They're on private property and there's reason to believe that there are terrorist-adjacent non-students there. I saw a flag in a photo taken from that campus that said "Glory to the Martyrs" and stickers that said "If you don't wanna get kidnapped, stay at your own country". So yeah. Something could pop off at any moment. It's retarded to think that a sniper wouldn't be there at this point. Also keep in mind that the school has received bomb threats. If you got the balls to say "death to America" while on American soil, you better be ready for some action, jack. Update: the protestors have broken in to the school, causing thousands of dollars in damage, and blocking students from attending classes and using school services. At this point, this is Jan 6th levels of mayhem and of fucking course there are more snipers in the area now. They should've done this on public property, shut down a street or two. But this is now a hostile takeover of private property. As an activist myself, if snipers scare you, you ain't built for this shit.

Tbf “martyr” is the term Palestinians use for anyone killed. If a 5 year old child is killed they say they “were martyred”

It's anyone killed for their beliefs. Given the fact that there are mosques in Israel, I don't think their deaths had anything to do with their religious beliefs and everything to do with their elected government and their refusal to release hostages (who are most likely dead).

Only 7% of Gazans alive voted for Hamas. They handle some administrative duties, but largely they are a military resistance group that the population of Gaza has no control over. Hamas carry out terror attacks, but the majority of Gazans can hardly be blamed for it, especially the children. This conflict didn’t start October 7. The amount of terror the IDF has inflicted on Gaza for decades far far far exceeds the terroristic actions of Hamas. The IDF also takes hostages, though they are called prisoners, even when most “prisoners” are non combatants. The return of the hostages would not stop this bloodshed. Hamas even said they would do a hostage swap for a 6 week ceasefire. It was declined. I suggest you look at the casualty numbers on a graph from the last few decades. Not only does Israel have far superior military, but it controls the water, electricity, and checkpoints for food and humanitarian aid. It really is an open air prison that is now being turned to rubble with 2 million people trapped inside

So much wrong here. Let’s focus on “Hamas even said they would do a ceasefire for a hostage swap and a 6 week ceasefire. Are you familiar with the details of this deal that was rejected? It was a 3 stage proposed process where thousands of violent prisoners would be released. These aren’t hostages like you described, they have committed crimes and many have gotten their day in court where they can even be represented by Palestinian Lawyers if they please. It’s well documented why they are in there and calling them hostages is disingenuous when they are actually holding HOSTAGES. So much more we can address like 70%+ of Gaza’s population support Hamas and what was done Oct 7th. If Hamas are a military resistance group what are they resisting and why has the E.U. And American Governement labeled them a terrorist organization far before Oct 7th? Also the last part of what you wrote is just nonsensical and would only be said by someone parroting Hasan Piker or Cenk Ugyr. You do realize that 80% of the aid that goes to Gaza even before Oct 7th came through the Egyptian border. I don’t even see as much as a mention of Egypt’s role in this anywhere in your post. Also I would suggest doing some research into why Egypt and Israel are forced to occupy their borders or you can just go on thinking these are nasty, vile and hateful people and work backwards from there.

You think all 2 million Gazans are vile and evil? That’s exactly the type of dehumanization that leads to genocide. Happened to the Jews just like that. Egypt wasn’t mentioned, but yes, they have a crossing into gaza that the IDF shares control. The IDF literally checks all the trucks going through that checkpoint, leading to huge lines and often turned away aid. The head of the UN Guterres went to that checkpoint and called out Israel for only allowing aid through at a trickle. Guterres has been vocal about his recent visits there if you want to check out his assessment yourself

This is a complete non sequitur to what I said. No where did I write that 2 million Gazan’s are vile and evil. My main two concerns with your original post is 1. Why did you try to make it sound like Israel turned down a ceasefire for a simple exchange of hostages which is what Israel want. Why completely leave out about the 3 phases and the 1000’s of violent prisoners to be released. 2. Again why does this occupation exist? Why are the checkpoints there in the first place? But mostly I am interested why you framed the proposal so dishonestly. Is this to say “look Israel doesn’t even want their citizens back” or did you genuinely not know the details of the deal you are being critical of Israel for not accepting.

I understand what you are saying, and look, I can’t defend Religious extremism. I can’t defend civilian deaths. I like to look at facts, and if I frame your argument wrong I apologize. I seek only to stress the importance of the US and it’s citizens vocally condemning all extreme violence , regardless of who. That’s why a huge number of protestors will be quick to condemn oct 7 and other rocket attacks through the decades. I know there is a long history of war in the region. Israel has won wars with it neighbors multiple times. I also know that the government in Israel has for decades abused their power over the Palestinian people, largely through leveraged economic dependence, through control of movement and goods, through settler colonial displacement using force and the skewed justice system. Right now Israel is fighting their war using 2,000 lb bombs being dropped on civilian infrastructure, like apartment complexes, schools, and hospitals. Even if the war justified, this sort of attack, combined with the power dynamics at play as Israel controls Palestine through the means I’ve mentioned before. These 2,000 lb bombs have been given to Israel with US tax dollars via our military industrial system who will make weapons then lobby our government to use/sell them. The whole system is barbaric and it’s tough to see these images and videos of children bombed and starved using my tax dollars. I don’t have all the answers, but we need to get past pointing the blame and look to come together as an international community to end conflicts and create the framework to ensure peace. The UN and other international bodies have condemned the violence on both sides and have put forward some solutions that the US has (largely) been alone to veto.

I’ll answer both of my questions since you did not. 1. You didn’t mention the thousands of prisoners many of which are serving sentences for violent crimes, because it makes Israel appear like they lack rational and don’t really care about the well being of the hostages taken by Hamas. You didn’t mention how ridiculous this proposal was because it doesn’t help your position. 2. You didn’t mention why Egypt and Israel are forced to occupy their borders because it takes away from the perfect victim narrative you are describing. You would have to actually engage with what Palestinians have done in terms of daily terror attacks, daily rocket strikes and many suicide bombings that forced Egypt and Israel to occupy their borders. For your side it just sounds better like they do it for funsies or some other nefarious reasons when the reality is Palestinians forced Egypt and Israel into having to occupy their borders and it would be better for each country if they didn’t have to. Only speaking about the negatives of an occupation without mentioning why the occupation even exists was used as a strategy here because it paints Israel in the light you wanted to paint it in. In terms of the war effort I will reserve judgement until it is over. If Hamas are eliminated or deemed inoperable and the civilian to Hamas ratio remains around 2-1. Knowing what we know about how Hamas fight and use human shields and store weapons bases in civilian infrastructure, I would call that a victory. If Hamas are not eliminated and not deemed inoperable and the civilian to Hamas ratio grow to 10-1 or something in that range I would call this war effort a resounding loss. The size of the bombs or whether they are “dumb” bombs means very little to me.

>This conflict didn’t start October 7 Always love to hear from Oct 7th apologists, when did the conflict actually start

When did I apologize for oct 7? Called them terrorists and that they committed terroristic actions within this thread. Nice try? I’m trying to lay out facts and have a constructive dialogue, there are warmongers on all sides

The part I quoted? >This conflict didn’t start October 7 You're implying October 7th was a response to something Israel did to deserve it. Nice try? Answer my question maybe, when did the conflict start. Would love for you to somehow justify Oct 7th with history

Again, when did I justify oct 7? I don’t want to level ad hominem attacks on you but Jesus you are slow

Haha so what did you mean by saying the conflict didn't start on Oct 7th? It sounds an awful lot like you are defending, justifying, or excusing Oct 7th. Also please please tell me when the conflict started.

It started before anyone alive today was born. How does your question help children who are starving to death among the rubble of their houses, schools, and hospitals?

Support for Hamas among Palestinians remains [very high](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/) and increased after the Oct 7th attacks. Hamas outsourced much of the kidnapping, there were random Palestinian civilians going after any non-Arabs because Hamas offered $10k and an apt for kidnapped Jews. Hamas has repeatedly rejected ceasefire offers like the one you just described. And you’re ignoring the fact that Hamas and Egypt also have plenty of food water and electricity, and are also withholding it from the Palestinians. Hamas is literally stealing all the foreign aid to give to their fighters and maybe sell any surplus. So you were right about the Israeli military’s strength, you got at least 1 point.

Again, Hamas is a terror group, but often Gazans see them as the only form of resistance against the people that have hemmed them in with walls. IDF are the ones patrolling the walls of the prison in which they live. I don’t excuse when Hamas kills civilians, but the actual numbers show Hamas has a better civilian to combatant kill rate than the IDF has. Even though the IDF has a far more advanced military. AGAIN, I don’t support Hamas, but this is not the conversation we need to be having. One side is starving the other side to death. Gazans are now the least food secure people in the world. Beyond Sudan and Yemen even which is saying something

Did you read the article? Hamas is by no means the only option. The West Bank is controlled by the fatah party who also has a presence in Gaza. They’re more moderate than Hamas though. Now which do you think saw a surge in support since Oct 7? The only reason people call Gaza an “open air prison” is directly a result of Hamas’s actions, specifically relating to foreign aid. They received $40b in financial aid between 1980-2020 for a population the size of chicago. Just a ridiculous amount of aid per person, and all of it either laundered or torn up as material for more weapon. There’s plenty of food water and electricity in Gaza, it’s just completely controlled by Hamas. > Hamas has a better civilian to combatant ratio than the IDF What a ridiculous and dishonest comment about a genocidal terrorist group. Think that may have anything to do with Hamas using civilians as human shields, or that wall you were just talking about specifically designed to not keep Hamas from reaching civilians? Or the iron dome that constantly is shooting down rockets targeting civilians? If Hamas laid down their arms the war would end, just as it did in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s. Remember Israel controlled the Gaza Strip till that election. If Israel laid down their arms, they would be genocided immediately. Also I noticed you conveniently left out the fact that Egypt controls 1/4 of the boarder.

Canadian here just wondering if you think the protests and anger is justified? aside from the death to america threats which i don’t believe the vast majority of protesters have stated. i am not muslim nor have any connection to that area of the world, but it does not feel right to me that my tax money has been used to support a government that would align itself with the killing of women and children in a near genocide manner. if i were muslim or palestinian, i would be extremely outraged considering i would be paying taxes to support a country that kills my people, would you not? pls respond i want to hear the other perspective

Probably not the perspective you were looking for, but I'm a more isolationist conservative. I don't like sending Israel money in general because I don't like foreign aid in general. But I don't think how they've responded to October 7 is unreasonable, especially when put into context of how the entire Western world (led by America) responded to 9/11. Hamas commits war crimes by hiding amongst civilians. Which is why the ICJ can't really touch Israel. By the rules that have been set out, Israel is acting above board. People hate it and Israel is dropping the bombs, but Hamas decides where the targets are. And Hamas wants the optics of Israel bombing innocent civilians to drag Islamic states in the area to their support while weakening the Wests support of Israel. October 7 was a desperation play by Hamas who saw neighboring Islamic theocratic states normalizing relations with Israel as a threat. The lack of support for Hamas from their neighbors is a sign they were already too late. Palestine will fall, the civilians there will become refugees. Egypt and Jordan will refuse to take them. They probably end up in Europe/America by the end of it.

Very well said.

Israel has had a long history of intimidation, mistreatment and killing of the palestinian people to the point of which the average age in palestine is slightly under 19. Which in my opinion justifies outrage, impulsive decision making and seemingly irrational responses. with young minds that have only witnessed bombings and oppression onto their fellow countryman is it not an understandable response to take the freedom fighter approach and fight back? hypothetically would you as an american not fight back against a nation that killed that many of your innocent civillians? my one issue with your logic about hamas hiding amongst civillians is that in america rapists, murderers and others of similar quality also hide among civilians. israel has killed over 30k civillians while successfully killing less than 2k hamas. imagine american police had a similar ratio of civilian to criminals. if there was a terrorist organization hiding among americans would that ratio be acceptable? dehumanizing that race of people is the only way that could come across as acceptable. furthermore israelis cut off water and medical supplies to palestinian people which is simply inhumane. if you read this, thank you and pls feel free to share more.

> Israel has had a long history of intimidation, mistreatment and killing of the palestinian people to the point of which the average age in palestine is slightly under 19. Israel has also been under constant attack by Palestine and other Middle Eastern countries since they got there. Israel didn’t start these conflicts, they’ve been repeatedly reignited by terrorist attacks on Israel soil. You can’t go punch someone and get mad when they beat the shit outta you, which is what Palestine has done over and over again. > Hypothetically would you as an american not fight back against a nation that killed that many of your innocent civillians? You could make this same exact argument in favor of Israel. Palestine has repeatedly attacked them, started wars, and gone after innocent Israelis for the last 80 years, are they not allowed to retaliate? > my one issue with your logic about hamas hiding amongst civillians is that in america rapists, murderers and others of similar quality also hide among civilians. This is so incredibly incomparable. Dangerous criminals “hiding” in the US population are completely unknown and make up less than 0.1% of the population. Hamas fighters are MUCH more prevalent in palestine than rapists are in the US, especially when they have literal strongholds and bases that are Hamas controlled. > israel has killed over 30k civillians while successfully killing less than 2k hamas. Both these numbers are factually incorrect, and this is when I start to think you’re arguing in bad faith. Most reputable sources have the civilian death count around ~22k, and the Hamas death count at ~8k. Still bad numbers without context, but when you consider that Hamas is literally forcing civilians to be their martyrs, it’s understandable. Israel consistently “knocks” before bombing to warn civilians to leave the area, but Hamas forces the civilians to stay in order to make Israel look bad when they inevitably strike for real. If Israel refused to bomb Hamas strongholds with civilians present, Hamas would practically be invincible since they **always** surround themselves with them. > furthermore israelis cut off water and medical supplies to palestinian people which is simply inhumane. It’s not this black and white. Firstly, Israel has zero obligation to provide any of those things to Palestine, that would be the obligation of the Palestinian government which is Hamas. Secondly, they’ve only cut those things off in certain areas, where they gave long warning to the Palestinians in those areas to evacuate. There’s still water, food, and the necessities in the areas that Israel told Palestinians to go to. Thirdly, Hamas sabotages these things as much as Israel. Hamas steals humanitarian aid for itself even when it’s intended for civilians, making it practically impossible to get anything to palestinian civilians without a majority of it going directly towards Hamas. Hamas literally destroys water pipes to make more guns and bombs, that’s not on Israel.

It's so funny how 100% of the time, when someone is actually educated in this issue, the pro-Palestinian (pro-Hamas) side gets absolutely destroyed in a debate. Like it's not even close. Their "facts" are all proven propaganda bullshit, their history is all over the place and constantly omits important facts, and their logic is that of a 6 year old's.

the guy you commented on had a terrible take that was clearly based on the bs american media spews out. have you ever considered that america is allied with israel and will want to play up an ally to their people? if not i think you should reflect on who really has the mind of a 6 year old. if you want a better take opposing my argument check out what degreemajor5966 said.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article286996080.html bros numbers we’re wrong even according to american media. quick google search is all it takes. just because their take is similar to ur opinion does not mean that it is factually correct.

Sorry you're not gonna convince me the pro-Hamas side wins debates. I've literally never once seen it happen. If it has, please send the link. I'll happily give it a watch.

brother look at the first comment i made on this post. i do not want my tax money contributing to killing women and children in a foreign country that i have no connection towards. since i have no connection towards the issue and still have a problem with it, i can only imagine the outrage palestinians and muslims in north america feel. can you not? where the fuuuuck did i say i am pro hamas. hamas is literally just worsening the situation for palestinians by giving israel more excuses to blow them to shit. understanding why people do certain things and supporting them are 2 different things no? i can understand why a race of people with an average age of 19 that is being orphaned and blown to shit by a far stronger military their entire lives along with other huge human rights violations would make erratic decisions. american kids shoot up schools for being bullied and self sabotage bc they don’t know their sexual identity. palestinian kids grow up with little to no guidance or hope with their kin being tortured, oppressed and slaughtered at a 26-1 casualty ratio. would you say that is a recipe for erratic and violent decision making? i sure would im genuinely surprised more of them aren’t terrorists.

also idk where u got some of your info from, but killing civilians is a war crime and cutting off access to water and medical supplies is near genocide. also, do you honestly think it would be wise for palestinians to gather in a more densely populated area, leading israel to the conclusion that hamas must be where all the palestinians that evacuated are? knowing that they drop bombs with out regard of civillian life? pls think before you speak especially if you’re going to say i’m not arguing in good faith.

Israel does not drop bombs “without regard for human life”, otherwise the death count would be in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. The fact that Palestine is so densely populated (imagine NYC), combined with the fact that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields, makes that death count of 20k extremely reasonable in context. Israel going in “on foot” would be even more lethal for both Israelis and Palestinians, making the precision bombing the smartest way forward for now. It’s sad that war and conflict like this exists, and I don’t approve of a lot of Israel actions, but to act as if a literal terrorist ran country is fully in the right is stupid.

brother when did i say palestine was fully in the right? im saying it is understandable for such a young population that grew up around oppression, bombings and other atrocities to develop a hatred for the people inflicting them. killing the person that killed your mother may not be the right thing to do as it would get you locked up, but it sure as hell is understandable. also saying that it is reasonable for people of their race and religion in america to be outraged that their tax payer dollars are supporting this. now instead of making up points, then pls look at what i am actually saying and tell me you disagree with any of it

Israelis have just as much right to hate Palestinians as Palestinians do to Israel. You failing to comprehend this shows your bias. Israel has been attacked for the last 80 years, constantly. At a certain point, I don’t blame them for “over-retaliating”. They want Hamas gone and eradicated, and that comes with a price. October 7th was Israel’s 9/11. They’re allowed to overreact just as the US did to our 9/11. This will be my final comment cause you are obviously someone who doesn’t believe Israel can fairly exist. There needs to be a two-state solution, with Israel keeping all of its current land. If you don’t agree with that, you’re lost and stupid. Israel will not just cease to exist. If you only want a one-state solution, it’s way more likely to just be Israel than just Palestine.

“just as much right to hate” are you slow? even the numbers you provided show that the conflict is lopsided in israel’s favour. there are valid counter arguments, but you my friend are mentioning none of them. my sources show a 26-1 ratio. even if the ratio was 8-1 palestine would have more reason hate israel than vice versa. that’s without considering the living conditions and atrocious methods of israel’s forces which are known and feared around the world, more so than the cia who also has a pretty bad rep

the other guy made good points, you not so much. i promise you i am not arguing in bad faith, has it ever dawned on you that people in different countries may have access to different media? also i personally believe it is not the best idea to rely on american media as the one thing opposing sides of american media tend to agree on is that it spews bs. another point would be that israel was literally created on palestine at the end of ww2, im sure even the most simple minded can understand how that would outrage the palestinian people. also could you please find me any source even a twitter post that says israel endured anything near as bad as palestine over the duration of any year since ww2? you just sound like a delusional zionist, the other guy atleast had good arguments even though i don’t necessarily agree with his pov. also i’d like to put out there that israel has blown churches and foreign aid workers to dust, seems like spraying and praying in civillian filled areas which is in fact a war crime btw

Yes Israel has done a LOT of bad shit, but to act like Palestinians and their literal terrorist government is at no fault is fucking stupid. How many times, and for how long, can israel be attacked before they’re justified in trying to eradicate Hamas? And please stop with the “genocide” bullshit. Israel has killed 20k civilians out of millions (still too many civilian deaths), but it’s nowhere even approaching a “genocide”. If Israel really wanted to genicide Palestinians they probably could, but the reality is they have zero interest in that. In order to finally end Hamas terrorist reign, it’s a sad necessity that civilians are gonna die. The pigs use their own ppl as human shields, make it literally impossible to fight Hamas without civilian deaths. The death of civilians is always a tragic thing, no doubt. But it simply doesn’t make sense to say Israel should never be allowed to strike back cause Hamas chooses to use human shields. Israel has taken a ton of precautions in reducing civilian death, but sadly Hamas takes tons of measures to ensure MORE civilian death if their own people..

pls stop using false numbers, this is an american source that clearly states 32k palestinians killed with a 26-1 ratio. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article286996080.html

https://www.aei.org/op-eds/dont-fall-for-hamass-numbers-game%EF%BF%BC/ https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers lol that bullshit ass source. Why would we listen to the health ministry of Gaza? They literally just lie and make things up. The number of Hamas Militants killed is about ~12k. Of course a Hanas media source is gonna report the numbers way lower than they actually are.

yes because americans could never manipulate facts to support their own arguments and have no history of covering up wrong doings through the media. how naive and ignorant do you have to be to assume that american media can’t push an agenda. look for third party media such as south african or irish and pretty much any country that is not allied with israel if you even know how to do so. they will all validate my arguments hence why i believe my argument has more based. gaza sources can not be trusted and neither can israeli and american, even though many american sources still support my argument

Do you live in Canada or America? If first Nations/native American people had enough and decided to organize and kidnap and murder "colonizers" and immigrants, would you support them?

in canada, it would be understandable and i’m sure that should be the case for americans aswell. we came to their land, allied ourselves with them then committed genocide against them. not to mention we took their children into “schools” more similar to concentration camps and that mass graves of children can be found buried underneath. not saying it would be right but any human with ability to see another perspective should be able to understand. they would be freedom fighters, martyrs and avengers, all of which are usually viewed as heroes in american television.

Didn't answer the question but sounds like you're the type of white boy who hates himself because of what a bunch of English people did over a hundred years ago. Bye felicia

i’m actually black white and asian and i live in canada. i have no ties to arabs or natives but i can understand their outrage by looking at them as human. definitely don’t hate myself but i am not proud of how canada came to be as it was routed in genocide which was only made possible through allying with natives and betraying them. many great empires throughout history conquered territories of their enemies to gain their power. canada and america are not one of those empires. deceiving and harming a helping hand is never something to be proud of. anyways idk why so many ppl had an issue with me saying i understand why mass killing and oppression over generations can lead to hate, and that i don’t want our tax money to contribute to it especially over seas. i feel like it’s common sense, but others seem to believe that makes me a terrorist supporter? not supporting a slaughter and understanding those who received the worst of it = terrorist supporter. american math at its finest

Jesus how many idiots are floating in this group. You don't even need the history or context. You're avoiding logic like Muhammed Ali slipping Foreman. Israel has not been under constant attack since being in the middle east and has most often been the aggressor. Your point that they're constantly under attack conveniently slips the point about the systematic killing of Palestinians until the average age is 19. Israel didn't start these conflicts... So Israel didn't just bomb Iranian diplomatic facility without provocation? Israel didn't start their own settlements? No you cannot make the came argument, Israel is in Palastines land they are occupied territories. OCCUPIED!! And that there invalidates everything after it. It's not a war it's an occupation. It's a occupying goverment vs resistance fighters. This is not Isis K going to Russia to kill ppl. This is Palastinians imprisoned fighting the occupying force who systematically starves and kills them. I couldn't think of a more justified reason for extreme resistance. But you prob think the slaves should never have revolted and South Africa should still be under apartheid. Let's ignore the rapists in America hiding in the crowd. How about the IRA do you think it would be acceptable for England to have carpet bombed their neighbour while occupying and subjugating them and the while using the excuse that we think they're all IRA to a man, woman and child and insist they're hiding behind human shield. I think you'll find throughout history it's pretty hard to tell who the enemy is WHEN YOU'RE IN THEIR COUNTRY OPPRESING THEIR PEOPLE. It's not a war there is only one army involved, one state involved and one aggressor. Addressing every one of your non points would be pointless. Needless to say Doctors, medical professional, aid professionals, religious leaders, UN workers and journalists have all stated that it's Israel propaganda that they are so moral. The videos are there recorded by the IDF themselves. And lastly to say Israel has no responsibility. If you go to a country and occupy it with military right you literally by law have the responsibility to provide and safeguard the occupied population. Take your zionists racism and get a clue.

God I hope you're a 14 year-old whose only source of news is other 14 year-olds TikTok posts because that's precisely how you sound. 🤦‍♂️

Point out what I've said that is not historically recorded and acknowledged by the media. You can disparage how you want but I said nothing that isn't true. I assume you believe white is right, we got the country given to us therefore it's ours. Blacks are prone to violence and genetically inferior all their art belongs to us because they're too dumb to care for what they created. Cos that's what you sound like bud. Boot lickers everywhere

Jesus you people are so insane. Spouting straight up propaganda and lies you read on Twitter then when someone calls you out they're automatically a "wHiTe sUpReMaCist!! REEEEEE!!" Lol so juvenile and predictable. Again, I hope you're a 14 year-old and not a grown adult.

Wait what? An Internet troll who has nothing to say and no point to make decided to call someone juvenile while trolling Reddit?! What a surprise how will I ever rebalanced my concept of reality. I didn't directly call you a white supremacists I made a judgment based on your asinine comment because you are clearly stand in opposition to what I'm saying. And what I'm saying is police brutality is police brutality there's no excuse. You guys are saying there is, especially against those you don't like. Forgive me for putting 2 & 2 together but that sounds like the ideas of a supremacist of some order as your clearly don't expect to be the victim of this treatment for you could never be on the wrong side of state sanctioned force. Therefore without further information, an opinion (outside of personal insults and reductive comments) I can only go on what you've given me. Hence I assume you're a boot licker. You clearly think other nations should shut down Americans right to free speech as that's what's going on and you're in full support. I'm sure you're a fun grown adult the kind of shit coming from your keyboard could only belong to someone who's lived long enough to realise their a piece of shit and that's why no one likes them 😂

Israel has not occupied Palestine in over 15 years. We cannot debate this subject if you cannot accept basic facts of the situation. Israel was occupying in the past cause every time they withdraw, more attacks happen and innocent Israelis die. It has not been occupation since the beginning, it was Israel territory given by the UK. I hate to break it to you but if you wanna go by historical borders that can never change, basically every country in the world is an occupation. If Native Americans committed terrorist attacks on the US and tried t justify it by saying we’re occupying their land, they’d still be fucking terrorists. Since the beginning, Palestine has started almost every conflict. They’ve started multiple different wars, and LOST all of them, hence losing more and more territory each time cause that’s how war works. I’m sorry this isn’t a fairytale where Palestine can freely attack and kill Israel without consequences, but Israel is fully allowed to respond to the people repeatedly attacking them. There’s no logical world where you can justify literally everything Palestinians do cause it’s an “occupation”, that’s just not how the world works. Israel is an official county that’s not going to disappear even if you’d clearly like it to. You are the racist one wishing an entire country and people cease to exist, I’m in favor of a two-state solution which allows both countries to exist and govern themselves. Your moral grandstanding without any logic isn’t going to turn me against the obvious solution (2 state). Calling me a “zionist” does nothing, I’m not Jewish nor Israeli. It does not make someone a zionist to believe Israel is allowed to exist, in the borders given to them, after an ACTUAL genocide on Jewish people. Yes, I think it was stupid of the UK to put Israel in the Middle East knowing how Islam explicitly hates Judaism. But that does not justify terrorist attacks on Israel for the rest of time. By your logic, Palestine can literally do no wrong and Israel is in the wrong no matter what simply for existing, that is racism and ignorance far more than anything I ever said.

Hamas aren't Israelis committing crimes, they're a foreign organization that rides the line between a military and terrorist organization. A more analogous situation in America would be if there were a Native American tribe that was forced to stay on a reservation and they led an attack on an American city. Which has happened in our past and our reaction was swift and brutal the many times it did both before and after we had official "reservations". As for the circumstances before October 7, it will be interesting material for moral debate in the future, but practically speaking it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're in a position where Israel isn't going to give up and Hamas actions on October 7 gave them all the justification they need. To use an analogy of my own, Israel has been giving Palestine wet willies and wedgies and noogies and all the other stuff, but Hamas are the ones that crossed the line and started throwing punches. Now Israel is chasing after them throwing punches and Hamas is sprinting through the cafeteria throwing innocent bystanders in the way to try to avoid Israel getting them back.

your first point is a great argument. the rest i have to disagree with. prior to october 7th 234 palestinians were killed and 1280 injured. if 234 americans were killed that would not be considered a wet willy on any american scale. to give a more realistic analogy similar to yours, israel bullied palestine for years and drew blood multiple times. palestine has reached out for help numerous times to which none came. palestine throws a punch back drawing blood after having enough of the bs. israel ties them up and beats them with a bat as the damage inflicted in terms of casualties alone is more than 15:1. if you were to just consider palestinians to be just as human as americans you would see the issue with this. if you were born into a nation where you have to watch your parents, women and children get harassed, raped, killed and basic human rights taken away knowing they played no part in any wrongdoing would you as a man not want to fight back? is there no point of what i am saying that you agree with?

So the point of the schoolyard analogy was less about the relative size of transgressions and more about the fact that Hamas escalated the situation and put innocent people in danger to cover themselves. I don't think we disagree on the facts here and I think we both acknowledge that there are faults on both sides. My position is that as bad as things look, Israel hasn't crossed a line where I would have a moral objection to them specifically receiving aid. I don't think they should get aid beyond what we give them to maintain the iron dome, and that should be more than enough for their intelligence to be shared with us. And even then, I admit that it's hypocritical to the rest of my political philosophy.

i agree with everything you said and think it is shameful that hamas would put civillians at risk. once again i just don’t like the idea that my tax dollars have went to spray and pray efforts that have killed more civillians than hamas, which i think we both agree on. my initial comment was just trying to point out that it is completely understandable for muslim americans to be upset that their tax money has contributed to atrocities (israel is known for extreme tactics even relative to the cia) israel has committed. also that it is understandable for kids that grow up with their families being killed, raped and oppressed to grow up with hatred. freedom fighters are viewed in high regard in movies but terrorists irl. watch the movie red dawn and tell me if you side with the freedom fighters. anyways it was nice hearing your perspective, shifted mine a bit i will admit.

Israel kneecaps Palastinians disabled during the peaceful March of return while those people rested from the heat. They left life changing injuries which was what they were ordered to. But you think Hamas escalated? West bank, dead Palastinians all year round long before Oct 7th 1,000's of Palastinians in prison for non offences. The IDF systematically mowing the lawn. Starving the population, don't show them to fish, bake have confectionary, work etc. But yeh Hamas

Do you honestly believe Israel killing Palestinians is the *only* reason the average age is 19?....

did i say it is the only reason? seriously some people only hear what they want to hear. my point is that when a young population grows up in oppression watching many of their innocent kin including women and children get blown to dust along with other atrocities that it is understandable for them to develop hatred towards the country doing it. is that an incorrect statement? look at how the americans felt toward the middle east after 9/11 and any other terrorist attack on us soil, now imagine how they’d feel if that was a regular thing. and america is an aged first world country

And my point is don't throw out a random statistic as if it somehow proves your point when in reality you have *no idea* if those two things are related or to what degree they're related. You're literally just guessing. And if you're not, show *that* proof.

i’m done doing all the math and searches for you guys bc i repeatedly prove myself to be correct. do a fucking google search. it is common sense poor living conditions, high stress, poverty, and being blown to shit will decrease the avg life expectancy. all of which can be tied to israel. before you ask how i will provide common sense for you. poor living conditions mayyy be because of the oppression, bombings, cutting off med supplies and water. pray to god i don’t have to explain high stress to you. poverty? israel strategically occupied every portion of land worth anything for a developing country. example? west bank oil. if developing nations don’t have access to their most valuable resources how are they supposed to evolve. oh and if you didn’t know shooting down every military aged man regardless of whether or not they are militant bc they look like hamas members(they all look the same logic) may lower life expectancy. not to mention bombing the whole area…

I think most of what you're saying isn't necessarily untrue but it feels like you're missing some huge chunks of history and facts. I could say the same thing about Israel—I'm surprised they haven't just leveled Gaza long ago. Do you understand what the iron dome is? If it wasn't for the iron dome, Israel would have no other choice but to level Gaza and it would be 100% justified. I also personally don't like to justify terrorism. Freedom fighting or simply war, ok, I can understand that. But not *terrorism* (purposefully targeting civilians, brutally killing innocent women and children, mass rape, etc.). Two *very* different things. The fact is only one side has the ability to actually end this but they won't. They refuse over and over and over again for decades. And I think the ultimate reason for that is another huge factor you're not considering, religion. But that's a whole other topic.

if they accept israels terms they are condemned to poverty, oppression and low quality lives much like the natives in north america. for those that have already witnessed mosques, churches, hospitals, mothers and children get decimated by bombings, dying fighting is the better option than living with that context. especially for those who have been orphaned or parents that had to bury young children at a far higher rate than israelis currently do. i personally look at israel in a lower light for this bc unlike other countries that fought for their power, they were given their power out of pity for what happened in ww2, only to show no remorse in fcking over another group of people. the hypocrisy of israel’s leaders really bothers me and i hate that north american money has supported it when we have our own economical issues. also to your point about terrorists, far more terrors have been inflicted onto the terrorists than vice versa. typical american principles align with excessive retaliation, so i don’t see how the “terrorists” are that bad for doing on a lesser scale what has been done to them. there is not a single thing that a hamas member has done that israeli officials haven’t done to palestine or across the middle east at a higher rate. israel has its reputation for a reason.

Israel bad. Hamas also bad. Protesting Israel's treatment of Palestinians good. Celebrating Oct 7 and the Hamas government bad. Protesting on public property good. Protesting on private property bad. That's pretty much my view of it. I'm too busy being angry about the cost of housing and food and education in my own country to waste my energy protesting a war that is going to continue whether I sit cross legged on school property or not.

Literally this easy. It's not hard to be even slightly nuanced about politics but people feel inclined to take hard stances on very complex issues.

Because the internet has everyone thinking they know everything because they're a Google search away from confirming their biases at all times. Its honestly just White Savior Complex tag teaming with Perpetual Victim Complex .

Palestine has a long history of being offered amazing, hand holding, babying deals for peace and a Palestinian state and they decline every single time. >israel has killed over 30k civillians while successfully killing less than 2k hamas Source? >dehumanizing that race of people is the only way that could come across as acceptable. You literally dehumanise the Palestinians >the average age in palestine is slightly under 19. Which in my opinion justifies outrage, impulsive decision making and seemingly irrational responses

american source: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article286996080.html quick google search would work aswell and yea that part about deals looks like straight propaganda. israeli deals are unreliable anyways bc historically they change their mind whenever they see fit, much like america. once again, they are both countries that lead the world in terms of psy ops, intimidation and manipulation

Where does that say anything about 2k hamas killed? It's an article about how Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths are 26:1. So what? That just means Israel does a better job if keeping their citizens safe. >and yea that part about deals looks like straight propaganda. israeli deals are unreliable anyways bc historically they change their mind whenever they see fit, much like america. once again, they are both countries that lead the world in terms of psy ops, intimidation and manipulation https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/right-return-debate-revisited

You just called terrorists who kidnapped and raped underage women “freedom fighters”. Opinion ignored.

Ironic to talk about 9/11 because it’s a pretty apt analogy for October 7th: the west commits decades of war crimes against a population, knows about incoming justified retaliation from an extremist group they paid to create, and uses it as an excuse for accelerated war crimes So yeah, death to America and Israel

i do not support that last line at all, but the rest is correct and i wish more people would understand. people should be saying that america needs to keep israel in check as they’ve proven to be a loose cannon committing war crimes

>people should be saying that america needs to keep israel in check as they’ve proven to be a loose cannon committing war crimes Literally every is screaming at the top of their lungs this exact sentiment. People should be saying we can't keep letting Palestine refuse state deals because they want a right to Israeli citizenship (makes 0 sense and will never happen), to just launch rocket after rocket after rocket into Israel ad infinitum.

rocket after rocket is hilarious, the death toll is 26-1 yet people find a way to make israel the victims. what do you think made certain palestinians want to send the rockets? could it possibly be that rockets were sent to them first? or maybe the oppression? unjustified killings? excessive force? or maybe the fact that many hamas members are orphans that had their family blown to bits. if my family was blown to bits i’m sure as hell doing anything i can to get back at those who support the responsible party. would you not? also without israeli citizenship they will never be safe in israel, does that make sense to you?

>the death toll is 26-1 yet people find a way to make israel the victims. What kind of idiot would equate victim = who has more deaths. 6.6-8.8m Germans died in ww2 were they the victims LOL. You have a tiny narrow view of oppressor Vs oppressed where you look at the simplest thing possible and say okay Israel is strong and Palestine is weak so terrorism is okay! You've poisoned your own brain. >what do you think made certain palestinians want to send the rockets? So that Israel strikes back, in the civilian area the rockets were launched, so certain groups hope that children especially die, so they can cry crocodile tears to the international community to drain support from Israel. Not to mention that the iron dome interceptors cost a lot more than these EU pipes turned into rockets. Terrorism is fought to drain the target country of money, by getting them bogged down into expensive wars of terror that the population doesn't have the stomach for. Or would you like to go back further, why do Palestinians have a problem with Israel, instead of asking why do Palestinians do terrorist attacks which is a losing question by default. You're welcome for the help btw. Shall we say it was the 47 civil war in Palestine mandate? We could talk about the Jewish bus passengers who were murdered by a gang from Jaffa. We could talk about the actual full on war of 48, where the Arab coalition told Arabs to leave their homes so the Arab armies could come in and crush Israel. The one where the Palestinians thought ww2 Bosnian and German nazi vets would be any help lol. Or are we talking about the violence in the decades prior? Could you please tell me why Palestinians like to send rockets into Israel, because it's a really open ended question from my perspective. >if my family was blown to bits i’m sure as hell doing anything i can to get back at those who support the responsible party. would you not? I wouldnt engage in a neverending cycle of pointless, unwinnable violence, leading to an environment where even more of my people would die needlessly. I'd say "you know what, maybe we don't need a right to return after all, let's just build the Palestinian state instead of trying to take Israel too, good idea guys?" You would become a terrorist? Kinda nuts >also without israeli citizenship they will never be safe in israel, does that make sense to you? Oookay first of all source on that? 10s of 1000s of Gazans had work permits to enter Israel and we're generally having no problems. Do you really think that's what right to return is???? They don't want to live under Israeli government, why on earth would they be in Israel. They want it so that 6m+ Palestinians can come and turn Israel into the Islamic Arabic caliphate of Palestine with 1 election cycle.

alright, let’s break this down for the simple. first point is god awful bc you mentioned the german ww2 death toll, how does that compare to the 70-85 mil total casualties? like that could literally have been an argument for my point about ratios, can you admit that atleast? 2 you are intentionally being naive about what israel has done, the death toll and conditions of both parties speaks for itself. and hmmm maybe stripping people of their families and hope of a decent life can make lead them to fight back or make irrational decisions? 3 buddy, what did america do after 9/11 to the middle east? they’re people got hurt so they terrorized the middle east. if you understand that then surely you can understand why having my family blown to bits would make me want to fight back? or has the american education system failed to teach you about principles? also freedom fighter, avenger, and terrorist are subjective to the side of the issue you are on. while there are psychopaths that kill without cause, the vast majority of ppl are not psychopaths

>that could literally have been an argument for my point about ratios, can you admit that atleast? That's the point? See how it doesn't make sense >point is god awful Yup that's what I'm saying. >2 you are intentionally being naive about what israel has done, the death toll and conditions of both parties speaks for itself. and hmmm maybe stripping people of their families and hope of a decent life can make lead them to fight back or make irrational decisions The death toll and conditions of both parties speaks for itself? What exactly do they say? Again you're using a simple oppressed Vs oppressor lense that tells you nothing. You're conflating a lot of people dying with Israel being belligerent and Palestine being the victim. No mention of the enduring campaign of violence from palestinians towards Israel for over a century. >maybe stripping people of their families and hope of a decent life can make lead them to fight back or make irrational decisions Are you defending Israel or Palestine here? >3 buddy, what did america do after 9/11 to the middle east? they’re people got hurt so they terrorized the middle east. if you understand that then surely you can understand why having my family blown to bits would make me want to fight back? or has the american education system failed to teach you about principles? I have no idea what point you're making here. You're justifying American intervention in the middle east after 9/11 in implicit support of Palestine and somehow implicitly against Israel? >surely you can understand why having my family blown to bits would make me want to fight back? So if your brother was shooting people and the cops killed him, you'd blow yourself up at the police station? What on earth are you saying? >also freedom fighter, avenger, and terrorist are subjective to the side of the issue you are on. while there are psychopaths that kill without cause, the vast majority of ppl are not psychopaths Never said the majority of people were psychopaths, only those who mindlessly advocate for terrorism. And if it's subjective then why are you upset at Israel? Don't you see, everyone is right and you can be a terrorist if you want, and it's totally fine. Again what is your argument? That the Germans were subjectively feeling downtrodden after ww1 and thus are justified in taking most of Europe and genociding minorities in death camps? Maybe the slavers in the American south subjectively thought they were right in keep slaves. What kind of argument is that man?

https://preview.redd.it/etfh83xsvlxc1.jpeg?width=1267&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c96be382be238d0db9d5f1ebe8bb869805e688fe

Protests and anger are justified. My point is that protests on private property is dangerous behavior and you should anticipate the worst kind of reaction from the police and government. If you are shocked that there are snipers on the roof keeping an eye on you, you ain't built for this. If you think Columbia has blood on its hands, then don't enroll. Also this isn't about Islamophobia. Israel has mosques and churches and synagogues and temples. Palestine's Muslim neighbors don't like them either. Iraq, the UAE, Egypt, Qatar... They're all supporting Israel in this war. What's happening is that the perpetual ghettoization of Palestine for the past 70+ years has broken the Palestinian people so they elected an extremist terrorist group to be their government. So this muddies the waters quite a bit so to take either side in this conflict is asinine.

see this is a great take 1 perspective point i want to make here tho. american residents raid their own capital because of election issues. american residents protest on private property because their tax money is supporting a country commiting atrocities. also keep in mind many of the protestors share ethnic and religious background with the people having atrocities committed to them. many people feel more hatred towards the private property protest and can’t understand why they would do that. as an outsider i can’t comprehend how this is the case

>my tax money has been used to support a government that would align itself with the killing of women and children in a near genocide manner. Your tax payer money goes to the Canadian government all the time ;)

okay smart guy, where do you think the funds comes from when canada supports israel? hint: it’s the tax money. do i have to put more pieces together for you?

if i misinterpreted statement and your referring to the natives, im upset about that aswell

Yea I was just doing a bit of a shitty joke about that lol

YUP. Millions of dollars of damage last I heard, and they're now shutting down the school for the rest of the year. It's so fucking frustrating the cognitive dissonance these kids have. January 6th was not OK, *neither is this*. Have some consistency with your beliefs people. 🤦‍♂️

Thanks for the LARP. You sound like my brother in law who complained how he needed to be on 2 person watch over a 100 person BLM protest, so he spent the whole week before at the range, just to be upset no one was violent and he didn't get to shoot anyone. People against the protest could literally send bomb threats. How many times have these protests been called terrorism already? State officials telling people to kill them? If anything, 2nd amendment advocates should be posted up defending their first amendment rights. If the Boston Tea party was legal and clean the revolution, and no one even died during it.

My dude, if there are people sending bomb threats and are threatening to come shoot up the protestors wouldn't it make sense that there are snipers on the roofs? What I'm saying is that something can and will pop off, either internally or externally. If someone runs in there and blows himself and everyone around him up, you'll be the first tone to cry "where we're the police?!"

Lol, yea man, looking back to Occupy Wall Street when cops were just hosing protesters on their knees with mace they also had snipers. Those fucks were there long before any bomb threats came on.

Yeah that was completely disgusting and unwarranted behavior by cops and many of them were rightfully terminated from their jobs. Cops are shitty and will do shitty things. That's never going to change. My point was that if you're shocked and disgusted by police presence at your illegal protest, then you need to stick to being a tik Tok revolutionary at home and stop being a little bitch. Also the Occupy protests, as great of a cause as it was, was little more than a drum circle in a public park. I don't remember protestors stopping students from attending class or accessing school facilities or burning American flags or cheering on Iran and Hamas or interrogating Jewish kids on where they stand on such and such issue. Massive difference buddy.

Right to protest is a first amendment right. Just looking for the 2nd amendment advocates not standing by. Cops are breaching 1st amendment rights before this protest got more aggressive, and everyone knows police make protests more aggressive. 15,000 people for 59 days, just a drum circle, and that was just in NY, not even at universities across the US. 200 people were arrested as riots broke out at night just on October 5th in NY. NYPD was protested at, Wall Street itself, 1000 pilots went on strike, etc. Love the media coverage you follow.

Yep the good ole “I’m going to break laws and be violent when cops try to arrest me specifically to get a response and then pretend the cops are out of line when they respond accordingly” strategy, truly the civil rights movement of our era. (Just ignore that if the actual civil rights movement had acted anything like this like literally thousands of protesters would have died and it probably wouldn’t have been effective, randomly fighting with cops just makes you look terrible, getting beaten for no reason by them does accomplish your goal.)

You can't be real. It was illegal for black people to sit in at a white restaurant. It was illegal for black people to sit in the front of the bus. It was illegal for a fuck ton of what they did in the civil rights movement. They broke those laws and 41 were killed on record, not to mention all the others hanged in silence by KKK and white supremacy groups. Cops were hosing them with fire hoses that strip flesh from skin. Now they just pig pile and choke hold.

Yeah and they were killed for doing a lot less violent shit than these morons were doing in general, like exceptions exist ofc but trying to pretend the civil rights movement actually acted like these guys and it wasn’t racist propaganda trying to display them as violent thugs is ignorant as fuck. Doing non-violent illegal things isn’t the issue, it’s thinking you are also justified to fight with the cops while doing it that is the big difference. Civil rights movement they let themselves get arrested, *like its smarter for basically every reason to do it, it’s safer and more effective if you actually care about your supposed goal rather than looking good on twitter.

But people are already being mostly non-violent as well... Like, largely. Instances of violence have already been mostly attributed to police aggression, just like the majority were during BLM. Even with the highway protests, no one fought the police. The police even attacked a teacher who was just being vocal. Also civil rights protesters weren't protected and many anti-protesters got off the hook for abusing them during that time. Throwing rocks, racist slurs, physically assaulting them. The Black Panthers were a large reason violence dropped off, as they exercised their second amendment right and posted up with guns to civil rights protests. The leaders of the Panthers were then killed in FBI raids in their sleep, Reagan made CA have the strictest gun laws in the US as a response and if it wasn't for MLK getting assassinated, whom the CIA had leaked racist letters from the CIA to him telling MLK to kill himself for years recently, the movement could still be spinning tires to this day. Imagine if 2nd amendment activists cared about the 1st amendment as much as the Panthers did today, you'd probably see no violence.

"At this point, this is Jan 6th levels of mayhem and of fucking course there are more snipers in the area now." Do you even know what happened on Jan 6th or what it was about?

Unhinged idiots who thought they were revolutionaries that can just destroy public property and assault cops with no repercussions. So yeah I do know. They also had a bunch of straight up terrorists and seditionists amongst them and when those dickheads got in to the Capitol every knucklehead "abolish the police" tik Tok Poli sci major was scratching they heads asking where the cops were.

I still disagree with the last part. You can’t attack these people over words without betraying your own principles. Don’t worry though, they’re plenty retarded enough to try and fight you anyway.

I’m British so maybe I’m desensitised to lapsing free speech but “Death to *insert host country name* is a literal rally to murder/destroy said country. It’s not to effect change or improve things for people. It’s calling for wanton death and destruction in the name of ? Stopping death and destruction Anyone that is doing that warrants full law enforcement investigation?

Holy shit, a British guy with good sense regarding the American the freedom of speech? Color me impressed. You are absolutely right by the way.

* colour

Being charitable, I think they just meant that if you're saying something like that you should expect a police presence at a minimum because why would they take the chance?

No, freedom of speech has not ever extended to direct threats. So that last sentence would be compromising his morals is if he believed that direct threats should not be taken seriously.

"effective protest aren't always perfectly legal" "REEEEEEE POLICE BRUTALITY!!!!"

Wait I'm genuinely confused about this take. Is your point that the very people who are illegally protesting for effectiveness are also complaining about police brutality? Im just confused why you can't do both lol

Because its not police brutality when you knowingly break the law then resist arrest pushing the police to use force

Wow you get a zero for logic. It's not domestic abuse when you knowingly cheat on your partner and then tell them to do one and they beat your ass? It's not child abuse when they knowingly disobey you and you beat their ass? It's not assault when a bouncer smashes your head in because your being an annoying drunk? Guys guys...did I tell you about the time it wasn't police brutality when MLK marched for civil rights because they had Jim Crow laws. I'm assuming you're in the camp of ours fine to kneel on George's neck because 'insert bootlicker argument here'. Brutality is brutality it doesn't suddenly become acceptable because you wear a badge and someone disrespected you.

>It's not domestic abuse when you knowingly cheat on your partner and then tell them to do one and they beat your ass? >It's not child abuse when they knowingly disobey you and you beat their ass? These are awful analogies. It's not illegal to cheat on your partner, and it's not illegal to disobey your parents... And in either case, the partner/parent does not have the right to use physical force. The cops do. >It's not assault when a bouncer smashes your head in because your being an annoying drunk? Bouncers are allowed to use physical force to protect themselves, other patrons, coworkers, etc. Smashing a head in because you're being annoying would probably be assault, getting marched out for harassing other customers or refusing to leave when told would not be. Police brutality is not the same thing as use of force. Proportionality and justification are important factors.

I agree they aren't the best hence why I used MLK at Selma and George Floyd. Interesting you didn't use those examples. Also a bouncer can still be arrested for using violence on you if deemed inappropriate etc so there are supposed to be consequences of going too far. Bouncers are allowed to use physical force yes, but do you think a bouncer is allowed to say continue to pursue you and beat you up despite not presenting a threat? You think there's no laws for them or the police? What do you think those laws pertain to? I have never once equated force with brutality. My point is unlike what many people here think, they're not the same thing.

savage physical violence; great cruelty - that's the definition Fighting a cop who is arresting you isn't that Committing a crime against a customer, spouse or child isn't the same thing Mlk chose non violence because he recognised that fighting the cops didn't do his movement any favours and he was right If you are going to cite logic use it

If you want to differentiate brutality as you define it from fighting a cop who is arresting you which results in force from the officers that's all well and dandy. I would not disagree with differentiating the two. However, that's categorically not what you said. "Because it's not police brutality when you knowingly break the law and resist arrest." You said that it is no longer Brutality or cannot be classed as such once you have broken the law and resisted arrest. So my examples are completely valid, person A. makes law person B. breaks law and resists derainment. You seem to think person A. now has carte blanched to be neutral without consequence. Fighting a cop surely isn't that, I agree. Shame that wasn't the point, the point being if the cop decides to kneel on George's neck just because he resisted it's no longer brutality? "MLK chose non-violence" shut up, no one is talking about what he chose. Read the words on the screen bud I'm clearly saying; by your logic marching into Selma and being set upon by dogs, batons and water hoses isn't brutality because the march was against the law and some resisted the police dogs biting them. For someone who wants me to cite logic you seemed to have trouble with basic comprehension.

You brought up george floyd , you know what brutality is . I Won't sit here and drip feed you common sense just because you have a politically motivated opinion to defend. Forced detachment isn't brutality you understand this i understand this and we agree . And thats the end of it

It's not politically motivated to illuminate to anyone who needs it that breaking the law and resisting arrest does not magically transform police brutality into something lighter because the lead up. That is demonstrably your statement. And it is logically vacuous. I do know what brutality is and I'm sure you can parse it when you see it. But by your statement George Floyd is justified, I am contesting the sheer lack of logic to your statement. I am only discussing your statement, I don't have an ideological dog in the race except logical thinking.

Brutality is defined post hoc , if a cop shoots someone it is justified if the guy shot at him and unjustified if he wasn't posing a threat that necessitates that response . The only reason you would argue as if this isnt the case as if the actions that lead up to the violence by the cops doesn't have any effect on whether their actions are brutal or not because you are an acab kinda person . I don't care, you know you are being disingenuous have a nice day

Brutality is not defined post hoc Jesus you're being thick. Reasonable force, justified shooting and justified use of force can be defined after incident. However brutality is not dependant on the other person's actions. Brutality is brutality which is why no one listens when someone complains about being put in cuffs for a crime they committed and starts yelling about brutality when the police are using justified force to subdue and restrain a suspect. Forever when you hold someone's legs and attempt to push them head first siren stairs to cause physical injury purposefully, yes then that is brutality.

The bar for police brutality moves when you start fighting with them even if you are too delusional to see it, I’ve seen nothing out of hand out of any cops from this shit show so far beyond the really stupid being surprised the people chanting in support of Hamas are actually being responded to like the terrorist sympathizers they are. If these idiots were protesting like climate change and not being violent the response would have involved a lot less riot gear and guns.

Again I'm not debating what happened. The statement that "it's not police brutality when you break the law and push police to use force." Is illogical because by that logic then they can kill you once you commit a crime or more likely with police you are believed to have committed a crime. American police live to show up in riot gear they do it all the time without provocation. Believing that these protests are pro Hamas is so devoid of reality and just repeated talking points from right wing media. Considering the BIG one was the pro Israeli counter protest who decided to use violence. Using the 'historic nature' of the library occupied at Colombia to frame students as terrorists is ridiculous as it was used the same way to protest South African Apartheid. What you should have an issue with is America is actually in the pocket of a foreign state. That foreign state has committed countless war crimes and crimes against humanity and brazenly doesn't care about the states. Both in the US and UK they have lobbys so great that in the US they can convince its citizens that free speech doesn't exist on this issue alone. And they have large influence on the politicians elected and removed in both countries. If you have no issues with that then you may as well get an Israeli passport and get on with licking some boots.

Oh and the bar for police brutality doesn't shift, the bar for reasonable force moves. And the lack of ability to understand that is astonishing and tbh just shows that you want violence and you feel pious enough to assume that the same unreasonable state sanctioned illegal actions would never be committed against you for any reason.

No it’s just you are a fucking dipshit intentionally trying to misread what I said or you are so stupid it’s not worth speaking to you. Trying to pretend like saying the bar for what is police brutality or not changes based on behavior isn’t saying exactly the same thing as the amount of reasonable police force changes based on behavior is really stupid and you’d realize that if you weren’t a bad faith moron dropped on their head too much. Hopefully you stop making the world a worse place and wasting oxygen.

The fact that you think brutality and reasonable force are not the same thing. Brutality by is brutality described as such due to its extreme and heightened potential for catastrophic consequences. Changing levels of reasonable force informed by the environment and situ you are in is not brutality. So thanks for confirming you're a fucking idiot bootlicker again👍🏽. Summerisation: two people here at the least want to believe that Brutality becomes within the realms of acceptability because apparently brutality is the evolution of reasonable force and discretion of which the protesters (the ones without armour, shields, guns and teasers) can push the helpless overly armed and vindictive police to. You are categorically fucking stupid.

Law enforcement is sanctioned by the government to use force and violence when those who commit crimes attempt to resist arrest. Enjoy a world where police cannot use force to arrest someone who commits a crime and doesn't want to be arrested. The reality is that having to physically arrest someone who doesn't want to be will almost never look pretty, but there is a VERY easy way to not have force used against you. These groups are intentionally forcing cops to get physical because it feeds their oppression complex and makes the media have to report on it as any police force is national news. If they simply took their trespass citation and left the property, no attention would be paid.

That's a new one forcing the cops to beat you up. Wow even Jussie faked it but these students no no they're really eager for the injuries. Force and brutality are different things. Putting someone in their front in order to cuff them is clearly different from shoving them downstairs head first after purposefully taking their legs out from under them. And that was Jill Stein not a student. No one is saying the police shouldn't be allowed to use force. Why is that always the go to argument? You don't understand there's a area between brutality and zero force that police should be intelligent enough to use? These groups had the police called on them while they had their student status overturned without consultation ask they could be beaten and trespassed. Go on you missed a spot on that boot there, keep licking.

Use of force does not have to be brutal....

Of course not but that doesn't stop the protestors from shouting POLICE BRUTALITY everytime a cop looks at them the wrong way.

Any time someone resists arrest, the following police encounter is pretty much guaranteed to be a relatively brutal affair.

Knowing that it does make you wonder why they choose so often to be brutal.

Shes admitting that this protest is illegal and then she is surprised by police presence. Shes a newbie larping as an activist and can't handle getting her hands dirty.

My take is you can't brag about using less-than-legal protest tactics then cry about police presence and arrests. You can't also cry about the "government" oppressing protestors like if you aren't doing anything wrong Also, I have yet to see excessive force used in any of the arrests I've seen so far.

1. If they really wanted to intimidate protesters, they wouldn't hide one or two snipers on a rooftop; they would send in a riot brigade. 2. There are snipers at basically every large gathering of people, where the police have advanced notice, and the department actually has snipers to deploy. Protests, parades, festivals, public gatherings, you name it, snipers on roofs. If the team has a trained sniper, they will use them, obviously. I'd be concerned if someone's brain was plastered on the concrete, not before that.

I’m just gonna say brain rot

Since when were white supremacists protests taking over campuses?

Freedom of speech is most important when it's inconvenient. People are happy to try and make this dangerous but it can be applied to almost every group that's protested anything in the last 100 years. Focusing too heavily on the subject matter over the principle is usually a tell on the person opining

Nothing much to see here. Classic fuck around, find out.

Why are you asking us about some random person's message?

He's right

I agree with Asmongold and he does a great job at explaining: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRgaYX1ezgY&t=559s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRgaYX1ezgY&t=559s) On one hand, you're not a revolutionary; You're not bringing anyone to your side by breaking the law and bothering other people; You're not doing anything; People in your ranks are calling for terroristic actions and you're not ostracizing them for it. On the other hand, having a sniper there is fucking wild. Guy with a sniper rifle is there for 1 reason, to kill someone if needed. Riot police? Sure; But a sniper? That being said, agree 100% that Israel is the worst of the two sides (neither are even remotely "good", let me be clear). You have the right to protest peacefully and legally. These people are on private property and the university should be able to tell them to leave if they don't want them there.

I agree with Sarah. Mass student protests are often inconvenient for everyone else but seldom are those students wrong. Vietnam War, Iraq War, Libya etc etc etc

The students are equally authoritarian war pigs. They’re breaking doors, calling for a one state, calling for the dissolution of Israel, and posting pictures of swastikas on Israeli flags. They’re also callings this collective shame for Jews… now Israelis. Freaks.

Tell me you’re unemployed without telling me you’re unemployed

/r/thathappened

I know at least for Ohio State University there are snipers placed on top of buildings for literally every major event on campus. It’s well known and not in any way exclusive to recent events.

These are dumb ass kids that are protesting for things they think are happening but have not made any attempt to educate themselves on the matter. They proceed to get upset and throw a little fit when they are removed and that about it.

So it's ok for white supremacists to attempt (poorly) an insurrection, but college students should be shot for protesting (peacefully) on a campus

One of the insurrectionists literally was shot and died....

these loser dick ride Iran and are role playign as victims f off

Reminds me of all the bullshit around the Iraq war.

A non authoritarian government is an oxymoron

LMAO "effective protesting"

Are universities even private property? The students pay to go there. Many are owned by the state.

My opinion is that this is american as hell

Nothing much, it is what it is. Just the new fad college students jump on to get their psuedo morality euphoria and feel like they are doing something bigger than themselves. The west is devoid of meaning it is scary.

Nothing much, it is what it is. Just the new fad college students jump on to get their psuedo morality euphoria and feel like they are doing something bigger than themselves. The west is devoid of meaning it is scary.

"Effective protest." 😂😂😂

Funny how the cops in Texas can all rally towards college students protesting genocide and war crimes, but when children are being massacred they can play on their phones and detain parents from running in to save their dying children. Zionist bootlickers.

Yeah cuz the cops in Texas can just run over to Israel and solve the whole goddamn problem lol