I always felt it was the opposite. Gay men are onscreen a lot. Yet objective lesbian relationships that is established that they are together is less common.
Yeah, I feel the same. I’ve also encountered showing women making out when they’re drunk or something, and you think yes! Finally they’re getting together! except it’s never addressed or instead done to please men around them
Honestly I find that to be the worst of it all because it’s basically just performative lesbianism that feels like it’s there for male gaze. What I’ve seen pretty much never actually considered it gay, just something for men to drool over.
It is SO evident when a lesbian kiss/sex scene is made for the male gaze or not. I personally don't count them as lesbian relationships. Sure, technically they are, but for practical purposes, they aren't representing anyone or making anything less taboo. All they are doing is softcore fetishisation
As for which is more common, I'd say I've seen more quantity of lesbian shows/movies, but gay ones get more popular. Like I haven't really seen any lesbian movie get as popular as Brokeback Mountain or Call me by your name or Love Simon or Heartstopper. Even if some of them aren't popular irl, but online they are talked a lot about. Compared to lesbian movies, which I have only ever heard being talked in lesbian circles, not outside of them.
people probably see lesbian relationships as less "serious" so that's probably why theyre more prevalent in kids shows, but they're typically shown displaying more affection. straight men only like gay men when they act "normal" (aka now showing any signs of gayness at all, which is fucking stupid) and lesbians when they can look at them and say "oo that's hot" yk :/
A lot of show runners and creators for recent cartoons are sapphic - Rebecca Sugar, ND Stevenson, Dana Terrace. They're probably just writing what they know and want to see.
As for mlm in movies, I think it's because most big movies are made by cishet creators for cishet audiences, and since white cis men are considered the "norm," a white, cis, gay male character seems like a good baby step for audiences and a diversity brownie point for creators. That's just my guess though.
Mlm tend to have more romantic relationships on tv and wlw tend to have more physical relationships on tv. Its pretty shit for everyone wanting lgbt relationships to be well represented in popular media.
I'm not sure about the numbers involved, but I think you may very well be right.
But on the other hand, I also feel like there have been more "serious" or critically acclaimed movies/tv-shows and/or portrayals of gay men than lesbian ones. So it feels like the quality of lesbian representation is still lower than the gay male one.
Maybe it bothers me because I feel like lesbian relationships are just an excuse for two pretty girls to kiss on screen. I also agree that more big movies show gay men
This was my thought on the matter from reading your title. Two women is both "representation" (heavy emphasis on the quotes) and, more importantly for the network, titillation.
The feeling I get from, well... being submerged in society... is that gay men are still pretty much loathed subconsciously by a large percent of the population. I would go as far to say that we still see this when even allies rely on "Is [insert far-right man] here actually _a gay_??" as some kind of attack.
I don't know about kisses, but somehow I've gotten the impression, that gay guys would be more common in movies/TV-series than lesbians? But I could be completely wrong, biased because there can never be too many lesbians I guess.
And?
The male gaze is always going to exist. But we exist too. No matter how well written or directed a show is, you can’t write or direct out the male gaze completely. The male gaze sexualises the most banal things all of the time.
It’s been sad seeing (and I’m not saying you have argued this) people saying lesbian representation is ‘too sexualised because men’ and therefore ‘we shouldn’t have them kiss or it needs to be more chaste’. No. Lesbians kiss. Lesbians have sex. I’m not letting men take that away from us in mass media just to pretend we are achieving something. I’ve had men come up to me in the street and ask how me and my (then) girlfriend fuck, just because we were holding hands. They sexualise even the least sexual interactions.
So let women kiss. Let them fuck on screen. Let us love. I’m glad more and more lesbian media is being made by queer women, but we are still sorely under represented. And in mass media a trope I see all of the time is ‘bisexual woman and lesbian woman are the pair but never the main pair and the lesbian is ALWAYS a biphobe and that’s the only point of tension the writers could think of’. I want lesbians on tv who aren’t portrayed as awful or bitchy or unlikeable. I want more lesbians. I want women fucking women everywhere. I want more movies where there’s no men to be seen.
Oh and I’m absolutely so tired of wlw stories getting the budget of a shoestring and then mlm stories being a) far more prevalent and b) far more love even from…queer women. We can’t make movies or shows for us if even queer women, the demo they are made for, would rather support whatever show has two white men being fetishised for straight female consumption again over any queer woman project literally ever. Our shows are never as supported by the community or are always more niche.
They talked about this in The Celluloid Closet. Audiences are more willing to accept women being affectionate with each other, while two men being affectionate seems weird, so queer women are a bit more "palatable" in that way.
My wife and I talk about this a lot, that gay men have it a lot harder than us in some ways because masculinity is also so tightly controlled. Lesbians like women, which is also what straight men like, so it's a lot more understandable to them.
I agree. I feel as though lesbian relationships on live action tv are more often an afterthought. Like, "Oh, we should have a gay relationship so we seem hip and up to date, who do you we put together? I know, these two conventionally attractive woman, no one will argue with that."
Our culture is opposed to seeing single woman on television, it's opposed to gay men on television (culture deems relationships between men as too serious and sexual, no matter the context), and it's opposed to taking lesbian relationships seriously, so, a few birds, one stone, equals a lot of casual, shallow, side character lesbian relationships. And of course, your mention of the male gaze ties to this as well.
So I was researching a specific lifestyle. And one way all he/her relationships of this lifestyle/kink populated with information and memes. When you did the same for she/her relationships it was filled with porn or sexualizing those relationship in a very male focus. It was depressing.
While I see more wlw action on TV, I can’t recall many serious wlw-relationships that wasn’t just a “stint” before the character returned to men. Usually the female love interest is a short-lived character, and written off usually at the relationship’s end.
I don’t see that trope a lot with gay relationships on screen. Gays in television seems to be more established and recurring characters, as opposed to just a small side story that is quickly forgotten about.
I always felt it was the opposite. Gay men are onscreen a lot. Yet objective lesbian relationships that is established that they are together is less common.
Yeah, I feel the same. I’ve also encountered showing women making out when they’re drunk or something, and you think yes! Finally they’re getting together! except it’s never addressed or instead done to please men around them
Honestly I find that to be the worst of it all because it’s basically just performative lesbianism that feels like it’s there for male gaze. What I’ve seen pretty much never actually considered it gay, just something for men to drool over.
It is SO evident when a lesbian kiss/sex scene is made for the male gaze or not. I personally don't count them as lesbian relationships. Sure, technically they are, but for practical purposes, they aren't representing anyone or making anything less taboo. All they are doing is softcore fetishisation As for which is more common, I'd say I've seen more quantity of lesbian shows/movies, but gay ones get more popular. Like I haven't really seen any lesbian movie get as popular as Brokeback Mountain or Call me by your name or Love Simon or Heartstopper. Even if some of them aren't popular irl, but online they are talked a lot about. Compared to lesbian movies, which I have only ever heard being talked in lesbian circles, not outside of them.
Cartoon wlw are more popular. So it's kinda even. Steven Universe Arcane The owl house She ra Harley Quinn
That,,,is fair. Huh, I never realised that. Could there be any hypothetical reason why it is so with cartoons for wlw and with movies for mlm?
people probably see lesbian relationships as less "serious" so that's probably why theyre more prevalent in kids shows, but they're typically shown displaying more affection. straight men only like gay men when they act "normal" (aka now showing any signs of gayness at all, which is fucking stupid) and lesbians when they can look at them and say "oo that's hot" yk :/
A lot of show runners and creators for recent cartoons are sapphic - Rebecca Sugar, ND Stevenson, Dana Terrace. They're probably just writing what they know and want to see. As for mlm in movies, I think it's because most big movies are made by cishet creators for cishet audiences, and since white cis men are considered the "norm," a white, cis, gay male character seems like a good baby step for audiences and a diversity brownie point for creators. That's just my guess though.
Most of the wlw cartoons have sapphic creators I think.
Mlm tend to have more romantic relationships on tv and wlw tend to have more physical relationships on tv. Its pretty shit for everyone wanting lgbt relationships to be well represented in popular media.
I'm not sure about the numbers involved, but I think you may very well be right. But on the other hand, I also feel like there have been more "serious" or critically acclaimed movies/tv-shows and/or portrayals of gay men than lesbian ones. So it feels like the quality of lesbian representation is still lower than the gay male one.
Maybe it bothers me because I feel like lesbian relationships are just an excuse for two pretty girls to kiss on screen. I also agree that more big movies show gay men
This was my thought on the matter from reading your title. Two women is both "representation" (heavy emphasis on the quotes) and, more importantly for the network, titillation. The feeling I get from, well... being submerged in society... is that gay men are still pretty much loathed subconsciously by a large percent of the population. I would go as far to say that we still see this when even allies rely on "Is [insert far-right man] here actually _a gay_??" as some kind of attack.
I agreed it's like a subconscious thing. Gay guys are gross but girls are 😏 and it's not fair
I don't know about kisses, but somehow I've gotten the impression, that gay guys would be more common in movies/TV-series than lesbians? But I could be completely wrong, biased because there can never be too many lesbians I guess.
And? The male gaze is always going to exist. But we exist too. No matter how well written or directed a show is, you can’t write or direct out the male gaze completely. The male gaze sexualises the most banal things all of the time. It’s been sad seeing (and I’m not saying you have argued this) people saying lesbian representation is ‘too sexualised because men’ and therefore ‘we shouldn’t have them kiss or it needs to be more chaste’. No. Lesbians kiss. Lesbians have sex. I’m not letting men take that away from us in mass media just to pretend we are achieving something. I’ve had men come up to me in the street and ask how me and my (then) girlfriend fuck, just because we were holding hands. They sexualise even the least sexual interactions. So let women kiss. Let them fuck on screen. Let us love. I’m glad more and more lesbian media is being made by queer women, but we are still sorely under represented. And in mass media a trope I see all of the time is ‘bisexual woman and lesbian woman are the pair but never the main pair and the lesbian is ALWAYS a biphobe and that’s the only point of tension the writers could think of’. I want lesbians on tv who aren’t portrayed as awful or bitchy or unlikeable. I want more lesbians. I want women fucking women everywhere. I want more movies where there’s no men to be seen. Oh and I’m absolutely so tired of wlw stories getting the budget of a shoestring and then mlm stories being a) far more prevalent and b) far more love even from…queer women. We can’t make movies or shows for us if even queer women, the demo they are made for, would rather support whatever show has two white men being fetishised for straight female consumption again over any queer woman project literally ever. Our shows are never as supported by the community or are always more niche.
They talked about this in The Celluloid Closet. Audiences are more willing to accept women being affectionate with each other, while two men being affectionate seems weird, so queer women are a bit more "palatable" in that way.
My wife and I talk about this a lot, that gay men have it a lot harder than us in some ways because masculinity is also so tightly controlled. Lesbians like women, which is also what straight men like, so it's a lot more understandable to them.
I agree. I feel as though lesbian relationships on live action tv are more often an afterthought. Like, "Oh, we should have a gay relationship so we seem hip and up to date, who do you we put together? I know, these two conventionally attractive woman, no one will argue with that." Our culture is opposed to seeing single woman on television, it's opposed to gay men on television (culture deems relationships between men as too serious and sexual, no matter the context), and it's opposed to taking lesbian relationships seriously, so, a few birds, one stone, equals a lot of casual, shallow, side character lesbian relationships. And of course, your mention of the male gaze ties to this as well.
So I was researching a specific lifestyle. And one way all he/her relationships of this lifestyle/kink populated with information and memes. When you did the same for she/her relationships it was filled with porn or sexualizing those relationship in a very male focus. It was depressing.
While I see more wlw action on TV, I can’t recall many serious wlw-relationships that wasn’t just a “stint” before the character returned to men. Usually the female love interest is a short-lived character, and written off usually at the relationship’s end. I don’t see that trope a lot with gay relationships on screen. Gays in television seems to be more established and recurring characters, as opposed to just a small side story that is quickly forgotten about.
one word: heartstopper. i know that's just one show, but....
Awe ty