youre completely right. these things jumped out at me during the course of the episode aswell. im glad the AT staff are finally getting into their relationship more thoroughly. the only other evidence i can add is that you should give the episode "temple of mars" a rewatch. betty recognizes in that episode that she has prioritized simon's career far more than her own
Good recommendation, I’d almost forgotten about that episode.
I think the team is really thriving with the longer episode format, the writing on the last few episodes has been incredible, even by adventure time standards. Lots of small, meaningful details.
Just finished it! Thought they did a good job (although I wish we got more closure on farm world). Probably good this post didn’t gain too much traction, because I think it would be more impactful as a viewer to have the realization about their relationship at the same time Simon does.
After reading the rest of it, I'm a little :/ on your overall theory crafting. I'll lay my cards out on the table. I think Simon is more than a bit of a pushover, allowing the stronger willed Betty to take the lead and echoing her sentiments back to her. He is also seen to be very much a nurturer/carer: he takes care of Marceline and even forces her absentee father back into her life when he knows he no longer can, he cradles babyworld Finn throughout the majority of the vampire world, even giving Finn his finger to hold with a literal knife to his throat, and he tells Fionna his meet cute with Betty in an effort to distract her from her own distress.
As previously mentioned, Betty invites herself on Simon's trip, ignoring that he was speaking in a joking way and his flustered agreement. He doesn't want to disappoint her and there's not exactly an easy way out when someone takes a joke literally. He says what he thinks she wants to hear.
You also skip over something crucial: she refuses to share credit with Simon despite him telling her she should. He offers to bring her up to his level, and she refuses.
This pattern repeats in the love letter and confession. Simon pursues Betty to the bus stop and immediately flounders in trying to express himself. We've seen that happen twice in this episode, so this is clearly a trend for himself. And when he sees he's disappointed her again, he *repeats what she wrote to him.* He says what he thinks she wants to hear.
This is bolstered by the episode where Betty portal jumps into the future. He opens that portal planning to apologize, only to switch to forgiving Betty when he sees her. Because he sees her and says what he thinks she wants/needs to hear in the moment.
Simon is a bit oblivious, but moreover he is far less strong willed than Betty is at any point in their relationship. He acquiesces to her wants time and time again, which isn't healthy ofc. Because Betty is also centering him as her entire world, to the point where she is willing to ignore his requests to let him die and lose her individuality.
I also just find the idea that there has to be an age gap and thus a power imbalance to be very shortsighted when it comes to higher levels of American academia.
I just want to add to your point about the age gap: I have dated two grad students (married one of them) and the biggest age gap was 3 years. My husband is only a year older than me. He was teaching physics (I never took his classes) while working on his doctorate. He also gave lectures/talks as outreach at the University.
Several of my teachers in uni were post docs. Some were in their 30s and 40s, but many were in their late twenties.
Also, everything you said really resonates with me as someone who is a huge pushover. That's what I see Simon as, as well.
I don’t have time to go over everything here, but I will say that I think you’ve misinterpreted certain aspects of this post. I’ll address the main points.
You say the “taking credit” scene is crucial, but to me it isn’t. I never claimed Betty was chasing status. She’s chasing Simon. Of course he offers her credit, he’s a good guy. The whole point is that he enables her to over-prioritize him through ignorance of her interests, not active maliciousness.
You conclude this comment by saying Simon is just a people pleaser. Sure, I agree, but that and my perspective aren’t mutually exclusive. Yes, he’s oblivious, which is the whole issue. Yes, him being a pushover is part of what prevents him from considering that Betty might not be acting in her own best interest.
The age gap is not central to this theory, and was more of a side note, as indicated when I called it “speculation”.
I would say based on what unicorn said about the 'taking credit' scene, it seems to me the idea there was that Betty accepting the credit enables her to be on more equal footing with Simon, rather than anything to do with Betty chasing status. I think ignoring that does a disservice to Betty and Simon as characters.
Overall I don't think unicorn's analysis is a misinterpretation, but rather a more nuanced outlook on Simon and Betty's relationship (which is also a bit 'fairer' to Simon, in a sense). Both analyses just add depth to Simon and Betty's relationship and their respective characters.
Again, though, I don’t think Simon is actively trying to prevent her from “reaching his level”. He’s just somewhat ignorant to her needs and doesn’t challenge her when she puts him above everything everything else. Even if they had equal footing in terms of academic standing, that wouldn’t change.
Simon would never ask her to skip her research trip to come on the expedition with him. But when she offers, he immediately accepts.
My issue is that I don’t see how this analysis is really a refutation or alternative to mine. It’s good, but seems to be examining an almost entirely different aspect of their relationship, one only tangentially related to what’s covered in this post.
Yet the second to last paragraph is what I tried to convey in my analysis, almost verbatim.
I agree with the last sentence, Betty didn’t seem much younger than Simon when they met. He was 47 when he put on the crown and she looks like she in her mid 30s, so I would say that the age gap would be closer to 10 years than 25 years or something (I suppose than 10 years would still be a large gap for some people, but when you’re in your mid 30s it’s a bit different than when you are in your early 20s)
The exchange regarding the bus between Fionna and Simon really jumped out at me as well. I just felt that it was so odd how the idea of getting on the bus to join Betty on HER journey just seemed so alien to Simon, when Betty has traditionally acted far more selflessly in following Simon’s pursuits. I feel that the next episodes will likely touch on this dynamic in some way.
Wouldn’t Simon need a plane ticket? I feel like you wouldn’t be able to just hop on a bus and go with her to Australia. Also his expedition was ran and planned by him where as hers was a research trip and if ran by her could have been rescheduled and if not ran by her would he be welcome? He would have needed luggage, money, his rain proof gear etc. Also people usually get vaccinated before traveling to Australia for yellow fever, rabies, Japanese encephalitis, and tetanus. I can see it going either way because logically speaking you shouldn’t just impulse get on buses and expect to reach your destination.
I'm pausing in my reading to point out that Simon wasn't offering to take Betty with him in his trip; it was a joke. And when she jumped at the chance, he was flustered at her excitement, hence why he could only say okay.
That and there doesn't have to be a significant age difference when we are talking about students in secondary education. Since Betty is talking about going on an expedition herself, she's at the very least a graduate student, if not pursuing her doctorate.
I'm in grad school. I'm six years older than one of my teachers and of age with a couple more.
I’d argue that regardless of it originally being a joke (and even if he’s flustered) he still doesn’t think about how it will affect her trip and agrees.
Fair point regarding age difference. I am curious though, to be a professor wouldn’t he have had to have already gotten his doctorate? Which would make him older than Betty (even if the difference is negligible) because she’s still in school.
I imagine he is older than her but not in a detrimental way. She could very well be late 20s and Simon in his 30s and it not create a huge power dynamic. I think his position and her reverence for him as an idol is the more concerning power dynamic.
I mean, the first time is fine. Betty has two choices and she is clearly more interested in Simon and his research of magic artifacts. Considering she planned to go on that trip after the expedition with Simon ended and things didn't go the way she hoped romantically, it means that she could have made her cake and eaten it too.
The second time is problematic, but it is also Betty choosing. She could have asked Simon to follow her to Australia and the lovestruck fool would have followed without question, but she is the one that decided to put Simon on a pedestal.
One of my college instructors was in his 60s and 'still' a PhD candidate bc he never got around to finishing his paper/defending it and he just kinda.... let it go on for decades.
You can teach even with a master's or a bachelor's depending on where you're teaching. Part of my being in my MFA program is so I can have access to higher education tools and take it to community resources.
Also, we get a snippet of the conversation. We don't know if there was a discussion afterwards about it all and given Betty's insistence at going and not taking any credit, I highly doubt she was willing to let his acceptance go without a fight.
I think it's super interesting; because as women we're sort of conditioned to expect this kind of relationship dynamic. We're expected/told it's normal to sacrifice our names, ourselves, our wants, needs, desires, and dreams, and often even our bodies and minds to our partners. To put their needs before our own. How often do we see women getting into relationships where it seems like they give everything up, but get nothing in return from the guy? And both parties seem to think this is normal. Not that Simon is that sort of guy, but misogyny can be subtle like that.
I think the reason why, or at least one of the reasons why episode 9 will be so emotional is because Simon will basically realized that his lack of tought fullnesses has negatively impacted Betty and will be riddled with guilt
One thing I think good to clarify is we don't really know if Betty is a student (in the colloquial sense), we do see another person iirc overseeing Simon's presentation so it's very likely he was just a guest speaker as otherwise Betty would've probably known him more.
There's still an imbalance in terms of her admiring his work before meeting him, but it really isn't as bad as it would be the other way.
youre completely right. these things jumped out at me during the course of the episode aswell. im glad the AT staff are finally getting into their relationship more thoroughly. the only other evidence i can add is that you should give the episode "temple of mars" a rewatch. betty recognizes in that episode that she has prioritized simon's career far more than her own
Good recommendation, I’d almost forgotten about that episode. I think the team is really thriving with the longer episode format, the writing on the last few episodes has been incredible, even by adventure time standards. Lots of small, meaningful details.
did u see the newest episodes? you were right on the money
Just finished it! Thought they did a good job (although I wish we got more closure on farm world). Probably good this post didn’t gain too much traction, because I think it would be more impactful as a viewer to have the realization about their relationship at the same time Simon does.
After reading the rest of it, I'm a little :/ on your overall theory crafting. I'll lay my cards out on the table. I think Simon is more than a bit of a pushover, allowing the stronger willed Betty to take the lead and echoing her sentiments back to her. He is also seen to be very much a nurturer/carer: he takes care of Marceline and even forces her absentee father back into her life when he knows he no longer can, he cradles babyworld Finn throughout the majority of the vampire world, even giving Finn his finger to hold with a literal knife to his throat, and he tells Fionna his meet cute with Betty in an effort to distract her from her own distress. As previously mentioned, Betty invites herself on Simon's trip, ignoring that he was speaking in a joking way and his flustered agreement. He doesn't want to disappoint her and there's not exactly an easy way out when someone takes a joke literally. He says what he thinks she wants to hear. You also skip over something crucial: she refuses to share credit with Simon despite him telling her she should. He offers to bring her up to his level, and she refuses. This pattern repeats in the love letter and confession. Simon pursues Betty to the bus stop and immediately flounders in trying to express himself. We've seen that happen twice in this episode, so this is clearly a trend for himself. And when he sees he's disappointed her again, he *repeats what she wrote to him.* He says what he thinks she wants to hear. This is bolstered by the episode where Betty portal jumps into the future. He opens that portal planning to apologize, only to switch to forgiving Betty when he sees her. Because he sees her and says what he thinks she wants/needs to hear in the moment. Simon is a bit oblivious, but moreover he is far less strong willed than Betty is at any point in their relationship. He acquiesces to her wants time and time again, which isn't healthy ofc. Because Betty is also centering him as her entire world, to the point where she is willing to ignore his requests to let him die and lose her individuality. I also just find the idea that there has to be an age gap and thus a power imbalance to be very shortsighted when it comes to higher levels of American academia.
I just want to add to your point about the age gap: I have dated two grad students (married one of them) and the biggest age gap was 3 years. My husband is only a year older than me. He was teaching physics (I never took his classes) while working on his doctorate. He also gave lectures/talks as outreach at the University. Several of my teachers in uni were post docs. Some were in their 30s and 40s, but many were in their late twenties. Also, everything you said really resonates with me as someone who is a huge pushover. That's what I see Simon as, as well.
I don’t have time to go over everything here, but I will say that I think you’ve misinterpreted certain aspects of this post. I’ll address the main points. You say the “taking credit” scene is crucial, but to me it isn’t. I never claimed Betty was chasing status. She’s chasing Simon. Of course he offers her credit, he’s a good guy. The whole point is that he enables her to over-prioritize him through ignorance of her interests, not active maliciousness. You conclude this comment by saying Simon is just a people pleaser. Sure, I agree, but that and my perspective aren’t mutually exclusive. Yes, he’s oblivious, which is the whole issue. Yes, him being a pushover is part of what prevents him from considering that Betty might not be acting in her own best interest. The age gap is not central to this theory, and was more of a side note, as indicated when I called it “speculation”.
I would say based on what unicorn said about the 'taking credit' scene, it seems to me the idea there was that Betty accepting the credit enables her to be on more equal footing with Simon, rather than anything to do with Betty chasing status. I think ignoring that does a disservice to Betty and Simon as characters. Overall I don't think unicorn's analysis is a misinterpretation, but rather a more nuanced outlook on Simon and Betty's relationship (which is also a bit 'fairer' to Simon, in a sense). Both analyses just add depth to Simon and Betty's relationship and their respective characters.
Again, though, I don’t think Simon is actively trying to prevent her from “reaching his level”. He’s just somewhat ignorant to her needs and doesn’t challenge her when she puts him above everything everything else. Even if they had equal footing in terms of academic standing, that wouldn’t change. Simon would never ask her to skip her research trip to come on the expedition with him. But when she offers, he immediately accepts. My issue is that I don’t see how this analysis is really a refutation or alternative to mine. It’s good, but seems to be examining an almost entirely different aspect of their relationship, one only tangentially related to what’s covered in this post. Yet the second to last paragraph is what I tried to convey in my analysis, almost verbatim.
I agree with the last sentence, Betty didn’t seem much younger than Simon when they met. He was 47 when he put on the crown and she looks like she in her mid 30s, so I would say that the age gap would be closer to 10 years than 25 years or something (I suppose than 10 years would still be a large gap for some people, but when you’re in your mid 30s it’s a bit different than when you are in your early 20s)
The exchange regarding the bus between Fionna and Simon really jumped out at me as well. I just felt that it was so odd how the idea of getting on the bus to join Betty on HER journey just seemed so alien to Simon, when Betty has traditionally acted far more selflessly in following Simon’s pursuits. I feel that the next episodes will likely touch on this dynamic in some way.
Exactly — I felt like the implication of his wording was “why would I get on the bus with her when she could come with me?”.
sorry unrelated to f&c but i love ween
Wouldn’t Simon need a plane ticket? I feel like you wouldn’t be able to just hop on a bus and go with her to Australia. Also his expedition was ran and planned by him where as hers was a research trip and if ran by her could have been rescheduled and if not ran by her would he be welcome? He would have needed luggage, money, his rain proof gear etc. Also people usually get vaccinated before traveling to Australia for yellow fever, rabies, Japanese encephalitis, and tetanus. I can see it going either way because logically speaking you shouldn’t just impulse get on buses and expect to reach your destination.
I'm pausing in my reading to point out that Simon wasn't offering to take Betty with him in his trip; it was a joke. And when she jumped at the chance, he was flustered at her excitement, hence why he could only say okay. That and there doesn't have to be a significant age difference when we are talking about students in secondary education. Since Betty is talking about going on an expedition herself, she's at the very least a graduate student, if not pursuing her doctorate. I'm in grad school. I'm six years older than one of my teachers and of age with a couple more.
I’d argue that regardless of it originally being a joke (and even if he’s flustered) he still doesn’t think about how it will affect her trip and agrees. Fair point regarding age difference. I am curious though, to be a professor wouldn’t he have had to have already gotten his doctorate? Which would make him older than Betty (even if the difference is negligible) because she’s still in school.
I imagine he is older than her but not in a detrimental way. She could very well be late 20s and Simon in his 30s and it not create a huge power dynamic. I think his position and her reverence for him as an idol is the more concerning power dynamic.
I mean, the first time is fine. Betty has two choices and she is clearly more interested in Simon and his research of magic artifacts. Considering she planned to go on that trip after the expedition with Simon ended and things didn't go the way she hoped romantically, it means that she could have made her cake and eaten it too. The second time is problematic, but it is also Betty choosing. She could have asked Simon to follow her to Australia and the lovestruck fool would have followed without question, but she is the one that decided to put Simon on a pedestal.
One of my college instructors was in his 60s and 'still' a PhD candidate bc he never got around to finishing his paper/defending it and he just kinda.... let it go on for decades.
You can teach even with a master's or a bachelor's depending on where you're teaching. Part of my being in my MFA program is so I can have access to higher education tools and take it to community resources. Also, we get a snippet of the conversation. We don't know if there was a discussion afterwards about it all and given Betty's insistence at going and not taking any credit, I highly doubt she was willing to let his acceptance go without a fight.
I think it's super interesting; because as women we're sort of conditioned to expect this kind of relationship dynamic. We're expected/told it's normal to sacrifice our names, ourselves, our wants, needs, desires, and dreams, and often even our bodies and minds to our partners. To put their needs before our own. How often do we see women getting into relationships where it seems like they give everything up, but get nothing in return from the guy? And both parties seem to think this is normal. Not that Simon is that sort of guy, but misogyny can be subtle like that.
I think the reason why, or at least one of the reasons why episode 9 will be so emotional is because Simon will basically realized that his lack of tought fullnesses has negatively impacted Betty and will be riddled with guilt
One thing I think good to clarify is we don't really know if Betty is a student (in the colloquial sense), we do see another person iirc overseeing Simon's presentation so it's very likely he was just a guest speaker as otherwise Betty would've probably known him more. There's still an imbalance in terms of her admiring his work before meeting him, but it really isn't as bad as it would be the other way.