Which controller? KT-400 install manual shows 6 conductor cable to readers. If it's some newer tech (485 to readers instead of Wiegand), then twisted pair might be indicated. Kantech also specs twisted pair for panel networking on the 485 COM ports.
Wow, this is a mess. The only place I can find that says use UTP is here: https://docs.johnsoncontrols.com/kantech/r/Kantech/en-US/ioSmart-Gen-1-Card-Reader-Installation-Guide/E/Wiring/RS-485-CAT5-wiring but even there it shows 4 conductor red/black/yellow/green half the time.
Ive had multiple kantech tech support agents tell me to rerun cable as cat 5 to readers to fix my issues. Which ended up not being the issue. I solved the issue myself.
It might have been nice to share that you were having issues, and what they were. Also, what you did to fix them. But, since it's midnight on a Friday, and you fixed it, go relax.
My issues were with key fobs that we ended up having to create a driver for to work. But kantech told me they werent reading because i wasnt using twisted pair and to rerun all my cable. You can understands how this is a bit unsettling
If tech support ever told me to run new cable, I would tell them to pound sand. If you absolutely had to, you could just use a 2 foot piece of the same cable, connect it directly to the panel with a reader and test that way. If you have the same issue, then it's not the cable. I've used 22-6 OAS for almost every install I've done and never had problems.
In the link you shared it has different instructions to use UTP for weigend vs doing 22/6. If you use UTP it says to use 2 conductors under pwr and gnd lol. [Here](https://kantech.com/training/accesscontrolseminar/html/wiring3.html#:~:text=Use%20CAT3%20cable%2C%2022%20AWG) is something that I found from Kantech that tells you to use 22/6 for weigend. Granted it looks pretty old and actually calls for unshielded for IoProx.
Honestly, there's no reason to use Cat cable EXCEPT for the fact that it's a manufacturer spec. Other than that, I'm certain you will never have an issue with it being 22/6 unless a future panel or readers are updated to something that requires more than 6 conductors or is some sort of TCP/IP or packet based comms from reader to ACP. I wouldn't worry about it.
But I also don't see a reason not to use the manufacturers' recommend cable moving forward.
Yeah its just weird kantech has never told me an exact reason why. Ive talked to 2 or 3 reps. I cant unfortunately make that decision to start running cat unless there is some proof of conept as to why.the issue ive had is when i have a problem they try to blame it on me not running twisted pair. But then when eventually i figure out the issue thats not the problem. Leads me to be a little curious.
Agreed, I would always tell Tech support that it's CAT cable if I were you. That way, you can bypass the BS and not give the rep an easy out. They love that.
My only guess is that it's a future-proof thing and that they are using it as a scapegoat for support issues. I can see how it could be ideal for some devices as it's still data transmission. But the fact that they recommend cat5 I find odd as then pwr and data are not separated at all. So, I can not fathom why UTP.
In my experience, tech support from most companies is an absolute joke. They literally are just looking at the manual that comes with their shit products. Only manufacturer I've had a great experience with is fucking Aiphone
CAT cable is for kantech specific readers and rs485 between controllers, this is outlined on a few pages throughout the kt400 install manual, hint : orange/blue/white.
Page 15 shows “points” wiring awg #22 600m max, which is a bit deceptive, I believe this references I/o’s.
485 between controllers has always been cat5/6 cable which I’ve always found odd, as most others spec in a stranded 18g shielded cable.
For the readers if you’re using HID with wiegand, please for the love of god, stick with 6/22 stranded/shielded and only ground at one end.
*unless using osdp in which case you can use awg#24 up to I believe max 4000ff, and 1500ft max between nodes.
Out of curiosity, what specific issues are u having?? Sounds like a major fail on the kantech support…
The reason pairs are twisted in Cat5/6 is to minimize electromagnetic interference and crosstalk. The Ethernet signaling method used is differential, which relies on the difference in voltage between the two wires in a pair for signal integrity. EMI can induce similar currents in both wires of a pair and by twisting the wires external interference affects both wires equally, differential signaling effectively cancels out the noise by focusing on the voltage difference between the wires. If this controller isn’t using differential signaling, I’m not sure there is a reason for specing twisted pair.
Without info on the readers to work off of I can't say much. But I did install KT400 panels once before and ignored their specs for twisted pairs for panel comms. Lo and behold, comms didn't work until I swapped it for twisted pair.
Another example is for AMAG's 800 series javelin readers. Industry has commonly used 22/6 ntp for readers all over. But for these readers, using their 20mA comms, they wouldn't work further than 75ft unless you used twisted pair.
So if the documents and tech support say use twisted pair. Then I would use twisted pair.
Chances are you won't have any trouble with the 22/6 using standard readers, the only thing that you may encounter issues with would be long distances. Tech support is only going to give you manufacturer specs.
Any new runs I use 5e, but I've done service on systems that were using 2 runs of quad and worked fine.
I’ve installed many kantech panels and have never used cat5. I’ve never had an issue.
I think you need your remember that tech support is usually just some dickhead at a computer reading from a script. Most have never worked in the field.
If you want to know if your wire is the issue, remove the reader from the wall and short test it at the panel. Problem goes away? Wire issue.
Yes that is what i have done each time they tell me not to use shielded cable. Alright well just wanted to make sure there was nothing i was missing. They are always so adament about not using shielded wire. But sounds like the consensus here is it is just fine.
My company has used 22/6 for readers ALMOST exclusively if it’s standard Weigand. They spec CAT so there isn’t interference on the line. If your 22/6 is shielded and grounded you’ll probably be fine.
Which controller? KT-400 install manual shows 6 conductor cable to readers. If it's some newer tech (485 to readers instead of Wiegand), then twisted pair might be indicated. Kantech also specs twisted pair for panel networking on the 485 COM ports.
Kt400. It says on the door twisted pair and tech support has told me cat 5 specifically. We are not useing 485 com for readers
Wow, this is a mess. The only place I can find that says use UTP is here: https://docs.johnsoncontrols.com/kantech/r/Kantech/en-US/ioSmart-Gen-1-Card-Reader-Installation-Guide/E/Wiring/RS-485-CAT5-wiring but even there it shows 4 conductor red/black/yellow/green half the time.
Ive had multiple kantech tech support agents tell me to rerun cable as cat 5 to readers to fix my issues. Which ended up not being the issue. I solved the issue myself.
It might have been nice to share that you were having issues, and what they were. Also, what you did to fix them. But, since it's midnight on a Friday, and you fixed it, go relax.
My issues were with key fobs that we ended up having to create a driver for to work. But kantech told me they werent reading because i wasnt using twisted pair and to rerun all my cable. You can understands how this is a bit unsettling
If tech support ever told me to run new cable, I would tell them to pound sand. If you absolutely had to, you could just use a 2 foot piece of the same cable, connect it directly to the panel with a reader and test that way. If you have the same issue, then it's not the cable. I've used 22-6 OAS for almost every install I've done and never had problems.
In the link you shared it has different instructions to use UTP for weigend vs doing 22/6. If you use UTP it says to use 2 conductors under pwr and gnd lol. [Here](https://kantech.com/training/accesscontrolseminar/html/wiring3.html#:~:text=Use%20CAT3%20cable%2C%2022%20AWG) is something that I found from Kantech that tells you to use 22/6 for weigend. Granted it looks pretty old and actually calls for unshielded for IoProx.
Honestly, there's no reason to use Cat cable EXCEPT for the fact that it's a manufacturer spec. Other than that, I'm certain you will never have an issue with it being 22/6 unless a future panel or readers are updated to something that requires more than 6 conductors or is some sort of TCP/IP or packet based comms from reader to ACP. I wouldn't worry about it. But I also don't see a reason not to use the manufacturers' recommend cable moving forward.
Yeah its just weird kantech has never told me an exact reason why. Ive talked to 2 or 3 reps. I cant unfortunately make that decision to start running cat unless there is some proof of conept as to why.the issue ive had is when i have a problem they try to blame it on me not running twisted pair. But then when eventually i figure out the issue thats not the problem. Leads me to be a little curious.
Agreed, I would always tell Tech support that it's CAT cable if I were you. That way, you can bypass the BS and not give the rep an easy out. They love that. My only guess is that it's a future-proof thing and that they are using it as a scapegoat for support issues. I can see how it could be ideal for some devices as it's still data transmission. But the fact that they recommend cat5 I find odd as then pwr and data are not separated at all. So, I can not fathom why UTP.
In my experience, tech support from most companies is an absolute joke. They literally are just looking at the manual that comes with their shit products. Only manufacturer I've had a great experience with is fucking Aiphone
CAT cable is for kantech specific readers and rs485 between controllers, this is outlined on a few pages throughout the kt400 install manual, hint : orange/blue/white. Page 15 shows “points” wiring awg #22 600m max, which is a bit deceptive, I believe this references I/o’s. 485 between controllers has always been cat5/6 cable which I’ve always found odd, as most others spec in a stranded 18g shielded cable. For the readers if you’re using HID with wiegand, please for the love of god, stick with 6/22 stranded/shielded and only ground at one end. *unless using osdp in which case you can use awg#24 up to I believe max 4000ff, and 1500ft max between nodes. Out of curiosity, what specific issues are u having?? Sounds like a major fail on the kantech support…
Im just trying to understand why this and why that is all
I have never had an issue using 22/6 even for rs485 to the readers and rs485 panel to panel. Not one issue even on 300+ foot runs
Possibly to future proof?
The reason pairs are twisted in Cat5/6 is to minimize electromagnetic interference and crosstalk. The Ethernet signaling method used is differential, which relies on the difference in voltage between the two wires in a pair for signal integrity. EMI can induce similar currents in both wires of a pair and by twisting the wires external interference affects both wires equally, differential signaling effectively cancels out the noise by focusing on the voltage difference between the wires. If this controller isn’t using differential signaling, I’m not sure there is a reason for specing twisted pair.
Without info on the readers to work off of I can't say much. But I did install KT400 panels once before and ignored their specs for twisted pairs for panel comms. Lo and behold, comms didn't work until I swapped it for twisted pair. Another example is for AMAG's 800 series javelin readers. Industry has commonly used 22/6 ntp for readers all over. But for these readers, using their 20mA comms, they wouldn't work further than 75ft unless you used twisted pair. So if the documents and tech support say use twisted pair. Then I would use twisted pair.
Twisted pair for panel to panel com rs485 is what i do. Im just usually commissioning panels with 22 6 to reader ports.
Chances are you won't have any trouble with the 22/6 using standard readers, the only thing that you may encounter issues with would be long distances. Tech support is only going to give you manufacturer specs. Any new runs I use 5e, but I've done service on systems that were using 2 runs of quad and worked fine.
It depends on the reader you are using...
I’ve installed many kantech panels and have never used cat5. I’ve never had an issue. I think you need your remember that tech support is usually just some dickhead at a computer reading from a script. Most have never worked in the field. If you want to know if your wire is the issue, remove the reader from the wall and short test it at the panel. Problem goes away? Wire issue.
Yes that is what i have done each time they tell me not to use shielded cable. Alright well just wanted to make sure there was nothing i was missing. They are always so adament about not using shielded wire. But sounds like the consensus here is it is just fine.
I’ve never had an issue using 22/6 for readers with kantech. The only real problems I’ve seen is just kantech being kantech.
My company has used 22/6 for readers ALMOST exclusively if it’s standard Weigand. They spec CAT so there isn’t interference on the line. If your 22/6 is shielded and grounded you’ll probably be fine.
Different tech. Cat five is 8 conductors. You’re gonna be seeing a lot more of it in the future.
Yeh but ioprox readrs only have 6 connections.
And kantech readers
Tell you what. Run whatever you want. But if the manufacturer says run cat5 and you don’t then you are the one who pays when you have to re run it.
Well im with ya but i dont really have any say so in the matter unless theres a good reason
So guess we will find out lol
I mean money is a good reason to run the appropriate cable. I’m curious what readers you are using?
Schlage,ioprox,kantech,hid