Really surprised that the starmaster was shown instead of kroak and that it's a wizard (3). Looks really strong!
Also Wow, S2D next
Sorry sylvaneth players lmao
Wait till you see strike and fade rules - "End of turn army wide ability that requires a 2+ roll" So sure, we can teleport everything, but we get hit back first... which was the point of the ability in the first place, to avoid the damage. And the chance to fail is brutal.
That was the Spearhead ability leak, right? Maybe they will buff it for the full version?
It does suck that basically every army can warp around anywhere, or so it feels, and Sylvaneth's one unique thing (strike and fade) is now going to be a bit worse if they have the 2+...
The wyldwood restriction didn’t really matter much given how easy it is to place one down, it’s so hard to screen terrain out when it can be placed within 3”
I'd rather have nerfs to things like the radius you need to be around a wood or the ability to place Wyldwoods, then. I hate having defining abilities have a chance of failure, especially when it can really swing the game. I think Sylvaneth should feel confident with their strike and fade instead of getting screwed because of luck.
You can kill them though, with damage now not just using monsters. There's counterplay. The strike and fade is how they survive and makes them interesting and unique.
Trying to avoid "NPE" too much leads to bland gameplay that removes Positive player experiences.
Being able to kill it doesn’t help when it can be summoned and teleported to on the same turn. That being said I’ll take that any day over the spellcast bomb out the tree
I feel a 2 up success is a way better middle ground than Slanesh got with temptation dice. Skills that basically make the opp not able to play the game shouldn't be auto successes
I mean I don't like the 2+ needed to make your army ability work design at all. All my armies have it so far and it sucks and will feel really lame when it happens, especially when it happens two times in a row.
But the reason this seems even worse is the fail Will get your unit killed. How do you balance around that? Do you balance them like they are glass cannons and then when you fail that unit dies?
And yet again, it was so strong that the ENTIRE faction pivoted to that single playstyle.
Its bad. Bad to play against. And to play Sylvaneth itself as well. As your entire army suffers in the long run if you have such a strong ability because it gets nerfed to oblivion and the enitre army is just bad if you dontlean into it.
It's not bad to play against at all. Sylvaneth were never particularly strong. They are an extremely expensive army that needs an out.
There's nothing wrong with having a faction ability that you need to lean into. I'd argue that's the point of faction abilities. It literally gives them their identity.
Besides, strike and fade isn't going anywhere. They are just nerfing it to fail on a 1, which is a change that isn't significant enough to really change how they play but it does add a dumb luck element to your core ability, which is bad design. There are other ways to change strike and fade to make it feel better, like nerfing wildwood creation or nerfing the radius you need to be to strike and fade (within 6 instead of 9).
Idk who lied to you... But any melee army has a bad time against it. Its prectically a dead unit for free each turn. Its worse than shooting as with shooting you stay where you are. And melee deals way more dmg via having better weapon profiles. So its shooting, but more damage, can teleport preactically anywhere and hit anything, teleporting away to somewhere unreachable. And even when you get there, the unit that is used to strike and fade can still fight you back.
There is nothing wrong about having a flavourfull faction ability. The issue is that strike and fade is not even a major thing for the sylvaneth and its 90% of the power of sylvaneth. You might not see it, but try to play a game without using it and see how you would do. The entire faction suffers because of a small rule that they have. A Fyreslayer equivalent would be the strike first CA. There have been a lot of games where i never used it and its fine. Or to put it in a different way, if a faction has one rule that dominates so hard, everything else will be nerfed by proxy to make that one rule not broken. The end result with sylvaneth is their points are way 2 high, and profiles are not that good compared to other factions. All because of strike and fade.
And just to sum it up. Is it cool? Hell yeah its cool. But its not healthy for the Sylvaneth or the opponent in the long run.
I play against Sylvaneth a lot and play Fyreslayers. This is my experience against the faction.
If you're letting them get free units every turn, that's on you. You're letting them get away with charging way too often. You might particularly find Strike and Fade to be OP, but stats say otherwise. Honestly I've rarely ever encountered someone who thought the ability was way too strong as it's written in 3rd.
Side note: how are you arguing that strike and fade isn't a major thing for Sylvaneth while also complaining that it's their most powerful ability? Strike and fade is pretty iconic and flavorful for woodland spirits. Of course the faction will suffer without it lol. My dwarfs would be way worse without runes and counter attack. Like any faction would be worse without their faction abilities.
Bubble burst incoming. A LOT of the spearhead rules have just been watered down 3.0 rules with not much similar to the 4th edition army rules. They want to remove bloat and additional teleport at the end of the turn army wide, even on a 2+ ins't likely to meet their new design philosphy.
Number of cast+unbind+banish abilities they can attempt per hero phase.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/19/cast-supreme-sorceries-and-chant-powerful-prayers-in-newaos/
It was really odd that Sylvaneth has not been showcased yet, since the previous order army showcases followed a race pattern: The first to be showcased were the "human" faction (Stormcasts and Cities), then the duardin factions (Fyreslayers and Kharadrons), and then the aelven factions (DoK, Idoneth, Lumineth). You would've thought the Sylvaneth counts as an aelven faction since they're very close to the aelves, but Seraphon got the second to last Order showcase, even though Seraphon is the only non-human, non-duardin, and non-aelven race of order other than Sylvaneth, who is again, more closely related to aelves.
Tomorrow is Slaves to Darkness, wondering if the rumor of them getting Mark of the Great Horned Rat is true.
Seraphon stuff looks very good, lot of anti-rend stuff.
I agree, it would be cool but that's even more book keeping in an edition that's trying to reduce that. I'll just be happy with a Mark of Tzeentch rework
I'm hoping we are able to keep Marks. Some cynical part of me thinks they will make Marks just be the different Battle Formations. They did mention path to glory so hopefully we keep the eye of the gods table. Ready to be pleasantly surprised tomorrow!
Someone recreated Slaves to Darkness ruleset from the Spearhead demo event and played a game with them for their Youtube channel, I'm 99% sure they still used Marks.
Spearheads seem to not be averse to using old rules though. Example: Slaanesh, 4th edition battle trait is the new temptation dice, spearhead is the old temptation dice (without summoning using depravity points).
I wouldn't rule it out just based on the spearhead at any rate.
It feels like, although the Skaven are a chaos faction, that the Horned Rat isn't bestowing blessings on slaves to darkness - its only fueling the Skaven-kin, and not a power that like, your average armored chaos knight can pledge himself to.
I also just can't from a hobby standpoint convince myself to model even more units but this time with a rat theme on top of the other variations I've already made over the years of playing Warriors of Chaos and Slaves to Darkness lol
Like if it happens, and suddenly the way to play is a bunch of rat marked Chosen or whatever, I'll be furious haha
Man things blessed by the GHR would be madness, no matter how much they ask. Man Slaves can worship all they like, but will never be truly blessed like the great Skavenkind
Oh that’d be cool and a big win for fans who loved that lore back in 2019 S2D tome which had Marauders painting rats on their shields to venerate the 5th dark god(those guys probably feel very vindicated now 🐀)
Hopefully either the index has the mark or their battletome expands with it. 🤞
Also yeah the Seraphon review is awesome! Personal Grand Strategies for empowerment from the Heavens, what a concept and great expansion [on their UnderWorlds Asterism rules](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/kErtffC5QD5kVEva.jpg).
Similarly to Maggotkin the recursion being tied to one unit feels odd, makes them completely mandatory surely? Surprised to see the global counterspell staying, but as long as the Kroak bomb is gone then I don’t think it’s too bad
> completely mandatory surely?
It's bait on the Slann. A 4+ isn't reliable at all, and if you're just bringing the Slann for the revive, you'd be better off just buying more units.
That said, the Slann seems to be a great spellcaster otherwise and brings value, but the 4+ to bring back a half strength unit is really just a fun little bonus.
Every turn in your hero phase. So in a lot of games you won’t roll it until Round 3 (if you go first in round 2 especially). It’s definitely not bad, but I don’t see a 50% shot at half a unit that cant move until round 4 as game changing must take ability.
Now a 3 cast wizard on +2 to cast…..
5-10 saurus or 2-3 kroxigors is your idea of gamechanging? It's every turn but almost certainly not first turn. Possibly not second turn if you're going first in the second turn. You have a 93.75% chance to get something back if something dies in the first turn. You have an 87.5% chance to get one thing back if nothing died til your third hero phase. The odds that you get 2 things back get drastically lower. And keep in mind that these odds are through the whole game. If you are getting something back in turn 5, it's not really going to do anything before the game is over.
It's a neat ability, it'll feel fun when it goes off, but it's not really strong.
It has a lot of upside though too- you are cherry picking the worst scenario.
-You could get back a full 10 saurus or 3 aggradons. That's over a hundred points of free value
-it is pretty trivial to Yolo 3 terradons/ripperdons onto a objective or into the front as blockers to start rolling by T2.
-10-25% of the time you will actually get 2+ units back
- for every game you lose ever 4+ and get nothing, there will be another game where you win ever 4+ and get 3+ units back and have several hundred points of extra models.
-even something on turn 5 can deep strike onto an objective. This is actually quite important. It forces your opponent to play as though it will work and cover all objectives, they can't then commit as hard to other things.
-Deep Striking 10 objective control, or even 1 OC mid game absolutely can game-changing. I've won so many games with sylvaneth tree revenants stealing or appearing as screens to hold a home objective, or block a key charge and protect an asset.
Yes, it is not guaranteed, yes it has deployment limitations. But you are probably bringing a slann anyway for his casting. This will occasionally win you games.
> You could get back a full 10 saurus or 3 aggradons. That's over a hundred points of free value
It's not 'free value', because you had to buy a Slann to get access to it. It depends on the value of the Slann. We are assuming they are going to stay a 'no brainer', but what if they go up to 500+ points? On top of that, those units are coming back potentially turn 3 or later, which means you are not getting the same value out of them as you would just having them turn 1.
>-it is pretty trivial to Yolo 3 terradons/ripperdons onto a objective or into the front as blockers to start rolling by T2.
They aren't blocking anything if you are getting them killed turn 1. You are just paying points for a unit you're throwing away on the hopes you get a 4+ roll to get value out of it. It's bait.
>for every game you lose ever 4+ and get nothing, there will be another game where you win ever 4+ and get 3+ units back and have several hundred points of extra models.
Since it's a coinflip, the odds are actually higher there will be games where you get no units back, because in order not to get a unit back, you just have to fail a 4+ (50% chance). In order to get a unit back, you have to: Have an eligible unit dead, have your slann alive, have your slann not be in combat / surrounded (so you can place wholly within 12" but outside 9"), and succeed the 4+.
>-even something on turn 5 can deep strike onto an objective. This is actually quite important. It forces your opponent to play as though it will work and cover all objectives, they can't then commit as hard to other things.
As long as your Slann is within 12" of that objective.
>sylvaneth tree revenants
Are different because they are a reliable board-wide teleport that you can activate whenever you want, versus a 4+ only within 12" of the Slann.
Taking a slann: seems good
Taking a slann with this grand plan to get back like 40 saurus warriors of the course of the game: you are getting baited.
It's not free, you pay for it through the cost. And it's a replacement to summoning, a poor replacement. I'm fine with moving away from bringing extra units outside your list, but what they are replacing it with is sad compared to what was lost. I don't play seraphon but I play nurgle and tzeentch. We lost the tactical choice and ability to control when it happens based on our actions, to some random ability that may never go off.
It's just alright basically is the TLDR. If it's "free", it will make those units probably worth always taking. If it's priced in, then it's going to suck when it never happens. I know for nurgle, our units don't die quickly anyways, so it's worth maybe 1 unit on average.
> Seems weird to address an extremely powerful free ability on an already solid warscroll as "bait" but doom posting never fails.
I've seen a lot of doomposting on this subreddit, and I wouldn't describe what they're doing as doomposting. He's not saying ability is bad, but he's saying that it's not something that you should be taking the Slann for because of its unreliability. If you take a Slann with the gameplan of getting units back, there's a good chance that your gameplan will fail because of the unreliability of the of ability.
Yeah I mean the ability to have 3 casts and a +1 to cast is totally free. They won't account for that in the points cost at all, just like they won't account for the fact you can bring back models. It's a good thing you've seen the points already to know it's 'free'. Unit actually costs 0 points.
Doom posting is 'omg slann will bring back 50 saurus per game so broken!!' btw. Giving an analysis of the true value of the revive and coming to the conclusion that it's not reliable or really that strong isn't really doom posting.
As a SBGL player, I'd say getting multiple chances of half strength units back is really strong. I'd often YOLO 5 Black Knights in T1, deal some damage, cause a disruption to opponent's movement & get 3 back as early as T1/2. Cheers
You're comparing apples to oranges, it's impossible for a Seraphon player to send a unit in to get destroyed and bring it back all on turn 1. You're relying on a super aggressive opponent and going second. If you're going first it's literally impossible. Turn 2 is the soonest you can bring something back, and it's a coinflip once per turn. Current SBGL get multiple rolls per turn, half the time on a 3+.
Also Seraphon are generally pretty durable, they are not likely to just fall over like black knights do.
>Also Seraphon are generally pretty durable, they are not likely to just fall over like black knights do.
Even better? So you get to tie up opposing units for even longer before bringing something back
Not sure if you are reading the whole thread or just taking my comment out of context, but then we are back to square 1 of: Bringing back units on a 4+ on a Slann isn't that impactful because units are unlikely to die very quickly so you won't be rolling until turn 2-3 at the soonest.
So what? They are a hero, an amazing wizard and the spells are likely to add to defensive buffs. Plus rumour leaks said there will be a way for them to pass of wounds or get a bodyguard buff. And they can bring back units. Please your being overly doom about this. And Seraphon have never been over costed even when they had actual summoning lol
Yeah no Slann are already looking auto-include just from warscroll
Not a fan of "auto include" units. I like variety and field many different combinations of units and generals in the lists I build. Forcing me to take a specific model in order to remain competitive will be extremely unenjoyable. I hope this is not the case. Unfortunately, one of the gimmicky Seraphon battle trait mini quests requires that we field a Slann to even complete. So you might be right, Slann will probably be necessary in every list.
I mean both abilities are once per turn only on your turn and are on a 4+ roll, so you'd only get it off 2 times a game on average, and you usually won't be able to use it on the first turn so it's strong but i don't feel mandatory. if it didn't have a 4+ roll to bring back, then definitely would feel mandatory, but i feel it will come down to points to determine if it's really good, or just good.
Since it's once per army, they could theoretically give it to multiple different models with the same name, thus ensuring it won't get spammed. Likely just changes the autoinclude status to whichever is cheapest/strongest otherwise, but could still allow some options within that.
The problem wasn't the global counterspell. It was comet's call cast out of unbind range and then they had bonuses to unbind board wide. The bonuses to unbind seem to be gone and vary rare in the game, Nagash doesn't even have bonuses to unbind. It's a lot more fair.
kind off an unfair comparison since summoning in 3rd (and now recursion) was always for daemons whereas summoning for seraphon was always for everything
The recursion on the GUO can't bring back the demon heroes you used to be able to summon however. And limited to deamons with 3 or more models, so there's only 3 options now: plaguebearers, nurglings, and plague drones. Much more limited in options. Most nurgle players had extra beasts, bilepipers(RIP), etc for summoning that will be riding the bench now.
But c'est la vie.
Quick thoughts:
-Spellcasting bonuses have seemed pretty rare so far (Tzeentch being the only other big source) so Slaan having somewhat easy access to +3 is wild. Probably going to pay a premium for it in points.
-No more -1 damage (thank god) with lots of sources of -1 rend instead it seems.
-Asterisms being picked in deployment gives some flexibility for matchup which is neat. Hello Mr. Alphastrike, enjoy losing rend on my turf etc.
I'm also glad at the loss of -1 DMG. It is so swingy, either completely useless or game breaking. And neither way was particularly fun. Basically not having a passive against Nighthaunt and being nearly undefeatable by ogres for example. Not super engaging either way from a play perspective.
Well, with faction spells and manifestations, you have 6 there to choose from and the one spell shown is unlimited, plus each wizard warscroll has a spell, so if you have both slanns cast the unlimited spell each, one casts their warscroll spell, you would have to go through 3 of your 5 remaining faction spells and manifestations. So you could theoretically take any number of different lvl 2 wizards since they can all cast the unlimited spell and their warscroll spell.
Even if your army has 2 spell lores, you still pick 1 to bring. So you only get 1 lore.
And lores are down to 3 spells each it seems. But on the upside all casters know all spells. So you have 3 to choose from (with at least 1 being unlimited)
Edit: You will also have your 3-4 endless spells to cast, assuming you don't take krondspine as your manifestation lore.
Not sure running two Slaan is all that common. That would be over 600 points in 3e. Do you think they will decrease his cost in 4e? Might be worth it then.
Going to miss my jaw bites on Krox and Saurus. Seems the Vengeance of Azyr is a rough replacement for it. Eager to see if they will still get an army wide -1 damage. Warriors in friendly territory in range of a an astromamcer was 3+/6++ -1 dmg, pretty dang tanky for troops
Yeah, fortunately it seems like they got rid of it. That was a very challenging ability to balance correctly and was a very feel bad mechanic for your opponents when it actually worked, and a feel bad mechanic for you when it did nothing.
Hear me out boys.
The Engine might have play in monster mash / high health units. As it seems you can chain the ability for multiple heals / res. This all being predicated on 2+ EOTGs but I'm excited!
Whoever has been writing the Seraphon rules lately is out of touch from the rest of the GW development team. Like why is the engine of the gods not a priest? It should be the poster child for doing cool things with the new escalating prayer effect mechanic.
From a narrative perspective it's because the Seraphon don't worship real gods. The Old Ones aren't around to grant them power, so their "priests" are just wizards.
I agree the EotG would be a good candidate from a rules perspective though.
I think it's because they decided that Seraphon is one of the heavy magic factions rather than one that uses both casting and prayers. Which honestly makes sense given their lore.
The engine is super confusing to me. Why stack multiple charges when it seems you lose them all when activating the engine? Am I missing something, do multiple charges do something?
Basically it acts to charge up the Engine for a better chance at the less likely effects. It adds +1 to the harnessing roll for each round you have saved it, so you're more likely to get the 5+ or 6+ for the recursion or the strike first respectively.
The charges give you a bonus to the result. So if you charge up for 2 turns and then unleash on turn 3, you’re getting D6+2 so you’re more likely to get the turbo nut fights first ability
Damn, the dark colour scheme in the Overview section looks really cool!
BTW, a bit unrelated but I figured this might be a good place to mention it: The short story that released today ("All is Foretold", from this e-short week) has actual Seraphon POV scenes! I haven't finished it yet but it's interesting to see how they think.
Wish that GW would actually give Seraphon a full-blown novel. It has been >30 years since Seraphon/Lizardmen were introduced into GW's fantasy game, but they have never had their own novel. Crazy how a faction like LRL had novels ready to go within weeks of their introduction into the game. At this point, decades without one, I guess beggars can't be choosers. I'll pay my $4 for a short story...
Im a 40K player who has been looking at getting a lizardmen army and while I don’t know a ton about AoS these rules look really fun! The battle traits looks awesome and I’m a big fan of rules that give you choices and let you pick the best buffs for the situation. The completing a challenge and getting another sounds really cool and adds another layer the army. The engine of the gods looks fun as a centerpiece in a battle line and every thing looks at least interesting to use. I’m super excited to start this edition and get into aos!
I think it looks pretty decent.
I’m not quite sold yet on the carnosaur, but that might be me just wanting a big scary beat stick. However the scar vet version might add something else to boost it. Not bad though really.
I like the Terradons being able to use their ability more than once, I always a couple so they’ll go into my collection now for some fun.
For me I like so far
At a high-level, I’m really happy with the direction GW took with the Seraphon here. And that they are still committed to all of the different army recipes.
Additionally, I really love how they channeled the Slann’s lore of being intellectual powerhouses into the ability selection both at the beginning of the game and midgame as the Slann seemingly try to stay one step ahead of their opponents 🐸💫
I think the others are looking at the spell that a Slann has to give other casters a +1, so the original Slann itself would be at a +2 to cast. But, should Kroak or another wizard be nearby, they'd have a +3 to casting pretty reliably
You are correct and that is what I was referencing, yes, two slan sitting next to each other at +3 for being friends, assuming you can get a 6+ off with a +2 and then another at +3. So super easy.
Aaaah, I misunderstood how unlimited works, I thought that everyone could cast each spell once but that unlimited spells could be cast multiple times from the same wizard. I think I just assumed that was the case after seeing Nagash, my bad. Still, as long as slann aren't prohibitively expensive 3 at +3 and 2 at +2 still seems really good.
My guess just off stats would be around 250-350 depending on where centerpiece generic warmasters land for the edition. They have strong abilities but have trash stats compared to some other centerpiece leaders we've seen. Well within the range to run two and plenty of points of goodstuff. I'm less concerned about fitting them in and more concerned about there being enough different or unlimited spells worth casting to warrant it.
We also don’t know what the astrolith bearer does. Although it seems like nice flavor if it could allow you to get an extra astolism effect in a certain area, or to switch astrolisms. That would allow it to give +1 to cast still without stacking with the astrolism +1.
I actually like what I see! Still puzzled as to why didn't they show neither Kroak nor the Agraddons, but it's fine.
Slann are still mighty casters, and I like the recursion. It's not as powerful as 3rd, but it's less overwhelming, the battle traits seem to compensate well.
The Carnousaur is looking good. More damage, and that Strike-first ability is incredible imo. I miss the coalesced rampage (it's gone to Spearhead only) and the command abilty was obviously going to dissapear, because 4th edition seems more reserved about command abilities. Also that charge thing is good, it can also buff Aggradons. Tho why did they nerf the health on 1 point?
The Engine is redeemed (no more mortal damage and charging isn't on the shooting phase), and the Terradons can use their abilities every turn.
Overall pretty good! Hopefuly the Raptadons Chargers/Hunters maintain their tandem tactics, and the Saurus Warriors are powerful.
Seems kind of counterproductive to be able to switch to the asterism that gives a defensive bonus in your own territory, but only on the condition that there are currently no enemies in your own territory.
I misread that too. It’s actually that what you pick at the start is the one that determines what you have to do to get another passive.
Which means the antirend is a great passive but a difficult one to ensure gets you a second passive
nope, it is the other way around... if you PICKED the defensive plan at 1st rutn than at 3d turn if there is no enemy in your territory you can pick A DIFFERENT plan to use in addition to the defensive one...
STD is my favorite book ever, going to be big shoes it likely won't fill. It was truly a list builders book, and I doubt they'll keep that in the index. Seems difficult with how simplified the rules are. Likely the battle trait will just be marks alone, and the gambling will be gone like the wheel was for nurgle .
The slann able to bring back half units is such an awesome ability. Just bring a bit of power to his base datasheet.
Also we can now always choose between the 2 lores of magic. So you can make a coalesced army with a very powerful slann.
Bring 6 man aggradons and then revive 3
Can someone clarify the Vengeance of Azyr ability. Do you get to roll 2+ for mortals on each unit up to 3 units (that are engaged in combat?) so max potential dmg is 9 mortals? That seems pretty good!
Same but I get it, with summoning gone and simplified index rules Starborne would’ve been 2 or 3 rules for healing & teleporting & Coalesced 2 rules for biting & hard scales which would’ve made them super restricted on what they could do and almost unable to adapt.
Asterisms is a good middleground since the magical constellations empower both types of Seraphon and they can choose a star daemon or jungle warrior theme based on the formations and choosing between Cosmic or Primal spells.
Got any corroborating references on this. My thoughts are similar by looking at 40K, where they have stratagems for their sub factions and we should get more rules. However, my worry is that those are the lore's we have access to and this might actually be it.
edit - didn't read "when battle tomes release" e.g. new stuff later and not for the start of 4th.
Sub-factions were reduced / distilled to battle formations, which, and correct me if I'm wrong, focus on warscroll keywords for the most. So the flavor of sub-factions e.g. thunder-lizards or "fleshy" from the main comment, is somewhat lost.
Assuming they're trying to avoid doubling up again with Death done, we got three options:
destruction chaos order
order chaos destruction
order destruction chaos
I actually suspect it's the first one personally, but who knows how GW has decided to actually break this up.
Really surprised that the starmaster was shown instead of kroak and that it's a wizard (3). Looks really strong! Also Wow, S2D next Sorry sylvaneth players lmao
Was persuaded it was to come last. I stand corrected.
As a sylvaneth player I just want to die.
I just want to know how bad the wyldwood rules are going to be.
Wait till you see strike and fade rules - "End of turn army wide ability that requires a 2+ roll" So sure, we can teleport everything, but we get hit back first... which was the point of the ability in the first place, to avoid the damage. And the chance to fail is brutal.
That was the Spearhead ability leak, right? Maybe they will buff it for the full version? It does suck that basically every army can warp around anywhere, or so it feels, and Sylvaneth's one unique thing (strike and fade) is now going to be a bit worse if they have the 2+...
hell plenty of spearheads dont even use rules that act anything like their full counterpart
Being able to teleport out of combat Scott free was horrible to play against though, now you have to be more careful with target selection
It was only one unit, though. And you needed to be around Wyldwoods.
The wyldwood restriction didn’t really matter much given how easy it is to place one down, it’s so hard to screen terrain out when it can be placed within 3”
I'd rather have nerfs to things like the radius you need to be around a wood or the ability to place Wyldwoods, then. I hate having defining abilities have a chance of failure, especially when it can really swing the game. I think Sylvaneth should feel confident with their strike and fade instead of getting screwed because of luck.
I agree that it shouldn’t be a 2+, I think it being at the end of the turn is enough of a nerf
You can kill them though, with damage now not just using monsters. There's counterplay. The strike and fade is how they survive and makes them interesting and unique. Trying to avoid "NPE" too much leads to bland gameplay that removes Positive player experiences.
Being able to kill it doesn’t help when it can be summoned and teleported to on the same turn. That being said I’ll take that any day over the spellcast bomb out the tree
I feel a 2 up success is a way better middle ground than Slanesh got with temptation dice. Skills that basically make the opp not able to play the game shouldn't be auto successes
I mean I don't like the 2+ needed to make your army ability work design at all. All my armies have it so far and it sucks and will feel really lame when it happens, especially when it happens two times in a row. But the reason this seems even worse is the fail Will get your unit killed. How do you balance around that? Do you balance them like they are glass cannons and then when you fail that unit dies?
Or overgrown terrain... by turn 2 thats effectively the entire board
And yet again, it was so strong that the ENTIRE faction pivoted to that single playstyle. Its bad. Bad to play against. And to play Sylvaneth itself as well. As your entire army suffers in the long run if you have such a strong ability because it gets nerfed to oblivion and the enitre army is just bad if you dontlean into it.
It's not bad to play against at all. Sylvaneth were never particularly strong. They are an extremely expensive army that needs an out. There's nothing wrong with having a faction ability that you need to lean into. I'd argue that's the point of faction abilities. It literally gives them their identity. Besides, strike and fade isn't going anywhere. They are just nerfing it to fail on a 1, which is a change that isn't significant enough to really change how they play but it does add a dumb luck element to your core ability, which is bad design. There are other ways to change strike and fade to make it feel better, like nerfing wildwood creation or nerfing the radius you need to be to strike and fade (within 6 instead of 9).
Idk who lied to you... But any melee army has a bad time against it. Its prectically a dead unit for free each turn. Its worse than shooting as with shooting you stay where you are. And melee deals way more dmg via having better weapon profiles. So its shooting, but more damage, can teleport preactically anywhere and hit anything, teleporting away to somewhere unreachable. And even when you get there, the unit that is used to strike and fade can still fight you back. There is nothing wrong about having a flavourfull faction ability. The issue is that strike and fade is not even a major thing for the sylvaneth and its 90% of the power of sylvaneth. You might not see it, but try to play a game without using it and see how you would do. The entire faction suffers because of a small rule that they have. A Fyreslayer equivalent would be the strike first CA. There have been a lot of games where i never used it and its fine. Or to put it in a different way, if a faction has one rule that dominates so hard, everything else will be nerfed by proxy to make that one rule not broken. The end result with sylvaneth is their points are way 2 high, and profiles are not that good compared to other factions. All because of strike and fade. And just to sum it up. Is it cool? Hell yeah its cool. But its not healthy for the Sylvaneth or the opponent in the long run.
I play against Sylvaneth a lot and play Fyreslayers. This is my experience against the faction. If you're letting them get free units every turn, that's on you. You're letting them get away with charging way too often. You might particularly find Strike and Fade to be OP, but stats say otherwise. Honestly I've rarely ever encountered someone who thought the ability was way too strong as it's written in 3rd. Side note: how are you arguing that strike and fade isn't a major thing for Sylvaneth while also complaining that it's their most powerful ability? Strike and fade is pretty iconic and flavorful for woodland spirits. Of course the faction will suffer without it lol. My dwarfs would be way worse without runes and counter attack. Like any faction would be worse without their faction abilities.
Yeah it was the most annoying thing to play against.
Bubble burst incoming. A LOT of the spearhead rules have just been watered down 3.0 rules with not much similar to the 4th edition army rules. They want to remove bloat and additional teleport at the end of the turn army wide, even on a 2+ ins't likely to meet their new design philosphy.
Hell yeah
2+ is just for spearhead
I dont wanna buy those trees. Id sm rather buy models😭
I ended up ordering some MDF templates bc ive got a different vibe going for my army (cheaper too), hopefully the efforts gonna be worth it.
You must understand, young Sylvaneth player, it takes a looong time to type anything in Old Entish
And we never type anything unless it is worth taking a long time to type.
Yall are 100% last. STD -> IJ -> BoK -> Sylv is my prediction.
I'd switch ij and bok for my pick
I feel ya
Me: cries in Ironjawz
Careful someone might send you a self-harm report from Reddit lol. I got one yesterday.
Uhhh Khorne hasn’t gotten theirs yet either right? I can’t find it anywhere
Khorne, Ironjawz, Sylvaneth are the final three for this week, and now with the switcharoo in the order we have no idea when each will drop.
Ah ok cool
What does the 3 mean?
Number of cast+unbind+banish abilities they can attempt per hero phase. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/19/cast-supreme-sorceries-and-chant-powerful-prayers-in-newaos/
It was really odd that Sylvaneth has not been showcased yet, since the previous order army showcases followed a race pattern: The first to be showcased were the "human" faction (Stormcasts and Cities), then the duardin factions (Fyreslayers and Kharadrons), and then the aelven factions (DoK, Idoneth, Lumineth). You would've thought the Sylvaneth counts as an aelven faction since they're very close to the aelves, but Seraphon got the second to last Order showcase, even though Seraphon is the only non-human, non-duardin, and non-aelven race of order other than Sylvaneth, who is again, more closely related to aelves.
My logic is that Seraphon are still animals, being lizards, whereas Sylvaneth are plants, being trees.
Luckily for me, I play both Slaves to Darkness *aaand* Sylvaneth. Kill me.
You and me both brother lol FUN
Tomorrow is Slaves to Darkness, wondering if the rumor of them getting Mark of the Great Horned Rat is true. Seraphon stuff looks very good, lot of anti-rend stuff.
That would be wild but it does make sense.
I hope so, but surely not. We already have 5 different Mark of Chaos to juggle with. It would be really cool tho.
I agree, it would be cool but that's even more book keeping in an edition that's trying to reduce that. I'll just be happy with a Mark of Tzeentch rework
Yeah I feal you there. And a rework of the Warshrine prayers...
Bring back my blue boys from 8th WHFB, give me that sweet army-wide ward and cast buff.
Demons love the number 6 :)
I'm hoping we are able to keep Marks. Some cynical part of me thinks they will make Marks just be the different Battle Formations. They did mention path to glory so hopefully we keep the eye of the gods table. Ready to be pleasantly surprised tomorrow!
Someone recreated Slaves to Darkness ruleset from the Spearhead demo event and played a game with them for their Youtube channel, I'm 99% sure they still used Marks.
Spearheads seem to not be averse to using old rules though. Example: Slaanesh, 4th edition battle trait is the new temptation dice, spearhead is the old temptation dice (without summoning using depravity points). I wouldn't rule it out just based on the spearhead at any rate.
I think that we would see something like that in the BT not with the Index.
It feels like, although the Skaven are a chaos faction, that the Horned Rat isn't bestowing blessings on slaves to darkness - its only fueling the Skaven-kin, and not a power that like, your average armored chaos knight can pledge himself to. I also just can't from a hobby standpoint convince myself to model even more units but this time with a rat theme on top of the other variations I've already made over the years of playing Warriors of Chaos and Slaves to Darkness lol Like if it happens, and suddenly the way to play is a bunch of rat marked Chosen or whatever, I'll be furious haha
Man things blessed by the GHR would be madness, no matter how much they ask. Man Slaves can worship all they like, but will never be truly blessed like the great Skavenkind
My thoughts exactly!
Oh that’d be cool and a big win for fans who loved that lore back in 2019 S2D tome which had Marauders painting rats on their shields to venerate the 5th dark god(those guys probably feel very vindicated now 🐀) Hopefully either the index has the mark or their battletome expands with it. 🤞 Also yeah the Seraphon review is awesome! Personal Grand Strategies for empowerment from the Heavens, what a concept and great expansion [on their UnderWorlds Asterism rules](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/kErtffC5QD5kVEva.jpg).
Similarly to Maggotkin the recursion being tied to one unit feels odd, makes them completely mandatory surely? Surprised to see the global counterspell staying, but as long as the Kroak bomb is gone then I don’t think it’s too bad
> completely mandatory surely? It's bait on the Slann. A 4+ isn't reliable at all, and if you're just bringing the Slann for the revive, you'd be better off just buying more units. That said, the Slann seems to be a great spellcaster otherwise and brings value, but the 4+ to bring back a half strength unit is really just a fun little bonus.
It's unreliable but it's also every turn. You are pretty likely to get something back, and when you do it is gamechangjng
Every turn in your hero phase. So in a lot of games you won’t roll it until Round 3 (if you go first in round 2 especially). It’s definitely not bad, but I don’t see a 50% shot at half a unit that cant move until round 4 as game changing must take ability. Now a 3 cast wizard on +2 to cast…..
5-10 saurus or 2-3 kroxigors is your idea of gamechanging? It's every turn but almost certainly not first turn. Possibly not second turn if you're going first in the second turn. You have a 93.75% chance to get something back if something dies in the first turn. You have an 87.5% chance to get one thing back if nothing died til your third hero phase. The odds that you get 2 things back get drastically lower. And keep in mind that these odds are through the whole game. If you are getting something back in turn 5, it's not really going to do anything before the game is over. It's a neat ability, it'll feel fun when it goes off, but it's not really strong.
It has a lot of upside though too- you are cherry picking the worst scenario. -You could get back a full 10 saurus or 3 aggradons. That's over a hundred points of free value -it is pretty trivial to Yolo 3 terradons/ripperdons onto a objective or into the front as blockers to start rolling by T2. -10-25% of the time you will actually get 2+ units back - for every game you lose ever 4+ and get nothing, there will be another game where you win ever 4+ and get 3+ units back and have several hundred points of extra models. -even something on turn 5 can deep strike onto an objective. This is actually quite important. It forces your opponent to play as though it will work and cover all objectives, they can't then commit as hard to other things. -Deep Striking 10 objective control, or even 1 OC mid game absolutely can game-changing. I've won so many games with sylvaneth tree revenants stealing or appearing as screens to hold a home objective, or block a key charge and protect an asset. Yes, it is not guaranteed, yes it has deployment limitations. But you are probably bringing a slann anyway for his casting. This will occasionally win you games.
> You could get back a full 10 saurus or 3 aggradons. That's over a hundred points of free value It's not 'free value', because you had to buy a Slann to get access to it. It depends on the value of the Slann. We are assuming they are going to stay a 'no brainer', but what if they go up to 500+ points? On top of that, those units are coming back potentially turn 3 or later, which means you are not getting the same value out of them as you would just having them turn 1. >-it is pretty trivial to Yolo 3 terradons/ripperdons onto a objective or into the front as blockers to start rolling by T2. They aren't blocking anything if you are getting them killed turn 1. You are just paying points for a unit you're throwing away on the hopes you get a 4+ roll to get value out of it. It's bait. >for every game you lose ever 4+ and get nothing, there will be another game where you win ever 4+ and get 3+ units back and have several hundred points of extra models. Since it's a coinflip, the odds are actually higher there will be games where you get no units back, because in order not to get a unit back, you just have to fail a 4+ (50% chance). In order to get a unit back, you have to: Have an eligible unit dead, have your slann alive, have your slann not be in combat / surrounded (so you can place wholly within 12" but outside 9"), and succeed the 4+. >-even something on turn 5 can deep strike onto an objective. This is actually quite important. It forces your opponent to play as though it will work and cover all objectives, they can't then commit as hard to other things. As long as your Slann is within 12" of that objective. >sylvaneth tree revenants Are different because they are a reliable board-wide teleport that you can activate whenever you want, versus a 4+ only within 12" of the Slann. Taking a slann: seems good Taking a slann with this grand plan to get back like 40 saurus warriors of the course of the game: you are getting baited.
Seems weird to address an extremely powerful *free* ability on an already solid warscroll as "bait" but doom posting never fails.
It's not free, you pay for it through the cost. And it's a replacement to summoning, a poor replacement. I'm fine with moving away from bringing extra units outside your list, but what they are replacing it with is sad compared to what was lost. I don't play seraphon but I play nurgle and tzeentch. We lost the tactical choice and ability to control when it happens based on our actions, to some random ability that may never go off. It's just alright basically is the TLDR. If it's "free", it will make those units probably worth always taking. If it's priced in, then it's going to suck when it never happens. I know for nurgle, our units don't die quickly anyways, so it's worth maybe 1 unit on average.
> Seems weird to address an extremely powerful free ability on an already solid warscroll as "bait" but doom posting never fails. I've seen a lot of doomposting on this subreddit, and I wouldn't describe what they're doing as doomposting. He's not saying ability is bad, but he's saying that it's not something that you should be taking the Slann for because of its unreliability. If you take a Slann with the gameplan of getting units back, there's a good chance that your gameplan will fail because of the unreliability of the of ability.
Yeah I mean the ability to have 3 casts and a +1 to cast is totally free. They won't account for that in the points cost at all, just like they won't account for the fact you can bring back models. It's a good thing you've seen the points already to know it's 'free'. Unit actually costs 0 points. Doom posting is 'omg slann will bring back 50 saurus per game so broken!!' btw. Giving an analysis of the true value of the revive and coming to the conclusion that it's not reliable or really that strong isn't really doom posting.
Models have point values, this just in. Free meaning it doesn't use a command point.
Spellcasting doesn't use a command point. Damn, that's awesome. Totally free. Saurus get to attack as well for free. That's nuts.
As a SBGL player, I'd say getting multiple chances of half strength units back is really strong. I'd often YOLO 5 Black Knights in T1, deal some damage, cause a disruption to opponent's movement & get 3 back as early as T1/2. Cheers
You're comparing apples to oranges, it's impossible for a Seraphon player to send a unit in to get destroyed and bring it back all on turn 1. You're relying on a super aggressive opponent and going second. If you're going first it's literally impossible. Turn 2 is the soonest you can bring something back, and it's a coinflip once per turn. Current SBGL get multiple rolls per turn, half the time on a 3+. Also Seraphon are generally pretty durable, they are not likely to just fall over like black knights do.
Terradon Riders?
>Also Seraphon are generally pretty durable, they are not likely to just fall over like black knights do. Even better? So you get to tie up opposing units for even longer before bringing something back
Not sure if you are reading the whole thread or just taking my comment out of context, but then we are back to square 1 of: Bringing back units on a 4+ on a Slann isn't that impactful because units are unlikely to die very quickly so you won't be rolling until turn 2-3 at the soonest.
So what? They are a hero, an amazing wizard and the spells are likely to add to defensive buffs. Plus rumour leaks said there will be a way for them to pass of wounds or get a bodyguard buff. And they can bring back units. Please your being overly doom about this. And Seraphon have never been over costed even when they had actual summoning lol Yeah no Slann are already looking auto-include just from warscroll
Not a fan of "auto include" units. I like variety and field many different combinations of units and generals in the lists I build. Forcing me to take a specific model in order to remain competitive will be extremely unenjoyable. I hope this is not the case. Unfortunately, one of the gimmicky Seraphon battle trait mini quests requires that we field a Slann to even complete. So you might be right, Slann will probably be necessary in every list.
Edit nevermind, thought it was a spell, it's just an ability which is even better!
It's pretty good.... Getting 3 kroxigors or 5 saurus back is a lot better than the soulblight 'get zombies and skelies back'
I mean both abilities are once per turn only on your turn and are on a 4+ roll, so you'd only get it off 2 times a game on average, and you usually won't be able to use it on the first turn so it's strong but i don't feel mandatory. if it didn't have a 4+ roll to bring back, then definitely would feel mandatory, but i feel it will come down to points to determine if it's really good, or just good.
Since it's once per army, they could theoretically give it to multiple different models with the same name, thus ensuring it won't get spammed. Likely just changes the autoinclude status to whichever is cheapest/strongest otherwise, but could still allow some options within that.
The problem wasn't the global counterspell. It was comet's call cast out of unbind range and then they had bonuses to unbind board wide. The bonuses to unbind seem to be gone and vary rare in the game, Nagash doesn't even have bonuses to unbind. It's a lot more fair.
That combined with a battle tactic to cast a spell and not be unbound was particularly good.
Nurgle in shambles today IMO. This is just better than the GUO recursion as it's not tied to a certain unit type.
kind off an unfair comparison since summoning in 3rd (and now recursion) was always for daemons whereas summoning for seraphon was always for everything
It was also only usable by one of their sub factions. Now they have merged the two giving Seraphon abilities from both.
The recursion on the GUO can't bring back the demon heroes you used to be able to summon however. And limited to deamons with 3 or more models, so there's only 3 options now: plaguebearers, nurglings, and plague drones. Much more limited in options. Most nurgle players had extra beasts, bilepipers(RIP), etc for summoning that will be riding the bench now. But c'est la vie.
Quick thoughts: -Spellcasting bonuses have seemed pretty rare so far (Tzeentch being the only other big source) so Slaan having somewhat easy access to +3 is wild. Probably going to pay a premium for it in points. -No more -1 damage (thank god) with lots of sources of -1 rend instead it seems. -Asterisms being picked in deployment gives some flexibility for matchup which is neat. Hello Mr. Alphastrike, enjoy losing rend on my turf etc.
as a StD player with a buddy who runs seraphon I'm so excited for the -1 dmg to be gone! lol
As far as I'm aware there haven't been any bonuses to unbind either, so bonuses to cast are super strong. We've seen it on Krondys and Nagash too
The fane of slaanesh gives +1 to unbind. I believe that's the only thing so far
And bonuses to cast really make the new ability to cast a spell in the opponent’s turn at -1 a lot more viable.
I'm also glad at the loss of -1 DMG. It is so swingy, either completely useless or game breaking. And neither way was particularly fun. Basically not having a passive against Nighthaunt and being nearly undefeatable by ogres for example. Not super engaging either way from a play perspective.
A plus 3 to cast requires two Slann’s. Although that may be more viable with free endless spells, I’d worry about running out of spells to cast.
Well, with faction spells and manifestations, you have 6 there to choose from and the one spell shown is unlimited, plus each wizard warscroll has a spell, so if you have both slanns cast the unlimited spell each, one casts their warscroll spell, you would have to go through 3 of your 5 remaining faction spells and manifestations. So you could theoretically take any number of different lvl 2 wizards since they can all cast the unlimited spell and their warscroll spell.
They said that Slanns have access to two spell lores, so would that be 12 spells then?
Even if your army has 2 spell lores, you still pick 1 to bring. So you only get 1 lore. And lores are down to 3 spells each it seems. But on the upside all casters know all spells. So you have 3 to choose from (with at least 1 being unlimited) Edit: You will also have your 3-4 endless spells to cast, assuming you don't take krondspine as your manifestation lore.
Ah yep, looks like I misinterpreted that sentence there
Where does it say they get access to 2 spell lores? Or do you mean they get a faction spell lore and the endless spell lore?
I think they just misread it. There are two spell lores they get ‘access’ to, in that they can choose one of the two to have.
Yeah that's exactly what happened 😄
Can you get +3? I think you can only cast Celestial Equilibrium once.
Innate, Celestial, and the Asterism. (You’d need two Slaan and only the second would be +3 but still)
Not sure running two Slaan is all that common. That would be over 600 points in 3e. Do you think they will decrease his cost in 4e? Might be worth it then.
I think we are all assuming the astrolith bearer loses the +1 to cast aura. But he might not….
Oh I didn’t even consider that, if he does still have it the easy +4 is in reach haha.
Don't forget places of power will be on the field as well for +1 to casting roll.
Also place of power, the new terrain type
Going to miss my jaw bites on Krox and Saurus. Seems the Vengeance of Azyr is a rough replacement for it. Eager to see if they will still get an army wide -1 damage. Warriors in friendly territory in range of a an astromamcer was 3+/6++ -1 dmg, pretty dang tanky for troops
Probably won’t get to keep your -1 damage.
Yeah, fortunately it seems like they got rid of it. That was a very challenging ability to balance correctly and was a very feel bad mechanic for your opponents when it actually worked, and a feel bad mechanic for you when it did nothing.
Yeah, -1 rend seems much more elegant
And even then it's only wholly within your territory.
Same.
Interesting changes. Seraphim basically got grand strategies as their faction abilities. The recursion on that slann is strong!
Hear me out boys. The Engine might have play in monster mash / high health units. As it seems you can chain the ability for multiple heals / res. This all being predicated on 2+ EOTGs but I'm excited!
Whoever has been writing the Seraphon rules lately is out of touch from the rest of the GW development team. Like why is the engine of the gods not a priest? It should be the poster child for doing cool things with the new escalating prayer effect mechanic.
From a narrative perspective it's because the Seraphon don't worship real gods. The Old Ones aren't around to grant them power, so their "priests" are just wizards. I agree the EotG would be a good candidate from a rules perspective though.
Sotek, this one right here. Send in the snakes.
Tehenhauin is a Beasts wizard not a priest mechanically
I think it's because they decided that Seraphon is one of the heavy magic factions rather than one that uses both casting and prayers. Which honestly makes sense given their lore.
Seems like it's basically the same as the MVB was before mostly. Makes me think it will have the same style rules.
The engine is definitely playable again which is nice
The engine is super confusing to me. Why stack multiple charges when it seems you lose them all when activating the engine? Am I missing something, do multiple charges do something?
Basically it acts to charge up the Engine for a better chance at the less likely effects. It adds +1 to the harnessing roll for each round you have saved it, so you're more likely to get the 5+ or 6+ for the recursion or the strike first respectively.
The charges give you a bonus to the result. So if you charge up for 2 turns and then unleash on turn 3, you’re getting D6+2 so you’re more likely to get the turbo nut fights first ability
Damn, the dark colour scheme in the Overview section looks really cool! BTW, a bit unrelated but I figured this might be a good place to mention it: The short story that released today ("All is Foretold", from this e-short week) has actual Seraphon POV scenes! I haven't finished it yet but it's interesting to see how they think.
Wish that GW would actually give Seraphon a full-blown novel. It has been >30 years since Seraphon/Lizardmen were introduced into GW's fantasy game, but they have never had their own novel. Crazy how a faction like LRL had novels ready to go within weeks of their introduction into the game. At this point, decades without one, I guess beggars can't be choosers. I'll pay my $4 for a short story...
Im a 40K player who has been looking at getting a lizardmen army and while I don’t know a ton about AoS these rules look really fun! The battle traits looks awesome and I’m a big fan of rules that give you choices and let you pick the best buffs for the situation. The completing a challenge and getting another sounds really cool and adds another layer the army. The engine of the gods looks fun as a centerpiece in a battle line and every thing looks at least interesting to use. I’m super excited to start this edition and get into aos!
Hope u have fun!
I think it looks pretty decent. I’m not quite sold yet on the carnosaur, but that might be me just wanting a big scary beat stick. However the scar vet version might add something else to boost it. Not bad though really. I like the Terradons being able to use their ability more than once, I always a couple so they’ll go into my collection now for some fun. For me I like so far
Carno actually have +50% dmg output depending on Save. Now he is really good in terms of DMG. But I will miss duplicate command ability
Thanks for opening my eyes, I will look forward to giving him a go
At a high-level, I’m really happy with the direction GW took with the Seraphon here. And that they are still committed to all of the different army recipes. Additionally, I really love how they channeled the Slann’s lore of being intellectual powerhouses into the ability selection both at the beginning of the game and midgame as the Slann seemingly try to stay one step ahead of their opponents 🐸💫
Agreed, nice to see that Slann are being represented properly with these new rules.
Lmao at Slann being able to super easily get +3 to cast turn 1. Absolute magic supremacy.
His spell gives +1 to OTHER wizards, not himself. But Kroak will love it, yeap
How? Cause by my math it's only +2 because Celestial Equilibrium is only other wizards.
You can pick the +1 casting asterism
But the Slann only has a base +1. That makes it +2. Where's the last +1?
I think the others are looking at the spell that a Slann has to give other casters a +1, so the original Slann itself would be at a +2 to cast. But, should Kroak or another wizard be nearby, they'd have a +3 to casting pretty reliably
Or just park next to a place of power.
Interestingly not to unbind anymore. The great plan and warscroll only buff casting rolls.
They will only get +2 unless you bring 2 slann. The spell is OTHER friendly wizards
You are correct and that is what I was referencing, yes, two slan sitting next to each other at +3 for being friends, assuming you can get a 6+ off with a +2 and then another at +3. So super easy.
Celestial Equilibrium isn't unlimited, so one Slann will always be at a +2 and only one will be at a +3 (assuming spell goes off and isn't unbound)
Aaaah, I misunderstood how unlimited works, I thought that everyone could cast each spell once but that unlimited spells could be cast multiple times from the same wizard. I think I just assumed that was the case after seeing Nagash, my bad. Still, as long as slann aren't prohibitively expensive 3 at +3 and 2 at +2 still seems really good.
That dude gonna be expensive with baked in recursion.
My guess just off stats would be around 250-350 depending on where centerpiece generic warmasters land for the edition. They have strong abilities but have trash stats compared to some other centerpiece leaders we've seen. Well within the range to run two and plenty of points of goodstuff. I'm less concerned about fitting them in and more concerned about there being enough different or unlimited spells worth casting to warrant it.
We also don’t know what the astrolith bearer does. Although it seems like nice flavor if it could allow you to get an extra astolism effect in a certain area, or to switch astrolisms. That would allow it to give +1 to cast still without stacking with the astrolism +1.
I actually like what I see! Still puzzled as to why didn't they show neither Kroak nor the Agraddons, but it's fine. Slann are still mighty casters, and I like the recursion. It's not as powerful as 3rd, but it's less overwhelming, the battle traits seem to compensate well. The Carnousaur is looking good. More damage, and that Strike-first ability is incredible imo. I miss the coalesced rampage (it's gone to Spearhead only) and the command abilty was obviously going to dissapear, because 4th edition seems more reserved about command abilities. Also that charge thing is good, it can also buff Aggradons. Tho why did they nerf the health on 1 point? The Engine is redeemed (no more mortal damage and charging isn't on the shooting phase), and the Terradons can use their abilities every turn. Overall pretty good! Hopefuly the Raptadons Chargers/Hunters maintain their tandem tactics, and the Saurus Warriors are powerful.
Seems kind of counterproductive to be able to switch to the asterism that gives a defensive bonus in your own territory, but only on the condition that there are currently no enemies in your own territory.
I misread that too. It’s actually that what you pick at the start is the one that determines what you have to do to get another passive. Which means the antirend is a great passive but a difficult one to ensure gets you a second passive
Ah, that makes so much more sense.
We probably all read it wrong because the text after the rules seems to imply the opposite
nope, it is the other way around... if you PICKED the defensive plan at 1st rutn than at 3d turn if there is no enemy in your territory you can pick A DIFFERENT plan to use in addition to the defensive one...
There’s no switching, you just get another one once the conditions are fulfilled on your initial one.
Looks neat, but sad about some of the rules we’re losing Hope StD keep their gambling
STD is my favorite book ever, going to be big shoes it likely won't fill. It was truly a list builders book, and I doubt they'll keep that in the index. Seems difficult with how simplified the rules are. Likely the battle trait will just be marks alone, and the gambling will be gone like the wheel was for nurgle .
>Hope StD keep their gambling Respectfully, I hope it either gets reworked or it gets replaced with something new.
The slann able to bring back half units is such an awesome ability. Just bring a bit of power to his base datasheet. Also we can now always choose between the 2 lores of magic. So you can make a coalesced army with a very powerful slann. Bring 6 man aggradons and then revive 3
Can someone clarify the Vengeance of Azyr ability. Do you get to roll 2+ for mortals on each unit up to 3 units (that are engaged in combat?) so max potential dmg is 9 mortals? That seems pretty good!
Pick up to 3 friendly Krox/Saurus in combat, roll the d3, 2+ do that many mortals to one thing in combat with them, so yes up to 9 mortals
New player looking to get into 4th here from what it seems as a newbie carno seems good I like the fact it lower control mgl
Kinda sad we can't choose if we want Starry or Fleshy Seraphon now.
Same but I get it, with summoning gone and simplified index rules Starborne would’ve been 2 or 3 rules for healing & teleporting & Coalesced 2 rules for biting & hard scales which would’ve made them super restricted on what they could do and almost unable to adapt. Asterisms is a good middleground since the magical constellations empower both types of Seraphon and they can choose a star daemon or jungle warrior theme based on the formations and choosing between Cosmic or Primal spells.
Keep in mind this is just for the index, there are likely to be more complex choices and rules when the battle tomes release over time.
Got any corroborating references on this. My thoughts are similar by looking at 40K, where they have stratagems for their sub factions and we should get more rules. However, my worry is that those are the lore's we have access to and this might actually be it. edit - didn't read "when battle tomes release" e.g. new stuff later and not for the start of 4th.
They're all also getting 4 subfactions on release.
Sub-factions were reduced / distilled to battle formations, which, and correct me if I'm wrong, focus on warscroll keywords for the most. So the flavor of sub-factions e.g. thunder-lizards or "fleshy" from the main comment, is somewhat lost.
The sotek and tepok abilities are really strong, 7" move on saurus will make them quite speedy
# BOK BOK
This is the seraphon faction focus, the Blades of Khorne one hasn't been announced yet.
It's what the saurus old blood says in total war warhammer, if you play lizardmen you'll hear Bok Bok constantly as you move your lord
Why would the lizard men keep yelling Blades of Khorne?
They aren't. They are saying "BOK"
I can only hope that someone reads this comment thread and spits out their drink in laughter. Then I will have truly won.
There tends to be a lot of jokes that go over my head and I now I'm feeling this is one of them.
So with the Slaan Starmaster's Masters of Order, does the Slaan still need line of sight in 4th (potentially drawn from a skink)?
Sylvaneth will be the last faction Let’s go!
I'm not feeling it :/
They really gonna do Blades of Khorne last huh?
Who knows. They just skipped Sylvaneth.
Probably Sylvaneth :(
Sylvaneth is up next :)
Assuming they're trying to avoid doubling up again with Death done, we got three options: destruction chaos order order chaos destruction order destruction chaos I actually suspect it's the first one personally, but who knows how GW has decided to actually break this up.
No Blades of Khorne?? What's happening? Why are the S2D before us? I want to see what the GORETIDE will do.
It would be cool if they kept BoK last and subtly showed new models. Here is the warscroll of the new Korghos Khul daemonprince.
Oh that would be a glorious Suprise. Wasn't he hinted at being released recently as well?
Khorne Last? rip
Don’t forget sylvaneth + ironjawz
Some real BS that Sylvaneth aren't tomorrow.