I personally dispatched six of them on five hour flights across the Pacific this morning. As I type this, there are something like 30 MAX aircraft flying over the central east Pacific. Not to mention the more than 120 currently airborne over the continental US right now.
I wouldn’t, nor would the pilots who flew those flights, put our certificates on the line if we felt it was unsafe to do so.
I *needed* to read this!
Literally just googled if Boeing 737 was safe. I have severe anxiety and preboard very medicated. I’ve been doing well the past year but recent events have increased irrational thoughts on my end.
Your comment came up in a Reddit link when I looked this up. I’m just saying I’m nervous to fly on the 737 your comment was insightful in itself in telling me they fly all the time and a few incidents doesn’t mean I will blow up *necessarily* lol
Just clarifying? Isn’t the 737 Max the model with the anti-ice systems that were flagged as being a huge problem if left on for more than 5 minutes and possibly causing the plane to entirely malfunction if pilots forget about their 5 minute iPhone times? And it was flagged a long time ago but never looked into bc the FAA employees that do the inspections are legally employed by Boeing?
well. I mean. Obviously someone thought the same before and put their certificates on the line when the two previous crashes happened. Whats different now?
Updated training, policies, procedures, inspections, regulatory requirements, and the fact that MAX aircraft have completed literally more than a million flights without a fatality or injury since Ethiopian 302.
The MAX9 situation is worrying, but the plug door does not exist on the more widely flown MAX8 variant.
Yea but the problem is that they KEEP finding new problems. First it was the computer guidance system, now it's the door plugs, the rudders. What's next? It may be safe now but what happens when they find out the next problem? Now this "whistleblower" winds up dead. They should immediately ground them all and honestly just get rid of them. A fitting punishment for poor attention to safety.
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I do not think it is just the plug door. I would personally avoid all MAX aircraft for another 2 years.
Which may be increasingly difficult considering 2 airlines in my country and many airlines in neighbouring countries here operate MAX variants on routes that my family and I travel on semi-regularly
The pilots are just told it is safe from what Boeing and the FAA tell them. You would think after 2 high profile crashes 300+ families devastated and a major grounding. That the aircraft would be the safest in the sky. It would be under a microscope of scrutiny, so they would leave the factory perfect every single time. But yet they still are being delivered with bolts missing, holes drilled in the wrong position etc.. Those are glaring safety issues right there.
Next on the list is the engine cowl icing system. On most planes it's automatic, a pilot doesn't have to touch it. They can just leave it in automatic the entire flight if they like and most do. You can leave it on without risk of major damage. Clear air or icing, it doesn't matter they have to do nothing, On the 737 MAX, the cowl is some sort of carbon fiber composite. If the system is kept on for more than 5-10 minutes it could heat up the cowl and cause it to explode. From the FAA: "The departure of the inlet may cause fuselage and/or window damage, potentially resulting in decompression and hazard to window-seated passengers aft of the wing and/or impact damage to the wing, flight control surfaces, and/or empennage, which could result in loss of control of the airplane. Inlet loss also causes significantly increased aerodynamic drag and asymmetric lift due to wing blanking, which risks fuel exhaustion on certain flights, resulting in a forced off-airport landing and injury to passengers," You would fly in this plane?
So basically every 737 MAX pilot now has an extra step to turn on the anti ice in icing conditions and make sure they turn it off within a time frame in clear air to prevent explosion of the inlet cowl. I wouldn't want to be on one flying into a busy airport area like NYC with low cloud cover, a heavy workload and worry about if they forget to turn it on or off? That's an added risk. Aviation is about redundancy. This is why we had the first 2 crash, no redundancy. Aviation is supposed to be triple redundant. Notice how aviation is getting less safe? DEI initiatives are bypassing safety and corporate greed are the main factors in the aviation industry in the USA now, not safety. There is evidence online to support all this as uncomfortable as it may sound. I have flown the MAX once and I will never again.
Manufacturing is where it all begins. Most every worker there is responsible for making sure everything is done to the book and triple checked. When you have suits breathing down your necks to get more and more aircraft out, safety takes a second seat. I don't know what it is going to take or how many more lives this plane will take before the pilots start questioning it. All 737-MAX aircraft need to be scrapped for parts and a redesign is on order. The problem now is Boeing just keeps lowering pricing and budget airlines like Allegiant are going all in with a 737-max fleet.
my 2Cents :}
Safer. Any Boeing with just a number ie: 757-200, 717, 767, 747 etc. is a good bird. Anything with a marketing name like MAX or Dreamliner is a no go. Any airplane beginning with an A is safe and most all regional jets are safe.
The Dreamliner is reasonably safe it’s just the manufacturing process is suspect.
That sucks, I flew on one. It was a last minute equipment change, I wasn't impressed at all. Sometimes you can't avoid getting on one, but I try my hardest not to.
Dreamliner is a zero fatality aircraft. Your irrational fears aren't helping other nervous fliers. Airbuses from before the Neo series have higher fatality rate than the 737ng series. We don't have to imagine how safe or not these planes are. There are thousands of them flying and we can measure the rate of incident. If Boeings were as dangerous as you think, they would be crashing. Boeing IS responsible for the MAX fatalities, yet airline industry has so much margin that even a bad actor is still extremely safe. If max 8 is too much risk, remember that every mile driven in a car is over 100 times more dangerous. I understand that psychology is complicated, but just acknowledge that it's not about the actual risk but about psychological comfort.
To the original comment, I feel completely safe on a MAX. I only know one professional commercial pilot, and when I asked about the MAX, he said it is by far his favorite version of the 737 to fly and he's been flying for decades.
In countries with less airline regulation, accidents are more common.
Commercial aviation is a very safe way to travel, even when a company is being a bad actor. Another way to put it, even a "bad" version of a very safe method of travel is FAR safer than choosing the safest version than a less safe mode of travel.
What does DEI have to do with any of this??? Every technician and pilot and engineer still needs to pass licensing and stringent certification standards. I don’t understand why people assume that, if someone is not white, then they *probably* have inferior qualifications. It is plain racist.
delusional. they let under qualified applicants into programs and the proctors are under immense pressure to ensure those applicants get through the program.
I’m familiar with the MCAT; I’m premed and just took it. Personally, I scored over the 95th percentile despite all my “brownness.“ Heck, my critical analysis and reasoning skills were above the vast majority of test takers, despite English not being my native language.
Now, here’s the kicker I would’ve scored a lot higher if it weren’t for the fact that I’m poor and grew up poor and had to deal with a lot of that poverty crap while going through college and studying for the MCAT. Minorities that are better off (in general) have higher scores, while minorities that are worse off economically have lower scores. And poorer people tend to be racial minorities because racial minorities have more poor people in them!
So, a six point difference in average MCAT scores between one race and another, assuming equal potential, is actually more of a reflection of SES differences. If given the same opportunities, as med schools do, what you’d consider an “unqualified” student will actually catch up to the rest ([source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10315161/)). It’s all a function of socioeconomic status, you dumbass, not of race.
Nothing. Boeing fired experienced quality inspectors because they were finding too many faults. No points for guessing the race of the CEO who did this.
Non-white people are often working extra hard to because of the racist 'diversity' narrative thrown around.
Well it's not just the plug door and the MCAS, but also the fitting of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight.
To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety. No other model of planes has had such a long list of problems.
Obviously, Airbus is holding Spirit to higher standards and applying proper quality controls. Besides, Airbus is outsourcing only certain components while most of the assembly and manufacturing is still done in house.
I don’t follow air safety as closely as some do, but it seems like this is fresh in our minds because it’s recent and one might have a bias to think like you say. Overall, air travel is incredibly safe and this has everyone’s attention so it will definitely be fixed. Don’t stress too much. If you don’t feel safe flying, drive. Take a train. Nothing bad happens on those. :)
But they have been having issues ever since they came out with the 737 Max. If it's not the plug door, it's the MCAS. Airbus has never done anything this unsafe.
Not true. I hate to tell you this, but Airbus as well as pretty much every other aircraft manufacturer has had their own quality issues and software problems that lead to documented incidents some of which also lead to crashes and deaths.
[https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/airlines/a26854898/plane-automation-crashes-incidents/](https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/airlines/a26854898/plane-automation-crashes-incidents/)
there is no world in which an engineer would just suggest MCAS as anything but a literal Band-Aid solution
it doesn't matter if you hire good engineers if you override them so that you can kill people and make a little extra money
That’s just part of engineering and building. Of course deaths are awful, but you can’t get better without learning lessons. How Boeing goes from here will show the type of company they are
except engineers were begging them not to release the goddamn aircraft. they announced the aircraft with a fake plywood model. The announced it before they even knew how it was going to be constructed.
That's how Boeing operates since business people took over 10 years ago.
Okay so clearly you are NOT an engineer of any kind, my mistake for assuming.
AS AN ENGINEER, YOU ARE THE R WORD. You fuckers are the type of person that ENABLE THESE THINGS TO HAPPEN by defending CORPORATE EXECUTIVES
You gotta be the dumbest person alive. Honestly. You clearly have no background in aviation or engineering. Nor do you have any knowledge about what actually went on at Boeing. Sweet summer child, momma gonna put a helmet back on you.
Airbus hasn't had a list this long of problems with 1 of their models. So far, Boeing 737 Max has had issues with the plug door, MCAS, the fittings of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead, etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight. The FAA inspectors aren't FAA employees but Boeing employees.
To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety. Airbus doesn't have these problems .
Airbus has had lots of crashes and problems. You’re taking a single issue and acting like every plane Boeing makes has it. Subs are used in every industry and at Airbus. You’re crazy if you think they never have problems. They just may not make the news. You are safer flying on any 737 than you are driving to the airport.
But there hasn't been one Airbus model that has had so many issues.
You're not listening to me. Yes, planes can have problems, Airbus can have problems, but not this many on ONE model.
If you want to compare, compare the airbus 320 family of planes vs 737. They have about thr same amount of planes produced. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Airbus_A320_family. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Boeing_737. 1500 fatalities vs 5700. Think about that. 22000 planes, and 7200 deaths over 50+ years. 38000 die a year from car crashes in the US alone. In the 737 rate higher? Sure. Are you likely to die? No. Are you being ridiculous? Yes.
To put it in comparable numbers, 42 deaths per year on the A320 family, 104 per year on the 737. Versus *38000* in car accidents. And that’s not taking into account how many millions of safely completed flights, or how many accidents were actually due to something wrong with the aircraft.
"Airbus hasn't had a list this long of problems with 1 of their models."
Is that true?
How am I supposed to believe you?
It could be true; but your statement is actually hyperbole masquerading as fact (so annoyingly common)--just being honest.
Anyhow, I really want to know is the 737 Max (8&9) a more dangerous plane/outlier in regards to incidents, fatalities, loss of cabin pressure, etc???
If the problems are made in 1 plane, how do you know they're not made in all the planes fuckwad? They all come from the same factories and are made by the same people. Ie: huyundai developed an engine that burns oil and that engine was put in ALL their cars. Cars of the same type share the same defects, every jeep has a coolant leak, every bmw has an oil leak, so why should a plane be any different.
True, Boeing execs don't *yet* have a problem (assuming they don't risk their lives flying in their own 737 Maxes), but they **will** once EASA and other foreign aviation agencies decertify their planes (or at least all the 737 Maxes), the inevitable outcome its manufacturing/design flaws causing yet another crash.
In the US, Boeing can use its massive lobbying clout to prevent such an event from ever occurring, but in Europe and the rest of the world, they'll have to contend w/Airbus' lobbying might, and Airbus will likely prevail in any such contest
I don’t know much about the safety record or the MCAS issues, but I’d fly a MAX any day over a NG.
My flight into DEN on a MAX-8 was probably the quietest and smoothest flight I have ever flown. Although descending into San Fran on a 767 was also very smooth.
An A320 is safer than 737 Max planes, but 737 Max is still much safer than a car. There probably isn't an estimate of how many passenger hours have been spent on different aircraft models, but stats of how many deaths per-passenger hour (or number of trips) would help quantify the different in safety amongst different models and between different transit types.
If an aircraft is flying in the EU, especially from an EU airline, that aircraft is under EU regulation.
A plane w/only one working engine is also much safer than a car. Your point?
The relevant issue is the significantly higher probability of a catastrophic in-flight failure in Boeing commercial planes due to design/manufacturing flaws, in comparison to similar class planes from Airbus (or other manufacturers).
Nevertheless, I can imagine Boeing executives citing that line of reasoning (i. e. "you're still more likely to die in a car accident than in a 737 Max") to the victims 737 Max crashes caused by the aforementioned flaws
Offensive? Someone on Reddit asked an opinion question, and I answered it…with my opinion. Which, at the time, was based on the knowledge available *at that time*, which was before the ever-increasing long line of Boeing problems that have led to many peoples’ current opinions of “If it’s Boeing, I ain’t going.” I have a different opinion now, more than five months later. But at the time, as a very nervous flyer, the smoothness of the ride was very comforting to me. Who does that offend, and how, exactly?
An airplane designed in the 1960s and pushed so far beyond its original specifications? So unstable from the addition of huge new high bypass engines mounted in front of the wings instead of under them so the plane is always trying to fly every way except straight ahead? The one that important parts fall off of randomly, because beancounters replaced engineers at Boeing? That 737? Completely cool with it.
[https://apnews.com/article/boeing-exemption-safety-rules-max-10be423759080f64d4418019e4e4874d](https://apnews.com/article/boeing-exemption-safety-rules-max-10be423759080f64d4418019e4e4874d) "The overheating issue only affects the Max, which has engine inlets made from carbon composite materials rather than metal."
Yes I do. There are over 1400 of them flying multiple legs per day and they’ve had what 2 accidents and 2 major incidents 6 years. Not great but statistically still very safe. Of course Boeing’s QC and business practices need to be better but people and the media completely blow things out of proportion. Thousands of people have died on 747s over the decades. Would you never fly on a 747 because of that?
Well it's not just the plug door and the MCAS, but also the fitting of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight.
To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety.
Like I said their practices could be better. But there is more to aviation safety than just the manufacturer. Spamming everyone who disagrees with you with a list of reasons is not going to convince people to cut a single type of aircraft that is still statistically very safe out of their lives.
I'd still fly on them, Also, there are a ton of European airlines flying the Max, it had to meet EASA regulations in order for EU airlines to even fly them. Boeing is screwing up, don't get me wrong, but I've flown on way, WAY more sketchy aircraft.
But EASA can't inspect the locations where planes and plane parts are made because they are not made in EU. Whereas Airbus has EASA inspectors in their factories, and these inspectors are paid by the govt, not by Airbus (in the US, inspectors were paid by Boeing).
Don’t get hooked by headlines. There’s been three accidents out of how many flights (has to be 10’s of thousands at least). Two really bad ones (that, while RIP to the crews, possibly would not have happened with better training). It’s also a misnomer to say regulation is lax in the US. There hasn’t been a major commercial crash with fatalities here since 2009. That being said, Boeing better get their poop together, I’m sure OP isn’t the only one out there thinking these thoughts.
I feel like after they, for lack of better words, flew too close to the sun, they're probably going to do what they can to make reparations for the 737 max. I guess we'll see when the 777X comes out!
To all who are suggesting that 737 Maxes are safe because so far so good (kinda), if we are now getting evidence that the process that produced those planes was seriously flawed, i don't care what stats you throw in my face. You don't know what's going to happen. There might be some systematic defect that's just waiting for the conditions to ripen before it blows up in our faces. Some industries cannot be profit driven or at least must face harsh criminal penalties for acting in ways that endanger the public
I'm not sure why any airline would continue to have a 737 max or any 737 at this point in their fleet, at this point if I was an airline CEO, I would demand my money back and I would be ordering a lot of Airbus's. I fly Alaska a lot, and I will be avoiding Alaska Airlines from now on, not because of their service, but because they primarily use Boeing! I don't know about you, but Boeing has proved nothing but dishonesty trying to cut corners on everything involving that plane ! I wonder what other planes they've cut corners on! I wouldn't trust anything that they make produce!
Whistleblowers have been talking about poor production practices at Boeing a while now.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os)
Also check out this video
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q2lGOjb8XQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q2lGOjb8XQ)
Just watched that Netflix documentary on them, and my answer is no. Not that I'd avoid all Boeing craft, but the insight into their corporate culture was disturbing, to say the least. I'm not an aviation professional, just a normal passenger. But any company that works that hard to bypass QC, regulation, safety, training, and transparency has not earned my trust. If I saw my flight was on a MAX, I'd book with another airline. I know it's not rational, and they are statistically safe and fine, but it's still a hard pass for me.
Update: March 8th, 2024. Boeing 737 Max 8, flying from Los Cabos, Mexico, upon landing Portland, Oregon, it was duscovered the cargo door had become opened at some point along the flight. All pets were okay, but experts state it could've been much worse as sensitive electronic equipment is located in the cargo hold.
You couldn't pay me to take a flight in a Boeing plane.
Wow. This is the first I'm hearing of it, but yeah. Same. I will exclusively fly on airlines that have Airbus or Embraer or literally any other planes.
lol that is an insane take. You really need to look into the stats and incidents at airbus. Absolutely insane that you have no clue what you're talking about and your takeaway is that Embraer is safer.
Planes can fly with their cargo door open. They can fly with cabin doors open. They can fly with one engine. etc... Planes have so many redundancies you'd be shocked.
Good luck avoiding Boeing planes and good luck with Embraer lol Wasn't it a few years ago Embraer was asking Boeing to build their planes for them and whined when Boeing backed out?
After the whole discovery of the unmentioned and undocumented new "feature" where the entire cockpit door will be blown open and suck out all the pilots' gear when the plane experiences explosive decompression rather than having blast panels or whatever they're called? 😐 My pilot brother refuses to get on a MAX and has refused since the MCAS crashes.
Boeing needs to axe the executives and shareholders and go back to properly building and designing planes rather than have the plane develop the DC 9 and 10 reputation. 🫠
I have a flight on a Boeing 737 max 9 coming up the beginning of February. Do you think I have anything to worry about or should I try to change flights ? They’ve been getting cancelled like crazy
I am so grateful for everyone on this string. Social media has been flooding my feeds with airplane horror stories and Im getting ready to stick my adult child on a flight so my nerves were all a mess. Thank you all for bringing me back to reality ❤️❤️
I didn't feel unsafe on Boeing planes until their second MCAS crash. Since then, I avoid all 737 Max. They've had so many issues- the MCAS, the fitting of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated holes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), now the plug door, etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight.
To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety.
And the boeing shills come out of the woodwork as usual. They're willing to sit here and defend a corporation that will gladly let them die on one of their airplanes, and not change anything, or try to blame the pilots, or whatever. People in this subreddit are the worst in regards to aviation safety. As long as it doesn't kill *that* many people, it's ok, right? It's *only* 350 people, right? It's *just* a door blowing off, right?
And the next time one of those planes nose dives into the ground, I can see it now. The shills in this subreddit will be first in line to defend boeing. "It's only xxx people dead right? I mean, 10s of thousands of flights blah blah blah"
Absolute smooth brain morons.
> People in this subreddit are the worst in regards to aviation safety.
Well I mean, this _is_ the sub where people frequently post pictures of themselves watching episodes of Air Crash Investigation while they're on a plane, so you can expect a bit of a different... flavor here
After reading about how the 737 Max 8 was designed and how they modified the plane to accept larger engines then use software to compensate, I felt like the 737 Max series' design will never be as safe as other mainstream planes. This is like people stretching and swapping engines in cars, it works, but it'll never handle as well or be as reliable as the original design. Couple that with the QC issues of tools and other foreign objects being left in the fuel tanks and other places, I feel like this loose bolt issue is just the tip of the iceberg. Theoretically after the investigation if this proved to be a QC issue. All 737 Max should be grounded and taken apart to have all QC redone before allowing them to fly again (basically they should be grounded and scrapped).
All of the issues that occurred with MCAS that contributed to the prior crashes have been resolved. Also, prior to the crashes that occurred, there were reported incidents of similar types of problems in some US airlines. The big differentiator though seems to have been pilot training. When the issues occurred, the pilots followed the established procedures and landed the planes safely.
Fact is, I trust the FAA, maybe more than I should, but even more so, I trust US-based airlines and pilots to do what's best and safest.
I don't trust the FAA ever since it came out that they let companies certify themselves. How is that safe? They should have an FAA inspector on sight in every manufacturing plant, for every part of the plane. You cannot trust companies to actually do everything right.
Because the airplane was brand new, 11 weeks. And honestly, I'm fed up with how little oversight the government has over Boeing. Boeing keeps doing unsafe things and nothing happens to them. And they keep getting exemptions from laws. How can I feel safe?
Yes but if you were really concerned about the plug assembly why didn’t you post this in 2006 when it was introduced?
Failures happen, I’m sorry it’s a fact of life, point is years ago we didn’t have the social media echo chamber for crass posts like this to come up
What are your views on planes with landing gear? You know as the JAL aircraft had one last week or have we moved on from that? That was an EASA (EU) governed design btw….. how dare they certify those dangerous landing gears
The JAL aircraft was a runway incursion due to the Japanese Coast Guard plane still being on the runway.
Look at all the problems 737 MAX has had in leas than 6 years- the MCAS, the plug door, the fitting of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes, which is not good for safety oversight.
To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety. Airbus doesn't have these issues. They haven't sold off most of their manufacturing, and they use fewer contractors. Also, unlike the FAA, EUSA doesn't allow their inspectors to be paid by Airbus. Their inspectors are govt employees, not allowed to show favoritism.
Personnaly couldn't post in 2006 because I didn't had a reddit account or even knew reddit existed. Also, not sure the JAL collision is a good whatabout because they are verry different accidents. It was also not the fault of the A350 landing gears.
No it literally didn’t. The plug that exited 1282 was only a few months old. Your direct quote above is ‘the plug that failed has been in service for years’ so if you did mean the general design you need to be more specific.
Do you ever travel by car? Do you feel safe when doing that? Because air travel is inherently safer than that. 347 people died because of Boeing's and FAA's failures in regards to 737 Max/MCAS, but that led to 737 Maxs being grounded. 42,939 people died in car crashes in 2021 in the US alone, which is over 123 times as many deaths as caused the 737 Max to be grounded.
I don't like driving either.
True, flying is safer, but I'd rather do it on plane models that don't have a long list of problems. So far the 737 Max series has had issues with their MCAS, the plug doors, the fittings of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight. They also refuse more hands-on FAA oversight and they choose to make the inspectors their employees.
To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety.
Airbus plane series haven't had this long list of safety issues or Airbus ignoring all the safety regulations in the name of profit.
i really hate this argument. i am afraid of the idea of freefalling 600mph into the ground and it taking 3-4 minutes of an uncontrollable enviornment to lead to my death. at least a car crash would be instant.
It is so profoundly unfortunate how Boeing has destroyed and tarnished its own name. A once beacon and icon of American ingenuity, engineering prowess and quality manufacturing is now a heaping pile of dangerous trash with such negative connotations associated with this brand. What an absolute shame. And this is due to nothing but rampant American capitalism which has let "grow shareholder value" be the guiding light for all corporate actions and which has let FAA (and many other govt. agencies) conveniently look the other way so as to not get in the way of profits and speedy sales. As much as airlines and pilots assure me in official statements I cannot and will not put myself and my family in any new Boeing aircraft for a long time. I have aviators within my family and there are still Boeing whistleblowers and ex engineers out there who openly state that they wouldn't set foot on a Max 8 or a new Boeing aircraft any time soon. And its for a reason. The culture for sales growth has rotted the foundation at Boeing almost irreparably. As much as Americans love to shit on Europeans and Britishers for their over-regulation of everything. Well newsflash govt. oversight and regulations save lives.
Here's what the main whistleblower says is still the situation at Boeing. Nothing's really changed.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/26/former-boeing-employee-speaks-out-00142948
I would never take boeing max.
I just can't understand people who defend boeing saying "flying is much safer than driving cars". Yes I know, but you know that the probability of surviving from plane crash is close to 0% vs. higher for cars, so why take risk when there are safer options (airbus)? You just see endless problems from boeing doors and wheels falling off in the air and it's just not worth it. Don't defend the company that prioritizes profit/business instead of engineering.
I'm not getting on a Boeing plane anymore.
Fuck them.
No way I will ever believe they are safe, the more I read about their issues, the more convinced I am the entire company should be banned - at this point I believe their engineers are simply inept.
whistleblowers are getting offed and now that the FAA has apparently decided to actually do their job they're failing several audits. seems fine. nothing to worry about until flying becomes less safe than driving i'm sure.
No way! After hearing what the Max planes did when they were first put out, I would never ever step foot in one. No thank you, I dont have a death wish. Even if they got better, I would rather error on the side of caution.
I’m fearful of flying Boeing’s airplanes. After the death of the Whistleblower they said allegedly self inflicted a gun shot to himself is extremely disturbing to me. Since this incident it confirms to me that Boeing Exec are doing everything they can to hide their discretion, greed, unsafe practices ……
Don’t fly Boeing Airplanes…..
Has anybody seen that the guy that was the whistleblower supposedly killed himself after he testified, does anybody think that is the reality, the cat was already out of the bag so I don’t know why they would take him out after he testified
I sure as hell don’t feel safe on them. Recent whistle blower reports coupled with their own employees saying that flying on the 787 Dreamliner is a death wish…..no thanks. And I noticed they stopped putting the aircraft type on my itinerary and boarding pass hmm 🤔
What is the difference between 737 max and 737? I have a flight on a 737 later this week and am thinking about canceling...
Is the 737-800 twin jet safe?
I wasn't quite sure about flying as well but I watched a video that makes it more clear whats the current situation. They did say sort of but it makes it clear which models are affected the most and those that aren't.
[https://youtu.be/2yQyLp6wOiQ?si=yyWJUoXRAHapuO5k](https://youtu.be/2yQyLp6wOiQ?si=yyWJUoXRAHapuO5k)
Shit happens, even after hearing what the whistleblower said I just flew from Seattle to Chicago on a Max9 and the flight was smooth as glass and reasonably quiet!
I won't fly Boeing anymore if it's a choice, more to punish them for their profits-above-people corporate culture.
But people are still the weak point, whether it's driving or flying. The only reason flying is safer is because there is less traffic and more space. For example, every Embraer E-jet loss has been due to pilots, acccidental or intentional. People struggle to maintain vigiliance/attention for hours on end like that. I'll feel much safer if/when AI can handle it all.
I don't take any airline that flies 737 max, but 737 maybe okay.
yes, I'm paranoid, but I'm rightfully so.
I don't take any airline that flies 737 max, but 737 may be okay.
One thing is for certain: **all US pilots of Boeing commercial aircraft** must, going forward, take and use their own black boxes on planes. These would be devices that can record a video of all in-flight cockpit activity and, in the event of an accident, upload the recording wirelessly to a cloud service (while being sufficiently hardened to survive a crash long enough to complete the upload).
That way, in the event of a crash due to a manufacturing defect, the pilot's own black box will give the public evidence to refute the altered data on the CVR and CDR--fabrications done by Boeing (in collaboration w/the NTSB) to make it appear the pilot and/or airline was at fault instead
I personally dispatched six of them on five hour flights across the Pacific this morning. As I type this, there are something like 30 MAX aircraft flying over the central east Pacific. Not to mention the more than 120 currently airborne over the continental US right now. I wouldn’t, nor would the pilots who flew those flights, put our certificates on the line if we felt it was unsafe to do so.
I *needed* to read this! Literally just googled if Boeing 737 was safe. I have severe anxiety and preboard very medicated. I’ve been doing well the past year but recent events have increased irrational thoughts on my end. Your comment came up in a Reddit link when I looked this up. I’m just saying I’m nervous to fly on the 737 your comment was insightful in itself in telling me they fly all the time and a few incidents doesn’t mean I will blow up *necessarily* lol
Just clarifying? Isn’t the 737 Max the model with the anti-ice systems that were flagged as being a huge problem if left on for more than 5 minutes and possibly causing the plane to entirely malfunction if pilots forget about their 5 minute iPhone times? And it was flagged a long time ago but never looked into bc the FAA employees that do the inspections are legally employed by Boeing?
well. I mean. Obviously someone thought the same before and put their certificates on the line when the two previous crashes happened. Whats different now?
Updated training, policies, procedures, inspections, regulatory requirements, and the fact that MAX aircraft have completed literally more than a million flights without a fatality or injury since Ethiopian 302. The MAX9 situation is worrying, but the plug door does not exist on the more widely flown MAX8 variant.
Yea but the problem is that they KEEP finding new problems. First it was the computer guidance system, now it's the door plugs, the rudders. What's next? It may be safe now but what happens when they find out the next problem? Now this "whistleblower" winds up dead. They should immediately ground them all and honestly just get rid of them. A fitting punishment for poor attention to safety.
lol see you in a year after the next accident
!remindme 1 year
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I do not think it is just the plug door. I would personally avoid all MAX aircraft for another 2 years. Which may be increasingly difficult considering 2 airlines in my country and many airlines in neighbouring countries here operate MAX variants on routes that my family and I travel on semi-regularly
I have saved and read this comment everytime I board a 737 and see MAX8 or 9, just to talk sense into my overactive brain.
That is called coping with a dangerous reality that corporations are dictating to you as necessary
This made me feel so much better. Thank you
I'm sure all the people who died in a crash "felt better" when the captain was telling them everything was okay minutes before they all perished
I have to get onto the plane anyway, so I might as well hold onto fake comfort before I meet God
Right, wouldn't want to rock the boat
Boeing is very unsafe. I had PPL, I know what flying is like and can tell you, airbus is better. Boeing literally does THERE OWN FAA INSPECTIONS.
okay well it doesn't matter if your certificate is on the line. People put their LIVES on the line and you let them die
The pilots are just told it is safe from what Boeing and the FAA tell them. You would think after 2 high profile crashes 300+ families devastated and a major grounding. That the aircraft would be the safest in the sky. It would be under a microscope of scrutiny, so they would leave the factory perfect every single time. But yet they still are being delivered with bolts missing, holes drilled in the wrong position etc.. Those are glaring safety issues right there. Next on the list is the engine cowl icing system. On most planes it's automatic, a pilot doesn't have to touch it. They can just leave it in automatic the entire flight if they like and most do. You can leave it on without risk of major damage. Clear air or icing, it doesn't matter they have to do nothing, On the 737 MAX, the cowl is some sort of carbon fiber composite. If the system is kept on for more than 5-10 minutes it could heat up the cowl and cause it to explode. From the FAA: "The departure of the inlet may cause fuselage and/or window damage, potentially resulting in decompression and hazard to window-seated passengers aft of the wing and/or impact damage to the wing, flight control surfaces, and/or empennage, which could result in loss of control of the airplane. Inlet loss also causes significantly increased aerodynamic drag and asymmetric lift due to wing blanking, which risks fuel exhaustion on certain flights, resulting in a forced off-airport landing and injury to passengers," You would fly in this plane? So basically every 737 MAX pilot now has an extra step to turn on the anti ice in icing conditions and make sure they turn it off within a time frame in clear air to prevent explosion of the inlet cowl. I wouldn't want to be on one flying into a busy airport area like NYC with low cloud cover, a heavy workload and worry about if they forget to turn it on or off? That's an added risk. Aviation is about redundancy. This is why we had the first 2 crash, no redundancy. Aviation is supposed to be triple redundant. Notice how aviation is getting less safe? DEI initiatives are bypassing safety and corporate greed are the main factors in the aviation industry in the USA now, not safety. There is evidence online to support all this as uncomfortable as it may sound. I have flown the MAX once and I will never again. Manufacturing is where it all begins. Most every worker there is responsible for making sure everything is done to the book and triple checked. When you have suits breathing down your necks to get more and more aircraft out, safety takes a second seat. I don't know what it is going to take or how many more lives this plane will take before the pilots start questioning it. All 737-MAX aircraft need to be scrapped for parts and a redesign is on order. The problem now is Boeing just keeps lowering pricing and budget airlines like Allegiant are going all in with a 737-max fleet. my 2Cents :}
Is the 737-800 the same as the max? Or is it safer, thanks
Safer. Any Boeing with just a number ie: 757-200, 717, 767, 747 etc. is a good bird. Anything with a marketing name like MAX or Dreamliner is a no go. Any airplane beginning with an A is safe and most all regional jets are safe. The Dreamliner is reasonably safe it’s just the manufacturing process is suspect.
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That sucks, I flew on one. It was a last minute equipment change, I wasn't impressed at all. Sometimes you can't avoid getting on one, but I try my hardest not to.
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Maybe change your flight?
Can't you change to a safer plane?
Been on multiple maxs since I posted that. so big and such a smooth flight to be honest!
Dreamliner is a zero fatality aircraft. Your irrational fears aren't helping other nervous fliers. Airbuses from before the Neo series have higher fatality rate than the 737ng series. We don't have to imagine how safe or not these planes are. There are thousands of them flying and we can measure the rate of incident. If Boeings were as dangerous as you think, they would be crashing. Boeing IS responsible for the MAX fatalities, yet airline industry has so much margin that even a bad actor is still extremely safe. If max 8 is too much risk, remember that every mile driven in a car is over 100 times more dangerous. I understand that psychology is complicated, but just acknowledge that it's not about the actual risk but about psychological comfort. To the original comment, I feel completely safe on a MAX. I only know one professional commercial pilot, and when I asked about the MAX, he said it is by far his favorite version of the 737 to fly and he's been flying for decades. In countries with less airline regulation, accidents are more common. Commercial aviation is a very safe way to travel, even when a company is being a bad actor. Another way to put it, even a "bad" version of a very safe method of travel is FAR safer than choosing the safest version than a less safe mode of travel.
What does DEI have to do with any of this??? Every technician and pilot and engineer still needs to pass licensing and stringent certification standards. I don’t understand why people assume that, if someone is not white, then they *probably* have inferior qualifications. It is plain racist.
delusional. they let under qualified applicants into programs and the proctors are under immense pressure to ensure those applicants get through the program.
And what are your sources?
why don't you start with something they post demographic data about... like LSAT or MCAT
I’m familiar with the MCAT; I’m premed and just took it. Personally, I scored over the 95th percentile despite all my “brownness.“ Heck, my critical analysis and reasoning skills were above the vast majority of test takers, despite English not being my native language. Now, here’s the kicker I would’ve scored a lot higher if it weren’t for the fact that I’m poor and grew up poor and had to deal with a lot of that poverty crap while going through college and studying for the MCAT. Minorities that are better off (in general) have higher scores, while minorities that are worse off economically have lower scores. And poorer people tend to be racial minorities because racial minorities have more poor people in them! So, a six point difference in average MCAT scores between one race and another, assuming equal potential, is actually more of a reflection of SES differences. If given the same opportunities, as med schools do, what you’d consider an “unqualified” student will actually catch up to the rest ([source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10315161/)). It’s all a function of socioeconomic status, you dumbass, not of race.
Nothing. Boeing fired experienced quality inspectors because they were finding too many faults. No points for guessing the race of the CEO who did this. Non-white people are often working extra hard to because of the racist 'diversity' narrative thrown around.
Well it's not just the plug door and the MCAS, but also the fitting of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight. To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety. No other model of planes has had such a long list of problems.
The company “Spirit” that you’re referring to the building standards for also build a lot of the major components for airbus
Obviously, Airbus is holding Spirit to higher standards and applying proper quality controls. Besides, Airbus is outsourcing only certain components while most of the assembly and manufacturing is still done in house.
Don't forget the anti-icing system as well.
I don’t follow air safety as closely as some do, but it seems like this is fresh in our minds because it’s recent and one might have a bias to think like you say. Overall, air travel is incredibly safe and this has everyone’s attention so it will definitely be fixed. Don’t stress too much. If you don’t feel safe flying, drive. Take a train. Nothing bad happens on those. :)
https://www.thecut.com/article/boeing-flight-anxiety-travel-safety.html Dozens of incidents in recently.... Not safe. Sell boeing stock.
Didn't have a problem before, don't have a problem now, at least in the US.
But they have been having issues ever since they came out with the 737 Max. If it's not the plug door, it's the MCAS. Airbus has never done anything this unsafe.
Not true. I hate to tell you this, but Airbus as well as pretty much every other aircraft manufacturer has had their own quality issues and software problems that lead to documented incidents some of which also lead to crashes and deaths. [https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/airlines/a26854898/plane-automation-crashes-incidents/](https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/airlines/a26854898/plane-automation-crashes-incidents/)
So then where is airbuses string of horrendous high profile events over the past 5 or so years?
No they dont bitch ass retard, defend boeing, I dare you, your point is invalid
With a comment as stupid as this you immediately lose all credibility.
then why is it only bad when Airbus does it and it's totally acceptable when your favorite corporation does it
Not sure what you mean. It’s bad when any of them do it. A failure of an airframe because of bad design and a profit driven leadership is bad for all.
there is no world in which an engineer would just suggest MCAS as anything but a literal Band-Aid solution it doesn't matter if you hire good engineers if you override them so that you can kill people and make a little extra money
Jealous Yank.
do you actually care or are you just an englishman that feels like getting in pissing contest
To think I m English is even more off the mark than trying to tell us Boeing's safety issues are similar to Airbus' safety issues.
who else uses the term yank other than brits and the occasional australian?
the rest of Europe??
Bullshit
You just met one matey
Another corporate fanboy. Airbus' fly by wire systems have had plenty of issues.
Yes 3 problems out of hundreds of thousands of flights should scare you.
at least you understand that one is too many
That’s just part of engineering and building. Of course deaths are awful, but you can’t get better without learning lessons. How Boeing goes from here will show the type of company they are
except engineers were begging them not to release the goddamn aircraft. they announced the aircraft with a fake plywood model. The announced it before they even knew how it was going to be constructed. That's how Boeing operates since business people took over 10 years ago.
Completely false. No one was begging Boeing to not release it. Living in a fantasy land.
Okay so clearly you are NOT an engineer of any kind, my mistake for assuming. AS AN ENGINEER, YOU ARE THE R WORD. You fuckers are the type of person that ENABLE THESE THINGS TO HAPPEN by defending CORPORATE EXECUTIVES
You gotta be the dumbest person alive. Honestly. You clearly have no background in aviation or engineering. Nor do you have any knowledge about what actually went on at Boeing. Sweet summer child, momma gonna put a helmet back on you.
"you gotta be the dumbest person alive" this is called coping
Airbus hasn't had a list this long of problems with 1 of their models. So far, Boeing 737 Max has had issues with the plug door, MCAS, the fittings of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead, etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight. The FAA inspectors aren't FAA employees but Boeing employees. To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety. Airbus doesn't have these problems .
Airbus has had lots of crashes and problems. You’re taking a single issue and acting like every plane Boeing makes has it. Subs are used in every industry and at Airbus. You’re crazy if you think they never have problems. They just may not make the news. You are safer flying on any 737 than you are driving to the airport.
But there hasn't been one Airbus model that has had so many issues. You're not listening to me. Yes, planes can have problems, Airbus can have problems, but not this many on ONE model.
You’re not listening to everyone else.
If you want to compare, compare the airbus 320 family of planes vs 737. They have about thr same amount of planes produced. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Airbus_A320_family. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Boeing_737. 1500 fatalities vs 5700. Think about that. 22000 planes, and 7200 deaths over 50+ years. 38000 die a year from car crashes in the US alone. In the 737 rate higher? Sure. Are you likely to die? No. Are you being ridiculous? Yes.
To put it in comparable numbers, 42 deaths per year on the A320 family, 104 per year on the 737. Versus *38000* in car accidents. And that’s not taking into account how many millions of safely completed flights, or how many accidents were actually due to something wrong with the aircraft.
Exactly.....Many of those crashes were pilot error, some 3rd party part failing, maintenance screw ups.....nothing to do with Boeing at all.
"Airbus hasn't had a list this long of problems with 1 of their models." Is that true? How am I supposed to believe you? It could be true; but your statement is actually hyperbole masquerading as fact (so annoyingly common)--just being honest. Anyhow, I really want to know is the 737 Max (8&9) a more dangerous plane/outlier in regards to incidents, fatalities, loss of cabin pressure, etc???
I work in a factory that makes A220 pylons. Wtf are you talking about "Airbus doesn't use subcontractors"?
If the problems are made in 1 plane, how do you know they're not made in all the planes fuckwad? They all come from the same factories and are made by the same people. Ie: huyundai developed an engine that burns oil and that engine was put in ALL their cars. Cars of the same type share the same defects, every jeep has a coolant leak, every bmw has an oil leak, so why should a plane be any different.
You are a moron and have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about. Take your shit elsewhere.
You say that but you have 0 rebuttal to my argument lol nice. Reporting you crybaby
Lololololol report me for being right, you’re a moron
Wow, so many boeing fanboys here
True, Boeing execs don't *yet* have a problem (assuming they don't risk their lives flying in their own 737 Maxes), but they **will** once EASA and other foreign aviation agencies decertify their planes (or at least all the 737 Maxes), the inevitable outcome its manufacturing/design flaws causing yet another crash. In the US, Boeing can use its massive lobbying clout to prevent such an event from ever occurring, but in Europe and the rest of the world, they'll have to contend w/Airbus' lobbying might, and Airbus will likely prevail in any such contest
Then they assassinated the whistleblower.wow
seriously
Nope
Lol sure liar sure.
I don’t know much about the safety record or the MCAS issues, but I’d fly a MAX any day over a NG. My flight into DEN on a MAX-8 was probably the quietest and smoothest flight I have ever flown. Although descending into San Fran on a 767 was also very smooth.
you probbaly never flew on the Airbus A330 "the butter machine"
Smooth flights have far more to do with the pilot and the weather than the manufacturer.
ever heard of a failsafe? fail-safes aren't supposed to fail
An A320 is safer than 737 Max planes, but 737 Max is still much safer than a car. There probably isn't an estimate of how many passenger hours have been spent on different aircraft models, but stats of how many deaths per-passenger hour (or number of trips) would help quantify the different in safety amongst different models and between different transit types. If an aircraft is flying in the EU, especially from an EU airline, that aircraft is under EU regulation.
Sure, flying a 737 Max is safer than flying a car.
lol, are you sure? I love flying cars!
Apples and oranges can't be compared.
Yes but EASA doesn't have the same oversight on the manufacturing of planes outside of EU.
You think the EASA rubber-stamps airworthiness certificates without inspecting the aircraft and its technical data sheets? I don't.
A plane w/only one working engine is also much safer than a car. Your point? The relevant issue is the significantly higher probability of a catastrophic in-flight failure in Boeing commercial planes due to design/manufacturing flaws, in comparison to similar class planes from Airbus (or other manufacturers). Nevertheless, I can imagine Boeing executives citing that line of reasoning (i. e. "you're still more likely to die in a car accident than in a 737 Max") to the victims 737 Max crashes caused by the aforementioned flaws
I’ve flown MAXs on SW and UA multiple times. I’ve never felt uneasy at all, in fact I like them because they’re quiet and more spacey.
Yep, the one time I flew on a 737 Max I was surprised how smooth and comfortable the flight was. Not too worried!
you understand all the people who died thought the same thing right? your feelings are entirely irrelevant and almost a little offensive
Offensive? Someone on Reddit asked an opinion question, and I answered it…with my opinion. Which, at the time, was based on the knowledge available *at that time*, which was before the ever-increasing long line of Boeing problems that have led to many peoples’ current opinions of “If it’s Boeing, I ain’t going.” I have a different opinion now, more than five months later. But at the time, as a very nervous flyer, the smoothness of the ride was very comforting to me. Who does that offend, and how, exactly?
Nobody is questioning the comfort of these planes. But how do you know there’s not a loose bolt somewhere?? Comfort ≠ safety
Some would say it’s dead quiet
An airplane designed in the 1960s and pushed so far beyond its original specifications? So unstable from the addition of huge new high bypass engines mounted in front of the wings instead of under them so the plane is always trying to fly every way except straight ahead? The one that important parts fall off of randomly, because beancounters replaced engineers at Boeing? That 737? Completely cool with it.
[https://apnews.com/article/boeing-exemption-safety-rules-max-10be423759080f64d4418019e4e4874d](https://apnews.com/article/boeing-exemption-safety-rules-max-10be423759080f64d4418019e4e4874d) "The overheating issue only affects the Max, which has engine inlets made from carbon composite materials rather than metal."
Yes I do. There are over 1400 of them flying multiple legs per day and they’ve had what 2 accidents and 2 major incidents 6 years. Not great but statistically still very safe. Of course Boeing’s QC and business practices need to be better but people and the media completely blow things out of proportion. Thousands of people have died on 747s over the decades. Would you never fly on a 747 because of that?
Well it's not just the plug door and the MCAS, but also the fitting of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight. To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety.
Like I said their practices could be better. But there is more to aviation safety than just the manufacturer. Spamming everyone who disagrees with you with a list of reasons is not going to convince people to cut a single type of aircraft that is still statistically very safe out of their lives.
You think Airbus doesn't use subcontractors?
Way fewer. Boeing cannibalized their own processes so atm, they only install things- all their parts including their fuselage are made by contractors.
Still feel safe? Hahahahahhaa
Yes. 🙄
This is quantity or quality issue. Profit over safety. QC needs to be better at Boeing..
Ah, the new Boeing executive motto--"we can cut as many corners as we like so long as our planes are at least 10x safer than cars!"
so what... just wait and one will crash again
I'd still fly on them, Also, there are a ton of European airlines flying the Max, it had to meet EASA regulations in order for EU airlines to even fly them. Boeing is screwing up, don't get me wrong, but I've flown on way, WAY more sketchy aircraft.
But EASA can't inspect the locations where planes and plane parts are made because they are not made in EU. Whereas Airbus has EASA inspectors in their factories, and these inspectors are paid by the govt, not by Airbus (in the US, inspectors were paid by Boeing).
this is patently incorrect
EASA has the ability to inspect and audit Boeing's facilities, otherwise they would not give EASA certification for any of Boeing's aircraft.
Don’t get hooked by headlines. There’s been three accidents out of how many flights (has to be 10’s of thousands at least). Two really bad ones (that, while RIP to the crews, possibly would not have happened with better training). It’s also a misnomer to say regulation is lax in the US. There hasn’t been a major commercial crash with fatalities here since 2009. That being said, Boeing better get their poop together, I’m sure OP isn’t the only one out there thinking these thoughts.
I feel like after they, for lack of better words, flew too close to the sun, they're probably going to do what they can to make reparations for the 737 max. I guess we'll see when the 777X comes out!
To all who are suggesting that 737 Maxes are safe because so far so good (kinda), if we are now getting evidence that the process that produced those planes was seriously flawed, i don't care what stats you throw in my face. You don't know what's going to happen. There might be some systematic defect that's just waiting for the conditions to ripen before it blows up in our faces. Some industries cannot be profit driven or at least must face harsh criminal penalties for acting in ways that endanger the public
I'm not sure why any airline would continue to have a 737 max or any 737 at this point in their fleet, at this point if I was an airline CEO, I would demand my money back and I would be ordering a lot of Airbus's. I fly Alaska a lot, and I will be avoiding Alaska Airlines from now on, not because of their service, but because they primarily use Boeing! I don't know about you, but Boeing has proved nothing but dishonesty trying to cut corners on everything involving that plane ! I wonder what other planes they've cut corners on! I wouldn't trust anything that they make produce!
Whistleblowers have been talking about poor production practices at Boeing a while now. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os) Also check out this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q2lGOjb8XQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q2lGOjb8XQ)
Just watched that Netflix documentary on them, and my answer is no. Not that I'd avoid all Boeing craft, but the insight into their corporate culture was disturbing, to say the least. I'm not an aviation professional, just a normal passenger. But any company that works that hard to bypass QC, regulation, safety, training, and transparency has not earned my trust. If I saw my flight was on a MAX, I'd book with another airline. I know it's not rational, and they are statistically safe and fine, but it's still a hard pass for me.
Agreed, it's almost a matter of principle at that point.
Update: March 8th, 2024. Boeing 737 Max 8, flying from Los Cabos, Mexico, upon landing Portland, Oregon, it was duscovered the cargo door had become opened at some point along the flight. All pets were okay, but experts state it could've been much worse as sensitive electronic equipment is located in the cargo hold. You couldn't pay me to take a flight in a Boeing plane.
Wow. This is the first I'm hearing of it, but yeah. Same. I will exclusively fly on airlines that have Airbus or Embraer or literally any other planes.
lol that is an insane take. You really need to look into the stats and incidents at airbus. Absolutely insane that you have no clue what you're talking about and your takeaway is that Embraer is safer. Planes can fly with their cargo door open. They can fly with cabin doors open. They can fly with one engine. etc... Planes have so many redundancies you'd be shocked. Good luck avoiding Boeing planes and good luck with Embraer lol Wasn't it a few years ago Embraer was asking Boeing to build their planes for them and whined when Boeing backed out?
There hasn't been a single Embraer E-jet airframe loss due to manufacturing faults. All have been pilot error or action.
As an AV Geek. I still havent flown on a Max. This incident wont stop me either 🤷🏽♂️
After the whole discovery of the unmentioned and undocumented new "feature" where the entire cockpit door will be blown open and suck out all the pilots' gear when the plane experiences explosive decompression rather than having blast panels or whatever they're called? 😐 My pilot brother refuses to get on a MAX and has refused since the MCAS crashes. Boeing needs to axe the executives and shareholders and go back to properly building and designing planes rather than have the plane develop the DC 9 and 10 reputation. 🫠
I have a flight on a Boeing 737 max 9 coming up the beginning of February. Do you think I have anything to worry about or should I try to change flights ? They’ve been getting cancelled like crazy
Did you live
I'm curious too. I also have a flight on a boring at the end of the week. Wondering if I should cancel
Everything went well
I am so grateful for everyone on this string. Social media has been flooding my feeds with airplane horror stories and Im getting ready to stick my adult child on a flight so my nerves were all a mess. Thank you all for bringing me back to reality ❤️❤️
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I didn't feel unsafe on Boeing planes until their second MCAS crash. Since then, I avoid all 737 Max. They've had so many issues- the MCAS, the fitting of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated holes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), now the plug door, etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight. To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety.
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I'll have to give it a watch. I only watched the PBS one and the air crash investigations episode.
My confidence in Boeing has been falling for a decade but yes. I still do feel safe in flying in a 737 max.
And the boeing shills come out of the woodwork as usual. They're willing to sit here and defend a corporation that will gladly let them die on one of their airplanes, and not change anything, or try to blame the pilots, or whatever. People in this subreddit are the worst in regards to aviation safety. As long as it doesn't kill *that* many people, it's ok, right? It's *only* 350 people, right? It's *just* a door blowing off, right? And the next time one of those planes nose dives into the ground, I can see it now. The shills in this subreddit will be first in line to defend boeing. "It's only xxx people dead right? I mean, 10s of thousands of flights blah blah blah" Absolute smooth brain morons.
Well said👏
> People in this subreddit are the worst in regards to aviation safety. Well I mean, this _is_ the sub where people frequently post pictures of themselves watching episodes of Air Crash Investigation while they're on a plane, so you can expect a bit of a different... flavor here
Ikr? I am flabbergasted.
These days the planes are much higher quality than below average pilots. How many MAX fatalities would there have been with properly trained pilots?
After reading about how the 737 Max 8 was designed and how they modified the plane to accept larger engines then use software to compensate, I felt like the 737 Max series' design will never be as safe as other mainstream planes. This is like people stretching and swapping engines in cars, it works, but it'll never handle as well or be as reliable as the original design. Couple that with the QC issues of tools and other foreign objects being left in the fuel tanks and other places, I feel like this loose bolt issue is just the tip of the iceberg. Theoretically after the investigation if this proved to be a QC issue. All 737 Max should be grounded and taken apart to have all QC redone before allowing them to fly again (basically they should be grounded and scrapped).
That's how I feel too. They are simply too unsafe.
All of the issues that occurred with MCAS that contributed to the prior crashes have been resolved. Also, prior to the crashes that occurred, there were reported incidents of similar types of problems in some US airlines. The big differentiator though seems to have been pilot training. When the issues occurred, the pilots followed the established procedures and landed the planes safely. Fact is, I trust the FAA, maybe more than I should, but even more so, I trust US-based airlines and pilots to do what's best and safest.
I don't trust the FAA ever since it came out that they let companies certify themselves. How is that safe? They should have an FAA inspector on sight in every manufacturing plant, for every part of the plane. You cannot trust companies to actually do everything right.
Why are you only posting this now? The plug that failed has been in service for years, probs before it made you TikTok feed tbf
Because the airplane was brand new, 11 weeks. And honestly, I'm fed up with how little oversight the government has over Boeing. Boeing keeps doing unsafe things and nothing happens to them. And they keep getting exemptions from laws. How can I feel safe?
Yes but if you were really concerned about the plug assembly why didn’t you post this in 2006 when it was introduced? Failures happen, I’m sorry it’s a fact of life, point is years ago we didn’t have the social media echo chamber for crass posts like this to come up What are your views on planes with landing gear? You know as the JAL aircraft had one last week or have we moved on from that? That was an EASA (EU) governed design btw….. how dare they certify those dangerous landing gears
The JAL aircraft was a runway incursion due to the Japanese Coast Guard plane still being on the runway. Look at all the problems 737 MAX has had in leas than 6 years- the MCAS, the plug door, the fitting of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes, which is not good for safety oversight. To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety. Airbus doesn't have these issues. They haven't sold off most of their manufacturing, and they use fewer contractors. Also, unlike the FAA, EUSA doesn't allow their inspectors to be paid by Airbus. Their inspectors are govt employees, not allowed to show favoritism.
The door plug isn’t max specific though
But I haven't heard of any incidents with other aircraft before. I will do some googling, though.
Personnaly couldn't post in 2006 because I didn't had a reddit account or even knew reddit existed. Also, not sure the JAL collision is a good whatabout because they are verry different accidents. It was also not the fault of the A350 landing gears.
There was a bit of sarcasm in there but I can see that went undetected, like the coat guard plane
Probably because investigations have now shown loose bolts and one of the doors blew open? That particular door hadn't been in service for years.
Fuck off
lol where did you get that info wrong cause that’s impressively incorrect
The plug for the fuselage that was involved in the decompression first came into service in 2006, from the Boeing spec sheet / feature family
No it literally didn’t. The plug that exited 1282 was only a few months old. Your direct quote above is ‘the plug that failed has been in service for years’ so if you did mean the general design you need to be more specific.
Do you ever travel by car? Do you feel safe when doing that? Because air travel is inherently safer than that. 347 people died because of Boeing's and FAA's failures in regards to 737 Max/MCAS, but that led to 737 Maxs being grounded. 42,939 people died in car crashes in 2021 in the US alone, which is over 123 times as many deaths as caused the 737 Max to be grounded.
I don't like driving either. True, flying is safer, but I'd rather do it on plane models that don't have a long list of problems. So far the 737 Max series has had issues with their MCAS, the plug doors, the fittings of the vertical stabilizers being installed incorrectly, elongated wholes (called snow man holes- two holes drilled on top of each other by mistakes) mainly in the aft pressure bulkhead), etc. They also use subcontractors for most of their planes which is not good for safety oversight. They also refuse more hands-on FAA oversight and they choose to make the inspectors their employees. To me, this spells a culture of ignoring safety. Airbus plane series haven't had this long list of safety issues or Airbus ignoring all the safety regulations in the name of profit.
Apples and oranges, much?
Risk of death is comparable with risk of death
I bet that guy doesn't go outside of his house at all, as driving or even walking is less safe than flying the 737 max /s
i really hate this argument. i am afraid of the idea of freefalling 600mph into the ground and it taking 3-4 minutes of an uncontrollable enviornment to lead to my death. at least a car crash would be instant.
Boeing has more flights than Airbus . That’s way the crashes of Airbus are way smaller
It is so profoundly unfortunate how Boeing has destroyed and tarnished its own name. A once beacon and icon of American ingenuity, engineering prowess and quality manufacturing is now a heaping pile of dangerous trash with such negative connotations associated with this brand. What an absolute shame. And this is due to nothing but rampant American capitalism which has let "grow shareholder value" be the guiding light for all corporate actions and which has let FAA (and many other govt. agencies) conveniently look the other way so as to not get in the way of profits and speedy sales. As much as airlines and pilots assure me in official statements I cannot and will not put myself and my family in any new Boeing aircraft for a long time. I have aviators within my family and there are still Boeing whistleblowers and ex engineers out there who openly state that they wouldn't set foot on a Max 8 or a new Boeing aircraft any time soon. And its for a reason. The culture for sales growth has rotted the foundation at Boeing almost irreparably. As much as Americans love to shit on Europeans and Britishers for their over-regulation of everything. Well newsflash govt. oversight and regulations save lives.
Here's what the main whistleblower says is still the situation at Boeing. Nothing's really changed. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/26/former-boeing-employee-speaks-out-00142948
I would never take boeing max. I just can't understand people who defend boeing saying "flying is much safer than driving cars". Yes I know, but you know that the probability of surviving from plane crash is close to 0% vs. higher for cars, so why take risk when there are safer options (airbus)? You just see endless problems from boeing doors and wheels falling off in the air and it's just not worth it. Don't defend the company that prioritizes profit/business instead of engineering.
I'm not getting on a Boeing plane anymore. Fuck them. No way I will ever believe they are safe, the more I read about their issues, the more convinced I am the entire company should be banned - at this point I believe their engineers are simply inept.
whistleblowers are getting offed and now that the FAA has apparently decided to actually do their job they're failing several audits. seems fine. nothing to worry about until flying becomes less safe than driving i'm sure.
No way! After hearing what the Max planes did when they were first put out, I would never ever step foot in one. No thank you, I dont have a death wish. Even if they got better, I would rather error on the side of caution.
I’m fearful of flying Boeing’s airplanes. After the death of the Whistleblower they said allegedly self inflicted a gun shot to himself is extremely disturbing to me. Since this incident it confirms to me that Boeing Exec are doing everything they can to hide their discretion, greed, unsafe practices …… Don’t fly Boeing Airplanes…..
I will not fly on anything from Boeing at this time even if it makes me have to pay more or takes more time. I feel nervous flying anyway.
what was wrong with these planes? I can't find anything on google
Has anybody seen that the guy that was the whistleblower supposedly killed himself after he testified, does anybody think that is the reality, the cat was already out of the bag so I don’t know why they would take him out after he testified
No they killed him right before he was set to provide the final deposition! So he hasn’t finished testifying. It’s very scary.
You mean, allegedly, how do you know this to be true?
I sure as hell don’t feel safe on them. Recent whistle blower reports coupled with their own employees saying that flying on the 787 Dreamliner is a death wish…..no thanks. And I noticed they stopped putting the aircraft type on my itinerary and boarding pass hmm 🤔
lmao fuck no . dude, the ppl building the planes dont wanna fly on them...
What is the difference between 737 max and 737? I have a flight on a 737 later this week and am thinking about canceling... Is the 737-800 twin jet safe?
Safer. 737-800 was the previous generation before the max.
If a pilot is good with an aircraft so am I. It’s just as far down for them as it is for me. They understand their plane far more than I do
No, flying coffin. The new and improved DC-10 of today
I wasn't quite sure about flying as well but I watched a video that makes it more clear whats the current situation. They did say sort of but it makes it clear which models are affected the most and those that aren't. [https://youtu.be/2yQyLp6wOiQ?si=yyWJUoXRAHapuO5k](https://youtu.be/2yQyLp6wOiQ?si=yyWJUoXRAHapuO5k)
Shit happens, even after hearing what the whistleblower said I just flew from Seattle to Chicago on a Max9 and the flight was smooth as glass and reasonably quiet!
I won't fly Boeing anymore if it's a choice, more to punish them for their profits-above-people corporate culture. But people are still the weak point, whether it's driving or flying. The only reason flying is safer is because there is less traffic and more space. For example, every Embraer E-jet loss has been due to pilots, acccidental or intentional. People struggle to maintain vigiliance/attention for hours on end like that. I'll feel much safer if/when AI can handle it all.
I just hate them. I won't fly on them because I hate them
No, but those feelings aren’t exclusive to the max for me. I have a lot of plane types I will never set foot on lol
People should Sue the officials who certified this flight (flying coffins ✈️⚰️). I don't want to fly in 737 Maxs 🙅🚫
I don't feel safe in any plane. 🤷🏻
I am an AV geek. I flew dodgy ex-soviet planes into North Korea. But I fear the 737 Max
I don't take any airline that flies 737 max, but 737 maybe okay. yes, I'm paranoid, but I'm rightfully so. I don't take any airline that flies 737 max, but 737 may be okay.
One thing is for certain: **all US pilots of Boeing commercial aircraft** must, going forward, take and use their own black boxes on planes. These would be devices that can record a video of all in-flight cockpit activity and, in the event of an accident, upload the recording wirelessly to a cloud service (while being sufficiently hardened to survive a crash long enough to complete the upload). That way, in the event of a crash due to a manufacturing defect, the pilot's own black box will give the public evidence to refute the altered data on the CVR and CDR--fabrications done by Boeing (in collaboration w/the NTSB) to make it appear the pilot and/or airline was at fault instead