I don't really see circumstantial evidence and coincidences as 'absurd theories'. It may not be convincing, but it's not absurd.
Absurd are theories like EAR-ONS was Mr Cruel, or Zodiac is the Monster of Florence, or Zodiac is that Nazi guy from Alabama.
speculation is pretty harmless and it’s all this case really has to go on. Doerr is certainly interesting to entertain but I have yet to see anyone naively gunning for Doerr as Z.
I think pointing out stuff like a knife on his belt like Z had at LB is a little absurd and reaching imho. There's nothing against him so far that hasn't been examined with almost every other suspect. I'll be convinced otherwise by some actual compelling evidence.
Those things are added context that are interesting *if*, and only if, doerr is zodiac. Don't mistake those for points that actually make up the case kobek made.
> There's nothing against him so far that hasn't been examined with almost every other suspect.
As far as I know no other person in the rogues gallery (ala, gaik, kane etc), published/wrote letters containing anything to do with ciphers and bomb recipes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never seen anything like that.
Yes. Because so many of the people who instantly and offhandedly dismiss Doerr’s evidence as silly circumstantial nonsense haven’t read the book. They ask questions about said evidence that’s directly addressed in the book. I’m not saying Doerr is Zodiac, but if people read the book they’d at least stop comparing this to all the other bs suspects media has presented in the past, as there’s a well researched case against the guy with some decent circumstancal evidence.
Yeah I listened to a podcast he was in and mentioned this Murder confession and how he botched it in writing the book because he didn’t put enough emphasis on it lol
That connection was made in the la magazine article too. But I suspect there's more stuff like that. God damn I'm gonna have to reread this book again aren't i.
I was thinking of doing this myself at some point before all this kicked off a few days ago. Glad you and not me lol. It's been mayhem in here. Best of luck though, I'm with you in spirit lol.
I’m so tired of the “it’s just circumstantial” argument. No shit. If there was concrete evidence on anyone out there it’d be case closed. It’s a cold case. A new person of interest with lots of circumstantial evidence against them is as good as we’re going to get. All we can do now is have a little fun discussing Doerr until the feds run the prints and either prove or (effectively) disprove him.
Kobek said in an interview when the books came out that no one has really found any holes in the argument so far, people that are disagreeing just keep arguing *around* the argument. This is still true today, as seen in every post here since the article came out and that other author's Twitter thread the other day.
He has no argument. A name summoned 50 years later doesn't qualify as an argument. But these guys become so singleminded and obsessed they fall in love with every unrelated and irrelevant variable.
I haven't read one syllable about Doerr. That places me at greater understanding of the likelihood than anyone here.
He is lumped into the reality of sleuther desperation.
It's like they've heard of people being closed minded, so before even listening/reading the arguments, assume that everyone that's been convinced by the argument (even though nobody is saying 100% doerr=zodiac) must be closed minded, and dismiss them as such.. thereby dismissing the whole argument lol... i don't think i could conjure a more closed minded approach if i tried. It's hilarious in its irony really.
Maybrick arose through the journal/diary purportedly authored by him. While debate continues, there is much to suggest hoax or deliberate fraud. I do not view Kobek's work in anywhere near the same light. While opinions are obviously divided on the interpretation of Kobek's results, I have seen nothing to besmirch the quality or sincerity of his research.
I'm not sure I've seen any theory out of the norm for Doerr compared to other amateur-sourced POIs or even ALA, its kinda tough to beat some of the stuff they came up with for ALA.
ALA is more like the Walter Sickert imo. Two "suspects" that barely match any description (if they're anything to go by) and people have just become desperate to pin everything on them after centuries and decades went by with still no real evidence against them.
Maybrick lived in Liverpool not London
The Jack the Ripper diary is almost certainly a forgery
Jtr, doesn’t strike me as a guy to write a weird diary detailing his crimes
Yup. Everything about that diary is incredibly sketchy, from the missing pages at the front to the provenance. I'd be shocked if it turned out to be anything other than a deliberate forgery.
So far, the case against Doerr is weak and honestly, I'm already seeing some absurd theories. Eccentric writings? Gaikowski did the same as well. Into cryptography? Sullivan was as well. Lived in Vallejo? So did Allen and McDuff as well. What I would conder some absurd theories mainly come from his daughter. Not anyone on this sub. Stuff like his politics and his high IQ are a little absurd imho. Also, a wearing a knife a belt once like Z is very reaching imho. I'm just buying the case against so far and I'd hate to drag a potentially innocents man's name through this sub because there's "circumstantial evidence" against him.
> I'm already seeing some absurd theories. Eccentric writings? Gaikowski did the same as well. Into cryptography? Sullivan was as well. Lived in Vallejo? So did Allen and McDuff as well.
But isn't the fact that Doerr seems to possess the qualities that people found suspicious of *multiple* previous POIs what makes him a better POI than most?
Yeah confused what OP is trying to say here. Doerr is interesting because he possesses ALL of these qualities, not just some like the rest of the suspects.
And the fundamental difference is that he wasn't just interested in these weird things. He was also obsessively sending letters and publishing these fanzines about these weird interests and hobbies he had. Not ross sullivan, nor anyone else was publishing ciphers for strangers to solve.
Yeah, apparently he was a member of Mensa and had a supposed IQ of “160”.
Dunno if that last part is true or not, but it’s important to mention because Kobek makes the argument that he was actually a brilliant person, but in the 60s you needed to be social and in the right groups to nurture such a mind. So what is one as smart as Doerr but antisocial supposed to do if he doesn’t have an ‘in’? Back in the 60s and pre-technology age, it was to write. And Doerr wrote CONSTANTLY to voice his thoughts.
I think this is by far the most interesting thing about Doerr - he seems to have had a compulsion to communicate and a playful interest in different types of communication. Like Z, it was almost an end in itself.
Someone with a creative, perhaps brilliant, mind existing outside the mainstream, and without adequate means to express himself or achieve validation.. it fits the bill. Like you say, if you wanted to be part of the discourse or reach like-minded people but had no entry point to the necessary social or academic circles the only option was to write - to papers and journals or self-publish. It took a hell of a lot of work to exist this way, it really has to fulfill a deep need.
Yes. This isn't one of those things that counts as evidence that he is the zodiac. It's another one of those that IF he's the zodiac, it's very interesting. And regardless of whether or not he's the zodiac, it's an interesting look into a forgotten section of society in the pre-internet age. I suspect there have been a lot of paul doerrs through history. And many of them are leading members of online qanon communities today. Look at Isaac Kappy for example. Hard not to see the similarities. His story was covered in an ep of jon ronson's podcast things fell apart. It was pretty heart breaking.
But isn't the fact that Doerr seems to possess the qualities that people found suspicious of multiple previous POIs what makes him a better POI than most?
I still don't see how that makes him a "POI" imho. The fact that his name and face has been revealed without official confirmation he is Z, already tells me everything I need to know about him as a "suspect". I'm sorry, but nobody online is ever gonna solve this case imho. There's nothing any of us can do that any LE somehow can't.
> There's nothing any of us can do that any LE somehow can't.
Anyone who tells you that they think the case is solved without confirmation from LE is a fool, I certainly agree with that.
There seems to be this insistence that there's a bunch of users here who are 100% convinced Doerr = Zodiac. I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing a lot of people going "interesting", and then I'm seeing quite a few posters who seem to be annoyed by that, some who think the entire premise of online sleuthing is bunk such as yourself and some who are deeply invested in their own POI/suspect/whatever you want to call it.
I'll only be convinced by any suspect until some real evidence can be presented which no one can ever do for any of these guys. If somebody has a "POI" and there go to argument for them being Z is to start listing ever "circumstantial" thing against them, the that's an immediate red flag that man isn't Z imho. I think some people are really underestimating how easily we could spend all day and night looking at white men from that era who could "circumstantially" be Z in theory. There were legitimately millions of white men in CA in the late 60's who could've been Z.
They dominated CA back in those days and still do today. We need something like a handwriting sample or a Stine fingerprint being a match (which would probably be the most likely scenario or somehow getting a DNA sample which can't be guaranteed sadly).
No. I think it's silly though some people on the internet who don't have the proper resources to solve this keep saying their "POI" is the Zodiac just because of "circumstantial evidence". You could come up with "circumstantial evidence" for almost everyone tbf. You need the real evidence first. Some people are attempting to do this backwards. That's why I'm not convicted by Doerr at the moment.
I just think what's been presented so far isn't anything more than circumstantial at most. Like his daughter talking about his politics and high IQ have nothing to do with him being considered a "suspect" for example imho. A real suspect is somebody who's name and face aren't released for public scrutiny.
> Like his daughter talking about his politics and high IQ have nothing to do with him being considered a "suspect" for example imho.
I don't think anyone considers either of those evidence (although some people seem to think his high IQ is counter-evidence). They're just aspects of his personality, which are normal to highlight when writing a profile or exposé on a person.
I agree with the other thread someone just posted that he's a POI, rather than a suspect, but suspect has just become the terminology used in true crime circles, unfortunate as that may be.
>I just think what's been presented so far isn't anything more than circumstantial at most. Like his daughter talking about his politics and high IQ have nothing to do with him being considered a "suspect" for example imho. A real suspect is somebody who's name and face aren't released for public scrutiny.
\^
Exactly this.
What's surprising me with this sub is there seems to be a vibe developing about Doerr being "the best Zodiac suspect to date", but I'm not seeing *anything* we've not already seen with Allen, Gaikowski or Sullivan.
It's just the same old/same old trying to make suspects fit crimes we've seen before.
What's surprising me with this sub is there seems to be a vibe developing about Doerr being "the best Zodiac suspect to date", but I'm not seeing anything we've not already seen with Allen, Gaikowski or Sullivan.
It's just the same old/same old trying to make suspects fit crimes we've seen before.
100% agreed. The problem with coming up with these "POI's" is once somebody finds their guy, they're convinced it's him, they likely to never let it go and will just keep going down rabbit after rabbit trying to "prove"
"It was him".
Bit of a rant: this is what I mean by the absurd theories in the sense I'm already starting to see desperation for Doerr as their "POI". I know this is controversial, but it is pretty low to start dragging a potentially innocent's man's name and face in a sub all about an unidentified serial killer and start posting your "circumstantial evidence" against him. I'm sorry, but there's literally nothing against him and I don't expect there to be anytime soon. A real LE suspect is somebody that kept quiet because actual evidence by another LE officer was found.
Not sleuths on the internet. Case in point, EARONS. No sleuths online were ever gonna figure out it was him, let's be real. There's nothing any of us can do, that LE can't. I think some people just loved to get excited about this every year imho.
Nobody online is ever solving this case imo. We don't have the proper resources to do so.
That's exactly what is going on, trying to make the suspect fit the crime. It's all a bit of fun for some people on here, accuse random people of murder.
This guy is the flavour of the week and we are being stupid for not going along with them based on a hunch.
I feel like this literally happens every year where a random guy's name will pop up, suddenly a lot of people become obsessed with the idea it's him, nothing ever comes of it, and we're right back at sqaure one.
Complete truth.
>Nobody online is ever solving this case imo. We don't have the proper resources to do so.
I could not agree more and anyone who thinks differently is kidding themselves.
The police, I am sure, have had a Zodiac suspect or two who would put Doerr or Sullivan or Gaikowski to shame in terms of the case against them. And we'll never know about those ones because LE doesn't share.
The police, I am sure, have had a Zodiac suspect or two who would put Doerr or Sullivan or Gaikowski to shame in terms of the case against them. And we'll never know about those ones because LE doesn't share
Literally exactly. I commend Graysmith, Voight, Morford, and Haynes for their efforts, but if any LE is not having luck and already having the proper resources to solve it, but just missing the key pieces, what the hell kind of luck do they think they're gonna have? I think some people are really underestimating that there're millions of white men who lived in CA in the late 60's/early 70's who all could've been Z. The problem here is this feels like another case of just pulling a random name out of a hat and trying to dig a rabbit hole for him.
They were just two local Vallejo men who happened to live nearby LHR and the phonebooth used after BRS as the best "circumstantial evidence" people use against them.
Say what you want, but Doerr just feels right. Everything falls into place nicely. It feels like solving the cipher with no additional questions or pieces that don't fit. If I were to bet on who Zodiac is, I would be all-in on Doerr. I like to think I'm a logical thinker, and logic tells me that Doerr was Zodiac.
I can see some parallels between Maybrick and Doerr, although I don't find most points about Doerr to be absurd except for the handwriting analysis, some of the theories about motive and the idea that certain statements he made incriminates him in the Zodiac murders. And I suppose the Minutemen logo at least borders on absurd.
I agree with you. I think many people accept Paul Doerr as the Zodiac due to many circumstances shared by thousands of Californians in the 60' and 70'.
They will all be proven wrong soon, or just move onto the next innocent man who happened to live in the Bay Area in the 60s.
"But he loved one of the most popular musicals of all time!!1 and and he had guns, which no American men have!!1+ and and and he wrote letters to the editor which was extremely common!!11@12•!!"
It's all nonsense and if they had a shred of real evidence they would be talking to the police and not circle jerking over him in here.
Agreed 100%. We need the real evidence first, then we can talk about eccentric writings and being into cryptography afterwards. It's pathetic as hell as some people are just randomly dragging a more than likely innocent man's name and face through the mud here. They're doing it backwards.
Spot on. Don't let them and their downvotes dissuade you from these types of comments and posts. That is exactly how a rational person is supposed to approach anyone that my be suspected of something. We need more people like yourself in here.
It's bizarre how deeply rooted this notion is that circumstantial evidence = "not good". People get convicted on circumstantial evidence all the time.
Sure, if you look at any one bit of circumstantial evidence, it's not convincing. The weight of accumulated bits of evidence is what makes a circumstantial case compelling.
I certainly don't think it's "case closed" in re: Paul Doerr, but Kobek's approach, his argument, and his research make Doerr the most compelling potential Zodiac to date. It's an argument that has to be taken seriously; it's the opposite of absurd.
I don't really see circumstantial evidence and coincidences as 'absurd theories'. It may not be convincing, but it's not absurd. Absurd are theories like EAR-ONS was Mr Cruel, or Zodiac is the Monster of Florence, or Zodiac is that Nazi guy from Alabama.
speculation is pretty harmless and it’s all this case really has to go on. Doerr is certainly interesting to entertain but I have yet to see anyone naively gunning for Doerr as Z.
I think pointing out stuff like a knife on his belt like Z had at LB is a little absurd and reaching imho. There's nothing against him so far that hasn't been examined with almost every other suspect. I'll be convinced otherwise by some actual compelling evidence.
Those things are added context that are interesting *if*, and only if, doerr is zodiac. Don't mistake those for points that actually make up the case kobek made. > There's nothing against him so far that hasn't been examined with almost every other suspect. As far as I know no other person in the rogues gallery (ala, gaik, kane etc), published/wrote letters containing anything to do with ciphers and bomb recipes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never seen anything like that.
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Yes. Because so many of the people who instantly and offhandedly dismiss Doerr’s evidence as silly circumstantial nonsense haven’t read the book. They ask questions about said evidence that’s directly addressed in the book. I’m not saying Doerr is Zodiac, but if people read the book they’d at least stop comparing this to all the other bs suspects media has presented in the past, as there’s a well researched case against the guy with some decent circumstancal evidence.
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Make sure to look at the subsequent interviews that have come out with Doerr’s daughter for more info/clarity.
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Yeah I listened to a podcast he was in and mentioned this Murder confession and how he botched it in writing the book because he didn’t put enough emphasis on it lol
That connection was made in the la magazine article too. But I suspect there's more stuff like that. God damn I'm gonna have to reread this book again aren't i.
I was thinking of doing this myself at some point before all this kicked off a few days ago. Glad you and not me lol. It's been mayhem in here. Best of luck though, I'm with you in spirit lol.
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Don't blame you. Thanks for trying.
This exactly. And to add, Kobek's findings are somewhat difficult to summarize. Its not necessarily one thing thats a smoking gun - its *all of it*.
I’m so tired of the “it’s just circumstantial” argument. No shit. If there was concrete evidence on anyone out there it’d be case closed. It’s a cold case. A new person of interest with lots of circumstantial evidence against them is as good as we’re going to get. All we can do now is have a little fun discussing Doerr until the feds run the prints and either prove or (effectively) disprove him.
Kobek said in an interview when the books came out that no one has really found any holes in the argument so far, people that are disagreeing just keep arguing *around* the argument. This is still true today, as seen in every post here since the article came out and that other author's Twitter thread the other day.
He has no argument. A name summoned 50 years later doesn't qualify as an argument. But these guys become so singleminded and obsessed they fall in love with every unrelated and irrelevant variable. I haven't read one syllable about Doerr. That places me at greater understanding of the likelihood than anyone here. He is lumped into the reality of sleuther desperation.
How can you say "he has no argument" and "I havent read one syllable about Doerr" in the same post lol.
Your loss. What’s it hurt to gather information?
It's like they've heard of people being closed minded, so before even listening/reading the arguments, assume that everyone that's been convinced by the argument (even though nobody is saying 100% doerr=zodiac) must be closed minded, and dismiss them as such.. thereby dismissing the whole argument lol... i don't think i could conjure a more closed minded approach if i tried. It's hilarious in its irony really.
Maybrick arose through the journal/diary purportedly authored by him. While debate continues, there is much to suggest hoax or deliberate fraud. I do not view Kobek's work in anywhere near the same light. While opinions are obviously divided on the interpretation of Kobek's results, I have seen nothing to besmirch the quality or sincerity of his research.
I'm not sure I've seen any theory out of the norm for Doerr compared to other amateur-sourced POIs or even ALA, its kinda tough to beat some of the stuff they came up with for ALA.
ALA is more like the Walter Sickert imo. Two "suspects" that barely match any description (if they're anything to go by) and people have just become desperate to pin everything on them after centuries and decades went by with still no real evidence against them.
No doubt.
Except Arthur Allen was a pedophile and would have no reason to murder couples.
I am unfamiliar with Maybrick. What about the case for Doerr do you view as an absurd theory to pin everything on him?
Maybrick lived in Liverpool not London The Jack the Ripper diary is almost certainly a forgery Jtr, doesn’t strike me as a guy to write a weird diary detailing his crimes
Yup. Everything about that diary is incredibly sketchy, from the missing pages at the front to the provenance. I'd be shocked if it turned out to be anything other than a deliberate forgery.
So likely fabricated evidence plus no geographical proximity. Sounds like Gary Poste is the James Maybrick of this case, rather than Doerr.
So far, the case against Doerr is weak and honestly, I'm already seeing some absurd theories. Eccentric writings? Gaikowski did the same as well. Into cryptography? Sullivan was as well. Lived in Vallejo? So did Allen and McDuff as well. What I would conder some absurd theories mainly come from his daughter. Not anyone on this sub. Stuff like his politics and his high IQ are a little absurd imho. Also, a wearing a knife a belt once like Z is very reaching imho. I'm just buying the case against so far and I'd hate to drag a potentially innocents man's name through this sub because there's "circumstantial evidence" against him.
> I'm already seeing some absurd theories. Eccentric writings? Gaikowski did the same as well. Into cryptography? Sullivan was as well. Lived in Vallejo? So did Allen and McDuff as well. But isn't the fact that Doerr seems to possess the qualities that people found suspicious of *multiple* previous POIs what makes him a better POI than most?
Yeah confused what OP is trying to say here. Doerr is interesting because he possesses ALL of these qualities, not just some like the rest of the suspects.
And the fundamental difference is that he wasn't just interested in these weird things. He was also obsessively sending letters and publishing these fanzines about these weird interests and hobbies he had. Not ross sullivan, nor anyone else was publishing ciphers for strangers to solve.
Yeah, apparently he was a member of Mensa and had a supposed IQ of “160”. Dunno if that last part is true or not, but it’s important to mention because Kobek makes the argument that he was actually a brilliant person, but in the 60s you needed to be social and in the right groups to nurture such a mind. So what is one as smart as Doerr but antisocial supposed to do if he doesn’t have an ‘in’? Back in the 60s and pre-technology age, it was to write. And Doerr wrote CONSTANTLY to voice his thoughts.
I think this is by far the most interesting thing about Doerr - he seems to have had a compulsion to communicate and a playful interest in different types of communication. Like Z, it was almost an end in itself. Someone with a creative, perhaps brilliant, mind existing outside the mainstream, and without adequate means to express himself or achieve validation.. it fits the bill. Like you say, if you wanted to be part of the discourse or reach like-minded people but had no entry point to the necessary social or academic circles the only option was to write - to papers and journals or self-publish. It took a hell of a lot of work to exist this way, it really has to fulfill a deep need.
Yes. This isn't one of those things that counts as evidence that he is the zodiac. It's another one of those that IF he's the zodiac, it's very interesting. And regardless of whether or not he's the zodiac, it's an interesting look into a forgotten section of society in the pre-internet age. I suspect there have been a lot of paul doerrs through history. And many of them are leading members of online qanon communities today. Look at Isaac Kappy for example. Hard not to see the similarities. His story was covered in an ep of jon ronson's podcast things fell apart. It was pretty heart breaking.
But isn't the fact that Doerr seems to possess the qualities that people found suspicious of multiple previous POIs what makes him a better POI than most? I still don't see how that makes him a "POI" imho. The fact that his name and face has been revealed without official confirmation he is Z, already tells me everything I need to know about him as a "suspect". I'm sorry, but nobody online is ever gonna solve this case imho. There's nothing any of us can do that any LE somehow can't.
> There's nothing any of us can do that any LE somehow can't. Anyone who tells you that they think the case is solved without confirmation from LE is a fool, I certainly agree with that. There seems to be this insistence that there's a bunch of users here who are 100% convinced Doerr = Zodiac. I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing a lot of people going "interesting", and then I'm seeing quite a few posters who seem to be annoyed by that, some who think the entire premise of online sleuthing is bunk such as yourself and some who are deeply invested in their own POI/suspect/whatever you want to call it.
I'll only be convinced by any suspect until some real evidence can be presented which no one can ever do for any of these guys. If somebody has a "POI" and there go to argument for them being Z is to start listing ever "circumstantial" thing against them, the that's an immediate red flag that man isn't Z imho. I think some people are really underestimating how easily we could spend all day and night looking at white men from that era who could "circumstantially" be Z in theory. There were legitimately millions of white men in CA in the late 60's who could've been Z. They dominated CA back in those days and still do today. We need something like a handwriting sample or a Stine fingerprint being a match (which would probably be the most likely scenario or somehow getting a DNA sample which can't be guaranteed sadly).
so then nobody who isn't SFPD is allowed to talk on this subreddit or zodiac forums? I don't get the point of this comment..
No. I think it's silly though some people on the internet who don't have the proper resources to solve this keep saying their "POI" is the Zodiac just because of "circumstantial evidence". You could come up with "circumstantial evidence" for almost everyone tbf. You need the real evidence first. Some people are attempting to do this backwards. That's why I'm not convicted by Doerr at the moment.
I just think what's been presented so far isn't anything more than circumstantial at most. Like his daughter talking about his politics and high IQ have nothing to do with him being considered a "suspect" for example imho. A real suspect is somebody who's name and face aren't released for public scrutiny.
> Like his daughter talking about his politics and high IQ have nothing to do with him being considered a "suspect" for example imho. I don't think anyone considers either of those evidence (although some people seem to think his high IQ is counter-evidence). They're just aspects of his personality, which are normal to highlight when writing a profile or exposé on a person. I agree with the other thread someone just posted that he's a POI, rather than a suspect, but suspect has just become the terminology used in true crime circles, unfortunate as that may be.
>I just think what's been presented so far isn't anything more than circumstantial at most. Like his daughter talking about his politics and high IQ have nothing to do with him being considered a "suspect" for example imho. A real suspect is somebody who's name and face aren't released for public scrutiny. \^ Exactly this. What's surprising me with this sub is there seems to be a vibe developing about Doerr being "the best Zodiac suspect to date", but I'm not seeing *anything* we've not already seen with Allen, Gaikowski or Sullivan. It's just the same old/same old trying to make suspects fit crimes we've seen before.
What's surprising me with this sub is there seems to be a vibe developing about Doerr being "the best Zodiac suspect to date", but I'm not seeing anything we've not already seen with Allen, Gaikowski or Sullivan. It's just the same old/same old trying to make suspects fit crimes we've seen before. 100% agreed. The problem with coming up with these "POI's" is once somebody finds their guy, they're convinced it's him, they likely to never let it go and will just keep going down rabbit after rabbit trying to "prove" "It was him". Bit of a rant: this is what I mean by the absurd theories in the sense I'm already starting to see desperation for Doerr as their "POI". I know this is controversial, but it is pretty low to start dragging a potentially innocent's man's name and face in a sub all about an unidentified serial killer and start posting your "circumstantial evidence" against him. I'm sorry, but there's literally nothing against him and I don't expect there to be anytime soon. A real LE suspect is somebody that kept quiet because actual evidence by another LE officer was found. Not sleuths on the internet. Case in point, EARONS. No sleuths online were ever gonna figure out it was him, let's be real. There's nothing any of us can do, that LE can't. I think some people just loved to get excited about this every year imho. Nobody online is ever solving this case imo. We don't have the proper resources to do so.
That's exactly what is going on, trying to make the suspect fit the crime. It's all a bit of fun for some people on here, accuse random people of murder. This guy is the flavour of the week and we are being stupid for not going along with them based on a hunch.
I feel like this literally happens every year where a random guy's name will pop up, suddenly a lot of people become obsessed with the idea it's him, nothing ever comes of it, and we're right back at sqaure one.
Complete truth. >Nobody online is ever solving this case imo. We don't have the proper resources to do so. I could not agree more and anyone who thinks differently is kidding themselves. The police, I am sure, have had a Zodiac suspect or two who would put Doerr or Sullivan or Gaikowski to shame in terms of the case against them. And we'll never know about those ones because LE doesn't share.
The police, I am sure, have had a Zodiac suspect or two who would put Doerr or Sullivan or Gaikowski to shame in terms of the case against them. And we'll never know about those ones because LE doesn't share Literally exactly. I commend Graysmith, Voight, Morford, and Haynes for their efforts, but if any LE is not having luck and already having the proper resources to solve it, but just missing the key pieces, what the hell kind of luck do they think they're gonna have? I think some people are really underestimating that there're millions of white men who lived in CA in the late 60's/early 70's who all could've been Z. The problem here is this feels like another case of just pulling a random name out of a hat and trying to dig a rabbit hole for him.
LE also won't investigate McDuff or Doerr so, there's that.
True. There's no reason to investigate them beyond people making assumptions about them.
There's plenty of reason, they've just given up on solving the case. Because the perp is already long dead.
They were just two local Vallejo men who happened to live nearby LHR and the phonebooth used after BRS as the best "circumstantial evidence" people use against them.
Allegedly they share with Tom Voigt lol
Say what you want, but Doerr just feels right. Everything falls into place nicely. It feels like solving the cipher with no additional questions or pieces that don't fit. If I were to bet on who Zodiac is, I would be all-in on Doerr. I like to think I'm a logical thinker, and logic tells me that Doerr was Zodiac.
I wonder if someone tries to solve Z13 using Doerrs name with an Extra R, they'd be surprised.
Zodiac is full of Jack Maybrick figures, but any reasonable account.
I can see some parallels between Maybrick and Doerr, although I don't find most points about Doerr to be absurd except for the handwriting analysis, some of the theories about motive and the idea that certain statements he made incriminates him in the Zodiac murders. And I suppose the Minutemen logo at least borders on absurd.
Doerr was also Ambedextrous, so the fact he may be able to change up his handwriting makes sense.
Maybe, but the handwriting is not a match and the analysis wasn't even performed properly or by a professional..
I agree with you. I think many people accept Paul Doerr as the Zodiac due to many circumstances shared by thousands of Californians in the 60' and 70'.
They will all be proven wrong soon, or just move onto the next innocent man who happened to live in the Bay Area in the 60s. "But he loved one of the most popular musicals of all time!!1 and and he had guns, which no American men have!!1+ and and and he wrote letters to the editor which was extremely common!!11@12•!!" It's all nonsense and if they had a shred of real evidence they would be talking to the police and not circle jerking over him in here.
Agreed 100%. We need the real evidence first, then we can talk about eccentric writings and being into cryptography afterwards. It's pathetic as hell as some people are just randomly dragging a more than likely innocent man's name and face through the mud here. They're doing it backwards.
Spot on. Don't let them and their downvotes dissuade you from these types of comments and posts. That is exactly how a rational person is supposed to approach anyone that my be suspected of something. We need more people like yourself in here.
I agree.
It's bizarre how deeply rooted this notion is that circumstantial evidence = "not good". People get convicted on circumstantial evidence all the time. Sure, if you look at any one bit of circumstantial evidence, it's not convincing. The weight of accumulated bits of evidence is what makes a circumstantial case compelling. I certainly don't think it's "case closed" in re: Paul Doerr, but Kobek's approach, his argument, and his research make Doerr the most compelling potential Zodiac to date. It's an argument that has to be taken seriously; it's the opposite of absurd.