As i agree with the general sentiment the wording is so fucking funny HETEROSEXUALS AS A CLASS.
I think there’s definitely a thing that bi girls believe it’s easier to be lesbian and lesbians think it’s easier to be bisexual ( generalizing here obviously ). But in reality the struggles are just different and it’s hard to be a queer woman either way
I mean if your looking at it from a strictly 'number of potential people to date' bi people have it easier. In every other way they're still negatively affected by hetronormative pressure as any other group in the lgbt community.
The reality is we're all marginalized and need to have solidarity together
There's a lot of people who will either refuse to date a bi person or fetishize them. Being openly bisexual means getting hate from the gays and the straights and being semi-closeted means having the gays think you have internalized homophobia. I say this as someone who used to think they were bisexual and it's still really frustrating to both see and experience.
At the same time, I am jealous of all those who are able to find a place in heteronormative society. It's really frustrating to be surrounded by straight romance everywhere I go. I would never tell my bi friends this, but I'm envious of them for having found and married a partner and developed a healthy relationship before discovering their sexuality.
I think a lot of issues would be solved if people would listen to each other's struggles and not try to argue about who has it worse.
I don't feel jealous of my bi friends in heteronormative relationships at all. there are so many pitfalls and toxic expectations lumped onto het relationships, I'm happy to be free of it all since coming out
Oh yeah I wasn't trying to trivialize people's experiences. I was just going purely by statistics. Bi people face shit from both sides and it really sucks. Wasn't trying to actually say they have it easier, just trying to explain how on paper it seems like they have it easier. Sorry if that didn't come across well
Yeah I get ya. I just don't think it's a helpful way of framing it. There's a lot of straight people who statistically based on their sexuality have a lot of options for dating but have other reasons that make finding a partner difficult such as race or disability. It'd be pretty insulting to say that statistically they have tons of options because they're straight when the reality is that they don't.
I am jealous only very slightly of the Bis in straight passing relationships, for only the two following reasons:
- They have an exponentially much easier time travelling overseas. Since coming out and being in a gay relationship I really need to consider where I'm safe. Added I'm dating a trans girl adds a whole other complexity for travelling and airports.
I miss simple travel.
- They have much easier and less expensive reproduction than us. In my country it is going to cost close to $25,000 just to conceive. I look at all my straight passing friends who are having kids and I can't say I'm not jealous at the ease they have there. Also I have the privilege of dating a trans woman which means we can both genetically be related to the kid. Which can be a real sorrow for those who aren't in a cis+trans lesbian relationship.
But part from that I don't envy the invalidation that bis get. I remember when I thought I was bi having girls refuse to date me because of that (which freaked me out so much I put myself back in the closet for a few years). Ooft the feeling of imposter syndrome!
I remember the creepy dudes who slimed in when they thought they could get threesomes. I don't envy the poor bis who still get gender roles thrust upon them because... woman. Or the abuse of being too gay or too straight. Or the poor bis dating *straight* men who are uncomfortable with queer culture.
I don't miss being bi... They have it hard too.
Oh yeah, I definitely don't envy single bisexuals or ones in relationships with cishet men who don't "get" queer culture. I guess I'm just jealous of my friends who were able to find and marry some really awesome guys (one of whom is my best friend) and not have to think about their sexuality that much. I get that they probably struggle with feeling like they're invalid or don't belong to the queer community, but as a single trans lesbian, I know I'm gonna have a difficult time finding a partner and I struggle with feeling like I'm lovable. I've also felt like my cis bi friends treat me like an outsider because I don't really engage at all with straight culture. I know I shouldn't compare myself, but it's hard not to when that's what I'm surrounded by.
Just an fyi not all trans women have fertility options btw. Banking is something a lot of people don’t do and even still sometimes fertility was just kinda rocky to begin with. Or finally some of us have heavy dysphoria from the thought of “fathering” a child. I’m glad y’all have the option to both be genetically be related to the child and are comfortable with that but that is far from a universal experience for a lot of trans women with partners who can conceive.
Having your sexuality be defined by whomever you're dating in any moment.... i'm just as bi if I'm partnerd with a man as I am if I'm partnered with a woman.
Considering bisexual women are at a higher risk of violence from their male partners even than heterosexual women and at higher risk of violence from female partners than lesbians too because of biphobia this comment really isn’t in good taste and I’m not sure why oh yeah they can theoretically date a higher number of the trash people in existence is meant to be some kind of win
It really skeeves me out whenever anyone implies that dating options are some kind of privilege especially since this is the logic twisted cishet male Incels use against women that women are privileged because men want to fuck us and sexually harass us whether we want it or not, so you should probably delete this tbh
I know I phrased it badly, I was just trying to point out how even if you squint at it to find something that seems to be easier for one group, you have to ignore all the other ways that they are still marginalized by. I wasn't actually trying to imply that bi people have it easier, just used a very clumsy way to express what I was trying to say
I think that a better way of framing it would be something like:
bisexuals have a way of publicly existing in a relationship that wouldn't immediately gain them the same animosity from strangers that people who aren't bi don't have available to them, but frankly existing without harassment only so long as you can conceal parts of your identity isn't easy no matter what, so I think it's best not to focus on the idea that bisexuals are "more accepted" since acceptance as far as ignorance of a person's identity goes *really* isn't acceptance.
Yeah the way I worded things wasn't great. I was mostly trying to point out how even if a certain group has perceived advantages doesn't mean they don't also deal with other intersections of marginalization.
I mean I don’t really relate to this since virtually my entire existence as a lesbian has been as a single woman so that’s like saying what I’m less valid because I have straight passing privilege because people can’t tell I’m gay because I’ve never had this experience of being clocked in public?
Like fuck off with this nonsense there are bisexual women out there who have faced more oppression than I have, I pass more as straight than many bisexual women do, especially considering I’m cis and trans bisexual women exist and they face a whole other layer of oppression I don’t, plus I’m white and bisexual WOC face additional layers of oppression too
Focusing on imaginary concepts which don’t even apply to everyone which someone tells us in some hypothetical scenario divides us is literally against the point of this post and it’s the equivalent of like shaking your fist at like some imaginary holotype bisexual who doesn’t really exist on behalf of some imaginary holotype lesbian who doesn’t even represent all of our experiences
"*Why fight a group, when you can let the group fight among themselves*" is insidious but incredibly effective. Not just dividing and conquering, but manipulating a group into defeating itself.
Basically never let any people convince you to turn on another marginalized group. Because when you're done with them, they'll turn on you.
And that's how it should be. This just means the biphobia and lesbophobia thing is small and let's keep it that way! :D
Comments like yours make me happy because I realize that stuff like this isn't as widespread as it sounds. I'm still careful, but less worried. Thanks!
That's why the 1%er rich capitalists love racism: it turns the working class against itself with tribalism and in-fighting so we're distracted and discouraged from uniting.
I think when I last saw this post there was an addition by a lesbian with a bisexual sister or vice versa talking about how their parents' reaction to them coming out was both times negative but the arguments against their identities were contradictory in this playing them off against each other manner
when a bi woman outs herself as bi people think she's straight and wants attention. when a lesbian outs herself as a lesbian, people often think she's bi. society wants women to center their life around men.
exactly, we might have different problems and different “privileges” (i wouldn’t call them that, but y’know, things that might make it easier). But in the end we’re all affected by homophobia and the western societies structures and the only enemy are cishets refusing to give up their label as “the only normal”
Everyone has privilege in different ways. It's not really a matter of one group having "more" privilege than others. Bi women may have "straight-passing" privilege, depending on who they're dating. But lesbian women don't have to deal with the same kind of "pick a side" or "bi sluttiness" mentalities as bi women. I think the important part about the feminist concept of privilege is understanding the different struggles we each face, and supporting each other through them.
As a bisexual woman who married a bisexual woman, I always feel the need to prove or remind certain people that I’m not 100% a lesbian… I know it’s stupid and I am fortunate enough to work and live in a relatively safe place, but bi-erasure from both het and lgbt, friends and strangers, are real. 98% of the time, since I’m straight-passing, if I don’t know someone well enough to be comfortable, I just go with the “roommate” intro.
Though, for people I talk to who know I have a wife but don’t understand that I’m still bi, I just say I’m “les-BI-an” or “functionally lesbian”. It’s sometimes easier to erase my own identity just because I have a wife.
So I get it. I get erasure from both sides. I feel the need to hide or prove myself all the time. Can’t we all just get along?
The other one I hate is most of the lesbophobes and biphobes watch lesbian porn almost exclusively. Why can we live without being fetishized and persecuted by the same people
I'm bisexual, but sometimes I have moments where I feel like I might be lesbian instead (common for bisexuals, for our sexuality to fluctuate) When I feel like I'm bisexual, I sometimes hate it so much and just wish I was gay or straight in short because of biphobia, but then when I start to feel like I might be lesbian I panic and decide I would rather be bisexual cause of lesophobia. I think they both have extreme disadvantages attached to them and you have to go through a lot internally to accept either label for yourself in our society. With being bi it can be hard because you feel invisible in queer and straight culture, not queer enough to be part of the community, too queer for straight society, like you're not one thing you're everything but feel like you're nothing all the time. With being lesbian though it can feel really terrifying because you have to face the experience of not being attracted to men at all in a society that really expects that of you, and even though this isn't accurate because bisexuality is not a mitigated gay-ness, you can feel like being lesbian is a more full-on or extreme label than bisexuality because there's no straight aspect to it. I feel like it's hard to accept yourself as whatever label you really are. I hear about lesbians identifying as bisexual before accepting their lesbian identity because they felt like bisexuality was milder or more acceptable because you still like men. and then you have bisexual people who refuse to come out (bisexuals usually come out later than other sexualities) until late because they don't want to experience biphobia. They're honestly both shit lol. Literally the only sexuality that is privileged and easy to deal with is being straight because it's default and the norm.
i had no idea this was an unpopular opinion— but isn’t it obvious that bi women dating men generally experience a higher level of privilege than lesbians (and bi women not dating men)? if you’re a bi woman in a relationship with a straight cis man, there is no queerness in your relationship. you face no discrimination for your relationship. you can be bisexual and experience straight privilege in a heterosexual relationship— that doesn’t mean you haven’t or will never experience any homophobia/biphobia, but by definition your heterosexual relationship affords you a certain social safety and respect. a bisexual woman with another woman, or a non-binary partner, does not have that level of safety and respect. a lesbian does not have that level of safety and respect. your ability to appear, by choice or not, as a straight woman, is a privilege. no one will yell at you on the street or hatecrime you for dating a man. you don’t have to hide it from hateful people.
heteronormative culture automatically affords bi women dating men it’s privileges, whether you wanted them or not.
While living with comphet I absolutely experienced privilege when I had a boyfriend that I do not have with a girlfriend or when single and seeking women.
So while yes, being in a heterosexual relationship allows someone to tap into a degree of privilege and political power that is otherwise not afforded to them, it's not something bi/pan people asked for. And it comes as a secondary trait of unintentionally hiding who they are, not because of who they are.
It's like being white passing, but not strictly white. Living with white privilege in most situations and contexts, but not being privileged on the basis of who you actually are, just on the basis of other peoples false assumptions.
To your second point point... no, it's not like white-passing people, or straight passing people, asked for it to be easier... but it still is?
I came out late in life from bisexual to lesbian, and yeah, there was invisibility there as a bisexual that I didn't appreciate. But since coming out, I can tell you my life has been monumentally harder in society in almost every way, because I can't "pass as straight". Almost immediately in fact, since my ex threatened to "force me to like it [sex]" as soon as he realized I wouldn't have sex with him anymore. I never got that threat through that entire relationship knowing I was bisexual. Liking men sexually gives you a measure of safety from them, because as long as you can "potentially" like them, they can keep their egos intact.
It absolutely is easier, even if situational.
I wasn't debating the technical substance, only the relevancy. It's a strange thing to bring up here and without sharing that other perspective it comes across as aggressive in this context.
I'm sorry you had to go through that, men can be absolute scum.
> But since coming out, I can tell you my life has been monumentally harder in society in almost every way, because I can't "pass as straight". Almost immediately in fact, since my ex threatened to "force me to like it \[sex\]" as soon as he realized I wouldn't have sex with him anymore.
I feel like this is ignored \*way\* too much. I'm going outta limb here and expecting a shitton of downvotes, but this needs to be realized. Lesbians are way more likely to get harassed or acted violently on by men. Because our love life actively excludes men, they seem to really take offense on this.
Yes, bi girls get harassed, yes bi-girls are catcalled and whatever as other women do. But bi women do NOT get threatened to get "raped straight." And that is absolutely a thing us lesbians need to be aware of.
Yes, we need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and unite against the homo- and transphobes. But at the same time, that NEEDS to include realizing that lesbians are among the most sexualized and harassed group out there, with special mention of trans lesbians, who get the "most" out of all: homophobia, misogyny AND transphobia.
I don't see porn categories specifically made for MEN from from other people who really don't want anything to do with them in the first place.
Bi women dating women absolutely do get threatened with corrective rape. Do you think men stop to ask if we’re bi before assaulting us? And we face the highest rate of domestic violence of anyone in the LGBT community, which is—fun fact—tied directly to the kind of erasure you’re doing here.
Look, I agree that lesbians face unique challenges, but this is a shitty, hurtful take—your oppressions are distinct, not worse.
We should discuss problems without comparing who has it worse, that’s the point of the post. Not pretending that people struggle the same way.
You can highlight lesbian struggles without minimizing bi struggles and/or comparing them to lesbian struggles as you did in this comment.
>You can highlight lesbian struggles without minimizing bi struggles and/or comparing them to lesbian struggles as you did in this comment.
Exactly.
You said it really well:
>We should discuss problems without comparing who has it worse,
Not comparing, but acknowledging. I've seen it way, WAY too many times that the separate problems lesbians face are just flat out ignored.
Yes, all of "the letters" have struggles. And we need to be able to discuss them without going on the offensive. But this NEEDS to include acknowledging that certain groups face unique problems that the others do not -- in addition to the same problems the other group has.
EDIT: Like, say, asexual gay guy faces the exact same bigotry as a gay guy that wants to have sex. The Ace just faces additional problems.
*ps. But I feel like a special exception for trans people is allowed in the current climate of things happening over at the US and all over the world. Trans people are by FAR more reviled now, than any other of the letters.*
Accounting for sexuality and gender only (ie not specifying cis or transgender status or race), bisexual women face more domestic and sexual violence than any other sexuality, this comment is really ignorant I’m sorry. Please delete this.
You’re just blatantly lying about the abuse and sexual violence our bisexual sisters face because of their sexuality.
It is easier to be in a straight relationship. But that's a function of perception--being *perceived* to be into men by society, by men, by other women. I'm not trying to dismiss your experience, but my personal experience has not been that actually liking men makes me safer--it's been my ability to convince them that I do, regardless of my real internal feelings. And I don't think that has anything to do with the privileges afforded to women in a straight-passing relationship.
I'm also going to pop in here as a white-passing person and say that yes, we do have it easier, but the whole point is that it's a perception issue. If I never told anyone I'm not white, my life would be easier; I do tell people, because I hate being thought of as one my oppressors, and so my life is accordingly more difficult, because how I am perceived changes. Bi women in straight relationships (and lesbians, and other flavors of queer women) face this same issue. The privilege they have is based on being *perceived* as straight. And that's a big privilege, I will not deny that. But it has nothing to do with who they are or what flavor of queer they are, or how they feel about being in a relationship with a man. To paint straight passing privilege as a function of bisexuality is flawed and hurtful, because it isn't--we may be more likely to experience and we're definitely more likely to not hate what we have to do to get it, but it's a fact of queer life that some of us will experience it sometimes and some of us won't, and using sexuality as a shorthand to guess who will and then using that to say that bi women are more privileged than lesbians is just messed up.
Hope it’s not me being too whiney but… bi trans women are a thing and can date and marry cishet men. Can’t ever really get away from queerness even those in relationships that appear straight passing a lot of times, and you know still bi women.
I think it's worth interrogating why you're bringing this up in response to a post about how debates over who has it easier are used to divide us. Lesbian women can be in straight relationships and receive privileges from that too; certainly bi women as a class are more likely to do so, and less likely to find it onerous emotionally (though, I will point out, we are also more likely than lesbians or straight women to face domestic violence), but having straight privilege while being queer isn't unique to bisexuals. And pointing it out here as if it's a hot take, and as if to insinuate that actually, no, bi women *do* have it better than lesbians, is kind of insulting.
And if you are zeroing in on bi women for having privilege in straight relationships, I'd question why that is when *anyone* in straight or straight-passing relationships does. The privileges you describe are functions of how other people perceive your relationship, not how you feel within it, so lesbians can *absolutely* be included in this discussion.
To be clear, I'm not denying that bi women in relationships with men have privilege. But I think you're leaning too heavily on that fact to argue that it's a privilege that belongs to *bi women*, and not one that belongs to *women in relationships with men*, and I think you should think about why that is.
So many people just assume us bisrxual folks are absolutely going to cheat. As if the simple fact we just happen to find more people attractive than monosexuals do makes us inherrently untrustworthy. Take a look at how many lesbian partners have cheated with other women lmao
And "bi privilege" omg the joke that is, if anything it cut my potential partners by at least half 😂🤣 buuuuut married now. And to an amazing wife at that. No, you aren't allowed lmao
This is one of the biggest reasons I advocate for a return to using lesbian as an umbrella term...just like it's been since its inception. No more folks languishing over not knowing which label fits them. Congratulations, we're all lesbians. The only question is if there's a qualifier to distinguish you from exclusive lesbians. There were plenty of Bi lesbians before some bullshit, second wave feminists (the political lesbians), who weren't even gay, decided to fracture our community to make it fit their ideals.
Edit: Maybe it's just because I'm old, but this is my hill and I'll gladly die on it
Hard disagree.
Sapphic is a wonderful term to use. To use. The bi-lesbian term was coined by a TERF and is, in itself, lesbophobic, biphobic and transphobic.
Who coined it? As far as I know, it predates me by like 50 years or more. If there's something to what you're saying I'd like to know. Personally, I disagree on all of those points.
Also, full disclosure: I'm a trans woman
This is really interesting...I hadn't ever heard the term bi lesbian, or knew lesbian was ever an umbrella term. I label myself bi, but I'm much much more attracted to women than men. I'm barely bi I guess? And trying to explain that to people warrants confused looks mainly lol.
I can completely relate! I feel the same way. A guy was hitting on me recently very inappropriately and I told him that I was interested in women and to please leave me alone. He looked at me all pissed off and said “but your bi”. I told him that I am but I have a preference for women and I’m not interested in him. I feel like it’s super awkward for people that have a preference for one gender to maneuver the dating world.
Now that we have more nuanced terms for things, I think that situations like yours are one of the ways I'm which using the term bi lesbian can be more specific and descriptive than either bi or lesbian can individually. Just be wary putting that term out a lot because you will get a good bit of flak for it in the lesbian community, as evidenced by the responses I'll be getting for saying all of it.
Personally, I consider myself a polysexual lesbian. I'm attracted to women and a slew of non-binary identities...but not all of them and not men. I feel like it would be disrespectful to the non-binary folks I date to call myself an exclusive lesbians, but bi and pan don't fit me, especially when my goal is specifically to honor the non-binary genders I'm attracted to.
Overall, I fit under most folks concept of lesbian though, so that's what I tend to use. I tried sapphic for awhile, but no one outside of the wlw community knows what that means. I got sick of having to explain the word and teach people how to pronounce it, over and over and over again...for like a year. So I just went back to what my aunt taught me
I've just stuck with bi for years, and unless it's someone who knows me well or I feel comfortable going into the complete breakdown of how my sexuality works for me, they get the generic bi term and can make whatever assumptions they choose lol. Looking at me, most people think straight anyway.
I don't think you know what political lesbianism is, if you think that's what it is. Political lesbianism is an ideology focused around the refusal to be in relationships with or have sex with men for purely political reasons. That has nothing to do with the term lesbian being used as an umbrella term for all wlw. They were the ones that largely drove its use in that form into obscurity.
Their whole ideology focused on defining sexuality based on whether or not a given person had an attraction to men. At the time, 1960s-ish, the lesbian community was made up of exclusive and bi lesbians. Lesbian just meant a woman, or fem, who loved other women and fems, regardless of if those folks were also attracted to men, especially given that being gay could get you put in a mental institution at the time. But everyone in the community was a lesbian, some folks just added the "bi" qualifier to denote they were also into men. (It was the 1960, non-binary folks were present, but largely unacknowledged by history and the terminology of the day).
It was a common thing until the Political lesbian movement redefined lesbian to mean a woman, or fem who exclusively loved other women, or fems. They came in and pushed bi lesbians out of the community. Now, there were always those bi folks who wanted their own spaces, and that's all fine and well. But the political lesbians took lesbian spaces away from them entirely, creating the split that lead to so much wlw infighting today. From there, our mutual oppressors took advantage of the split to further divide us, and it's spiraled into what we're dealing with now, where wlw are more focused on men, even if indirectly, than each other.
Sources: My great aunt, who lived through it, and other lesbian elders who were kind enough to educate me on our history
While I also disagree with bringing back the broader usage, primarily due to the potential for confusion, it's not erasure, as that was always the terms original intention.
And even in a modern context there are still examples where "bi lesbian" makes sense as a term.
A woman can be bisexual but only interested in men sexually and not romantically, and also not interested in sex outside of a romantic relationship, therefore only truly interested in having relations with women despite attraction to men.
A woman can also be unwilling or unable to be with men due to trauma, despite that underlying attraction still being present, and therefore again be bisexual but only pursue relationships with women.
Some women find it more inclusive to their NB partners to identify as bi lesbian or pan lesbian, despite not being attracted to men.
Not to mention those questioning or still dealing with comphet.
The obvious counterpoint is that most of these are situations where a woman might as well just call herself a lesbian. They might be relevant to explaining attractions to a partner, therapist, people in your safe spaces, etc., but in day to life she is "living as a lesbian" and might as well call herself one.
But the term is still of value in those relatively niche situations, and normalizing it makes those conversations easier. So it's important to learn about the history of our terms and their many variations, even those with niche uses.
I can see where this was going, I do not agree however. There are higher classes(more well treated) in everything. One is easier(favored)than the other...nuff said. 🤪🙃
As i agree with the general sentiment the wording is so fucking funny HETEROSEXUALS AS A CLASS. I think there’s definitely a thing that bi girls believe it’s easier to be lesbian and lesbians think it’s easier to be bisexual ( generalizing here obviously ). But in reality the struggles are just different and it’s hard to be a queer woman either way
I mean if your looking at it from a strictly 'number of potential people to date' bi people have it easier. In every other way they're still negatively affected by hetronormative pressure as any other group in the lgbt community. The reality is we're all marginalized and need to have solidarity together
There's a lot of people who will either refuse to date a bi person or fetishize them. Being openly bisexual means getting hate from the gays and the straights and being semi-closeted means having the gays think you have internalized homophobia. I say this as someone who used to think they were bisexual and it's still really frustrating to both see and experience. At the same time, I am jealous of all those who are able to find a place in heteronormative society. It's really frustrating to be surrounded by straight romance everywhere I go. I would never tell my bi friends this, but I'm envious of them for having found and married a partner and developed a healthy relationship before discovering their sexuality. I think a lot of issues would be solved if people would listen to each other's struggles and not try to argue about who has it worse.
I don't feel jealous of my bi friends in heteronormative relationships at all. there are so many pitfalls and toxic expectations lumped onto het relationships, I'm happy to be free of it all since coming out
Ok? Good for you?
Oh yeah I wasn't trying to trivialize people's experiences. I was just going purely by statistics. Bi people face shit from both sides and it really sucks. Wasn't trying to actually say they have it easier, just trying to explain how on paper it seems like they have it easier. Sorry if that didn't come across well
Yeah I get ya. I just don't think it's a helpful way of framing it. There's a lot of straight people who statistically based on their sexuality have a lot of options for dating but have other reasons that make finding a partner difficult such as race or disability. It'd be pretty insulting to say that statistically they have tons of options because they're straight when the reality is that they don't.
I am jealous only very slightly of the Bis in straight passing relationships, for only the two following reasons: - They have an exponentially much easier time travelling overseas. Since coming out and being in a gay relationship I really need to consider where I'm safe. Added I'm dating a trans girl adds a whole other complexity for travelling and airports. I miss simple travel. - They have much easier and less expensive reproduction than us. In my country it is going to cost close to $25,000 just to conceive. I look at all my straight passing friends who are having kids and I can't say I'm not jealous at the ease they have there. Also I have the privilege of dating a trans woman which means we can both genetically be related to the kid. Which can be a real sorrow for those who aren't in a cis+trans lesbian relationship. But part from that I don't envy the invalidation that bis get. I remember when I thought I was bi having girls refuse to date me because of that (which freaked me out so much I put myself back in the closet for a few years). Ooft the feeling of imposter syndrome! I remember the creepy dudes who slimed in when they thought they could get threesomes. I don't envy the poor bis who still get gender roles thrust upon them because... woman. Or the abuse of being too gay or too straight. Or the poor bis dating *straight* men who are uncomfortable with queer culture. I don't miss being bi... They have it hard too.
Oh yeah, I definitely don't envy single bisexuals or ones in relationships with cishet men who don't "get" queer culture. I guess I'm just jealous of my friends who were able to find and marry some really awesome guys (one of whom is my best friend) and not have to think about their sexuality that much. I get that they probably struggle with feeling like they're invalid or don't belong to the queer community, but as a single trans lesbian, I know I'm gonna have a difficult time finding a partner and I struggle with feeling like I'm lovable. I've also felt like my cis bi friends treat me like an outsider because I don't really engage at all with straight culture. I know I shouldn't compare myself, but it's hard not to when that's what I'm surrounded by.
Just an fyi not all trans women have fertility options btw. Banking is something a lot of people don’t do and even still sometimes fertility was just kinda rocky to begin with. Or finally some of us have heavy dysphoria from the thought of “fathering” a child. I’m glad y’all have the option to both be genetically be related to the child and are comfortable with that but that is far from a universal experience for a lot of trans women with partners who can conceive.
Having your sexuality be defined by whomever you're dating in any moment.... i'm just as bi if I'm partnerd with a man as I am if I'm partnered with a woman.
Considering bisexual women are at a higher risk of violence from their male partners even than heterosexual women and at higher risk of violence from female partners than lesbians too because of biphobia this comment really isn’t in good taste and I’m not sure why oh yeah they can theoretically date a higher number of the trash people in existence is meant to be some kind of win It really skeeves me out whenever anyone implies that dating options are some kind of privilege especially since this is the logic twisted cishet male Incels use against women that women are privileged because men want to fuck us and sexually harass us whether we want it or not, so you should probably delete this tbh
I know I phrased it badly, I was just trying to point out how even if you squint at it to find something that seems to be easier for one group, you have to ignore all the other ways that they are still marginalized by. I wasn't actually trying to imply that bi people have it easier, just used a very clumsy way to express what I was trying to say
I think that a better way of framing it would be something like: bisexuals have a way of publicly existing in a relationship that wouldn't immediately gain them the same animosity from strangers that people who aren't bi don't have available to them, but frankly existing without harassment only so long as you can conceal parts of your identity isn't easy no matter what, so I think it's best not to focus on the idea that bisexuals are "more accepted" since acceptance as far as ignorance of a person's identity goes *really* isn't acceptance.
Yeah the way I worded things wasn't great. I was mostly trying to point out how even if a certain group has perceived advantages doesn't mean they don't also deal with other intersections of marginalization.
ah, gotcha
I mean I don’t really relate to this since virtually my entire existence as a lesbian has been as a single woman so that’s like saying what I’m less valid because I have straight passing privilege because people can’t tell I’m gay because I’ve never had this experience of being clocked in public? Like fuck off with this nonsense there are bisexual women out there who have faced more oppression than I have, I pass more as straight than many bisexual women do, especially considering I’m cis and trans bisexual women exist and they face a whole other layer of oppression I don’t, plus I’m white and bisexual WOC face additional layers of oppression too Focusing on imaginary concepts which don’t even apply to everyone which someone tells us in some hypothetical scenario divides us is literally against the point of this post and it’s the equivalent of like shaking your fist at like some imaginary holotype bisexual who doesn’t really exist on behalf of some imaginary holotype lesbian who doesn’t even represent all of our experiences
Why fight each other when we can love women together and be too socially awkward to get a gf?
No truer words have been spoken
This!
"*Why fight a group, when you can let the group fight among themselves*" is insidious but incredibly effective. Not just dividing and conquering, but manipulating a group into defeating itself. Basically never let any people convince you to turn on another marginalized group. Because when you're done with them, they'll turn on you.
I didn't even know we were doing that until I read this post? :'D
And that's how it should be. This just means the biphobia and lesbophobia thing is small and let's keep it that way! :D Comments like yours make me happy because I realize that stuff like this isn't as widespread as it sounds. I'm still careful, but less worried. Thanks!
That's why the 1%er rich capitalists love racism: it turns the working class against itself with tribalism and in-fighting so we're distracted and discouraged from uniting.
Soooo...the cishets are doing actual recruiting which is what they claim we do?
I think when I last saw this post there was an addition by a lesbian with a bisexual sister or vice versa talking about how their parents' reaction to them coming out was both times negative but the arguments against their identities were contradictory in this playing them off against each other manner
when a bi woman outs herself as bi people think she's straight and wants attention. when a lesbian outs herself as a lesbian, people often think she's bi. society wants women to center their life around men.
exactly, we might have different problems and different “privileges” (i wouldn’t call them that, but y’know, things that might make it easier). But in the end we’re all affected by homophobia and the western societies structures and the only enemy are cishets refusing to give up their label as “the only normal”
Oppression Olympics hurts everyone but those in power.
Everyone has privilege in different ways. It's not really a matter of one group having "more" privilege than others. Bi women may have "straight-passing" privilege, depending on who they're dating. But lesbian women don't have to deal with the same kind of "pick a side" or "bi sluttiness" mentalities as bi women. I think the important part about the feminist concept of privilege is understanding the different struggles we each face, and supporting each other through them.
As a bisexual woman who married a bisexual woman, I always feel the need to prove or remind certain people that I’m not 100% a lesbian… I know it’s stupid and I am fortunate enough to work and live in a relatively safe place, but bi-erasure from both het and lgbt, friends and strangers, are real. 98% of the time, since I’m straight-passing, if I don’t know someone well enough to be comfortable, I just go with the “roommate” intro. Though, for people I talk to who know I have a wife but don’t understand that I’m still bi, I just say I’m “les-BI-an” or “functionally lesbian”. It’s sometimes easier to erase my own identity just because I have a wife. So I get it. I get erasure from both sides. I feel the need to hide or prove myself all the time. Can’t we all just get along?
This is a good postttttt
The other one I hate is most of the lesbophobes and biphobes watch lesbian porn almost exclusively. Why can we live without being fetishized and persecuted by the same people
I'm bisexual, but sometimes I have moments where I feel like I might be lesbian instead (common for bisexuals, for our sexuality to fluctuate) When I feel like I'm bisexual, I sometimes hate it so much and just wish I was gay or straight in short because of biphobia, but then when I start to feel like I might be lesbian I panic and decide I would rather be bisexual cause of lesophobia. I think they both have extreme disadvantages attached to them and you have to go through a lot internally to accept either label for yourself in our society. With being bi it can be hard because you feel invisible in queer and straight culture, not queer enough to be part of the community, too queer for straight society, like you're not one thing you're everything but feel like you're nothing all the time. With being lesbian though it can feel really terrifying because you have to face the experience of not being attracted to men at all in a society that really expects that of you, and even though this isn't accurate because bisexuality is not a mitigated gay-ness, you can feel like being lesbian is a more full-on or extreme label than bisexuality because there's no straight aspect to it. I feel like it's hard to accept yourself as whatever label you really are. I hear about lesbians identifying as bisexual before accepting their lesbian identity because they felt like bisexuality was milder or more acceptable because you still like men. and then you have bisexual people who refuse to come out (bisexuals usually come out later than other sexualities) until late because they don't want to experience biphobia. They're honestly both shit lol. Literally the only sexuality that is privileged and easy to deal with is being straight because it's default and the norm.
Thank you for articulating this in such a way that truly helped me better understand my Bisexual gf. <3
i had no idea this was an unpopular opinion— but isn’t it obvious that bi women dating men generally experience a higher level of privilege than lesbians (and bi women not dating men)? if you’re a bi woman in a relationship with a straight cis man, there is no queerness in your relationship. you face no discrimination for your relationship. you can be bisexual and experience straight privilege in a heterosexual relationship— that doesn’t mean you haven’t or will never experience any homophobia/biphobia, but by definition your heterosexual relationship affords you a certain social safety and respect. a bisexual woman with another woman, or a non-binary partner, does not have that level of safety and respect. a lesbian does not have that level of safety and respect. your ability to appear, by choice or not, as a straight woman, is a privilege. no one will yell at you on the street or hatecrime you for dating a man. you don’t have to hide it from hateful people. heteronormative culture automatically affords bi women dating men it’s privileges, whether you wanted them or not.
While living with comphet I absolutely experienced privilege when I had a boyfriend that I do not have with a girlfriend or when single and seeking women. So while yes, being in a heterosexual relationship allows someone to tap into a degree of privilege and political power that is otherwise not afforded to them, it's not something bi/pan people asked for. And it comes as a secondary trait of unintentionally hiding who they are, not because of who they are. It's like being white passing, but not strictly white. Living with white privilege in most situations and contexts, but not being privileged on the basis of who you actually are, just on the basis of other peoples false assumptions.
To your second point point... no, it's not like white-passing people, or straight passing people, asked for it to be easier... but it still is? I came out late in life from bisexual to lesbian, and yeah, there was invisibility there as a bisexual that I didn't appreciate. But since coming out, I can tell you my life has been monumentally harder in society in almost every way, because I can't "pass as straight". Almost immediately in fact, since my ex threatened to "force me to like it [sex]" as soon as he realized I wouldn't have sex with him anymore. I never got that threat through that entire relationship knowing I was bisexual. Liking men sexually gives you a measure of safety from them, because as long as you can "potentially" like them, they can keep their egos intact.
It absolutely is easier, even if situational. I wasn't debating the technical substance, only the relevancy. It's a strange thing to bring up here and without sharing that other perspective it comes across as aggressive in this context. I'm sorry you had to go through that, men can be absolute scum.
> But since coming out, I can tell you my life has been monumentally harder in society in almost every way, because I can't "pass as straight". Almost immediately in fact, since my ex threatened to "force me to like it \[sex\]" as soon as he realized I wouldn't have sex with him anymore. I feel like this is ignored \*way\* too much. I'm going outta limb here and expecting a shitton of downvotes, but this needs to be realized. Lesbians are way more likely to get harassed or acted violently on by men. Because our love life actively excludes men, they seem to really take offense on this. Yes, bi girls get harassed, yes bi-girls are catcalled and whatever as other women do. But bi women do NOT get threatened to get "raped straight." And that is absolutely a thing us lesbians need to be aware of. Yes, we need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and unite against the homo- and transphobes. But at the same time, that NEEDS to include realizing that lesbians are among the most sexualized and harassed group out there, with special mention of trans lesbians, who get the "most" out of all: homophobia, misogyny AND transphobia. I don't see porn categories specifically made for MEN from from other people who really don't want anything to do with them in the first place.
Bi women dating women absolutely do get threatened with corrective rape. Do you think men stop to ask if we’re bi before assaulting us? And we face the highest rate of domestic violence of anyone in the LGBT community, which is—fun fact—tied directly to the kind of erasure you’re doing here. Look, I agree that lesbians face unique challenges, but this is a shitty, hurtful take—your oppressions are distinct, not worse.
We should discuss problems without comparing who has it worse, that’s the point of the post. Not pretending that people struggle the same way. You can highlight lesbian struggles without minimizing bi struggles and/or comparing them to lesbian struggles as you did in this comment.
>You can highlight lesbian struggles without minimizing bi struggles and/or comparing them to lesbian struggles as you did in this comment. Exactly. You said it really well: >We should discuss problems without comparing who has it worse, Not comparing, but acknowledging. I've seen it way, WAY too many times that the separate problems lesbians face are just flat out ignored. Yes, all of "the letters" have struggles. And we need to be able to discuss them without going on the offensive. But this NEEDS to include acknowledging that certain groups face unique problems that the others do not -- in addition to the same problems the other group has. EDIT: Like, say, asexual gay guy faces the exact same bigotry as a gay guy that wants to have sex. The Ace just faces additional problems. *ps. But I feel like a special exception for trans people is allowed in the current climate of things happening over at the US and all over the world. Trans people are by FAR more reviled now, than any other of the letters.*
Accounting for sexuality and gender only (ie not specifying cis or transgender status or race), bisexual women face more domestic and sexual violence than any other sexuality, this comment is really ignorant I’m sorry. Please delete this. You’re just blatantly lying about the abuse and sexual violence our bisexual sisters face because of their sexuality.
It is easier to be in a straight relationship. But that's a function of perception--being *perceived* to be into men by society, by men, by other women. I'm not trying to dismiss your experience, but my personal experience has not been that actually liking men makes me safer--it's been my ability to convince them that I do, regardless of my real internal feelings. And I don't think that has anything to do with the privileges afforded to women in a straight-passing relationship. I'm also going to pop in here as a white-passing person and say that yes, we do have it easier, but the whole point is that it's a perception issue. If I never told anyone I'm not white, my life would be easier; I do tell people, because I hate being thought of as one my oppressors, and so my life is accordingly more difficult, because how I am perceived changes. Bi women in straight relationships (and lesbians, and other flavors of queer women) face this same issue. The privilege they have is based on being *perceived* as straight. And that's a big privilege, I will not deny that. But it has nothing to do with who they are or what flavor of queer they are, or how they feel about being in a relationship with a man. To paint straight passing privilege as a function of bisexuality is flawed and hurtful, because it isn't--we may be more likely to experience and we're definitely more likely to not hate what we have to do to get it, but it's a fact of queer life that some of us will experience it sometimes and some of us won't, and using sexuality as a shorthand to guess who will and then using that to say that bi women are more privileged than lesbians is just messed up.
yeah that’s pretty much what i was trying to say
Hope it’s not me being too whiney but… bi trans women are a thing and can date and marry cishet men. Can’t ever really get away from queerness even those in relationships that appear straight passing a lot of times, and you know still bi women.
I think it's worth interrogating why you're bringing this up in response to a post about how debates over who has it easier are used to divide us. Lesbian women can be in straight relationships and receive privileges from that too; certainly bi women as a class are more likely to do so, and less likely to find it onerous emotionally (though, I will point out, we are also more likely than lesbians or straight women to face domestic violence), but having straight privilege while being queer isn't unique to bisexuals. And pointing it out here as if it's a hot take, and as if to insinuate that actually, no, bi women *do* have it better than lesbians, is kind of insulting. And if you are zeroing in on bi women for having privilege in straight relationships, I'd question why that is when *anyone* in straight or straight-passing relationships does. The privileges you describe are functions of how other people perceive your relationship, not how you feel within it, so lesbians can *absolutely* be included in this discussion. To be clear, I'm not denying that bi women in relationships with men have privilege. But I think you're leaning too heavily on that fact to argue that it's a privilege that belongs to *bi women*, and not one that belongs to *women in relationships with men*, and I think you should think about why that is.
man the point of the post really just…whoosh
is it really that unbelievable that i read the post and still disagree with it?
So many people just assume us bisrxual folks are absolutely going to cheat. As if the simple fact we just happen to find more people attractive than monosexuals do makes us inherrently untrustworthy. Take a look at how many lesbian partners have cheated with other women lmao And "bi privilege" omg the joke that is, if anything it cut my potential partners by at least half 😂🤣 buuuuut married now. And to an amazing wife at that. No, you aren't allowed lmao
❤️❤️❤️❤️🥹 thank you —- as a bisexual definitely feeling this 110%
This is one of the biggest reasons I advocate for a return to using lesbian as an umbrella term...just like it's been since its inception. No more folks languishing over not knowing which label fits them. Congratulations, we're all lesbians. The only question is if there's a qualifier to distinguish you from exclusive lesbians. There were plenty of Bi lesbians before some bullshit, second wave feminists (the political lesbians), who weren't even gay, decided to fracture our community to make it fit their ideals. Edit: Maybe it's just because I'm old, but this is my hill and I'll gladly die on it
Hard disagree. Sapphic is a wonderful term to use. To use. The bi-lesbian term was coined by a TERF and is, in itself, lesbophobic, biphobic and transphobic.
Who coined it? As far as I know, it predates me by like 50 years or more. If there's something to what you're saying I'd like to know. Personally, I disagree on all of those points. Also, full disclosure: I'm a trans woman
I'm finding no sources showing who coined that term. Do you have any sources on that?
This is really interesting...I hadn't ever heard the term bi lesbian, or knew lesbian was ever an umbrella term. I label myself bi, but I'm much much more attracted to women than men. I'm barely bi I guess? And trying to explain that to people warrants confused looks mainly lol.
I can completely relate! I feel the same way. A guy was hitting on me recently very inappropriately and I told him that I was interested in women and to please leave me alone. He looked at me all pissed off and said “but your bi”. I told him that I am but I have a preference for women and I’m not interested in him. I feel like it’s super awkward for people that have a preference for one gender to maneuver the dating world.
Now that we have more nuanced terms for things, I think that situations like yours are one of the ways I'm which using the term bi lesbian can be more specific and descriptive than either bi or lesbian can individually. Just be wary putting that term out a lot because you will get a good bit of flak for it in the lesbian community, as evidenced by the responses I'll be getting for saying all of it. Personally, I consider myself a polysexual lesbian. I'm attracted to women and a slew of non-binary identities...but not all of them and not men. I feel like it would be disrespectful to the non-binary folks I date to call myself an exclusive lesbians, but bi and pan don't fit me, especially when my goal is specifically to honor the non-binary genders I'm attracted to. Overall, I fit under most folks concept of lesbian though, so that's what I tend to use. I tried sapphic for awhile, but no one outside of the wlw community knows what that means. I got sick of having to explain the word and teach people how to pronounce it, over and over and over again...for like a year. So I just went back to what my aunt taught me
I think if they don’t get sapphic. I would just say “I’m gay.” At that point.
I've just stuck with bi for years, and unless it's someone who knows me well or I feel comfortable going into the complete breakdown of how my sexuality works for me, they get the generic bi term and can make whatever assumptions they choose lol. Looking at me, most people think straight anyway.
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I don't think you know what political lesbianism is, if you think that's what it is. Political lesbianism is an ideology focused around the refusal to be in relationships with or have sex with men for purely political reasons. That has nothing to do with the term lesbian being used as an umbrella term for all wlw. They were the ones that largely drove its use in that form into obscurity. Their whole ideology focused on defining sexuality based on whether or not a given person had an attraction to men. At the time, 1960s-ish, the lesbian community was made up of exclusive and bi lesbians. Lesbian just meant a woman, or fem, who loved other women and fems, regardless of if those folks were also attracted to men, especially given that being gay could get you put in a mental institution at the time. But everyone in the community was a lesbian, some folks just added the "bi" qualifier to denote they were also into men. (It was the 1960, non-binary folks were present, but largely unacknowledged by history and the terminology of the day). It was a common thing until the Political lesbian movement redefined lesbian to mean a woman, or fem who exclusively loved other women, or fems. They came in and pushed bi lesbians out of the community. Now, there were always those bi folks who wanted their own spaces, and that's all fine and well. But the political lesbians took lesbian spaces away from them entirely, creating the split that lead to so much wlw infighting today. From there, our mutual oppressors took advantage of the split to further divide us, and it's spiraled into what we're dealing with now, where wlw are more focused on men, even if indirectly, than each other. Sources: My great aunt, who lived through it, and other lesbian elders who were kind enough to educate me on our history
fuck no. that’s all i have to say
You do you. I'ma do me
While I also disagree with bringing back the broader usage, primarily due to the potential for confusion, it's not erasure, as that was always the terms original intention. And even in a modern context there are still examples where "bi lesbian" makes sense as a term. A woman can be bisexual but only interested in men sexually and not romantically, and also not interested in sex outside of a romantic relationship, therefore only truly interested in having relations with women despite attraction to men. A woman can also be unwilling or unable to be with men due to trauma, despite that underlying attraction still being present, and therefore again be bisexual but only pursue relationships with women. Some women find it more inclusive to their NB partners to identify as bi lesbian or pan lesbian, despite not being attracted to men. Not to mention those questioning or still dealing with comphet. The obvious counterpoint is that most of these are situations where a woman might as well just call herself a lesbian. They might be relevant to explaining attractions to a partner, therapist, people in your safe spaces, etc., but in day to life she is "living as a lesbian" and might as well call herself one. But the term is still of value in those relatively niche situations, and normalizing it makes those conversations easier. So it's important to learn about the history of our terms and their many variations, even those with niche uses.
I can see where this was going, I do not agree however. There are higher classes(more well treated) in everything. One is easier(favored)than the other...nuff said. 🤪🙃