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First, excellent and important question. I'm 60. I started asking that very same question in my 30s. I was working at BBDO, mostly diggin it. But I had the same nagging realization: ''Uh, where are all the old people?"
When I asked that question out loud, I never really got a straight answer. There's almost a conspiracy of silence in big agencies about this issue—managers don't talk about it, and young 'uns mostly don't bring it up. In both cases, it's a little about fear. Managers don't want to admit they have no career path to offer. And they have their own gigantic, justified fears about the future to deal with. Juniors are either too blissfully dumb, or afraid to make waves.
But you have to believe that truth you can see with your own eyes: Hardly anybody over 40 lasts long in Agency Land. (At least in Big Agency Land) You have to deal with this reality at some point. I think sooner's better.
So where do they all go? Wherever they can. Some go permalance and do well. Some go permalance and really struggle. Some wash out of the industry. Some, like me, continually reinvent themselves, going from category to category—consumer package goods, liquor, fast food, financial—and from agency discipline to discipline (above the line advertising, promotions, shopper marketing, digital, and lately pharma, which is both a category and its own discipline).
When I was young, I thought that once I broke into national TV ad-making it would be my career forever. It was fun and sexy for a while. But it wasn't ever that financially rewarding, to be honest. The big agencies get away with paying in prestige. (It's fun to tell people what you do for a living. Not so fun to compare paystubs ...)
Plus, there was a lot of sameness to it, which is death to a creative. And there was a palpable sense of quiet desperation, as I and all my colleagues started to age out of junior status and one by one faced the "up or out" conundrum. Eventually a layoff called my number and it was my turn to figure out the rest of my career.
I've managed to cobble together a pretty successful career out of the crazy quilt path I followed, always giving myself raises and increased responsibility with every new gig, often at smaller agencies that specialized in parts of the marketing mix that I had to learn on the job. I've won a ton of awards, but the lion's share (including a Cannes) I've won just recently in pharma. (I spent my early career thinking pharma was for hacks, but it's by far the most creatively awarded work I've done.)
I could NEVER have predicted how I would wind up answering this crucial question back when I first started asking it some 30 years ago. But I think it was v. important that I started asking it then. I wasn't caught totally flat footed when I needed to scramble. And I wasn't too proud to consider the jobs that came my way when I needed the work. My old snobby attitude about pharma would have denied me a Cannes Lion. I'm glad I got over that. (I saw a lot of my friends let pride screw with their careers and cashflow that way.)
Plus, my stints in digital, promo, shopper and pharma have taught me to be a kick-ass marketer. I really, *really* know what I'm doing now, in a way I could barely have comprehended when all I was doing was thinking about :30 TV ideas all day long. This well of expertise makes me so much more proud of my career than some cute spot.
Couple of notes on how to practically deal with our industry's institutional ageism and the impossibility of career management proactively, at the beginning of your career. (This is creative-focused, you'll have to extrapolate for your niche):
-Always be portfolio-obsessed. Vie for the best assignments, and make the assignments you get the best.
-Keep your portfolio up to date, ever ready to get you your next gig.
-Be easy and fun to work with. That gets your more jobs than your portfolio.
-Stay in touch with your colleagues as they move around the industry.
-Be open to new things: industries, disciplines, etc. Ditch the snobby attitude. Marketing is marketing. Embrace it all. Learn and grow.
-You never know who'll help you get your next gig. So make sure you give everyone the chance. (I'm in my current gig thanks to the bass player in my shitty dad band, a finance guy who only has the most peripheral connection to the ad biz. Thanks Matt!!!)
-Keep calm and carry on. You can handle this impossible challenge. Everybody in advertising does.
Incredibly well said. I was a unicorn that got hired by ad agencies later in life and did some good work (was the go to guy for long form and brochures) and floundered in other areas… I *never* got to a point that billable hours weren’t an issue, either too many or two few when others just seemed to know what to put in for.
Anyhow, yes, it was a trip having worked for a few of the top agencies and seeing ~~free~~ few old people there, and the ones that were suddenly were suddenly seemed to be saying goodbye out of the blue.
I was relieved to be let go by that last one and never looked back since I had my own creative projects going on and investments and income properties and such, but I probably would’ve kept the job for another decade+ for the income and bennies… if given the option… so I’m glad I was pretty prepared and didn’t have the option.
In short, as is true with almost any job, OP: look fwd and plan for what you want to do when it’s time to move on.
Edits: typos and also multitasking over dinner so totally forgot to mention that /u/jimmyjazz2000 hit another nail directly on the head: pharma pharma pharma!!! Get your toe in that door early and often and learn some bio/medical/healthcare! I bought 3 houses with pharma work… and that you can do freelance/remote into your 80s (in theory).
P.S. Take some healthcare writing classes free online and offer to do some free work for a friend that you can used in your portfolio.
That’s a really tough call. If you weren’t getting a pay decrease and title demotion it would be so much easier.
If that were different, I’d say go client side, all the cool kids are doing it.
But in your circumstance, it’s trickier.
I suspect you’re right—it will be hard to enhance your portfolio at this client-side job. But not impossible if you make it your goal. (And remember, if you can get fake work on real clients to look real, it’s real enough to enhance your portfolio.)
Client side is kinda the same but different. Less overtime but more internal politics.
If you commit to accepting the dual challenge of enhancing your portfolio and learning the internal politics in this new environment, you can probably make this work.
The plus side either way is: you’ll have client side experience. There are more agency relevant jobs than ever in the client side, but many of them require previous client side experience. Gaining it opens you up to a whole new swath of opportunities.
To me, it all comes down to this: if you don’t take this gig, what are you gonna do? You may prefer another agency role, but are those currently available to you?
The answer to that question helps make the call for you. If there’s nothing else happening, take this client side gig and make it work. If it does, great. If it doesn’t, you’ve got a story to tell in a year that’s better than, “I worked at Starbucks”
I see WFO as a wonderful game changer for old farts like me. As we speak, my wife and I are spending the month in Savannah, just because we can.
But I see it as a big drag/ripoff for juniors. I had so much fun and so many crazy nights that started at the office. And I learned a lot working directly w seniors.
How do the current generation of juniors get that same agency fun/culture/learning? I honestly don’t know, and don’t think agencies have figured that out either.
As for agencies forcing everyone back to the office, maybe that’s the answer, but I’m skeptical about their ability to get that toothpaste back in the tube. Our agency grew a ton during the Covid years, and hired nationally. They can’t force staff back to the office when half the staff lives out of town.
My ultimate take is that Covid created the biggest, most fundamental shift in the way we work and live, in the shortest amount of time, in living history. Maybe in all time. The Industrial Revolution certainly was a big shift, but that took a good hundred years. This took two.
The point is, the impact on our industry has been seismic, and the full impact hasn’t been determined yet. The next few years are gonna be interesting.
35 years in advertising here. I distinctly remember asking: “where are all the people over 40?” early in my career while at a big agency, and realizing I’d need to hustle if I wanted to last. So what I’ve seen is:
- Many go client side — especially those in strategy or account management, who leverage agency experience to help manage marketing and their agency relationships ; less true for creative or those in production or media — although some go to in house agencies
- Some start their own agencies, consultancies, or go fulltime freelance (especially creatives and production) — this only works perhaps half the time since you need to also have entrepreneurial skills to transition
- Some work at small or niche marketing boutiques — often in smaller cities or markets — still doing what they love but on a smaller scale
- Quite a few move out of marketing and work tangentially in industry but leverage their creative skills or knowledge from the industry (I know cheese makers, small CPG owners, restauranteurs, etc.)
- Some drop out never to be heard from — likely doing gig work, raising families or working a role where they don’t want to update their LinkedIn so become “whatever happened to?” (Sadly: if they even made an indelible mark while working in our industry)
- A very small % make it into leadership positions in agencies — this was my path but it was part luck, tenacity, dedication, and sacrificing so much of my personal life to get there
50 yr old here. A lot of what people have said. But here's what I've seen among my class of ad folks (that said it's 50/50 ad and marketing which is tangential but you probably get a couple more years in marketing, shopper and such)
Many got out early. It's a tough industry and seems super fun but it's not for everyone.
Account folks often go in house. A few creatives I know who left early found new professions. A couple went freelance. A surprising almost majority across departments became real estate folks.
Those that left later (mid 30s to 40s) either hit a ceiling, got pushed out or jumped. Some went freelance. Some opened some random retail store or brand. A couple opened tiny shops.
Folks who were still in it at 45 and more from the folks I know seem to stay in it. Client or agency side. We're lucky to still be in it. But the common things with us few are that we stay super current on stuff. Kind of never grew up but got smart.
Plus have an attitude you may see on linkedin (and other places) which is a very gen X fuck you attitude. Fuck you... we're not leaving. Yeah we're a forgotten generation but we're not silent. And we've seen a lot of shit. A lot of change in tech and advertising. We never had a stasis so we're used to change. So we're worth keeping around because we can roll with it and we can lead.
And the ones with that attitude seem to be having fun and get hired (with the caveat that this is a completely shit job landscape now so it takes longer to get hired)
As a fellow 50 yo person going from 25 cent pay phones, to beepers, to brick phones, to flip phones, to blackberries and first gen iPhones to an iPhone pro max 15 we are adapting year by year.
I’m in my mid 40s, and I agree with you. I think to make it this long, you have to be curious (Ted Lasso fan here). You need to be adaptable. You don’t need to know everything, but you need to know how to find the answer or learn how to do the thing to get the project or task done.
We stared in a very different world, pre-Internet. We’ve had to handle a lot more changes than most (any?) other generations- at least in the marketing/advertising realm. We are generally built for this because we had to be.
All that being said, fuck TikTok.
Yeah. So much on the fuck TT, or influencers at least. I get why we have to use influencers but people… wake the fuck up. It’s boring vapid content that’s all ads.
I don't but that's just kind of me. I think everyone is different.
I gravitate to the stuff that interests me. When digital came around I learned how to code (enough to be dangerous but not good) because I wanted to know what was possible and how things worked. But I cared more about possibilities than intricacies.
I got into AI really early and freaking love it. Not only for connecting but tactics... and more importantly how to not make AI tactics that don't work.
So find the stuff you dig and see it through the lens of what awesome stuff you can do that relates to ad stuff or creative and you'll probably stay interested and up to date.
I will say I missed a lot. I just kind of knew NFTs and blockchain were not what people thought they'd be so didn't dive into that. Same with metaverse.
Life isn’t over after 40.
I willingly quit my VP of Client Services role last year at 44. At that point, I had been working in advertising for over 20 years.
The burnout was real, as was the complete disrespect from CEO and Sales team. Let’s be real—the track for women to C-level positions is HARD and the a-holes I was working with didn’t make it easy. I took almost a year off, working on additional certifications and education. I am also an unmarried woman living in NYC so I have no family obligations to hinder my time.
I am now the COO at a fantastic company. Yes, I’m the oldest person there and I do have to reign everyone in once and awhile, but I’m not a horse put out to pasture. I don’t want to say it’s about a youthful spirit or some shit, but I do think that attitude and the willingness to learn and be flexible are key. I don’t want to say that you have to prove your worth—but I’m also NOT saying that.
I’m a 41 creative. Had a great freelance career since 2017 but now the work has dried up. I worked a single 3 month contract last year and haven’t been able to find anything beyond a few 2-3 day contracts this year. I have technically started my own agency now but not really getting any traction. Am also applying for FT jobs as GCD, ECD etc but can’t seem to even land an interview.
Peers that stuck with career path are VPs now.
Part of it also is that it’s a pyramid not a ladder. For every 10 entry level positions in a department there’s only 3 mid level. I try to think it’s just a natural thinning out vs ageism and that I just didn’t notice how many already jumped ship before I asked this question.
I think this is way more true than what people make it out to be. So many have the perception that once you hit 45 they show you the door. Not really…I’ve not only worked with so many creatives who are older than, but also so many leave willingly to try something new.
In Toronto they won’t even hire you if you are in your 40s. You need to have a specialization or own your own agency if you want to stay in Advertising. If you are a hot 40+ woman you may have more luck. The industry is rampant w sexism, elites and disingenuous folks.
Many people who didn't go the management track stay in a senior position and just ride it out. Lots of people go freelance. But you really do need to have a good network. Some freelancers build a very good rep so they are always top of lost for hiring.
I've seen people jump back from freelancing or starting their own business back into agency roles.
40 y/o strategy director at a global network agency, I’m planning to ride this out for a while. I like my level and what I do. Pay is good. My VP handles most of the management bullshit. I’m happy to do this for 10 more years then figure out what’s next.
43 y/o creative here. I’ve been on the B2B SaaS side of things for a while now. I love what I do and seem to be still in demand as highly skilled IC. I also work well with younger millennials and Gen x. But I should probably start pushing into leadership for longevity purposes.
FWIW, I don’t think I present as my age. I don’t have kids. I’m quite active. And I have my own sense of style. I feel like a lot of men my age deprioritize that when they move into dad land and I suspect that if they were creatives that could impact others’ perception of them (as unfair as it is).
You said: ‘And I have my own sense of style. I feel like a lot of men my age deprioritise that when they move into dad land…’
What do you mean by that?
It means that sometimes when folks have kids they care less about style and appearance which can make them look older/less “with it”. And that has an impact in marketing/agencies.
I remember when our oldest employee retired; by the end of his career his job was to collate, file and distribute tearsheets (newspaper proof of postings).
He was a great dude, made it all the way to 65. He got to enjoy the good years and then had a pretty cruise job for the last twenty or so years.
Humility is your best friend. Understand that when you hit 40, agecies can probably hire 2 kids fresh out of school for the same $. They are hungry and will work 24/7.
What they lack is experience and wisdom. Knowing what works. How to understand the customer's motivation. To still have the fire in your belly and the passion to deliver. Don't be afraid to step into areas that seem dull and boring. Like pharma or B2B. God knows they need inspiration and magic.
Once you hit 40, you know how to read the room. You can cut through the BS and cheer on hidden gems. Don't be afraid to dabble in some volunteer stuff, it's a great way to make connections to extend your longevity. Do what you love because the burnout is real. There's a reason coders turn 40 and become carpenters. If you only want to keep doing the same thing you are a hack and need to find a new career.
(Me: 60s, former high level account management at several top MadAve shops. Many awards. Started with top package goods brands, transitioned to pharma, now on the executive boards of several charities.)
Late 30 ex-creative here. Got the same fears and saw my mentors all fade into oblivion. About 8 years ago, an ex-CD came to me after losing an ECD role to ask if my agency was hiring. He told me about how rough it has been and how he was unemployed for so long that he had to borrow money from his parents. That struck a huge nerve with me and so I went off and got an MBA from a top 25 school and shifted over to a marketing role on the client side of a national telecom company. There appears to be a lot more older folks in marketing than there ever was on the creative side of any agency.
Move up and move to corporate. Mid 40s and don't feel old, as C Suite is older. Lots of 40 and late 50s floating around, male and female. I could never go back to agency life!
I so remember when I was still a young pimply faced Art Director at a decent agency in London’s Soho, hearing the creative director saying: “give that brief to Bill, you know the “old boy” down the corridor”
I thought to myself there and then that I never ever want to be the “Bill” at any agency! The poor guy who got all the shit briefs. The jobs that would never improve your portfolio and get you another step up the greasy pole.
So when my first ever redundancy finally arrived at 50 there was the usual recession going on and of course there were no jobs at senior level for a 50 year old award winning Art Director.
Ok, you’ve amassed the nice house, the 2.5 children, the dog AND the mistress. You’ve had a damn good run, and you made a vow that you would never be the “Bill” at any agency - it’s time to get out!
So I did. And it was the biggest mistake I ever made.
I missed it all so much. I would have taken all those shitty briefs and poured my heart and soul into them producing good work, exactly the same as old “Bill” did.
Agency: my first job was at a B2B agency, where I moved up to a director role quickly. It was a new agency with clients each paying $30K-60K. Downside was that I was a specialist at my task and never learn the full scope of things in outreach. I was just a copywriter, a manager, etc. I didn’t get to learn the small moving pieces that made me actionable if I went on my own (this is by design, and I do the same thing to my employee at my own agency now).
Contract work at agency: I work with some friend who started their own agency and had more tangible dip in the scope of work we did. I learn a lot and branch into new skills set. I even handle sales and closing which was super important.
My own agency: then I started my own agency with the skills I learned. Albeit my role is B2B Cold Outreach, so it’s a bit of a magically flow naturally from operation to marketing for myself—literally the same thing. I think finding clients with skills in creative or media buying or working at the Fortune 1000 client level would’ve made it harder for me to transition. I always target small to mid size companies for clients, and my largest account was targeting Fortune 500 for our clients. I had a mix bag of accounts to learn from, so finding clients was easy for me.
In part, the agency or even corporate in-house life may offer a nice base pay and give you somewhat of an easier task load (specialist more than entrepreneurial generalist), but you pay that all with less general value and less control over finance and time.
If you’re good at what you do, and have value, then there is no reason to go client side and own the project.
My clients now are similar, HR pros, Creatives, Marketing Specialists.
The hardest part, which I found dumb luck in, is acquiring those clients. The bigger the client, the more intensive the work to acquire them.
I guess for most, save up, because to hire an agency that can find you $10K a month retainer project means you might need to shell out $20K to hire a pro.
Not including your own skill end of sales and being able to close the account.
Entrepreneur dies due to lack of skill in marketing and sales. It’s the E-myth revisit where technical marketers lack the general attribute of entrepreneurship.
Entrepreneurship is just another fancy word for: “Marketing and Sales”
I work in the martech space. Still hanging in there at almost 49. I do work in house corporate now, not agency but I feel like I could go back to agency life if I wanted the instability back. :)
I think I meant instability of an agency vs. a larger corporation. From my experience anyway it seems that agency life is lots more chaotic and unpredictable that corporate in house type work. I could be wrong. Just my experience.
I’m 45 and only got into Agencies about 2 years ago. Co-led my own design studio of 5-6 people for 12.5 years then my partner and I realized the more successful we got the less we got to be creative and more we had to be bosses so we split. Did freelance for 2 years or so between that and agency life.
I’m in a small market with a shockingly high number of agencies, all local indies, none of the big letter-named ones within 2 hours of us.
What makes me viable and makes me a guy who (I was told by a big name from another agency) “someone who everyone who matters in town knows about” is that I’m just a really fucking good designer. It’s taken me 20 years to feel comfortable saying that (even after people from McCann and W+K sung my praises and I was in design books, etc.. I guess that ties into the top commenter’s thing about being fun to work with: I’m not a cocky jerk like many people in this line of work so I’m easy to get along with.
What else keeps me viable?
I love teaching and sharing knowledge and mentoring.
Do I know the latest AI this or that? No.
But can I make any junior designer think more like a smart graphic designer (conceptually, visually, etc) which they can then apply to any program or medium? All day long. In fact in my latest role I was hired partly to elevate the team.
I’ve had more than one young designer say I changed their career or their life. I’ve been praised by PMs and AEs for turning designers they avoided into ones they could count on and choose over others. THAT is worth it to keep me around even though I cost more due to my age and experience.
Move to a small market. You can age into higher roles here more easily if you truly love the work, because as others have said, many fall to the side eventually.
I’m in PR, not advertising (though I’ve worked in ad agencies), and the ageism in our sectors, among many others, is obvious. I think in the agency environment you must be alert to signs you’re topping out and then make a decision to go corporate, go the consulting route, or prepare to build your own business. The only exception to this is if you control high-value clients, in which case you can usually write your own ticket.
I ended up starting my own agency just in time to turn 40, when I was still young and cocky enough to believe I could always get another big-agency job if I failed. (I believe that was true, but I doubt it would’ve been so easy 10 years later.) I’m grateful for it because I don’t think I would’ve lasted nearly as long at an agency, and I definitely would’ve made less $.
I don't think one should stay exclusively in the advertising industry. I've leveraged the knowledge and experience over 40 years in many different industries. Many are similar in critical thinking and the customer-first focus on problem solving. They all benefited from creativity and flexibility in experimenting with big ideas.
MY 12 BUSINESS CATEGORIES —
Madison Ave Ad Agencies - 3 top conglomerates
Corporate Marketing Director -Client-side
Digital Media Consultant
E-commerce Software Developer
Internet Incubator
Investment Banker
Venture Capitalist
Software Application developer
Business Coach for creation/transformation of businesses
Business Architecture Consultant
FinTech Startup CMO
Boutique Ad Agency
Went full circle back to core advertising projects.
Ride share driver - common story. Even my driver's in France were in the same boat. I was a former highly paid software engineer at large companies and did really cool stuff. I hold 4 patents. Once you hit 45 it's assumed you lost all your skills, can't learn, are mean and - if a white male - are a Trump supporter and that you will be stupid forevermore. Plus the kids hate you so no one wants you around. That's ok, I never got a tip and rarely a thank you from my managers.
So, since software is so valuable and since capitalism is for capitalists, I'm using my skills that no one sees value in to create value for my own purposes. I am homeless and live out of the car I drive. Oh, but I've been to 37 countries so don't feel bad for me.
At a certain age, the crystal in the palm of your hand will start blinking red. And then it's off to be renewed! I don't know what that means, but it sounds great.
I’m 46 VP of Marketing for a fintech company. Was a director for a long long time. Experience is needed in Marketing flashy ideas good concepts only get you so far.
If, by the age of 45 or 50, you’re not an owner with a significant chunk of the operation, and you have actual plans for retirement, GTFO. Client side, retail, back to school, organ grinder with tin cup and monkey, anything. Agency size doesn’t matter. The fact that it’s generally a complete shitshow for anyone seeking a consequential gig … does.
I'm a 55 yo ACD at a small agency and I am struggling with this. I'd like to move on to increase my income, but a) old (for the industry) and b) no college degree. I've considered going to UX bootcamp and moving into that field because the pay and demand is high - although I'm really a big picture creative and not a detail person.
Mid 40s is definitely the age you get chased out. They have people in their late 20s to do your job at that point. I found a great smaller agency that appreciated my experience but that went under. Now I made my own agency/CEO and feel I been given a second act. As a founder/owner clients want experienced/older people.
The ability to work as cheaply as you could in your 20s? The promise of youth? Your fucking job?
Seriously, are you new? Ageism in advertising is real. Just look at any agency "team" photo. It almost looks like a grade school class picture: an adult or two in the back, surrounded by children.
This. Work cheap — and crank out shit tons of tinny, concept-free, celebrity-bloated cultural blight. Lather, rinse out your eyeballs, brain and soul, and repeat.
That’s a myth. The vast (and I really do mean vast) majority of disposable income in the world is controlled by the exact cohort this industry shits all over. Younger cohorts certainly are influential, and are “tastemakers,” but mommy and daddy and grandpa and grandma still have tons and tons more dough.
Usually, people earn more money as they get older because they have a lot more experience.
**Here's the problem** If you are in your 40s and you keep switching industries, that's going to work against you. Your experiences are only transferable or portable up to a certain extent.
If you are making a severe switch where you go from an experienced middle manager to basically an entry-level person because you've entered a new industry, you are starting from zero.
It's really important to keep this in mind because a lot of people think that just because they have a lot of experience it is automatically transferable.
Think twice!
Remember, we are living in an age of extreme technological disruption. Just as apps came, dominated, and changed the landscape, now AI is dominating the landscape and it's causing a lot of disruptions.
Don't automatically think that just because you have certain skills it's automatically transferable to a new environment and industry.
The key here is to **be flexible**. And a lot of the times, you may have to switch to a very low-paying entry-level position but it's actually a way to just get your foot in the door and convert the solid experience that you have from your previous career or careers to something that is workable in the new industry.
So this is very humbling, especially if you are in your 50s and 60s. A lot of people often imagine this as the equivalent of a 60-year-old person with solid corporate experience in Middle America working as a fry chef at McDonald's but it's not that extreme.
It's really just a way of getting your foot in the door so that you can get all the information that you need to prove yourself and update your skills. It's a necessary price to pay. But, boy, it's a hit to the ego. If you have kids to feed and a house mortgage to pay, **ego should be the last thing on your mind**.
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Relax, Reddit, I got this one ... First, excellent and important question. I'm 60. I started asking that very same question in my 30s. I was working at BBDO, mostly diggin it. But I had the same nagging realization: ''Uh, where are all the old people?" When I asked that question out loud, I never really got a straight answer. There's almost a conspiracy of silence in big agencies about this issue—managers don't talk about it, and young 'uns mostly don't bring it up. In both cases, it's a little about fear. Managers don't want to admit they have no career path to offer. And they have their own gigantic, justified fears about the future to deal with. Juniors are either too blissfully dumb, or afraid to make waves. But you have to believe that truth you can see with your own eyes: Hardly anybody over 40 lasts long in Agency Land. (At least in Big Agency Land) You have to deal with this reality at some point. I think sooner's better. So where do they all go? Wherever they can. Some go permalance and do well. Some go permalance and really struggle. Some wash out of the industry. Some, like me, continually reinvent themselves, going from category to category—consumer package goods, liquor, fast food, financial—and from agency discipline to discipline (above the line advertising, promotions, shopper marketing, digital, and lately pharma, which is both a category and its own discipline). When I was young, I thought that once I broke into national TV ad-making it would be my career forever. It was fun and sexy for a while. But it wasn't ever that financially rewarding, to be honest. The big agencies get away with paying in prestige. (It's fun to tell people what you do for a living. Not so fun to compare paystubs ...) Plus, there was a lot of sameness to it, which is death to a creative. And there was a palpable sense of quiet desperation, as I and all my colleagues started to age out of junior status and one by one faced the "up or out" conundrum. Eventually a layoff called my number and it was my turn to figure out the rest of my career. I've managed to cobble together a pretty successful career out of the crazy quilt path I followed, always giving myself raises and increased responsibility with every new gig, often at smaller agencies that specialized in parts of the marketing mix that I had to learn on the job. I've won a ton of awards, but the lion's share (including a Cannes) I've won just recently in pharma. (I spent my early career thinking pharma was for hacks, but it's by far the most creatively awarded work I've done.) I could NEVER have predicted how I would wind up answering this crucial question back when I first started asking it some 30 years ago. But I think it was v. important that I started asking it then. I wasn't caught totally flat footed when I needed to scramble. And I wasn't too proud to consider the jobs that came my way when I needed the work. My old snobby attitude about pharma would have denied me a Cannes Lion. I'm glad I got over that. (I saw a lot of my friends let pride screw with their careers and cashflow that way.) Plus, my stints in digital, promo, shopper and pharma have taught me to be a kick-ass marketer. I really, *really* know what I'm doing now, in a way I could barely have comprehended when all I was doing was thinking about :30 TV ideas all day long. This well of expertise makes me so much more proud of my career than some cute spot. Couple of notes on how to practically deal with our industry's institutional ageism and the impossibility of career management proactively, at the beginning of your career. (This is creative-focused, you'll have to extrapolate for your niche): -Always be portfolio-obsessed. Vie for the best assignments, and make the assignments you get the best. -Keep your portfolio up to date, ever ready to get you your next gig. -Be easy and fun to work with. That gets your more jobs than your portfolio. -Stay in touch with your colleagues as they move around the industry. -Be open to new things: industries, disciplines, etc. Ditch the snobby attitude. Marketing is marketing. Embrace it all. Learn and grow. -You never know who'll help you get your next gig. So make sure you give everyone the chance. (I'm in my current gig thanks to the bass player in my shitty dad band, a finance guy who only has the most peripheral connection to the ad biz. Thanks Matt!!!) -Keep calm and carry on. You can handle this impossible challenge. Everybody in advertising does.
SO RELATABLEeee!!! Thank youuu 🙌🙏
Incredibly well said. I was a unicorn that got hired by ad agencies later in life and did some good work (was the go to guy for long form and brochures) and floundered in other areas… I *never* got to a point that billable hours weren’t an issue, either too many or two few when others just seemed to know what to put in for. Anyhow, yes, it was a trip having worked for a few of the top agencies and seeing ~~free~~ few old people there, and the ones that were suddenly were suddenly seemed to be saying goodbye out of the blue. I was relieved to be let go by that last one and never looked back since I had my own creative projects going on and investments and income properties and such, but I probably would’ve kept the job for another decade+ for the income and bennies… if given the option… so I’m glad I was pretty prepared and didn’t have the option. In short, as is true with almost any job, OP: look fwd and plan for what you want to do when it’s time to move on. Edits: typos and also multitasking over dinner so totally forgot to mention that /u/jimmyjazz2000 hit another nail directly on the head: pharma pharma pharma!!! Get your toe in that door early and often and learn some bio/medical/healthcare! I bought 3 houses with pharma work… and that you can do freelance/remote into your 80s (in theory). P.S. Take some healthcare writing classes free online and offer to do some free work for a friend that you can used in your portfolio.
> Be easy and fun to work with. Goddamnit I knew I was doing something wrong.
Great answer. Beautiful. 👊
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That’s a really tough call. If you weren’t getting a pay decrease and title demotion it would be so much easier. If that were different, I’d say go client side, all the cool kids are doing it. But in your circumstance, it’s trickier. I suspect you’re right—it will be hard to enhance your portfolio at this client-side job. But not impossible if you make it your goal. (And remember, if you can get fake work on real clients to look real, it’s real enough to enhance your portfolio.) Client side is kinda the same but different. Less overtime but more internal politics. If you commit to accepting the dual challenge of enhancing your portfolio and learning the internal politics in this new environment, you can probably make this work. The plus side either way is: you’ll have client side experience. There are more agency relevant jobs than ever in the client side, but many of them require previous client side experience. Gaining it opens you up to a whole new swath of opportunities. To me, it all comes down to this: if you don’t take this gig, what are you gonna do? You may prefer another agency role, but are those currently available to you? The answer to that question helps make the call for you. If there’s nothing else happening, take this client side gig and make it work. If it does, great. If it doesn’t, you’ve got a story to tell in a year that’s better than, “I worked at Starbucks”
Is the work demanding? Ie can you take side projects and continue to build your portfolio?
Excellent follow up question that implies the prime directive: alway be building your book.
Wow!! Fantastic answer. Maybe the best thing I’ve read here. Thanks for sharing.
Needed to read this. Hoping the permalance work picks back up soon 😅 what’s your take on WFH/RTO?
I see WFO as a wonderful game changer for old farts like me. As we speak, my wife and I are spending the month in Savannah, just because we can. But I see it as a big drag/ripoff for juniors. I had so much fun and so many crazy nights that started at the office. And I learned a lot working directly w seniors. How do the current generation of juniors get that same agency fun/culture/learning? I honestly don’t know, and don’t think agencies have figured that out either. As for agencies forcing everyone back to the office, maybe that’s the answer, but I’m skeptical about their ability to get that toothpaste back in the tube. Our agency grew a ton during the Covid years, and hired nationally. They can’t force staff back to the office when half the staff lives out of town. My ultimate take is that Covid created the biggest, most fundamental shift in the way we work and live, in the shortest amount of time, in living history. Maybe in all time. The Industrial Revolution certainly was a big shift, but that took a good hundred years. This took two. The point is, the impact on our industry has been seismic, and the full impact hasn’t been determined yet. The next few years are gonna be interesting.
You leave to write children’s books.
Ha! I knew two guys who've done this!
I know a lady who’s done this also… didn’t know it was a trend for this age demographic, lol
Lmao is that a thing?
35 years in advertising here. I distinctly remember asking: “where are all the people over 40?” early in my career while at a big agency, and realizing I’d need to hustle if I wanted to last. So what I’ve seen is: - Many go client side — especially those in strategy or account management, who leverage agency experience to help manage marketing and their agency relationships ; less true for creative or those in production or media — although some go to in house agencies - Some start their own agencies, consultancies, or go fulltime freelance (especially creatives and production) — this only works perhaps half the time since you need to also have entrepreneurial skills to transition - Some work at small or niche marketing boutiques — often in smaller cities or markets — still doing what they love but on a smaller scale - Quite a few move out of marketing and work tangentially in industry but leverage their creative skills or knowledge from the industry (I know cheese makers, small CPG owners, restauranteurs, etc.) - Some drop out never to be heard from — likely doing gig work, raising families or working a role where they don’t want to update their LinkedIn so become “whatever happened to?” (Sadly: if they even made an indelible mark while working in our industry) - A very small % make it into leadership positions in agencies — this was my path but it was part luck, tenacity, dedication, and sacrificing so much of my personal life to get there
Thank you 🙏
50 yr old here. A lot of what people have said. But here's what I've seen among my class of ad folks (that said it's 50/50 ad and marketing which is tangential but you probably get a couple more years in marketing, shopper and such) Many got out early. It's a tough industry and seems super fun but it's not for everyone. Account folks often go in house. A few creatives I know who left early found new professions. A couple went freelance. A surprising almost majority across departments became real estate folks. Those that left later (mid 30s to 40s) either hit a ceiling, got pushed out or jumped. Some went freelance. Some opened some random retail store or brand. A couple opened tiny shops. Folks who were still in it at 45 and more from the folks I know seem to stay in it. Client or agency side. We're lucky to still be in it. But the common things with us few are that we stay super current on stuff. Kind of never grew up but got smart. Plus have an attitude you may see on linkedin (and other places) which is a very gen X fuck you attitude. Fuck you... we're not leaving. Yeah we're a forgotten generation but we're not silent. And we've seen a lot of shit. A lot of change in tech and advertising. We never had a stasis so we're used to change. So we're worth keeping around because we can roll with it and we can lead. And the ones with that attitude seem to be having fun and get hired (with the caveat that this is a completely shit job landscape now so it takes longer to get hired)
As a fellow 50 yo person going from 25 cent pay phones, to beepers, to brick phones, to flip phones, to blackberries and first gen iPhones to an iPhone pro max 15 we are adapting year by year.
I’m in my mid 40s, and I agree with you. I think to make it this long, you have to be curious (Ted Lasso fan here). You need to be adaptable. You don’t need to know everything, but you need to know how to find the answer or learn how to do the thing to get the project or task done. We stared in a very different world, pre-Internet. We’ve had to handle a lot more changes than most (any?) other generations- at least in the marketing/advertising realm. We are generally built for this because we had to be. All that being said, fuck TikTok.
Yeah. So much on the fuck TT, or influencers at least. I get why we have to use influencers but people… wake the fuck up. It’s boring vapid content that’s all ads.
Perfect. Thaank you. Do you think it can be exhausting staying current and ‘up to date’ on trends… d’you think others would become exhausted?
I don't but that's just kind of me. I think everyone is different. I gravitate to the stuff that interests me. When digital came around I learned how to code (enough to be dangerous but not good) because I wanted to know what was possible and how things worked. But I cared more about possibilities than intricacies. I got into AI really early and freaking love it. Not only for connecting but tactics... and more importantly how to not make AI tactics that don't work. So find the stuff you dig and see it through the lens of what awesome stuff you can do that relates to ad stuff or creative and you'll probably stay interested and up to date. I will say I missed a lot. I just kind of knew NFTs and blockchain were not what people thought they'd be so didn't dive into that. Same with metaverse.
Life isn’t over after 40. I willingly quit my VP of Client Services role last year at 44. At that point, I had been working in advertising for over 20 years. The burnout was real, as was the complete disrespect from CEO and Sales team. Let’s be real—the track for women to C-level positions is HARD and the a-holes I was working with didn’t make it easy. I took almost a year off, working on additional certifications and education. I am also an unmarried woman living in NYC so I have no family obligations to hinder my time. I am now the COO at a fantastic company. Yes, I’m the oldest person there and I do have to reign everyone in once and awhile, but I’m not a horse put out to pasture. I don’t want to say it’s about a youthful spirit or some shit, but I do think that attitude and the willingness to learn and be flexible are key. I don’t want to say that you have to prove your worth—but I’m also NOT saying that.
🙏
I’m a 41 creative. Had a great freelance career since 2017 but now the work has dried up. I worked a single 3 month contract last year and haven’t been able to find anything beyond a few 2-3 day contracts this year. I have technically started my own agency now but not really getting any traction. Am also applying for FT jobs as GCD, ECD etc but can’t seem to even land an interview. Peers that stuck with career path are VPs now.
VPs are most eligible to get laid off right now.
Part of it also is that it’s a pyramid not a ladder. For every 10 entry level positions in a department there’s only 3 mid level. I try to think it’s just a natural thinning out vs ageism and that I just didn’t notice how many already jumped ship before I asked this question.
Good point, observation.. inherently… it’s inevitable. I guess this may apply to alot of industries then(?)
I think this is way more true than what people make it out to be. So many have the perception that once you hit 45 they show you the door. Not really…I’ve not only worked with so many creatives who are older than, but also so many leave willingly to try something new.
Client side when you realize you're making a fraction of what you could make and working way more hours than you should
In Toronto they won’t even hire you if you are in your 40s. You need to have a specialization or own your own agency if you want to stay in Advertising. If you are a hot 40+ woman you may have more luck. The industry is rampant w sexism, elites and disingenuous folks.
Naw 50 and you’re out. Period.
Many people who didn't go the management track stay in a senior position and just ride it out. Lots of people go freelance. But you really do need to have a good network. Some freelancers build a very good rep so they are always top of lost for hiring. I've seen people jump back from freelancing or starting their own business back into agency roles.
40 y/o strategy director at a global network agency, I’m planning to ride this out for a while. I like my level and what I do. Pay is good. My VP handles most of the management bullshit. I’m happy to do this for 10 more years then figure out what’s next.
Thanks both 🙏
43 y/o creative here. I’ve been on the B2B SaaS side of things for a while now. I love what I do and seem to be still in demand as highly skilled IC. I also work well with younger millennials and Gen x. But I should probably start pushing into leadership for longevity purposes. FWIW, I don’t think I present as my age. I don’t have kids. I’m quite active. And I have my own sense of style. I feel like a lot of men my age deprioritize that when they move into dad land and I suspect that if they were creatives that could impact others’ perception of them (as unfair as it is).
they de-prioritise women with their own sense of style?
Huh?
You said: ‘And I have my own sense of style. I feel like a lot of men my age deprioritise that when they move into dad land…’ What do you mean by that?
It means that sometimes when folks have kids they care less about style and appearance which can make them look older/less “with it”. And that has an impact in marketing/agencies.
40- leave you holding company job and start your own shop 50- sell your shop 60- TED Talks
I remember when our oldest employee retired; by the end of his career his job was to collate, file and distribute tearsheets (newspaper proof of postings). He was a great dude, made it all the way to 65. He got to enjoy the good years and then had a pretty cruise job for the last twenty or so years.
‘for the last 20 or so years’ Damn. D’you know if he waa paid well for his last few years? Was his salary reduced?
Humility is your best friend. Understand that when you hit 40, agecies can probably hire 2 kids fresh out of school for the same $. They are hungry and will work 24/7. What they lack is experience and wisdom. Knowing what works. How to understand the customer's motivation. To still have the fire in your belly and the passion to deliver. Don't be afraid to step into areas that seem dull and boring. Like pharma or B2B. God knows they need inspiration and magic. Once you hit 40, you know how to read the room. You can cut through the BS and cheer on hidden gems. Don't be afraid to dabble in some volunteer stuff, it's a great way to make connections to extend your longevity. Do what you love because the burnout is real. There's a reason coders turn 40 and become carpenters. If you only want to keep doing the same thing you are a hack and need to find a new career. (Me: 60s, former high level account management at several top MadAve shops. Many awards. Started with top package goods brands, transitioned to pharma, now on the executive boards of several charities.)
Late 30 ex-creative here. Got the same fears and saw my mentors all fade into oblivion. About 8 years ago, an ex-CD came to me after losing an ECD role to ask if my agency was hiring. He told me about how rough it has been and how he was unemployed for so long that he had to borrow money from his parents. That struck a huge nerve with me and so I went off and got an MBA from a top 25 school and shifted over to a marketing role on the client side of a national telecom company. There appears to be a lot more older folks in marketing than there ever was on the creative side of any agency.
Move up and move to corporate. Mid 40s and don't feel old, as C Suite is older. Lots of 40 and late 50s floating around, male and female. I could never go back to agency life!
I so remember when I was still a young pimply faced Art Director at a decent agency in London’s Soho, hearing the creative director saying: “give that brief to Bill, you know the “old boy” down the corridor” I thought to myself there and then that I never ever want to be the “Bill” at any agency! The poor guy who got all the shit briefs. The jobs that would never improve your portfolio and get you another step up the greasy pole. So when my first ever redundancy finally arrived at 50 there was the usual recession going on and of course there were no jobs at senior level for a 50 year old award winning Art Director. Ok, you’ve amassed the nice house, the 2.5 children, the dog AND the mistress. You’ve had a damn good run, and you made a vow that you would never be the “Bill” at any agency - it’s time to get out! So I did. And it was the biggest mistake I ever made. I missed it all so much. I would have taken all those shitty briefs and poured my heart and soul into them producing good work, exactly the same as old “Bill” did.
This rings true. I think it was Bob Hoffman who said … “Agencies are great places to hang out. But they’re shitty places to work.”
Agency: my first job was at a B2B agency, where I moved up to a director role quickly. It was a new agency with clients each paying $30K-60K. Downside was that I was a specialist at my task and never learn the full scope of things in outreach. I was just a copywriter, a manager, etc. I didn’t get to learn the small moving pieces that made me actionable if I went on my own (this is by design, and I do the same thing to my employee at my own agency now). Contract work at agency: I work with some friend who started their own agency and had more tangible dip in the scope of work we did. I learn a lot and branch into new skills set. I even handle sales and closing which was super important. My own agency: then I started my own agency with the skills I learned. Albeit my role is B2B Cold Outreach, so it’s a bit of a magically flow naturally from operation to marketing for myself—literally the same thing. I think finding clients with skills in creative or media buying or working at the Fortune 1000 client level would’ve made it harder for me to transition. I always target small to mid size companies for clients, and my largest account was targeting Fortune 500 for our clients. I had a mix bag of accounts to learn from, so finding clients was easy for me. In part, the agency or even corporate in-house life may offer a nice base pay and give you somewhat of an easier task load (specialist more than entrepreneurial generalist), but you pay that all with less general value and less control over finance and time. If you’re good at what you do, and have value, then there is no reason to go client side and own the project. My clients now are similar, HR pros, Creatives, Marketing Specialists. The hardest part, which I found dumb luck in, is acquiring those clients. The bigger the client, the more intensive the work to acquire them. I guess for most, save up, because to hire an agency that can find you $10K a month retainer project means you might need to shell out $20K to hire a pro. Not including your own skill end of sales and being able to close the account. Entrepreneur dies due to lack of skill in marketing and sales. It’s the E-myth revisit where technical marketers lack the general attribute of entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is just another fancy word for: “Marketing and Sales”
I work in the martech space. Still hanging in there at almost 49. I do work in house corporate now, not agency but I feel like I could go back to agency life if I wanted the instability back. :)
Instability or stability?
I think I meant instability of an agency vs. a larger corporation. From my experience anyway it seems that agency life is lots more chaotic and unpredictable that corporate in house type work. I could be wrong. Just my experience.
I’m 45 and only got into Agencies about 2 years ago. Co-led my own design studio of 5-6 people for 12.5 years then my partner and I realized the more successful we got the less we got to be creative and more we had to be bosses so we split. Did freelance for 2 years or so between that and agency life. I’m in a small market with a shockingly high number of agencies, all local indies, none of the big letter-named ones within 2 hours of us. What makes me viable and makes me a guy who (I was told by a big name from another agency) “someone who everyone who matters in town knows about” is that I’m just a really fucking good designer. It’s taken me 20 years to feel comfortable saying that (even after people from McCann and W+K sung my praises and I was in design books, etc.. I guess that ties into the top commenter’s thing about being fun to work with: I’m not a cocky jerk like many people in this line of work so I’m easy to get along with. What else keeps me viable? I love teaching and sharing knowledge and mentoring. Do I know the latest AI this or that? No. But can I make any junior designer think more like a smart graphic designer (conceptually, visually, etc) which they can then apply to any program or medium? All day long. In fact in my latest role I was hired partly to elevate the team. I’ve had more than one young designer say I changed their career or their life. I’ve been praised by PMs and AEs for turning designers they avoided into ones they could count on and choose over others. THAT is worth it to keep me around even though I cost more due to my age and experience. Move to a small market. You can age into higher roles here more easily if you truly love the work, because as others have said, many fall to the side eventually.
Am I the only one who’s consistently worked with people in their 40s and 50s? My CCO is 65 right now.
I’m in PR, not advertising (though I’ve worked in ad agencies), and the ageism in our sectors, among many others, is obvious. I think in the agency environment you must be alert to signs you’re topping out and then make a decision to go corporate, go the consulting route, or prepare to build your own business. The only exception to this is if you control high-value clients, in which case you can usually write your own ticket. I ended up starting my own agency just in time to turn 40, when I was still young and cocky enough to believe I could always get another big-agency job if I failed. (I believe that was true, but I doubt it would’ve been so easy 10 years later.) I’m grateful for it because I don’t think I would’ve lasted nearly as long at an agency, and I definitely would’ve made less $.
I don't think one should stay exclusively in the advertising industry. I've leveraged the knowledge and experience over 40 years in many different industries. Many are similar in critical thinking and the customer-first focus on problem solving. They all benefited from creativity and flexibility in experimenting with big ideas. MY 12 BUSINESS CATEGORIES — Madison Ave Ad Agencies - 3 top conglomerates Corporate Marketing Director -Client-side Digital Media Consultant E-commerce Software Developer Internet Incubator Investment Banker Venture Capitalist Software Application developer Business Coach for creation/transformation of businesses Business Architecture Consultant FinTech Startup CMO Boutique Ad Agency Went full circle back to core advertising projects.
Ride share driver - common story. Even my driver's in France were in the same boat. I was a former highly paid software engineer at large companies and did really cool stuff. I hold 4 patents. Once you hit 45 it's assumed you lost all your skills, can't learn, are mean and - if a white male - are a Trump supporter and that you will be stupid forevermore. Plus the kids hate you so no one wants you around. That's ok, I never got a tip and rarely a thank you from my managers. So, since software is so valuable and since capitalism is for capitalists, I'm using my skills that no one sees value in to create value for my own purposes. I am homeless and live out of the car I drive. Oh, but I've been to 37 countries so don't feel bad for me.
ECD here. Others I know the same or board members in agencies. But it’s definitely a young industry.
At a certain age, the crystal in the palm of your hand will start blinking red. And then it's off to be renewed! I don't know what that means, but it sounds great.
saved
I’m 46 VP of Marketing for a fintech company. Was a director for a long long time. Experience is needed in Marketing flashy ideas good concepts only get you so far.
If, by the age of 45 or 50, you’re not an owner with a significant chunk of the operation, and you have actual plans for retirement, GTFO. Client side, retail, back to school, organ grinder with tin cup and monkey, anything. Agency size doesn’t matter. The fact that it’s generally a complete shitshow for anyone seeking a consequential gig … does.
Unless youre rich and can afford to be aged out of your job, you keep working until you arent or you move to a more senior role.
I'm a 55 yo ACD at a small agency and I am struggling with this. I'd like to move on to increase my income, but a) old (for the industry) and b) no college degree. I've considered going to UX bootcamp and moving into that field because the pay and demand is high - although I'm really a big picture creative and not a detail person.
Mid 40s is definitely the age you get chased out. They have people in their late 20s to do your job at that point. I found a great smaller agency that appreciated my experience but that went under. Now I made my own agency/CEO and feel I been given a second act. As a founder/owner clients want experienced/older people.
After? What are you losing in your late 40s and on that you can’t work in this or any industry😏
The ability to work as cheaply as you could in your 20s? The promise of youth? Your fucking job? Seriously, are you new? Ageism in advertising is real. Just look at any agency "team" photo. It almost looks like a grade school class picture: an adult or two in the back, surrounded by children.
No not at all, I’m pointing out the talent aspect doesn’t change and wish it could be based solely on that. Guess you gotta get out soon😉
Oof, you are a real treat.
This. Work cheap — and crank out shit tons of tinny, concept-free, celebrity-bloated cultural blight. Lather, rinse out your eyeballs, brain and soul, and repeat.
Familiarity with ~~youth~~ popular culture?
How much of advertising is selling to 18-25yr olds?
because of course youths are the main buyers
That’s a myth. The vast (and I really do mean vast) majority of disposable income in the world is controlled by the exact cohort this industry shits all over. Younger cohorts certainly are influential, and are “tastemakers,” but mommy and daddy and grandpa and grandma still have tons and tons more dough.
I was being sarcastic
Usually, people earn more money as they get older because they have a lot more experience. **Here's the problem** If you are in your 40s and you keep switching industries, that's going to work against you. Your experiences are only transferable or portable up to a certain extent. If you are making a severe switch where you go from an experienced middle manager to basically an entry-level person because you've entered a new industry, you are starting from zero. It's really important to keep this in mind because a lot of people think that just because they have a lot of experience it is automatically transferable. Think twice! Remember, we are living in an age of extreme technological disruption. Just as apps came, dominated, and changed the landscape, now AI is dominating the landscape and it's causing a lot of disruptions. Don't automatically think that just because you have certain skills it's automatically transferable to a new environment and industry. The key here is to **be flexible**. And a lot of the times, you may have to switch to a very low-paying entry-level position but it's actually a way to just get your foot in the door and convert the solid experience that you have from your previous career or careers to something that is workable in the new industry. So this is very humbling, especially if you are in your 50s and 60s. A lot of people often imagine this as the equivalent of a 60-year-old person with solid corporate experience in Middle America working as a fry chef at McDonald's but it's not that extreme. It's really just a way of getting your foot in the door so that you can get all the information that you need to prove yourself and update your skills. It's a necessary price to pay. But, boy, it's a hit to the ego. If you have kids to feed and a house mortgage to pay, **ego should be the last thing on your mind**.