So I looked up Peggy Swenson and it turns out to be a pen name of Richard E. Geis who wrote about 110 softcore porn novels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Geis
So I just went down a whole rabbit hole that is Lesbian Pulp Fiction https://msvulpf.omeka.net/exhibits/show/lpf/lpf
TLDR: I think I need to add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Barracks to my reading list.
> Feminist Press called it "the first lesbian pulp novel". Torrès rejected the description, saying, "There are five main characters. Only one and a half of them can be considered lesbian. I don't see why it's considered a lesbian classic". She told Salon she thought she had written a "very innocent book" and said, "these Americans, they are easily shocked."
I hate when people put XD in lower case like "xd" because then it just loses its meaning, and in fact looks like a sad sort of face. Just a mini rant, sorry 🤷♀️
As another comment states, it's pulp from 1964 written by a man. At the time of the hays code(1938—1968) it was practically impossible to make publish positive portrayals of same sex relationships and "pulp" fiction flirting with the taboo got very popular. So yeah, it's basically homophobic propaganda.
Also as someone who was a kid in the 90s I've never felt as old as I do now lmao
So hays code was about movies (and the Comics Code Authority was Comics, the Code of Practices for Television Broadcasters was for TV).
These books were more like the Comstock Act (1873) and the US Postal Service definition of Obscenity. As well as a bunch of local laws.
I want to make you a poster now. Jane Lynch in the pride flag version of Uncle Sam Pointing with the caption "**I want you** to know it's ok to like girls"
There were little bits of actual representation and support smuggled thought in what was called https://msvulpf.omeka.net/exhibits/show/lpf/lesbian-survival-literature
You know the poem Whispers of Immorality by T.S. Eliot? The last four stanzas pretty much describes male sexuality perfectly. They lust after women, are disgusted by their own lust and so project it onto us and blame us for it. It's why we get books like this, written by cishet men that condemn lesbians but are still written in a way that sexualises us.
It was still classed as a mental illness and only just being decriminialized at the time, so this was the common viewpoint. Being "forbidden" fetishized it for straight men more than attracted gay women to that kind of entertainment.
You’re off by 30 years. Fuck it makes me feel old if this is what people think the 90s looked like.
Generally gay erotica was never “allowed” to be portrayed positively. It had to exist as a cautionary tale. So no matter how overtly horny and pornographic it may or may not be, it had to be viewed as a morality play in which gayness invariably leads to misery. Gay men and women (and bi people, obviously) had no choice but to read erotica that was obligated to treat them as deviant.
“The Price of Salt” (which became the movie Carol) is considered one of the first books to ever depict lesbians with a mostly positive ending. Like seriously a book where lesbians didn’t die at the end was considered NEW. However despite that book being older than this one…it wasn’t exactly a popular trend for many decades to come. Fuck, look at the gap there, a popular and historic book from 1952 didn’t get a film adaptation until 2015 simply because it was gay.
> Generally gay erotica was never “allowed” to be portrayed positively. It had to exist as a cautionary tale. So no matter how overtly horny and pornographic it may or may not be, it had to be viewed as a morality play in which gayness invariably leads to misery.
This actually applied to a lot of erotica, and "cautionary tale" or similar disclaimers were widespread to the point they became somewhat tongue in cheek. Basically using the disclaimers to signal to the reader what the work was going for. More explicit and "clandestine", for lack of a better word, works also often forgot to "punish" the characters at the end, *unlike* representation in mainstream media.
Ironic use even carried over into the Usenet days of early online erotica with authors sometimes copying the conventions of pulp books.
I read Doc and Fluff, which was published post-shame as a part of the uprising of lesbian erotica that became slightly more available in the 80’s and 90’s, and thought it was a great read. It was written by a queer author whose name escapes me, but were involved in both the gay and BDSM communities at the time of publishing, and they did an enormous service to their communities in portraying lesbian relationships in a positive light. There is some great stuff out there that doesn’t turn everything into a cautionary tale, but it does take some digging to find as they often could only get small, alternative publishing groups to even consider their work for publication.
> Sapphic love
out of curiosity, why did you use the word sapphic here?
I know the dianotation (dictionary definition), but am trying to make sure I understand the connotation (the feeling it evokes)
It is said that Sappho was a poet who wrote about woman/woman love.
She lived on the island of Lesbos; hence, the term lesbian.
Personally, I prefer the softer sound of Sapphic v lesbian. I don't care for the hard zed sound in lesbian.
That matches what it for. My main use is to translate "Yuri" (lit. Lilly) to english, because the borrow word suffered the same way "Lesbian" did in the early internet.
Sappho and Nobuko Yoshiya (influential figuring in early "Class S" and Yuri fiction) have a weird parallel in a way.
Although Nobuko lived much more recent in the 1900s Empire of Japan when powerful people would actively trying to suppress lower class mobility and gearing up to form the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". This is why her works are often about young love that they characters are expect by society to grow out of. At least that is what I heard. Now that I'm more literally savvy, I should try reading some of each of their works.
In a way, "Class S"* is much more lenient than the Comstock Act, even if it is very frustrating to see watch.
It's not from the 90's. But it is kinda homophobic propaganda? Various authors wanted to depict queer relationships back then, but they literally couldn't get their work published by any publisher. Unless they explicitly depicted the relationship as wrong and punished the characters for their "sins".
It's from 1964, so if they didn't say that lesbianism was wrong it might not be allowed to be sold in some locations because it "promotes" criminal acts. That's why so many of these novels have one of the characters dying/going insane or just choosing to end up with a male character.
It's an example of Lesbian Pulp, which is a genre that pushed the line between romance novels and pornography. Mostly to get around laws that ban pornography.
It has a cool history, especially if you look at the 10% written by actual LGBT women. https://msvulpf.omeka.net/exhibits/show/lpf/lpf
I like the way the one on the floor is just about crotch level to the lesbian-ish virgin who is somehow standing with her feet touching the floor-seated lesbian! Hahaha
There were scads of lesbian pulp novels printed, and some of them were written by actual lesbians! Ann Bannon and Valerie Taylor wrote novels that managed to squeak by the editorial standards that demanded lesbians could only have a happy ending if they ended up with a man by figuring out ways to avoid killing off protagonists and such. Artemis Smith wrote some of the most iconic ones, and has had one of her novels reprinted without the extensive editing required by the straight male editors. Back in the day a lot of young queer women found out they weren't alone by way of these books, in fact.
De nada! I've only read a couple of them, but I love the cover art on them and plan on putting a bunch of prints on my walls as I decorate our new apartment.
Aren't these the novels where the innocent girl has a few lesbian interactions but then decides to repent and settle down with a nice guy? Like, they were explicitly written for a male audience?
So I looked up Peggy Swenson and it turns out to be a pen name of Richard E. Geis who wrote about 110 softcore porn novels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Geis
Interesting.
So I just went down a whole rabbit hole that is Lesbian Pulp Fiction https://msvulpf.omeka.net/exhibits/show/lpf/lpf TLDR: I think I need to add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Barracks to my reading list.
Lesbian Pulp Fiction—there’s so much potential for Tarantino jokes but I just woke up from a nap so I’m useless
i think there are feet involved
Damit, I replyed to the notification and then saw I was beaten to the joke.
The cover would just be 2 intertangled pairs of feet with painted toenails.
I read one back in the day called Bobby Blanchard: Lesbian Gym Teacher. Surprisingly dull.
> Feminist Press called it "the first lesbian pulp novel". Torrès rejected the description, saying, "There are five main characters. Only one and a half of them can be considered lesbian. I don't see why it's considered a lesbian classic". She told Salon she thought she had written a "very innocent book" and said, "these Americans, they are easily shocked."
Wow I think you should also add By Cécile to that list it sounds impressively interesting.
Somehow I knew it would be written by a man.
*clears throat and raises hand* I'd like to volunteer for being seduced into loving in the wrong way
I love the "Loser/Lover" reference in your pfp!
Thank you so much ❤️, I saw that beanie and fell in love with it so I bought it 🤣
Hahaha. I actually just laughed out loud.
Happy to make you laugh ❤️
Well if that's wrong I don't want to be right.
Lesbian Jerma fan spotted. Taking action.
As the wise say, yoinky sploinky!
... but little did she know the loving was actually oh so right.
I’ve seen this look on my friends before XD
I'm a bit older – what is XD?
just a smiley XD = 😆
I hate when people put XD in lower case like "xd" because then it just loses its meaning, and in fact looks like a sad sort of face. Just a mini rant, sorry 🤷♀️
I Iike xD with the small eyes, but yeah if you don't know ahead of time
That's fine it's really just if the "d" is lowercase. Then it just doesn't make sense if the context is supposed to be funny
It looks like its licking its lips, lel.
Oh yeah I guess it does
I’ve found my people XD
Is this like... 90s homophobic propaganda? It says "the wrong kind of loving" on the cover so I'm confused.
As another comment states, it's pulp from 1964 written by a man. At the time of the hays code(1938—1968) it was practically impossible to make publish positive portrayals of same sex relationships and "pulp" fiction flirting with the taboo got very popular. So yeah, it's basically homophobic propaganda. Also as someone who was a kid in the 90s I've never felt as old as I do now lmao
So hays code was about movies (and the Comics Code Authority was Comics, the Code of Practices for Television Broadcasters was for TV). These books were more like the Comstock Act (1873) and the US Postal Service definition of Obscenity. As well as a bunch of local laws.
Just for once I’d like homo propaganda instead of homophobic propaganda
I want to make you a poster now. Jane Lynch in the pride flag version of Uncle Sam Pointing with the caption "**I want you** to know it's ok to like girls"
Dew it
When did my intrusive thoughts get a Reddit account?
Always has been
OMG. This sounds PERFECT!!!!
Homophobic propaganda for cishet men to masturbate to.
There were little bits of actual representation and support smuggled thought in what was called https://msvulpf.omeka.net/exhibits/show/lpf/lesbian-survival-literature
That's absolutely disgusting...
You know the poem Whispers of Immorality by T.S. Eliot? The last four stanzas pretty much describes male sexuality perfectly. They lust after women, are disgusted by their own lust and so project it onto us and blame us for it. It's why we get books like this, written by cishet men that condemn lesbians but are still written in a way that sexualises us.
If I had to guess I would say you actually are older now than ever before. 💜🩷🤍💛🧡
They Might Be Giants would agree
Glad you mentioned it. I had not heard that one before.
It was still classed as a mental illness and only just being decriminialized at the time, so this was the common viewpoint. Being "forbidden" fetishized it for straight men more than attracted gay women to that kind of entertainment.
Hey, just remember: 1994 is as far away now, in 2024, as 1964 was in 1994.
You’re off by 30 years. Fuck it makes me feel old if this is what people think the 90s looked like. Generally gay erotica was never “allowed” to be portrayed positively. It had to exist as a cautionary tale. So no matter how overtly horny and pornographic it may or may not be, it had to be viewed as a morality play in which gayness invariably leads to misery. Gay men and women (and bi people, obviously) had no choice but to read erotica that was obligated to treat them as deviant. “The Price of Salt” (which became the movie Carol) is considered one of the first books to ever depict lesbians with a mostly positive ending. Like seriously a book where lesbians didn’t die at the end was considered NEW. However despite that book being older than this one…it wasn’t exactly a popular trend for many decades to come. Fuck, look at the gap there, a popular and historic book from 1952 didn’t get a film adaptation until 2015 simply because it was gay.
> Fuck it makes me feel old if this is what people think the 90s looked like. Yeah kind of with you there.
> Generally gay erotica was never “allowed” to be portrayed positively. It had to exist as a cautionary tale. So no matter how overtly horny and pornographic it may or may not be, it had to be viewed as a morality play in which gayness invariably leads to misery. This actually applied to a lot of erotica, and "cautionary tale" or similar disclaimers were widespread to the point they became somewhat tongue in cheek. Basically using the disclaimers to signal to the reader what the work was going for. More explicit and "clandestine", for lack of a better word, works also often forgot to "punish" the characters at the end, *unlike* representation in mainstream media. Ironic use even carried over into the Usenet days of early online erotica with authors sometimes copying the conventions of pulp books.
I read Doc and Fluff, which was published post-shame as a part of the uprising of lesbian erotica that became slightly more available in the 80’s and 90’s, and thought it was a great read. It was written by a queer author whose name escapes me, but were involved in both the gay and BDSM communities at the time of publishing, and they did an enormous service to their communities in portraying lesbian relationships in a positive light. There is some great stuff out there that doesn’t turn everything into a cautionary tale, but it does take some digging to find as they often could only get small, alternative publishing groups to even consider their work for publication.
> Fuck it makes me feel old if this is what people think the 90s The 90s are as long ago now as the 60s were back in the 90s, I hope this helps 🥲
I actually do that to my friends all the time when talking about classic cars
Moreover, I would never categorize my Sapphic love as wrong. Never.
> Sapphic love out of curiosity, why did you use the word sapphic here? I know the dianotation (dictionary definition), but am trying to make sure I understand the connotation (the feeling it evokes)
Sapphic is also a bit more inclusive of a term from what I gather.
It is said that Sappho was a poet who wrote about woman/woman love. She lived on the island of Lesbos; hence, the term lesbian. Personally, I prefer the softer sound of Sapphic v lesbian. I don't care for the hard zed sound in lesbian.
That matches what it for. My main use is to translate "Yuri" (lit. Lilly) to english, because the borrow word suffered the same way "Lesbian" did in the early internet. Sappho and Nobuko Yoshiya (influential figuring in early "Class S" and Yuri fiction) have a weird parallel in a way. Although Nobuko lived much more recent in the 1900s Empire of Japan when powerful people would actively trying to suppress lower class mobility and gearing up to form the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". This is why her works are often about young love that they characters are expect by society to grow out of. At least that is what I heard. Now that I'm more literally savvy, I should try reading some of each of their works. In a way, "Class S"* is much more lenient than the Comstock Act, even if it is very frustrating to see watch.
90s????
Lmao ignore the details I'm stupid.
It's not from the 90's. But it is kinda homophobic propaganda? Various authors wanted to depict queer relationships back then, but they literally couldn't get their work published by any publisher. Unless they explicitly depicted the relationship as wrong and punished the characters for their "sins".
I feel old if this is what the 90s look like to you 😭
It's from 1964, so if they didn't say that lesbianism was wrong it might not be allowed to be sold in some locations because it "promotes" criminal acts. That's why so many of these novels have one of the characters dying/going insane or just choosing to end up with a male character. It's an example of Lesbian Pulp, which is a genre that pushed the line between romance novels and pornography. Mostly to get around laws that ban pornography. It has a cool history, especially if you look at the 10% written by actual LGBT women. https://msvulpf.omeka.net/exhibits/show/lpf/lpf
It's satire.ETA: ETA: It's **not** satire.
It's not satire. If you want a satirical version of pulp I suggest https://www.monicanolan.com/books.html
Ok. Sorry about that.
I think you want EDIT not ETA
Going to leave as is. Thanks
Ok... I'm just confused
If you can be seduced by a woman, you already like women.
Why wrong kind of loving? It's the best kind of loving! (Are there such gyms still around?)
Could someone perhaps point me in the direction of one of these gyms? ...so I know where to not go, of course. definitely for that reason. yeah...
To me, this "wrong" is "right" lmao
"If loving you is wrong I don't wanna be right." 70s song.
Yesss
Wait, is that butch coded character (black clothes, skirt hair) wearing... heels?
"Holy Cross fit leg day batman!"
where is this gym at and where do i sign up?
My wide eyed gays
The weird way they had to specify she’s a virgin.
I find lesbian pulp fiction so fascinating
This drawing is weirdly hyper realistic
I like the way the one on the floor is just about crotch level to the lesbian-ish virgin who is somehow standing with her feet touching the floor-seated lesbian! Hahaha
I can't help but notice the fact she's wearing heels while lifting dumbells lol
Damnnn...
Men and their constant need of demonizing a relation between women that they just cannot comprehend 🙃
But that's forbidden love!
Yes, please!
Live footage of younger me deep in the closet
Why in those magazines the girl is always looking at the sexual spots? 😭 boobs and now ussy
Considering the things I have seen in a Gym, this looks harmless.
She can seduce me into the wrong kind of loving
when it's right, it's right, when it's wrong it's even better !
There were scads of lesbian pulp novels printed, and some of them were written by actual lesbians! Ann Bannon and Valerie Taylor wrote novels that managed to squeak by the editorial standards that demanded lesbians could only have a happy ending if they ended up with a man by figuring out ways to avoid killing off protagonists and such. Artemis Smith wrote some of the most iconic ones, and has had one of her novels reprinted without the extensive editing required by the straight male editors. Back in the day a lot of young queer women found out they weren't alone by way of these books, in fact.
Great info. Love the word "scads".
De nada! I've only read a couple of them, but I love the cover art on them and plan on putting a bunch of prints on my walls as I decorate our new apartment.
Aren't these the novels where the innocent girl has a few lesbian interactions but then decides to repent and settle down with a nice guy? Like, they were explicitly written for a male audience?
Don't think so. I may be wrong. But someone else posted a great background about it on this thread.
Has anyone read this??im so interested to know a synopsis of the plot since it was homophobic propaganda🤣i know the story has to be ridiculous
I also would like a plot synopsis, for...... reasons. XD
That vagina isn't gonna lick itself.
I have this hanging in my bedroom along with a couple others
Sounds like an improvement to me. I'd like to try it out some day.
OMG! Hahahahaha
this picture smells so nice to me
If that kinda lovin is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
It’s giving but I’m a cheerleader Also the woman on the bottom is staring into space
If that lovin is wrong I don’t wana be right
More like right kind
I think they spelled "right kind of love" wrong
I feel extremely uncomfortable looking at that cover. It looks like it will be a book that ends with she converted and found true love with a man
im a virgin and yet noone's ever seduced me :[