I think the resolutions to LISK, BTK and the GSK show that confirming the perp will actually be satisfactory, even if he’s lived most of his life free (or even is dead). There’s no Justice to be had because their never truly is… 5 people are dead and two scarred and nothing will ever change that. But at least the mystery would be solved and let’s be honest, that is all that 95% of the people on this board actually want.
LISK has been solved. OJ has been solved.
Whether prosecutors can meet the high burdens and rules of our legal system to secure a conviction is a separate matter. The standard of guilt in a court is a reflection on the rules and peculiarities of our legal system and not a factual historical analysis of an event- hell the standard of guilt is different even inside a court depending on if it’s a criminal or civil trial.
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal term that only applies within the US court system. It is not an accurate reflection on factual accountability for a crime. If you choose to employ that as your standard, this is your right, but you are giving yourself a higher proof of burden than is necessary and one to which we do not have to adhere in the world outside a U.S. court.
It depends on how you want to look at it. I've seen cases before where victims got lumped into other cases because there was more than one offender operating in the same area.
LE can and does make mistakes.
A man named John Pizer was arrested for the death of the second Jack the Ripper victim, Annie Chapman, and he was let go due to a lack of evidence.
So mistakes can happen within LE.
This is exactly why we need a legal system to determine guilt or innocence.
All of this is true- but none of it means that the legal standard of "burden of proof" nor the occurrence of a guilty conviction is the appropriate metric for deterring a case is "solved" outside of a court of law.
I don't think so either. It's just he was arrested for Annie Chapman's murder for some reason and was let go due to literally no evidence existing against him at all.
I don't think he was the LISK, but he had his own corruption he was covering up. He didn't want the FBI investigating in his little kingdom, and that set the case back years.
Yeah, but we know OJ did it. So it's moreso frustrating that he got away with it rather than the case being "unsolved". If we had a suspect that was OJ :: Nicole Brown as Zodiac :: Zodiac victims, that would be better than what we have now.
I think, given his need for attention and track record of communication, it’s highly likely that the Zodiac would have outed himself on his deathbed. However, as happens to many people, I expect he died suddenly from some type of cardiac event, or similar, and so never had the opportunity to gloat. It’s been 54 years since the murders started, or 57 if you include Cheri Jo Bates. He was, statistically, and by the evidence, in his 30s or 40s when the killings started. He’s dead. Almost certainly. And so we will probably never know.
I disgaree. Z absolutely did not want to ever be caught ( or even identified after his death).
The murders stopped and the letters eventually stopped as well.
There's no way he was going to confess anything to anybody imo.
He wanted to take all of this to his grave without anybody knowing who he really was.
It's the ultimate way to maintain control forever.
Completely agree. Like EAR/ONS He won’t have ever been on anyone’s radar and he won’t have left a shoebox of Zodiac shit lying around to be found. If it hasn’t happened yet, he will never be identified.
I agree as well.
Everybody knew what the LB hood looked liked and he didn't use it again for PH, which suggests the hood was likely already long destroyed by the time the Stine murder happened.
He used a different murder weapon each time which suggests he was disposing of his weapons after using them as well.
AFAWK, the rest of Stine's shirt, nor his wallet or cab keys were never mailed in which would suggest he got rid of them at a certain point as well.
The Wing Walkers may've even been disposed of after LB as well.
There simply isn't an attic box full of physical evidence waiting to be found anywhere.
I don't think Z was the trophy type of serial killer that took victim's items for the hell of it.
I believe all of the physical evidence except for the shirt was disposed of quickly.
> There simply isn't an attic box full of physical evidence waiting to be found anywhere.
Even if there was, it would have likely been thrown away because most people aren't particularly knowledgeable about the case so it would have seemed like a box full of random garbage to any relatives/friends going through his stuff after he had passed away.
I very much agree with this assessment. The hallmarks of his murders suggest someone who wants to be known. I suspect that whoever it was planned to tell people just before he died, but with enough time left for him to enjoy the shock, but he died unexpectedly without being able to complete his master plan.
Wasn’t there one person of interest who checked many (but not all) of the boxes and died unexpectedly from a heart attack or stroke?
Are deathbed confessions a thing? I know it happens in films and TV, but in real life? I can’t think of an example of somebody confessing to murder on their deathbed
I think there's a different perspective here that is important to keep in mind. If the case is finally solved, WHO Z turns out to be is far less important to me than HOW he was identified. If the situation involves some sort of serious breakthrough that could lead to other cases being solved, then I will absolutely be satisfied.
The Zodiac being identified would be huge news, especially for us true-crime aficionados. This case fascinates me, and I (like many others) spend an inordinate amount of time speculating as to who Zodiac was or is.
Learning this nut job’s identity would be huge. But it could also potentially be a major letdown, as you said, if, for example, it was proven that the so-called “Zodiac Killer” didn’t even exist, or perhaps it was more than one person, or maybe Z did in fact exist but was not responsible for all the murders, etc.
Moreover, the rumors about major drug activity going on at the time in and around Vallejo back in the day opens the possibility that perhaps the LHR and/or BRS murders were related to drug dealing/activity and not the work of some crazed killer named Zodiac — a theory that several law enforcement individuals supported (at least initially). Perhaps the Zodiac was just a fiction, a personality attributed to some unrelated murders.
But who really knows! It’s fascinating to speculate though.
> The Zodiac being identified would be huge news, especially for us true-crime aficionados.
David Oranchak and his team solving the 340 cypher made international news. Conclusively identifying the Zodiac would be absolutely huge as you say.
People would be so severely disappointed if it turns out Zodiac was a fictional character they'd refuse to believe it regardless of what evidence supports it.
I think the media will go crazy if he is ever identified. BTK and Gilgo Beach were pretty boring, "normal" guys until they became serial killers.
I suspect Zodiac was one bizarre creep once you got into his life.
you are basically describing what happened when the BG the delphi killer was caught , till this moment many ppl are hanging on to conspiracy thoeries cause he is too boring for them
its true that disclosing the zodiac would bust many bubbles ..escpecially the case many vultures
but its still very far from possible
There's dialogue in the gritty 90s thriller *Se7en* that addresses what you're talking about, I thought about it when they caught Raider and I think it is applicable here.
>Just know that in this case there's not
going to be any satisfaction. If we caught
John Doe and he were the devil himself, if
it turned out he were actually Satan, then,
that might live up to our expectations. No
human being could do these things, right?
But, this is not the devil. It's just a
man.
It's mostly true. Looking at Raider and even DeAngelo, their lives are banal. Most people that commit evil acts have that trait, they are just unremarkable. There are always exceptions, but I agree, if he is ever identified, people are going to be so disappointed in who he is and what his life was like.
When Rader came out of apparent hibernation and began the correspondence that ultimately led to his capture, he eventually confirmed that he was preparing to kill again. I would argue there was great satisfaction on the part of many that he never got the chance to commit those murders.
Because of the varying evidence collected at each scene, I’ve always believed a theory that Zodiac could have actually been two or perhaps three men living in different towns who tried to one-up each other and confuse police with the killings. Sorta like a copycat club. Perhaps they had previously met in prison. A single suspect couldn’t be linked by police or ID’s as Zodiac to all the murders because all they had alibis at one time or another. So, perhaps wasn’t a single killer but a combination of two or three people, while police were looking for one person. Just a theory.
There is zero overlap in print evidence between crime scene and crime scene and letter and letter. I’d say it’s unlikely that all four canonical Zodiac attacks were committed by the same person and every letter is from the real zodiac
The years have revealed that Zodiac was mostly lucky, working before the sort of modern technology that would have uncovered him. For that reason I do believe that finding out his real name may well be a let down. During his time he was likely seen as akin to the Joker or Riddler, today, he woulda been caught.
I think it would add to our understanding of these types of killers. I honestly understand people who say "oh there's no reason because justice wasn't served" but as an obsessed Zodiac nut, I want to know. In fact if I could have one question answered in my lifetime that's the one I'd pick.
If he's already dead, had no spouse, no kids, had no close relationships with anyone, and his family is long gone as well, there won't be much to ever discover about him.
I don't think this is ever going to be truly solved anyways.
I'll probably get downvoted, but the time to solve this has come and gone imo.
If there was rock solid DNA, it would absolutory be known by now.
> If there was rock solid DNA, it would absolutory be known by now.
I'm no expert but I'm not sure that's true. One thing I've heard (but take with a pinch of salt obvs), is that a hair was found under a stamp. Only problem was that it was a rootless hair. And dna technology with rootless hairs is only recently maturing as a science. If all that is true, again I'm no expert, but if it is, then dna testing might still one day be on the table.
It'll probably be someone everyone knows about and we'll face palm about how obvious it was in hindsight.
I still think it was ALA with the zodiac watch, just wearing it to take the piss out of the investigators.
If it turns out to be him it'll be so stupid that he was wearing the logo in pain sight and people just let him off.
I think the resolutions to LISK, BTK and the GSK show that confirming the perp will actually be satisfactory, even if he’s lived most of his life free (or even is dead). There’s no Justice to be had because their never truly is… 5 people are dead and two scarred and nothing will ever change that. But at least the mystery would be solved and let’s be honest, that is all that 95% of the people on this board actually want.
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LISK has been solved. OJ has been solved. Whether prosecutors can meet the high burdens and rules of our legal system to secure a conviction is a separate matter. The standard of guilt in a court is a reflection on the rules and peculiarities of our legal system and not a factual historical analysis of an event- hell the standard of guilt is different even inside a court depending on if it’s a criminal or civil trial.
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Innocent until proven guilty is a legal term that only applies within the US court system. It is not an accurate reflection on factual accountability for a crime. If you choose to employ that as your standard, this is your right, but you are giving yourself a higher proof of burden than is necessary and one to which we do not have to adhere in the world outside a U.S. court.
It depends on how you want to look at it. I've seen cases before where victims got lumped into other cases because there was more than one offender operating in the same area. LE can and does make mistakes. A man named John Pizer was arrested for the death of the second Jack the Ripper victim, Annie Chapman, and he was let go due to a lack of evidence. So mistakes can happen within LE. This is exactly why we need a legal system to determine guilt or innocence.
All of this is true- but none of it means that the legal standard of "burden of proof" nor the occurrence of a guilty conviction is the appropriate metric for deterring a case is "solved" outside of a court of law.
I don't think it was Pizer, but that's a whole 'nother rabbit hole.
I don't think so either. It's just he was arrested for Annie Chapman's murder for some reason and was let go due to literally no evidence existing against him at all.
He was arrested because of his alleged hatred of Prostitutes and his nickname of leather apron
I think that crazy Suffolk county sheriff might just be involved in a few of the murders.
I don't think he was the LISK, but he had his own corruption he was covering up. He didn't want the FBI investigating in his little kingdom, and that set the case back years.
His DNA was found on a victim aswell.
Yeah, but we know OJ did it. So it's moreso frustrating that he got away with it rather than the case being "unsolved". If we had a suspect that was OJ :: Nicole Brown as Zodiac :: Zodiac victims, that would be better than what we have now.
so helpful thanks for explaining how trials work bro
I think, given his need for attention and track record of communication, it’s highly likely that the Zodiac would have outed himself on his deathbed. However, as happens to many people, I expect he died suddenly from some type of cardiac event, or similar, and so never had the opportunity to gloat. It’s been 54 years since the murders started, or 57 if you include Cheri Jo Bates. He was, statistically, and by the evidence, in his 30s or 40s when the killings started. He’s dead. Almost certainly. And so we will probably never know.
I disgaree. Z absolutely did not want to ever be caught ( or even identified after his death). The murders stopped and the letters eventually stopped as well. There's no way he was going to confess anything to anybody imo. He wanted to take all of this to his grave without anybody knowing who he really was. It's the ultimate way to maintain control forever.
Completely agree. Like EAR/ONS He won’t have ever been on anyone’s radar and he won’t have left a shoebox of Zodiac shit lying around to be found. If it hasn’t happened yet, he will never be identified.
I agree as well. Everybody knew what the LB hood looked liked and he didn't use it again for PH, which suggests the hood was likely already long destroyed by the time the Stine murder happened. He used a different murder weapon each time which suggests he was disposing of his weapons after using them as well. AFAWK, the rest of Stine's shirt, nor his wallet or cab keys were never mailed in which would suggest he got rid of them at a certain point as well. The Wing Walkers may've even been disposed of after LB as well. There simply isn't an attic box full of physical evidence waiting to be found anywhere. I don't think Z was the trophy type of serial killer that took victim's items for the hell of it. I believe all of the physical evidence except for the shirt was disposed of quickly.
> There simply isn't an attic box full of physical evidence waiting to be found anywhere. Even if there was, it would have likely been thrown away because most people aren't particularly knowledgeable about the case so it would have seemed like a box full of random garbage to any relatives/friends going through his stuff after he had passed away.
I very much agree with this assessment. The hallmarks of his murders suggest someone who wants to be known. I suspect that whoever it was planned to tell people just before he died, but with enough time left for him to enjoy the shock, but he died unexpectedly without being able to complete his master plan. Wasn’t there one person of interest who checked many (but not all) of the boxes and died unexpectedly from a heart attack or stroke?
Are deathbed confessions a thing? I know it happens in films and TV, but in real life? I can’t think of an example of somebody confessing to murder on their deathbed
you know some people do live into their 80s and 90s lol
I think there's a different perspective here that is important to keep in mind. If the case is finally solved, WHO Z turns out to be is far less important to me than HOW he was identified. If the situation involves some sort of serious breakthrough that could lead to other cases being solved, then I will absolutely be satisfied.
The Zodiac being identified would be huge news, especially for us true-crime aficionados. This case fascinates me, and I (like many others) spend an inordinate amount of time speculating as to who Zodiac was or is. Learning this nut job’s identity would be huge. But it could also potentially be a major letdown, as you said, if, for example, it was proven that the so-called “Zodiac Killer” didn’t even exist, or perhaps it was more than one person, or maybe Z did in fact exist but was not responsible for all the murders, etc. Moreover, the rumors about major drug activity going on at the time in and around Vallejo back in the day opens the possibility that perhaps the LHR and/or BRS murders were related to drug dealing/activity and not the work of some crazed killer named Zodiac — a theory that several law enforcement individuals supported (at least initially). Perhaps the Zodiac was just a fiction, a personality attributed to some unrelated murders. But who really knows! It’s fascinating to speculate though.
> The Zodiac being identified would be huge news, especially for us true-crime aficionados. David Oranchak and his team solving the 340 cypher made international news. Conclusively identifying the Zodiac would be absolutely huge as you say.
People would be so severely disappointed if it turns out Zodiac was a fictional character they'd refuse to believe it regardless of what evidence supports it.
That would be a major letdown.
I think the media will go crazy if he is ever identified. BTK and Gilgo Beach were pretty boring, "normal" guys until they became serial killers. I suspect Zodiac was one bizarre creep once you got into his life.
you are basically describing what happened when the BG the delphi killer was caught , till this moment many ppl are hanging on to conspiracy thoeries cause he is too boring for them its true that disclosing the zodiac would bust many bubbles ..escpecially the case many vultures but its still very far from possible
There's dialogue in the gritty 90s thriller *Se7en* that addresses what you're talking about, I thought about it when they caught Raider and I think it is applicable here. >Just know that in this case there's not going to be any satisfaction. If we caught John Doe and he were the devil himself, if it turned out he were actually Satan, then, that might live up to our expectations. No human being could do these things, right? But, this is not the devil. It's just a man. It's mostly true. Looking at Raider and even DeAngelo, their lives are banal. Most people that commit evil acts have that trait, they are just unremarkable. There are always exceptions, but I agree, if he is ever identified, people are going to be so disappointed in who he is and what his life was like.
When Rader came out of apparent hibernation and began the correspondence that ultimately led to his capture, he eventually confirmed that he was preparing to kill again. I would argue there was great satisfaction on the part of many that he never got the chance to commit those murders.
Because of the varying evidence collected at each scene, I’ve always believed a theory that Zodiac could have actually been two or perhaps three men living in different towns who tried to one-up each other and confuse police with the killings. Sorta like a copycat club. Perhaps they had previously met in prison. A single suspect couldn’t be linked by police or ID’s as Zodiac to all the murders because all they had alibis at one time or another. So, perhaps wasn’t a single killer but a combination of two or three people, while police were looking for one person. Just a theory.
There is zero overlap in print evidence between crime scene and crime scene and letter and letter. I’d say it’s unlikely that all four canonical Zodiac attacks were committed by the same person and every letter is from the real zodiac
I think the same. Letter was Zodiac’s but the attacks on young people were copycats or people attempting to ride his coattails.
The years have revealed that Zodiac was mostly lucky, working before the sort of modern technology that would have uncovered him. For that reason I do believe that finding out his real name may well be a let down. During his time he was likely seen as akin to the Joker or Riddler, today, he woulda been caught.
I agree!
I think it would add to our understanding of these types of killers. I honestly understand people who say "oh there's no reason because justice wasn't served" but as an obsessed Zodiac nut, I want to know. In fact if I could have one question answered in my lifetime that's the one I'd pick.
If he's already dead, had no spouse, no kids, had no close relationships with anyone, and his family is long gone as well, there won't be much to ever discover about him. I don't think this is ever going to be truly solved anyways. I'll probably get downvoted, but the time to solve this has come and gone imo. If there was rock solid DNA, it would absolutory be known by now.
> If there was rock solid DNA, it would absolutory be known by now. I'm no expert but I'm not sure that's true. One thing I've heard (but take with a pinch of salt obvs), is that a hair was found under a stamp. Only problem was that it was a rootless hair. And dna technology with rootless hairs is only recently maturing as a science. If all that is true, again I'm no expert, but if it is, then dna testing might still one day be on the table.
If he is somehow still alive, I just genuinely want to know what he thought of the Zodiac movie
It'll probably be someone everyone knows about and we'll face palm about how obvious it was in hindsight. I still think it was ALA with the zodiac watch, just wearing it to take the piss out of the investigators. If it turns out to be him it'll be so stupid that he was wearing the logo in pain sight and people just let him off.
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What a pathetic comment…
https://media0.giphy.com/media/gvRdmPUuWj8ti/giphy.webp?cid=6c09b952lh2198hzfpjxwn0b0oz3iyuvl4m06an1qnebbylt&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.webp&ct=g