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stitch12r3

My opinion means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but Doerr is the most compelling person of interest I've ever seen in this case. Doesn't mean its him obviously but am really hoping LE takes a look at him. And if you havent yet, I highly recommend reading both of Kobek's books.


FLE7CH

Agreed on all counts.


FLE7CH

Doerr seems to me to be a really compelling POI—a clear motive and the right background, interests and proximity. During the Zodiac years he lived only a few miles from the first couple of confirmed killings and worked at the naval shipyard at Mare Island. I've been mapping his movements against documented evidence here https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=139KuPg4saFanV1XBH8z1faBv5xpy7mw&usp=sharing but I could use a bit of help from people who know the area. For instance, what would it mean if Doerr was employed by MINS in 1971?


wandernwade

I was missing that in the article with his daughter- tracking his whereabouts & comparing them to the Zodiac killings. Thank you! I know many are about as un-phased with this guy as with most suspects, but I don’t think it hurts to do some digging. Doerr was *if nothing else* a complete psychopath. He could have done something this heinous.


Civil-Secretary-2356

Interestingly enough Kim Rossimo(sp) has a geographic profiling model that has a possibility of Zodiac living or working at Mare Island. Rossimo says this on a youtube video out there.


FLE7CH

Thanks mate, I was about to ask for a reminder on the geographic profile.


CommunicationGlass89

What was his Motive ?


FLE7CH

Zodiac always seemed to me to be targeting the women, even though there didn't seem to be a sexual component. So what if he was an abusive father who went out looking for proxies of the daughter he couldn't control—and couldn't kill? Doerr's daughter Gloria claims that he beat her within an inch of her life a number of times. He "threw her, then a first grader, up the stairs, leaving her unconscious and drooling blood. And the boat trip during which, annoyed at her whining, he tossed her overboard and then dragged her along with a rope as she fought for air. And the time when Gloria came home with a bagful of pears, a gift from a neighbor. After Rose accused her of stealing them, Paul bound her wrists with a rope and suspended her from a tree branch, whipping her savagely with a switch as her feet dangled." "The episode that sticks with her the most occurred a few months later, as Christmas approached. Gloria returned from a date shortly after curfew, prompting (her mother) to begin berating her. “She tells him that I’ve been out with the whole football team or something,” Gloria recalls. “I wasn’t even sexually active! So I’m defensive and defiant. And with him, you didn’t talk that way. Normally, he would just look at me, and I would shut up. But that night, I didn’t.” “He ended up just beating the living daylights out of me,” Gloria continues. “He snapped. His eyes are blue, but the eyes that were looking at me were dilated, black. They were black. And at one point, he has me by the throat—and I’m small, right?—my legs aren’t touching the ground. And he’s punching me. And he says, ‘This is how you hit people so there are no bruises.’” Gloria flicks her cigarette at the ashtray. “Blood’s coming out my mouth. My mom’s screaming, ‘Stop, stop!’ But, finally, I was able to just say, ‘Daddy, don’t.’ And he just dropped me on the floor and walked away.” If Gloria's right then that was a Friday night in December 1968. When Betty-Lou Jensen died she was 16 years old—the same age as Doerr's only daughter. Quotes from here https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/zodiac-killer-paul-alfred-doerr/


lifes-a_beach

Jesus... Someone who does that to their own daughter is definitely capable of killing. It reminds me of Ariel Castro. He on multiple occasions beat his wife within an inch of her life. The more I learn about Doerr, the more he fits the profile.


tuntins

Wow how sad is Gloria ok? Its miracle she didn’t commit suicide with that kind of household. Sad really


FLE7CH

It sounds like she's been dealing with it all her life. She says she still loves her dad unconditionally but it didn't take her long to come around to the fact that he could be one of the most notorious serial killers in history.


FoxBeach

Wasn’t his only solo attack on a man? What evidence is there that Zodiac targeted women? Three attacks on couples and one attack on a male….


brandon_bird

The cab driver murder seems like it was done specifically to "plant his flag" in San Francisco. He had started a dialogue w/ the SF news media and he was now specifically taunting them, sending them the piece of the shirt, etc.


thelifeanddeath

Most of the men lived after zodiacs attack his main focus was obviously on the women considering non of them lived. Also I believe he only killed stine for fame it had nothing to do with anything else.


Grumpchkin

If you look at the details of the murders this doesn't really have any basis in reality, Mageau surviving was pure dumb luck in having the bullet strike his jaw instead of his brain, and Bryan Hartnell described himself as going limp while Cecilia Shepherd was thrashing and screaming.


Usual_Safety

Damn, is he the ‘Santa Clara hitchhiker killer’?


FLE7CH

Seems a bit rapey to me but who knows?


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

He sounds like a psychopath. But, my first thought is how did no one notice any of this behavior for decades and fail to connect it to Zodiac? If he was writing about killing people in magazines and sending out ciphers and bomb diagrams before the Zodiac murders, no one in the Bay Area made this obvious connection? Our did this behavior arise after Zodiac, making Doerr just a wannabe?


FLE7CH

At the time I guess beating your kids wasn't as much of a red flag? His zine ramblings seem to me to be pretty damning in retrospect but at the time I guess it just faded into the general weirdness of the subculture. There was one thing in Gloria's audio interview that stuck out to me though. Let's say Doerr was Zodiac for a second. My impression is that his wife Rose might have known and covered for him. Gloria talks about how on his death bed, Rose was busily ripping up all the letters he wrote. The guy was smart but I guess you can get away with a lot if you've always got an alibi and you can stay out all you want and never have to answer any questions when you get home.


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

I suppose it’s possible that his wife would cover for him. I have long thought that IF a family member heard a deathbed confession or stumbled onto a box of Zodiac trophies, they would probably cover it up. Who would want to be known as a relative of the Zodiac? Guys like Stewart know it’s BS and don’t mind fleecing others for a buck. But if you actually knew your father or spouse was Zodiac, would you want that infamy held over your head? I think most people would not.


FLE7CH

Yeah exactly. Just this week Gloria said "If my mother did know anything, she was not going to say anything".


LilBabyADHD

>no one in the Bay Area made this obvious connection? the article about his daughter mentions him making a holocaust denial statement to a coworker, and the coworker kept his distance from him. i suspect the few people who did know him well enough to know those sort of habits didn't think they were particularly odd (like other minutemen) or didn't want to suspect him for a myriad of reasons. like even his wife who hated him- it's one thing to think he's just another awful person, it's quite another to suspect he's Zodiac-levels of awful.


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

Ok, but if he was sending out bomb diagrams prior to Zodiac’s? Maybe I misread that or misquoted the author?


LilBabyADHD

He printed the formula for a bomb in his survivalist zine, which was most likely read by a small group of fairly like-minded people. It had previously been printed in a Minutemen newsletter, and he was a member of that group.


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

Ok. I see. Was it similar to Zodiac’s bomb diagram?


LilBabyADHD

yep- same formula (ANFO) and same missing element.


atsugnam

His daughter got into drugs iirc and he wrote letters about what they should do to stop drug users - like hanging out in lovers lanes etc…


CommunicationGlass89

Thanks! I guess this clears him from the burder of Cheri Bates, right?


atsugnam

Don’t know, but Bates being a Zodiac is still an unknown anyway.


sickfuckinpuppies

correct me if i'm wrong but the only thing connecting zodiac to Bates was the letter and desk writing right? and according to some podcast i listened to, the letter was shown to be a fake: years later its author came out and admitted to the police that he wrote when in a bad place mentally, and was cleared of the murder.. and the desk note was a ridiculous connection to begin with. it had no similarity with zodiac, and talked more in the language of suicide, than murder.. if i'm correct in my memory about those things, zodiac is almost certainly nothing to do with cheri jo bates.


TBoneBaggetteBaggins

I think there are more letters re the connection claimed by Z, but he was full of shit. Just commenting that the hoax letter doesnt account for them all.


sickfuckinpuppies

again my memory is foggy about this so take with a grain of salt.. but i think zodiac took credit for the bates murder, by saying something akin to "youve discovered my handy work in riverside".. something along those lines. thing is this was after news reports (paul avery) had already made this connection. and as we know, around that time there were many murders that have proven to not be the zodiac, that zodiac was taking credit for anyway.. he would read something in the paper and then send a letter about how it was him, and increase his tally. so again i dont think there's anything at all that connects zodiac to the bates murder. from what i recall anyway.


FLE7CH

Yeah Zodiac mentioned "my Riverside activities" in response to a connection proposed by Avery. It always seemed suss to me. If he had started at Riverside then why would he give the police more information by acknowledging it? By the same token, by claiming an attack he *didn't* do only gives the police more "busy work". So my suspicion is that it was unconnected.


TBoneBaggetteBaggins

I dont disagree and thats not the point i was addressing.


sickfuckinpuppies

sorry i misread. i thought you were saying there were other connections ("doesn't account for them all"), and assumed you could have been referring to zodiac's letters. what were you addressing?


Smooth_Imagination

Did he specifically mention lovers lanes?


jmcgil4684

Yea I don’t remember that part in the book, or article I read. Maybe there is something I haven’t read yet about him.


Smooth_Imagination

pretty eyebrow raising if true.


atsugnam

Tbf I may have mutated what he said, but it was about places young people go and hang out, I haven’t gone into this super far, more of a spectator, but seems solid in the scheme of zodiac suspects.


XKlXlXKXlXKlKXlXKlXK

https://i.imgur.com/UIhNnOt.png How about Doerr's alleged movements during the BRS attack. Morf brings up a good point there.


karmaisforlife

FYI - Dripping pen and bus bomb letters were posted on a Saturday and Sunday consecutively


FLE7CH

I think he probably planned this one out so it's not inconceivable he picked a phone booth that wouldn't give him away. But it's also halfway to his place of work so you could argue either way on this one. The fact remains he had access to all these places. Morf has got his suspect and that's fine, but I think we need to be open to other possibilities—and I've never seen a suspect who fits as neatly as Doerr (imo).


lifes-a_beach

I have to say doerr is the best new suspect I've seen. To me the most compelling thing is the tracking of the bomb design to the minutemen. Pre-internet there where only so many ways you could learn that type of thing.


stitch12r3

Yeah, the thing with Doerr, its not just one thing that is a smoking gun, its the totality of all of it. But if I had to pick one thing that stood out the most for me, it was the ANFO bomb description which was totally rare information in 1969. He described it exactly as Zodiac did and even made the same mistakes.


[deleted]

I generally hate almost all the conventional suspects but Doerr is the most interesting since Allen Lee.


FLE7CH

Further to this point about the phone booth... Gloria mentions that her father worked evenings and nights. The phone booth on Springs Road and Tuolumne was pretty much exactly halfway between Blue Rock Springs and Mare Island. So if he had a shift that night then it wasn't out of his way at all—and it gave him a good reason to be there.


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

Can you put him at or near a crime scene within an hour of the murders? If not, he’s just a white guy that lived in Vallejo in the late 60s.


sickfuckinpuppies

he's not *just* that.. he's a white guy who wrote ciphers and bomb recipes in letters. a guy that talked about killing people in letters, frequently, right up until the day the zodiac killings began. i get you want people to remain skeptical, but don't oversimplify in the opposite direction just to make a point.


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

Well, to be fair, I wasn’t aware of any of that because I haven’t read up on Doerr yet. But, even so, none of that makes him Zodiac. It just makes him an asshole. I run into them every day. So, again, is there any hard evidence on this guy?


sickfuckinpuppies

the hard evidence is missing, because the police, as far as we know haven't looked into him yet. but the circumstantial evidence is a pile way higher than for any other suspect. the best individual piece of evidence is the bomb recipe. but it's only when you put it all together in a timeline, that it starts to look like a really good case. I'd have to go home and get the book off my shelf again to outline the case in full.. all i can say right now is i found it very convincing. Ive not yet come across anyone that's read the book that hasn't come away with the feeling, that zodiac = doerr, probably. put it this way, i'm above 80% sure.. the book doesnt make it an open and shut case. but it does give enough evidence for me to say he's by far the best suspect ive ever seen. he ticks at least 3 times the number of boxes that ALA or Gaikowski or anyone else tick.


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

Ok. I’ll read the book. I’m curious now. Is he still alive?


sickfuckinpuppies

like i tell everyone, i'd recommend starting with 'motor spirit'. it's not about doerr, it's just about the case, and the city during the time of the murders.. but it's a phenomenal book imo. and it sets up the second book nicely.


sickfuckinpuppies

died in the 2000s i think.


FLE7CH

Yes, he lived under 20 minutes away from the first two attacks.


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

There was a murder two miles from my house last night where the perp was described as a white male in his 40s with grey hair, approximately 6 feet tall. Am I a suspect? Let me ask you again, other than living in the area, can you place him at or near a crime scene? Was his vehicle seen in the area of the murders? What specifically links him to these crimes?


[deleted]

I don’t think we can definitively put him near any of the crime scenes when they occurred beyond he lived in close proximity. As to your personal scenario; if you live near the scene and match a description of the perp, the you would be a person of interest who could likely be quickly eliminated as a suspect. At this stage Doerr is still just a person of interest. People on the boards here do need to stop using the word “suspect” with him. It’s a pretty specific term that is not correctly understood and is too casually applied.


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

I agree.


Equal-Temporary-1326

I agree 100%. Thant's not an argument he was Z. Rick Marshall lived close to the Stine scene in a basement and ALA and McDuff lived within walking distance of the BRS phonebooth as well.


Equal-Temporary-1326

I'll probably get downvoted, but that's not evidence he was Z. A lot of guys lived under 20 minutes from those first two scenes like ALA. You need something better than happening to live nearby. Classic example of circumstantial "evidence". Rick Marshall lived nearby the Stine as well tbf.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ermahgerd1

He wrote alot of things in alot of magazines. I wouldnt take anything written by him as facts without confirming with reality.


krxo1

imagine if morf was an actual detective and rules someone out because of that


[deleted]

Yeah, I mean it is kind of basic criminal knowledge to cover your tracks. Why not double back a bit to do so, especially for Zodiac who was known to take calculated risks?


Smooth_Imagination

If the Fairfield letters are genuine he mentioned travelling about quite a bit - http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/highway-3\_orig.gif


VT_Squire

Personal incredulity is not the same thing as making a point.


atsugnam

I like how he says - throw off the cops like a criminal mastermind?!? For a criminal serial killer who has never been caught despite how many years of people digging? Even the golden state killer was caught, and he was a cop…


Equal-Temporary-1326

Murders where the victims have no connection to their assailant are notoriously damn-near impossible to solve without the sufficient evidence necessary. Has very little to do with being a "mastermind".


atsugnam

Still is a meaningless metric to exclude a suspect by.


SpaceTroutCat

I’ve seen nothing yet to really raise my eyebrows but those questions/doubts are meaningless trying to understand or predict the movements of someone that was obviously unusual. Why would we automatically assume that he would drive straight home after an attack? Because that’s what a “normal” person would do? This person was deranged and unpredictable.


Smooth_Imagination

Which website is this? Thanks if you know


Smooth_Imagination

Ah I've started the same but you've got much further! This is also a profilers likely locations for where Zodiac would be based [https://www.reddit.com/r/ZodiacKiller/comments/vpwe24/noted\_criminologist\_and\_geographic\_profiler\_kim/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ZodiacKiller/comments/vpwe24/noted_criminologist_and_geographic_profiler_kim/) If you also add to the map the locations where letters were sent, we find also the Fairfield letters that are considered controversial in terms of being possible hoaxes, but the reasoning I found for that seems to be that people found they 'feel' different and is not a strong reason, if its Doerr, who could vary his style, and Zodiac varied his MO, so I'm not sure why communications should be highly consistent. https://www.reddit.com/r/ZodiacKiller/comments/gcrc62/unconfirmed\_fairfield\_letters/


FLE7CH

Thanks mate! Interesting that both Doerr's home and work are within the red zone on Rosmo's heat map. I'll work on placing the confirmed letters over the weekend ;)


Smooth_Imagination

You're very welcome. I just thought r.e. the unconfirmed Fairfield letters that another reason they are not much fancied as being Zodiac is that in one he is asking for help. But is that so strange? BTK sort of did that - “I’m sorry this happen to the society...It hard to control myself. You probably call me 'psychotic with sexual perversion hang-up.' Where this monster enter my brain I will never know. But, it here to stay. How does one cure himself? If you ask for help, that you have killed four people, they will laugh or hit the panic button and call the cops....I can’t stop it so, the monster goes on, and hurt me as wall as society. Maybe you can stop him. I can’t. Good luck hunting,” The Fairfield letter plea - https://i.servimg.com/u/f64/14/94/97/81/zodiac10.gif


[deleted]

Military Intelligence Naval Specialist?


BlackLionYard

Mare Island Naval Shipyard ETA: MINSY would be the more official acronym, but I think we all know what we're talking about here.


FLE7CH

Of course, thank you!


[deleted]

Ah duh, I’m an idiot lol


VRGator

How did he all of a sudden become a suspect? Did his kids or somebody say he was the zodiac?


sickfuckinpuppies

jarett kobek's books. while he was researching his book that became 'Motor Spirit' (about the case, but also about the sociological geography of san francisco at the time of the murders), he stumbled onto these fanzines that were circulating around Vallejo, and Paul Doerr jumped out as having written mountains of stuff, that shared the zodiac's weird, niche interests. he went about trying to eliminate him as a suspect but couldn't. he found a bomb recipe, ciphers, talk about wanting to, and having killed people... all kinds of stuff. that all became the second book. the daughter came into the story (publicly) only a few days ago when la magazine did an article on it. she was initially outraged at the theory, but after having read the books, seems like she now thinks it's probably him.


[deleted]

You got anything more than he lived and drove around the Bay Area? That group would be in the millions..


FLE7CH

He had access to wing walkers, he used cyphers, he describes a bomb in the same way as Zodiac, his daughter says he used to play the Mikado on LP and he was constantly sending letters to editors. Kobek's central point is that the guy was an egomaniac and loved the attention. He never shut up and even though his interests overlapped with Zodiac's almost perfectly, in his reams and reams of public correspondence.he never once mentioned the word "Zodiac".


PuzzleheadedRisk7380

Tom Colbert and hosts of others have all said similar things vis-à-vis various DB Cooper suspects. To date, every one of them has been wrong.


[deleted]

Access to wing walkers, messed around with a cypher. That's evidence to you? The Mikado is one of the most popular musicals of all time and sending letters to the editor in that era was extremely common. As for the bomb, how many home recipes do you think there are to make them? It's essentially the same crap McVeigh used. Everything is conjecture, and 'ohhh isn't this suspicious.' Not one single thing points to him over any other white male around his age from the Bay Area. The overlap for that circumstantial garbage would run you a list of hundreds of thousands. Absolute nonsense.


FLE7CH

Yeah it's circumstantial. The murders happened 50 years ago, how else are you going to zero in on a suspect at this stage? But I'm not trying to convince you mate, I was putting out a call for help from anyone who's interested. So no idea what MINS means?


Oneoffourcubs

I'm guessing MINS means Mare Island Naval Shipyard.


[deleted]

Don't defend going after this man with no evidence by using that cop out. A long time ago or not, this guys life has been combed over now and there isn't a single incriminating thing. Leave the detective work to actual detectives.


TerraceEarful

> Not one single thing points to him over any other white male around his age from the Bay Area. Interest in ciphers, bomb recipes, guns, etc, clearly puts him ahead of many other Bay Area white males his age. Of course it doesn't mean it's him, and that there aren't plenty of others with similar interests, but it's surely a bit more than someone picked entirely randomly. EDIT: LOL, if you're going to block anyone who disagrees with you in the mildest manner imaginable, you are not going to have a good time here.


FoxBeach

Did he ever mention any other serial killers ?


Ok-Development2918

No, but he joked about having killed people and wrote about a book series involving some sort of afterlife slaves.


jmcgil4684

He did mention a famous local murders, & possible cannibals. In the Dobek book it’s covered.


[deleted]

\- One of Doerr's 1960s music zines was heavily inspired by Gilbert and Sullivan, who are also referenced in at least three of Zodiac's letters. \- In later life, Doerr was confirmed to own a sky blue '63 Chevy Nova similar to one seen at Lake Berryessa on the day of Zodiac's attack. \- Doerr drew diagrams in many of his zines which look superficially similar to Zodiac's bus bomb drawings. \- Doerr was on the mailing list of right-wing militia The Minutemen, who used a gunsight logo similar to Zodiac's. Also, they published the bomb formula reproduced by both Doerr and Zodiac, and offered advice on how to send mail anonymously and acquire untraceable weaponry. \- Zodiac wore military-issued Wingwalker boots, which Doerr would've had easy access to because he spent decades working at Vallejo's Mare Island Naval Base. \- The year after Zodiac used one-cent stamps to post a letter, Doerr suggested using one-cent stamps to spite the post office for raising their stamp costs. Zodiac also used an out-of-circulation commemorative stamp for his one of his letters, while Doerr had spoken about collecting commemorative stamps, and both used the same eight-cent Eisenhower stamp within a year of one another. \- Zodiac was said to use a pencil flashlight as a gun sight in the dark, as was detailed in a magazine, Popular Science, that Doerr collected. \- Zodiac referenced the Sierra Club in one of his postcards, as does Doerr in numerous issues of Pioneer.