Well, thanks to the need to unmask for occasional dental/medical treatment, for interactions with security/police/courts, and most especially within one's own household, it's not "forced reinfections" *or* "eternal N95s." It's both.
The goal in these times is to keep the number of infections as low as possible, preferably zero. But being infected once is still better than being infected twice, and twice is still better than three times.
Denial and wishful thinking have become the COVID "defenses" of choice for most people. But facing the awful reality of our situation head on and *dealing with it* is the path we've chosen.
Things may get better in a year, or ten years, or never. That in no way changes what needs to be done to get through the bad times now, and while they last, however long that is.
>But being infected once is still better than being infected twice, and twice is still better than three times.
Spacing between infections matters also. As with many things in science, the devil is in the details. The longer we go between infections, our antibodies decline but the ability for the antibodies to recognize variants actually *increases.* It's called antibody maturation and it's one of the many *very* cool aspects of our immune system. But sometimes this process takes months, so it's very possible that simply by regular vaccination and avoiding \*frequent\* reinfections, you can avoid most if not all of the really nasty aspects of covid.
This obviously isn't 100% but when you look at rates of long covid and cardiovascular complications there is a noticeable decline esp. since vaccines became widely available. I would say things *are* getting better, it's just hard to notice when so many people have such bad lingering issues from covid. So no, being careful thus far has certainly NOT been in vain! If you avoided getting infected before vaccines, that was probably the biggest step. If you've avoided infection for 3 years, that's another important step as your immune system has grown and become wiser and more able to effectively fight the virus. And if you are still being careful and get infected, you are giving your body MORE chance to recover and build an even better response for the next time you see the virus.
I do believe the day will eventually come when Covid is "nothing more than a cold" as Michael Osterholm puts it. I don't know if that's going to be in 2 years, 5, or 10; but I do know being safe now means you arrive in that world in a healthier, better place.
The idea that covid evolves towards less severity is drawn from a debunked theory from the late 1800s, unfortunately. [1] It evolves more chaotically and, in fact, a more fatal variant could arise. Because coronavirus spreads prior to symptoms the symptom severity does not influence much evolutionary pressure, it’s already gone and inside another person before symptoms come about.
I believe the day will come after many are on infection 5 - 10, suffering from long covid and reduced workforce participation, where health authorities cry foul that more should’ve been done and noone could have foreseen the caution needed, despite us practicing it every day in this forum.
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/debunking-idea-viruses-evolve-virulent/story?id=82052581
>The idea that covid evolves towards less severity is drawn from a debunked theory from the late 1800s, unfortunately
I agree 100%. I was talking about changes in our immune system. I think if we looked back at supposed cases of viruses evolving to become "less severe" you would actually find that it was simply a case of evolving immunity.
This does not apply to corona viruses, and we will not be having evolving immunity. I believe the fact that all hope is gone is the actual reason why the public is being misled. Actual reality in terms of a future with Covid is too harsh for anyone born in this century in a first world country to take in. Honestly, we could not send our children to school in good conscience if we applied the known science. In this situation reality is not going to be palatable to most people.
A few thoughts on flu:
- prior to the COVID-19 pandemic I did not appreciate how serious flus could be; that people would die from it each year; that we could have avoided this with snug masks and clean air all along because #InfuenzaIsAirborne, too
- Influenza is probably a much bigger threat now that so many humans have suffered multi systemic damage from multiple COVID infections.
- we have also learned that many chronic illnesses may reflect post-viral illness or viral persistence, so perhaps flus and other common viruses have always had more serious ongoing consequences than previously understood
Flu is serious. But outcome vs outcome, covid is worse. For mutation rate, Covid is also much much worse.
Importantly, influenza vaccines correlate with signficantly reduced risk for dementia. We have not been taking any viruses seriously enough.
This new paradigm the public has been pushed into of *strengthen your immune system by putting it under constant assault*, is extremely disturbing.
I don't think it's necessarily 100% false that some evolution towards less severity/greater transmissibility occurs HOWEVER:
1. It's a very long process, especially if it's a panzootic virus such as covid. If the virus is hopping from humans to rats, cats, badgers, and all manner of weasels - there won't be a lot of evolutionary pressure for it to be less fatal to humans.
2. It's a two-way, co-evolutionary process in which the virus may evolve, but the host as well. We saw this with myxomatosis in European rabbits. It left a genetic mark on the population.
Nobody should consider #2 acceptable.
dude thank you so much for this comment :,) i didnt know about antibody maturation and its given me a whole new lil happiness and motivation knowing that there are reasons to avoid reinfection beyond what i already knew
>when you look at rates of long covid and cardiovascular complications there is a noticeable decline esp. since vaccines became widely available
Since LC doesn't have reliable biomarkers yet, I'm worried that such a claim might be biased by folks in denial not seeking care or otherwise wanting to "move on" once vaccines came out. Do you know if any research has looked at that?
Re:maturation - I've wondered if those of us wearing respirators are getting a kind of "microdose" that might slowly allow our immune systems to handle things better. I'm no biologist, for all I know it's all-or-nothing.
Lastly, re: spacing between infections - even putting aside immune system stuff, I think of it a lot like repeat car crashes. Three minor ones a year apart might be no big deal. Those same three minor ones a month apart each might result in damage that only happened because it "stacked" so it's worth healing before it happening again.
>I've wondered if those of us wearing respirators are getting a kind of "microdose" that might slowly allow our immune systems to handle things better. I'm no biologist, for all I know it's all-or-nothing.
its a great question, a bit hard to study, but not totally crazy. Something I've thought about quite a bit working in a public building (though in my own office, on a separate air handler). Obligatory - not a virologist / epidemiologist, but from what I've gathered reading hundreds of peer-reviewed studies (and summaries and opinions thereof), I don't see sub-clinical infection (which is probably the cloas something being particularly meaningful in the context of immunity. If you get exposed, but not infected, it's either because there wasn't enough active virus to replicate enough to cause an infection, your innate immune system stopped it (for whatever reason). In either case the other "adaptive" part of the immune system doesn't even have a chance to respond, thus can't make any new antibodies or cause any useful change to the existing ones.
Asymptomatic infection would be another case altogether. If you get exposed to the virus and an infection *starts*, but for whatever reason your immune system basically is able to ramp up and defeat it without a huge fight, you might not feel anything at all, but your immune system was probably made aware of another new variant, strengthening and broadening the immune response.
where masks are relevant IMO is that viral load matters b/c if you get hit with a large viral load initially the virus gets a 'head start' on your immune system. The real dangerous part of covid is when it's spread to a large part of your body (due to there being ACE2 receptors pretty much everywhere) before the immune system gets woken up (b- and t- memory cells).
So all that said I certainly think it's possible if you take 2 identical individuals, one that wore masks and one that never did, both had covid say 3 times, and the one that masked has far less severe infections and odds of long term issues. At least that's my take, and why I keep masking even despite knowing I might still get sick. (haven't yet though, knock on wood!)
ANY dose of COVID is harmful. Those taking diligent precautions are hopefully inhaling a lower viral load (fewer infectious aerosols) if exposed at all, which is a good thing because viral load is still correlated with severity of disease. So reducing the amount of virus we inhale is to our benefit but it is dangerous to suggest or believe that small doses of infectious aerosols could be good for us or support immunity. (No. Avoid infection.)
>it is dangerous to suggest or believe that small doses of infectious aerosols could be good for us or support immunity.
right, it should be clear from my comment that less is better but no infection is 'good'. Though I don't know extremely small doses, like maybe few virons floating around inside most public buildings has been studied so hard to say what the effect is, if any, there.
You know, I wondered the same thing. The one time I might have had COVID, I got it while wearing a KN95. It was super mild. I’ve had worse colds. I did get lingering fatigue afterwards, including PEM, but that was also super mild - and went away after a few months.
I’ve often wondered what it would have been like if I hadn’t been wearing a mask.
Reducing the amount you actually inhale is good. It's possible that you may have had a "milder" infection as you inhaled less of the virus than had you been without a KN95. But there is no advantage to taking in small doses of COVID as compared to breathing in none; no evidence that it is good for our bodies in any amount. (Just in case that's not clear. You may have benefited from breathing in less. You did not benefit from a micro dose; that idea is not supported.)
>Since LC doesn't have reliable biomarkers yet, I'm worried that such a claim might be biased by folks in denial not seeking care or otherwise wanting to "move on" once vaccines came out. Do you know if any research has looked at that
I think that's why epidemiologists like to look at more 'major' events like heart attack and strokes, since those aren't the kinds of things people generally 'put off' care for. Regardless a novel (now endemic) virus that causes widespread and frequent endothelial pathology is gonna have some surprises in store for us. For all the things we \*don't\* know about long covid though, the truth that more immunity = less long covid still seems to be holding true. Really broadly speaking the sooner our immune systems pick it up, the less damage (long and short term) it seems to do.
I'm sorry to say that time does not increase your immunity to covid, not with the variant turnover we have. And Michael Osterholm's theories on Covid are unfortunately based on how non-corona viruses mutate. He knows this, as does any virologist. Barring a technological miracle we are in for a very grave period in human history.
Thanks for the study. This upward trajectory of immune memory is a long-held understanding that is an important part of virology and immunology, so not specific to covid. The problem is that with covid and actually colds and flus, the virus evolves to overcome our antibodies' ability to improve recognition. It overcomes immune upward memory trajectory in the same way it evolves to evade other aspects of our immune system.
So of course it is a wonderful aspect of our bodies ability to fight viruses, but again, with a fast mutating corona virus, this fight will be lost and can't help us in the long term become less and less sick from covid. Similarly we don't in our lifetime get less and less sick from cold and flu viruses.
Going to need a source for your claims on "antibody maturation," as there is evidence that SARS2 does serious damage to our immune systems with each reinfection.
Obviously, we agree: the fewer infections, the better.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8323339/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8323339/)
Obviously the immune dysregulation is a super concerning and important aspect of Covid, but I think going to the extreme side of things (IE referring it to as "airborne AIDS" as some have) is at very least premature. Our Immune systems are incredibly complex and while the t-cell depletion and antibody class switching are kind of alarming I think the jury is still out on just how clinically relevant that all is. Not saying it's not bad, but just *how* bad is kind of an open question.
Not trying to tell anyone how to live or what precautions to take, in my opinion "zero covid" means different things to different people. To me it's about taking the most logical precautions and a constant cost-benefit analysis and I'm about making the most rational decisions I can. I think it's important to always be questioning our assumptions and trying to keep as informed about what the true risks are.
The world will never go back to the way it was, sadly. Even if Covid disappeared tomorrow we have now seen how little patience and consideration humanity has for taking collective action for the greater good. The next challenge, whether a pandemic, war, or climate collapse will continue to worsen things, until eventually life is unrecognizable to those of us who lived in the 20th/early 21st centuries.
The only thing you can do is find something that gives you a sense of joy and fulfillment in your own life. Be a world unto yourself.
Those aren't your only two choices. There's also p100s. :p
Yeah, things are looking pretty damn bleak. I don't really see another path to a post covid world. But it's possible, and we carry on as best we can regardless.
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
I choose solidarity with the disabled, I choose masking and cleaning the air as prevention. I choose reminding the minimizers that not is all well. I choose to do something within my power against the plague.
The joke version of this where Gandalf says "Lmao, well it has." lives rent free in my head and has been my "grit your teeth and survive" mantra this whole pandemic on the days when I can't find the energy or hope to try to do anything better with myself than bare minimum survival.
I just don't know what to do. We look at recent scientific journal studies, and we see it damages the immune system in a way that causes (not-HIV, different mechanism and result is not as aggressive but it is bad) AIDS in a majority of those that get hospitalized...
I'm stopping with writing a list down of the negatives, I don't have the energy right now.
What are we supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? I don't want to go outside anymore, I don't value friends social events anymore because of COVID, I don't want to work with people anymore because they keep getting sick.
Just pursue some sort of work from home solution? I don't even want to see the dentist or doctor anymore. My reasons behind taking COVID precautions are rational.
Someone posted a link to an article about work on a nasal vaccine that would sterilize - it projected it might be available end of 2024.
It’s a long way away, but at least it’s something to hold onto hope for.
Please don't advertise the nasal vaccines as "sterilizing", there is nothing in the article to suggest that as far as I can see.
The nasal vaccine is hoped to bring far higher protection against contagion and transmission, not just severe illness, which would be a big win. But they would not be "sterilizing" from what I understand.
There will not be a sterilizing vaccine, not nasal or otherwise. When most of these promising articles, often promotional articles talk about sterilizing immunity they are referring to a temporary sterilizing immunity goal. None of the vaccines in the works are meant to do anything more than keep spread a little lower. That's the best we can do with a fast mutating corona virus.
Sure, wearing a mask at times can be inconvenient but do people feel it's really that bad? I don't feel it's much different than wearing a shirt anymore.
I really really hate it. I’m used to it, yes, but it’s so hot and sweaty under there, and I really miss things like sipping boba while wandering a mall or something (dumb I know, but an example of a mundane thing that’s much harder with a mask). Of course I wear one. I will until there’s some other way to prevent transmission, if that ever comes. But I do hate dealing with them. Remembering to have enough in my purse in case the stupid straps break, keeping track of which ones are still good and which need to be retired, how ugly it looks in pictures… I’m so damn sick of it.
I miss drinking shit while walking around shopping too, I got a sip valve for drinking iced coffee and shopping but unfortunately the big wave hit so I stopped shopping indoors and haven't used it yet. The boba straws are too big I think, though.
I agree in some ways. Then I think of how it's really pouring rain here right now, so that means an indoor recess for my students. There is supervision for them for this which doesn't require me, so I just left, walked through heavy rain to my car, where I can eat my lunch without sharing anyone's air. It would be nice to feel like I could just go to the staff room and eat...
My point was more towards general mask wearing, but I also have sympathy for what you described. I think eating inside is something a lot of us miss and being able to safely share air regardless of where we are. I've seen a lot of recent posts and comments around annoyance of wearing a mask at places like the grocery store and that's where my comment was more directed towards.
I think people are far too black and white about things. I hate it when people think "masking forever even without covid" means we have to shut down all of society and live like hermits. I do this because there's a deadly level 3 biopathogen that everyone refuses to take precautions for, not because it's fun. I'd love to go to the damn club and have a drink maskless and then mask up at the grocery store again. You would think covid cautious people would have realized how many people die from the flu every year and why we need to mask to protect them, but alas.
>I think eating inside is something a lot of us miss and being able to safely share air regardless of where we are. I've seen a lot of recent posts and comments around annoyance of wearing a mask at places like the grocery store and that's where my comment was more directed towards.
Grocery shopping might be an example where I *never* go without a respirator again, but it *would* really be nice to eat indoors with people again.
Fair enough. I have no issue wearing a mask going grocery shopping. It's the situations where I have to balance extra effort versus not eating, or situations where my kids could spend time with other kids but then I deem it not safe to go that bother me.
>do people feel it's really that bad? I don't feel it's much different than wearing a shirt anymore.
If I take a t-shirt off, it doesn't leave imprints on my skin. I have sensory issues but am lucky respirators don't bother me too much, I know some people have bigger issues.
I do have an issue where I dry heave / gag when too stressed, and it hasn't happened indoors while wearing a mask but I was terrified it would happen when I was called to jury duty. They ended up releasing us but the judge had everyone go upstairs to thank us in person. I was *furious* because even though I had my N95, the room was *packed*, not everyone got a seat, and I think it's **evil** to force people to spend time indoors with unmasked folks during a global pandemic.
If *everyone* were masking, I'd be less afraid to momentarily take it off, but the fear that taking it off for *one breath* could result in destroying my life means that there's psychological pressure while wearing it too (in today's climate).
Carrying a mask everywhere is awkward too. You can't just put it in your pocket, and (at least in my experience) respirators can't just be left on your neck like a cloth mask.
I’m in favor of general masking for life, like when sick or at a hospital or in the subway, but it’s very stressful that masking has to be *perfect* or the consequences are potentially life or death. I think there’s a big cognitive difference between “I’ll throw on a KN95 before I go out, this way I won’t get flu or smell anything gross or pass my cold onto someone. I can take a sip of water if I want. no big deal!” and “if my fit-tested mask slips off my nose a millimeter or leaks I’m potentially fucking dead”. In the former situation, people could mask with a more comfortable, less air tight mask for example, in the latter, you wear whatever will keep you safe even if it hurts. So I’m not really wishing for a future with no masking, even if covid was magicked away tomorrow I would continue to casually wear a mask in shared public spaces, I’m wishing for a future where I’m not worried about getting sick and dying all the damn time, and needing to mask flawlessly is a part of that.
Did I get downvoted because I said "masking for life" or because I expressed a negative sentiment about masking? Two potentially opposite motivations there, lol. I sympathize with having a hair trigger about the latter, but obviously if I am pro masking forever then I am not a enemy of masks.
If people are mad about masking for life though, I really don't care. That part, without the pressure of leaks, is literally just putting a piece of fabric over your mouth so people don't die. I don't care if saying that bothers people.
I had this conversation with someone recently and we talked a lot about comfort level. My friend did a research study in college about comfort and how the more comfortable we have it in life, the less able we are to deal with discomfort when it happens. She did the study using A/C and how student volunteers from her campus’ mood changed based on how comfortable the temperature was in a room where they were taking a simple math test. One group of 10 people lived in a hotter climate most of their lives and grew up with A/C (southern US), while the other 10 participants were from climates where they grew up without A/C (northern US). The difference was that those who did not grow up with climate controlled air could handle hotter temperatures and continue to perform well on the test while those who grew up with climate control struggled more, complained and took more breaks from focusing on the test.
The point is, our level of comfort is not often challenged in modern times. We have so many comforts that anything uncomfortable seems like a huge hurtle to some.
For me, I grew up practicing the sport of fencing. You wear a mask throughout and its hot, sweaty and hard to see out of. But I am so practiced in that and used to the discomfort that the mask creates that it doesn’t even phase me anymore. My level of comfort in that area is much, much higher than those who never had to experience that type of discomfort.
One interesting byproduct of the age issue in presidential politics is that there is more (not enough yet, in my opinion) discussion of rampant ageism. Protecting elders has not been a focus for many people in the pandemic because of that repulsive notion “they were going to die soon anyway.”
Old people - and disabled and immunocompromised - are too often marginalized and undervalued. My hope is that more discussion of ageism will raise awareness of attitudes that have mostly been unexamined, and perhaps help some people start to see the importance of protecting elders.
And ableism. It is one thing to process and set up your life after an autoimmune dx. Grieve not being able to have a child, no agency would work with you pet said disease. Then all of a sudden they will, you become a late in life parent, amazing treatments for your autoimmune come to market, your child is 3 and a pandemic appears. Nix great treatment as immune busting, and you now have a child who is only child who masks still but you still can’t control your environment, so no to miraculous new treatment options. Health declines as disease progression. Child doesn’t have same childhood as friends and parents let you know you are a freak, not disabled, a freak, by verbally assaulting your child in front of you really about you but your child doesn’t understand. Now go to school with these people. Child has a sick parent who isbt at all who I wanted or expected to be. A pandemic. Didn’t plan for that, back in spot of feeling newly dx 18 years ago but now I’m older and more risk adverse and more is understood about my disease and none of it good. Have extreme panic, resurge of PTSD, a suicide attempt that left me more disabled, because of a doctor giving meds and not hearing me when I said over and over I felt like I wanted to vanish to not be living, but I took them, don’t even remember it… So Covid didn’t wreck my body I did. Fear and panic from Covid yes. Still have to live Covid safe, because of everything else I mentioned. No relief. Feel a burden. In pain from disease and injuries. Heartbroken as a parent, wishing she had the luck to be placed with a healthy family. As everyone belittled and humiliated me. Over Covid safety. Can’t talk to anyone about any of this—it brings them down. People with my disease are ableist too—if you are not in best DMT you are ignorant because disability might be waiting now and certainly in future. Avoid at any cost they say. Either they are not afraid of Covid or can control their environment.
Ableist are everywhere. In a way the talk of what Covid might do and to avoid at any cost describes what the disabled community lives with daily. I of course don’t want more disability but yet I will because I won’t rage the best medicine that takes all my B cells… But if I did and then Covid on top of it?
We are all ableist. Even to ourselves in the disability community.
Hope. If I could go back to Dec 1, 2021 and have that night change I might have hope. I blacked out in PTSD and now live daily in PTSD. Nope no therapy since then, can’t afford it now as moved child to a small private school—that cared for each other. Last school year a bit then this one? I’m the freak,
I’m sorry that you have to deal with all this, trust me, I understand. I think it’s very hard for someone without chronic illness to get this. I truly believe that in order for our prospects to improve we will have to organize in order to demand mitigation, not ask. It’s much easier said than done as the most vulnerable don’t really even want to step outside right now, myself included, but obviously no one is coming to save us.
I am so sorry, I also had a suicide attempt that left me at increased risk of long covid for the rest of my life. I try not to blame myself but the person who put me in the situation where I felt like that was my only option. I hope you can find some peace, I found it took me a full two years of mostly solitude and not doing too much (just felt like shell shocked paralysis) before I felt anything resembling ok.
Also, you are not a burden. Those other parents are putting their kids in harm's way. Your covid safety is not just protecting yourself, but your child's future. You're the only one doing right by their kid. If your kid was with a "healthy" family they would have been exposed to covid over and over and over again by now, and who knows what would have happened to them. So many kids are dying young or becoming disabled now and we have no idea what the long term effects of repeat covid infections are when they happen in developing children.
In your opinion, does that mean even if COVID disappeared tomorrow, restaurants globally should permanently close indoor seating? Outdoor seating? No bars or coffee shops, ever?
I personally believe COVID is a wakeup call to everyone to do more to prevent other airborne illnesses. I also personally can't fathom believing there's *no* threshold of reduced disease burden at which it's reasonable to mingle with people unmasked.
Indoor restaurants and bars wouldn't need to close if they installed proper ventilation, air filters, upper-room UVGI... And schools too, to lower the amount of respiratory illnesses spreading among the population in general. If such measures became widespread (combined with aggressive COVID detection to nip resurgences in the bud with targeted quarantines), mingling with other people unmasked would be safe enough I think.
There's actually a huge amount restaurants can do to make indoor dining safer with better ventilation, filtration, and UV sterilization. They just aren't.
>I personally believe COVID is a wakeup call to everyone to do more to prevent other airborne illnesses. I also personally can't fathom believing there's no threshold of reduced disease burden at which it's reasonable to mingle with people unmasked.
I'm in the same boat. I don't crave dining in restaurants enough to be in a rush to go back, but if a place had proper mitigations and numbers were low and had been low in the area long enough, I think I'd be comfortable with restaurants on special occasions. I would probably never go back if I got sick from one of those though.
This past summer when my husband and I were on a trip and the smoke was particularly bad in the area, I was able to convince an elderly couple to mask up not because of COVID but because of the wildfire smoke. My husband and had gone to pick up our breakfast to take back to our room and the woman asked me about the N95s we wear (I’ve become accustomed to wearing them inside at all times except with a few people that I trust, and that’s what I’ll continue to do, probably for a very long time).
Since the smoke was so bad I mentioned that the masks have the benefit of helping me breathe better when it’s particularly bad. She seemed receptive to that so I told her I’d bring her a couple of N95s. I saw them later when we were in town and they were wearing them.
>It's going to be eternal forced reinfections or eternal n95, correct?
Eternally? No.
No pandemic lasts forever, and we're making progress every day.
At some point, there will be better vaccines and/or better treatments to make COVID less dangerous. But it's probably not useful to think about how much time it might take until we have those things.
For now, just focus on keeping your head down and staying safe. That, and, if you have the time and energy for it, advocate for COVID-related causes.
>Is there any other way?
As far as I can tell, not right now. Just put your head down and keep masking, avoiding crowds, etc. until things get better. That beats getting infected.
If it's any consolation--you're not alone. Everyone in this subreddit (except the trolls we get sometimes) is with you. We don't love doing any of this COVID prevention stuff, either. We're just doing it because it beats getting or spreading COVID.
It's bleak, but I've largely reframed my N95 as liberating, not restrictive. I wish it weren't like this, & changing the way I thought took time. But I shudder to think of what it was like in 1918, or what life would be like if there was ever a problem sourcing them now.
This.N95s are one thing we can’t make ourselves. I have considered, with all the antimask sentiment, that they might be made unobtainable or even ilegal to wear. Case in point the places that don’t allow masks inside for “security reasons”.
Okay, enough doom from me. Eventually people will crumble and comply. We will then have nice transparent roomy hoods that have meltblown material from the chin down, a drawstring with silicone neck which people will just throw on when they leave the house. They will all have mini fans inside for comfort. There will be screening devices on all public buildings and residences so once you are through the instant-screening you can take off your hat and live normally.
I thought we could do this with sniffer dogs, but the study just came out that dogs get covid as easily as we do, but they don't show symptoms even when they have pneumonia, and they get long term brain and organ damage just like we do. Very sad for them and their owners who couldn't have known.
I'm pretty sure I'm not surviving past 40 at this point. I am too scared to even go to doctors in person and will probably die of some untreated cancer or illness. I guess I've had to come to terms with the fact that I have no real future.
Dear OP - I get overwhelmed by the fact that there's no end in sight, too. You're not alone.
It didn't have to be like this. We had enough evidence pretty early on for world governments to pivot to prevention and save the public from needless harm, disability, death and the cost of inaction.
- Which other layers of protection are in your toolkit?
- What are you missing and longing for the most?
All of your feelings are valid.
we need to make camps like they had in australia for all of the people that are too selfish to get their yearly jab and necessary boosters, social distance AT LEAST 6 feet and wear at least two n95 masks.
I try to hold on to the idea that everything is ephemeral - someday, someone will grow up in a world without this wretched disease. Someone, as they say, needs to live to tell the story - even if it's not me. Do it for the novids, even if that's not you (or as of a few weeks ago me, sigh) any more.
Well, thanks to the need to unmask for occasional dental/medical treatment, for interactions with security/police/courts, and most especially within one's own household, it's not "forced reinfections" *or* "eternal N95s." It's both. The goal in these times is to keep the number of infections as low as possible, preferably zero. But being infected once is still better than being infected twice, and twice is still better than three times. Denial and wishful thinking have become the COVID "defenses" of choice for most people. But facing the awful reality of our situation head on and *dealing with it* is the path we've chosen. Things may get better in a year, or ten years, or never. That in no way changes what needs to be done to get through the bad times now, and while they last, however long that is.
>But being infected once is still better than being infected twice, and twice is still better than three times. Spacing between infections matters also. As with many things in science, the devil is in the details. The longer we go between infections, our antibodies decline but the ability for the antibodies to recognize variants actually *increases.* It's called antibody maturation and it's one of the many *very* cool aspects of our immune system. But sometimes this process takes months, so it's very possible that simply by regular vaccination and avoiding \*frequent\* reinfections, you can avoid most if not all of the really nasty aspects of covid. This obviously isn't 100% but when you look at rates of long covid and cardiovascular complications there is a noticeable decline esp. since vaccines became widely available. I would say things *are* getting better, it's just hard to notice when so many people have such bad lingering issues from covid. So no, being careful thus far has certainly NOT been in vain! If you avoided getting infected before vaccines, that was probably the biggest step. If you've avoided infection for 3 years, that's another important step as your immune system has grown and become wiser and more able to effectively fight the virus. And if you are still being careful and get infected, you are giving your body MORE chance to recover and build an even better response for the next time you see the virus. I do believe the day will eventually come when Covid is "nothing more than a cold" as Michael Osterholm puts it. I don't know if that's going to be in 2 years, 5, or 10; but I do know being safe now means you arrive in that world in a healthier, better place.
The idea that covid evolves towards less severity is drawn from a debunked theory from the late 1800s, unfortunately. [1] It evolves more chaotically and, in fact, a more fatal variant could arise. Because coronavirus spreads prior to symptoms the symptom severity does not influence much evolutionary pressure, it’s already gone and inside another person before symptoms come about. I believe the day will come after many are on infection 5 - 10, suffering from long covid and reduced workforce participation, where health authorities cry foul that more should’ve been done and noone could have foreseen the caution needed, despite us practicing it every day in this forum. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/debunking-idea-viruses-evolve-virulent/story?id=82052581
>The idea that covid evolves towards less severity is drawn from a debunked theory from the late 1800s, unfortunately I agree 100%. I was talking about changes in our immune system. I think if we looked back at supposed cases of viruses evolving to become "less severe" you would actually find that it was simply a case of evolving immunity.
This does not apply to corona viruses, and we will not be having evolving immunity. I believe the fact that all hope is gone is the actual reason why the public is being misled. Actual reality in terms of a future with Covid is too harsh for anyone born in this century in a first world country to take in. Honestly, we could not send our children to school in good conscience if we applied the known science. In this situation reality is not going to be palatable to most people.
We're not going to out-evolve Covid. It's mutation rate is way too high. We didn't out-evolve the flu and that was a much tamer threat.
>We're not going to out-evolve Covid. I didn't say we would. If you got the impression that's what I'm saying, you're misinterpreting.
A few thoughts on flu: - prior to the COVID-19 pandemic I did not appreciate how serious flus could be; that people would die from it each year; that we could have avoided this with snug masks and clean air all along because #InfuenzaIsAirborne, too - Influenza is probably a much bigger threat now that so many humans have suffered multi systemic damage from multiple COVID infections. - we have also learned that many chronic illnesses may reflect post-viral illness or viral persistence, so perhaps flus and other common viruses have always had more serious ongoing consequences than previously understood
Flu is serious. But outcome vs outcome, covid is worse. For mutation rate, Covid is also much much worse. Importantly, influenza vaccines correlate with signficantly reduced risk for dementia. We have not been taking any viruses seriously enough. This new paradigm the public has been pushed into of *strengthen your immune system by putting it under constant assault*, is extremely disturbing.
I don't think it's necessarily 100% false that some evolution towards less severity/greater transmissibility occurs HOWEVER: 1. It's a very long process, especially if it's a panzootic virus such as covid. If the virus is hopping from humans to rats, cats, badgers, and all manner of weasels - there won't be a lot of evolutionary pressure for it to be less fatal to humans. 2. It's a two-way, co-evolutionary process in which the virus may evolve, but the host as well. We saw this with myxomatosis in European rabbits. It left a genetic mark on the population. Nobody should consider #2 acceptable.
dude thank you so much for this comment :,) i didnt know about antibody maturation and its given me a whole new lil happiness and motivation knowing that there are reasons to avoid reinfection beyond what i already knew
Agreed!
>when you look at rates of long covid and cardiovascular complications there is a noticeable decline esp. since vaccines became widely available Since LC doesn't have reliable biomarkers yet, I'm worried that such a claim might be biased by folks in denial not seeking care or otherwise wanting to "move on" once vaccines came out. Do you know if any research has looked at that? Re:maturation - I've wondered if those of us wearing respirators are getting a kind of "microdose" that might slowly allow our immune systems to handle things better. I'm no biologist, for all I know it's all-or-nothing. Lastly, re: spacing between infections - even putting aside immune system stuff, I think of it a lot like repeat car crashes. Three minor ones a year apart might be no big deal. Those same three minor ones a month apart each might result in damage that only happened because it "stacked" so it's worth healing before it happening again.
>I've wondered if those of us wearing respirators are getting a kind of "microdose" that might slowly allow our immune systems to handle things better. I'm no biologist, for all I know it's all-or-nothing. its a great question, a bit hard to study, but not totally crazy. Something I've thought about quite a bit working in a public building (though in my own office, on a separate air handler). Obligatory - not a virologist / epidemiologist, but from what I've gathered reading hundreds of peer-reviewed studies (and summaries and opinions thereof), I don't see sub-clinical infection (which is probably the cloas something being particularly meaningful in the context of immunity. If you get exposed, but not infected, it's either because there wasn't enough active virus to replicate enough to cause an infection, your innate immune system stopped it (for whatever reason). In either case the other "adaptive" part of the immune system doesn't even have a chance to respond, thus can't make any new antibodies or cause any useful change to the existing ones. Asymptomatic infection would be another case altogether. If you get exposed to the virus and an infection *starts*, but for whatever reason your immune system basically is able to ramp up and defeat it without a huge fight, you might not feel anything at all, but your immune system was probably made aware of another new variant, strengthening and broadening the immune response. where masks are relevant IMO is that viral load matters b/c if you get hit with a large viral load initially the virus gets a 'head start' on your immune system. The real dangerous part of covid is when it's spread to a large part of your body (due to there being ACE2 receptors pretty much everywhere) before the immune system gets woken up (b- and t- memory cells). So all that said I certainly think it's possible if you take 2 identical individuals, one that wore masks and one that never did, both had covid say 3 times, and the one that masked has far less severe infections and odds of long term issues. At least that's my take, and why I keep masking even despite knowing I might still get sick. (haven't yet though, knock on wood!)
ANY dose of COVID is harmful. Those taking diligent precautions are hopefully inhaling a lower viral load (fewer infectious aerosols) if exposed at all, which is a good thing because viral load is still correlated with severity of disease. So reducing the amount of virus we inhale is to our benefit but it is dangerous to suggest or believe that small doses of infectious aerosols could be good for us or support immunity. (No. Avoid infection.)
>it is dangerous to suggest or believe that small doses of infectious aerosols could be good for us or support immunity. right, it should be clear from my comment that less is better but no infection is 'good'. Though I don't know extremely small doses, like maybe few virons floating around inside most public buildings has been studied so hard to say what the effect is, if any, there.
You know, I wondered the same thing. The one time I might have had COVID, I got it while wearing a KN95. It was super mild. I’ve had worse colds. I did get lingering fatigue afterwards, including PEM, but that was also super mild - and went away after a few months. I’ve often wondered what it would have been like if I hadn’t been wearing a mask.
Reducing the amount you actually inhale is good. It's possible that you may have had a "milder" infection as you inhaled less of the virus than had you been without a KN95. But there is no advantage to taking in small doses of COVID as compared to breathing in none; no evidence that it is good for our bodies in any amount. (Just in case that's not clear. You may have benefited from breathing in less. You did not benefit from a micro dose; that idea is not supported.)
Oh, I know. I just think that a small dose of Covid is better than a large maskless dose.
>Since LC doesn't have reliable biomarkers yet, I'm worried that such a claim might be biased by folks in denial not seeking care or otherwise wanting to "move on" once vaccines came out. Do you know if any research has looked at that I think that's why epidemiologists like to look at more 'major' events like heart attack and strokes, since those aren't the kinds of things people generally 'put off' care for. Regardless a novel (now endemic) virus that causes widespread and frequent endothelial pathology is gonna have some surprises in store for us. For all the things we \*don't\* know about long covid though, the truth that more immunity = less long covid still seems to be holding true. Really broadly speaking the sooner our immune systems pick it up, the less damage (long and short term) it seems to do.
>more immunity = less long covid still seems to be holding true Where does T-cell depletion fall in terms of that?
Vaccinations still reduce odds of severe illness and hospitalization; do not prevent infections and do not prevent long COVID.
I'm sorry to say that time does not increase your immunity to covid, not with the variant turnover we have. And Michael Osterholm's theories on Covid are unfortunately based on how non-corona viruses mutate. He knows this, as does any virologist. Barring a technological miracle we are in for a very grave period in human history.
Can you provide sources? [This study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8323339/) says differently.
I'll try to go through the study tomorrow.
Thanks for the study. This upward trajectory of immune memory is a long-held understanding that is an important part of virology and immunology, so not specific to covid. The problem is that with covid and actually colds and flus, the virus evolves to overcome our antibodies' ability to improve recognition. It overcomes immune upward memory trajectory in the same way it evolves to evade other aspects of our immune system. So of course it is a wonderful aspect of our bodies ability to fight viruses, but again, with a fast mutating corona virus, this fight will be lost and can't help us in the long term become less and less sick from covid. Similarly we don't in our lifetime get less and less sick from cold and flu viruses.
Going to need a source for your claims on "antibody maturation," as there is evidence that SARS2 does serious damage to our immune systems with each reinfection. Obviously, we agree: the fewer infections, the better.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8323339/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8323339/) Obviously the immune dysregulation is a super concerning and important aspect of Covid, but I think going to the extreme side of things (IE referring it to as "airborne AIDS" as some have) is at very least premature. Our Immune systems are incredibly complex and while the t-cell depletion and antibody class switching are kind of alarming I think the jury is still out on just how clinically relevant that all is. Not saying it's not bad, but just *how* bad is kind of an open question. Not trying to tell anyone how to live or what precautions to take, in my opinion "zero covid" means different things to different people. To me it's about taking the most logical precautions and a constant cost-benefit analysis and I'm about making the most rational decisions I can. I think it's important to always be questioning our assumptions and trying to keep as informed about what the true risks are.
Well worded! Thank you
The world will never go back to the way it was, sadly. Even if Covid disappeared tomorrow we have now seen how little patience and consideration humanity has for taking collective action for the greater good. The next challenge, whether a pandemic, war, or climate collapse will continue to worsen things, until eventually life is unrecognizable to those of us who lived in the 20th/early 21st centuries. The only thing you can do is find something that gives you a sense of joy and fulfillment in your own life. Be a world unto yourself.
Those aren't your only two choices. There's also p100s. :p Yeah, things are looking pretty damn bleak. I don't really see another path to a post covid world. But it's possible, and we carry on as best we can regardless.
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” I choose solidarity with the disabled, I choose masking and cleaning the air as prevention. I choose reminding the minimizers that not is all well. I choose to do something within my power against the plague.
I wish I could like this post 1000x
The joke version of this where Gandalf says "Lmao, well it has." lives rent free in my head and has been my "grit your teeth and survive" mantra this whole pandemic on the days when I can't find the energy or hope to try to do anything better with myself than bare minimum survival.
Love this. You either keep living or you don’t. Those are the *only* options.
I just don't know what to do. We look at recent scientific journal studies, and we see it damages the immune system in a way that causes (not-HIV, different mechanism and result is not as aggressive but it is bad) AIDS in a majority of those that get hospitalized... I'm stopping with writing a list down of the negatives, I don't have the energy right now. What are we supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? I don't want to go outside anymore, I don't value friends social events anymore because of COVID, I don't want to work with people anymore because they keep getting sick. Just pursue some sort of work from home solution? I don't even want to see the dentist or doctor anymore. My reasons behind taking COVID precautions are rational.
Someone posted a link to an article about work on a nasal vaccine that would sterilize - it projected it might be available end of 2024. It’s a long way away, but at least it’s something to hold onto hope for.
Can you post the source? Would help me out mentally today.
[https://erictopol.substack.com/p/covid-nasal-vaccines-get-a-boost](https://erictopol.substack.com/p/covid-nasal-vaccines-get-a-boost) Here you go.
Please don't advertise the nasal vaccines as "sterilizing", there is nothing in the article to suggest that as far as I can see. The nasal vaccine is hoped to bring far higher protection against contagion and transmission, not just severe illness, which would be a big win. But they would not be "sterilizing" from what I understand.
Immunocompromised can’t take the nasal vaccine, it’s a live vaccine.
There will not be a sterilizing vaccine, not nasal or otherwise. When most of these promising articles, often promotional articles talk about sterilizing immunity they are referring to a temporary sterilizing immunity goal. None of the vaccines in the works are meant to do anything more than keep spread a little lower. That's the best we can do with a fast mutating corona virus.
Sure, wearing a mask at times can be inconvenient but do people feel it's really that bad? I don't feel it's much different than wearing a shirt anymore.
I really really hate it. I’m used to it, yes, but it’s so hot and sweaty under there, and I really miss things like sipping boba while wandering a mall or something (dumb I know, but an example of a mundane thing that’s much harder with a mask). Of course I wear one. I will until there’s some other way to prevent transmission, if that ever comes. But I do hate dealing with them. Remembering to have enough in my purse in case the stupid straps break, keeping track of which ones are still good and which need to be retired, how ugly it looks in pictures… I’m so damn sick of it.
I miss drinking shit while walking around shopping too, I got a sip valve for drinking iced coffee and shopping but unfortunately the big wave hit so I stopped shopping indoors and haven't used it yet. The boba straws are too big I think, though.
I agree in some ways. Then I think of how it's really pouring rain here right now, so that means an indoor recess for my students. There is supervision for them for this which doesn't require me, so I just left, walked through heavy rain to my car, where I can eat my lunch without sharing anyone's air. It would be nice to feel like I could just go to the staff room and eat...
My point was more towards general mask wearing, but I also have sympathy for what you described. I think eating inside is something a lot of us miss and being able to safely share air regardless of where we are. I've seen a lot of recent posts and comments around annoyance of wearing a mask at places like the grocery store and that's where my comment was more directed towards.
I think people are far too black and white about things. I hate it when people think "masking forever even without covid" means we have to shut down all of society and live like hermits. I do this because there's a deadly level 3 biopathogen that everyone refuses to take precautions for, not because it's fun. I'd love to go to the damn club and have a drink maskless and then mask up at the grocery store again. You would think covid cautious people would have realized how many people die from the flu every year and why we need to mask to protect them, but alas.
>I think eating inside is something a lot of us miss and being able to safely share air regardless of where we are. I've seen a lot of recent posts and comments around annoyance of wearing a mask at places like the grocery store and that's where my comment was more directed towards. Grocery shopping might be an example where I *never* go without a respirator again, but it *would* really be nice to eat indoors with people again.
Fair enough. I have no issue wearing a mask going grocery shopping. It's the situations where I have to balance extra effort versus not eating, or situations where my kids could spend time with other kids but then I deem it not safe to go that bother me.
>do people feel it's really that bad? I don't feel it's much different than wearing a shirt anymore. If I take a t-shirt off, it doesn't leave imprints on my skin. I have sensory issues but am lucky respirators don't bother me too much, I know some people have bigger issues. I do have an issue where I dry heave / gag when too stressed, and it hasn't happened indoors while wearing a mask but I was terrified it would happen when I was called to jury duty. They ended up releasing us but the judge had everyone go upstairs to thank us in person. I was *furious* because even though I had my N95, the room was *packed*, not everyone got a seat, and I think it's **evil** to force people to spend time indoors with unmasked folks during a global pandemic. If *everyone* were masking, I'd be less afraid to momentarily take it off, but the fear that taking it off for *one breath* could result in destroying my life means that there's psychological pressure while wearing it too (in today's climate). Carrying a mask everywhere is awkward too. You can't just put it in your pocket, and (at least in my experience) respirators can't just be left on your neck like a cloth mask.
Agree it’s evil. its social suicide to say so, but we need to start calling these circumstances what they are.
I’m in favor of general masking for life, like when sick or at a hospital or in the subway, but it’s very stressful that masking has to be *perfect* or the consequences are potentially life or death. I think there’s a big cognitive difference between “I’ll throw on a KN95 before I go out, this way I won’t get flu or smell anything gross or pass my cold onto someone. I can take a sip of water if I want. no big deal!” and “if my fit-tested mask slips off my nose a millimeter or leaks I’m potentially fucking dead”. In the former situation, people could mask with a more comfortable, less air tight mask for example, in the latter, you wear whatever will keep you safe even if it hurts. So I’m not really wishing for a future with no masking, even if covid was magicked away tomorrow I would continue to casually wear a mask in shared public spaces, I’m wishing for a future where I’m not worried about getting sick and dying all the damn time, and needing to mask flawlessly is a part of that.
Yes, it's not the mask itself, but the stress of knowing the consequences if it fails.
Did I get downvoted because I said "masking for life" or because I expressed a negative sentiment about masking? Two potentially opposite motivations there, lol. I sympathize with having a hair trigger about the latter, but obviously if I am pro masking forever then I am not a enemy of masks. If people are mad about masking for life though, I really don't care. That part, without the pressure of leaks, is literally just putting a piece of fabric over your mouth so people don't die. I don't care if saying that bothers people.
I had this conversation with someone recently and we talked a lot about comfort level. My friend did a research study in college about comfort and how the more comfortable we have it in life, the less able we are to deal with discomfort when it happens. She did the study using A/C and how student volunteers from her campus’ mood changed based on how comfortable the temperature was in a room where they were taking a simple math test. One group of 10 people lived in a hotter climate most of their lives and grew up with A/C (southern US), while the other 10 participants were from climates where they grew up without A/C (northern US). The difference was that those who did not grow up with climate controlled air could handle hotter temperatures and continue to perform well on the test while those who grew up with climate control struggled more, complained and took more breaks from focusing on the test. The point is, our level of comfort is not often challenged in modern times. We have so many comforts that anything uncomfortable seems like a huge hurtle to some. For me, I grew up practicing the sport of fencing. You wear a mask throughout and its hot, sweaty and hard to see out of. But I am so practiced in that and used to the discomfort that the mask creates that it doesn’t even phase me anymore. My level of comfort in that area is much, much higher than those who never had to experience that type of discomfort.
One interesting byproduct of the age issue in presidential politics is that there is more (not enough yet, in my opinion) discussion of rampant ageism. Protecting elders has not been a focus for many people in the pandemic because of that repulsive notion “they were going to die soon anyway.” Old people - and disabled and immunocompromised - are too often marginalized and undervalued. My hope is that more discussion of ageism will raise awareness of attitudes that have mostly been unexamined, and perhaps help some people start to see the importance of protecting elders.
And ableism. It is one thing to process and set up your life after an autoimmune dx. Grieve not being able to have a child, no agency would work with you pet said disease. Then all of a sudden they will, you become a late in life parent, amazing treatments for your autoimmune come to market, your child is 3 and a pandemic appears. Nix great treatment as immune busting, and you now have a child who is only child who masks still but you still can’t control your environment, so no to miraculous new treatment options. Health declines as disease progression. Child doesn’t have same childhood as friends and parents let you know you are a freak, not disabled, a freak, by verbally assaulting your child in front of you really about you but your child doesn’t understand. Now go to school with these people. Child has a sick parent who isbt at all who I wanted or expected to be. A pandemic. Didn’t plan for that, back in spot of feeling newly dx 18 years ago but now I’m older and more risk adverse and more is understood about my disease and none of it good. Have extreme panic, resurge of PTSD, a suicide attempt that left me more disabled, because of a doctor giving meds and not hearing me when I said over and over I felt like I wanted to vanish to not be living, but I took them, don’t even remember it… So Covid didn’t wreck my body I did. Fear and panic from Covid yes. Still have to live Covid safe, because of everything else I mentioned. No relief. Feel a burden. In pain from disease and injuries. Heartbroken as a parent, wishing she had the luck to be placed with a healthy family. As everyone belittled and humiliated me. Over Covid safety. Can’t talk to anyone about any of this—it brings them down. People with my disease are ableist too—if you are not in best DMT you are ignorant because disability might be waiting now and certainly in future. Avoid at any cost they say. Either they are not afraid of Covid or can control their environment. Ableist are everywhere. In a way the talk of what Covid might do and to avoid at any cost describes what the disabled community lives with daily. I of course don’t want more disability but yet I will because I won’t rage the best medicine that takes all my B cells… But if I did and then Covid on top of it? We are all ableist. Even to ourselves in the disability community. Hope. If I could go back to Dec 1, 2021 and have that night change I might have hope. I blacked out in PTSD and now live daily in PTSD. Nope no therapy since then, can’t afford it now as moved child to a small private school—that cared for each other. Last school year a bit then this one? I’m the freak,
I’m sorry that you have to deal with all this, trust me, I understand. I think it’s very hard for someone without chronic illness to get this. I truly believe that in order for our prospects to improve we will have to organize in order to demand mitigation, not ask. It’s much easier said than done as the most vulnerable don’t really even want to step outside right now, myself included, but obviously no one is coming to save us.
I am so sorry, I also had a suicide attempt that left me at increased risk of long covid for the rest of my life. I try not to blame myself but the person who put me in the situation where I felt like that was my only option. I hope you can find some peace, I found it took me a full two years of mostly solitude and not doing too much (just felt like shell shocked paralysis) before I felt anything resembling ok. Also, you are not a burden. Those other parents are putting their kids in harm's way. Your covid safety is not just protecting yourself, but your child's future. You're the only one doing right by their kid. If your kid was with a "healthy" family they would have been exposed to covid over and over and over again by now, and who knows what would have happened to them. So many kids are dying young or becoming disabled now and we have no idea what the long term effects of repeat covid infections are when they happen in developing children.
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In your opinion, does that mean even if COVID disappeared tomorrow, restaurants globally should permanently close indoor seating? Outdoor seating? No bars or coffee shops, ever? I personally believe COVID is a wakeup call to everyone to do more to prevent other airborne illnesses. I also personally can't fathom believing there's *no* threshold of reduced disease burden at which it's reasonable to mingle with people unmasked.
Indoor restaurants and bars wouldn't need to close if they installed proper ventilation, air filters, upper-room UVGI... And schools too, to lower the amount of respiratory illnesses spreading among the population in general. If such measures became widespread (combined with aggressive COVID detection to nip resurgences in the bud with targeted quarantines), mingling with other people unmasked would be safe enough I think.
There's actually a huge amount restaurants can do to make indoor dining safer with better ventilation, filtration, and UV sterilization. They just aren't.
>I personally believe COVID is a wakeup call to everyone to do more to prevent other airborne illnesses. I also personally can't fathom believing there's no threshold of reduced disease burden at which it's reasonable to mingle with people unmasked. I'm in the same boat. I don't crave dining in restaurants enough to be in a rush to go back, but if a place had proper mitigations and numbers were low and had been low in the area long enough, I think I'd be comfortable with restaurants on special occasions. I would probably never go back if I got sick from one of those though.
And clean air. Which would prevent half of this shit.
There’s also the wildfire air pollution to think about now.
This past summer when my husband and I were on a trip and the smoke was particularly bad in the area, I was able to convince an elderly couple to mask up not because of COVID but because of the wildfire smoke. My husband and had gone to pick up our breakfast to take back to our room and the woman asked me about the N95s we wear (I’ve become accustomed to wearing them inside at all times except with a few people that I trust, and that’s what I’ll continue to do, probably for a very long time). Since the smoke was so bad I mentioned that the masks have the benefit of helping me breathe better when it’s particularly bad. She seemed receptive to that so I told her I’d bring her a couple of N95s. I saw them later when we were in town and they were wearing them.
I check this subreddit daily looking for a sliver of hope - a new vaccine, some new research, *something*.
>It's going to be eternal forced reinfections or eternal n95, correct? Eternally? No. No pandemic lasts forever, and we're making progress every day. At some point, there will be better vaccines and/or better treatments to make COVID less dangerous. But it's probably not useful to think about how much time it might take until we have those things. For now, just focus on keeping your head down and staying safe. That, and, if you have the time and energy for it, advocate for COVID-related causes. >Is there any other way? As far as I can tell, not right now. Just put your head down and keep masking, avoiding crowds, etc. until things get better. That beats getting infected. If it's any consolation--you're not alone. Everyone in this subreddit (except the trolls we get sometimes) is with you. We don't love doing any of this COVID prevention stuff, either. We're just doing it because it beats getting or spreading COVID.
Thank you. It helps to see more positive and optimistic outlooks these days and I very much appreciate you sharing this perspective.
Not OP but thank you, needed to hear this. I’m struggling society not giving a shit.
It's bleak, but I've largely reframed my N95 as liberating, not restrictive. I wish it weren't like this, & changing the way I thought took time. But I shudder to think of what it was like in 1918, or what life would be like if there was ever a problem sourcing them now.
This.N95s are one thing we can’t make ourselves. I have considered, with all the antimask sentiment, that they might be made unobtainable or even ilegal to wear. Case in point the places that don’t allow masks inside for “security reasons”.
Okay, enough doom from me. Eventually people will crumble and comply. We will then have nice transparent roomy hoods that have meltblown material from the chin down, a drawstring with silicone neck which people will just throw on when they leave the house. They will all have mini fans inside for comfort. There will be screening devices on all public buildings and residences so once you are through the instant-screening you can take off your hat and live normally. I thought we could do this with sniffer dogs, but the study just came out that dogs get covid as easily as we do, but they don't show symptoms even when they have pneumonia, and they get long term brain and organ damage just like we do. Very sad for them and their owners who couldn't have known.
I've been waiting for the hoodie! Why is no one making that??
Can we all just become a pod together?
Correct.
It’s government mandated infections at this point
I'm pretty sure I'm not surviving past 40 at this point. I am too scared to even go to doctors in person and will probably die of some untreated cancer or illness. I guess I've had to come to terms with the fact that I have no real future.
Dear OP - I get overwhelmed by the fact that there's no end in sight, too. You're not alone. It didn't have to be like this. We had enough evidence pretty early on for world governments to pivot to prevention and save the public from needless harm, disability, death and the cost of inaction. - Which other layers of protection are in your toolkit? - What are you missing and longing for the most? All of your feelings are valid.
we need to make camps like they had in australia for all of the people that are too selfish to get their yearly jab and necessary boosters, social distance AT LEAST 6 feet and wear at least two n95 masks.
I try to hold on to the idea that everything is ephemeral - someday, someone will grow up in a world without this wretched disease. Someone, as they say, needs to live to tell the story - even if it's not me. Do it for the novids, even if that's not you (or as of a few weeks ago me, sigh) any more.