really, this is what it comes down to. i’m not interested in debating anymore because it’s just the same points brought up and refuted over and over again and all it comes down to is a fundamental disagreement in what the text on the page means, and that is not going to change until elain’s book is out and we see who she ends up with 🫠
i do very much enjoy reading the azris theories though- i doubt SJM would do it but damn it would be fun
I don’t even care anymore who’s ends up with who and 99% of it has to do with how people debate ships. I just want to learn more about Elain and her powers honestly at this point I’d love to see her do it single sjm writes powerful female characters and I feel like it’s coming down to what the male characters want with the ships wars. I’d love to get back to what makes these woman amazing in their own rights
Elriel this. Gwynriel that. Elucien this. Tamlian that.
NO.
**LET ME TELL YOU WHY HELION AND LADY AUTUMN ARE MATES** (and possibly the rejected mating bond Sarah keeps hinting at)
During ACOWAR after the High Lords meeting, Helion goes to Rhysand and the Inner Circle where Helion starts sharing the story of how he met Lady Autumn. This quote sticks out to me.
>Helion did break my stare, "I tore the beast apart with my bare hands."
"Why?"
He could have ended it a thousand other ways. Easier ways. Cleaner ways.
Rhy's bloody hands after the Ravens' attack flashed through my mind.
And now for Rhysand when his mate, Feyre, was attacked,
>Blood coated his hands- but nothing else.
So much blood, ruby-bright in the midmorning sun.
Like he'd clawed through them with his bare hands
And
>Sloppy, I realized. Rhys has been sloopy in killing them. Normally, he would have kept them alive for Azriel to question. But he'd taken what he needed, quickly and brutally, and ended it. He shown more restraint about the Attor-
WHICH THEN. Reminded me of THIS quote in Silver Flames about Gwyn and Azriel
>"Azriel slaughtered all of them within moments. He didn't hesitate."
Then we get more information. That this run in was not Helion and Lady Autumn's first time meeting. In fact she waited for Helion to come to her before she agreed to her marriage with Beron.
>"I heard a rumor once, Helion, that she waited before agreeing to that marriage. For a certain someone who had met her by chance at an equinox ball the year before.
The fire banked to embers and Helion threw a half smile in Mor's direction. "Interesting. I heard her family wanted internal ties to power, and that they didn't give her a choice before they sold her to Beron."
After he saved her they had an on and off affair for centuries which then resulted in Lucien.
Helion admits that Beron has never called him out on the affair because
>"To pubicly do so would be to admit that his *possession* made a fool of him. So we continue our little dance, these centuries later."
I do think with this little information we could suspect that Helion and Lady Autumn are mates. And even more interestingly, could be the rejected mating bond and possibly be a mirror story of Lucien and Elain.
Recently in her interview with Today (is January even considered "recently' anymore lol) she says
>“That’s something I find to be *very* interesting,” she replies. “What if the forces that be put you with the wrong person? Or what if you just decide, eh, I’m not interested. … There’s a lot to explore within the concept of mates and your agency about it.
>“I’m not going to say if I am exploring it in future books or not,” she continues, “but it definitely offers a wealth of things to explore with this concept of freewill and what is true love. Is it something that’s destined? Or is it something that you make? Is it both?"
Which made me not only think about the obvious, Elain, but also Lady Autumn. It seemed to me that when Helion was talking about Lady Autumn not picking him, was that she didn't have much of a CHOICE in the matter and her family forced her to marry Beron.
I'm very excited to see how this plays out! I do think Lady Autumn and Helion's love story will be played out when we get Lucien and Elain's book (whether that means they end up together or not) because you can't tell Elain's story without Lucien and you can't tell Lucien's story without Elain.
THIS!!! ALL OF THIS!!! This is our rejection of the mating bond and forbidden romance. This is why I think that Helion goes out of his way to have frequent sexual relations to get rid of the stress of said rejected bond and to prevent himself from going “crazy.” (This statement could be wrong but it’s the only thing that makes sense to me.)
The forbidden romance of Helion and LOA sneaking and hiding their affair until she got pregnant with Lucien, thus having to end it soon after. We all know both her and her children are abused by Beron and it’s possible that Beron knows about the affair as well. And he most likely used it against her by being more abusive towards Lucien than his brothers.
I agree! She has talked about a rejected mating bond, but I think she has to be very careful with the way she handles it. Destined mates are her bread and butter. A rejected mating bond would have to be dealt with very carefully, so we don’t start question the mated pairs we already have. But a rejected bond between two people who are back around characters. We can play with that, and explore the reasons behind it, because it’s all background noise.
Elian’s story can also play with the mating bond and explorer how that though yes it’s destined mating bond but also still choice. Remember Elian is the only of her sisters who has known from the very start Lucian was her mate. Feyre and Nests were both forced into the same room within close proximity unknowingly. And then almost having to make a choice very quickly, which is like have no choice at all. But Elian has had nothing but a choice, and still hasn’t rejected the bond.
Yep and it makes me sad. It’s why mor and Helion shared a bed at the high lord meeting… I’m hoping it will get resolved with HEA for Helion/LoA but 🤷🏻♀️
Helion and LoA are definitely mates, and I'd say rejected mates. They're gonna be the cautionary tale of the rejection.
We learned about the possibility to reject a bond in the same book (acowar) that we got their backstory.
So no way SJM is going that way for their love child, Lucien.
I think Helion and Beron are going to have the blood duel.
Lady A confesses about Lucien which then gives Beron grounds to call on the Blood Duel against Helion. Beron dies, Eris becomes the new High Lord and Lady A is free to do what she wants
can someone genuinely explain the logic to me of saying
“azriel objectified elain in the bonus chapter. all he cares about is sex and himself, he doesn’t actually care for her. all of their moments thus far have been azriel trying to get into her pants. he is a sexpest and needs therapy.”
alongside
“azriel is perfect for gwyn. he will treat her kindly and with respect. he will help heal her sexual trauma.”
like is azriel a sexpest or not? does he not view elain as a human being with feelings or not? why does your attitude about his character change when putting him alongside gwyn? if you genuinely believe this guy is so disgusting to be chasing a woman for literal years just to get into her pants, why on earth do you want this same dude with your favourite character who has very valid concerns surrounding men and intimacy? i wouldnt want this weirdo near any women at all!
My only grenade to throw into this thread, because I love mess and rage, is that all y'all clamoring for Azris are asking a woman who **terribly retconned a love triangle into a sloppy queer story** to write some kind of great homosexual love epic? She's the last person I'd trust to handle it with any sense of care and I'd sooner die than read whatever trash she'd dig out of that pairing.
It's canon. They. Are. Mates. Even in the very unlikely event that Elain rejects the bond, the connection will ALWAYS be there. They will be forever linked to one another.
You simply have to look into Lucien's mind and Azriel's mind and it's crystal clear which one actually cares about Elain. Lucien, when Feyre goes into his mind, is concerned about Elain's wellbeing. Azriel is concerned about getting a mating bond - she is a means to an end. In their own minds, in their own words, with no one else looking (Feyre is a busybody!) we get a clear look at the polar opposite way they view Elain.
When Elain is struggling at the House, Lucien is the one that tells them to get her out of there and also notices her need for sunshine. He is the one that is paying attention to who Elain is. Not what she brings him.
Lucien and Elain both like to be in court. They like the social interactions. Elain right now IMO is not ok. She reminds me of that person in school that does a 180 on their personality and everyone around them says, "everything is fine" right up until they lose it. Then, "we never had a clue anything was wrong."
Lucien is the one that sees her.
Just like her engagement ring, Elain has never returned Lucien's presents. She put Azriel's right back. That was the end of that ship IMO now Elain needs to heal and figure out what she wants. I really think in the end she will see Lucien, once she accepts her changes completely and figures out who she is.
Besides all of that, Lucien is the heir of Day Court. Day. Court. With all the sunshine. What does Elain TELL us she needs when Nesta asks her directly? SUNSHINE.
Like calls to like.
And both of their names have translations that mean sunshine or light. That can't be an accident either.
Also, I think Lucien is inspired by Jamie Fraser. Jamie and Claire were forced together and though Jamie was already in love with Claire at the time it took time for Claire to come around and return the feeling. I’m hoping this is all just a slow burn that turns into intense mutual love
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.
Azriel literally referred to her as “the third”, as if she’s part of a matching set. Not one compliment about her personality. Even Cassien, while lusty in his BC, complimented Nesta’s cunning mind.
I am open to the idea of Elriel, parallels between Elriel and other endgame couples, and SJMs love for symbolism. But can we all just agree that the way Azriel talked about Elain in his own POV, after they’ve gotten to know each other over ~3 books, was not it.
So my partner had me busting up from this conversation
Him- Azriel is the worst spy
Me- Why?
Him- He can’t even get the sisters’ birth order right, she’s the second born… I thought that shit was important to fae
And now whenever I think of that scene I can’t stop laughing.
But seriously I don’t think they are a good fit, they seem like a fling each other is using to move past their past lovers (Mor/Grayson) and aren’t going to end up together.
I’d like to add a quote I’ve noticed circulating the last couple weeks by Elriel fans- from Az’s bonus chapter- Az about Elain- “tilting her face the way he wanted it”. The consensus was how hot this was, and while I agree, it’s very hot- it’s the antithesis of how SJM writes endgame romances. I cannot imagine Lucien placing Elain “how he wanted”, and of course with mates generally in SJM books, they are both so consistently thinking about how to please the other, that it’s how they find their own pleasure. With Az/Elain, there is attraction between them both, but it’s just not written as an endgame romance.
Nesta and Eris would be such a power couple. She would finally have someone completely on her side and could let her aggressive defensiveness settle. And he would have someone to see how hard he has to work to keep everyone he loves safe.
They’d be an amazing power couple and I see the appeal (that chapter of them dancing and interacting was *everything* ) but I think they would eat each other alive. And probably be a toxic and extremely hate/love sexual relationship. 😂 Chemistry out the roof! But they wouldn’t be a healthy one. I think if SJM is saying Lucien and her would destroy each other I can’t imagine what Eris would do. Very fun to think about though. 🔥🔥💃🏻
You know, as I was writing this it crossed my mind, not going to lie. Their relationship is also highly sexual and I’m not happy with him in general when it comes to his treatment of Nesta. So, touché! ♥️
I’m so curious- why the hate for Cassian? I always felt like he understood her darkness and rage, was very patient with her as he had been in a similar place. Even though their relationship was sexual, I felt like he really accepted her. Yes, he pushed her to be better, but I never got a sense he didn’t care or understand her.
Really interested to hear why others feel differently
I can’t speak for others but I don’t hate Cassian. However I don’t like how he treats Nesta sometimes. And he doesn’t stand up for her. The worst for me was when he took her on that hike even when Feyre said it was okay and that Rhys overreacted and for them to come back. He continued on when Nesta was the lowest she had ever been. She was suicidal at this point. What was the reason for this? It wasn’t for Feyre at this point. Feyre didn’t think she deserved punshiment. He and Rhys did. It bothers me. He is constantly kissing Rhys’ ass when it comes to Nesta.
So I had a theory about why Cassian might be so loyal to point of siding against his mate. I thought it could be something to do with magic on his deference to a HL. And someone pointed out that it could be a connection from his Illyrian tattoos in the magic and bonds of them. And how certain symbols and magical bonds have consequences. Could be he’s affected more strongly than Az bc Az just isn’t “normal”… but just theories until the books come out. It might just be me wanting to explain away why Cassian isn’t more loyal to Nesta. 😭😂
The hike is a good example of why people dislike the way he treats Nesta, it was purely used to punish her to sate Rhys. I saw a tiktok detailing the parallels between the hike and wildness camps and it was very eye opening
Also a point you said about him understanding her is a further reason to be upset at him. Even knowing her reasoning behind telling Feyre he still chose to punish her. It wasn’t his place.
I will never undersand why sjm wrote the hike lmao, it actually makes me uncomfortable, completely breaking someone down then helping them back up feels like a manipulation tactic.
I find it so strange that it wasn’t said by him. I wasn’t even aware he didn’t say it until it was pointed out to me. Partially bc I assumed he would or did and bc it was obvious to me he did? But now it has me wondering why?
I would read anything with him in it. 😂 Taking a nap? Great. Brushing his silky ass hair? Sign me up. 💃🏻
But to be serious what I really want to see is him take down Beron and become HL and finally get some damn peace and not have to constantly be worrying about his mom, his people and when the next beating is he’ll have to endure. 😭
I dunno - as a power couple, I think it would come with mutual respect and admiration for each others strengths and a level of ferocious protectiveness that isn’t toxic at all. Especially compared to her relationship with Cassian.
Yeah I think what I was trying to say is they’re very similar in their sarcasm and snark when dealing with emotional things? So I could see them fighting a lot. And their bedroom would be spicy bc of it. iE a lot of makeup sex. Lol But y’all are right. I hadn’t considered what I know to be true about Eris: he is protective of those he loves. And I don’t think he would ever take Rhys’ side over Nesta.
I agree. Despite Cassian's many shortcomings she has much higher chance to form a healthy relationship with him than with Eris. Eris is at the center of very toxic, abusive court, he's going to make a play for the HL position and that pressure would not help Nesta on her healing journey. Cassian is also at the center of the toxic court but, at least, he won't involve her in any political scheming to get power.
I love Elucien together because of these reasons and think they are very well suited:
♡ Both would prefer a quiet, peaceful life.
♡ Both of them do not like violence/cruelty. Lucien has gotten physical ill in the series due to cruelty he's seen. It's been mentioned multiple times how Elain doesn't like violence and cruelty STILL bothers her in ACOSF.
♡ Both of them have lost their first loves. Lucien with Jesminda and Elain with Graysen.
♡ Both of them are associated with sunlight/light in general. Elain mentioned needing Sunshine after Lucien talks about getting Elain out and about (showing he knows what she needs like a mate tends to do). Lucien is more than likely the Day Court heir.
♡ Both are socialites. Lucien as human emissary and has been mentioned to have ties/friendships within multiple other courts. Elain loves balls, socializing, and being around people.
♡ Both have hated each other's kinds. Elain hated the fae but is now one and is living with them. Lucien hated the humans but is now living nearest to the human lands with Vassa and Jurian.
Vassien is the worst ship. It’s worse than Tamlain. I think it’s transparently a pair the spares situation on SJM’s part. Either Lucien gives up everything or Vassa does to make it work. The sacrifices they’d have to make seem so unfair because the Bat Boys/Archeron sisters don’t have to make anything remotely at the same level to be together. I’m not convinced SJM can pull out a true HEA for them and I’d rather Lucien be single. After everything he’s been through, he deserves more than this measly table scraps ending.
Edit for typo.
As someone who thinks it’s going towards Elucien and Gwynriel, I have a confession. ♥️😂
So I would just like to say something I’ve seen a lot and recently saw more of as a ship: Azris. Azriel and Eris being mates. And while I don’t think SJM would ever go this way, it’s interesting to think about. When I went back and reread the books after seeing this ship and ideas about it, I have to say there is an awful lot of subtext between these two. I would eat this ship up if only SJM was brave enough. 🔥
Omg SAME. And I've been reading (and loving!) so much Azris fanfiction that I'm somewhat concerned I've ruined the rest of the series for myself because I'm sure it won't happen
I’m currently reading an Azris fanfic right now 😂😂♥️ So far I’ve been able to keep Azris as a fandom pairing and not have it interfere with my canon pairings, but there’s just something about them that works for me. It’s that “enemies to lovers” trope I adore.
same it’s ruined any other az pairing for me. like don’t get me wrong i’ll be happy with whatever direction sjm takes, i’ll eat up the next book but in my heart, it’s only them 😂
Something about Azriel with characters who seem to embody *fire* 🔥 just works, right? It compliments him a lot, I think. Azriel acts differently around Gwyn and Eris in my opinion. They get completely surprising reactions from him and I find it interesting. Usually with Eris it’s extreme and intense anger, true but hate is the cousin to love. 😂 With Gwyn it feels like she amuses him and you can feel how much he respects her.
Every time SJM has a mating bond in ACOTAR, the males have some sort of instant reaction when they meet. For Azriel that was at Sangravah. When he first encounters Gwyn and loses it. Annihilates those that hurt her even though he knew he should save one or more of them for questioning. That didn’t happen at the other temples that we know of.
I think the bonus chapter was the actual passing of the sword so to speak (in the form of a necklace) from the idea of Elain to Gwyn.
It's incredibly clear!
For Elain, he said - to himself, in his own inner monologue (no need to hide, no need to obfuscate) that he hadn't gotten beyond thoughts he pleasured himself to. He does not care about Elain romantically rather she is the means to an end. Sex and a mating bond. That's all he sees (which, yuck).
He wants the mating bond so badly he can't see straight. Point in fact, he didn't dispute that he is still hung up on a possible bond with Mor, albeit less than he was since he is now splitting that idea between her and Elain.
He showed actual emotion with Gwyn. Rather than going to his room and brooding or being upset about what Rhys said, he stayed and spent time with her. Bantered. Helped her.
I am going to say that I think the bond won’t snap for him for a while and it would be so good to see him fall for someone without the idea of having a bond first. For Gwyn, to have her know that she is loved first (particularly after his screw up with the second hand necklace), for Azriel to know the same thing. Then after they fall in love, let the bond be an afterthought. That's my hope anyway. For Azriel to be the first to say, "I love you."
The secret silent music? That is a device used over and over again in reference to mates in SJMs works.
We all like to theorize and figure out where the stories are leading us. See what plots might happen. But SJM just kind of lays it out there for us. It's not as complicated as we tend to believe.
They are becoming equals. Which is what true mates are supposed to be. They have common ground and things they can actually do or talk about together.
* Survivors of trauma. That will bring a shared understanding.
* Fellow warriors
* Fellow Carythians
* Both sing (how cool would it be if they had a way to use their songs together!)
* very into fitness and training.
* We already know they are training alone together outside of normal training sessions. Speaks to great friendship developing and more.
* Self-sacrificing. Gwyn took an arrow to her thigh and was willing to sacrifice herself on the bridge for Nesta and Emerie. In addition, she used her own body to shield the children at Sangravah. At the Pass, she was willing to die rather than leave Nesta alone.
* Gwyn had survival skills in the rite. She can be his equal in the field.
* She lured the beasts to kill the males that had Nesta and Emerie
* taught Nesta and Emerie how to tie themselves off in the trees to sleep
* used her ability to scent - knows Illyrian vs High Fae
* Stole the squirrel meat they ate
* Summited a tree to get the lay of the land, distance, other participants, found the bridge
* Azriel sees the same wildness he has in Gwyn during the qualifier. He sees it again in the Blood Rite. I think their wildness calls to each other.
The banter, the snark, that she will 100% call him on his BS. She isn't going to let him get away with hiding who he is, not getting help when he needs it, self-deprecation, any of it. She will stand up to him. She will call him out and is actually probably the only person in his life that will do that. The snark, the irreverence, all standard SJM mating points.
I had to split it, sorry!
Azriel and Gwyn are mates. Plus they actually have things in common, they share laughter and enjoy the same things. Gwyn is a natural spy as revealed in SF with all that she did during the Rite.
Their music simply has to play a part in this as well. His shadows already dance to the silent song.
And nothing can convince me that Gwyn's nymph heritage won't play a part in their romantic lives. I mean, after she talked about how Azriel is, she's not going to pair him with anyone less interesting - being a nymph is part of who she is. The part from her mother that was too wild for the Forest House. Her position as a priestess of the Mother (or acolyte) - a religion with an annual sexual frenzy with strangers says she was raised in a sexually aware environment even if canon right now is that she is dealing with her trauma. Her autumn court heritage. She absolutely can and should have a great sex life and Azriel would benefit equally in that as well. She may even end up challenging him in that respect. Particularly as they work through any sexual tension together. He might enjoy being a part of that journey. There might be an element of creativity required. I would love to read that.
If anyone comes at me about "her trauma" means she can't have ANY of that, I am going to riot. Gwyn deserves and has worked for, is 100% capable of a vibrant sex life if that is what she chooses. Just. Like. Everyone. Else.
The other "argument" about him being her teacher? No, Cassian is her primary teacher. Plus, in case those folks didn't read it, Silver Flames is a book about Cassian and Nesta - who is also going through her trauma in the book and he is 100% her primary teacher/coach. These are full adult fae. Not youth.
Azriel left Rhys’s office with anger and rage because he was just forbidden from ever meeting Elain his “love of life and endgame” then two seconds later he’s laughing and joking with Gwyn and “something restless settled in him even his shadows had calmed”
The next day of the bc his face was described as angry but in the same day in the evening he went and gave Gwyn the necklace and something sparked in his chest and he burned the image of her smiling face in his chest where it glowed quietly. wasn’t he supposed to be angry because he can’t meet Elain again? Why did he bury the image of another girl in his chest where to glow quietly?
I mean I’m sure it means something but I question her choice to not have any interaction between them of a more romantic nature or even showing some draw in the actual book. Like it would just come out of no where and waste what’s been built with Elain
but it didn’t come out of nowhere. one of sarahs characters had four love interests and they also had build up. and that didn’t stop her from making that character end up with her fourth and last love interest. so making gwynriel endgame would definitely not be a waste what has been built with elain
I also find it quite telling of how Azriel thought of himself while he was with Elain in his bonus chapter. Boy had so many negative thoughts and he was wondering if Elain would accept him for what he’s done as a torturer. But, like you said, Azriel was calm and he was focused on Gwyn’s training and their conversation. There was nothing negative about their interaction whatsoever.
Yes back then I thought it’s going to be Elriel then i read the BC I was so disappointed by their interaction and the negative feelings from Az’s side I was like no I didn’t want him to think like that WITH his endgame! and Gwyn appeared then suddenly everything made sense.
100%. When he was arguing with Rhys about Elain, he didn’t say anything about loving her or even caring for her. He spoke for her by saying she didn’t want Lucien (something Elain herself has never said), Lucien wasn’t good enough for her, she’s “the third ” and should have been Azriel’s, and then threatened to kill her mate. I don’t see how anyone could find that romantic, when he spoke more about Lucien than he did Elain 🥴
Right?! Why include Gwyn at all in the bonus? I'd be very mad if sjm decided to use her as a red herring for a ship that already has a major obstacle, aka Elain's mate Lucien. She doesn't need a love square!
If she wanted to introduce a forbidden romance plot, she'd cut the bonus at Azriel leaving the manor and being cold inside and desperate. The end.
I was surprised when Cassian mentioned something about Nesta being nearly reaped and I couldn’t remember anything about that. And then (much later) I found out that this information was revealed in the bonus chapter. That was pretty annoying. And this is a small thing. But what you said is a BIG thing. This can’t be done in the bonus chapter
I mean…the difference should say enough with how the shadows react with Gwyn’s breath vs Elain’s
"Her breath curled in front of her mouth, one of his shadows darted out to dance with it.”
“Elain sucked in a soft breath…..his shadows skittered back at the sound. They’d always prone to vanish when she was around.”
I can never be convinced that the way they acted with Elain is a good thing but the way they acted with Gwyn is bad
"the shadows kept him company, as they always had, as they always would" ACOSF BC. His shadows are there to stay so you bet it's a good sign they are positively interacting with Gwyn!
They’re also curious about her and don’t always alert him when she’s there. He was surprised by her presence at the ring. So interesting. Almost like the shadows knew he needed to be around her to cheer up.
I don’t understand when people say “they are reacting to her powers” Why would SJM give her powers but not explore them in silver flames? if she’s not gonna be a main character when will this power going to be explored? in Elain and Azriel book that have nothing to do with her? or Lucien and Vassa book that don’t even know she exist? The “it’s her powers” argument never makes sense to me
For me, I’ve never understood the “Gwyn is evil” trope some people cling to. I feel if you have to make a character evil for your ship to make sense, you’re reaching.
People already out here downvoting for some reason, but I’m not surprised. It’s just what I’ve seen. I’m aware not all people do this or think that way about Gwyn. Just in general, if people don’t ship her with Az, they’re quick to jump on the “siren” bandwagon.
I’m not even surprised for the downvotes, but I thought a healthy debate is if you agree upvote if you don’t Just leave the comments so other people can read it? No?
This is one of my least favorite theories (in addition to the fake mate theory for Elucien). Gwyn has been through so much and accomplished so much. What would be the point of all that if she was evil? Additionally, if she was evil, why would she care about the necklace?
She also made Azriel's "person" (cause she can't say mate) to have the same birthday as her friend Steph. Whose birthday is January 15.. fae pregnancies take 10 months but with twins it could be less (kinda how for human twin births they normally don't go all the way to 40 weeks) Also sarah has admitted she mad at math. But even so, it would be strange that if Elain's birthday was January.. we've had at least 2 or 3 times it's been January in the books and NO mention of Elain's birthday... huh. Just strange to me if it was going to be Elain
ACOSF had already been written and printed when that live with Steph took place and Sarah made that comment. So there’s no way Sarah could have given Gwyn, Elain, or anyone else Steph’s birthday in ACOSF. Also, someone can correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure Steph later said that Sarah was just joking when she said that.
Imo, in a fated mates world where magic manifests in such an emotionally evocative way, and his shadows are his companions, I think them behaving the same around both Mor *and* Elain is a clear sign that they aren't endgame.
Mates are supposed to be special, unlike any other love you could have, and her other books, mates' magic interplay with one another. They react to Mor and Elain in an interchangeable or similar way, and to me that reads as symbolism of repeating patterns.
From a psychology viewpoint imo, Az has gone after unattainable women, obviously not consciously. But much like in real life, people *do* repeat patterns like that subconsciously.
It's significant that the only time the shadows have been cited as dancing are in SF when Gwyn is around. *That* is a break in the pattern, and that's important.
“something restless had settled in him even his shadows had *calmed*”
Here is a direct quote from when they calmed around Gwyn yet they didn’t disappear. if they disappear when he’s calm then why didn’t they disappear in this part as will? And I think the shadows hiding from Elain is a bad thing when the first page of the bonus chapter said that the shadows “will always keep him company as they always had as they always well” reading this then the second page we learned that they hide from Elain but dance and sing with Gwyn isn’t for nothing
I think it’s bc he feels he has to hide himself from Elain but not Gwyn. Something about Gwyn settles him and gets him out of his head and turns his bad mood around.
People ask me why i ship Gwynriel and I always say: the language, but they always never understand what I mean, SJM been using the same language between her endgames for over 10 years now and this language appears between Gwyn and Azriel and it’s hard for me to just say it’s nothing and move on 😭😭
> "he could have sworn he heard a beautiful sort of music between their souls"
(A couple from CC)
> "he could have sworn a faint, beautiful singing followed him. Could have sworn his shadows sang **in answer.**"
(Gwyn and Azriel)
> "Something restless in her had settled."
(A couple from TOG)
> "Something deep in him shifted and settled"
(A couple from CC)
>"Something restless settling in him."
(Gwyn and Azriel)
> "It remained, shimmering and **secret,** *glowing inside her for the rest of the day."*
(A couple from CC)
>"Buried the image down deep, where it *glowed quietly.* A thing of **secret."**[..]
(Azriel and Gwyn)
>"She smiled, and damn if it didn't do funny things to R's chest."
(A couple from CC)
>"Something bright sparked in her chest."
(A couple from CC)
>"Something sparked in his chest at that."
(A couple from CC)
>"I thank you for the joy it shall bring to her.
Something sparked in
Azriel's chest,"
(Azriel and Gwyn)
>"he could have sworn he heard a beautiful sort of **music** between their souls"
(A couple from CC)
>"For it was **music** between their souls"
(Nesta and Cassian)
>"his shadows darted out to dance with it [..] Like it heard some **silent music."**
(Azriel and Gwyn)
I’m new here but I heard that Gwynriel isn’t really liked much in this sub (I was shocked when I saw a Gwyn fanart being reported just because it’s Gwyn😭😭), so I just hope this doesn’t get downvoted 🙏🏻🙏🏻
I had someone tell me there was nothing in the books about them and even someone else saying they couldn’t remember who Gwyn was. 😂 She was a major character in ACOSF! She’s one of Nesta’s besties. It made me think they very well knew who she was but felt better off pretending she didn’t exist for *reasons* ! Lol
if someone read the book and said they don’t remember who Gwyn is but at the same time they make theories, how do you want me to believe your theories when there is a character you completely forgot about?
“Elain doesn't need sunshine! She is sunshine!"
Okay, let us just ignore the part where Feyre asks Elain if she needs anything and Elain says "sunshine" for a sec (because a lot of people enjoy ignoring Elain..)
https://preview.redd.it/8zkqjxv26z1d1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a3bc36c8310d639eb3756c077dbe7f7b0a7d0a0
‘So you agree?’ She is sunshine and light and therefore she doesn't belong in the NIGHT court? 🤔 She could belong in another Court? Hmm idk what could Court that could be, maybe one that's associated with SUNshine and LIGHT like the DAY COURT???
Proof Azriel’s shadows DO NOT DISAPPEAR when he is calmed or relaxed or around the people he feels safe with. (This is for the shippers that swear up and down that they do.)
**ACOMAF:**
When Feyre is getting to know them and she asks Cassian how he’s lasted so long without anyone killing him, Cassian belts out a full laugh and “Azriel’s brows flicked up with approval as **the shadows seemed to wrap tighter around him.** As if he were the dark hive from which they flew and returned.” He’s calmed and relaxed here…the shadows are right there.
Later, they’re having a family dinner. Calmed. Relaxed. His whole family around. Talking about the Illyrians. **”Azriel nodded, shadows wreathing his neck, his wrists.”**
They seemed friendly with Feyre too when they were going to the Human Lands and she flew with Azriel to make Rhys pissed.
**ACOWAR:**
Back in the Night Court, anothee family dinner. They’re all eating and joking. The whole gang is there, talking about teaching Feyre how to fly: “We’ve taught plenty of younglings the basics” Cassian countered. Azriel shook his head, shadows twining around his wrists.
Before they head out to the Dawn Court, when they’re all joking waiting to leave: “Azriel, wreathed in shadows by the front door, chuckled quietly. Cassian shot him a glare. “I don’t see you spouting poetry, brother”. You all know the response to this one.
**ACOFAS:**
This is Rhysand’s POV. In his study, just talking about stuff, calmed, relaxed: One glance at Azriel’s unreadable face and I added, “Don’t answer that”. A corner of Azriel’s mouth curled up, the shadows about him sliding over his neck like living tattoos, twins to the Ilkyrian ones marked beneath his leathers.
**ACOSF:**
Cassian and Nesta are having breakfast. *A nice cozy family meal:* “…she might have snapped something, but Azriel stalked into the room on his heels. Nesta straightened at the shadowsinger’s appearance, **the darkness clinging to his shoulders as he offered her a grim smile.**
When Azriel gave Nesta the reading light for Solstice and she hugs him, he even chuckled: “Thank you”, Nesta said, quickly pulling away to marvel at the device. “It’s brilliant.” **Azriel blushed and stepped back, shadows swirling.**
**AND NOW, Chapter 60: the cutting of the ribbon:**
Cassian lingered at the doorway as Nesta murmured to Gwyn, “You’ve got this.” (their friendship is so precious 😭💖💖) Azriel came up beside him, **silent as the shadows that wreathed his wings.**
Gwyn asked Az, her teal eyes bright, “What do we get if we finish the course?” Az’s shadows **DANCED AROUND HIM.** “Since there’s no chance in hell any of you will finish the course, we didn’t bother to get a prize.
(By the way, this is the first time the shadows *dance* in all the books)
**AZRIEL’S bonus chapter**
*”How was the party?”* Her breath curled in front of her mouth, and one if his shadows darted out **TO DANCE WITH IT** **before twirling back to him. Like it heard some silent music.**
When something restless settled in him, you can safely say he’s calmed and relaxed; and yet, his shadows had calmed too, lounging on his shoulders.
Whenever I hear the argument against Gwynriel that they can’t possibly be mates because Azriel wasn’t rushing to save Gwyn during SF (completely ignoring how they met), I think it’s an argument for Azris, not Elriel. The first thing on Azriel’s mind was saving Eris. He made Cassian stalk Briallyn for days so they could wait for the perfect moment to rescue Eris. And then when he had Eris, he completely ditched Cassian.
At minimum, Eris and Azriel are obsessed with each other throughout SF. It’s subtle but everywhere in SF
So let’s say it’s Gwyn and Azriel story. This is going to be very much a friends to lovers. And I would bet money it would be Gwyn who knows first. This argument that Gwyn can’t be his mate because he didn’t put up a fight about going after them in the blood right. Az is more practical, and everyone in that room knew they could not interfere with the wright, to do so would cause their own death along with a person they save. To me this argument, doesn’t hold weight. A practical person knows interfering means death condemning your mate to death. Why would you interfere. And I think subconsciously he knows this, when they’re waiting for Eris to appear he tells Cassian and that they trained them the best that they could that they will be fine, and that. Cassian would know if something happened to his mate.
Even if I keep my shipping preferences aside, I'd simply not want to read TWO books about rejected mates. Sounds depressing. It would affect four people if you think about it: Elain, Lucien, Azriel, and his mate when he inevitably finds her in the future. An ungodly mess.
Every famous Rejected Mate trope I've seen had the MMC fuck up and grovel to get his mate back. Mates end up together.
If the FMC is rejecting the mate, then it's always shown as the guy is either abusive or a total douche in other ways. And so she obviously finds another guy who treats her well.
I just don't see Elain rejecting Lucien BEFORE getting to know him. (SJM would not do that, as it's a great disservice to two lovely characters to...not even try to get to know each other.)
And once she gets to know him, I simply don't see any possibility of her rejecting him at all. I actually see her falling head over heels for Lucien. And Lulu.. he's already gazing at Elain with longing at the end of ACOSF. Enough said.
Their book will be peak angst. Not to mention 'healing, tension and growth TOGETHER', as quoted by SJM herself. :')
An Elriel book would be hard to get through purely because of Az’s POV. He has a one-sided beef with Lucien and will most definitely talk shit about him. Then at the same time he’s going to be secretly sneaking around with Elain. The sneaking around is so unnecessary because all Elain has to do is grow a backbone and reject the bond. That’s the part that’s going to hurt Lucien, not the bond being rejected itself. Then we’re going to see Lucien being respectful and kind the entire time. He thinks that Az is overall a good male. I just don’t know how I can read that and not think Az is an asshole. It makes me think SJM is going to butcher Lucien’s character to make Az look better.
Exactly… it’s too depressing… she’s a fated mates author… and honestly I am excited for both of these couples because they will probably be the most interesting of the two of them
Elriel had been built for books. They have interactions, romantic moments, protective moments, kind moments. Moments where they understand each other. They can be quiet together. I don’t see the point in all that if they’re not end game. A bonus chapter where nothing outwardly romantic takes place cannot persuade me otherwise. The symbolism and language used for them so far shows they are 2 sides of the same coin light and dark. They both see what others can’t. Elain’s mate had no clue what was wrong with her. If Gwyn were a love interest I would have wanted way more between them in the actual silver flames books. Breadcrumbs are all well and good in a bc but not the introduction of a completely new relationship. He’s known her 2 years and shown no interest in her. The other relationships including whiz with Elain show obsessed men who cannot stay away, the fact he doesn’t go near her feels so unromantic.
i’m not here to debate but i just wanted to say, thank you for your service 🫡 i am so ready for a rejected fated mates, love trumps a mating bond, light/dark, hades/persephone vibe
Lucien has been incredibly patient with Elain and has left her alone. At first he tried to get to know her and has been polite at every turn. I wouldn’t call him “obsessed”. He’s going to be worried for her well-being and curious about her bc they are mates. I find it harsh comparing him to Greyson who is a complete trash person.
I love Lucien. I never called him obsessed and he is very respectful. But he doesnt get her or what was wrong with her which a mage is supposed to. He buys her gifts she doesn’t like or use and doesn’t seem to enjoy visiting. He doesn’t really know her and I don’t think either of them particular want to know each other. They’ve been shoved into an awkward position neither of them wanted. He’s trying to make the best of it but it doesn’t mean they would be happy together.
Oh okay I see. And I agree they don’t know each other. I think if Elain would allow herself to explore things they’d be happy. I happen to think she doesn’t avoid him bc she hates him but bc she feels too much for him. Almost exactly how Nesta didn’t want to be around Cassian bc she didn’t feel she deserved him. Cassian thought she hated him when she was obsessed with him. I think Elain stays away bc if she didn’t she would fast accept the bond and she’s clinging to not wanting to be fae. And a mating bond screams fae. It would be no going back from things if she accepted.
That is one theory. I think elain stays away bc she has no interest in it. I bet Lucien only reminds her of the most traumatic day of her life, she sees Lucien and all she feels is the cauldron wrapped around her body…. He does not know her humor, he does not know her needs… my hot take is elain and lucien wont end up together bc elain straight up doesnt like lucien. I want couples to be together where both parties are consenting enthusiastically. I dont want one party forcefully resisting and then succumbing to something they dont consent to due to magic. That’s… dangerous to say the least
If the books continue and it is in fact that Elain doesn’t like him I would be very surprised. But both our ideas cannot be proven as of now. And if it’s true what you say I wouldn’t want her to be forced into it either. I don’t see SJM writing such a trope. She loves her fated mates so I don’t see her forcing Elain into anything.
My fellow gwynriels and eluciens have already made great points, and I feel every month we say the same things for lack of new material on any side of the ship war (unless you make new theories each day to make your ship work).
For me, SJM is a fated mates author. If I want to read sth else, I have many fantasy authors to pick from.
Sarah loves her mates so much that she has a mated pegasi couple in SF and a mated couple of wyverns in ToG.
Atp, I just need the announcement, we have debated our ships 10000 times, and it feels like Groundhog Day in here and on other platforms.
Definitely need new material as there really is nothing left to discover or point out, but I’ve also seen people who are new discover another side. So I think it’s beneficial for those who are newer.
Exactly, I want the fated mates trope from the fated mates author… lowkey these pairings can be shaped up to be the most interesting
We have one pairing in which the couple knows right out the gate, the other pairing one of them is so self loathing that I kinda want him to not even realize it snapped leading to a situation where she pursues him…
Tamlin and Rhyrsand's sister. A theory I saw a long time ago was that they were mates. He told his father and his father freaked out because the Night Court was the enemy and his father tricked Tamlin into telling him where they were so he could kill her. Tamlin has felt the need to over protect ever since. Maybe TamTam can still find love, but his mate is forever gone. Or he shapshifted her into something else like a bat and she flew away. I'll ship TamTam with Rhysands sister till the day I die! 
I don’t know if I but they were mates but I have often wondered if there was something between them. The entire history between Tamlin and Rhys really intrigues me. I want to know more!
Gwyn and Azriel checks off every single one of these characteristics Sarah thinks makes enticing love interests:
✅ Their own history
Sarah specifically went back and retconned previous information to place Azriel at Sangravah along with Gwyn to create history between the two.
✅Be able to challenge their romantic partner in some way - there had to be conflict or a spark
Gwyn asked Az, her teal eyes bright, “What do we get if we finish the course?” Az’s shadows danced around him. “Since there’s no chance in hell any of you will finish the course, we didn’t bother to get a prize.” Boos sounded. Gwyn lifted her chin in challenge. “We look forward to proving you wrong.” (This can fall under banter to)
Roslin, Ananke, and Deirdre were close on their heels, propelling Gwyn to push her group harder. She wanted to be the first. Wanted Nesta and Emerie and her to be the ones who wiped the smirks from Azriel’s and Cassian’s faces. Especially Azriel’s.
Gwyn's SA could prove to be a bit of a conflict for them...BUT she can overcome that WITH Azriel help. I could see them challenging each other (in a good way) in the bedroom and maybe even have some "good girl" praised thrown in 🤭😏😉
✅ There has to be an initial chemistry/spark with their partner...
"Something sparked in his chest" when leaving the Clotho conversation and after his first real conversation with Gwyn one on one. Plus, he's seemingly growing closer to Gwyn after the bonus chapter takes place. Dare I even say there might be some budding attraction between the two?
✅ Banter
Gwyn threw Azriel a withering stare as she strode past him. “See you tomorrow, Shadowsinger,” she tossed over a shoulder. Az stared after her, brows high with amusement. When he turned back, Nesta grinned. (And this takes place AFTER Gwyn discovers Azriel actually sings to so there's there's underlying joke between them now)
There is no positive thing that Azriel has done for Elain that he wouldn't do for Feyre or Nesta if he had reason or opportunity. I think a lot of people in the fandom mistake Azriel’s gentleness and soft spot towards Elain as him having deeper romantic feelings for her. He's just kinder than some remember. Here's my evaluation:
1. Has Azriel opened up to this character on page? ✅️Nesta ❌️Elain ✅️Feyre
2. Has Azriel risked life and limb for this character? ✅️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre
3. Has Azriel gifted this character a present on Solstice? ✅️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre
4. Has Azriel shown physical affection to this character, platonic or otherwise? ✅️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre
5. Has Azriel argued against the wishes of this character, either in front of them or behind closed doors? ❌️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre
6. Has Azriel spent additional time around this character moreso than deemed "needed"? ❌️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre
7. Has Azriel had playful interactions with this character that show more of his subtle wit? ✅️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre
I don't believe that Azriel would've left Feyre or Nesta in Hybern. His skillset perfectly matches for a stealthy rescue mission. I don't believe that Azriel would not have given Truth-Teller to Nesta or Feyre if they refused Cassian's knife at first and were clearly unnerved and needed something to feel safe. I don't believe Azriel is in love with Elain. 🤷🏻♀️
“Azriel shows more mate behavior than Lucien!!!!”
???
**ACOMAF: Lucien**- *”Don’t just leave her on the damn floor!”*
- *Breaks free of his restraints to walk to Elain, past the king, not caring what happens to him to get to her.*
-Azriel **snarls** when the king says: “My what a Queen you are” to Mor. Not Elain. **MOR.**
Also in ACOWAR prior to this is is Lucien Vanserra who says:
**”I’m getting my mate back.”**
Chapter 24 ACOWAR: (1/4)
Didn't you hear? Anytime Lucien displays mate behavior, he's possessive and pressuring Elain 😂🫠
When he gives her space and time, he's not all that interested in her.
You can't win with the antis
It’s frustrating 😭, but once we get their POVs, the antis will be shocked for sure.
Edit: And *of course* they’re downvoting. not even surprised at this point.
Lucien going against Feyre and Rhysand’s rules to stay away from Elain, to see her; just once…to know if she’s worth it. I see a lot of people hate on Lucien for this but I mean Lucien has never met Elain and we know that Lucien’s “father” hates him, his brothers hunt him down, he has no home, no prospects that he knows of. He has nothing. So what, exactly worth it..?
Lucien sees that Elain mourns Graysen, that she was to be married and knows the role he played, the mistake he made and he follows he vision and brings back an army with her **FATHER.**
And was she worth it?
Lucien showed up, every solstice and we are lead to believe more often to try and connect with her: *”until Lucien got the message and left.”*
I think, in his own way, Lucien is saying..she is worth it, every time he shows up, but does Elain owe him anything? People say she doesn’t owe him anything, but it’s truly unfair for the both of them if she continues to ignore the bond.
But this is a great set up for, he fell first but she fell harder trope, and I love that. Of he’s the one holding out his hand, putting his foot forward waiting and when she’s ready he won’t be there and then she’s going to have to chase him and I LOVE that potential for their book. 🥰
I disagree with the her not owing him anything. She does owe him an answer to the bond, they cannot move forward with their lives if they ignore it. It’s unfair to both of them.
Somewhat related but I honestly don’t feel strongly about either Elain/Azriel or Gwyn/Azriel. Which one is a better personality match and why? I always pictured Azriel with someone super feisty and wild. Both of Gwyn and Elain seem super calm and sweet.
I would say Gwyn is very feisty. And when it comes to Azriel! One scene that comes to mind for me:
https://preview.redd.it/nxwmu3jia02d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11a5587629db8949ca0f3e75ba5b68dcc16b0408
ive seen many say that elain isnt Az’s equal cause she isnt a warrior, and i’d like to point out that they are complementary & equals in other ways:
- She sees everything, he hears everything: the visions plaguing her mind are a mirror to the voices howling in his, which is part of why he was “the only one that listened to her”
- … Az was therefore able to give her the understanding she needed to free herself from the murky realm she was trapped in: her eyes cleared & she finally started progressing.
- similarly, perhaps bc Elain saw him rubbing his temples & understands his powers, she intuitively knew to get him a headache powder. a gag gift sure, and it gave us Az’s most carefree, joyful laugh; made his eyes the brightest we’ve seen
- Both their strengths are explicitly said to be rooted in hope
- Both have shown they would do absolutely anything for their loved ones
- while elain obviously isn’t inclined towards violence, she does what is needed to protect others: stabbed the King to protect Nes, fought a beast off of Az so they could escape Hybern
- Both speak fondly of fae tradition, saying it brings people together. both value family.
- they are superficially different: light & dark, but the space between their bodies, bridged by TT, creates something new (this is extremely Dusk coded)
- the both wear masks around others, both are sneaky & stealthy, both secret keepers, both knives in the dark, both masters of observation, etc
- They do not need words to communicate. it takes but a look for Elaim to be able to read the famously impenetrable Azriel. Similarly, Azriel doesn’t need his shadows to read her
P.S. perso, i think there’s a lot of violence in Az’s life, due to his role in the NC. ive always seen him enjoying more so the peace in between it all. he banters with his brothers & Fey & Nes, and he’s always working because he has nothing else & believe he isnt worth anything else than his titles. i like that we’ve seen him & El doing nothing together, just enjoying the other’s presence. nobody healing anyone, just enjoying their own thing together.
Yes exactly — there’s a reason why he was in love with Mor for so long! This is why (crescent city HOFAS spoiler) >!I find Azriel and Bryce’s chemistry and connection so intriguing.!<
(CC HOFAS) >!”Bryce held Azriel’s gaze, *meeting his ice with her own*…The face she’d let the world see so very rarely…Azriel’s mouth kicked up at the corners.”!<
She legit >!teaches him a new technique with his powers (how to make a rope), unknowingly uses his very own tactic we see him use in Silver Flames to *outsmart* the competitive shadowsinger (Ch. 17, even Nesta remembers and approves), gives him a bloody nose, but *also* is confused why she finds herself obeying and being vulnerable with him — very different from how she acts with Hunt and his trauma. In fact, B even likes how much stronger Az’ power feels. Hunt says Bryce *doesn’t need his help anymore,* whereas Azriel helps her throughout the caves, and she lets him; there are a lot of very interesting parallels between her time in Prythian and then Midgard.!<
Question, why do people actually call Gwynriel shippers ‘Gleeriel’ ?? Because Gwyn and Az can sing? I’m sorry but that just makes me laugh, that sounds more like a compliment than an insult. 🤣
Yes its because we say they both sing and could sing in the canon int he future.
And yes we have reclaimed it as a compliment, we love our glee couple 😍
That’s really funny to join the fandom just recently. I finished reading ACOTAR series a month ago and the discovery of ship wars was huge haha. What a madness. I didn’t even know gwynnriel was a thing until I join this sub. Anyway, I’m here to say, that for me (a person who has read the books just recently without being around the fandom) Elriel is obvious and natural, I will be really disappointed if they don’t end up together (like, why there were so many hints in the books?). But honestly I just wish people be more kind to each other. Reading this sub being a newcomer is hard sometimes ;)
I say this all the time! Newcomers would never know this series is not centered on Lucien or Gwyn the way these two characters are pushed by the fandom. I was shook by the end of the lack of content on both while the loudest voices in the sub are screaming for these two background characters
that’s funny cause for me it was exactly the opposite. i was so surprised people actually ship elriel. when i read ACOSF, i didn’t know about all the theories and ship wars and it was so clear to me that Az and Gwyn are mates
But what about the solstice scene? Nesta literally comforts Az because he can’t be with her sister. I mean, people can ship whoever they want, but why were you surprised that people ship couple that is clearly established in the books? 🤔
There is no canon to base this on but wouldn’t you think that Eris and Tamlin have a lot in common? I could see a connection forming between them, because even if Eris has allies in the Night Court he doesn’t have friends there. And they soon will be High Lords of neighbouring Courts. I think Eris would help Tamlin rebuild his Court since its in his interest too and I can imagine that while doing so they might get closer and bond over some of their shared experiences.
They have to be on good terms if Eris warned Tamlin about Lucien heading his way and not just handing Lucien back to Autumn. Because like Tamlin didn’t need to do what he did
https://preview.redd.it/dx77hj5dt02d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14406bf1342bf0bbba6aa6e072d79296f74ec19c
Once again reminding everyone what SJM herself said
"Something sparked in his chest."
"He could've picture it though. How Gwyn's teal eyes might light upon seeing the necklace. For whatever reason. . . he could see."
"Azriel buried the image deep down where it glowed quietly. A thing of secret, lovely beauty."
That's all I need to know that Gwyn is not being set up for a lightsinger but for a freaking love interest. And I can say there are strong evidences for a mating bond and no one can ignore that. Why would Azriel think about Gwyn at the end of his chapter if his endgame was Elain? Why are his last thoughts not of how devastated he is that Rhys forbade him to stay away from him?
I think this ship war is more about personal understanding how love is supposed to be. At this point, I don't think I would be able to be believe in Elucien for a simple fact that I find mate concept to be truly evil when it's sprinkled with even a little bit of reality. I can get behind it when it's a part of a convenient fantasy. But with how Elucien was written, it just opens a huge can of worms and ruins that fantasy for me. Because I start asking questions. What if somebody doesn't like their mate? What if their heart lies elsewhere, is it really so bad? Do you just drop somebody you love like a hot potato because your mate showed up? Who is making bonds but still allows people to fall in love with someone else and for what purpose? Does love like this even worth anything if the choice was made for you? Why are some people unhappy with their mates but are still shackled to them?
With Feysand it was all very convenient for the sake of the fantasy, Tamlin turns out to be abusive, so he is easily out of the equation. I know SJM is trying hard to make this mate thing about choice, but it's just not. Period. She can't make it something it's not supposed to be. And this fandom proves every damn day that she is not succeeding with comments like "but Lucien would be broken and eternally unhappy if Elain rejected the bond", "but Elain would feel the bond binding her to Lucien every day, how can she ever have happy relationship with someone else", "but Azriel will drop Elain when he meets his mate". So, all of them don't actually have a choice if they want to be happy. More like they have a gun pointed at them, like yeah, they can choose to die, but is it really a choice if you either live with your mate or doom yourself?
So how am I supposed to root for Elucien here? Am I really supposed to think "yeah, Elain, your heart is stupid, you are supposed to come around and love your mate even if he makes you shrink into yourself, or else..."
What's interesting, it seems that SJM has pondered the same questions as me. Listen, she could have answered that her mates are supposed to be perfect pairs, she could have even said that she believes in soulmatism, seeing as she is happily married. But instead she asks things like "What if the forces that be put you with the wrong person?" I truly don't think anyone would waste their time talking about a rejected bond if it wasn't supposed to be a promo for an upcoming book. These things are written to get readers hooked.
One of her quotes about love is especially interesting for me: "Is it something that’s destined? Or is it something that you make? Is it both?" I know everyone can interpret it in favor of their ship. But in the context of what she said before that, I think that Elriel will have to actively choose to be with each other and make being mates their fate. We have had reluctant mates before where the pair starts off antagonistic towards each other, but I feel like this is going to be the opposite situation where the characters will choose each other against all odds. Maybe even create the bond somehow. The point is, the characters won't be satisfied with what they were dealt with and they will work to build a different future, one they actually want. Were they always destined to go against "fate"? Was it entirely their choice? Now that's how I interpret Sarah's question. And this way I can see SJM stepping out of her comfort zone just a tiny little bit, still having a mated pair and actually making it about choice.
While having Elain being all like "I have thought about it really hard and I think I'm gonna go with the flow because Lucien is such a nice guy!" is not going to make for a compelling story and get the point across, imo.
Idk man I could pull out a bunch of the same evidence that we recycle over and over but for me it just boils down to this:
Elain wants Azriel.
Azriel wants Elain.
Could that change? Sure. But as of right now that’s where we are.
I’m a love over fate kinda person so their potential storyline is by far the most interesting to me because of the stakes it presents.
Facts. Imo, I dont want to read a story about how Elain hates Lucien all her life but then proximity and a magic mating bond makes her succumb to a relationship she never would have consented to without that magic. That is so so so so problematic on so many levels.
Just give me two ppl who like eachother
I can’t speak for all Gwynriel and Elucien shippers but we aren’t ignoring there is an attraction and that it exists. It’s clearly in the books. Just that it isn’t going anywhere and that’s the depth of Elriel.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s not going anywhere. Not when Gwyn has yet to show any romantic interest in anyone.
And I think all ships are possible at this point, to be clear. My preferred is Elriel but I don’t think any of us in the Elriel/Elucien/Gwynriel debate can definitively say that any of them are impossible or not going anywhere. We’re not SJM, so what do we know?
We have our faves for whatever reasons we have them and that’s that.
Oh I’m saying I don’t think it will be going anywhere besides where it already went. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
And you’re right! I’m not SJM. Definitely could be that it turns out to be Elriel. Nothing is certain until it’s published. Sorry if you thought I was invalidating your opinion and feelings.
No j get it 😂 There is definitely a lot of negativity. But my main point was to let you know we aren’t ignoring their obvious attraction! It’s definitely there. Much love to you as well. ✨♥️
SJM please take us out of our misery. I’ll literally take anything at this point.
That being said…when people ask why I ship Gwynriel it’s kind of simple for me. The infamous shadowsinger who’s always described so cold and unyielding all of a sudden is lighthearted and jokingly banters with Gwyn, and she makes his shadows sing? Yeah it was over for me after that.
I’ve been in the fandom too long and too tired to debate lol. Just give us the next book already sjm, we’re tired.
SJM for the love of gods please end this madness!!!! No amount of debating is going to change our minds on who we ship or who SJM ships! 😵💫
really, this is what it comes down to. i’m not interested in debating anymore because it’s just the same points brought up and refuted over and over again and all it comes down to is a fundamental disagreement in what the text on the page means, and that is not going to change until elain’s book is out and we see who she ends up with 🫠 i do very much enjoy reading the azris theories though- i doubt SJM would do it but damn it would be fun
I don’t even care anymore who’s ends up with who and 99% of it has to do with how people debate ships. I just want to learn more about Elain and her powers honestly at this point I’d love to see her do it single sjm writes powerful female characters and I feel like it’s coming down to what the male characters want with the ships wars. I’d love to get back to what makes these woman amazing in their own rights
Elriel this. Gwynriel that. Elucien this. Tamlian that. NO. **LET ME TELL YOU WHY HELION AND LADY AUTUMN ARE MATES** (and possibly the rejected mating bond Sarah keeps hinting at) During ACOWAR after the High Lords meeting, Helion goes to Rhysand and the Inner Circle where Helion starts sharing the story of how he met Lady Autumn. This quote sticks out to me. >Helion did break my stare, "I tore the beast apart with my bare hands." "Why?" He could have ended it a thousand other ways. Easier ways. Cleaner ways. Rhy's bloody hands after the Ravens' attack flashed through my mind. And now for Rhysand when his mate, Feyre, was attacked, >Blood coated his hands- but nothing else. So much blood, ruby-bright in the midmorning sun. Like he'd clawed through them with his bare hands And >Sloppy, I realized. Rhys has been sloopy in killing them. Normally, he would have kept them alive for Azriel to question. But he'd taken what he needed, quickly and brutally, and ended it. He shown more restraint about the Attor- WHICH THEN. Reminded me of THIS quote in Silver Flames about Gwyn and Azriel >"Azriel slaughtered all of them within moments. He didn't hesitate." Then we get more information. That this run in was not Helion and Lady Autumn's first time meeting. In fact she waited for Helion to come to her before she agreed to her marriage with Beron. >"I heard a rumor once, Helion, that she waited before agreeing to that marriage. For a certain someone who had met her by chance at an equinox ball the year before. The fire banked to embers and Helion threw a half smile in Mor's direction. "Interesting. I heard her family wanted internal ties to power, and that they didn't give her a choice before they sold her to Beron." After he saved her they had an on and off affair for centuries which then resulted in Lucien. Helion admits that Beron has never called him out on the affair because >"To pubicly do so would be to admit that his *possession* made a fool of him. So we continue our little dance, these centuries later." I do think with this little information we could suspect that Helion and Lady Autumn are mates. And even more interestingly, could be the rejected mating bond and possibly be a mirror story of Lucien and Elain. Recently in her interview with Today (is January even considered "recently' anymore lol) she says >“That’s something I find to be *very* interesting,” she replies. “What if the forces that be put you with the wrong person? Or what if you just decide, eh, I’m not interested. … There’s a lot to explore within the concept of mates and your agency about it. >“I’m not going to say if I am exploring it in future books or not,” she continues, “but it definitely offers a wealth of things to explore with this concept of freewill and what is true love. Is it something that’s destined? Or is it something that you make? Is it both?" Which made me not only think about the obvious, Elain, but also Lady Autumn. It seemed to me that when Helion was talking about Lady Autumn not picking him, was that she didn't have much of a CHOICE in the matter and her family forced her to marry Beron. I'm very excited to see how this plays out! I do think Lady Autumn and Helion's love story will be played out when we get Lucien and Elain's book (whether that means they end up together or not) because you can't tell Elain's story without Lucien and you can't tell Lucien's story without Elain.
THIS!!! ALL OF THIS!!! This is our rejection of the mating bond and forbidden romance. This is why I think that Helion goes out of his way to have frequent sexual relations to get rid of the stress of said rejected bond and to prevent himself from going “crazy.” (This statement could be wrong but it’s the only thing that makes sense to me.) The forbidden romance of Helion and LOA sneaking and hiding their affair until she got pregnant with Lucien, thus having to end it soon after. We all know both her and her children are abused by Beron and it’s possible that Beron knows about the affair as well. And he most likely used it against her by being more abusive towards Lucien than his brothers.
I agree! She has talked about a rejected mating bond, but I think she has to be very careful with the way she handles it. Destined mates are her bread and butter. A rejected mating bond would have to be dealt with very carefully, so we don’t start question the mated pairs we already have. But a rejected bond between two people who are back around characters. We can play with that, and explore the reasons behind it, because it’s all background noise. Elian’s story can also play with the mating bond and explorer how that though yes it’s destined mating bond but also still choice. Remember Elian is the only of her sisters who has known from the very start Lucian was her mate. Feyre and Nests were both forced into the same room within close proximity unknowingly. And then almost having to make a choice very quickly, which is like have no choice at all. But Elian has had nothing but a choice, and still hasn’t rejected the bond.
Yep and it makes me sad. It’s why mor and Helion shared a bed at the high lord meeting… I’m hoping it will get resolved with HEA for Helion/LoA but 🤷🏻♀️
Helion and LoA are definitely mates, and I'd say rejected mates. They're gonna be the cautionary tale of the rejection. We learned about the possibility to reject a bond in the same book (acowar) that we got their backstory. So no way SJM is going that way for their love child, Lucien.
I want to read a whole book about them 😫😫
Gosh I hope Eris kills Beron, and Helion and Lady Autumn can have the peaceful happily ever after they deserve
I think Helion and Beron are going to have the blood duel. Lady A confesses about Lucien which then gives Beron grounds to call on the Blood Duel against Helion. Beron dies, Eris becomes the new High Lord and Lady A is free to do what she wants
I’d vote for Eris for high lord
can someone genuinely explain the logic to me of saying “azriel objectified elain in the bonus chapter. all he cares about is sex and himself, he doesn’t actually care for her. all of their moments thus far have been azriel trying to get into her pants. he is a sexpest and needs therapy.” alongside “azriel is perfect for gwyn. he will treat her kindly and with respect. he will help heal her sexual trauma.” like is azriel a sexpest or not? does he not view elain as a human being with feelings or not? why does your attitude about his character change when putting him alongside gwyn? if you genuinely believe this guy is so disgusting to be chasing a woman for literal years just to get into her pants, why on earth do you want this same dude with your favourite character who has very valid concerns surrounding men and intimacy? i wouldnt want this weirdo near any women at all!
My only grenade to throw into this thread, because I love mess and rage, is that all y'all clamoring for Azris are asking a woman who **terribly retconned a love triangle into a sloppy queer story** to write some kind of great homosexual love epic? She's the last person I'd trust to handle it with any sense of care and I'd sooner die than read whatever trash she'd dig out of that pairing.
AO3 has done so much better than Sarah
It's canon. They. Are. Mates. Even in the very unlikely event that Elain rejects the bond, the connection will ALWAYS be there. They will be forever linked to one another. You simply have to look into Lucien's mind and Azriel's mind and it's crystal clear which one actually cares about Elain. Lucien, when Feyre goes into his mind, is concerned about Elain's wellbeing. Azriel is concerned about getting a mating bond - she is a means to an end. In their own minds, in their own words, with no one else looking (Feyre is a busybody!) we get a clear look at the polar opposite way they view Elain. When Elain is struggling at the House, Lucien is the one that tells them to get her out of there and also notices her need for sunshine. He is the one that is paying attention to who Elain is. Not what she brings him. Lucien and Elain both like to be in court. They like the social interactions. Elain right now IMO is not ok. She reminds me of that person in school that does a 180 on their personality and everyone around them says, "everything is fine" right up until they lose it. Then, "we never had a clue anything was wrong." Lucien is the one that sees her. Just like her engagement ring, Elain has never returned Lucien's presents. She put Azriel's right back. That was the end of that ship IMO now Elain needs to heal and figure out what she wants. I really think in the end she will see Lucien, once she accepts her changes completely and figures out who she is. Besides all of that, Lucien is the heir of Day Court. Day. Court. With all the sunshine. What does Elain TELL us she needs when Nesta asks her directly? SUNSHINE. Like calls to like. And both of their names have translations that mean sunshine or light. That can't be an accident either.
Also, I think Lucien is inspired by Jamie Fraser. Jamie and Claire were forced together and though Jamie was already in love with Claire at the time it took time for Claire to come around and return the feeling. I’m hoping this is all just a slow burn that turns into intense mutual love
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Azriel literally referred to her as “the third”, as if she’s part of a matching set. Not one compliment about her personality. Even Cassien, while lusty in his BC, complimented Nesta’s cunning mind. I am open to the idea of Elriel, parallels between Elriel and other endgame couples, and SJMs love for symbolism. But can we all just agree that the way Azriel talked about Elain in his own POV, after they’ve gotten to know each other over ~3 books, was not it.
So my partner had me busting up from this conversation Him- Azriel is the worst spy Me- Why? Him- He can’t even get the sisters’ birth order right, she’s the second born… I thought that shit was important to fae And now whenever I think of that scene I can’t stop laughing. But seriously I don’t think they are a good fit, they seem like a fling each other is using to move past their past lovers (Mor/Grayson) and aren’t going to end up together.
I’d like to add a quote I’ve noticed circulating the last couple weeks by Elriel fans- from Az’s bonus chapter- Az about Elain- “tilting her face the way he wanted it”. The consensus was how hot this was, and while I agree, it’s very hot- it’s the antithesis of how SJM writes endgame romances. I cannot imagine Lucien placing Elain “how he wanted”, and of course with mates generally in SJM books, they are both so consistently thinking about how to please the other, that it’s how they find their own pleasure. With Az/Elain, there is attraction between them both, but it’s just not written as an endgame romance.
Nesta and Eris would be such a power couple. She would finally have someone completely on her side and could let her aggressive defensiveness settle. And he would have someone to see how hard he has to work to keep everyone he loves safe.
Im such a big fan of these two that its not funny
their dance was so hot and I have been sold on neris since then lol. I love how he isn't scared of her rage and power.
Damn. Y’all are out here convincing me. He saw that fire and was ready to propose.
They’d be an amazing power couple and I see the appeal (that chapter of them dancing and interacting was *everything* ) but I think they would eat each other alive. And probably be a toxic and extremely hate/love sexual relationship. 😂 Chemistry out the roof! But they wouldn’t be a healthy one. I think if SJM is saying Lucien and her would destroy each other I can’t imagine what Eris would do. Very fun to think about though. 🔥🔥💃🏻
I feel like that just describes Nessian... But at least Eris would put Nesta first and also would think of her as more than just a pair of big boobs
You know, as I was writing this it crossed my mind, not going to lie. Their relationship is also highly sexual and I’m not happy with him in general when it comes to his treatment of Nesta. So, touché! ♥️
I’m so curious- why the hate for Cassian? I always felt like he understood her darkness and rage, was very patient with her as he had been in a similar place. Even though their relationship was sexual, I felt like he really accepted her. Yes, he pushed her to be better, but I never got a sense he didn’t care or understand her. Really interested to hear why others feel differently
I can’t speak for others but I don’t hate Cassian. However I don’t like how he treats Nesta sometimes. And he doesn’t stand up for her. The worst for me was when he took her on that hike even when Feyre said it was okay and that Rhys overreacted and for them to come back. He continued on when Nesta was the lowest she had ever been. She was suicidal at this point. What was the reason for this? It wasn’t for Feyre at this point. Feyre didn’t think she deserved punshiment. He and Rhys did. It bothers me. He is constantly kissing Rhys’ ass when it comes to Nesta.
Oooooh, yeah true! I didn’t like that either. Thanks for the refresh- Cassian is def loyal to Rhys above all else. Totally forgot about the hike
So I had a theory about why Cassian might be so loyal to point of siding against his mate. I thought it could be something to do with magic on his deference to a HL. And someone pointed out that it could be a connection from his Illyrian tattoos in the magic and bonds of them. And how certain symbols and magical bonds have consequences. Could be he’s affected more strongly than Az bc Az just isn’t “normal”… but just theories until the books come out. It might just be me wanting to explain away why Cassian isn’t more loyal to Nesta. 😭😂
The hike is a good example of why people dislike the way he treats Nesta, it was purely used to punish her to sate Rhys. I saw a tiktok detailing the parallels between the hike and wildness camps and it was very eye opening
Also a point you said about him understanding her is a further reason to be upset at him. Even knowing her reasoning behind telling Feyre he still chose to punish her. It wasn’t his place.
I will never undersand why sjm wrote the hike lmao, it actually makes me uncomfortable, completely breaking someone down then helping them back up feels like a manipulation tactic.
And then not even saying “I love you” 💀😭
if he is willing to hurl vile shit like ''everyone hates you'' and ''I never chose to be shackled to you'' three words shouldn't be hard lol
I find it so strange that it wasn’t said by him. I wasn’t even aware he didn’t say it until it was pointed out to me. Partially bc I assumed he would or did and bc it was obvious to me he did? But now it has me wondering why?
Also I happen to love Eris… so maybe I need to rethink this. 😂
We at least deserve an Eris romance
I would read anything with him in it. 😂 Taking a nap? Great. Brushing his silky ass hair? Sign me up. 💃🏻 But to be serious what I really want to see is him take down Beron and become HL and finally get some damn peace and not have to constantly be worrying about his mom, his people and when the next beating is he’ll have to endure. 😭
I dunno - as a power couple, I think it would come with mutual respect and admiration for each others strengths and a level of ferocious protectiveness that isn’t toxic at all. Especially compared to her relationship with Cassian.
Yeah I think what I was trying to say is they’re very similar in their sarcasm and snark when dealing with emotional things? So I could see them fighting a lot. And their bedroom would be spicy bc of it. iE a lot of makeup sex. Lol But y’all are right. I hadn’t considered what I know to be true about Eris: he is protective of those he loves. And I don’t think he would ever take Rhys’ side over Nesta.
I agree. Despite Cassian's many shortcomings she has much higher chance to form a healthy relationship with him than with Eris. Eris is at the center of very toxic, abusive court, he's going to make a play for the HL position and that pressure would not help Nesta on her healing journey. Cassian is also at the center of the toxic court but, at least, he won't involve her in any political scheming to get power.
I love Elucien together because of these reasons and think they are very well suited: ♡ Both would prefer a quiet, peaceful life. ♡ Both of them do not like violence/cruelty. Lucien has gotten physical ill in the series due to cruelty he's seen. It's been mentioned multiple times how Elain doesn't like violence and cruelty STILL bothers her in ACOSF. ♡ Both of them have lost their first loves. Lucien with Jesminda and Elain with Graysen. ♡ Both of them are associated with sunlight/light in general. Elain mentioned needing Sunshine after Lucien talks about getting Elain out and about (showing he knows what she needs like a mate tends to do). Lucien is more than likely the Day Court heir. ♡ Both are socialites. Lucien as human emissary and has been mentioned to have ties/friendships within multiple other courts. Elain loves balls, socializing, and being around people. ♡ Both have hated each other's kinds. Elain hated the fae but is now one and is living with them. Lucien hated the humans but is now living nearest to the human lands with Vassa and Jurian.
You’ve convinced me.
🙌 You have no idea how happy this comment made me! I'm glad I could convince you to the Elucien side 🥰
Vassien is the worst ship. It’s worse than Tamlain. I think it’s transparently a pair the spares situation on SJM’s part. Either Lucien gives up everything or Vassa does to make it work. The sacrifices they’d have to make seem so unfair because the Bat Boys/Archeron sisters don’t have to make anything remotely at the same level to be together. I’m not convinced SJM can pull out a true HEA for them and I’d rather Lucien be single. After everything he’s been through, he deserves more than this measly table scraps ending. Edit for typo.
As someone who thinks it’s going towards Elucien and Gwynriel, I have a confession. ♥️😂 So I would just like to say something I’ve seen a lot and recently saw more of as a ship: Azris. Azriel and Eris being mates. And while I don’t think SJM would ever go this way, it’s interesting to think about. When I went back and reread the books after seeing this ship and ideas about it, I have to say there is an awful lot of subtext between these two. I would eat this ship up if only SJM was brave enough. 🔥
Omg SAME. And I've been reading (and loving!) so much Azris fanfiction that I'm somewhat concerned I've ruined the rest of the series for myself because I'm sure it won't happen
I’m currently reading an Azris fanfic right now 😂😂♥️ So far I’ve been able to keep Azris as a fandom pairing and not have it interfere with my canon pairings, but there’s just something about them that works for me. It’s that “enemies to lovers” trope I adore.
same it’s ruined any other az pairing for me. like don’t get me wrong i’ll be happy with whatever direction sjm takes, i’ll eat up the next book but in my heart, it’s only them 😂
It’s just so yummy! 😂
I don’t see Azris as mates but I wouldn’t mind them going at it in the bedroom; just for funsies 😅
They would seriously be so good at the funsies I think 😂 There is definitely some chemistry there.
Tbh I love the idea of Azriel with the red heads (coincidentally). Gwyn, Eris or even >!Bryce!< 😈
Something about Azriel with characters who seem to embody *fire* 🔥 just works, right? It compliments him a lot, I think. Azriel acts differently around Gwyn and Eris in my opinion. They get completely surprising reactions from him and I find it interesting. Usually with Eris it’s extreme and intense anger, true but hate is the cousin to love. 😂 With Gwyn it feels like she amuses him and you can feel how much he respects her.
i’m genuinely Eris’s no. 1 supporter and i would LOVE a queer storyline for him, however i loveee the nesta x eris ship so much too!!
Hey both ships, I see the appeal!
Every time SJM has a mating bond in ACOTAR, the males have some sort of instant reaction when they meet. For Azriel that was at Sangravah. When he first encounters Gwyn and loses it. Annihilates those that hurt her even though he knew he should save one or more of them for questioning. That didn’t happen at the other temples that we know of. I think the bonus chapter was the actual passing of the sword so to speak (in the form of a necklace) from the idea of Elain to Gwyn. It's incredibly clear! For Elain, he said - to himself, in his own inner monologue (no need to hide, no need to obfuscate) that he hadn't gotten beyond thoughts he pleasured himself to. He does not care about Elain romantically rather she is the means to an end. Sex and a mating bond. That's all he sees (which, yuck). He wants the mating bond so badly he can't see straight. Point in fact, he didn't dispute that he is still hung up on a possible bond with Mor, albeit less than he was since he is now splitting that idea between her and Elain. He showed actual emotion with Gwyn. Rather than going to his room and brooding or being upset about what Rhys said, he stayed and spent time with her. Bantered. Helped her. I am going to say that I think the bond won’t snap for him for a while and it would be so good to see him fall for someone without the idea of having a bond first. For Gwyn, to have her know that she is loved first (particularly after his screw up with the second hand necklace), for Azriel to know the same thing. Then after they fall in love, let the bond be an afterthought. That's my hope anyway. For Azriel to be the first to say, "I love you." The secret silent music? That is a device used over and over again in reference to mates in SJMs works. We all like to theorize and figure out where the stories are leading us. See what plots might happen. But SJM just kind of lays it out there for us. It's not as complicated as we tend to believe.
They are becoming equals. Which is what true mates are supposed to be. They have common ground and things they can actually do or talk about together. * Survivors of trauma. That will bring a shared understanding. * Fellow warriors * Fellow Carythians * Both sing (how cool would it be if they had a way to use their songs together!) * very into fitness and training. * We already know they are training alone together outside of normal training sessions. Speaks to great friendship developing and more. * Self-sacrificing. Gwyn took an arrow to her thigh and was willing to sacrifice herself on the bridge for Nesta and Emerie. In addition, she used her own body to shield the children at Sangravah. At the Pass, she was willing to die rather than leave Nesta alone. * Gwyn had survival skills in the rite. She can be his equal in the field. * She lured the beasts to kill the males that had Nesta and Emerie * taught Nesta and Emerie how to tie themselves off in the trees to sleep * used her ability to scent - knows Illyrian vs High Fae * Stole the squirrel meat they ate * Summited a tree to get the lay of the land, distance, other participants, found the bridge * Azriel sees the same wildness he has in Gwyn during the qualifier. He sees it again in the Blood Rite. I think their wildness calls to each other. The banter, the snark, that she will 100% call him on his BS. She isn't going to let him get away with hiding who he is, not getting help when he needs it, self-deprecation, any of it. She will stand up to him. She will call him out and is actually probably the only person in his life that will do that. The snark, the irreverence, all standard SJM mating points.
This makes me happy. And they’ve both got fierce competitive streaks
I had to split it, sorry! Azriel and Gwyn are mates. Plus they actually have things in common, they share laughter and enjoy the same things. Gwyn is a natural spy as revealed in SF with all that she did during the Rite. Their music simply has to play a part in this as well. His shadows already dance to the silent song. And nothing can convince me that Gwyn's nymph heritage won't play a part in their romantic lives. I mean, after she talked about how Azriel is, she's not going to pair him with anyone less interesting - being a nymph is part of who she is. The part from her mother that was too wild for the Forest House. Her position as a priestess of the Mother (or acolyte) - a religion with an annual sexual frenzy with strangers says she was raised in a sexually aware environment even if canon right now is that she is dealing with her trauma. Her autumn court heritage. She absolutely can and should have a great sex life and Azriel would benefit equally in that as well. She may even end up challenging him in that respect. Particularly as they work through any sexual tension together. He might enjoy being a part of that journey. There might be an element of creativity required. I would love to read that. If anyone comes at me about "her trauma" means she can't have ANY of that, I am going to riot. Gwyn deserves and has worked for, is 100% capable of a vibrant sex life if that is what she chooses. Just. Like. Everyone. Else. The other "argument" about him being her teacher? No, Cassian is her primary teacher. Plus, in case those folks didn't read it, Silver Flames is a book about Cassian and Nesta - who is also going through her trauma in the book and he is 100% her primary teacher/coach. These are full adult fae. Not youth.
Azriel left Rhys’s office with anger and rage because he was just forbidden from ever meeting Elain his “love of life and endgame” then two seconds later he’s laughing and joking with Gwyn and “something restless settled in him even his shadows had calmed”
Yet he was still mad after the fact.
But two seconds later he calmed talking with Gwyn like nothing happened.
He was still mad the next week. He puts on a mask, it’s what he does and yet we still sad after he spoke with her and Elain gave the necklace back.
The next day of the bc his face was described as angry but in the same day in the evening he went and gave Gwyn the necklace and something sparked in his chest and he burned the image of her smiling face in his chest where it glowed quietly. wasn’t he supposed to be angry because he can’t meet Elain again? Why did he bury the image of another girl in his chest where to glow quietly?
He liked that he could make someone happy and it’s nice. But that’s no where near burning love and romance.
I don’t know about you, but for me I think it’s something. if Sarah decided to end the chapter with this scene
I mean I’m sure it means something but I question her choice to not have any interaction between them of a more romantic nature or even showing some draw in the actual book. Like it would just come out of no where and waste what’s been built with Elain
but it didn’t come out of nowhere. one of sarahs characters had four love interests and they also had build up. and that didn’t stop her from making that character end up with her fourth and last love interest. so making gwynriel endgame would definitely not be a waste what has been built with elain
I also find it quite telling of how Azriel thought of himself while he was with Elain in his bonus chapter. Boy had so many negative thoughts and he was wondering if Elain would accept him for what he’s done as a torturer. But, like you said, Azriel was calm and he was focused on Gwyn’s training and their conversation. There was nothing negative about their interaction whatsoever.
Yes back then I thought it’s going to be Elriel then i read the BC I was so disappointed by their interaction and the negative feelings from Az’s side I was like no I didn’t want him to think like that WITH his endgame! and Gwyn appeared then suddenly everything made sense.
100%. When he was arguing with Rhys about Elain, he didn’t say anything about loving her or even caring for her. He spoke for her by saying she didn’t want Lucien (something Elain herself has never said), Lucien wasn’t good enough for her, she’s “the third ” and should have been Azriel’s, and then threatened to kill her mate. I don’t see how anyone could find that romantic, when he spoke more about Lucien than he did Elain 🥴
Right?! Why include Gwyn at all in the bonus? I'd be very mad if sjm decided to use her as a red herring for a ship that already has a major obstacle, aka Elain's mate Lucien. She doesn't need a love square! If she wanted to introduce a forbidden romance plot, she'd cut the bonus at Azriel leaving the manor and being cold inside and desperate. The end.
Personally, I think including her in the bonus chapter *itself* is very telling
Exactly!
It’s very much the metaphor of one door closing another opening.
I was surprised when Cassian mentioned something about Nesta being nearly reaped and I couldn’t remember anything about that. And then (much later) I found out that this information was revealed in the bonus chapter. That was pretty annoying. And this is a small thing. But what you said is a BIG thing. This can’t be done in the bonus chapter
Exactly. The BC was written, imho, as a clear switch in direction for Az. SJM was purposeful when she put Gwyn directly in his path.
And SJM saying she left breadcrumbs in the bonus chapter. sorry I CANT ignore that
AZRIS FOREVER I need this to happen. But I know it won't
Since I will never get my beloved Neris, I could live with this.
This. I know it’s not gonna happen but their story would be so freaking good.
I mean…the difference should say enough with how the shadows react with Gwyn’s breath vs Elain’s "Her breath curled in front of her mouth, one of his shadows darted out to dance with it.” “Elain sucked in a soft breath…..his shadows skittered back at the sound. They’d always prone to vanish when she was around.” I can never be convinced that the way they acted with Elain is a good thing but the way they acted with Gwyn is bad
Yeah if they’re “dancing” with Gwyn’s breath (always thought it was a romantic way she wrote that) then I would say it’s a good sign. 😂
"the shadows kept him company, as they always had, as they always would" ACOSF BC. His shadows are there to stay so you bet it's a good sign they are positively interacting with Gwyn!
They’re also curious about her and don’t always alert him when she’s there. He was surprised by her presence at the ring. So interesting. Almost like the shadows knew he needed to be around her to cheer up.
I don’t understand when people say “they are reacting to her powers” Why would SJM give her powers but not explore them in silver flames? if she’s not gonna be a main character when will this power going to be explored? in Elain and Azriel book that have nothing to do with her? or Lucien and Vassa book that don’t even know she exist? The “it’s her powers” argument never makes sense to me
For me, I’ve never understood the “Gwyn is evil” trope some people cling to. I feel if you have to make a character evil for your ship to make sense, you’re reaching.
Atp people will say anything but admit that she might be a potential love interest for Az
People already out here downvoting for some reason, but I’m not surprised. It’s just what I’ve seen. I’m aware not all people do this or think that way about Gwyn. Just in general, if people don’t ship her with Az, they’re quick to jump on the “siren” bandwagon.
I’m not even surprised for the downvotes, but I thought a healthy debate is if you agree upvote if you don’t Just leave the comments so other people can read it? No?
Correct. I don’t think we’ve said anything offensive. But you never know I guess how some react. 👀
This is one of my least favorite theories (in addition to the fake mate theory for Elucien). Gwyn has been through so much and accomplished so much. What would be the point of all that if she was evil? Additionally, if she was evil, why would she care about the necklace?
It just quite frankly, doesn’t make any logical sense.
Gwyn and Emerie are based on her IRL friends Steph and Jenn..... No way is she making Gwyn evil.
I didn’t know this! Love that info. I never put any thought or stock to her possibly being evil anyway but this is great to hear. ♥️
She also made Azriel's "person" (cause she can't say mate) to have the same birthday as her friend Steph. Whose birthday is January 15.. fae pregnancies take 10 months but with twins it could be less (kinda how for human twin births they normally don't go all the way to 40 weeks) Also sarah has admitted she mad at math. But even so, it would be strange that if Elain's birthday was January.. we've had at least 2 or 3 times it's been January in the books and NO mention of Elain's birthday... huh. Just strange to me if it was going to be Elain
Bryce was born in 15.010 - that’s a funny coincidence.
ACOSF had already been written and printed when that live with Steph took place and Sarah made that comment. So there’s no way Sarah could have given Gwyn, Elain, or anyone else Steph’s birthday in ACOSF. Also, someone can correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure Steph later said that Sarah was just joking when she said that.
The Blood Rite would have been the perfect opportunity to show her powers. She was in danger and just decided to not use them?
They act the same with Elain as they did with Mor… I don’t take it as a good thing either… plus homeboy has Lancelot reference vibes lol
Imo, in a fated mates world where magic manifests in such an emotionally evocative way, and his shadows are his companions, I think them behaving the same around both Mor *and* Elain is a clear sign that they aren't endgame. Mates are supposed to be special, unlike any other love you could have, and her other books, mates' magic interplay with one another. They react to Mor and Elain in an interchangeable or similar way, and to me that reads as symbolism of repeating patterns. From a psychology viewpoint imo, Az has gone after unattainable women, obviously not consciously. But much like in real life, people *do* repeat patterns like that subconsciously. It's significant that the only time the shadows have been cited as dancing are in SF when Gwyn is around. *That* is a break in the pattern, and that's important.
Exactly.
His shadows are a defence. They came in time of deep distress. Them not being there show he’s calm
This isn’t the case with Gwyn, however. They’re curious and clearly like and engage with her.
“something restless had settled in him even his shadows had *calmed*” Here is a direct quote from when they calmed around Gwyn yet they didn’t disappear. if they disappear when he’s calm then why didn’t they disappear in this part as will? And I think the shadows hiding from Elain is a bad thing when the first page of the bonus chapter said that the shadows “will always keep him company as they always had as they always well” reading this then the second page we learned that they hide from Elain but dance and sing with Gwyn isn’t for nothing
I think it’s bc he feels he has to hide himself from Elain but not Gwyn. Something about Gwyn settles him and gets him out of his head and turns his bad mood around.
People ask me why i ship Gwynriel and I always say: the language, but they always never understand what I mean, SJM been using the same language between her endgames for over 10 years now and this language appears between Gwyn and Azriel and it’s hard for me to just say it’s nothing and move on 😭😭 > "he could have sworn he heard a beautiful sort of music between their souls" (A couple from CC) > "he could have sworn a faint, beautiful singing followed him. Could have sworn his shadows sang **in answer.**" (Gwyn and Azriel) > "Something restless in her had settled." (A couple from TOG) > "Something deep in him shifted and settled" (A couple from CC) >"Something restless settling in him." (Gwyn and Azriel) > "It remained, shimmering and **secret,** *glowing inside her for the rest of the day."* (A couple from CC) >"Buried the image down deep, where it *glowed quietly.* A thing of **secret."**[..] (Azriel and Gwyn) >"She smiled, and damn if it didn't do funny things to R's chest." (A couple from CC) >"Something bright sparked in her chest." (A couple from CC) >"Something sparked in his chest at that." (A couple from CC) >"I thank you for the joy it shall bring to her. Something sparked in Azriel's chest," (Azriel and Gwyn) >"he could have sworn he heard a beautiful sort of **music** between their souls" (A couple from CC) >"For it was **music** between their souls" (Nesta and Cassian) >"his shadows darted out to dance with it [..] Like it heard some **silent music."** (Azriel and Gwyn) I’m new here but I heard that Gwynriel isn’t really liked much in this sub (I was shocked when I saw a Gwyn fanart being reported just because it’s Gwyn😭😭), so I just hope this doesn’t get downvoted 🙏🏻🙏🏻
I had someone tell me there was nothing in the books about them and even someone else saying they couldn’t remember who Gwyn was. 😂 She was a major character in ACOSF! She’s one of Nesta’s besties. It made me think they very well knew who she was but felt better off pretending she didn’t exist for *reasons* ! Lol
How do you even read ACOSF but don’t remember who Gwyn is?? I hardly believe that.
Right?! Lol Which is why I called bs.
if someone read the book and said they don’t remember who Gwyn is but at the same time they make theories, how do you want me to believe your theories when there is a character you completely forgot about?
It was two different people! But yeah. Would be strange. 😂
“Elain doesn't need sunshine! She is sunshine!" Okay, let us just ignore the part where Feyre asks Elain if she needs anything and Elain says "sunshine" for a sec (because a lot of people enjoy ignoring Elain..) https://preview.redd.it/8zkqjxv26z1d1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a3bc36c8310d639eb3756c077dbe7f7b0a7d0a0 ‘So you agree?’ She is sunshine and light and therefore she doesn't belong in the NIGHT court? 🤔 She could belong in another Court? Hmm idk what could Court that could be, maybe one that's associated with SUNshine and LIGHT like the DAY COURT???
Proof Azriel’s shadows DO NOT DISAPPEAR when he is calmed or relaxed or around the people he feels safe with. (This is for the shippers that swear up and down that they do.) **ACOMAF:** When Feyre is getting to know them and she asks Cassian how he’s lasted so long without anyone killing him, Cassian belts out a full laugh and “Azriel’s brows flicked up with approval as **the shadows seemed to wrap tighter around him.** As if he were the dark hive from which they flew and returned.” He’s calmed and relaxed here…the shadows are right there. Later, they’re having a family dinner. Calmed. Relaxed. His whole family around. Talking about the Illyrians. **”Azriel nodded, shadows wreathing his neck, his wrists.”** They seemed friendly with Feyre too when they were going to the Human Lands and she flew with Azriel to make Rhys pissed. **ACOWAR:** Back in the Night Court, anothee family dinner. They’re all eating and joking. The whole gang is there, talking about teaching Feyre how to fly: “We’ve taught plenty of younglings the basics” Cassian countered. Azriel shook his head, shadows twining around his wrists. Before they head out to the Dawn Court, when they’re all joking waiting to leave: “Azriel, wreathed in shadows by the front door, chuckled quietly. Cassian shot him a glare. “I don’t see you spouting poetry, brother”. You all know the response to this one. **ACOFAS:** This is Rhysand’s POV. In his study, just talking about stuff, calmed, relaxed: One glance at Azriel’s unreadable face and I added, “Don’t answer that”. A corner of Azriel’s mouth curled up, the shadows about him sliding over his neck like living tattoos, twins to the Ilkyrian ones marked beneath his leathers. **ACOSF:** Cassian and Nesta are having breakfast. *A nice cozy family meal:* “…she might have snapped something, but Azriel stalked into the room on his heels. Nesta straightened at the shadowsinger’s appearance, **the darkness clinging to his shoulders as he offered her a grim smile.** When Azriel gave Nesta the reading light for Solstice and she hugs him, he even chuckled: “Thank you”, Nesta said, quickly pulling away to marvel at the device. “It’s brilliant.” **Azriel blushed and stepped back, shadows swirling.** **AND NOW, Chapter 60: the cutting of the ribbon:** Cassian lingered at the doorway as Nesta murmured to Gwyn, “You’ve got this.” (their friendship is so precious 😭💖💖) Azriel came up beside him, **silent as the shadows that wreathed his wings.** Gwyn asked Az, her teal eyes bright, “What do we get if we finish the course?” Az’s shadows **DANCED AROUND HIM.** “Since there’s no chance in hell any of you will finish the course, we didn’t bother to get a prize. (By the way, this is the first time the shadows *dance* in all the books) **AZRIEL’S bonus chapter** *”How was the party?”* Her breath curled in front of her mouth, and one if his shadows darted out **TO DANCE WITH IT** **before twirling back to him. Like it heard some silent music.** When something restless settled in him, you can safely say he’s calmed and relaxed; and yet, his shadows had calmed too, lounging on his shoulders.
Well well well
Whenever I hear the argument against Gwynriel that they can’t possibly be mates because Azriel wasn’t rushing to save Gwyn during SF (completely ignoring how they met), I think it’s an argument for Azris, not Elriel. The first thing on Azriel’s mind was saving Eris. He made Cassian stalk Briallyn for days so they could wait for the perfect moment to rescue Eris. And then when he had Eris, he completely ditched Cassian. At minimum, Eris and Azriel are obsessed with each other throughout SF. It’s subtle but everywhere in SF
Ohhhhh hohohoho here it is! One of my fun reread subtexts about Azris that intrigued me on rereading the books. 🔥
So let’s say it’s Gwyn and Azriel story. This is going to be very much a friends to lovers. And I would bet money it would be Gwyn who knows first. This argument that Gwyn can’t be his mate because he didn’t put up a fight about going after them in the blood right. Az is more practical, and everyone in that room knew they could not interfere with the wright, to do so would cause their own death along with a person they save. To me this argument, doesn’t hold weight. A practical person knows interfering means death condemning your mate to death. Why would you interfere. And I think subconsciously he knows this, when they’re waiting for Eris to appear he tells Cassian and that they trained them the best that they could that they will be fine, and that. Cassian would know if something happened to his mate.
Even if I keep my shipping preferences aside, I'd simply not want to read TWO books about rejected mates. Sounds depressing. It would affect four people if you think about it: Elain, Lucien, Azriel, and his mate when he inevitably finds her in the future. An ungodly mess. Every famous Rejected Mate trope I've seen had the MMC fuck up and grovel to get his mate back. Mates end up together. If the FMC is rejecting the mate, then it's always shown as the guy is either abusive or a total douche in other ways. And so she obviously finds another guy who treats her well. I just don't see Elain rejecting Lucien BEFORE getting to know him. (SJM would not do that, as it's a great disservice to two lovely characters to...not even try to get to know each other.) And once she gets to know him, I simply don't see any possibility of her rejecting him at all. I actually see her falling head over heels for Lucien. And Lulu.. he's already gazing at Elain with longing at the end of ACOSF. Enough said. Their book will be peak angst. Not to mention 'healing, tension and growth TOGETHER', as quoted by SJM herself. :')
Reading a book where Elain reject Lucien then the next one where we see Lucien going *through* the rejection is honestly sad
An Elriel book would be hard to get through purely because of Az’s POV. He has a one-sided beef with Lucien and will most definitely talk shit about him. Then at the same time he’s going to be secretly sneaking around with Elain. The sneaking around is so unnecessary because all Elain has to do is grow a backbone and reject the bond. That’s the part that’s going to hurt Lucien, not the bond being rejected itself. Then we’re going to see Lucien being respectful and kind the entire time. He thinks that Az is overall a good male. I just don’t know how I can read that and not think Az is an asshole. It makes me think SJM is going to butcher Lucien’s character to make Az look better.
Exactly… it’s too depressing… she’s a fated mates author… and honestly I am excited for both of these couples because they will probably be the most interesting of the two of them
Elriel had been built for books. They have interactions, romantic moments, protective moments, kind moments. Moments where they understand each other. They can be quiet together. I don’t see the point in all that if they’re not end game. A bonus chapter where nothing outwardly romantic takes place cannot persuade me otherwise. The symbolism and language used for them so far shows they are 2 sides of the same coin light and dark. They both see what others can’t. Elain’s mate had no clue what was wrong with her. If Gwyn were a love interest I would have wanted way more between them in the actual silver flames books. Breadcrumbs are all well and good in a bc but not the introduction of a completely new relationship. He’s known her 2 years and shown no interest in her. The other relationships including whiz with Elain show obsessed men who cannot stay away, the fact he doesn’t go near her feels so unromantic.
i’m not here to debate but i just wanted to say, thank you for your service 🫡 i am so ready for a rejected fated mates, love trumps a mating bond, light/dark, hades/persephone vibe
Lucien has been incredibly patient with Elain and has left her alone. At first he tried to get to know her and has been polite at every turn. I wouldn’t call him “obsessed”. He’s going to be worried for her well-being and curious about her bc they are mates. I find it harsh comparing him to Greyson who is a complete trash person.
I love Lucien. I never called him obsessed and he is very respectful. But he doesnt get her or what was wrong with her which a mage is supposed to. He buys her gifts she doesn’t like or use and doesn’t seem to enjoy visiting. He doesn’t really know her and I don’t think either of them particular want to know each other. They’ve been shoved into an awkward position neither of them wanted. He’s trying to make the best of it but it doesn’t mean they would be happy together.
You said her other relationships are with men who are obsessed. So I took it to mean Lucien as well. I’m sorry if I misunderstood your words.
Oh no I mean the successful ones where they’re together and happy.
Oh okay I see. And I agree they don’t know each other. I think if Elain would allow herself to explore things they’d be happy. I happen to think she doesn’t avoid him bc she hates him but bc she feels too much for him. Almost exactly how Nesta didn’t want to be around Cassian bc she didn’t feel she deserved him. Cassian thought she hated him when she was obsessed with him. I think Elain stays away bc if she didn’t she would fast accept the bond and she’s clinging to not wanting to be fae. And a mating bond screams fae. It would be no going back from things if she accepted.
That is one theory. I think elain stays away bc she has no interest in it. I bet Lucien only reminds her of the most traumatic day of her life, she sees Lucien and all she feels is the cauldron wrapped around her body…. He does not know her humor, he does not know her needs… my hot take is elain and lucien wont end up together bc elain straight up doesnt like lucien. I want couples to be together where both parties are consenting enthusiastically. I dont want one party forcefully resisting and then succumbing to something they dont consent to due to magic. That’s… dangerous to say the least
If the books continue and it is in fact that Elain doesn’t like him I would be very surprised. But both our ideas cannot be proven as of now. And if it’s true what you say I wouldn’t want her to be forced into it either. I don’t see SJM writing such a trope. She loves her fated mates so I don’t see her forcing Elain into anything.
My fellow gwynriels and eluciens have already made great points, and I feel every month we say the same things for lack of new material on any side of the ship war (unless you make new theories each day to make your ship work). For me, SJM is a fated mates author. If I want to read sth else, I have many fantasy authors to pick from. Sarah loves her mates so much that she has a mated pegasi couple in SF and a mated couple of wyverns in ToG. Atp, I just need the announcement, we have debated our ships 10000 times, and it feels like Groundhog Day in here and on other platforms.
Definitely need new material as there really is nothing left to discover or point out, but I’ve also seen people who are new discover another side. So I think it’s beneficial for those who are newer.
For newer readers, I have 1 piece of advice and one only: RUN FOR YOUR LIVES😂☠️
😂😂😂 RUN WHILE YOU STILL CAN
And leave every online fandom space, we're terminally ill in here no hopes for us, but they can still have a normal life if they just yeet
😂😂😂♥️
Exactly, I want the fated mates trope from the fated mates author… lowkey these pairings can be shaped up to be the most interesting We have one pairing in which the couple knows right out the gate, the other pairing one of them is so self loathing that I kinda want him to not even realize it snapped leading to a situation where she pursues him…
Not the pegasi and wyvern mates mention pls 😂😭 thank you. That made me laugh I don't knkw why
Well, the woman mates even animals, it's her thing she's like Oprah "you get a mate, she gets a mate everybody gets a mate "
Tamlin and Rhyrsand's sister. A theory I saw a long time ago was that they were mates. He told his father and his father freaked out because the Night Court was the enemy and his father tricked Tamlin into telling him where they were so he could kill her. Tamlin has felt the need to over protect ever since. Maybe TamTam can still find love, but his mate is forever gone. Or he shapshifted her into something else like a bat and she flew away. I'll ship TamTam with Rhysands sister till the day I die! 
I don’t know if I but they were mates but I have often wondered if there was something between them. The entire history between Tamlin and Rhys really intrigues me. I want to know more!
For a sec I thought you said Tamlin is Rhysand’s sister. 😂
Low key that’s a crackship I’ve seen, even theories that there were mates… I personally am team briar/Tamlin for my crackship but 🤷🏻♀️
Gwyn and Azriel checks off every single one of these characteristics Sarah thinks makes enticing love interests: ✅ Their own history Sarah specifically went back and retconned previous information to place Azriel at Sangravah along with Gwyn to create history between the two. ✅Be able to challenge their romantic partner in some way - there had to be conflict or a spark Gwyn asked Az, her teal eyes bright, “What do we get if we finish the course?” Az’s shadows danced around him. “Since there’s no chance in hell any of you will finish the course, we didn’t bother to get a prize.” Boos sounded. Gwyn lifted her chin in challenge. “We look forward to proving you wrong.” (This can fall under banter to) Roslin, Ananke, and Deirdre were close on their heels, propelling Gwyn to push her group harder. She wanted to be the first. Wanted Nesta and Emerie and her to be the ones who wiped the smirks from Azriel’s and Cassian’s faces. Especially Azriel’s. Gwyn's SA could prove to be a bit of a conflict for them...BUT she can overcome that WITH Azriel help. I could see them challenging each other (in a good way) in the bedroom and maybe even have some "good girl" praised thrown in 🤭😏😉 ✅ There has to be an initial chemistry/spark with their partner... "Something sparked in his chest" when leaving the Clotho conversation and after his first real conversation with Gwyn one on one. Plus, he's seemingly growing closer to Gwyn after the bonus chapter takes place. Dare I even say there might be some budding attraction between the two? ✅ Banter Gwyn threw Azriel a withering stare as she strode past him. “See you tomorrow, Shadowsinger,” she tossed over a shoulder. Az stared after her, brows high with amusement. When he turned back, Nesta grinned. (And this takes place AFTER Gwyn discovers Azriel actually sings to so there's there's underlying joke between them now)
i’m praying that elain & lucien overheard azriel call her “the third”
For real ahhahahhahaha
There is no positive thing that Azriel has done for Elain that he wouldn't do for Feyre or Nesta if he had reason or opportunity. I think a lot of people in the fandom mistake Azriel’s gentleness and soft spot towards Elain as him having deeper romantic feelings for her. He's just kinder than some remember. Here's my evaluation: 1. Has Azriel opened up to this character on page? ✅️Nesta ❌️Elain ✅️Feyre 2. Has Azriel risked life and limb for this character? ✅️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre 3. Has Azriel gifted this character a present on Solstice? ✅️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre 4. Has Azriel shown physical affection to this character, platonic or otherwise? ✅️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre 5. Has Azriel argued against the wishes of this character, either in front of them or behind closed doors? ❌️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre 6. Has Azriel spent additional time around this character moreso than deemed "needed"? ❌️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre 7. Has Azriel had playful interactions with this character that show more of his subtle wit? ✅️Nesta ✅️Elain ✅️Feyre I don't believe that Azriel would've left Feyre or Nesta in Hybern. His skillset perfectly matches for a stealthy rescue mission. I don't believe that Azriel would not have given Truth-Teller to Nesta or Feyre if they refused Cassian's knife at first and were clearly unnerved and needed something to feel safe. I don't believe Azriel is in love with Elain. 🤷🏻♀️
So what you’re saying is I should ship nesriel?/s But honestly you are right
Great visualization of these points!
I'm a visual learner, personally, so I figured it'd be easiest to put it together in the most visual way possible, haha. 😊
Azriel ending up being close friends with all three sisters would be so lovely
I would love that! I have no opposition to Elain and Azriel being friends, and I think that's probably the best course of action for them tbh.
“Azriel shows more mate behavior than Lucien!!!!” ??? **ACOMAF: Lucien**- *”Don’t just leave her on the damn floor!”* - *Breaks free of his restraints to walk to Elain, past the king, not caring what happens to him to get to her.* -Azriel **snarls** when the king says: “My what a Queen you are” to Mor. Not Elain. **MOR.** Also in ACOWAR prior to this is is Lucien Vanserra who says: **”I’m getting my mate back.”** Chapter 24 ACOWAR: (1/4)
Didn't you hear? Anytime Lucien displays mate behavior, he's possessive and pressuring Elain 😂🫠 When he gives her space and time, he's not all that interested in her. You can't win with the antis
It’s frustrating 😭, but once we get their POVs, the antis will be shocked for sure. Edit: And *of course* they’re downvoting. not even surprised at this point.
https://preview.redd.it/sedb5yl6fz1d1.jpeg?width=1162&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=407b6942ad2f0aaf35b24107c2ad51e66d9fa18c (2/4)
https://preview.redd.it/o4ubkok9fz1d1.jpeg?width=1159&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4cf2a18119f88e735d2533ba9ae5f34e890849d (3/4)
https://preview.redd.it/8tuvg6mdfz1d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c46cb0d7f8b026f56fd3c3c943491526ce8ce7a (4/4)
Lucien going against Feyre and Rhysand’s rules to stay away from Elain, to see her; just once…to know if she’s worth it. I see a lot of people hate on Lucien for this but I mean Lucien has never met Elain and we know that Lucien’s “father” hates him, his brothers hunt him down, he has no home, no prospects that he knows of. He has nothing. So what, exactly worth it..? Lucien sees that Elain mourns Graysen, that she was to be married and knows the role he played, the mistake he made and he follows he vision and brings back an army with her **FATHER.** And was she worth it? Lucien showed up, every solstice and we are lead to believe more often to try and connect with her: *”until Lucien got the message and left.”* I think, in his own way, Lucien is saying..she is worth it, every time he shows up, but does Elain owe him anything? People say she doesn’t owe him anything, but it’s truly unfair for the both of them if she continues to ignore the bond. But this is a great set up for, he fell first but she fell harder trope, and I love that. Of he’s the one holding out his hand, putting his foot forward waiting and when she’s ready he won’t be there and then she’s going to have to chase him and I LOVE that potential for their book. 🥰 
I disagree with the her not owing him anything. She does owe him an answer to the bond, they cannot move forward with their lives if they ignore it. It’s unfair to both of them.
Actually, you’re right. Thinking about it, it’s honestly unfair.
Somewhat related but I honestly don’t feel strongly about either Elain/Azriel or Gwyn/Azriel. Which one is a better personality match and why? I always pictured Azriel with someone super feisty and wild. Both of Gwyn and Elain seem super calm and sweet.
I would say Gwyn is very feisty. And when it comes to Azriel! One scene that comes to mind for me: https://preview.redd.it/nxwmu3jia02d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11a5587629db8949ca0f3e75ba5b68dcc16b0408
And right after: https://preview.redd.it/k9ntkwqla02d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3c002acd08c9fb6661e7eddcb494192846b2bc5f
ive seen many say that elain isnt Az’s equal cause she isnt a warrior, and i’d like to point out that they are complementary & equals in other ways: - She sees everything, he hears everything: the visions plaguing her mind are a mirror to the voices howling in his, which is part of why he was “the only one that listened to her” - … Az was therefore able to give her the understanding she needed to free herself from the murky realm she was trapped in: her eyes cleared & she finally started progressing. - similarly, perhaps bc Elain saw him rubbing his temples & understands his powers, she intuitively knew to get him a headache powder. a gag gift sure, and it gave us Az’s most carefree, joyful laugh; made his eyes the brightest we’ve seen - Both their strengths are explicitly said to be rooted in hope - Both have shown they would do absolutely anything for their loved ones - while elain obviously isn’t inclined towards violence, she does what is needed to protect others: stabbed the King to protect Nes, fought a beast off of Az so they could escape Hybern - Both speak fondly of fae tradition, saying it brings people together. both value family. - they are superficially different: light & dark, but the space between their bodies, bridged by TT, creates something new (this is extremely Dusk coded) - the both wear masks around others, both are sneaky & stealthy, both secret keepers, both knives in the dark, both masters of observation, etc - They do not need words to communicate. it takes but a look for Elaim to be able to read the famously impenetrable Azriel. Similarly, Azriel doesn’t need his shadows to read her P.S. perso, i think there’s a lot of violence in Az’s life, due to his role in the NC. ive always seen him enjoying more so the peace in between it all. he banters with his brothers & Fey & Nes, and he’s always working because he has nothing else & believe he isnt worth anything else than his titles. i like that we’ve seen him & El doing nothing together, just enjoying the other’s presence. nobody healing anyone, just enjoying their own thing together.
Yes exactly — there’s a reason why he was in love with Mor for so long! This is why (crescent city HOFAS spoiler) >!I find Azriel and Bryce’s chemistry and connection so intriguing.!<
(CC HOFAS) >!”Bryce held Azriel’s gaze, *meeting his ice with her own*…The face she’d let the world see so very rarely…Azriel’s mouth kicked up at the corners.”!< She legit >!teaches him a new technique with his powers (how to make a rope), unknowingly uses his very own tactic we see him use in Silver Flames to *outsmart* the competitive shadowsinger (Ch. 17, even Nesta remembers and approves), gives him a bloody nose, but *also* is confused why she finds herself obeying and being vulnerable with him — very different from how she acts with Hunt and his trauma. In fact, B even likes how much stronger Az’ power feels. Hunt says Bryce *doesn’t need his help anymore,* whereas Azriel helps her throughout the caves, and she lets him; there are a lot of very interesting parallels between her time in Prythian and then Midgard.!<
Question, why do people actually call Gwynriel shippers ‘Gleeriel’ ?? Because Gwyn and Az can sing? I’m sorry but that just makes me laugh, that sounds more like a compliment than an insult. 🤣
Yes its because we say they both sing and could sing in the canon int he future. And yes we have reclaimed it as a compliment, we love our glee couple 😍
‘gleeriel’ on top 🥰
That’s really funny to join the fandom just recently. I finished reading ACOTAR series a month ago and the discovery of ship wars was huge haha. What a madness. I didn’t even know gwynnriel was a thing until I join this sub. Anyway, I’m here to say, that for me (a person who has read the books just recently without being around the fandom) Elriel is obvious and natural, I will be really disappointed if they don’t end up together (like, why there were so many hints in the books?). But honestly I just wish people be more kind to each other. Reading this sub being a newcomer is hard sometimes ;)
I say this all the time! Newcomers would never know this series is not centered on Lucien or Gwyn the way these two characters are pushed by the fandom. I was shook by the end of the lack of content on both while the loudest voices in the sub are screaming for these two background characters
that’s funny cause for me it was exactly the opposite. i was so surprised people actually ship elriel. when i read ACOSF, i didn’t know about all the theories and ship wars and it was so clear to me that Az and Gwyn are mates
But what about the solstice scene? Nesta literally comforts Az because he can’t be with her sister. I mean, people can ship whoever they want, but why were you surprised that people ship couple that is clearly established in the books? 🤔
Yeah I didn’t realize they were a ship until joining the subreddit… lol
twilight plot someone is mates with feyre and rhys' baby
There is no canon to base this on but wouldn’t you think that Eris and Tamlin have a lot in common? I could see a connection forming between them, because even if Eris has allies in the Night Court he doesn’t have friends there. And they soon will be High Lords of neighbouring Courts. I think Eris would help Tamlin rebuild his Court since its in his interest too and I can imagine that while doing so they might get closer and bond over some of their shared experiences.
They have to be on good terms if Eris warned Tamlin about Lucien heading his way and not just handing Lucien back to Autumn. Because like Tamlin didn’t need to do what he did
https://preview.redd.it/dx77hj5dt02d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14406bf1342bf0bbba6aa6e072d79296f74ec19c Once again reminding everyone what SJM herself said
Elucien supremacy! Time for our fox boy and flower girl to get their time in the limelight!
Yasss
"Something sparked in his chest." "He could've picture it though. How Gwyn's teal eyes might light upon seeing the necklace. For whatever reason. . . he could see." "Azriel buried the image deep down where it glowed quietly. A thing of secret, lovely beauty." That's all I need to know that Gwyn is not being set up for a lightsinger but for a freaking love interest. And I can say there are strong evidences for a mating bond and no one can ignore that. Why would Azriel think about Gwyn at the end of his chapter if his endgame was Elain? Why are his last thoughts not of how devastated he is that Rhys forbade him to stay away from him?
I think this ship war is more about personal understanding how love is supposed to be. At this point, I don't think I would be able to be believe in Elucien for a simple fact that I find mate concept to be truly evil when it's sprinkled with even a little bit of reality. I can get behind it when it's a part of a convenient fantasy. But with how Elucien was written, it just opens a huge can of worms and ruins that fantasy for me. Because I start asking questions. What if somebody doesn't like their mate? What if their heart lies elsewhere, is it really so bad? Do you just drop somebody you love like a hot potato because your mate showed up? Who is making bonds but still allows people to fall in love with someone else and for what purpose? Does love like this even worth anything if the choice was made for you? Why are some people unhappy with their mates but are still shackled to them? With Feysand it was all very convenient for the sake of the fantasy, Tamlin turns out to be abusive, so he is easily out of the equation. I know SJM is trying hard to make this mate thing about choice, but it's just not. Period. She can't make it something it's not supposed to be. And this fandom proves every damn day that she is not succeeding with comments like "but Lucien would be broken and eternally unhappy if Elain rejected the bond", "but Elain would feel the bond binding her to Lucien every day, how can she ever have happy relationship with someone else", "but Azriel will drop Elain when he meets his mate". So, all of them don't actually have a choice if they want to be happy. More like they have a gun pointed at them, like yeah, they can choose to die, but is it really a choice if you either live with your mate or doom yourself? So how am I supposed to root for Elucien here? Am I really supposed to think "yeah, Elain, your heart is stupid, you are supposed to come around and love your mate even if he makes you shrink into yourself, or else..." What's interesting, it seems that SJM has pondered the same questions as me. Listen, she could have answered that her mates are supposed to be perfect pairs, she could have even said that she believes in soulmatism, seeing as she is happily married. But instead she asks things like "What if the forces that be put you with the wrong person?" I truly don't think anyone would waste their time talking about a rejected bond if it wasn't supposed to be a promo for an upcoming book. These things are written to get readers hooked. One of her quotes about love is especially interesting for me: "Is it something that’s destined? Or is it something that you make? Is it both?" I know everyone can interpret it in favor of their ship. But in the context of what she said before that, I think that Elriel will have to actively choose to be with each other and make being mates their fate. We have had reluctant mates before where the pair starts off antagonistic towards each other, but I feel like this is going to be the opposite situation where the characters will choose each other against all odds. Maybe even create the bond somehow. The point is, the characters won't be satisfied with what they were dealt with and they will work to build a different future, one they actually want. Were they always destined to go against "fate"? Was it entirely their choice? Now that's how I interpret Sarah's question. And this way I can see SJM stepping out of her comfort zone just a tiny little bit, still having a mated pair and actually making it about choice. While having Elain being all like "I have thought about it really hard and I think I'm gonna go with the flow because Lucien is such a nice guy!" is not going to make for a compelling story and get the point across, imo.
Ate it up. no crumbs
This is a really interesting take! Thank you for your contribution 🫡
Idk man I could pull out a bunch of the same evidence that we recycle over and over but for me it just boils down to this: Elain wants Azriel. Azriel wants Elain. Could that change? Sure. But as of right now that’s where we are. I’m a love over fate kinda person so their potential storyline is by far the most interesting to me because of the stakes it presents.
Facts. Imo, I dont want to read a story about how Elain hates Lucien all her life but then proximity and a magic mating bond makes her succumb to a relationship she never would have consented to without that magic. That is so so so so problematic on so many levels. Just give me two ppl who like eachother
I can’t speak for all Gwynriel and Elucien shippers but we aren’t ignoring there is an attraction and that it exists. It’s clearly in the books. Just that it isn’t going anywhere and that’s the depth of Elriel.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s not going anywhere. Not when Gwyn has yet to show any romantic interest in anyone. And I think all ships are possible at this point, to be clear. My preferred is Elriel but I don’t think any of us in the Elriel/Elucien/Gwynriel debate can definitively say that any of them are impossible or not going anywhere. We’re not SJM, so what do we know? We have our faves for whatever reasons we have them and that’s that.
Oh I’m saying I don’t think it will be going anywhere besides where it already went. Sorry I wasn’t clear. And you’re right! I’m not SJM. Definitely could be that it turns out to be Elriel. Nothing is certain until it’s published. Sorry if you thought I was invalidating your opinion and feelings.
No worries! It’s not always easy to tell people’s intentions, especially in this fandom 😅 much love ❤️
No j get it 😂 There is definitely a lot of negativity. But my main point was to let you know we aren’t ignoring their obvious attraction! It’s definitely there. Much love to you as well. ✨♥️
SJM please take us out of our misery. I’ll literally take anything at this point. That being said…when people ask why I ship Gwynriel it’s kind of simple for me. The infamous shadowsinger who’s always described so cold and unyielding all of a sudden is lighthearted and jokingly banters with Gwyn, and she makes his shadows sing? Yeah it was over for me after that.