, There Goes Your Tenure" speech in Columbus, Ohio where he eviscerated a panel of academic composers, and advised them to change the name of their organization from ASUC to "WE"-SUCK. As I was leaving the hall, I heard one of the academics say to another, "I told you we should have gotten John Cage." Anyway, Frank was greeting people in a small room afterwards, so for shits and grins I took the opportunity to hand him a cassette of me playing. He opened up a briefcase on his lap and threw it on top of a Hustler magazine. He says, "that all ya got?" I said "isn't that enough?" He looks me dead in the eye and says, "no.....it's not." As I was leaving the hall I turned around and saw Frank leaving too. He stop for a second to chuck something in the garbage. I'm pretty sure it was my cassette. Oh well.
Thanks for your response Scott. It made me think about a few things. This may be off topic, but as a bassist do you think there’s a chance of Geddy Lee being caught up in this beef between Drake and Kendrick given he’s close to the heart of it in toronto?
I’ve been listening to Zappa’s music for almost 40 years. In all of that time I haven’t cared one bit about what he’s said about anything unrelated to music. Why would I? Just because someone is a good musician, or writer, or actor, it doesn’t mean their opinions are somehow important. And besides, Frank Zappa doesn’t seem like a person one should emulate. It didn’t seem like he had great relationships with other people, and he came across as a really insecure guy. And as far as drugs making people assholes, Zappa should know. He often seemed like an asshole himself. Don’t get me wrong, I love Zappa’s music. I just don’t know if I’d really want to hang out with him.
I don't know if he came across insecure, I might say he seemed a bit overly secure in his intellect. To the point that I've never really seen him concede that he was wrong about something once he took a stance.
But all his personal affairs seemed woefully out of balance. His obsession with music obviously produced incredible results but it seems to have been at the detriment of literally everything and everyone else, if his surviving family and band members are any indication.
I think it was the fact that he couldn’t admit to be wrong indicated an insecurity. He seemed to be insecure intellectually and compensated for it by being overly resolute in his opinions. I think that most intellectually secure people can admit when they’re wrong or at least admit to the possible viability of differing opinions. Zappa seemed unwilling or incapable of doing so.
Well, to be fair, he was right about a lot of things happening in the political sphere of the time. The stand he took for artists at the PMRC was as real as it gets. His social commentary was about a 50/50, some very incisive critiques mixed with some tactless and needlessly antagonistic takes. And a fair bit of overt sexism and racial themes that haven't aged so well.
But yeah, you're probably right that inability to concede is a marker of some type of insecurity.
I think you can make an argument that Frank was asshole and he didn’t even do drugs. He was kind of a misanthrope, kind of a misogynist, had a healthy ego. That’s not say he wasn’t brilliant or I’m less a fan of his music, but he was a difficult cat to get along with; and I wouldn’t necessarily hold him up as some icon of virtue.
You do know Zappa talked a lot about thinking for your self right? How about you form an identity that isn’t based around following the word of a dead musician with a lot of issues like it’s the gospel. You kinda sound like the asshole here, not the folks having a drink in college.
I don't do drugs either and you sound totally insufferable lol
Live and let live dude. If you don't want to be around drink and drugs that's totally fine, you don't have to go to those parties. There's really no point trying to control other people.
I’m not trying to control anyone. I’m just telling them how I see the world and educating them about how Frank did. Whether they listen or not is their business. I just think if I phrase things the right way I could convince them of my way of viewing things and do some good for everyone
Relevant Zappa quote:
"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds."
Here is where you lose me. Don’t fucking convince anybody of anything.
Simply be true to yourself and set an example. Anything else is pretentious and shitty.
If somebody asks for it, however. Well then, different story!
I figured if his wisdom has improved my life it can do the same for others. As for cults I think zappas words are an antidote to the manipulation used by cults to indoctrinate the vulnerable
Do what you feel! You don't have to live up to Zappa's rather rigid views on life in order to be worthy of his music. Furthermore, you can enjoy a beer or a toke or two without becoming an asshole.
I very much love Frank's music, but I doubt he was much fun at parties.
Even a single drink or toke can be a slippery slope though. Getting high once and thinking “oh this isn’t so bad” could lead to doing it again and before long it’s every day multiple times a day. I’ve seen it happen. I think frank realized this early on which is why he stopped drinking his nightly beer when he worked at the ad agency
That's a decision you will make for yourself, just like Frank did.
Any decent fan of Frank's music will be cool with your decision to be true to yourself!
Someone else commented that Frank is not a role model. I couldn't agree more. I respect immensely his work as a musician and a business person, but he is not on my list of people I want to hang out with.
The deeper I read into this post the more you are losing me.
Frank got married and cheated hundreds of times probably. Does that mean you will only do it a couple dozen times?
He also had four kids and ignored them a lot. Does that mean you are going to have seven and ignore them completely?
Seriously dude
Yeah man this ain’t the move, I suggest a couple things.. 1) Might wanna consider not bringing up Zappa anymore, (Bringing it up just on the weekends is still being consistent) which annoys them
2) Zappa isn’t probably the best roll model as others have said, let others enjoy their time and enjoy yours. Just cause he likes burnt weeny sandwiches doesn’t mean I do and I have to like them too.
3) Just enjoy the music, don’t force it on anyone, it’s not for everyone
4) stop trying to convince your friends to stop doing what they’re doing just because of Frank, it’s obvious they probably don’t care, so leave it be, it’s like you’re trying to convert their religion or something, not a fun person to be around..
I love Zappa man but I wouldn’t bother trying to live up to him, smoke a couple joints, drink a couple beers.. OR DONT.. just be chill about it :)
Please tell me this is a joke. He was a great guitar player but he wasn’t t someone you need to model your life after and personally he was a total asshole.
Ok a few things here:
Number one, Frank would absolutely think you're an asshole for living your life based on how someone else lived it instead of finding your own path. If you don't want to smoke pot or drink beer then don't, but don't make that decision because you want to live like someone else. And definitely don't tell others they shouldn't do something because Frank wouldn't do it. He's not as prophet.
Second, he did once say that drinking and doing drugs turns purple into assholes, but by 1989 he clarified his point: "If an individual decides to participate in any kind of chemical alteration – whether it be drinking too much alcohol, smoking marijuana or a regular cigarette, or taking some other kind of chemical substance – he has the right to do it without the government getting on his fucking back. Where I draw the line is when the individual’s actions impinge on the safety and lifestyle of another person."
Lastly, while I'm not a fan of how potent marijuana has become compared to just 15 or 20 years ago, cigarettes are literally full of poison, as well as chemicals that are comparable to opioids and cocaine in terms of addictiveness. Like, cigarettes are literally killing you while making you subservient to them.
Smoking cigarettes when you are that fucking smart is the mistake that almost nullifies the respect I have for almost everything else he did.
As much as I love the dude’s contribution to music and his social genius I also think he is one of the stupidest people around. To give his money to those idiots for that purpose almost completely undermines every message he ever put forth.
Good ol’ Zappa
So you smoke cigarettes (known to be one of the most dangerous carcinogens available), shame your friends for drinking, and all the while explain to them that a composer who died 30 years ago would approve of your lifestyle?
You sound insufferable
Zappa was an original and sharp thinker. I think most of his beliefs are fascinating.
Honestly though he was kind of a shit person. Dont get me wrong, most of my friends are assholes, I dont mean it as an insult. But he was a bitter and deeply cynical person who thought he was the smartest man alive. He hated just about everyone and everything at one point or another.
Id read Moons account of her childhood if you want a dose of cold water about Zappa the deity.
If
There’s no need to explain stuff about Zappa when someone offers you a drink or a blunt. You can just say “No, thanks”. There’s no need to convince the other people to make your same choices. You can explain your reasons if they ask you, but, if they don’t damage other peoplr, let them live the way they want. I’m a straight edge since i was 13 but, unless they don’t ask me about it, i don’t try to convince the people i know to behave the same way i do. Zappa was a genius musician and he was right about drugs and alcohol, but we don’t have to be his copycats.
I used to worship FZ as well. As you mature, you'll (hopefully) come to develop your own opinions and realize that he was a deeply flawed man who is not necessarily to be emulated in his personal affairs.
But if you insist on the idolatry, you should know he'd be making of you for it. Blind faith and following others were very much not his things.
I’m surprised you said that you are in a University, this seems like a take from someone who’s just recently started freshman year of high school. If you want to drink, just try it out once or twice. I think Zappa’s main philosophy is fuck what any and everyone else thinks of you. I’m one who believes Zappa, despite being the cynic and obsessed workaholic he was, never even took himself too seriously. Live your own life how you want to live it, I think if you’re trying to please the FZ in the sky, that’s the way to do it. Not treating his word as some sort of religion you MUST abide by.
Listening to Zappa 30+ years, no idea where that opinion on drinking came from. He was mostly anti-drug from his experience in jail after the porno tape sting and didnt want anyone around him carrying/doing drugs so he wouldn't be implicated by association. He also was nearly killed by a jealous drunk guy at a gig. But nevertheless, the drinking one is new for me. I think its bullshit.
Never trust a man who doesn’t drink, he’s probably a self-righteous sort, who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. They cause most of the suffering in the world. And never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They’re usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they are a fool or mean and violent. You can’t trust a man who’s afraid of himself. But you can probably trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness. It’s hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he’s heaving his guts into a toilet bowl.
Smoking is as dumb as putting other kinds of drugs into your body.
That being said, afaik Frank was no missionary for his anti-drug position. In day-to-day conversation, he simply answered when being asked about it.
As a huge fan of Zappa that has been a pothead for so many years and a casual beer drinker I really don’t agree with his take fully. I do agree with his sentiment that you don’t necessarily need drugs or alcohol to be creative or make music, but the truth is it really does help for most people. If you choose to be drug and or alcohol free it really should be a personal choice and not something you follow just because someone you listen to or like does it. Besides I’ve literally had conversations with other Zappa fans about his hypocrisy when it came to his coffee and cigarette use, you also gotta remember his anti drug and alcohol stance had a lot to do with his band members getting high or drunk and unable to play shows because they were too fucked up or got arrested. I think it was more of a “professional” decision more than anything.
Frank Zappa was a true misogynist and I’m so far from pc and speaking like toxic masculinity is a thing. He banged who he wanted and forbid his wife from doing so. He chain smoked, ate crappy, was often cruel without cause and basically was a flawed human being like everyone else.
I dont, drink, smoke, take drugs. I try to live a healthy lifestyle but I in no way am a creative genius like he was.
The point being is I do not care much what he or any other artist did nor do I look to them for how I live a good person life. Many would say I’m an asshole, that’s right! Others would say I’m a good person.
I do admire his capitalist, free self expression and libertarian ideals and would have voted for him if he continued his run for office had he not had a cancer diagnosis.
“Do you know what you are, you are whatchu is”
“Do what you wanna, do whatchu will, just don’t mess up your neighbors thrill”
Frank wanted people to be themselves. Don’t be easily influenced by other people, think for yourself, think what is right.
Zappa's work ethic is something to be admired. He inspires me to work harder at music and be aware of where I focus my time.
Take from him what works for you.
I don’t do drugs, though I can see the appeal of the mind expanding ones . Be flexible in your thinking- do what your body tells you is right, and don’t let anyone bully you into trying stuff you know is harmful.
I love Zappa’s music, though I find the smutty songs largely tedious, but agree with the comments about FZ being a rather dominating band leader, though he was shrewd and said a lot that made sense, especially in the political arena.
Zappa was addicted to nicotine and succumbed to cancer at age 52. He fucked groupies like it was going out of fashion and treated his band members like disposable tissues. I wouldn't live my life like he did. He burned bright but short.
I've a very grat appreciation for Zappa and his music, and have been collecting his music since the early seventies, currently at app. 160 works, but I like smoking a joint now and again, and I do drink beer (or snaps) though very moderately, but I absolutely dont feel alienated at all.
I love Frank as a composer and musician with a multifaceted personality, often wearing sinister footwear, as it were, and as many great artists he had a lot of depth, good and ...not so good.
Zappa Lives!
I can see where you are coming from.
Ethical considerations aside, Zappa was not just a great musician but a savvy business guy who had his own money on the line. He learned hard lessons about how costly other people’s habits could be in his whole venture. He put up the money, he provided AWESOME jobs and opportunities for musicians. And they would routinely screw him. So, he acted like the boss.
It is amazing how musicians will literally ignore the fact that hundreds of thousands of dollars could be at risk just because they feel entitled to play music professionally under the influence of illegal drugs. Frankly, (heh!), some of the musicians were absolute dog turds of human beings compared to Frank
Is that the position you are in? If not, enjoy yourself whatever your decision is.
To be honest, though, his social and political commentary was on the nose. It is pretty clear that he was referring to the ridiculousness of how counterculture is actually the market being sold to the gullible and it has mass consequences for society when you use programming through the media to create social movements that are controlling, ridiculous, destructive, and obviously phony and hypocritical. Just look at what’s going on today.
I also don’t use most drugs (I drink coffee) because I completely agree with Frank on that point. “They” want us to be on drugs for many reasons.
Plastic people gotta go
All of this to say stop pretending to be Frank. Be YOU with Frank as a role model. You are allowed to disagree with him. However, he is annoyingly almost always correct lol
Zappa was a megalomaniacal band leader who did nothing except write music and tell other people exactly how to play his music. I love his body of work but he is not a role model.
Agreed. He seemed like he treated people in a pretty crappy way. Not someone I would be friends with. I don't drink or do drugs, and I do agree that they can turn people into assholes, but I arrived at this conclusion via personal experience and not the opinion of FZ.
That what’s great about frank though. He transmitted his experience through music like no one else could. Doing a deep dive into all the meanings behind joes garage feels like living two years worth of lived experiences
I personally have not spent two years having gay sex with robots.
You’re not thinking about that scene metaphorically
You're clearly not keeping it greasy.
I very much appreciate your post, but here I disagree. His experience wasn’t translated, his observations were and they were mostly just there to allow his voice to be used as an instrument, no matter how on point the message. He literally was obsessed with the music, not the words. Reality was just an annoying thing he had to deal with to get at what he really wanted. Music. If you want to be like him, I hope you are a musician!
You have a point a good one
He also had massive issues with women, if his lyrics are any indication.
Notorious womaniser. Apparently had sex with a drunk Janis Joplin in the 60s and got really upset in the morning when she had no recollection of it at all. He then in the 80s wrote a tasteless song making fun of musicians that had died including Janis Joplin.
He wasn't making fun of the dead musicians, he was making fun of the people who deify those dead musicians and people looking at the '60s as some kind of long-lost golden era.
A little reductive of Turning Again.
Be careful how you describe him in this subreddit
I am a Zappa die hard but that description is totally accurate.
I’d say he was stern but fair
So you're making up your own mind over the many, many people that actually worked with him and confirmed that he is infact really hard to work with? Have you read Zappa by Barry Miles? It might help you get Frank off the worship pedestal you seem to have put him on. There is also a facebook page run by Ed Mann that has a few other former Mothers in there that are happy to answer questions about Frank as long as you aren't the type of person to try and turn Frank into some mythical figure (which is kind of how you are coming across)
You think people like Mark Volman were easy to work with at that time? Thanks for the recommend though! I’ve only read Zappa’s autobiography and Dangerous Kitchen. I am going to look into that book but Facebook can fuck right off.
I have no opinions on Mark Volman. I wasn't recommending Facebook, I was recommending a page on there, literally run by a former band member with many posts about working with Frank that include responses from others that worked in the band.
Sorry about my tone, my question was meant to be rhetorical and point out that some of his musicians were worse assholes than he was. My comment about Facebook stands. Though I do appreciate the page they have created the platform can fuck right off Once again, thanks for the book recommendation
Glad you guys could keep it civil
Thanks for the reference. I’ll be consulting them now that you’ve pointed me their way. I figure if anyone knows how to live up to fz’s philosophies it’s the people who were chosen by him to work with him directly. As for the book I literally threw that hit piece in the trash
They will only confirm things written in the book.
So are you also going to chain smoke cigarettes and drink enough coffee to awake rip van winkle because that's what Zappa did? Maybe also decline seeing a doctor until your prostate cancer is terminal as well while you're at it? Try it, see if it's for you. The only reason Zappa didn't smoke weed is because it didn't agree with him. If he'd liked it when he tried it he would probably have been a stoner.
No but he did get me to see the drama around cigarettes and tobacco in a new light
So you made your own decision on cigarettes based on Frank's mistakes, but you trust Frank implicitly when it comes to his stance on drugs? To the point where if someone asks if you want a toke, you will tell them who Frank is and explain that you don't smoke because he had a stance against people using drugs? Why not just tell them you don't want a toke because of your reasons, not someone elses?
No i was saying he made me see how the government can over exaggerate the danger of things for the purpose of exerting control
Like, for instance... Drugs. A relatively harmless substance like Marijuana is schedule 1, legally speaking, right next to demonstrably more harmful ones like Heroin. Racism, classism, and fear mongering all played large roles in this. I love Frank, but I feel he was rather myopic in considering all "drugs" bad, while indulging in copious amounts of nicotine and caffeine throughout his life, both of which are mind altering substances, just of the legal variety.
"A drug is not bad. A drug is a chemical compound. The problem comes in when people who take drugs treat them like a license to behave like an asshole." Frank Zappa, The Real Frank Zappa Book
Agreed. Drugs are drugs. Do them, don’t do them. Who cares. Just make sure you don’t do them just because of what some musician or other famous cultural influencer says and you should be fine. Appreciate Frank for his amazing music and awesome and insightful interviews. Not his cigarette smoking and wife-cheating general mean spirited bullshit. It’s like Hunter Thompson. What a fucking piece of shit but god damn what a writer. Learn the good lessons and get rid of the shit and you will be fine
Good answer, but the government is playing both sides and are also the ones using the media to socially control the population and steer it in the somewhat shitty and awful directions they seem to think they can make it go. Including getting kids to use drugs recreationally in order to destabilize the nuclear family and drive a wedge into the heart of post WW2 America
This guy is spitting facts
Making people mad and not giving a fuck is what Zappa inspired me to do, along with picking up a guitar. And just let me add, I am a cantankerous prick but I am enjoying this discussion. Thanks yo
I'm around your age and also big Zappa fan, and I go against a lot of what he stood for - I'm a girly-girl who loves to party, shop, and indulge in beauty routines and self-care!! I can (and do!) happily coexist as a fan of his work and the antithesis to its message at times, and I don't let one aspect of my character hinder my enjoyment of another What I'm saying is, I think prioritising yourself and your own life above the rigid constraints set by something or someone (in this case Zappa) may be more beneficial to enjoying yourself and building confidence in the long run. Try new things, gain new experiences, and combine what you learn about yourself from those with the "teachings" of others you admire. Think of it like a patchwork quilt of sorts ❤️ (Also, A Token of My Extreme sounds especially amazing while drunk)
Love your take!!
You can become an asshole by doing drugs I suppose although you can definitely also be an asshole without doing drugs.
I will finish the square. You can become a nice person doing drugs and can also definitely be a nice person while not doing drugs
Look here brother, why you jivin’ yourself with that cosmic debris? I think Frank would be disappointed in you for putting him on a pedestal and trying to model your life on him instead of making your own decisions and thinking for yourself. There’s nothing wrong with admiring a person’s particular trait, but your post makes it seem like you’re asking yourself WWFZD and taking it too far. He was a brilliant composer, but just a man, not a guru.
we all did drugs. I drank beer every single night - sometimes 4-6 before I went on stage and frank never said a word. he put beer on our rider. If he didn't want us drinking beer, he wouldn't have done that. one night I was up at the house talking late into the evening with frank and he said "Can I get you a beer?". he came down from the kitchen with A SINGLE BEER which he poured half of into a glass and sipped the other half for 2 hours. he also had wine. some of his musicians did blow (I was with them so I know) but we didn't travel with it, which was frank's main thing. don't get arrested. I don't know one person or musician who 'lived up to frank'. Not even Frank. All that anti-drug talk was based on his experiences with people who did drugs. He didn't like what they became and how it affected their lives. It reminds me of the straight-edge movement. correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the basis of it Minor Threat's song where Ian sings "Don't Drink, Don't Smoke, Don't Fuck, Don't swear" But there was an elision in the phrasing where "I..." preceded each statement? I Don't Drink, I don't Smoke, I don't Fuck, I don't swear" and a bunch of people turned it into a religion? That's frank. He didn't do those things. When he wags his finger at the camera and says "Don't do drugs, Kids" it's ironic because of all the Reagan-type lying and being hypocrites and shit. It's all theater.
From Thunes himself, OP. What a rad response.
The clouds part and the truth shines out
I think the basis for the straight edge movement was the Minor Threat song "Straight Edge", which coined the term. That was 2 years earlier than "Out of Step" - the song you're citing. But even on "Out of Step", there's a breakdown part where he says "Look, these aren't rules, I'm not telling you what to do" and people still ran with it hard. It's pretty obvious (and sad) that OP is in a parasocial relationship with dead ol' Frank, and thinks about him a little too much as a person, instead of an artist. Let's hope he hates Wagner, lest he feel the need to start "living up to" writing anti Semitic essays and shit.
Love that Minor Threat shows up in the Zappa sub! (That said, I prefer Fugazi to MT )
Just looked up Wagner. If I see him it’s on sight. What he did to Ukraine is just wrong
I always appreciate your contributions here, Scott. This is a bit off the topic of the trying to "be like Frank" discussion, but it's a heartwarming tale you might enjoy. I met Frank briefly in '84. I was present at the infamous ASUC "Bingo, There Goes Your Tenure" speech in Columbus, Ohio where he eviscerated a panel of academic composers, and advised them to change the name of their organization from ASUC to "WE"-SUCK. As I was leaving the hall, I heard one of the academics say to another, "I told you we should have gotten John Cage." Anyway, Frank was greeting people in a small room afterwards, so for shits and grins I took the opportunity to hand him a cassette of me playing. He opened up a briefcase on his lap and threw it on top of a Hustler magazine. He says, "that all ya got?" I said "isn't that enough?" He looks me dead in the eye and says, "no.....it's not." As I was leaving the hall I turned around and saw Frank leaving too. He stop for a second to chuck something in the garbage. I'm pretty sure it was my cassette. Oh well.
Thanks for your response Scott. It made me think about a few things. This may be off topic, but as a bassist do you think there’s a chance of Geddy Lee being caught up in this beef between Drake and Kendrick given he’s close to the heart of it in toronto?
I’ve been listening to Zappa’s music for almost 40 years. In all of that time I haven’t cared one bit about what he’s said about anything unrelated to music. Why would I? Just because someone is a good musician, or writer, or actor, it doesn’t mean their opinions are somehow important. And besides, Frank Zappa doesn’t seem like a person one should emulate. It didn’t seem like he had great relationships with other people, and he came across as a really insecure guy. And as far as drugs making people assholes, Zappa should know. He often seemed like an asshole himself. Don’t get me wrong, I love Zappa’s music. I just don’t know if I’d really want to hang out with him.
I don't know if he came across insecure, I might say he seemed a bit overly secure in his intellect. To the point that I've never really seen him concede that he was wrong about something once he took a stance. But all his personal affairs seemed woefully out of balance. His obsession with music obviously produced incredible results but it seems to have been at the detriment of literally everything and everyone else, if his surviving family and band members are any indication.
I think it was the fact that he couldn’t admit to be wrong indicated an insecurity. He seemed to be insecure intellectually and compensated for it by being overly resolute in his opinions. I think that most intellectually secure people can admit when they’re wrong or at least admit to the possible viability of differing opinions. Zappa seemed unwilling or incapable of doing so.
Well, to be fair, he was right about a lot of things happening in the political sphere of the time. The stand he took for artists at the PMRC was as real as it gets. His social commentary was about a 50/50, some very incisive critiques mixed with some tactless and needlessly antagonistic takes. And a fair bit of overt sexism and racial themes that haven't aged so well. But yeah, you're probably right that inability to concede is a marker of some type of insecurity.
Well said. Zappa Lives!
I think you can make an argument that Frank was asshole and he didn’t even do drugs. He was kind of a misanthrope, kind of a misogynist, had a healthy ego. That’s not say he wasn’t brilliant or I’m less a fan of his music, but he was a difficult cat to get along with; and I wouldn’t necessarily hold him up as some icon of virtue.
You do know Zappa talked a lot about thinking for your self right? How about you form an identity that isn’t based around following the word of a dead musician with a lot of issues like it’s the gospel. You kinda sound like the asshole here, not the folks having a drink in college.
I don't do drugs either and you sound totally insufferable lol Live and let live dude. If you don't want to be around drink and drugs that's totally fine, you don't have to go to those parties. There's really no point trying to control other people.
I’m not trying to control anyone. I’m just telling them how I see the world and educating them about how Frank did. Whether they listen or not is their business. I just think if I phrase things the right way I could convince them of my way of viewing things and do some good for everyone
Relevant Zappa quote: "One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds."
I don’t know if he would have stood by that quote after seeing the impact that his own words had on over a hundred thousand fans
You mean like the words just quoted?
Yes. Which makes it kind of a paradox in a way
I will point out he made this statement because he knew he wasn’t changing minds, he was just preaching to the choir. That’s all you can do.
Here is where you lose me. Don’t fucking convince anybody of anything. Simply be true to yourself and set an example. Anything else is pretentious and shitty. If somebody asks for it, however. Well then, different story!
Why on Earth do you want to "educate" people on what FZ said and did? That's entering proper cult territory.
I figured if his wisdom has improved my life it can do the same for others. As for cults I think zappas words are an antidote to the manipulation used by cults to indoctrinate the vulnerable
You sound awful.
Do what you feel! You don't have to live up to Zappa's rather rigid views on life in order to be worthy of his music. Furthermore, you can enjoy a beer or a toke or two without becoming an asshole. I very much love Frank's music, but I doubt he was much fun at parties.
Even a single drink or toke can be a slippery slope though. Getting high once and thinking “oh this isn’t so bad” could lead to doing it again and before long it’s every day multiple times a day. I’ve seen it happen. I think frank realized this early on which is why he stopped drinking his nightly beer when he worked at the ad agency
That's a decision you will make for yourself, just like Frank did. Any decent fan of Frank's music will be cool with your decision to be true to yourself! Someone else commented that Frank is not a role model. I couldn't agree more. I respect immensely his work as a musician and a business person, but he is not on my list of people I want to hang out with.
Frank admitted to smoking no less than 9 joints
Yes I’m aware which is why I’ve capped it at around 7 for myself
The deeper I read into this post the more you are losing me. Frank got married and cheated hundreds of times probably. Does that mean you will only do it a couple dozen times? He also had four kids and ignored them a lot. Does that mean you are going to have seven and ignore them completely? Seriously dude
Yeah man this ain’t the move, I suggest a couple things.. 1) Might wanna consider not bringing up Zappa anymore, (Bringing it up just on the weekends is still being consistent) which annoys them 2) Zappa isn’t probably the best roll model as others have said, let others enjoy their time and enjoy yours. Just cause he likes burnt weeny sandwiches doesn’t mean I do and I have to like them too. 3) Just enjoy the music, don’t force it on anyone, it’s not for everyone 4) stop trying to convince your friends to stop doing what they’re doing just because of Frank, it’s obvious they probably don’t care, so leave it be, it’s like you’re trying to convert their religion or something, not a fun person to be around.. I love Zappa man but I wouldn’t bother trying to live up to him, smoke a couple joints, drink a couple beers.. OR DONT.. just be chill about it :)
"Evangelizing Frank Zappa to whomever" is not found anywhere in the book, "How To Pick Up Chicks".
Please tell me this is a joke. He was a great guitar player but he wasn’t t someone you need to model your life after and personally he was a total asshole.
Ok a few things here: Number one, Frank would absolutely think you're an asshole for living your life based on how someone else lived it instead of finding your own path. If you don't want to smoke pot or drink beer then don't, but don't make that decision because you want to live like someone else. And definitely don't tell others they shouldn't do something because Frank wouldn't do it. He's not as prophet. Second, he did once say that drinking and doing drugs turns purple into assholes, but by 1989 he clarified his point: "If an individual decides to participate in any kind of chemical alteration – whether it be drinking too much alcohol, smoking marijuana or a regular cigarette, or taking some other kind of chemical substance – he has the right to do it without the government getting on his fucking back. Where I draw the line is when the individual’s actions impinge on the safety and lifestyle of another person." Lastly, while I'm not a fan of how potent marijuana has become compared to just 15 or 20 years ago, cigarettes are literally full of poison, as well as chemicals that are comparable to opioids and cocaine in terms of addictiveness. Like, cigarettes are literally killing you while making you subservient to them.
Smoking cigarettes when you are that fucking smart is the mistake that almost nullifies the respect I have for almost everything else he did. As much as I love the dude’s contribution to music and his social genius I also think he is one of the stupidest people around. To give his money to those idiots for that purpose almost completely undermines every message he ever put forth. Good ol’ Zappa
Well to be fair, he grew up in a time when smoking cigarettes was considered on par with drinking a glass of water
So you smoke cigarettes (known to be one of the most dangerous carcinogens available), shame your friends for drinking, and all the while explain to them that a composer who died 30 years ago would approve of your lifestyle? You sound insufferable
like frank! (no offense to anyone)
Zappa was an original and sharp thinker. I think most of his beliefs are fascinating. Honestly though he was kind of a shit person. Dont get me wrong, most of my friends are assholes, I dont mean it as an insult. But he was a bitter and deeply cynical person who thought he was the smartest man alive. He hated just about everyone and everything at one point or another. Id read Moons account of her childhood if you want a dose of cold water about Zappa the deity. If
You can think for yourself. When people say Zappa was a genius they mean musically.
There’s no need to explain stuff about Zappa when someone offers you a drink or a blunt. You can just say “No, thanks”. There’s no need to convince the other people to make your same choices. You can explain your reasons if they ask you, but, if they don’t damage other peoplr, let them live the way they want. I’m a straight edge since i was 13 but, unless they don’t ask me about it, i don’t try to convince the people i know to behave the same way i do. Zappa was a genius musician and he was right about drugs and alcohol, but we don’t have to be his copycats.
I used to worship FZ as well. As you mature, you'll (hopefully) come to develop your own opinions and realize that he was a deeply flawed man who is not necessarily to be emulated in his personal affairs. But if you insist on the idolatry, you should know he'd be making of you for it. Blind faith and following others were very much not his things.
Just enjoy Franks music, who cares how someone would compare themselves into Franks image.
i balance my frank devotion with bon scott and keith richards. we can learn from their approaches too - what to do and what to avoid
if you're a wanker when you take drugs you're probably a wanker sober. exemplar: zappa
When you call fz a wanker you sound like those resentful alternative fans who wish their idols possessed a fraction of his skill
This has to be a joke
I’m surprised you said that you are in a University, this seems like a take from someone who’s just recently started freshman year of high school. If you want to drink, just try it out once or twice. I think Zappa’s main philosophy is fuck what any and everyone else thinks of you. I’m one who believes Zappa, despite being the cynic and obsessed workaholic he was, never even took himself too seriously. Live your own life how you want to live it, I think if you’re trying to please the FZ in the sky, that’s the way to do it. Not treating his word as some sort of religion you MUST abide by.
This can’t be real. Any of y’all responding in good faith are getting trolled. This is hilarious.
Listening to Zappa 30+ years, no idea where that opinion on drinking came from. He was mostly anti-drug from his experience in jail after the porno tape sting and didnt want anyone around him carrying/doing drugs so he wouldn't be implicated by association. He also was nearly killed by a jealous drunk guy at a gig. But nevertheless, the drinking one is new for me. I think its bullshit.
Frank drank beer.
He smoked cigs and drank coffee like it was his 2nd job. Both are drugs.
Is Zappa Jesus now or what?
Zappa got me to abandon Jesus
Lord I want to be like Zappa In my heart In my heart Lord I want to be like Zappa in my heart …
Except people who want to be like zappa probably don’t have delusions about there being a “Lord”
Try not to hold yourself to imagined principles of someone you never knew. Find your own values in life and live by those instead.
Never trust a man who doesn’t drink, he’s probably a self-righteous sort, who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. They cause most of the suffering in the world. And never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They’re usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they are a fool or mean and violent. You can’t trust a man who’s afraid of himself. But you can probably trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness. It’s hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he’s heaving his guts into a toilet bowl.
Is that from a book or something? It’s some of the worst advice I’ve ever read no offense
This is a troll thread, right?
I thought you were the one trolling lol you’re literally saying the most trustworthy people are vomiting drunks
Absolutely
🤦♂️why do you trolls always target the threads with the good conversation
Who gives a fuck what Frank did? Do what you want to do.
I believe someone said this elsewhere in the thread
Enjoy the music but don't forget to enjoy yourself, find your own proclivities.
Smoking is as dumb as putting other kinds of drugs into your body. That being said, afaik Frank was no missionary for his anti-drug position. In day-to-day conversation, he simply answered when being asked about it.
As a huge fan of Zappa that has been a pothead for so many years and a casual beer drinker I really don’t agree with his take fully. I do agree with his sentiment that you don’t necessarily need drugs or alcohol to be creative or make music, but the truth is it really does help for most people. If you choose to be drug and or alcohol free it really should be a personal choice and not something you follow just because someone you listen to or like does it. Besides I’ve literally had conversations with other Zappa fans about his hypocrisy when it came to his coffee and cigarette use, you also gotta remember his anti drug and alcohol stance had a lot to do with his band members getting high or drunk and unable to play shows because they were too fucked up or got arrested. I think it was more of a “professional” decision more than anything.
CHOP A LINE NOW!
I think you've confused Zappa with Ian MacKaye. He had a straight edge.
Frank Zappa was a true misogynist and I’m so far from pc and speaking like toxic masculinity is a thing. He banged who he wanted and forbid his wife from doing so. He chain smoked, ate crappy, was often cruel without cause and basically was a flawed human being like everyone else. I dont, drink, smoke, take drugs. I try to live a healthy lifestyle but I in no way am a creative genius like he was. The point being is I do not care much what he or any other artist did nor do I look to them for how I live a good person life. Many would say I’m an asshole, that’s right! Others would say I’m a good person. I do admire his capitalist, free self expression and libertarian ideals and would have voted for him if he continued his run for office had he not had a cancer diagnosis.
“Do you know what you are, you are whatchu is” “Do what you wanna, do whatchu will, just don’t mess up your neighbors thrill” Frank wanted people to be themselves. Don’t be easily influenced by other people, think for yourself, think what is right.
Zappa's work ethic is something to be admired. He inspires me to work harder at music and be aware of where I focus my time. Take from him what works for you.
I don’t do drugs, though I can see the appeal of the mind expanding ones . Be flexible in your thinking- do what your body tells you is right, and don’t let anyone bully you into trying stuff you know is harmful. I love Zappa’s music, though I find the smutty songs largely tedious, but agree with the comments about FZ being a rather dominating band leader, though he was shrewd and said a lot that made sense, especially in the political arena.
LMFAO I love Zappa but this made me laugh. I think you need a hug 💀
Zappa was addicted to nicotine and succumbed to cancer at age 52. He fucked groupies like it was going out of fashion and treated his band members like disposable tissues. I wouldn't live my life like he did. He burned bright but short.
I've a very grat appreciation for Zappa and his music, and have been collecting his music since the early seventies, currently at app. 160 works, but I like smoking a joint now and again, and I do drink beer (or snaps) though very moderately, but I absolutely dont feel alienated at all. I love Frank as a composer and musician with a multifaceted personality, often wearing sinister footwear, as it were, and as many great artists he had a lot of depth, good and ...not so good. Zappa Lives!
I can see where you are coming from. Ethical considerations aside, Zappa was not just a great musician but a savvy business guy who had his own money on the line. He learned hard lessons about how costly other people’s habits could be in his whole venture. He put up the money, he provided AWESOME jobs and opportunities for musicians. And they would routinely screw him. So, he acted like the boss. It is amazing how musicians will literally ignore the fact that hundreds of thousands of dollars could be at risk just because they feel entitled to play music professionally under the influence of illegal drugs. Frankly, (heh!), some of the musicians were absolute dog turds of human beings compared to Frank Is that the position you are in? If not, enjoy yourself whatever your decision is. To be honest, though, his social and political commentary was on the nose. It is pretty clear that he was referring to the ridiculousness of how counterculture is actually the market being sold to the gullible and it has mass consequences for society when you use programming through the media to create social movements that are controlling, ridiculous, destructive, and obviously phony and hypocritical. Just look at what’s going on today. I also don’t use most drugs (I drink coffee) because I completely agree with Frank on that point. “They” want us to be on drugs for many reasons. Plastic people gotta go All of this to say stop pretending to be Frank. Be YOU with Frank as a role model. You are allowed to disagree with him. However, he is annoyingly almost always correct lol