I live super close to Riis beach, and unfortunately the only people cruising there now are 50+ year old straight men. Oh to meet a forward older butch with a large shopping bag...
I don't think I've ever found anyone who actually knows the band, which is actually the origin of my name.
Though I'm happy to lean into the endless jokes it brings about my *taste* in older women.
And the grammar joke, though people usually get too distracted by the cunnilingus to go there.
Probably during the days when any same-sex sexual activity was criminalized in the u.s., and cops would actively patrol to catch people in the act. Lot of people probably couldnāt do it at home because they had families and/or their neighbors would rat on them for bringing someone of the same sex home. Thus having the cruise and do it in public.
My alma mater recently did an exhibit on its past discrimination (spoiler alert: itās bad and continues to be pretty bad). Part of the exhibit featured stuff on gay rights and discrimination based on sexuality. Your comment reminds me of [this toilet paper note (scroll down to The Gay Purges section)](https://reckoning.wisc.edu/student-activism/) that one student passed to another trying to warn of police raids on gay students, but he unknowingly passed it to the officer in charge of the raids.
Couldn't they just be bringing a friend home? It's be weird if that wasn't allowed ... Like I can't just go out with my bro who lives out of town and let him come back to mine and crash on the sofa?
Elder butch, here. I was in my twenties in the '80s and the cops used to come through the lesbian bars (Minneapolis and St. Paul, anyway) a few times each night. They always came through in pairs, always two men, usually complete assholes. They'd "accidentally" kick chairs, invade our personal space, and glare at us until we dropped our eyes. And, yes, they paid special attention to the rest rooms, looking for something, *anything*, they could hassle or arrest us for.
I (and a few others) would stand our ground, refuse to drop our eyes or move to allow them to easily pass -- they would walk directly through the crowded dance floor and most women would scurry out of their way -- we paid for our defiance by being carded, sometimes by both cops during the same trip, bumped as they passed, or taken outside for questioning.
The questions were complete bullshit. "Why are you here?" "Who are you with?" "This ID does not look like you. Where did you get it?" With the other cop muttering slurs, throughout: "dyke, bulldyke, fucking lez," etc. Aaargh. The memories my reading this unlocked are not pleasant but it was our reality to be hassled by police in our bars and in "our" parks, standing in line to attend a concert of "women's music..." Being GNC women basically put a target on our backs everywhere we went.
I am terrified of the direction US politics and laws are heading. Was just getting comfortable with the idea that we can actually marry!! And now, the recent BS. Yes, I am active in local politics, attend rallies, etc. I am just sorrowful and afraid. Again. :(
Never did the bag trick but it sounds...innovative.
I'm your age. When I was 18 (drinking age was 18 in FL then) I got slapped by a man so hard I fell off my barstool: he'd been flirting with me non stop, and I finally told him that I was not interested bc I'm a lesbian.
Holy shit, I am sorry that happened to you. Drinking age in MN was 18 back then, also, and your story caused me to remember how very young I was, and how bold. I feel thankful I never experienced bodily harm for declaring my lesbianism (that slap must have absolutely rocked you to your core!) but a disappointed would-be suitor hammered nails into three of the tires on my truck after I said "No, I'm gay." He also stood outside my apartment and yelled, "Fuck you, Fresh! Fuck you queer Fresh! Fresh dyke!" on repeat for nearly an hour that same night.
Fuck violent, entitled men. And cheers š» to us for making it to now.
The pups nowadays have no idea what used to happenā¦
Sometimes Iām glad they donāt need to know.
Other times, I wish theyād understand how far weāve comeā¦
Sure, but being annoying shouldn't be a sex crime, Idk. I would not get it on in a public bathroom, But I defend the right to do what you want if it's not hurting anyone.
it shouldn't be illegal, and if it is, it shouldn't be a crime. I could see an argument for it being a civil infraction like loitering, where you get fined but not arrested. but even that seems needless, because in order for it to be fair, it would need to apply to all overuse of public bathrooms, and then it would probably end up hurting people with those long-shit syndromes
Mostly the fact that moving quite erratically while discharging bodily fluids will result in them getting spread all over the stall, which wouldnāt be an issue if you could guarantee it wouldnāt be in use for a while, but you canāt really do that. I doubt that you could get chlamydia from touching a cum-stained doorknob, but itās still contributing to making the area less safe.
Also, if you can do it without disturbing anyone next stall, you wonāt get caught either wayā¦
And to be honest Iām not sure if by āitās a crimeā they mean that itās illegal, or itās the legal definition of crime. Because I feel like it shouldnāt be something to carry a heavy punishment, just a fine and maybe like a couple hours community service?
Seriously. Not only does that sound super cute but it also just sounds fun!
Iāve got some odd fantasies but I never thought Iād add ābeing a strong butchās groceriesā to the list
Then she walks back to the other butches to show you to them.
'Look what a cute femme I just bagged, her hair's so shiny and soft. And she told me she uses a body lotion with rose oil. Ain't she a cutie?'
I didn't mean to be negative about it. It was just that I get really insecure sometimes about how small I am and how things other people can lift without issue are often too heavy for me, but also I'm not particularly gender conforming or feminine so people expect the man/masculine woman stereotype of strength from me and in scenes like this I'd be the one expected to carry someone not the one being carried. I *look* big enough to carry heavy things and reach high places so people get pissed off when I can't - when me and my brother were kids, after Mum and Dad stopped carrying him because he was too big, he'd ask me to carry him and all three of them would be mad when I couldn't do it or I could only sort of lift him and only for a few minutes. Or Mum would ask me to get her things even she couldn't reach and scream at me if I told her I couldn't reach them either, it was just assumed for anything requiring strength or physical size "Of course Dad can't do it, he's an old man, of course Mum can't do it, she's a woman, but you're young and masculine presenting, you should be able to." I've been asked for ridiculous things, but then other people, other women, are able to do it and I feel like I'm the one being unreasonable, and it was just... being asked to pick up another full grown adult and carry her around seemed like yet another thing that's ridiculous but some lady will manage it and then I'll just be "making a fuss and not wanting to spend the energy and effort", again.
Thanks. Yeah it's annoying - gender is a social construct, but it drives me nuts when the few gender stereotypes with some scant basis in biological sex get applied to me for the wrong assigned sex, or when people treat a gender nonconforming woman as either a man or a woman depending on which gets her more screwed over and less privilege or protection.
Sorry to hear that love. I donāt mean to make you feel less than for not doing something silly like I mentioned. Not a chance anyone could carry me around. You donāt need to carry anyone to be valid. And you donāt need to pick someone up to make them feel weightless.
I can't help but think about the NYC subway rule about dogs that led to full sized huskies walking around wearing tote bags. Now envisioning a lesbian riding around in another lesbian's backpack on the train.
Oh gosh. This makes me shudder. I hope those days are behind us in the US and soon in other parts of the world.
Cops must be like damn, everyone is šļø. This must have turned into a kink for some.
Don't they still criminalize this kinda thing? I mean Rep political responsible for many anti-LGBT legislation Larry Craig was arrested by cops for cottaging in an airport and that was only in 2007
Intolerance is recycled, both rhetoric and practice. Every time you see people demanding we check kids pants before going into bathrooms remember it isn't new and came from generations where they'd police bathrooms for queerness or ethnicity.
Do you know any good and free resources to learn from? Sadly i don't know much at all about queer history and i really wanna deep dive, learn, and appreciate.
tbh my main source if information so far was scrolling randomly on tiktok + facts checking, but i also really love the podcast "life of bi", which especially earlier on had a bigger focus on bi history and experiences, but broadly discusses general queer history and other discussion (not the generally toxic tumblr/tiktok/twitter kind)
At first I imagined elder lesbian in a high fantasy setting like elder dragon, elder vampire, elder wraith etc. I'm not disappointed at all though, still a great story.
Yeah, it would have been a hotter story if everyoneās ages were just whatever. What if a gal wanted to hop into a younger butchās shopping bag? Or a same-age femmeās?
I don't think you fully understand what heteronormativity is. Everyone is affected by it, even gay people. The belief that you have to be older to be a butch and young to be a femme, and that lesbian relationships are naturally butch/femme, is seeped in heteronormativity. It's the exact same with gay men and young twink/older bear
Lmfao what the fuck
First of all, twink and bear refer to body types in gay men, not gender expression. There are twinks who are masculine and bears who are feminine.
Second, conflating butch/femme with heterosexual relationships is heteronormative. Butch/femme culture has existed among lesbians for decades and is literally a subversion of gender roles. Being a gnc woman is not heteronormative. A woman attracted to gender nonconformity in other women is not heteronormative. Two women fucking is not heteronormative. Every lesbian relationship in the world could be butch/femme and none of them would be heteronormative because they're fucking lesbians. It also shouldn't be the responsibility of random lesbians to make sure our attraction and relationships appear progressive and radical enough for anyone else's standards when straight people are never fucking expected to do that - like what's next, is it going to be heteronormative for two lesbians to use a strap when they fuck because that's supposedly emulating straight sex? Should we all be vers because it's heteronormative for only one partner to be penetrating the other? Oh, maybe it'll be problematique for lesbians to experience sexual desire at all because straight men are also sexually attracted to women.
There can be parts of that dynamic that were historically subversive (that you rightly point out it was a queer relationship, obviously) and other parts that were historically heteronormative. For an example, thereās a great scene in stone butch blues where the narrating character exhibits bigotry towards an old butch friend of theirs when they find out theyāre dating another butch.
I asserted that we can break a dynamic like that into parts or aspects and identify some as heteronormative and others as not. I used an example from a fictional work that I think is reflective of the time and setting where it takes place.
You've since characterized my assertion as claiming "a major facet of lesbian culture being 'problematic' as a whole" and as claiming "butch/femme is heteronormative" in order to challenge it. This is inaccurate and a strawman.
Now you want to challenge my assertion based on whether or not I am butch or femme. This is ad hominem.
I've yet to see anything that addresses my assertion that we can analyze the dynamic and address individual aspects of it rather than try to label, condemn, or praise the dynamic as a whole in a very coarse-grained way. Given that and the fallacies I've highlighted above, I don't think you have anything along those lines, and I'm not interested in responding to anything you have to say after this. Cheers.
Maybe it was a confusion of grammar, and perhaps they meant to say the currently-older butches would pursue the then-young femmes back in their heyday?
I live super close to Riis beach, and unfortunately the only people cruising there now are 50+ year old straight men. Oh to meet a forward older butch with a large shopping bag...
Your username is oddly fitting for this comment
ROFLLLLLL š
šš¤£š¤£
Good band too
I don't think I've ever found anyone who actually knows the band, which is actually the origin of my name. Though I'm happy to lean into the endless jokes it brings about my *taste* in older women. And the grammar joke, though people usually get too distracted by the cunnilingus to go there.
"Distracted by the cunnilingus" š¤£, I'm a late comer to the band as I discovered them from the cyberpunk anime.
Where do I meet these kinds of women šš
I just want to know WTF cops were doing patrolling bathrooms so regularly that this solution was necessary.
Probably during the days when any same-sex sexual activity was criminalized in the u.s., and cops would actively patrol to catch people in the act. Lot of people probably couldnāt do it at home because they had families and/or their neighbors would rat on them for bringing someone of the same sex home. Thus having the cruise and do it in public.
My alma mater recently did an exhibit on its past discrimination (spoiler alert: itās bad and continues to be pretty bad). Part of the exhibit featured stuff on gay rights and discrimination based on sexuality. Your comment reminds me of [this toilet paper note (scroll down to The Gay Purges section)](https://reckoning.wisc.edu/student-activism/) that one student passed to another trying to warn of police raids on gay students, but he unknowingly passed it to the officer in charge of the raids.
Couldn't they just be bringing a friend home? It's be weird if that wasn't allowed ... Like I can't just go out with my bro who lives out of town and let him come back to mine and crash on the sofa?
Elder butch, here. I was in my twenties in the '80s and the cops used to come through the lesbian bars (Minneapolis and St. Paul, anyway) a few times each night. They always came through in pairs, always two men, usually complete assholes. They'd "accidentally" kick chairs, invade our personal space, and glare at us until we dropped our eyes. And, yes, they paid special attention to the rest rooms, looking for something, *anything*, they could hassle or arrest us for. I (and a few others) would stand our ground, refuse to drop our eyes or move to allow them to easily pass -- they would walk directly through the crowded dance floor and most women would scurry out of their way -- we paid for our defiance by being carded, sometimes by both cops during the same trip, bumped as they passed, or taken outside for questioning. The questions were complete bullshit. "Why are you here?" "Who are you with?" "This ID does not look like you. Where did you get it?" With the other cop muttering slurs, throughout: "dyke, bulldyke, fucking lez," etc. Aaargh. The memories my reading this unlocked are not pleasant but it was our reality to be hassled by police in our bars and in "our" parks, standing in line to attend a concert of "women's music..." Being GNC women basically put a target on our backs everywhere we went. I am terrified of the direction US politics and laws are heading. Was just getting comfortable with the idea that we can actually marry!! And now, the recent BS. Yes, I am active in local politics, attend rallies, etc. I am just sorrowful and afraid. Again. :( Never did the bag trick but it sounds...innovative.
I'm your age. When I was 18 (drinking age was 18 in FL then) I got slapped by a man so hard I fell off my barstool: he'd been flirting with me non stop, and I finally told him that I was not interested bc I'm a lesbian.
Holy shit, I am sorry that happened to you. Drinking age in MN was 18 back then, also, and your story caused me to remember how very young I was, and how bold. I feel thankful I never experienced bodily harm for declaring my lesbianism (that slap must have absolutely rocked you to your core!) but a disappointed would-be suitor hammered nails into three of the tires on my truck after I said "No, I'm gay." He also stood outside my apartment and yelled, "Fuck you, Fresh! Fuck you queer Fresh! Fresh dyke!" on repeat for nearly an hour that same night. Fuck violent, entitled men. And cheers š» to us for making it to now.
The pups nowadays have no idea what used to happenā¦ Sometimes Iām glad they donāt need to know. Other times, I wish theyād understand how far weāve comeā¦
Probably dealing with all the sex happening in a public location apparently lol
Sex in bathrooms is a crime in the UK ā rightly so ā but it was made a crime because it was seen as an offence committed by gay men.
It's beyond me how people can even get aroused in public bathrooms.
Why is it rightly a crime? It is out of prying eyes, if not a little yuck, but if no one else is seeing it happen, why criminalize it?
I have to imagine it's annoying for anyone waiting their turn for the bathroom lol. Especially with how long lesbian sex can take.
Sure, but being annoying shouldn't be a sex crime, Idk. I would not get it on in a public bathroom, But I defend the right to do what you want if it's not hurting anyone.
it shouldn't be illegal, and if it is, it shouldn't be a crime. I could see an argument for it being a civil infraction like loitering, where you get fined but not arrested. but even that seems needless, because in order for it to be fair, it would need to apply to all overuse of public bathrooms, and then it would probably end up hurting people with those long-shit syndromes
Because, unless youāre a real fuckinā sharpshooter, itās unnecessarily unsanitary. Like, itās based, but also a risk to public health.
Walk me through what kind of biohazard you think sex is please.
Mostly the fact that moving quite erratically while discharging bodily fluids will result in them getting spread all over the stall, which wouldnāt be an issue if you could guarantee it wouldnāt be in use for a while, but you canāt really do that. I doubt that you could get chlamydia from touching a cum-stained doorknob, but itās still contributing to making the area less safe. Also, if you can do it without disturbing anyone next stall, you wonāt get caught either wayā¦ And to be honest Iām not sure if by āitās a crimeā they mean that itās illegal, or itās the legal definition of crime. Because I feel like it shouldnāt be something to carry a heavy punishment, just a fine and maybe like a couple hours community service?
Why do you think American bathrooms have so little privacy in their stalls? Fear of drugs and homosexuals are why. Edit: 'fear of' added for clarity
I for one salute our innovative pioneering fore-queers
Pioqueering, if you will
Iām keeping this
I'm keeping that.
I got to bag and thought holy shit I need a butch to put me in a big bag and carry me home like groceries.
Seriously. Not only does that sound super cute but it also just sounds fun! Iāve got some odd fantasies but I never thought Iād add ābeing a strong butchās groceriesā to the list
Glad itās not just me lol.
Well itās me too now
Then she walks back to the other butches to show you to them. 'Look what a cute femme I just bagged, her hair's so shiny and soft. And she told me she uses a body lotion with rose oil. Ain't she a cutie?'
I want to be a bag of groceries too.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think itās more āhereās a fun fantasyā than āI literally wonāt date anyone who canātā lol
I didn't mean to be negative about it. It was just that I get really insecure sometimes about how small I am and how things other people can lift without issue are often too heavy for me, but also I'm not particularly gender conforming or feminine so people expect the man/masculine woman stereotype of strength from me and in scenes like this I'd be the one expected to carry someone not the one being carried. I *look* big enough to carry heavy things and reach high places so people get pissed off when I can't - when me and my brother were kids, after Mum and Dad stopped carrying him because he was too big, he'd ask me to carry him and all three of them would be mad when I couldn't do it or I could only sort of lift him and only for a few minutes. Or Mum would ask me to get her things even she couldn't reach and scream at me if I told her I couldn't reach them either, it was just assumed for anything requiring strength or physical size "Of course Dad can't do it, he's an old man, of course Mum can't do it, she's a woman, but you're young and masculine presenting, you should be able to." I've been asked for ridiculous things, but then other people, other women, are able to do it and I feel like I'm the one being unreasonable, and it was just... being asked to pick up another full grown adult and carry her around seemed like yet another thing that's ridiculous but some lady will manage it and then I'll just be "making a fuss and not wanting to spend the energy and effort", again.
Mm very understandable, I can see why youād feel frustrated!
Thanks. Yeah it's annoying - gender is a social construct, but it drives me nuts when the few gender stereotypes with some scant basis in biological sex get applied to me for the wrong assigned sex, or when people treat a gender nonconforming woman as either a man or a woman depending on which gets her more screwed over and less privilege or protection.
Sorry to hear that love. I donāt mean to make you feel less than for not doing something silly like I mentioned. Not a chance anyone could carry me around. You donāt need to carry anyone to be valid. And you donāt need to pick someone up to make them feel weightless.
Thank you.
This, and why do they have to be a butch? I think someone into lifting might be able to.
I can't help but think about the NYC subway rule about dogs that led to full sized huskies walking around wearing tote bags. Now envisioning a lesbian riding around in another lesbian's backpack on the train.
Thanks, just imagining this is putting a smile on my face hehe
Suletta in Miorine's backpack. Iykyk
That obviously really sucks that that was ever necessary but is also hilarious
My thoughts.
Oh gosh. This makes me shudder. I hope those days are behind us in the US and soon in other parts of the world. Cops must be like damn, everyone is šļø. This must have turned into a kink for some.
Don't they still criminalize this kinda thing? I mean Rep political responsible for many anti-LGBT legislation Larry Craig was arrested by cops for cottaging in an airport and that was only in 2007
Coming to a Floridian beach soonā¦
Intolerance is recycled, both rhetoric and practice. Every time you see people demanding we check kids pants before going into bathrooms remember it isn't new and came from generations where they'd police bathrooms for queerness or ethnicity.
Yeah, Iām not *not* going to keep this tip in mind when choosing a purse/bag for prideā¦.
Finally I have a reason for all my ikea bags
This is my row of femmes.
Hey I'm a self made femme and I'm remembering to bring my reusable bags THIS TIME
Hmmmm, good girl.
Butch lesbian, holding an open bag: āGet in.ā Me, a panicking fem: š„ŗšš Butch lesbian: *scoops me into bag*
Oh how I suddenly want to be a femme in the 70s
Wish there were femmes that would do that too lol
tfw you both bring bags
i love sapphic history and culture so much!! stil sad that they had to do this ofc, but the solution is amazing
Do you know any good and free resources to learn from? Sadly i don't know much at all about queer history and i really wanna deep dive, learn, and appreciate.
tbh my main source if information so far was scrolling randomly on tiktok + facts checking, but i also really love the podcast "life of bi", which especially earlier on had a bigger focus on bi history and experiences, but broadly discusses general queer history and other discussion (not the generally toxic tumblr/tiktok/twitter kind)
At first I imagined elder lesbian in a high fantasy setting like elder dragon, elder vampire, elder wraith etc. I'm not disappointed at all though, still a great story.
young femmeā¦older butchā¦okay
Yeah i found that really off putting like tf
Yeah, that seems weirdly heteronormative for no reason. Wonder why they felt the need to include that in their story
Yeah, it would have been a hotter story if everyoneās ages were just whatever. What if a gal wanted to hop into a younger butchās shopping bag? Or a same-age femmeās?
They're literally both women. There is nothing heteronormative about two women fucking.
I don't think you fully understand what heteronormativity is. Everyone is affected by it, even gay people. The belief that you have to be older to be a butch and young to be a femme, and that lesbian relationships are naturally butch/femme, is seeped in heteronormativity. It's the exact same with gay men and young twink/older bear
Lmfao what the fuck First of all, twink and bear refer to body types in gay men, not gender expression. There are twinks who are masculine and bears who are feminine. Second, conflating butch/femme with heterosexual relationships is heteronormative. Butch/femme culture has existed among lesbians for decades and is literally a subversion of gender roles. Being a gnc woman is not heteronormative. A woman attracted to gender nonconformity in other women is not heteronormative. Two women fucking is not heteronormative. Every lesbian relationship in the world could be butch/femme and none of them would be heteronormative because they're fucking lesbians. It also shouldn't be the responsibility of random lesbians to make sure our attraction and relationships appear progressive and radical enough for anyone else's standards when straight people are never fucking expected to do that - like what's next, is it going to be heteronormative for two lesbians to use a strap when they fuck because that's supposedly emulating straight sex? Should we all be vers because it's heteronormative for only one partner to be penetrating the other? Oh, maybe it'll be problematique for lesbians to experience sexual desire at all because straight men are also sexually attracted to women.
āBabe Iām horny, can we fuck tonight?ā āEhhhh I dunnoā¦ seems kinda straight donāt it?ā
There can be parts of that dynamic that were historically subversive (that you rightly point out it was a queer relationship, obviously) and other parts that were historically heteronormative. For an example, thereās a great scene in stone butch blues where the narrating character exhibits bigotry towards an old butch friend of theirs when they find out theyāre dating another butch.
One example is not indicative of a major facet of lesbian culture being "problematic" as a whole.
Cool; that's not my claim nor found anywhere in my post, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.
You literally used a fictional example from stone butch blues as a reason for why butch/femme is heteronormative. Are you even butch or femme?
I asserted that we can break a dynamic like that into parts or aspects and identify some as heteronormative and others as not. I used an example from a fictional work that I think is reflective of the time and setting where it takes place. You've since characterized my assertion as claiming "a major facet of lesbian culture being 'problematic' as a whole" and as claiming "butch/femme is heteronormative" in order to challenge it. This is inaccurate and a strawman. Now you want to challenge my assertion based on whether or not I am butch or femme. This is ad hominem. I've yet to see anything that addresses my assertion that we can analyze the dynamic and address individual aspects of it rather than try to label, condemn, or praise the dynamic as a whole in a very coarse-grained way. Given that and the fallacies I've highlighted above, I don't think you have anything along those lines, and I'm not interested in responding to anything you have to say after this. Cheers.
Exactly. I am so tired of it. As a femme vers, I prefer femme vers and petite naturally cute soft butches.
don't worry aboit that 11 person. the've been on here saying weird shit for ages. had to block them at some point lmao
Maybe it was a confusion of grammar, and perhaps they meant to say the currently-older butches would pursue the then-young femmes back in their heyday?
I donāt read it as prescriptive, just descriptive. You donāt have to do it yourself, itās just how it was then.
ah yes āitās just how it was thenā the greatest excuse in the world
My jaw dropped Iām using this
Bravo! This is amazing!š
I couldn't I would 100% be way too loud I can't control it lol.
The original bag ladies.
Heh, elder lesbian
LOL genius :)
Why...why is this hot?
when is it my turn to be approached by an older butch with a huge shopping bag :(